I think the less meat we eat the more methane WE produce!

just speaking from personal experience ;)


And I don't know the Facts here but I believe meat isn't necessarily unhealthy its the quantity that most people eat that is the problem...... I like my dead animals....they taste good!

Beg your pardon, I KNOW what cabbage and beans do to ME!

Who eats cabbage, who eats beans. :)

90% ceasing to exist? You are more pessimistic than me, I put it at 80%.

A statement like this disqualifies anything else one might have to say. The man is a graduate from an Ivy League college with pretty good marks and a jet pilot to boot. That's no dummy.

Where is all that stolen oil? Why wouldn't we just have taken the oil in Kuwait? Or Mexico? Cuba? Argentina? Venezuela?

And then we are supposed to believe that some group can replace oil with a bunch of cesspools?

Imagine the fuss over the environmental impact reports there! We can't even build a Walmart!! That says nothing of the NIMBY crowd!


PLEASE!!!!!

Hi jhowelb,
It's called technology. Just think about all the saving in balance of payments if we didn't import all that oil. It would do great things for the economy. Probably cheaper too. I think the greenies would go along with it, I know I would. BTW, before the war started I saw an interview where a reporter asked Dick Cheney how we would pay for the war, he said with the oil we would take. I don't know why that hasn't come back to haunt him, I guess nobody but me paid any attention.
Take care,
xyzdonna

PS: He may be all the things you say but he's done some incredibly stupid things. We're in the middle of a war that should never have been fought. It's going to cost around a trillion dollars. Roughly $6,000 in debt he's put us for every man, woman and child in the country to fight this war. He's presided over the most massive shift in wealth in this nations history from the middle class over to the rich. He basically has had no energy policy in place. He's done nothing to make health care affordable. The dollar is worth about a third less since he took office. If you're worth less than 5 million dollars you're poorer now than when this clown took over. Trust me, when you put the biggest fool you can find in the oval office just because he blathers about religion, it's going to cost a great deal. Stupidity is very expensive!

First I'll preempt you by saying that The WMD WERE there and went with the help of the Ruskies to the Beqaa valley in Syria just before the action.

Pretty sharp strategy to put brackets around the #1 terror supporting nation on the face of the planet.

I'm surprised at your inability to count, after all the war is costing TRILLIONS!

Your health care is YOUR problem to finance. After all I have to buy my own oxygen, oxygen equipment, Foradil, Albuterol, air pumps, etc, etc!!

The lack of energy policy is due to your Dumbocrat friends standing in the way of real progress while screaming "The SKY is FALLING........er, I mean THE EARTH IS WARMING!

I'm doing quite well on disability, thank you and NO WAY I'm gonna trust YOU!

And the biggest fool ever was that cigar wielding fornicator in chief he replaced unless it would be the wicked witch of the West who is running now!

WHY am I not surprised to hear you blast religion? After YOU belong to the church of global warming!

You want to exchange insults? I'm a heavy weight in that department and in doing all this any possibility of civil discourse went out the window with YOUR politica barbs.

dems/clinton wiped out disablity for those who got hurt after 95. now lets plame one person for whats wrong. do you really think bush has the power. big money doesnt care whos the pres.the dems kill heath care and then say we will fix it. nothing ever gets fixed by any rep/dem. fuel from corn but not sugar and on and on. sugar fuel would give the island jobs and cash and keep the people there but no corn only.

First I'll preempt you by saying that The WMD WERE there and went with the help of the Ruskies to the Beqaa valley in Syria just before the action.

Pretty sharp strategy to put brackets around the #1 terror supporting nation on the face of the planet.

I'm surprised at your inability to count, after all the war is costing TRILLIONS!

Your health care is YOUR problem to finance. After all I have to buy my own oxygen, oxygen equipment, Foradil, Albuterol, air pumps, etc, etc!!

The lack of energy policy is due to your Dumbocrat friends standing in the way of real progress while screaming "The SKY is FALLING........er, I mean THE EARTH IS WARMING!

I'm doing quite well on disability, thank you and NO WAY I'm gonna trust YOU!

And the biggest fool ever was that cigar wielding fornicator in chief he replaced unless it would be the wicked witch of the West who is running now!

WHY am I not surprised to hear you blast religion? After YOU belong to the church of global warming!

You want to exchange insults? I'm a heavy weight in that department and in doing all this any possibility of civil discourse went out the window with YOUR politica barbs.

Hi jhowelb,
Why is it that conservatives hate Hillery so? I mean if I just mention it at the dinner table my sister acts like it would be the end of the world if she got in, I just don't understand what you guys are afraid of. She would work to make health care more affordable. She would try and balance the budget, something that the current imbicel in chief has totally. I thought conservatives were supposed to be about balancing the budget, what happened there?
xyzdonna

dems/clinton wiped out disablity for those who got hurt after 95. now lets plame one person for whats wrong. do you really think bush has the power. big money doesnt care whos the pres.the dems kill heath care and then say we will fix it. nothing ever gets fixed by any rep/dem. fuel from corn but not sugar and on and on. sugar fuel would give the island jobs and cash and keep the people there but no corn only.

Hi craigtx,
Corn, sugar, neither is optimal, think something that grows fast, is a simple organism and can out produce corn or sugar in productivity per acre. In a word,
algae.
xyzdonna

I can't speak for anyone other that myself.
I hate her because she is a COMMUNIST and as such is an enemy of the state. There are whole libraries about the short comings of MZ Klinton but mostly because she is part of the hate America first crowd.
ASK about my disability and the "progressives" who met me in the airport and poured unspeakable things into my open wounds. Believe this, hate does not express the feelings I have for the left, ALL of them and sleezebags like the Klintons are at the head of the parade.
Had enough of the flame jobs? I have lots more, plenty to go around! I've been nursing wounds for forty years and itching for some fool to pour it out on!

I can't speak for anyone other that myself.
I hate her because she is a COMMUNIST and as such is an enemy of the state. There are whole libraries about the short comings of MZ Klinton but mostly because she is part of the hate America first crowd.
ASK about my disability and the "progressives" who met me in the airport and poured unspeakable things into my open wounds. Believe this, hate does not express the feelings I have for the left, ALL of them and sleezebags like the Klintons are at the head of the parade.
Had enough of the flame jobs? I have lots more, plenty to go around! I've been nursing wounds for forty years and itching for some fool to pour it out on!
Hi jhowelb,
Forty years? Were you in Vietnam? Sorry about your infirmities. No, Hillery is not a communist. Funny you mention that, my idiot brother in law sprang that one on me, he's married to my sister, also an idiot. Not born that way, they just became deliberately stupid when they became religious conservatives. Why are conservatives so vitriolic? You know what's funny, you and I might sit down, have a beer, and have a good conversation. Here on the internet sometimes the animosity gets almost palpable. I do wish you well, and if a democrat gets in office, I guarantee you will be doing better, although I'm sure you'll hate it.
xyzdonna

Beg your pardon, I KNOW what cabbage and beans do to ME!

Dear jhowelb,

Personally, and I'm sure you do not wish to know, (but tough, I'm going to tell you anyway), I've never had any problems with cabbage. Extremely tasty vegetable. Boil in salted water until just less than crisp, drain and fry in butter and minced garlic for about a minute. Fabulous.

Beans and Brussel sprouts are a different story, but may well prove to be a vital energy source ( or evil planet destroyer). All a matter of taste...

Best wishes,

Martin

Somehow the one you call "idiot in chief" got elected president twice. Your charming velociraptor has yet to pull it off even once. If you want to know, I cringe every time she speaks; it's like fingernails on a chalkboard and I'm in third grade again. Here eyes get this crazy glint like some horror movie psycho spinster aunt just before she goes postal. Ever see "Misery" starring Kathleen Bates? Brrr...

Tit for tat, Donna. Frankly my views or your views on those matters don't belong here. Don't we have enough fun debating the topic at hand without interjecting partisanship? I've ignored it before thinking it was a temporary lapse of taste on your part but it seems to have acquired a chronic quality.

Mariss

Dear jhowelb,

Personally, and I'm sure you do not wish to know, (but tough, I'm going to tell you anyway), I've never had any problems with cabbage. Extremely tasty vegetable. Boil in salted water until just less than crisp, drain and fry in butter and minced garlic for about a minute. Fabulous.

Beans and Brussel sprouts are a different story, but may well prove to be a vital energy source ( or evil planet destroyer). All a matter of taste...

Best wishes,

Martin

Why, not at all! I have no problem with cabbage no matter how it is prepared. It's all those other folks around me who begin to gag, choke and run for the exits!

Donna, I see how it is. So sad for you that anyone who does not agree with you is an idiot. The world is just full of them and the dummies just won't listen and learn from you. What a shame, but maybe, just maybe it's your eyesight. Or maybe you just need to open them. "Progressive" is code for socialist which is equal to communist.

Hopefully one day you'll be able to recognize the sunlight.

Why, not at all! I have no problem with cabbage no matter how it is prepared. It's all those other folks around me who begin to gag, choke and run for the exits!

.

Dear jhowelb,

LOL. Thanks for that.

BTW, probably best not to elaborate...(more LOL)

Best wishes,

Martin

Somehow the one you call "idiot in chief" got elected president twice. Your charming velociraptor has yet to pull it off even once. If you want to know, I cringe every time she speaks; it's like fingernails on a chalkboard and I'm in third grade again. Here eyes get this crazy glint like some horror movie psycho spinster aunt just before she goes postal. Ever see "Misery" starring Kathleen Bates? Brrr...

Tit for tat, Donna. Frankly my views or your views on those matters don't belong here. Don't we have enough fun debating the topic at hand without interjecting partisanship? I've ignored it before thinking it was a temporary lapse of taste on your part but it seems to have acquired a chronic quality.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
Et tu Mariss, are you a conservative too? I'm sorry, I didn't know. I thought your replys were well thought out, succinct, brilliant actually. I thought you expressed yourself well, I never knew you were one of them. I guess I just wasn't paying close enough attention. OK, point well taken, I'll leave my politics out of it. Now let's get on with it, how can we reverse the damage that's been done?
xyzdonna

You CAN'T! Man didn't do the damage and you can't change the course of nature! Arrogance at it's utmost!

Hi Mariss,
Et tu Mariss, are you a conservative too? I'm sorry, I didn't know. I thought your replys were well thought out, succinct, brilliant actually. I thought you expressed yourself well, I never knew you were one of them. ....

I was going to be noble and stay aloof from all this pettiness but I am weak. You really are a condescending twit. I am a conservative too although I don't belong to any political party. It is people like me, Mariss, jhowelb and other 'conservatives' who keep our modern society humming so you and other liberal minded drones can have a comfortable lifestyle well above what you deserve for your ability and effort.

Donna, thank you for the left-handed compliment. It says in your world only liberals are intelligent, well-meaning and good; it seems to be beyond your imagination to allow that others who don't feel as you might happen to share those same human qualities with you. It's sad to have such a strictured and exclusionary opinion of other people. I have always believed you to be a good, kind and intelligent person every bit as I am and I know your beliefs and political disposition. I'm sad yet unsurprised to see a liberal who does not give in return what they rightly ask for themselves. Respect, consideration and kindness from and towards all human beings.

What also cheeses me off is your stereotyping Conservative = Religious. I haven't had a religious sentiment in 50 years and lightning will strike me dead were I ever to set foot in a church. I don't put you in a box, don't you put me in a box. That's a stereotype of the most ignorant kind.

There. Now we can move on, Brutus.

Mariss

jhowelb,

You more than anyone here deserves honor and respect. You fought for our country while I 40 years ago did everything possible to duck my responsibility. I was 19 then and that is my only excuse. To my everlasting shame you went and did in my place what I should have done. My daughter and son-in-law are both 2nd Lieutenants in the Army. My daughter saw the awesome responsibility to defend what we have at age 20 while I didn't. She had the option of being a rich man's daughter but she saw more purpose in life than that. Both she and her husband deploy to Iraq in March. I know in my heart both will be well and I honor them both for having the character I failed to have when I was their age. I fear for them both but I believe in them and trust, father to daughter, father to son-in-law, both will be OK when they come out the other side.

Don't worry about this new generation. They are different from the '60s one.

Mariss

I am humbled, sir and stand before you with tears in my eyes. Tears for remembering once again the physical pain and the anguish of the rejection by my countrymen. Tears for the contortions that brought me to vent in public and the embarrassment it caused me. Tears also for the young folks in your life who are at present in harms way.

Please relate to them my gratitude for giving me the gift of a few more day of freedom, for without kids like them we would surely fall hard.

Fighting comes as second nature to an old warrior but I'm beginning to tire of it. Every day there is another looney ploy to destroy the way of life my brothers at arms died to protect. Attack Christmas, marriage, the family unit, ad nauseum!

I am sorry, my first impulse was correct, to ignore that person.

Please continue your discussion.

wow!.....


wow!

thread devolved quickly into insults and name calling......

Hurray for Mariss for being eloquent enough not to devolve.... me i probably would be insulting too but Mariss did such a good job I can say no more!

x

jhowelb,

My respect goes to you. When I was young I was foolish. I have grown up since then. You went in my place and I am ashamed for that. My girl child will do what her dad didn't many years ago. The roots of the movement xyzmoddana and ilk believes in cannot be forgotten and cannot be forgiven. They spat on you.

You are not alone. You are less alone today given the new generation. They honor what you sacrificed.

Contact me off-list. You are on the CNCzone because you do CNC stuff. I design and peddle wares. I would be honored if I could give you something in return for what you have given. Life must be fair or it's our obligation to make it so.

Mariss

jhowelb, while I did not serve in Nam, I did serve. It was not as honorable back then, but I was in the Guard and would have never been drafted because of my high draft numbers. I can tell you this for a fact. If anyone will go to DC and stand in front of that long black wall with an honest heart, they will leave in tears. I tear up now thinking about it. Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

Mike

Hi Donna,

Please see my sig line!:D That is what "religeous conservatives" are really all about. Serving others. Hmmmm, that doesn't sound like too bad a person to me. If you will take the time to check, you will find that religeous conservatives actually do much more to help their fellow man than the tongue waggers! Since you opened religon up, let me paraphase a little from the dreadded Book!

1 John, ch. 3

"13 Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you.

14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. "

So.......I am not surprised by hatred because of who I am or whom I serve.

Hey Mariss, you may not have religeous thoughts, but you can't escape the fact that you practice the principle laid out in these verses! Good on you!

Mike

I was going to be noble and stay aloof from all this pettiness but I am weak. You really are a condescending twit. I am a conservative too although I don't belong to any political party. It is people like me, Mariss, jhowelb and other 'conservatives' who keep our modern society humming so you and other liberal minded drones can have a comfortable lifestyle well above what you deserve for your ability and effort.
Hi Geof,
Well, you have to say something good about my politics. At least it got jhowelb back talking to me and pretty much united the list in flaming me. Let me say that I respect his service as well, he risked his life for his country and that is laudable. I think the reason I brought politics into the discussion is because conservatives seem almost completely united in rejecting any lifestyle changes that might help with the global warming problem. Even to the point of denying that there is a problem that we can fix.
I'm with Al Gore, I think we should recognize the problem and move toward a solution. As things get worse, and I believe they will, more people will recognize what is happening. My brother in law, the moron, made the comment recently, "surly you don't believe in that do you". Shoot, even my sister, his wife and a former science teacher believes in global warming. I will say though as a religious conservative she doesn't believe in evolution! How she could teach science and not recognize the validity of evolution I just don't know. But that's why I injected politics into the discussion, people seem to have a closed mind when they are of a conservative bent.
I'm a granola crunching liberal, to use Johns phrasology. With an open mind that seeks solutions wherever that takes us. I don't have the science or engineering background that some of you do, but I've found that looking at the world as it really is makes up for a lot of that. I see things teleologically, that is with the end purpose in mind.
xyzdonna

Donna, thank you for the left-handed compliment. It says in your world only liberals are intelligent, well-meaning and good; it seems to be beyond your imagination to allow that others who don't feel as you might happen to share those same human qualities with you. It's sad to have such a strictured and exclusionary opinion of other people. I have always believed you to be a good, kind and intelligent person every bit as I am and I know your beliefs and political disposition. I'm sad yet unsurprised to see a liberal who does not give in return what they rightly ask for themselves. Respect, consideration and kindness from and towards all human beings.

What also cheeses me off is your stereotyping Conservative = Religious. I haven't had a religious sentiment in 50 years and lightning will strike me dead were I ever to set foot in a church. I don't put you in a box, don't you put me in a box. That's a stereotype of the most ignorant kind.

There. Now we can move on, Brutus.

Mariss

Sorry Mariss,
Just trying to inject a little humor into the discussion, I see it wasn't well taken. People take their politics and religion seriously. I am, like you a kind person who is respectful of others. Since this is such a serious issue I'll forgo the politics and religion since it seems to enrage everyone so much. I didn't put you in the religious-conservative box however. I caught your previous post about not being religious. You have to realize I come from the bible belt, the south east where religion is rampant. BTW, I do go to church almost every Sunday. But it's a liberal church, with me it's more of a social thing.

Quoting you:It's sad to have such a strictured and exclusionary opinion of other people. I have always believed you to be a good, kind and intelligent person every bit as I am and I know your beliefs and political disposition. I'm sad yet unsurprised to see a liberal who does not give in return what they rightly ask for themselves. Respect, consideration and kindness from and towards all human beings.

I think you misjudge me. John is my friend and he thinks much like you, in spite of his disdain for the exponential functions you used. He's very conservative. My whole family is conservative, I'm inundated with conservatism. If I didn't tolerate conservatism I would hardly have any friends at all. I will point out that conservatives are almost perfectly united in rejecting any rational fixes to this global warming problem. They will cling to their lifestyle religiously, like a fetish that must be maintained at all costs. I'm perfectly willing to forgo a Hummer and drive a smaller car if that will help. My next vehicle will probably run on natural gas. I'm willing to make the lifestyle changes that we all should.
xyzdonna

Hi Donna,

Please see my sig line!:D That is what "religeous conservatives" are really all about. Serving others. Hmmmm, that doesn't sound like too bad a person to me. If you will take the time to check, you will find that religeous conservatives actually do much more to help their fellow man than the tongue waggers! Since you opened religon up, let me paraphase a little from the dreadded Book!

1 John, ch. 3

"13 Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you.

14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. "

So.......I am not surprised by hatred because of who I am or whom I serve.

Hey Mariss, you may not have religeous thoughts, but you can't escape the fact that you practice the principle laid out in these verses! Good on you!

Mike

Hi turmite,
I'm not really anti-religious, just a bit agnostic. Religious people do many good things and my hat's off to you. But I've done what I do best, totally offended almost everyone.
xyzdonna

jhowelb,

My respect goes to you. When I was young I was foolish. I have grown up since then. You went in my place and I am ashamed for that. My girl child will do what her dad didn't many years ago. The roots of the movement xyzmoddana and ilk believes in cannot be forgotten and cannot be forgiven. They spat on you.

You are not alone. You are less alone today given the new generation. They honor what you sacrificed.

Contact me off-list. You are on the CNCzone because you do CNC stuff. I design and peddle wares. I would be honored if I could give you something in return for what you have given. Life must be fair or it's our obligation to make it so.

Mariss

Now Mariss,
Don't do me like I did you.
:) Pidgeon hole me into a being a liberal and thereby thinking you can extrapolate my views on all things. I'm not of the ilk that is totally disdainful of the military. I lost a friend in Vietnam and one of my best friends was a helecopter pilot in the war. Fortunately he got busted for pot mid way along and was grounded and survived the conflict. Otherwise he might have been killed.
I am however, disdainful of the political idiocy that got us into that war as well as this one. That said I'll move on from politics and religion. But I do honor the service of your daughter and son-in-law as well as that of jhowelb.
I also recognize the need for the military, it just needs to be led by a commander in chief who is rational.
xyzdonna

Hi turmite,
I'm not really anti-religious, just a bit agnostic. Religious people do many good things and my hat's off to you. But I've done what I do best, totally offended almost everyone.
xyzdonna


Donna if you are thinking I was offended, no worries. It takes a lot to offend me. On the other hand, it would probably be real easy for me to offend, simply because I live by a very narrow set of rules......so to speak, you know, I'm right and you're wrong rules. The truth is, I have not been given a mandate to change anyone, only tell.

May I comment on a statement that was made earlier about Hillary being communist and get your feedback? Well I already know I can get your feedback because I have read this thread!:)

Do you remember when Hillary said in her famous speech " it takes a village" in reference to "all" of us raising the children of the US? Doesn't that sound communal (sp)? Isn't that the root word of communist? All things common? Well, I should have said most things common. You realize that nothing was common in any communist government at any time in history don't you, yet the socialist form of government she espouses is nothing more or less than communisum.

One last note for you reading pleasure. Just so you know, there are conservative christians that believe in global warming. We do however believe it is coming about totally different than what is being promoted by the G/W community. Though you are agnostic, take the time to read the last book in the Bible. It speaks very clearly of a time that sounds exactly like what is being told will happen if our atmosphere is damaged too much. Actually just read Revelation 16: 8-9......sounds like global warming to me.

Mike

Donna if you are thinking I was offended, no worries. It takes a lot to offend me. On the other hand, it would probably be real easy for me to offend, simply because I live by a very narrow set of rules......so to speak, you know, I'm right and you're wrong rules. The truth is, I have not been given a mandate to change anyone, only tell.

May I comment on a statement that was made earlier about Hillary being communist and get your feedback? Well I already know I can get your feedback because I have read this thread!:)

Do you remember when Hillary said in her famous speech " it takes a village" in reference to "all" of us raising the children of the US? Doesn't that sound communal (sp)? Isn't that the root word of communist? All things common? Well, I should have said most things common. You realize that nothing was common in any communist government at any time in history don't you, yet the socialist form of government she espouses is nothing more or less than communisum.

One last note for you reading pleasure. Just so you know, there are conservative christians that believe in global warming. We do however believe it is coming about totally different than what is being promoted by the G/W community. Though you are agnostic, take the time to read the last book in the Bible. It speaks very clearly of a time that sounds exactly like what is being told will happen if our atmosphere is damaged too much. Actually just read Revelation 16: 8-9......sounds like global warming to me.

Mike

Hi turmite,
No, I don't think Hillery is communist, just a little liberal. She has the idea that we should all have a level playing field when it comes to access to health care and the like. I don't think you have anything to fear if she is elected, this country is very resilient. After all, it looks like we will soon have survived 8 of the Bush administration, we can survive anything. It just needs a new direction. Her reference to "it takes a villege" was simply her way of saying we all must work together, liberal, conservative, Christian, jew. The problems are not intractable but first you have to recognize that there is a problem, that it can be fixed (maybe) and we should all work together toward this goal. But we'd better get off of politics. I'll look up your verse in Revelation and get back to you.
What is the G/W community?
BTW, I'm very familiar with the interpretation of Christians that we are in the last days. My whole family is radical right wing conservative Christian. So I've been informed by my mother that she'll soon be flapping off to heaven and she only hopes I'll be coming too when the rapture happens. I've also been banned from speaking of politics at family get togethers. Many of my friends are devout Christians, I accept and honor their beliefs. Myself, I just don't know.
xyzdonna

All these discussions are getting very tiresome. While we argue here, the governments around the world have started the ball rolling on getting something done about global warming. And all I can say is, thank god for that. Hopefully in the very near future, I hope to be driving a car that pollute the air less and technologies that give me a nicer environment to live in. Then my worries about the coming Armageddon will cease and I can have a normal blood pressure reading. Cheers guys for an interesting read.:banana:

jhowelb,

My respect goes to you. When I was young I was foolish. I have grown up since then. You went in my place and I am ashamed for that. My girl child will do what her dad didn't many years ago. The roots of the movement xyzmoddana and ilk believes in cannot be forgotten and cannot be forgiven. They spat on you.

You are not alone. You are less alone today given the new generation. They honor what you sacrificed.

Contact me off-list. You are on the CNCzone because you do CNC stuff. I design and peddle wares. I would be honored if I could give you something in return for what you have given. Life must be fair or it's our obligation to make it so.

Mariss

Mariss,
My words must be chosen carefully least they be misunderstood, if I'm clumsy with them please for give me. For so many years I could not and did not want to speak of the things I experienced so it is still hard.

Not all of us were cut out to be soldiers, some part of me would argue that none were. However, some should never have been there. My group was all volunteers and among them was one who always seemed to be out of step. It seemed that it was alway he who was in the way when stuff hit the fan and I always tried to help him.

When my "trip" came up and they asked for volunteers I stepped forward and he was right behind me. I tried very hard to dissuade him from going but he was compelled. He was the first to go down. Before it was over, they all went down. All that is but me. And I have carried guilt for it since.

Never would I fault anyone for choosing not to step into the jaws. There are other ways to serve your fellow man and you have found a way to do it admirably with your products and with your sterling presence here. Deeds and bearing make a truly religious man, turmite is correct in that.

My pride won't allow me to accept any sort of gift from you under these conditions. I do use your 203V and have fallen in love with it. I need to purchase one more and will do so in the near future.

There is a Marine writing in a thread who is in a wheel chair and trying to piece together a cnc router. I have offered him some steppers that I can't use and have been promoting other to help him. He is across the country from me so I can't show up at his door and pitch in, so to speak. I would be delighted if you could manage to help him, he deserves it and needs it as he is trying to raise a family. His thread is http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46420

Your words have done so much more for me than you could know. I guess what I'm trying to say is, thank you.

All these discussions are getting very tiresome. While we argue here, the governments around the world have started the ball rolling on getting something done about global warming. And all I can say is, thank god for that. Hopefully in the very near future, I hope to be driving a car that pollute the air less and technologies that give me a nicer environment to live in. Then my worries about the coming Armageddon will cease and I can have a normal blood pressure reading. Cheers guys for an interesting read.:banana:

What they are getting ready to do is drop the hammer on you and enslave you and to make you grateful for it. It's a scam, a power play to control every small detail of your life.

For Gods sake, the Ice Age broke 10,000 years ago and thank God for it! I look forward to growing cotton on the north slope in Alaska!

What they are getting ready to do is drop the hammer on you and enslave you and to make you grateful for it. It's a scam, a power play to control every small detail of your life.

For Gods sake, the Ice Age broke 10,000 years ago and thank God for it! I look forward to growing cotton on the north slope in Alaska!
Hi jhowelb,
alexccmeister is in Brunei, he isn't affected by our politics. At least not directly.
xyzdonna

Hi jhowelb,
alexccmeister is in Brunei, he isn't affected by our politics. At least not directly.
xyzdonna

Open your eyes, this movement is global as is their intended conquest.

As things get worse, and I believe they will, more people will recognize what is happening. My brother in law, the moron, made the comment recently, "surly you don't believe in that do you". Shoot, even my sister, his wife and a former science teacher believes in global warming. I will say though as a religious conservative she doesn't believe in evolution! How she could teach science and not recognize the validity of evolution I just don't know. But that's why I injected politics into the discussion, people seem to have a closed mind when they are of a conservative bent.

Your definition of a closed mind again seams like anyone who dosn't agree with you.... I think someone already covered it in this thread, thanks for proving them right.

don't believe in global warming to the extent that we can do anything to stop it = closed minded..... got it... i am really clear on your definition now...



ll these discussions are getting very tiresome. While we argue here, the governments around the world have started the ball rolling on getting something done about global warming. And all I can say is, thank god for that. Hopefully in the very near future, I hope to be driving a car that pollute the air less and technologies that give me a nicer environment to live in. Then my worries about the coming Armageddon will cease and I can have a normal blood pressure reading. Cheers guys for an interesting read.

I guess you don't pay attention to well to most governments... they only do two things they do exceedingly well, one is take your money, and two, take your rights!

Well the GW thing will surely take your money, And you will certainly loose some more of your rights to stop this pending doom!

But please don't expect much more than that, because man is but a flee and the back of the behemoth and we certainly didn't start the GW and we will most assuredly not fix it!

Your definition of a closed mind again seams like anyone who dosn't agree with you.... I think someone already covered it in this thread, thanks for proving them right.

don't believe in global warming to the extent that we can do anything to stop it = closed minded..... got it... i am really clear on your definition now...



Hi miljnor,
I don't recall saying anything like that. I'm not saying that someone who disagrees with me is closed minded. Nor am I saying that someone who disagrees with me is wrong. They may, just possibly be right and I may be wrong. Not likely, but a possibility. I do have an open mind, but I don't have a hole in my head. No one can say for certain whether or not we can stop or reverse global warming because we don't know what the players are going to do. The countries out there may realize there is a problem and start to fix it. Or China or India or both, may say "we don't care, we're going to keep on anyway, we didn't start this problem so we're not going to sacrifice to fix it. Your country, (the USA) didn't sign the Kyoto accord so why should we worry?" The outcome is indeterminate. Too many variables that we don't know the answer to. But I will say this, when you have all these people playing ostrich and ignoring or pretending that it's not happening, then you have problems because it's harder to build a political consensus to take action.
xyzdonna

For My Democrat Friends:

"Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. We also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the generally accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere, and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishes.

By accepting these greetings you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

For My Republican Friends:



Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

For My Democrat Friends:

"Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. We also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the generally accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere, and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishes.

By accepting these greetings you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

For My Republican Friends:



Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

you crack me up! Thanks for a laugh...sure you aren't a lawyer?

calling or implying someone a lawyer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is just mean!!

Ya know the Liars Club Hall of Fame All Time Winner?
A guy went walking in Alaska when it was so cold he spotted a lawyer with his hands in his OWN pockets!

Ya know the Liars Club Hall of Fame All Time Winner?
A guy went walking in Alaska when it was so cold he spotted a lawyer with his hands in his OWN pockets!

Yeah, he musta been snow-blind :)

xyzdonna,

It's curious what's going on here. When things get curious I go to Oz as in The Wizard of Oz. In Oz there is the wicked witch of the East and the good witch of the West. I'm the wicked witch of the East. I use reason and fact why certain things can or cannot be. I don't make them up, they are facts.

You on the other hand are the good witch of the West. You come up with studies, articles and posts you hope will counteract what I calculated. You have a magic wand and you believe waving it will dispel the my evil magic. I admire your pluckiness to try; it must be an enormous effort in researching the stuff you post. You come up with try after try hoping something you post will change things and Oz will be what you want it to be.

Well, it's no use. We don't live in Oz and reality is not a movie. Hard physical reality governs the real world. You have never come to terms with there are some things you cannot change no matter how hard you wish or try. You really believe if you wish hard enough things will be like what you'd like. You believe Nature can be gotten around if your argument is persuasive enough.

I calculated solar energy as too weak and feeble to supply what we need for energy. You are liberal which means you don't believe in limits and facts. You believe in Camelot. Your mindset causes you to endlessly find articles and studies that all in essence say 2 + 2 = 5. You really believe there is an answer out there that will violate Nature's laws. It is tiresome for me to bother disproving each instance once you know the underlying principle's limits.

This is not an accusation but rather what to do when you know what can and cannot work. Solar anything cannot work. Ethanol, biodeisel, algae oil, wind farms, hydroelectric, you name it are all solar energies. Do something else instead. Encourage the use of fossil fuels like oil, coal and natural gas. Past that, encourage the use of nuclear energy.

Mariss

Mariss I agree solar cannot work.With current technology there is not enough surface area on the planet for wind farms or solar collectors.Ethanol!!What!!We are going to use corn to power our cars so people in poor countries can starve?Mexico had huge protests about the price of corn going up as a result of supply and demand, fueled by the ethanol plants.
Mariss,how about some SMPS designs?It would help a little.
Larry

xyzdonna,

It's curious what's going on here. When things get curious I go to Oz as in The Wizard of Oz. In Oz there is the wicked witch of the East and the good witch of the West. I'm the wicked witch of the East. I use reason and fact why certain things can or cannot be. I don't make them up, they are facts.

You on the other hand are the good witch of the West. You come up with studies, articles and posts you hope will counteract what I calculated. You have a magic wand and you believe waving it will dispel the my evil magic. I admire your pluckiness to try; it must be an enormous effort in researching the stuff you post. You come up with try after try hoping something you post will change things and Oz will be what you want it to be.

Well, it's no use. We don't live in Oz and reality is not a movie. Hard physical reality governs the real world. You have never come to terms with there are some things you cannot change no matter how hard you wish or try. You really believe if you wish hard enough things will be like what you'd like. You believe Nature can be gotten around if your argument is persuasive enough.

I calculated solar energy as too weak and feeble to supply what we need for energy. You are liberal which means you don't believe in limits and facts. You believe in Camelot. Your mindset causes you to endlessly find articles and studies that all in essence say 2 + 2 = 5. You really believe there is an answer out there that will violate Nature's laws. It is tiresome for me to bother disproving each instance once you know the underlying principle's limits.

This is not an accusation but rather what to do when you know what can and cannot work. Solar anything cannot work. Ethanol, biodeisel, algae oil, wind farms, hydroelectric, you name it are all solar energies. Do something else instead. Encourage the use of fossil fuels like oil, coal and natural gas. Past that, encourage the use of nuclear energy.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
I'm not disputing your math and I appreciate that you took 2 hours out of your Sunday to run the numbers. I have come around to your contention that nuclear is a way to go. I was not always of this mindset. John, my nuclear engineering friend, has told me it can be done safely and cleanly like the French do. So you see I'm open minded and amenable to change. If, as you say, it can't work then I'll go on to something else. That said I still think biodiesel is viable.
However, you reduced the yield per acre as a starting point when you ran the numbers. I don't think we know that, the research is in its infancy. While you may be right that biodiesel won't yield the theoretical 15,000 gal per acre it might yield 5,000. This is quite a bit more than your starting point if I recall, of less than 1,000 gal per acre.
Let me quote from the article:
Further, these yield estimates are based on what is theoretically achievable - roughly 15,000 gallons per acre-year. It's important to point out that the DOE's ASP that projected that such yields are possible, was never able to come close to achieving such yields. Their focus on open ponds was a primary factor in this, and the research groups that have picked up where the DOE left off are making substantial gains in the yields compared to the old DOE work - but we still have a ways to go. But, consider that even if we are only able to sustain an average yield of 5,000 gallons per acre-year in algae systems spread across the US, the amount of land required would still only be 28.5 million acres - a mere fraction still of the total farmland area in the US.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
The question becomes what will the yield per acre turn out to be. The guy writing the article seems to think 5,000 gal per acre is achievable with closed ponds as opposed to open ones. Bear in mind that diesel engines are also about 40% more efficient than gas engines. Also remember that the technology is carbon neutral, the carbon you burn back into the air was extracted while the algae grew. I don't question your math, just the assumption of yield per acre that you started with.
And BTW, you're not the first person that's called me a witch, only the first person who's called me a good witch. LOL.

Take care,
xyzdonna

/quote 2 + 2= 5 /endquote

I can prove that!

2 = 1 + 1
2^2= (1+1)^2
2^2= 1^2 + 1^2 +2*(1 + 1)
4 = 1 + 1 + 2 + 2
4 = 2 + 4
4 = 6
2= 3
2+2 = 3+2
2 = 5

hehe :)

This will explain it all in a story that all can understand.


A turkey was chatting with a bull.
"I would love to be able to get to the top of that tree," sighed the
turkey, "but I haven't got the energy."
-
"Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?" replied the bull.
They're packed with nutrients."
The turkey pecked at a lump of dung, and found it actually gave him
enough strength to reach the lowest branch of the tree.
The next day, after eating some more dung, he reached the second branch.
Finally after a fourth night, the turkey was proudly perched at the top
of the tree.
-
He was promptly spotted by a farmer, who shot him out of the tree.
-
Moral of the story:
Bull **** might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there..


****************************
It won't create utopia either!!

Not to change the subject, but we had a couple more feet of global warming in the mountains this last weekend...

(nuts)

No kidding and I think Calif is having a record cold this year! Its like mountain weather in the snow... only no beautiful white stuff!

Yup, see the picture.

I can hear it already, "One day or one storm doesn't prove......it only reinforces the point that turbulent......the cold from the North migrates.....yada, yada, yada!"

Mariss I agree solar cannot work.With current technology there is not enough surface area on the planet for wind farms or solar collectors.Ethanol!!What!!We are going to use corn to power our cars so people in poor countries can starve?Mexico had huge protests about the price of corn going up as a result of supply and demand, fueled by the ethanol plants.
Mariss,how about some SMPS designs?It would help a little.
Larry

Of course it would help, every bit as much a band-aid would have helped with the hole in the Titanic. The problem with "It would help a little" is it's symbolic. Doing something symbolic makes people feel better because they are doing something. Doing something symbolic doesn't measurably affect the outcome; the scales are orders of magnitude different.

Mariss

xyzdonna,

I used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel as a source for theoretical versus actual yields for algae biodiesel fuel. I have a pessimistic bias towards believing actual numbers instead of theoretically possible ones. An undemonstrated claim gives insight about what is being proposed, particularly when the difference between actual and theoretical is so vast. It indicates there are unresolved problems being glossed over that may or may not be solvable.

Mariss

I read the http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html article. There is a little sleight of hand going on. The good author uses the 15,000 gal/acre/yr number to get his encouraging results. The demonstrated number (the kind of number you can bank on), is less than 1,000 gal/acre/yr.

Mariss

xyzdonna,

I used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel as a source for theoretical versus actual yields for algae biodiesel fuel. I have a pessimistic bias towards believing actual numbers instead of theoretically possible ones. An undemonstrated claim gives insight about what is being proposed, particularly when the difference between actual and theoretical is so vast. It indicates there are unresolved problems being glossed over that may or may not be solvable.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
Yes, I thought those numbers looked like the ones I found in Wikipedia as well. You are using numbers that can be plugged in and used today. The author of the report you read used numbers that might possibly be valid after much research. If memory serves your supposition was around 800 gal/acre/year. He's using the 5,000 gal/acre/year. That is quite a difference and would make or break the concept. If it should be possible to get 5,000 gal then the concept would work, if your number proves to be the upper limit of the yield then I agree, it might not be workable. It just depends on how the real world yield jibes with whose numbers. So the current answer is maybe, might work, might not. I think the jury's still out. But it just might be possible. Call me polyanna if you like but I still have hope. Remember, algae are very efficient at converting sunlight into oil. Admittedly I don't know the science but I can do the math as long as it's not calculus.
We'll see, take care,
xyzdonna

........but I can do the math as long as it's not calculus.We'll see, take care,
xyzdonna

Dear fellow sufferer Donna...

Integration, differentiation????????

You bring back nightmares. Please stop, and stick to trig.

Best wishes

Martin

Hi Mariss,
Yes, I thought those numbers looked like the ones I found in Wikipedia as well. You are using numbers that can be plugged in and used today. The author of the report you read used numbers that might possibly be valid after much research. If memory serves your supposition was around 800 gal/acre/year. He's using the 5,000 gal/acre/year. That is quite a difference and would make or break the concept. If it should be possible to get 5,000 gal then the concept would work, if your number proves to be the upper limit of the yield then I agree, it might not be workable. It just depends on how the real world yield jibes with whose numbers. So the current answer is maybe, might work, might not. I think the jury's still out. But it just might be possible. Call me polyanna if you like but I still have hope. Remember, algae are very efficient at converting sunlight into oil. Admittedly I don't know the science but I can do the math as long as it's not calculus.
We'll see, take care,
xyzdonna

xyzDonna...

You are an insufferable TWIT! Why Mariss or Geof puts up with you is beyond me. You have " a pessimistic bias towards believing actual numbers instead of theoretically possible ones." Are you ****ing RETARDED? You have a problem dealing with reality, because theoretical possibilities give you warm fuzzies! Shut your blathering, rhetorical green-speak vomiting hell-oracle up already. You are beyond help. You should be sat in a corner with a dunce hat and handed a sock puppet. You infuriate me with your semi-pedantic patter. You trust Wikipedia for christ's sakes? Where any MORON with a keyboard, a monitor and a mouse can edit the living **** out of an entry? Well, by all means, it must be CORRECT! Can't you try to pull your head out of your ass? The air must be stale and fetid by now, I would think you could do with a good breath of fresh air, might wake you the **** up!

Dear WYLD,
Please quit being so shy and retiring. Tell us what you really think. (HAAAA..snarf....snark..choke!! }:-)

Seems GW/CC aint playin too well in Peoria! (neither the "cure")

Dear fellow sufferer Donna...

Integration, differentiation????????

You bring back nightmares. Please stop, and stick to trig.

Best wishes

Martin

Absolutely Martin,
As I said before, I had to repeat every course in calculus I took. Engineering types like Mariss eat differential equations for lunch. But unless you're doing research into something like quantum mechanics you can solve everything with algebra, geometry and trig. The one thing calculus did for me was to burn lower math into my brain, I never did grasp the calculus, but the effort made all that came before stick quite well.
Have a good holiday Martin,
xyzdonna

Dear WYLD,
Please quit being so shy and retiring. Tell us what you really think. (HAAAA..snarf....snark..choke!! }:-)

Seems GW/CC aint playin too well in Peoria! (neither the "cure")

I know it was ungentlemanly, but eventually I begin to gag when I have to hold back for the sake of political correctness. I'd rather vent than vomit. But I'm glad you got a laugh out of it. :)

xyzDonna...

You are an insufferable TWIT! Why Mariss or Geof puts up with you is beyond me. You have " a pessimistic bias towards believing actual numbers instead of theoretically possible ones." Are you ****ing RETARDED? You have a problem dealing with reality, because theoretical possibilities give you warm fuzzies! Shut your blathering, rhetorical green-speak vomiting hell-oracle up already. You are beyond help. You should be sat in a corner with a dunce hat and handed a sock puppet. You infuriate me with your semi-pedantic patter. You trust Wikipedia for christ's sakes? Where any MORON with a keyboard, a monitor and a mouse can edit the living **** out of an entry? Well, by all means, it must be CORRECT! Can't you try to pull your head out of your ass? The air must be stale and fetid by now, I would think you could do with a good breath of fresh air, might wake you the **** up!

Hi WYLD,
My my, aren't we vitriolic and uptight! Take a look at the last century, I can remember when cars came from the factory getting about 10 or 12 MPG. Now those same vehicles get 18 to 20. It's called advanced technology, the result of research and development that yields new and improved results. The numbers from Wikipedia are good, I've validated them from other sources. Also, when you're dealing with biological phenomena the potential for improvement is enormous. Biological entities are incredibly efficient at converting sunlight into protoplasm. After all, they've had millions of years to evolve and perfect their metabolism. Perhaps the reason Mariss and Geof put up with me is that they are open minded seekers of the truth, if it's possible they want to know about it. If anyone has an explanation, they will listen, examine, debate, in other words have a dialog. You on the other hand, simplistically think that your way has to be right because it's your way. Marisse, Goef and I are not of that mindset. I can be persuaded by reason, I'm sure they can too, I doubt that you can.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna,

Memory need not serve. From the wiki page, scroll down to "Yields of common crops". Algae is the last item in the list. There are two entries, actual and theoretical for algae, 819 gal/acre/yr and 5,000 gal/acre/yr respectively. The theoretical number is footnoted:

** Algae yields are projected based on the sustainable average biomass yields of the NREL's aquatic species program, and an assumed oil content of 60%. Actual oil content was much less.**

I get two interesting conclusions from the footnote:

1) "Assumed oil content of 60%". One can assume anything; what matters is reality. The second sentence gives an inkling of reality, "Actual oil content was much less.".

2) Your good UNH professor went a good deal further into unreality. He suggested 15,000 gal/acre/yr. That would make the oil content 180%!! Now that is truly miraculous.

Mariss

Hi WYLD,
My my, aren't we vitriolic and uptight! Take a look at the last century, I can remember when cars came from the factory getting about 10 or 12 MPG. Now those same vehicles get 18 to 20. It's called advanced technology, the result of research and development that yields new and improved results. The numbers from Wikipedia are good, I've validated them from other sources. Also, when you're dealing with biological phenomena the potential for improvement is enormous. Biological entities are incredibly efficient at converting sunlight into protoplasm. After all, they've had millions of years to evolve and perfect their metabolism. Perhaps the reason Mariss and Geof put up with me is that they are open minded seekers of the truth, if it's possible they want to know about it. If anyone has an explanation, they will listen, examine, debate, in other words have a dialog. You on the other hand, simplistically think that your way has to be right because it's your way. Marisse, Goef and I are not of that mindset. I can be persuaded by reason, I'm sure they can too, I doubt that you can.
Take care,
xyzdonna

10 or 12 mpg? I remember my Fathers 55 Chevy getting 21 and 22 mpg.In my driveway this moment is his 65 Olds Dynamic 88 and it will still get 18 mpg around town. (Exactly of which cars do you speak?)

Not the same cars either, these Kleenex boxes will blow off the highway in a mild breeze and mash flat as a pancake under a medium sized pickup.

Again with Wiki and POTENTIAL improvement. Lets see some real improvement and those other sources.

Be careful about placing yourself in association with that August group, I suspect that there is an element of entertainment afoot.

Typical of left wingers, one who is certain of his position is characterized as ignorant, stubborn, bigoted, homophobic or some other derisive terminology.

Face it this subject is far from settled, let alone science!

Hi WYLD,
My my, aren't we vitriolic and uptight! Take a look at the last century, I can remember when cars came from the factory getting about 10 or 12 MPG. Now those same vehicles get 18 to 20. It's called advanced technology, the result of research and development that yields new and improved results. The numbers from Wikipedia are good, I've validated them from other sources. Also, when you're dealing with biological phenomena the potential for improvement is enormous. Biological entities are incredibly efficient at converting sunlight into protoplasm. After all, they've had millions of years to evolve and perfect their metabolism. Perhaps the reason Mariss and Geof put up with me is that they are open minded seekers of the truth, if it's possible they want to know about it. If anyone has an explanation, they will listen, examine, debate, in other words have a dialog. You on the other hand, simplistically think that your way has to be right because it's your way. Marisse, Goef and I are not of that mindset. I can be persuaded by reason, I'm sure they can too, I doubt that you can.
Take care,
xyzdonna


xyzDonna

Vitriol, yes. Uptight no. The efficiency gains you talk about aren't orders of magnitude beyond the efficiency of the past. Rather, small incremental gains. Many automobiles would be far more efficient if they didn't have to haul around an extra 1000 lbs of sound deadening, electrical components or wider/extra rows of seats. Like everything else in America, BIGGER IS BETTER!!! Why eat ONE cheeseburger when you can gorge yourself on THREE...after all, it only cost $2 extra!
As for efficiency of flora...it still comes down to our ability to process & refine based on technology we have and will develop. Again, small incremental gains, not orders of magnitude...no sci-fi rayguns to instantaneously convert algae to oil. Sorry. The only arena in technology that has increased by orders of magnitude are microcomputers and silicon chips. And those are still small incremental gains when you consider without new technologies we will reach a footprint threshold.
On the CNC front, even mills & lathes of today are built MUCH THE SAME as they have always been, not just for convenience of tradition, but because constant refining has made them a known quantity.
Don't question my ability to gather or interpret data. I have had much more responsibility with the information I have had to gather in my lifetime, peoples lives were literally on the line. I take no chances with that obligation. Were that you would THINK before you SPEAK.

Hi WYLD,
Biological entities are incredibly efficient at converting sunlight into protoplasm. After all, they've had millions of years to evolve and perfect their metabolism.

I can be persuaded by reason,
xyzdonna

Donna, I gotta ask.......reason or logic? Logic or faith? I have read all your posts on this thread, your responses to Mariss and others, and it sure seems to me like you are basing your reason on faith? Where is the logic in that?

These biological entities you speak of.......where did they come from and how did they start? I have only had one agnostic that was able to truly articulate himself when I asked this question. Can you?:confused:

Mike

xyzdonna,

Memory need not serve. From the wiki page, scroll down to "Yields of common crops". Algae is the last item in the list. There are two entries, actual and theoretical for algae, 819 gal/acre/yr and 5,000 gal/acre/yr respectively. The theoretical number is footnoted:

** Algae yields are projected based on the sustainable average biomass yields of the NREL's aquatic species program, and an assumed oil content of 60%. Actual oil content was much less.**

I get two interesting conclusions from the footnote:

1) "Assumed oil content of 60%". One can assume anything; what matters is reality. The second sentence gives an inkling of reality, "Actual oil content was much less.".

2) Your good UNH professor went a good deal further into unreality. He suggested 15,000 gal/acre/yr. That would make the oil content 180%!! Now that is truly miraculous.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
I agree with you, actual oil content would probably be closer to 40% than 60% but that is just a supposition on my part. They might could get it up to 45% or 50% with genetic engineering. But I believe your 819 gal/acre/year rate of production was derived from open pond as opposed to a closed pond system. Anyone who has ever owned a swimming pool knows that it's a lot easier to maintain in the winter months than in the summer as algae grows so much faster and efficiently in the warmer environs. A closed system would have a lot longer growing season. In short, it would be a much more efficient producer of biomass. I can see at least a 3 or 4 fold increase due to a longer growing season.
So let's multiply your 819 figure by 4 to come up with 3276 gal/acre/year. Still far short of the authors' 15,000 but it may begin to make sense at this number. As the dollar declines the folks in the mid-east are making noises about dropping dollars in favor of Euro's. They would be smart to do that, and we can only assume they will, thus further impacting the dollar & making oil more expensive. By the time this administration leaves Washington it's conceivable that they will have managed to half the value of the dollar since taking office. Can you envision oil at $150 ~ $175 a barrel? Oil has no where to go but up. It's immutable in the long run that it will. We're dealing with a finite commodity. At some point biomass will, I think, be economically competitive with petroleum. As I pointed out earlier it's carbon neutral. And who knows, with global warming we may not even have to cover the algae ponds. It may be so warm that they happily grow year round out in the open!
xyzdonna

Donna, I gotta ask.......reason or logic? Logic or faith? I have read all your posts on this thread, your responses to Mariss and others, and it sure seems to me like you are basing your reason on faith? Where is the logic in that?

These biological entities you speak of.......where did they come from and how did they start? I have only had one agnostic that was able to truly articulate himself when I asked this question. Can you?:confused:

Mike
Hi turmite,
Where did it all come from? From the primordial ooze or the hand of the creator, ah that's the question. From the point of view of this discussion it doesn't matter, the solution must be in our hands. I think the creator (if there is one) has demonstrated amply that she has no intention of stepping in and saving us from our folly. It's up to us my friend. I too can envision an all knowing super-being watching our world to see where it goes. I think she would enjoy the show, seeing what humankind could make and create. How far we might go before destroying ourselves or our habitat with our folly. I wouldn't count on her bailing us out though. I don't think we should base our future on that hope.
xyzdonna

Does this hold any substantial clues to where this debate is going?........Those with the power to dictate the rules ultimately have the last say and the ability to prevent public exposure to the contrary.


For the record (http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=c9554887-802a-23ad-4303-68f67ebd151c)

DC

Does this hold any substantial clues to where this debate is going?........Those with the power to dictate the rules ultimately have the last say and the ability to prevent public exposure to the contrary.


For the record (http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=c9554887-802a-23ad-4303-68f67ebd151c)

DC

The article you linked to, this forum indeed, the internet as an entity as well as a brand new player in the field, Fox News, all are evidence that the ability o prevent public exposure is shrinking quickly.

as to the power to dictate the rules, again I will refer you to an old song.........

With compromise sway we give in half way
When we saw that rebellion was growing.
Now everything's lost as they kneel by the cross
Where the blood of Christ is still flowing.
Too late for their sorrow they've reached their tomorrow
and reaped the seed they were sowing.
Now harvested by the ringing of revolution

Uhmm.........

The article you linked to, this forum indeed, the internet as an entity as well as a brand new player in the field, Fox News, all are evidence that the ability o prevent public exposure is shrinking quickly.

as to the power to dictate the rules, again I will refer you to an old song.........

With compromise sway we give in half way
When we saw that rebellion was growing.
Now everything's lost as they kneel by the cross
Where the blood of Christ is still flowing.
Too late for their sorrow they've reached their tomorrow
and reaped the seed they were sowing.
Now harvested by the ringing of revolution

Hi jhowelb,
To use the word Fox and news in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Fox "news" is Rupert Murdochs' right wing propaganda dispenser. Designed to give the non-thinking masses solace and comfort, while the world goes to hell in a hand-basket.

xyzdonna

Hi jhowelb,
To use the word Fox and news in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Fox "news" is Rupert Murdochs' right wing propaganda dispenser. Designed to give the non-thinking masses solace and comfort, while the world goes to hell in a hand-basket.

xyzdonna

To be honest, I'm not sure why anyone would trust anything any MSM had to offer without researching the "facts" for themselves.

Hi jhowelb,
To use the word Fox and news in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Fox "news" is Rupert Murdochs' right wing propaganda dispenser. Designed to give the non-thinking masses solace and comfort, while the world goes to hell in a hand-basket.

xyzdonna

EXACTLY the response I anticipated from a coolaid infected, mind dead, left wing loonytoon who would eat up the crap coming from Algore, Al Franken, Barb Streisand, NBC (Nuthin But Crap) and the like.

Again, anyone who disagrees with you must be denigrated and devalued regardless of the truths they bring forth.

Your side no longer has a monopoly and the harder you fight to gain it back the more you are seen for what you really are.

Hi jhowelb,
To use the word Fox and news in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Fox "news" is Rupert Murdochs' right wing propaganda dispenser. Designed to give the non-thinking masses solace and comfort, while the world goes to hell in a hand-basket.

xyzdonna

Perhaps the reason Mariss and Geof put up with me is that they are open minded seekers of the truth, if it's possible they want to know about it. If anyone has an explanation, they will listen, examine, debate, in other words have a dialog. You on the other hand, simplistically think that your way has to be right because it's your way. Marisse, Goef and I are not of that mindset. I can be persuaded by reason, I'm sure they can too, I doubt that you can.

Speaking of oxymoronic mono-theocratic ideologies........your open mind is apparently absent here, void of simplistic reasoning. Chasing your own tail against what moves you whilst chastising others for what moves them. Hmmmmm, makes it look like you don't want a debate, you desire an argument to test your cunning wits and single minded rants against your opponents. I usually don't lean on knowing I am right, but what makes you so obstinate to think you are more right, more brilliant, better informed than anyone else here? The challenge is having something to prove?

You can't admit all news is biased, including your sources? They all tend to avoid specific dirt publication against their own agenda. The only thing Fox has going for it is that they are willing to onus up to it without apologetic apathy to a hidden agenda. The non-thinking masses take for granted what main stream media portrays as truthful news. Reasoning people are better served to vet out some semblance of facts over several reports. On similar terms, be very suspicious of blatant partisan perspectives for fear of becoming indoctrinated into a media cult dispenser as you have dispensed as your own rite.

You can't tell me that is not, " Do as I say, Not as I do" just by reading your elementary logic!

What tangled webs we weave!

DC

Skeptical Scientists Urge World To ‘Have the Courage to Do Nothing' At UN Conference

As can be seen, this is a government link. For all who care to avail themselves of another view, this would be about as good as any.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=c9554887-802a-23ad-4303-68f67ebd151c

EXACTLY the response I anticipated from a coolaid infected, mind dead, left wing loonytoon who would eat up the crap coming from Algore, Al Franken, Barb Streisand, NBC (Nuthin But Crap) and the like.

Again, anyone who disagrees with you must be denigrated and devalued regardless of the truths they bring forth.

Your side no longer has a monopoly and the harder you fight to gain it back the more you are seen for what you really are.

Hi jhowelb,
You forgot Rosie O'Donnell and Bill Maher. Bill is my favorite, I loved it when he said if Bush's dad hadn't been president he would probably have been a bar tender, that was about the limit of his intellectual abilities.
I don't mind someone who disagrees with me, most everyone I know does. I have to learn to accept it or do away with friends and family. But I will tell them what I think and listen to what they think. Especially someone like Mariss or Geof. They know a great deal more than I do about electrical engineering, math and chemistry. I listen to my friend John when it comes to nuclear and other points of science. I'm very happy to know and learn from people who know more about science and math than I do. I don't subscribe to the right wing drivel that any of them espouse though. I've pointed out in spades what this administration has done to this country. I've also postulated a strategy that just might hold out hope of getting us out of this energy mess. Mariss and Geof disagree. Since I seem to be the only one taking the contrarian view, it would seem that I serve a function as to maintaining the debate. If you want to flame me off the list all you'll have left is a bunch of radical right wing conservatives stroking each other's fur in the right direction so that nothing gets resolved. The world gets warmer, gas prices climb, the dollar goes lower, the economy tanks and everyone wonders what happened.
xyzdonna

Speaking of oxymoronic mono-theocratic ideologies........your open mind is apparently absent here, void of simplistic reasoning. Chasing your own tail against what moves you whilst chastising others for what moves them. Hmmmmm, makes it look like you don't want a debate, you desire an argument to test your cunning wits and single minded rants against your opponents. I usually don't lean on knowing I am right, but what makes you so obstinate to think you are more right, more brilliant, better informed than anyone else here? The challenge is having something to prove?

You can't admit all news is biased, including your sources? They all tend to avoid specific dirt publication against their own agenda. The only thing Fox has going for it is that they are willing to onus up to it without apologetic apathy to a hidden agenda. The non-thinking masses take for granted what main stream media portrays as truthful news. Reasoning people are better served to vet out some semblance of facts over several reports. On similar terms, be very suspicious of blatant partisan perspectives for fear of becoming indoctrinated into a media cult dispenser as you have dispensed as your own rite.

You can't tell me that is not, " Do as I say, Not as I do" just by reading your elementary logic!

What tangled webs we weave!

DC

Hi one of many,
I don't think I'm more brilliant than everyone here. Maybe less brilliant than most. I just feel that I can see thinks clearly and realistically. I look at the world as it is, not as I might wish it were. The only thing I'm trying to prove is the validity of my ideas. Not that I'm smarter than everyone else, I'm not. Nor that I'm always right, I'm not that either. If Mariss or Geof or anyone else takes valid assumptions and mathmatically proves it can't work I'll accept it and propose something new. If the assumptions are wrong then the math proves nothing. You may remember that Mariss just about had me convinced, then I looked deeper and questioned his numbers as to yield/acre/year.
Yes, mainstream news tends to take my side more than yours. It gets back to seeing things clearly, realistically and objectively. I agree with you "Reasoning people are better served to vet out some semblance of facts over several reports." I believe in researching multiple sources to get at what is going on. That's why the net is so valuable.
I'm not sure what you mean by: "You can't tell me that is not, " Do as I say, Not as I do" just by reading your elementary logic!"
xyzdonna

I don't mind someone who disagrees with me, most everyone I know does. I have to learn to accept it or do away with friends and family.
And did it ever occur to you that THEY might just be right?

"I've also postulated a strategy that just might hold out hope of getting us out of this energy mess. Mariss and Geof disagree"

Even these that you want to hold on a higher level (because you know that we hold them in high esteem) tell you that you are wrong.

Every night as I go to bed, I that God for the two Bush presidents. America would have ceased to exist without them. The folks you back would have us bowing to Mecca 5 times a day or lose our heads just because they don't have the testosterone to recognize let alone oppose the real enemy.

Wake up, smell the coffee, OPEN your eyes and take an HONEST look. The side you favor is wrong, they have always been wrong and indicate that they will go farther wrong given the chance.

You said you wanted a political discussion, for us it's like wrestling with a one armed spastic.....you just don't have or use enough brains to realize that you have been beaten like a base drum!

And did it ever occur to you that THEY might just be right?

"I've also postulated a strategy that just might hold out hope of getting us out of this energy mess. Mariss and Geof disagree"

Even these that you want to hold on a higher level (because you know that we hold them in high esteem) tell you that you are wrong.

Every night as I go to bed, I that God for the two Bush presidents. America would have ceased to exist without them. The folks you back would have us bowing to Mecca 5 times a day or lose our heads just because they don't have the testosterone to recognize let alone oppose the real enemy.

Wake up, smell the coffee, OPEN your eyes and take an HONEST look. The side you favor is wrong, they have always been wrong and indicate that they will go farther wrong given the chance.

You said you wanted a political discussion, for us it's like wrestling with a one armed spastic.....you just don't have or use enough brains to realize that you have been beaten like a base drum!

Hi jhowelb,
I really didn't say I wanted a political discussion. Although I do believe it's hard to divorce this global warming discussion from politics. Mariss has asked me to keep my politics to myself because it seems to so inflame this list which is decidedly right wing. But part of the reason we're in this mess is because of the incompetence of our political leaders.
I missed the strategy you postulated, what is it?
We don't need anymore testosterone, think Hillary! Where did that testosterone get us, the dollar is down by a third, we're fighting a war we didn't even need to fight, starting to lose a war we need to win in Afganistan. The national debt is skyrocketing due to the morons big tax giveaway to billionaires and incompetent handling of the economy. Most of the middle east loathes us. Most of Europe thinks we're idiots, and perhaps rightly so. This administration has the debt up to about $30,000 for every man, woman, and child in this country! Clinton had the debt under control if you'll remember. He handed the economy over to this administration in pretty good shape. We've essentially had no energy policy under his watch. Oh maybe a couple of switch grass speeches, or inviting an oil shiek out to the ranch and patting him on the back. The economy will soon be in shambles, it's getting really bad now. It is now over 6 years since 911 and the border with Mexico is still wide open. The level of incompetence of this administration defies comprehension. He's still resorting to torturing POW's. This is so intolerable he should be impeached! This is not what America was supposed to be about, we were supposed to be better than our enemies. Can you believe that someone could wear a T-shirt critical of this president to one of his rallies and be arrested? Is this the kind of country you want to live in where criticism of the president results in your arrest? BTW it comes right out of a Republican play book where they tell the flock what to do if someone does this. Who would have thought, maybe in Russia or China but right here in the good ol USA. This is why I find this administration so abominable, incompetent, corrupt, illegal and downright totally misguided.
xyzdonna

O.K.! I give up! You just need to be shot for being felony stupid and unreachable.

Back to my original stance, YOU just don't exist!

Hi one of many,
I don't think I'm more brilliant than everyone here. Maybe less brilliant than most. I just feel that I can see things clearly and realistically. I look at the world as it is, not as I might wish it were.

You must, if you think Fox is any more of problem than your sources. You can be misled by your own perspectives of reality. We only think we see clearly with what we relate to, which often time in liberal think is "feeling" which is an emotion not directly connected to reality. What is realistic to you, gives you comfort and solace when listening to those you agree with and look up to. Yet you condemn others for the same exact thing and call it drivel.




The only thing I'm trying to prove is the validity of my ideas. Not that I'm smarter than everyone else, I'm not. Nor that I'm always right, I'm not that either.

Your conclusions state it different. The radical left you lean toward has some of the most vile behaviors traits of moral conduct. They too judge, but refuse to be judged. You want to talk about the world going to hell in a handbasket, just look at the platform and the voting base they attract. The litany of moral relativisms are no benefit to society. They do more to damage it than promote well being among mankind.

I too am fed up with the administration. I am near embarassed I voted for them. However, I voted with greater enthusiasm against the above issues than I voted for the likes of what we ended up with. It's a crap shoot gamble I took and will do it again.



Yes, mainstream news tends to take my side more than yours. It gets back to seeing things clearly, realistically and objectively. I agree with you "Reasoning people are better served to vet out some semblance of facts over several reports." I believe in researching multiple sources to get at what is going on. That's why the net is so valuable.
I'm not sure what you mean by: "You can't tell me that is not, " Do as I say, Not as I do" just by reading your elementary logic!"
xyzdonna

Don't call it mine........I am a lone wolf leaning conservative and do not adhear to much of the obsessions pandered to in the Republican arena . But the sickening thing is that the news you trust ends up being how you vote. That, is as I see it, is a major manipulation of the ill informed masses that won't take due diligence to see if what they have been programmed to think is as it has been presented. There is no clarity or objectivity and most people are too lazy to seek it out, if it isn't on the door step or the 3-4 channels of "trusted sources". There is very little full disclosure that gives the pro's and con's of reporting a story. Unfortunatley, in a democracy of propaganda driven news, the popularity of a view point is all that matters regardless of facts.

My point is that where you speak from both sides of your derision. In one breath you make it sound like you are open minded and persuaded by reason(with factual information to back it up, which you chose to ignore or discount), then post your bias while showing contempt for the bias of those you oppose. It is all drivel and nothing will be resolved here by mere laymen debating or arguing partisan talking points. Be that politics, global economy or the environment. The people to blame are the ones that have offered to inform you in their view.

DC

If you want to flame me off the list all you'll have left is a bunch of radical right wing conservatives stroking each other's fur in the right direction so that nothing gets resolved. The world gets warmer, gas prices climb, the dollar goes lower, the economy tanks and everyone wonders what happened.
xyzdonna

xyzDonna...
I don't know how they do it where you're from, but when I lived in the south, no group of men ever sat around stroking eachother...
As for the world getting warmer...yes please. We are having a noticeably colder than average temperature this time of year (to the tune of 10* F colder than the historical average...3* F shy of the coldest temperature on record for this time of year) along with over a foot of the finest white fluffy Ma Nature could dump on the Rockies...
Gas prices climb...and my dollar is worth less...
The dollar goes lower not because of oil prices, but because of our huge national deficit, treasury bonds that are purchased by China & Taiwan, China's own currency manipulation, the sliding credit market, the sliding housing market...in short, take a course in macroeconomics...
the economy tanks...those poor Asians & Indians who are currently experiencing a massive bull market...which is having an effect on us as well, due to the global nature of markets...
everyone wonders what happened...just those who don't know what happened, or those to stoned to realized what happened...
Please xyxDonna, I had better volleys than the tripe you push when I was a freshman in high school entering debate for the first time. You are tiresome, hypocritical, rhetorical, noncommonsensical, contradictory...
"one of these things is not like the other one..."

O.K.! I give up! You just need to be shot for being felony stupid and unreachable.

Back to my original stance, YOU just don't exist!

Oh jhowelb, dear jhowelb,
Let's get off of politics as Mariss suggested. We're not going to change each others minds. You are one of the 30% that still support this administration. He was elected with over 50%. That means that over 40% of your own party has abandoned him. Let's discuss your idea to solve the energy crisis.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzDonna...
I don't know how they do it where you're from, but when I lived in the south, no group of men ever sat around stroking eachother...
As for the world getting warmer...yes please. We are having a noticeably colder than average temperature this time of year (to the tune of 10* F colder than the historical average...3* F shy of the coldest temperature on record for this time of year) along with over a foot of the finest white fluffy Ma Nature could dump on the Rockies...
Gas prices climb...and my dollar is worth less...
The dollar goes lower not because of oil prices, but because of our huge national deficit, treasury bonds that are purchased by China & Taiwan, China's own currency manipulation, the sliding credit market, the sliding housing market...in short, take a course in macroeconomics...
the economy tanks...those poor Asians & Indians who are currently experiencing a massive bull market...which is having an effect on us as well, due to the global nature of markets...
everyone wonders what happened...just those who don't know what happened, or those to stoned to realized what happened...
Please xyxDonna, I had better volleys than the tripe you push when I was a freshman in high school entering debate for the first time. You are tiresome, hypocritical, rhetorical, noncommonsensical, contradictory...
"one of these things is not like the other one..."

Hi WYLD,
The dollar does go lower because of oil prices, did you make it through freshman economics 101? As we ship massive dollars over to the middle east to buy oil and the Arabs start to dump them in favor of Euros or other currencies then the value of the dollar goes down. Sure, the national debt and the balance of payments deficit, exacerbated by petro dollars shipped to the middle east are part of the problem as well. Gulf storms, regional cold spells or warm spells, various anomaly's in weather patterns do not portend global warming. Sea level temperatures and polar ice caps melting do.
I've had courses in macro and micro economics and some of the things you are saying are true. I just doubt that you know which are and which aren't. Ah but perhaps you are right, maybe I should go out and burn one. Maybe that way I could dumb myself down enough to converse with you. Then again, maybe not.
Take care,
xyzdonna

Energy crisis? We have more energy than we can use, just get your green weenie friends to get their stupid asses out of the way and let us recover it. Gulf of Mexico, Alaska, all the coast waters, the Rockies! There is an ocean of oil, centuries worth of coal, methane hydrides and nuclear. The nitwittery you want to pursue will bear no more fruit than the insanity of climate modification.

If you could perchance drive every one here crazy enough to agree with you there would still be no solution because there is no one here with the ability to change by one micron the course of the economy.

The only thing we can do is voice an opinion, which looks to me like it's four square against you!!

xyzdonna,

"You may remember that Mariss just about had me convinced, then I looked deeper and questioned his numbers as to yield/acre/year."

Come on, that's a little unfair unless it's meant as a rhetorical device to make a point. Set up a straw man, knock him over, proclaim your victory. You claim to be a realist. If so, believe "actual" numbers, beware of "might be", "could be" and "possibly". A lot of wishes, hype and chicanery rides with those words; they studiously ignore "might not", "wasn't" and "not possible".

I am an engineer. I use datasheets. Datasheets have guaranteed and typical specifications. If you fly on a plane, do you want it to be designed to typical or guaranteed specifications? Better yet, would you get on a plane designed by a greenie? The wings are made of biodegradable cardboard, they actually fold at a measured 819 lbs of load. Would you trust they could fold at a possible 5,000 lbs or even 15,000 lbs as your UNH professor might claim? I suspect you would have a sudden, strong faith in actual numbers then.

Mariss

Hi WYLD,
Maybe that way I could dumb myself down enough to converse with you. Then again, maybe not.
Take care,
xyzdonna

Arrogance doesn't begin to describe you. Didn't think it was possible but your esteem just took a nose dive.

If you dumb down any you won't be able to breathe. You don't present like someone with letters at a university, so I must conclude that among you other accomplishments, liar would by at the top of the list. Just like bitc...ahhh...... MRS. Klinton!

"Yes, mainstream news tends to take my side more than yours"
That one was funny

I say the same thing about G-Gordan,Rush,Sean, Bill ,Michael Savage, and Mark Levin

The "Main stream" is anything but.

The Right wing kooks at least bring up the bad stuff about the current administration when need be.

But not the relentless on and on BS of the the left .

Seriously, how would Egore or Kerry have been "ANY" better ?

And GW is a dream that don't factor in the sun .
Come on THE SUN

Worry about crap that matters.

Like R/C , CNC ,and Casting

If there was a temp increase in SO CAL today it was due to my furnace:rainfro:

Uhhhhhhhhhh, debogus, ummmmmmmm, that's ALGORE not Egore. Frank N, Stein woulda throwd Algors butt outhu labatory!

If I had to put my finger on a right wingnut, Savage would be it. Again, looks like every one on the left has gone beserk.

Yup I disagree with GWB bitterly, on border security for example.

Look out, the Global Village can do more than raise a child and Dog (I'm just using the POLITE term) Klinton and her main squeeze will wreak havoc with your hobby and the internet too.

What we are doing here is VERY dangerous for totalitarian types. That's speaking our minds.

xyzdonna,

"You may remember that Mariss just about had me convinced, then I looked deeper and questioned his numbers as to yield/acre/year."

Come on, that's a little unfair unless it's meant as a rhetorical device to make a point. Set up a straw man, knock him over, proclaim your victory. You claim to be a realist. If so, believe "actual" numbers, beware of "might be", "could be" and "possibly". A lot of wishes, hype and chicanery rides with those words; they studiously ignore "might not", "wasn't" and "not possible".

I am an engineer. I use datasheets. Datasheets have guaranteed and typical specifications. If you fly on a plane, do you want it to be designed to typical or guaranteed specifications? Better yet, would you get on a plane designed by a greenie? The wings are made of biodegradable cardboard, they actually fold at a measured 819 lbs of load. Would you trust they could fold at a possible 5,000 lbs or even 15,000 lbs as your UNH professor might claim? I suspect you would have a sudden, strong faith in actual numbers then.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
Trust me, I am a realist as are you. I'm just trying to get valid numbers to work with, then I'll get back with you. Yes, you are an engineer and once I get some numbers with validity then we can run with them, I don't think we have them now. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that we don't have good numbers to start with yet. I have posted an email to the professor who wrote the article. If he deigns to answer me then we can mull over what he says. If not, I'll do some more research. The yield per acre per year you used was for an open air system. A closed system is supposed to have a much higher yield per acre. I'm really more interested in getting at the truth than proving you or anyone else wrong. As I said before, I don't have a big ego, to me it's far more important to know the truth than to be right. BTW, I respect the hell out of you and your engineering knowledge, I tried to become an engineer once and failed, I just didn't have the ability. Wasn't that good in math, as I said, I had to repeat every course in calculus I took. But, I'm good at other things. Please don't think I'm putting you down, I just want to get the facts straight.
Take care,
xyzdonna

mmmmmmmm........ if what you want to think is at variance with truth, do more research to see if you can redefine truth. If you can't blind them with brilliance, baffle them with bull sh......

Liberals, gad! (gag, choke, snuffle)

Hi WYLD,
The dollar does go lower because of oil prices, did you make it through freshman economics 101? As we ship massive dollars over to the middle east to buy oil and the Arabs start to dump them in favor of Euros or other currencies then the value of the dollar goes down. Sure, the national debt and the balance of payments deficit, exacerbated by petro dollars shipped to the middle east are part of the problem as well. Gulf storms, regional cold spells or warm spells, various anomaly's in weather patterns do not portend global warming. Sea level temperatures and polar ice caps melting do.
I've had courses in macro and micro economics and some of the things you are saying are true. I just doubt that you know which are and which aren't. Ah but perhaps you are right, maybe I should go out and burn one. Maybe that way I could dumb myself down enough to converse with you. Then again, maybe not.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzDonna,
The farmer that fertilizes my crops, but refuses to pluck the ripe hanging fruit...
Buying oil doesn't weaken the dollar retard. If it did we would have been a 3rd world nation by now...our insatiable thirst remember? The arabs and south americans are piggybacking a stronger currency because ours has slipped due to the McMansion mortgage credit crunch and our notoriously high deficit. But I guess your economics professor couldn't explain anything more important than why he wanted a DOUBLE latte from Starbucks instead of a single when you came in for your advisor session...
The only way you could dumb yourself down more would be if you took the few braincells that survived your sorority days and replaced them with fecal matter. Then you really would be a ****-for-brains. :)

we need a sandbox for this conversation.:-)

Energy crisis? We have more energy than we can use, just get your green weenie friends to get their stupid asses out of the way and let us recover it. Gulf of Mexico, Alaska, all the coast waters, the Rockies! There is an ocean of oil, centuries worth of coal, methane hydrides and nuclear. The nitwittery you want to pursue will bear no more fruit than the insanity of climate modification.

If you could perchance drive every one here crazy enough to agree with you there would still be no solution because there is no one here with the ability to change by one micron the course of the economy.

The only thing we can do is voice an opinion, which looks to me like it's four square against you!!

Hi jhowelb,
Yep, I think you're right, everyone here does seem to be against me. See there, we've found something we can agree on! Get my green weenie friends out of the way? I see, let's trash the planet for Jesus, after all he can build us another one, right? Oh jhowelb, do you know what you advocate? Religion has done more damage to the world than every single philosophy since the beginning of time. I seek truth wherever it leads.
Take care,
xyzdonna

Dear List,
I got an email from Michael Briggs the author of the paper on biodiesel.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

As you will see his answer is encouraging, but not definitive. Obviously 15,000 to 20,000 gal/acre/year would be impossible, this is the theoretical maximum at 100% efficiency. The claim of 5,000 hasn't even been verified. But if the real world numbers of 5,000 do prove to be correct, it will mean that the process is viable. Here is his letter:
xyzdonna

Donna,
THe maximum yield based on the quantum limits of photosynthetic
efficiency is around 15,000-20,000 gallons per acre-year, assuming all of
the biomass can be converted to fuel with 100% efficiency. That's not
entirely realistic, but it gives a ballpark figure to shoot for. I think
5,000 gallons/acre-year, possibly up to 7 or 8,000, is realistically
feasible with a well managed photobioreactor. The main challenge though is
designing photobioreactors that can be built much cheaper than current
designs, to bring the capital cost down. By the way, GreenFuel
Technologies is claiming they have achieved around 5,000
gallons/acre-year, although that hasn't yet been verified independently.
However, their photobioreactor systems are IMO far too expensive for
commercial viability at current fuel prices.

Regards,
Mike

--

--------------------------------------------------------------
Michael S. Briggs
UNH Physics Department
(603) 862-2828
---------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, xdonna@comcast.net wrote:

> Hi Michael,
> We're having a debate as to the feasability of implementing biodiesel to replace conventional petroleum in the US economy. Basically it all comes down to yield per acre. One of the persons cites the Wikipedia article that gives a yield per acre of about 819 gal/acre/year. I think this is for an open air algae system. If memory serves, a closed system should give a much greater yield. Do you have any real world numbers as to yield per acre of a closed system that I could use to rebutt the figures I'm being given? Your help would be much appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Donna

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xyzdonna,

You seem to be morphing into a troll. The kind that live on alt.politics.diatribe. The kind that enjoy poking people in the eye just to see what outrage it stirs up. Your recent posts have been laden with political and religious insults whose only purpose can be to intentionally irritate; the Clinton stuff, the idiot-in-chief stuff, the Jesus stuff. That is the idle and cruel amusement trolls enjoy, to see if they can bring out the worst in people. Poke them where they're sensitive, enjoy their screams. You have gone a long way to meeting that description.

The oxygen trolls live on is replies from outraged people. If you persist, I personally will choose to discontinue further debate with you.

Mariss

xyzdonna,

You seem to be morphing into a troll. The kind that live on alt.politics.diatribe. The kind that enjoy poking people in the eye just to see what outrage it stirs up. Your recent posts have been laden with political and religious insults whose only purpose can be to intentionally irritate; the Clinton stuff, the idiot-in-chief stuff, the Jesus stuff. That is the idle and cruel amusement trolls enjoy, to see if they can bring out the worst in people. Poke them where they're sensitive, enjoy their screams. You have gone a long way to meeting that description.

The oxygen trolls live on is replies from outraged people. If you persist, I personally will choose to discontinue further debate with you.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
I have a better idea, I'll leave the discussion, I think we've taken it about as far as we can. From my point of view I've been the recipient of as much abuse as I've handed out. It doesn't bother me, I'm pretty thick skinned. I'm sure I've managed to offend just about everybody on the list and hurt some as well. For that I apologize. Sometimes I forget that what I say can be hurtful. Trust me when I say I meant nothing personal. I know I can get carried away sometimes.
As for biodiesel, the answer seems to be that more research has to be done. The photobioreactors will have to come down in cost. I suppose at some point the cost of petroleum will go up as the cost of biodiesel c