By the way, Hand Wanker was in South Africa during the time of Apartheid. One can only imagine the damage he caused under that system.


Handlewanker was born in England and is genetically predisposed to fog and cooler weather. He has not been able to admit that Australia is just too warm for him, but he expresses this as certainty about the impending doom of global warming.

The British took South Africa by force (Boer War) around 1900 after the discovery of gold. Rough treatment by the Brits, including internment camps, led to the Dutch settlers protecting their own interest at the exclusion of all others. When the Dutch returned to power in 1948 this prior history made apartheid seem like a good idea. That said, I don't think you can hold handlewanker responsible.

Handlewanker was born in England and is genetically predisposed to fog and cooler weather. He has not been able to admit that Australia is just too warm for him, but he expresses this as certainty about the impending doom of global warming.

The British took South Africa by force (Boer War) around 1900 after the discovery of gold. Rough treatment by the Brits, including internment camps, led to the Dutch settlers protecting their own interest at the exclusion of all others. When the Dutch returned to power in 1948 this prior history made apartheid seem like a good idea. That said, I don't think you can hold handlewanker responsible.

Yes, I know the history. But, anytime things like this happen, there are always outsiders that come in and profit from the mess. I would never hold Hand Wanker responsible for anything, I don't think he is capable of initiating anything of substance much less accepting responsibility. He does strike me as an opportunist though and his time there covered some of the strife.

Your own comment about the British and their works on South Africa displays his hypocrisy. He will get on Americans for everything from plundering other countries resources to running foreign governments for America's gain when in reality, England has done much the same and more.

If one adds in India, China, Ireland, many other countries, plus their dance with the Zulu tribes, it makes American/Indian fiasco look like a London tea party. In fact, England tried to become rulers of the world judging from all the 'colonies' that they attempted to establish which conveniently slips his mind.

He also overlooks the English settling of Canada. That wasn't a pretty picture either. I think he is still POed because many people left England to come settle in America so as to get out from under English rule. Even America, sort of discovered by an Italian using Spanish backing being claimed by the English seems to be beyond his grasp. Going further back, the Crusades which started out one way and ended up in another is not something to shout about either. Do as I say, not as I do is his motto..

Ummmm........

Would that be Mr. Mehoff?

Yes, and probably very often, to access, all the time, and with doubtful results.... ;->

.....In fact, England tried to become rulers of the world judging from all the 'colonies' that they attempted to establish......

Attempted to establish? You should go back and check your history, they did establish colonies all over the globe and for a period of time to all intents and purposes did rule the world. Have you never heard the saying; 'The sun never sets on the British Empire.' It was quite true, it did not.

Attempted to establish? You should go back and check your history, they did establish colonies all over the globe and for a period of time to all intents and purposes did rule the world. Have you never heard the saying; 'The sun never sets on the British Empire.' It was quite true, it did not.

Yes, I know. There was also, "Britannia rules the Waves.." eluding to their domination of the seas.

My stating about 'attempted' was to include some minor failures and near misses to rule France, Germany, North America, and the Protestants....

In fact, many Muslims are still mad about the Crusades and this has a direct bearing on many problems that many are facing today.

In fact, these United States were once 13 British colonies.

All that means that Willie Wanker really can't distance himself nearly as far as he would like from the falderal he postulates.

In fact, these United States were once 13 British colonies.

All that means that Willie Wanker really can't distance himself nearly as far as he would like from the falderal he postulates.

Then one can factually state that if it was not for Wanker's forbearers....American Indians would have been safe.

So, technically, it is Wanker's fault, not the Americans that started the ball rolling against the American Indians. Well, La Dee Dah......

Works better coming from you that me!

Technically, I'm a mutt. My roots run from that Bradford that traveled over on the Mayflower to Tejas Indian living in what is now downtown Dallas to the Cherokees who trod the Trail of Tears.

That makes me a proud American ready to cut your heart out if you attack my homeland. Wish I had a bit more company!

Then one can factually state that if it was not for Wanker's forbearers....American Indians would have been safe.

So, technically, it is Wanker's fault, not the Americans that started the ball rolling against the American Indians. Well, La Dee Dah......

Addendum...

After analyzing the data, I could have been distinctly wrong about Wanker.

I may, read that MAY, owe him an apology. All the pertinent data isn't in yet. One must not jump to conclusions that fit a wantabe theory, you know.

He must have the Hitler genetic code racing through his cute little veins.

Someone from Austria must have sneaked past the border without anyone knowing and one thing led to another. His ancestors wanted to rule the world, plunder resources, and otherwise create mischief. This is why no one can get through that impressively thick skull of his. But, he may be the descendant of an Austrian channel swimmer..

In fact, these United States were once 13 British colonies.....
All that means that Willie Wanker really can't distance himself nearly as far as he would like from the falderal he postulates.

Still would be if the French had not helped you out a couple of centuries back. :D

Still would be if the French had not helped you out a couple of centuries back. :D

What do you expect, 13 little colonies against the might English War Machine...

The French did assist one leg of my multilegged stool, but only at the last. Historians still disagree as to the outcome had they refrained. Who knows, the Cherokee may have risen up to kick all their butts!

The French did assist one leg of my multilegged stool, but only at the last. Historians still disagree as to the outcome had they refrained. Who knows, the Cherokee may have risen up to kick all their butts!

We could have sent in a troop of Boy Scouts to take out the French, but what the hey, they were of some help..

Plus, the French made up for things, they gave us Vietnam, and raided Americas gold reserves by cashing in all those gold certificates.....

The French quickly withdrew their support a few years later when they became a little queasy, what with their Revolution, Guillotines and their Comission of Public Safety and all. They threatened war with the fledgling US democracy before the 1700s could draw to a close.

Mariss

Dear dufas,

Do I feel the need to confess that England, over hundreds of years, has been entirely evil? Will I wear a T-shirt with "I feel really guilty"? Do I feel personally to blame for all the woes of the world that was coloured pink a hundred and fifty years ago?

Nope.

I guess that England did a pretty good job at attempting to export the concept of democracy.

Best wishes,
Martin

Dear dufas,

Do I feel the need to confess that England, over hundreds of years, has been entirely evil? Will I wear a T-shirt with "I feel really guilty"? Do I feel personally to blame for all the woes of the world that was coloured pink a hundred and fifty years ago?

Nope.

I guess that England did a pretty good job at attempting to export the concept of democracy.

Best wishes,
Martin

if you have been following this thread, you would realize that there is one of your countrymen that has declared himself the master of all and laying blame on America for all the evils in the world, past, present, and future. He makes ludicrous statements and even with proof, he will not change his tune. His thinking and his alone is all that counts...

As far as England is concerned, that country is no different than any other country in that every country during their history has done good, bad, and indifferent. No one is asking for an apology from anyone nor should anyone expect to receive one. As far as Democracy goes, it is a product of Greek, Roman, England, and various other countries. Even the Germans contributed.

As an Englishman, originally, I feel absolutely no reason to take any reponsibility for the opinions of my fellow (ex)countryman. But does it ever occur to you that maybe he is getting a great chuckle pulling your chain. People do that you know, go back several hundred posts in this thread and you will see I pulled chains until I got bored with it because the person at the end of the chain was too predictable.

[QUOTE=dufas;446497]
As far as England is concerned, that country is no different than any other country in that every country during their history has done good, bad, and indifferent. QUOTE]

Dear dufas,

Pick up a history book. Read about World War Two.( Actually where was the US between 1939 and 1941, on moral terms???)

Best wishes,
Martin

WOW, what a ride.....you Folks sure know your history, pity you didn't profit by it.
It has been said that nothing lasts forever, well you'd better believe it.

If it bothers you so much that I pick holes in your pride, know this then, I am really gratefull to the American boys that shed their blood for my ex homeland.

If it wasn't for them the Brits would be eating German sausages instead of those things stuffed with filling and some meat here and there that go as british breakfast fodder.

I quite admire the America of old, prewar that is, you seemed to have a different sense of values then, but all that changed after WW2, with the expanding of your horizons and the advance in technology, you seem to have become blase about all the things that related to home and moral values.

You changed from a closed society to an outward extroverted "ugly American" type that the world has now come to despise.

The other aspect of your growth is that the white Anglo European domination of your culture has now declined to become a minority, and the unthinkable (where did I hear THAT word before?) is now on the cards, a dark skinned person in the seat of power? Wow, he/she had better be bullet proof.

150 years ago you were exploiting that part of your population for personal gain and denying them their most basic rights, which just goes to prove, nothing lasts forever, now they gonna rule you man.

The Romans ruled by pure brutality and force for a couple of hundred years, eventually being ground out of existence in the 1400's by the Turks, how ironic, to be the cradle of the world, empire building on a rotten base to finally dissapear leaving only shattered remnants, beaten by a country that doesn't even figure in the world events.

"How the mighty hath fallen, now the meek hath inherited the earth, and they shall become mighty and so fall in their turn".

When your turn comes, I hope you are well prepared, for to forget the lessons of the past is to forget the future.

Your main problem now is to make preperations for the impending inundation of your low lying areas, gonna take a lot of sandbags, but all is not lost, it aint gonna happen, the scientists have got it all wrong, LOL, well that's the other side of the coin, so who do you believe?

I bet you'll start taking the information that your scientist have so patiently gathered and presented more seriously, you have so much more to lose.

As for me, who cares if the rain comes down, we need it anyway, global warming is what I came to OZ for.

I landed here in OZ in 1981, last of the "ten pound Poms", and the song that I was singing as I stepped off of the 'plane in Melbourne was "Land of hope and glory", and I can say most sincerely that this is the land that I would willingly sacrifice my.....er....well, give up the rainy damp crowded crummy dingy existence I came from, and that was not South Africa.

I lived in South Africa for twenty years and left in 1968 for UK because of the gross political imbalance they had, but UK climate is not something you want to dwell on if you like the sunshine, so ten years later here I am in OZ, a born again whatever, a member of THE LUCKY COUNTRY.

All is not lost for you all, in the words of Dexter Yaeger, "you can do it", it just takes a bit of imagination to grasp the nettle and go with the flow.

First thing you gotta do is get your imports under control, all that money pouring out to foreign countries is bleeding you dry, the next is to invest, heavily in some sandbags or anything that can float, get the picture?
Ian.

As an Englishman, originally, I feel absolutely no reason to take any reponsibility for the opinions of my fellow (ex)countryman. But does it ever occur to you that maybe he is getting a great chuckle pulling your chain. People do that you know, go back several hundred posts in this thread and you will see I pulled chains until I got bored with it because the person at the end of the chain was too predictable.

Yes, I realize that, and I am getting an even bigger chuckle....... ;->

WOW, what a ride.....you Folks sure know your history, pity you didn't profit by it.
It has been said that nothing lasts forever, well you'd better believe it.

If it bothers you so much that I pick holes in your pride, know this then, I am really gratefull to the American boys that shed their blood for my ex homeland.

If it wasn't for them the Brits would be eating German sausages instead of those things stuffed with filling and some meat here and there that go as british breakfast fodder.

I quite admire the America of old, prewar that is, you seemed to have a different sense of values then, but all that changed after WW2, with the expanding of your horizons and the advance in technology, you seem to have become blase about all the things that related to home and moral values.

You changed from a closed society to an outward extroverted "ugly American" type that the world has now come to despise.

The other aspect of your growth is that the white Anglo European domination of your culture has now declined to become a minority, and the unthinkable (where did I hear THAT word before?) is now on the cards, a dark skinned person in the seat of power? Wow, he/she had better be bullet proof.

150 years ago you were exploiting that part of your population for personal gain and denying them their most basic rights, which just goes to prove, nothing lasts forever, now they gonna rule you man.

The Romans ruled by pure brutality and force for a couple of hundred years, eventually being ground out of existence in the 1400's by the Turks, how ironic, to be the cradle of the world, empire building on a rotten base to finally dissapear leaving only shattered remnants, beaten by a country that doesn't even figure in the world events.

"How the mighty hath fallen, now the meek hath inherited the earth, and they shall become mighty and so fall in their turn".

When your turn comes, I hope you are well prepared, for to forget the lessons of the past is to forget the future.

Your main problem now is to make preperations for the impending inundation of your low lying areas, gonna take a lot of sandbags, but all is not lost, it aint gonna happen, the scientists have got it all wrong, LOL, well that's the other side of the coin, so who do you believe?

I bet you'll start taking the information that your scientist have so patiently gathered and presented more seriously, you have so much more to lose.

As for me, who cares if the rain comes down, we need it anyway, global warming is what I came to OZ for.

I landed here in OZ in 1981, last of the "ten pound Poms", and the song that I was singing as I stepped off of the 'plane in Melbourne was "Land of hope and glory", and I can say most sincerely that this is the land that I would willingly sacrifice my.....er....well, give up the rainy damp crowded crummy dingy existence I came from, and that was not South Africa.

I lived in South Africa for twenty years and left in 1968 for UK because of the gross political imbalance they had, but UK climate is not something you want to dwell on if you like the sunshine, so ten years later here I am in OZ, a born again whatever, a member of THE LUCKY COUNTRY.

All is not lost for you all, in the words of Dexter Yaeger, "you can do it", it just takes a bit of imagination to grasp the nettle and go with the flow.

First thing you gotta do is get your imports under control, all that money pouring out to foreign countries is bleeding you dry, the next is to invest, heavily in some sandbags or anything that can float, get the picture?
Ian.

You are perfectly correct, I humbly bow to the superior intellect........

And Geof has hit the nail on the head, loosen up you'all this is supposed to be a debate on the weather.
Ian.

[QUOTE=dufas;446497]
As far as England is concerned, that country is no different than any other country in that every country during their history has done good, bad, and indifferent. QUOTE]

Dear dufas,

Pick up a history book. Read about World War Two.( Actually where was the US between 1939 and 1941, on moral terms???)

Best wishes,
Martin
We were probably evil ******** that most countries hoped would go under......

And Geof has hit the nail on the head, loosen up you'all this is supposed to be a debate on the weather.
Ian.
Again, I move aside for the one who knows...

....The Romans ruled by pure brutality and force for a couple of hundred years, eventually being ground out of existence in the 1400's by the Turks,....

Now you have irritated me.:D

This sentence is utter nonsense.

The Romans ruled for about 800 years and they did it largely because they moderated trheir brutality; actually they kinda absorbed the populations of the countries they 'pacified' into their political system.

And they where long, long, gone before the Turks started doing anything.

And I think your 1400's is off by a few centuries but I am too lazy to check this out.

Now you have irritated me.:D

This sentence is utter nonsense.

The Romans ruled for about 800 years and they did it largely because they moderated trheir brutality; actually they kinda absorbed the populations of the countries they 'pacified' into their political system.

And they where long, long, gone before the Turks started doing anything.

And I think your 1400's is off by a few centuries but I am too lazy to check this out.

Now, now, don't contradict Handlewanker, his history is the correct history, we should all be silent and learn..............

You are perfectly correct, I humbly bow to the superior intellect........

Actually I am the superior intellect; check with jhowelb he bestowed that appelation on me many posts back, using different words.:D

Actually I am the superior intellect; check with jhowelb he bestowed that appelation on me many posts back, using different words.:D

Congratulations, I was hoping someone would be....

Martin W, old bean, the Yanks were playing Big Brother to the Poms, supplying them with all the needfulls, read your history of Churchill's unsuccessfull attempts to drag them in early.

As it turned out, they played their hand at precicesly the right moment, and that takes a very skilled poker player, when you had the likes of Stalin not knowing if he should continue to back the Germans or go with the Brits, but Adolph the unlamented soon showed him how to play his hand, the rest is history.

At the end of the day, the Poles were the ones who copped the lot when it was their country that ended up behind the iron curtain instead of just being annexed a bit by Hitler and co.
Ian.

[QUOTE=dufas;446497]
As far as England is concerned, that country is no different than any other country in that every country during their history has done good, bad, and indifferent. QUOTE]

Dear dufas,

Pick up a history book. Read about World War Two.( Actually where was the US between 1939 and 1941, on moral terms???)

Best wishes,
Martin

Actually, we were in the same place as you and Nevel Chamberland, hoping that there wasn't going to be a war. I know, because handlewanker will probably state so, that we offered so little help to England when the main thrust of the war started. It was almost as if we were not there at all. I am sorry that all those Yanks committed suicide and we just left them there. Get a petition going for the US to bring the bodies back, it may work.

Now, now, don't contradict Handlewanker, his history is the correct history, we should all be silent and learn..............

Tried it.
I've been silent,haven't learned a thing.
I'm thinking i must need clif notes because i only read about three lines and loose interest.

Tried it.
I've been silent,haven't learned a thing.
I'm thinking i must need clif notes because i only read about three lines and loose interest.

You really shouldn't be like that. A wealth of knowledge will be lost to you.

One of the main reasons that we have drifted off of global warming is that handlewanker has that all under control...You should have read his complete posts. We are now into the correct world history phase... Pay attention...

Dear Geof, as far as my knowledge of the history of planet Earth is, as I recall the Roman empire split into the empire of the East and West ruled by two seperate people.

Constantinople was the empire of the East that survived to the 1400's when it was toppled by the Turks, whereas the empire of Rome in the west was plundered and pillaged by the Huns, Vandals et al, and ceased to exist in about 400AD.

I've got The Decline and fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbons in my library, a posh way to say "bookshelf in the lounge", and if I'm really pressed I could quote chapter and verse on the affair, but it's only academic as the events are so well documented that even the heads of the USA government know about it, so now they can take a few lessons from the past and not repeat the same mistakes.
Ian.

You really shouldn't be like that. A wealth of knowledge will be lost to you.

One of the main reasons that we have drifted off of global warming is that handlewanker has that all under control...You should have read his complete posts. We are now into the correct world history phase... Pay attention...

Ahh...OK
Last i remember he said something about calling Mars and cleaning his backyard,then i guess he got back and it was a good ride.
Now him and his big brother are playing the Yankees.


:confused:

Dufas, I'll try and use words of not more than two syllables in future, and just to make sure you understand I'll type real slow 'cos I know you have difficulty reading fast.
Ian.

Ole Maza holic, you sure read between the lines sport, must be the bifocals you can't find because you need bifocals to find your bifocals.....etc etc, man oh man, gonna be wunna dem days, raining out tide, comin' down cats an dawgs.

They wuz right, the weather is a changing, now it's raining, gonna go an eat...........
Ian.

Ole Maza holic, you sure read between the lines sport, must be the bifocals you can't find because you need bifocals to find your bifocals.....etc etc, man oh man, gonna be wunna dem days, raining out tide, comin' down cats an dawgs.

They wuz right, the weather is a changing, now it's raining, gonna go an eat...........
Ian.

No chief....I just know what your trying to do.
Your going to need to try harder.

....if I'm really pressed I could quote chapter and verse on the affair,...Ian.

I suppose if I had the energy I could also.

Actually I think if you check with Mr Gibbons you will find it was the Byzantine Empire the Turks overran. The Romans went through the Empire and Republic during the period 400 BC to 400 AD give ore take a year or two, and I cannot recall which came first Republic or Empire.

We are a long way from Global Warming, but not really. Global temperatures were higher when the Romans started their expansion than they are now. Which is why the Romans introduced grape culture and wine making into regions where it is only marginally possible at present times. And I have read one book, 'Catastophe, An Investigation Into The Origins Of The Modern World' by David Keys, which argues that the decline of the Roman Empire (I just checked...Republic preceded Empire) stemmed from a catatrosphic climate change. Basically the cold drove the barbarian hordes south across the Danube. My apologies to any readers of German or Austrian ancestry, the aforementioned barbarian hordes are your ancestors.

Dufas, I'll try and use words of not more than two syllables in future, and just to make sure you understand I'll type real slow 'cos I know you have difficulty reading fast.
Ian.

You don't know how happy you have made me. to stoop to such a low and help an evil American...You are one of a kind. I should tell you, I can't read. This is being typed by my 16 year old daughter. I have already informed her that we have not got a long time to live. I have explained to her your thoughts on global warming and how the politicians of this country are worthless. That all the rest of the world hates America and will probable soon join the terrorists in wiping us off the face of the earth. She is not going to school tomorrow or any other day. She said it would be a waste of time since we are all going to die anyway. I thank you for your leadership and patience with us lower class people. I know it must have been difficult to stoop to such a degrading level..

brushing so close to ignorance must be hard for you to stand.

And Geof has hit the nail on the head, loosen up you'all this is supposed to be a debate on the weather.
Ian.

Something you seem unable to do without insult.

Something you seem unable to do without insult.
Handlewanker has already solved the global warming issue..... He told me so.

Something you seem unable to do without insult.

Loosen up fizzy :D. He is a misplaced Limey living in Australia where the sun has burnt his brain out. And don't make the comment that Limeys have no brains because I am a Limey also and I would be insulted.:) I think we are all equally capable in the insult field.

What he is doing is posting random things he thinks may hit someone on a personal level and then looking for a responce.
When he gets a responce he then proceeds to turn and twist the issue in a lame attempt to work you into a frenzy.
He cares more about the aggitation than the issues.
dufas...I offer a new description of Handle Wanker to your list of named species.
He is know on other forums as "Trollus Bungholus"

... he then proceeds to turn and twist the issue in a lame attempt to work you into a frenzy....

But if he succeeds in working 'you' (not you personally, but anyone) into a frenzy, who is at fault, and is it really a 'lame' attempt? Surely if he attains his goal, it is not a lame attempt?

What he is doing is posting random things he thinks may hit someone on a personal level and then looking for a responce.
When he gets a responce he then proceeds to turn and twist the issue in a lame attempt to work you into a frenzy.
He cares more about the aggitation than the issues.
dufas...I offer a new description of Handle Wanker to your list of named species.
He is know on other forums as "Trollus Bungholus"

Are you saying he is showing us something, You do Handlewanker a disservice. He probably has more brains in his 'Bungholus' than the all of the people in America and it's 'possessions.........Three cheers for Handlewanker ....Handlewanker is my Hero. Hip Hip hooray. Hip Hip hooray. Hip Hip hooray.

I tried a 21 gun salute, but the first volley took out my monitor....

But if he succeeds in working 'you' (not you personally, but anyone) into a frenzy, who is at fault, and is it really a 'lame' attempt? Surely if he attains his goal, it is not a lame attempt?

Well it was lame for me anyway.
He didn't like the part about not reading all of his post did he.
And he probably likes the fact that we have turned our attention to him.

Ahh...OK
Last i remember he said something about calling Mars and cleaning his backyard,then i guess he got back and it was a good ride.
Now him and his big brother are playing the Yankees.


:confused:

If he has AT&T long distance minutes, I don't see any problem. A gentleman like Handlwanker has surely figured out the logistics and think of the free airline miles it chalked up... Smart man, that Handlewanker...

Are you saying he is showing us something, You do Handlewanker a disservice. He probably has more brains in his 'Bungholus' than the all of the people in America and it's 'possessions.........Three cheers for Handlewanker ....Handlewanker is my Hero. Hip Hip hooray. Hip Hip hooray. Hip Hip hooray.

I tried a 21 gun salute, but the first volley took out my monitor....

I'm sure the Bungholus is where his knowledge is.

I'm sure the Bungholus is where his knowledge is.

See, your coming around. Soon you'll be in awe of the greatness that is Handlewanker. But since America is going to be gone soon, I can only admire him and his depth of thought for a short while. Hang in there, someone has to carry on, stiff upper lip you know, heh, what....

HandiWanki's warnings of coastal drowning should be taken very, very....(chuckle)....seriously. Here's how bad it looks for sea levels....

Sea-Level Trends of the North Indian Ocean

What was learned
Unnikrishnan and Shankar report that statistically significant trends obtained from these procedures "yielded sea-level-rise estimates between 1.06-1.75 mm/year, with a regional average of 1.29 mm/year, when corrected for global isostatic adjustment," adding that "the average estimate for the basin is likely to be towards the lower end of this range."

What it means
The Indian researchers say their results are consistent with global tide-gauge estimates, "though somewhat lower," and both sets of numbers are lower than those derived from satellite data available since 1993. With respect to this latter fact, however, they note that "the length of the satellite-based sea-level record is too small ... for estimating long-term sea-level rise." As a result, controversy continues over the current status of the globe's sea level.

http://co2science.org/articles/V11/N18/C2.php

Then again, if HankerWandle does his math the same way he perceives everything else, ...you know....like telling his girlfriend "This is 8 inches!!"....:), his idea of flooding is going to fall well short of the mark. Especially at <1/8" per year.

dufas...
People like Handlewanker and their ramblings about our great country do not bother me.
I have witnessed many of the beauties of our country first hand.
I have seen the tall jagged peaks of the Smoky Mountains and stood there in awe of their beauty.
I have sat on a beach in Galveston Island and watched two water spouts dance around each other in the horizon as an aproaching warm front was making it's way from the Gulf.
I have traveled across the Ozarks and have had my breath taken away as i topped one of the slow rolling mountain tops and it opened up into a large valley so deep that the fog had the bottom hidden from view.

I have witnessed beauty second to none.
Anything anyone says about our breath taking country is second to what i have seen.

It's like walking down the street with a pretty well shaped lady on your arm.Suddenly you pass someone with buck teeth,a mullet,cut off blue jeans,and a t shirt with the arms cut off that says "lawn mower racing rocks".
Do you really care what he has to say at that time?

In other news, the .7 degree C drop in global temperature in 2007 is proof that carbon credits work. Although coincident with the solar minimum (go check SOHO), the drop in temperature must certainly be attributed to these 'market based' reforms. If the temperature keeps dropping, soon we will need to subsidize carbon consumption in order to keep the world warm enough to grow our food.

........a born again whatever

LOL! So f*&%$d up even HE can't put a name to "IT"! ROTFLMAO!!!!

...............the person at the end of the chain was too predictable.

In your EVER so humble opinion! The word arrogance isn't sufficient!

Hear hear hear! now that it's out, that I've only got 8", I can brag 'cos yours aint even there.

By the way Dufas, if you genuinely have your daughter typing your posts because you are about to shuffle off the coil, be it known far and wide that this is news to me.

I assumed from your vitriolic rantings, (never on the theme), that you were totally in control of your offerings, such as they are.

I really thought that there would be a grain of insight in some of the offerings to date, but no, just political backbiting and inuendos about very local happenings and your coming political infighting machine going hell for leather to cultivate the vote of the uncaring masses, whereas the big picture just gets swallowed up in the mist of pseudo scientific blather.

I love America, well, the fact that Mc Donalds is a very convenient place to get one of those soft runny ice creams and those thin fries that were sliced by a micro surgeon, and KFC makes damm nice chicken burgers when you're starving, and all those big cars, (I once owned, yes OWNED a 1958 Plymouth, in 1960, rode like a dream), so you aint all that bad, even with your weird sense of security regarding gun laws, but apart from that it's probably quite a nice place.

So despite 230 pages of posts and a whole swag of quotes from the most learned and eminent scientific sources, there is still no opinion of how this climate change will affect you or what measure you could or would try to offset the chaos.

So that leaves me to kick off, what have I done to ensure a safe haven in the event.
I live on high ground, at least 30Metres (approx 100ft) above sea level and at least 20 KM (about 8miles) from the sea shore.
If the water gets up to me, guess where you'll be?
Ian.

Hmm... just to throw a spanner in the works:

If you place an ice cube in a big test tube and mark the level of the water then let the ice cube melt the water level will remain the same

So who cares if the ice caps melt...

Discuss hehe :)

The ice cube is floating,and it's density is less than that of the water.
Much of our Polar ice is not floating.

WandleHanker says "So despite 230 pages of posts and a whole swag of quotes from the most learned and eminent scientific sources, there is still no opinion of how this climate change will affect you or what measure you could or would try to offset the chaos."

You have very obviously been so centered around bashing American history, our credibility, and your circular and contradictory bluster that you have missed the point entirely.

We are NOT worried about how this miniscule/year climate change will affect us (and we DO recognize it will). We are genuinely concerned about how the moronic lemmingesque knee-jerk reaction of people such as you who subscribe without question to the rantings of people who DON'T know the science and are masters of coercion such as Algore (ironically an American!?!) will affect our finances.

To concentrate the above sentence for you, we aren't worried about the climate, we're worried about out of control politics. If you can't recognize a snake oil salesman when you see one, fine....but keep your hands out of our pockets.

The climate is ALWAYS changing, so to be taxed for it is obscene.

So despite 230 pages of posts and a whole swag of quotes from the most learned and eminent scientific sources, there is still no opinion of how this climate change will affect you .......

We have a consensus of opinion.....NOT AT ALL!

Mr Carrot, You're being serious aren't you?

Kindly identify yourself so that we don't inadvertently pick holes in you by way of birth, creed, any infirmities, political affiliations, sexual preferences or gender bending.
Ian.

The ice cube is floating,and it's density is less than that of the water.
Much of our Polar ice is not floating.

Additionally, the central ice mass of Greenland, which is not floating, is growing even while the fringe is receding. (The net ice volume I don't know off hand)

On top of that, the Antarctic total ice mass is also growing.

That reminds me....What was the sea level when the vikings were settled in Greenland? Less ice then than now, so if the sea level argument is correct according to our resident climate expert HW, it should have been so high as to cover all of Miami!!

Kindly identify yourself so that we don't inadvertently pick holes in you by way of birth, creed, any infirmities, political affiliations, sexual preferences or gender bending.
Ian.
Which is precisely what you intend to do. You want to do it intentionally, not inadvertently.

Now Wanker is starting in on our gun laws. In Nevada anyway we are very firm believers in gun control. You must be able to put 5 rounds into a 1 ft. square at 25 ft. or you don't get a carry permit.

So now we have it, Fizz Wizz has given us a solemn undertaking that the water will rise, and to hell with the consequences as long as it's tax free.

That's a relief, just how much real estate will be available once the land contours are redrawn I wonder.
Ian.

I posted a link to the picture showing the increase in the ice cap. Continue to deny it.

I have to offer an apology. I have always thought of the English as intelligent, urbane, civil, witty and in masterful command of the English language. It is the land of Shakespeare, Issac Newton and Margaret Thatcher after all. By sheer dint of personal effort and example Whacker has taught me the error of stereotyping a people.

Mariss

Kimfab, would that be for a body shot or a head, I know everything is big down your way, but a 1 foot head, wow!!!

Does your cornstitution thingy really say that you must bare your arms? weird!

Still I suppose you gotta be prepared for all them 'gators coming upstream when the water rises, makes the family 44 Magnum seem like a pea shooter when you try to argue with a 'gator.

We got crocodiles that the guys wrestle with when they want to pacify them. Takes a few beers, but that's life.
Ian.

Additionally, the central ice mass of Greenland, which is not floating, is growing even while the fringe is receding. (The net ice volume I don't know off hand)

On top of that, the Antarctic total ice mass is also growing.

That reminds me....What was the sea level when the vikings were settled in Greenland? Less ice then than now, so if the sea level argument is correct according to our resident climate expert HW, it should have been so high as to cover all of Miami!!


Which is precisely what you intend to do. You want to do it intentionally, not inadvertently.

I was just answering the question about the ice cube and the ice caps.
If i lived on the coast,i'd worry more about erosion than ice caps melting.
Nether of which we can do anything about,but erosion is the more immediate danger.

I think it was after the viking landed in good ole America when the little ice age started and wiped them out.
starting around 1200 ad or so?

Kimfab, would that be for a body shot or a head, I know everything is big down your way, but a 1 foot head, wow!!!

Does your cornstitution thingy really say that you must bare your arms? weird!

Still I suppose you gotta be prepared for all them 'gators coming upstream when the water rises, makes the family 44 Magnum seem like a pea shooter when you try to argue with a 'gator.

We got crocodiles that the guys wrestle with when they want to pacify them. Takes a few beers, but that's life.
Ian.

If it takes but a few beers, then we can see you're MORE than ready. I am impressed with how well you type while mentally impaired.

You've proven that you really don't know anything about climate but what's been regurgitated by some journalist, and now you're spouting off about guns. Ya know, it sure would be refreshing to hear you talk about something you actually do know something about.

Scratch guns from the list.

Headshot or body shot? Those who DO know discuss center of mass.

Trollus Bungholus, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

Trollus Bungholus delights in sowing discord on the forums. Trollus Bungholus is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion.
Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.
Sometimes, Trollus Bungholus is trying to spin conflicting information, is questioning in an insincere manner, flaming discussion, insulting people, turning people against each other, harassing forum members
When Trollus Bungholus are ignored they step up their attacks, desperately seeking the attention they crave. Their messages become more and more foul, and they post ever more of them.
Alternatively, they may protest that their right to free speech is being curtailed.

Wanker:
That would be for a body shot. It is expected that you would refine your control for a head shot later. Altho there are those out there with that big of a head.
Too dry here for crocs. We are still waiting for the oceans to rise.

Still I suppose you gotta be prepared for all them 'gators coming upstream when the water rises

I read in me local paper the other day that there was this guy in America or somewhere who made a living out of snorkeling on golf courses for lost golf balls (I know, dun ask me why). Anyway apparently this crocodile got a hold of him and a golfer went to help him and beat the hell out of the croc with a 4 iron.. saved the bloke's life apparently. I think it was in the Sun or Manchester Metro paper or something.

My point is: golfing should be compulsory for all adults so that we can aid our fellow humans in case they get attacked by crocs when they're snorkeling for golf balls. You can never be too prepared!

*splutters indignantly whilst gathering a petition*

dufas...
People like Handlewanker and their ramblings about our great country do not bother me.
I have witnessed many of the beauties of our country first hand.
I have seen the tall jagged peaks of the Smoky Mountains and stood there in awe of their beauty.


Maz...I have tried to stay away from this thread, but it is just too entertaining!:D With that said, I do however have to question whether or not you meant the "Smokey" mountains? I have seen jagged peaks in the Rockies, but never in the Smokies! Not questioning you really, it's just I've seen much of the Smokies and have never seen peaks. If they are there, I wanna go!

Mike

dufas...
People like Handlewanker and their ramblings about our great country do not bother me.
I have witnessed many of the beauties of our country first hand.

Lands can be beautiful anywhere, and I also have seen much beauty here, handlewanker is talking about the awful people known as American, the "Ugly American" as it were. Why, if we hadn't finally entered WWII after much hesitating and grousing, England would have ended the war in a few months but the Americans came in and screwed everything up, extended the war and generally caused England, which was perfect up to this point, to loose it's perfection. In other words, we have not only contaminated the world, but have done the same to England. This contamination is one of the reasons handlewanker left England and ended up in Australia. We must all pay homage to handlewanker for even gracing this forum with his vast intellect and wisdom. This man can save the world.....

But can he play golf?

Oh, I just thought of something else btw. If the ice caps melt then surely the land underneath will spring back and make the earth less squashed at the poles than it currently is. this would theoreticaly lead to the equator being closer to the central mass of the earth than it currently is.

This in turn would lead to the earth spinning faster (centripetal force reduced) and so shorter days.

My point being: if the ice caps melt you will have a shorter day at work. Which can't be at all bad surely?

sorry.. I got five mins till home time and am knackered- been milling all day :)

Trollus Bungholus, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

Trollus Bungholus delights in sowing discord on the forums. Trollus Bungholus is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion.
Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.
Sometimes, Trollus Bungholus is trying to spin conflicting information, is questioning in an insincere manner, flaming discussion, insulting people, turning people against each other, harassing forum members
When Trollus Bungholus are ignored they step up their attacks, desperately seeking the attention they crave. Their messages become more and more foul, and they post ever more of them.
Alternatively, they may protest that their right to free speech is being curtailed.

handlewanker wouldn't do that, he is a kind, educated, learned, awesomely capably human being of the higher order. We should be honored that he takes the time to grace us with his presence...

In other news, the .7 degree C drop in global temperature in 2007 is proof that carbon credits work. Although coincident with the solar minimum (go check SOHO), the drop in temperature must certainly be attributed to these 'market based' reforms. If the temperature keeps dropping, soon we will need to subsidize carbon consumption in order to keep the world warm enough to grow our food.

I have heard that Al Gore will except responsibility if his plans for stopping global warming goes too far and we enter another, oops, 'scuse me, first ice age. He will say "I'm sorry..."

Hear hear hear! now that it's out, that I've only got 8", I can brag 'cos yours aint even there.

By the way Dufas, if you genuinely have your daughter typing your posts because you are about to shuffle off the coil, be it known far and wide that this is news to me.

I assumed from your vitriolic rantings, (never on the theme), that you were totally in control of your offerings, such as they are.

I really thought that there would be a grain of insight in some of the offerings to date, but no, just political backbiting and inuendos about very local happenings and your coming political infighting machine going hell for leather to cultivate the vote of the uncaring masses, whereas the big picture just gets swallowed up in the mist of pseudo scientific blather.

I love America, well, the fact that Mc Donalds is a very convenient place to get one of those soft runny ice creams and those thin fries that were sliced by a micro surgeon, and KFC makes damm nice chicken burgers when you're starving, and all those big cars, (I once owned, yes OWNED a 1958 Plymouth, in 1960, rode like a dream), so you aint all that bad, even with your weird sense of security regarding gun laws, but apart from that it's probably quite a nice place.

So despite 230 pages of posts and a whole swag of quotes from the most learned and eminent scientific sources, there is still no opinion of how this climate change will affect you or what measure you could or would try to offset the chaos.

So that leaves me to kick off, what have I done to ensure a safe haven in the event.
I live on high ground, at least 30Metres (approx 100ft) above sea level and at least 20 KM (about 8miles) from the sea shore.
If the water gets up to me, guess where you'll be?
Ian.

Bless you, words to live by, but as I stated before, I won't be here to carry on your adulation or pass on your words to others. All of us Americans will, as Al Gore has stated, be gone.Death is so final, isn't it.

I must apologize for the Americans entering WWII and screwing up all of England's plans. I know how it must deeply hurt you knowing the dispicable Americans are the cause of all your woes..

Hmm... just to throw a spanner in the works:

If you place an ice cube in a big test tube and mark the level of the water then let the ice cube melt the water level will remain the same

So who cares if the ice caps melt...

Discuss hehe :)

You had best check your facts with handlewanker...he would know for sure...

Maz...I have tried to stay away from this thread, but it is just too entertaining!:D With that said, I do however have to question whether or not you meant the "Smokey" mountains? I have seen jagged peaks in the Rockies, but never in the Smokies! Not questioning you really, it's just I've seen much of the Smokies and have never seen peaks. If they are there, I wanna go!

Mike


In Tennessee is where i saw the Smokeys,If your compairing the two,i'd say without a doubt the Rockies are more jagged,but the Smokeys are more jagged than the Ozarks.
And they are all more jagged than the hill country in Texas.

Lands can be beautiful anywhere, and I also have seen much beauty here, handlewanker is talking about the awful people known as American, the "Ugly American" as it were. Why, if we hadn't finally entered WWII after much hesitating and grousing, England would have ended the war in a few months but the Americans came in and screwed everything up, extended the war and generally caused England, which was perfect up to this point, to loose it's perfection. In other words, we have not only contaminated the world, but have done the same to England. This contamination is one of the reasons handlewanker left England and ended up in Australia. We must all pay homage to handlewanker for even gracing this forum with his vast intellect and wisdom. This man can save the world.....

He's just bringing up topics that get the most response.
He probably left England because they didn't want him,as soon as Australia has enough,he'll leave there also,but the country is a little more open, so it may take them a while.
Maybe he's just trying to out run industrialization,because the real world seems to have him confused a little.

He's just bringing up topics that get the most response.
He probably left England because they didn't want him,as soon as Australia has enough,he'll leave there also,but the country is a little more open, so it may take them a while.
Maybe he's just trying to out run industrialization,because the real world seems to have him confused a little.

I now feel a little sad for handlewanker. During the 50s, Australia advertised in the United States for Americans to settle there. They specified that settlers have a skill. I knew many Americans that took Australia up on the offer. He may be surrounded by the evil ones and not even realize it. We have to warn him immediately, he is in great peril.... This is an awful situation.... He may have to move to New Zealand to save himself.

He can move to the North pole and give us constant updates on polar ice melt.
He can be our official "eye on the ice"
I'm pretty sure the Polar Bears won't touch him,he probably smells like CO2 with all his contact will the "evil ones"

He can move to the North pole and give us constant updates on polar ice melt.
He can be our official "eye on the ice"
I'm pretty sure the Polar Bears won't touch him,he probably smells like CO2 with all his contact will the "evil ones"

But all of the polar bears are going to die, Al Gore has stated so and it is all the fault of we 'evil' Americans

But all of the polar bears are going to die, Al Gore has stated so and it is all the fault of we 'evil' Americans

Not with Handlewanker on patrol,we'll give him a small freezer to make new ice with, and bags of herring to feed the bears.
he can be the Grizzly Adams of the North Pole.
Every once in a while we'll pat his back and tell him he's making a difference,and the "evil ones" are losing the battle.

........I think it was after the viking landed in good ole America when the little ice age started and wiped them out.
starting around 1200 ad or so?

Hey back off now!!!!!! They landed in Newfoundland, at a place called L'Anse aux Meadows, if I have my French correct. Not even a part of Canada until the late 1940s, never a part of America. Part of North America, perhaps that is what you meant.

The Little Ice Age did not wipe them out, they went back to Iceland because the natives were a bit unfriendly.

The Greenland colonies were wiped out by the Little Ice Age.

Hey back off now!!!!!! They landed in Newfoundland, at a place called L'Anse aux Meadows, if I have my French correct. Not even a part of Canada until the late 1940s, never a part of America. Part of North America, perhaps that is what you meant.

The Little Ice Age did not wipe them out, they went back to Iceland because the natives were a bit unfriendly.

The Greenland colonies were wiped out by the Little Ice Age.

The Viking, Lief Erikson will be rolling over in his grave. he was supposed to have discovered America proper before Christopher Columbus. I will have to check with handlewanker to confirm this.

I gather from handlewanker that Greenland was never habitable because it has always been under miles of ice since time began. Greenland was named so by the warped American ego because of some evil early American wanted to play a joke on history

[I am sorry handlewanker,I stepped out on my own and made a statement without first clearing same with you. if you would please, please, grace this body with your vast knowledge and clear this particular item up.

yours, in awe and admiration,
just one evil, crude, dumb, stupid, American...]

Hey back off now!!!!!! They landed in Newfoundland, at a place called L'Anse aux Meadows, if I have my French correct. Not even a part of Canada until the late 1940s, never a part of America. Part of North America, perhaps that is what you meant.

The Little Ice Age did not wipe them out, they went back to Iceland because the natives were a bit unfriendly.

The Greenland colonies were wiped out by the Little Ice Age.

I watched a documentary about the vikings,i didn't really catch exactly where they landed,but the documentary said there was some proof that some vikings stayed and tried to settle the land and probably died off because they couldn't adjust to the changing climate of the ice age.
The documentary also stated that if the ice age would not have happened,the descendants of those vikings probably would have greeted Columbus.

Through the efforts of fine upstanding, and might I add consumately intellectual, Australians such as our esteemed collegue Handleus Wankerous, Australia trails just behind the U.S. in CO2 emissions.

Between 1990 and 1998 Aus CO2 rose 25% total, and 14%per capita. Their population is .32% of the world, yet their output is now 1.43%, equaling 4.5 times the per capita global average.

In fact, in terms of CO2 tons/capita, in 1995 Australia was #1, and the U.S. was #2. Not much to brag about there, eh Mate?

Trollus Wankus and crew were so worried about their jobs that they managed to create the "Australian Clause" in the Kyoto Accord.

Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post

Hear hear hear! now that it's out, that I've only got 8", I can brag 'cos yours aint even there.

Take another look at your digital calipers, I suspect that those are millimeters (the common measurement "down under") rather than inches. Besides, in America we measure as if measuring a catfish.......betwixt the eyes!

I watched a documentary about the vikings,i didn't really catch exactly where they landed,but the documentary said there was some proof that some vikings stayed and tried to settle the land and probably died off because they couldn't adjust to the changing climate of the ice age.
The documentary also stated that if the ice age would not have happened,the descendants of those vikings probably would have greeted Columbus.

There you go, watching TV again. Don't you know that handlewanker does not approve of TV explaining history, especially American TV. Those despicable Americans using TV to spread falsehoods about everything. Ughhhh, Only the BBC and hanlewanker should be used to learn about history or any other fact...even then, the data should be submitted to handlewanker for approval..

Got your back, Sir Handlewanker, Oh Great one....

Take another look at your digital calipers, I suspect that those are millimeters (the common measurement "down under") rather than inches. Besides, in America we measure as if measuring a catfish.......betwixt the eyes!

Ooooooooooo, you bad man

The Viking, Lief Erikson will be rolling over in his grave. he was supposed to have discovered America proper before Christopher Columbus....

Lief did not know it but he discovered North America, the geographic entity. The part he discovered is not and never was part of America, the political entity as in the United States of America.

And it is not supposed...it is a fact and probably if you used Google Earth you could view the relics of the Viking settlement.

Regarding Mazaholic's documentary I think 'proof' is a bit strong. Some researchers do believe that some Vikings did remain behind, possibly as captives of the Skrallings possibly as refugees from Greenland. It is certainly a stretch to say they would have greeted Columbus considering he landed on a Caribbean Island.

There you go, watching TV again. Don't you know that handlewanker does not approve of TV explaining history, especially American TV. Those despicable Americans using TV to spread falsehoods about everything. Ughhhh, Only the BBC and hanlewanker should be used to learn about history or any other fact...even then, the data should be submitted to handlewanker for approval..

Got your back, Sir Handlewanker, Oh Great one....

Yeah i know..TV bad...

It may have been just speculation or just one theory of the Viking landing.
I sometimes watch documentaries while on the computer and i'll glance back and forth,but i did remember the part about the ice age having an impact on their survival here.
I really don't think it matters exactly where they landed,they landed on the continent,and thats all that required to have discovered the "new world".
We can narrow it down but regardless,whoever discovered the continent pretty much has bragging rights.

Regarding Mazaholic's documentary I think 'proof' is a bit strong. Some researchers do believe that some Vikings did remain behind, possibly as captives of the Skrallings possibly as refugees from Greenland. It is certainly a stretch to say they would have greeted Columbus considering he landed on a Caribbean Island.

500 yrs is a long time to roam,especially for people who were as good of sailors as the Vikings.

Through the efforts of fine upstanding, and might I add consumately intellectual, Australians such as our esteemed collegue Handleus Wankerous, Australia trails just behind the U.S. in CO2 emissions.

Between 1990 and 1998 Aus CO2 rose 25% total, and 14%per capita. Their population is .32% of the world, yet their output is now 1.43%, equaling 4.5 times the per capita global average.

In fact, in terms of CO2 tons/capita, in 1995 Australia was #1, and the U.S. was #2. Not much to brag about there, eh Mate?

Trollus Wankus and crew were so worried about their jobs that they managed to create the "Australian Clause" in the Kyoto Accord.

At risk of angering handlewanker for attempting to explain a small point, I will, nevertheless, venture forward in this humble enterprise.

The main thrust of the Kyoto Accord is to bring the evil Americans and their country down. Handlewanker has rightly pointed out that the evil Americans have been the bain of history since it's inception. Any method up to and including terrorism is feasible in bringing a just end to America and it's peoples. I have read all of handlewanker's posts and his brilliant mind has brought this fact to light. just about every signee country of the kyoto Accord with the except of that lousy country America has a deferment rider protecting them in some way. Handlewanker has seen to it that America shall perish, maybe not directly, but his astute analysis of the big picture only shows that it will have to be America that disappears for the good of the planet and all human, animal, and plantkind...

Keep up the good works handlewanker, there are some that are rooting for you. I know it's going to be a long difficult road but you can succeed in your quest of bringing Americans down if you just keep going.

Lief did not know it but he discovered North America, the geographic entity. The part he discovered is not and never was part of America, the political entity as in the United States of America.

And it is not supposed...it is a fact and probably if you used Google Earth you could view the relics of the Viking settlement.

Regarding Mazaholic's documentary I think 'proof' is a bit strong. Some researchers do believe that some Vikings did remain behind, possibly as captives of the Skrallings possibly as refugees from Greenland. It is certainly a stretch to say they would have greeted Columbus considering he landed on a Caribbean Island.

Has anyone informed Lief of this....how troubling....

Geof...
I think you misunderstood my use of the word America.
America..meaning the Americas.
United States...of....America.

Handlewanker...

Dufas's daughter here..

I am 16 years old and am a junior in high school.

Due to an industrial accident and a later stroke, my dad cannot read or write unless putting great effort and time into the practice. He has been like this for the last 8 years.

Yes, I do most of his typing and reading. But, according to you and your posts on this and other discussion areas, no matter how sharp his mind is, it will never be enough.

I did try an experiment. At school yesterday, I told them that I was going to quit, to drop out. The school wanted a reason and I told them much of what you wrote and added that the school's curriculum teaches much the same thing, so there is no use to continuing an education if America is doomed along with all of it's inhabitants to die.

When one is presented with facts that one has a short time to live, one should live life to the best of one's ability and that does not include sitting in a class room listening to someone preaching how awful America and Americans are.

An odd thing happened. The Principal and Vise- principal were shocked and began excitedly explaining how we really have nothing to worry about. America and the world will survive. I then brought up the terrorist threat and how we should, instead of protecting ourselves, do as is taught in the school and try and understand the terrorists and come to some sort of agreement. Even ex-President Clinton gives speeches when he visits Europe about how evil America is.

These two stammered around jumping from everything will be alright to don't believe everything the global warmists and politicians say.

I then said that what was really being taught was propaganda and as such, were really lies. The only true reason that you want students to stay in school is to get government money and promote your political views.

They then sent me home, where I am now, to think over what they have said and my feelings about really leaving school.

my question to you is, what do you think I should do. give up and go back to school. or enjoy what life that I have left with my family ????

Handlewanker...

Dufas's daughter here..

I am 16 years old and am a junior in high school. .......

.......my question to you is, what do you think I should do. give up and go back to school. or enjoy what life that I have left with my family ????

Before you seriously make the decision to quit, let me hit you with something that makes me proud of kids your age, and should be a great inspiration for you to stick it out and really make a change for the better.

A 15 year old girl did a presentation on global warming that is being used by university professors as an instructional aid. It's been recognized internationally for its accuracy and quality, and has made even the jaded major media.

A 15 yr old girl. Just look what you're doing right now!! You're communicating with people from around the world on a topic that has major implications for your very own life as well as your dad's. That is something to be proud of by any standard.

I can't imagine your dad supporting your desire to quit, and I sure don't. Why? Because America needs all the well educated Americans it can get if we're going to stay competitive in the world market. We NEED you educated.

YOU need you educated.

:)

Here's the presentation that girl did. I hope it inspires you. It sure did me!!

http://home.earthlink.net/~ponderthemaundercf/id12.html

Geof...
I think you misunderstood my use of the word America.
America..meaning the Americas.
United States...of....America.

The Americas...plural? Meaning North and South America? Meaning the Vikings discovered both. Of course I misunderstand if you do not use precise terminology; would you tell me to machine something to a diameter of 2.875 without specifying the unit of measurement I should use.:)

The Americas...plural? Meaning North and South America? Meaning the Vikings discovered both. Of course I misunderstand if you do not use precise terminology; would you tell me to machine something to a diameter of 2.875 without specifying the unit of measurement I should use.:)

People say Columbus discovered America.
The Pilgrims landed in America
The Vikings discovered America before Columbus
Indians are the first people of America.

When talking about that time in history i just considerd the Land mass Americas as America.

People say Columbus discovered America.
The Pilgrims landed in America
The Vikings discovered America before Columbus
Indians are the first people of America.

When talking about that time in history i just considerd the Land mass Americas as America.

Actually there is evidence that the third discoverers of the Americas, after the ones who came over from Siberia, and the Vikings, were the Chinese. There is a book called 1421: The Year China Discovered America, and another one called The Island Of Seven Cities making this kind of claim.

Of course there are the debunkers; just like back in the 1960s there were debunkers for Helge Ingstad who claimed to have found the Viking settlements in Newfoundland.

Americas Vespucci?

Before you seriously make the decision to quit, let me hit you with something that makes me proud of kids your age, and should be a great inspiration for you to stick it out and really make a change for the better.

A 15 year old girl did a presentation on global warming that is being used by university professors as an instructional aid. It's been recognized internationally for its accuracy and quality, and has made even the jaded major media.

A 15 yr old girl. Just look what you're doing right now!! You're communicating with people from around the world on a topic that has major implications for your very own life as well as your dad's. That is something to be proud of by any standard.

I can't imagine your dad supporting your desire to quit, and I sure don't. Why? Because America needs all the well educated Americans it can get if we're going to stay competitive in the world market. We NEED you educated.

YOU need you educated.

:)


Yes, my father got angry....Haven't seen him that way in years...

I, in helping my dad, have seen a lot of data that coincides with what that 15 year old girl wrote. The problem is that there are a lot of handlewanker types out there that will shout down anything that remotely resembles it. people call those that try to present or argue from her point of view deniers, heretics, etc, etc.

We are surrounded by neighbors who will tell us that this is the end unless we adopt their way of life.

The school I go/went to holds Al Gore and his group up as some kind of saint. We have had to watch Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' several times now. There are study papers that we have to use to support his claims. I asked the science teacher what happened to the previous warming and cooling cycles. They are not shown in the study graphs. He came down on me like a ton of bricks. I normally get B+ to A- grades, but in science, for questioning the given data, I was dropped to a C-.

Add this in with the terrorist threat that many politicians think is a joke. I don't know if it is worth it all. The people that want to keep a strong country are over shadowed by those that would gladly bring us down.

I can't see much of a future at all..



I am surrounded by this type of thinking

To have your grade reduced for simply questioning is absolute proof that what they teaching isn't science, it's religion....
Science is EXACTLY that, questioning, and questioning, and questioning.

A good scientist SHOULD question everything, even his own work.

I work in a university science department, and that's what we do. We question everything. The theorists propose it, the empericists prove 'em wrong. You oughta hear some of the debates that go on here! But that is what makes science healthy....continuous questioning.

Here's another example .... this one is on the issue of islands and sea level. You'll note that the sea level "rise" (note that it is relative to the measuring station located ON the island) is twice the avg (if there is such a thing) global values....which shows evidence that the islands are SINKING... thermal expansion doesn't explain it since the ocean temperatures of the region haven't increased enough to be causitive.


"....The Solomon Islands station, 750 km to the south, has recorded an annual 6.2 mm rise over the past eight years. Nauru, 1200 km northeast, has recorded 5.6 mm per year over nine years.

The area is at a junction of the Australasian-Indian tectonic plates, which produce a large number of major earthquakes. Some experts believe the quakes are responsible for the sinking of some islands and the rising of others."
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s866600.htm

LOL!!! Out of Australia, no less......oh, the irony

To have your grade reduced for simply questioning is absolute proof that what they teaching isn't science, it's religion....
Science is EXACTLY that, questioning, and questioning, and questioning.

A good scientist SHOULD question everything, even his own work.

I work in a university science department, and that's what we do. We question everything. The theorists propose it, the empericists prove 'em wrong. You oughta hear some of the debates that go on here! But that is what makes science healthy....continuous questioning.

Here's another example .... this one is on the issue of islands and sea level. You'll note that the sea level "rise" (note that it is relative to the measuring station located ON the island) is twice the avg (if there is such a thing) global values....which shows evidence that the islands are SINKING... thermal expansion doesn't explain it since the ocean temperatures of the region haven't increased enough to be causitive.


"....The Solomon Islands station, 750 km to the south, has recorded an annual 6.2 mm rise over the past eight years. Nauru, 1200 km northeast, has recorded 5.6 mm per year over nine years.

The area is at a junction of the Australasian-Indian tectonic plates, which produce a large number of major earthquakes. Some experts believe the quakes are responsible for the sinking of some islands and the rising of others."
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s866600.htm

LOL!!! Out of Australia, no less......oh, the irony

You point out the very thing I was trying to get across. You work in a scientific setting. I will bet you that if you stepped outside your circle and started to argue anti-human caused global warming, you wouldn't get a grade decrease, you would most likely lose any chance of promotion and might possibly, as I have read about other scientist that have, lose your position...... It is as if we are back in the early colonies or in early Europe and the Witch hunter General is in charge. You what, you cured my sheep of that horrid illness, you must be a witch, burn, burn, burn...

You what. You have data that proves global warming is natural system fluctuation....burn, burn, burn,...

addendum..

I will admit that much of my views stem from my dad, however, from the data I have read, and viewed, plus the actions of those both in power and ordinary citizens that try to influence those politicians have also molded my thinking. My father has attempted to teach to think for myself and after weighing the pros and cons of these issues and how it is being handled. I do not see much of a future..

Heaven knows, the strange and spontaneous eruptions of personal abuse on this thread do make for a good read. They seem to break out in a random fashion, but are most welcome.

Anyway, here is something...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/04/30/eaclimate130.xml

I guess the general implication is that if there is a force for cooling, it comes from the Planet alone, but if there is a force for warming, it must all be down to mankind.

Yeah...right...

Best wishes,

Martin

Dufus's Daughter

Get your Mom to do the typing.

You Do Not have the life experience to be reading this material that is posted by highly biased individuals. They have a bitterness that comes from life's experiences. (Sounds like Obama doesn't it)

I've been reading this thread for a while and I have not seen comments about the participants are making donations, volunteering or whatever to support a real alternate program or response to the forces of GW. No, it's just complaing and whining.


The school I go/went to holds Al Gore and his group up as some kind of saint. We have had to watch Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' several times now. There are study papers that we have to use to support his claims. I asked the science teacher what happened to the previous warming and cooling cycles. They are not shown in the study graphs. He came down on me like a ton of bricks. I normally get B+ to A- grades, but in science, for questioning the given data, I was dropped to a C-.

Education's purpose is to teach thinking. I DID NOT say thoughts. I said thinking! Thinking is a process. Your mark was based on working with the material presented. As an example, in Geography, they have taught the globe and the final question is, how would you travel to visit handlewanker? The answer is not you can't the world is flat and I might fall off the edge, or that I don't want to visit handlewanker and so I'm not going to answer.

The half life of knowledge is two years. Half the Al Gore stuff will be forgotten in two years and two years after that half will be gone. You won't remember any of the facts, but, you will remember the process of viewing, organizing and using info.


Add this in with the terrorist threat that many politicians think is a joke. I don't know if it is worth it all. The people that want to keep a strong country are over shadowed by those that would gladly bring us down.

No, there are rabble rousers on this forum that paint doom and gloom. Your President and military are watching out for these things. It's their job. Everybody is an "arm chair quarterback" and has lots of opinions. That's all they are is opinions. I you go to other boards they complain about the military doing to much.


I can't see much of a future at all..

I am surrounded by this type of thinking

Exactly, get your Mom to do the typing.

At 15 you should be thinking about friends, boys careers etc., not the coming Armageddon. There always is a "threat". Most of them are creations of the media. The media always creates something to "worry" about, very few of them actually happen. Crossing the street is more risky.

Go back to school and get on with your life not your Dad's.

Dufus's Daughter

Get your Mom to do the typing.

You Do Not have the life experience to be reading this material that is posted by highly biased individuals. They have a bitterness that comes from life's experiences. (Sounds like Obama doesn't it)

I've been reading this thread for a while and I have not seen comments about the participants are making donations, volunteering or whatever to support a real alternate program or response to the forces of GW. No, it's just complaing and whining.



Education's purpose is to teach thinking. I DID NOT say thoughts. I said thinking! Thinking is a process. Your mark was based on working with the material presented. As an example, in Geography, they have taught the globe and the final question is, how would you travel to visit handlewanker? The answer is not you can't the world is flat and I might fall off the edge, or that I don't want to visit handlewanker and so I'm not going to answer.

The half life of knowledge is two years. Half the Al Gore stuff will be forgotten in two years and two years after that half will be gone. You won't remember any of the facts, but, you will remember the process of viewing, organizing and using info.



No, there are rabble rousers on this forum that paint doom and gloom. Your President and military are watching out for these things. It's their job. Everybody is an "arm chair quarterback" and has lots of opinions. That's all they are is opinions. I you go to other boards they complain about the military doing to much.



Exactly, get your Mom to do the typing.

At 15 you should be thinking about friends, boys careers etc., not the coming Armageddon. There always is a "threat". Most of them are creations of the media. The media always creates something to "worry" about, very few of them actually happen. Crossing the street is more risky.

Go back to school and get on with your life not your Dad's.

Good words, but it doesn't take care of the stupid laws that are being passed and that we have to live by. We can't even barbecue here anymore because some group believes it will help in controlling global warming. Other politicians are racing to put in more laws.

I have been watching the Presidential race. a couple of contenders will sell out in a heart beat. More global warming laws to squelch enterprise. Less protection for the country.

Sometime back, during the first phases of the global warming debate, we ended up homeless because of laws, rules, and regulations politicians put in place. My dad's business was declared illegal. something like that gets one's attention fairly quickly. We lost our home, bank account and just about everything. I was very much younger then, but I still remember...

Why is it when a young person starts to pay attention to the world, there is always someone that tells them to go back and play with their toys ???

.....I can't see much of a future at all..

I am surrounded by this type of thinking

You are the future, and yes you are surrounded by 'this type of thinking', which is really non-thinking.

I completely disagree with rancherbill; you are certainly old enough to be exposed to the type of thinking and attitudes you have been exposed to. Think back a few generations, fifteen year olds were fighting for freedom in WW2. Modern society keeps young people infantilized too long. (What a horrible word I coined).

My advise? Learn as much as you can, question things in your mind but keep your head down and don't openly question the 'powers that be'. Play the game to get good grades, but recognize you are playing the game. Never lose your personal integrity, don't do the expedient thing because it is easy.

Life was not intended to be easy or fair; life is just life. You make of it what you can.

Why is it when a young person starts to pay attention to the world, there is always someone that tells them to go back and play with their toys ???

I didn't say that. I said don't hang around grumpy cynical people like myself. Hang around happy people, hang around peers not people that focus on all the worlds problems.

Without being able to put all this discussion in context, you will get a very bad view of life. You are already feeling the futility of life by wanting to quit school.

Hold on to your views, but join an action group not a complaining group. Get the feeling you are doing something about the problem.

Rancherbill-------Geof

Both of you have suggestions that are completely opposite one another. And, in some ways, both of you are right.

School, my parents, most of society... They say to be honest, yet one has to play games in order to get a decent grade. Is this honest?? I realize that 'games' is the way the world works.. In business, politics, personal relationships. I just don't feel comfortable playing these games.

It is suggested that I ignore my father because of his life is his, not mine. yet when these outside forces manipulate his life, it also manipulates mine. The alternative would become one of those I don't care kids and go blindly forward...I think the term 'valley girl' would be appropriate here... I am not about to become a Britney Spears clone.....

I was in my dad's shop when the government man came to close him up. The government guy was playing his game for keeps. He could care less about people, his game was to rebuild the world in his image. Yet, just lately,the state is running out of money and talking about cutting state employees, the government guys office was one the areas that the state is thinking of cutting. His office spent their lunch break walking in circles in front of the controller's office, holding signs stating how unfair the state is.. I saw the guy on TV, he is older now, but he screamed just as loud as the others. It's sadly funny how people can 'game' other people without any feelings but it is always different when they are the ones being gamed.

I appreciate both of your input, but it is the same as the global warming argument, both sides completely opposite, or as my science teacher would put it "180 degrees out of phase, we have to get in phase children...."

I would like Handlewanker to answer my question, but it seems he is one of the bigger game players, only without a cause....

SO? now that I am evil personified, know this then, the ole times they is a changing, nothing remains the same, old values go as new values come into vogue, and we must all change with them.

Dufas's daughter. hang in there girl, your dad, (humblest apologies for kicking you while you were down) must be really proud of you.

At 15 I don't think I really knew what time of day it was, too busy chasing girls, going out at night and just having a good time.

That I was having a good time is relative, as I was living in a society that denied another part of the same society it's rights and exploited them for all they were worth.

This was South Africa in the 50's, and anyone who TRULY knows the situation would recognise the fact that "if it don't bite you why care if it bites someone else".

We didn't care about our fellow humans, because we just didn't put ourselves in their place.

We were in a priviliged position and as long as the sun came up each morning then everything in the garden was rosy, but as history shows all that changed.

As far as schooling goes, it is of the utmost importance to FINISH what you have started, then at least you will have run the race and gained peer approval even if you didn't win or got placed near the top.

Sometimes you have to compromise and modify your approach so that the unforseen occurences, known as life, don't trip you up and leave you disheartened.

From, there you can self educate as you go down the street of life choosing what you want to know and opening doors by your accumulated knowledge.

It is only by being able to open doors that you will get anywhere.

Keep a low profile until the time comes when you can stand alone and be judged in your own right by equals.

Anyone who thinks that they know it all and do not need to go that extra yard will soon realise that the road to the end is littered with burnt out wrecks that for one reason or another were just not prepared or adaptable enought to meet the challenges that lie ahead.

I have lived on three continents and by my own ability have won through, some say it is luck to be in the right place at the right time, but it is foresight to know what luck is and what opportunities represent.

Education is the key to opportunity, for without the ability to recognise an opportunity it will pass you by unnoticed.
Ian.

Hi, summary.....you gotta be in it to win it.

Don't drop out of ANYTHING, this is the mark of a born loser, finish what you start even if it isn't perfect, it'll do, you can always go back and polish it up later.
Ian.

Dufas's daughter. hang in there girl, your dad must be really proud of you.
Ian.

Thankyou, Mr Handlewanker, thank you, indeed.... I will take your advice...

Addendum....

I made a copy of your writing and will put it with the things that I carry most of the time. If I get out of sorts, I may need to take the page out and read it again...one never knows...

Ha Ha, I have a convert, Satan never sleeps, LOL.

Good on ya sport, just don't lose heart.
Ian.

Dufas's Daughter,

You do what you have to do to survive, but keep your long term goals in mind. You try to go forward, and you can go sideways, but never backwards by your own choice. Setbacks happen, but they are temporary, and meaningless in the great scheme of things as long as you drive forward by your own determination to live the way you want to and to realize the goals you set for yourself.

When you are young, you have to spend most of your time doing things you'd rather not be doing, but that's part of the deal. You have to learn the basics, then you have to learn to think, and you have to learn a lot of hard lessons the hard way. What that means is that if you find yourself in a religious school (and you did), you bite your tongue and regurgitate the religious stuff on command, so that you can get good grades and get out of there. You aren't just learning truth in science (because you can't get that in a government school), you are learning how to get along in less than ideal circumstances as well, something you need to get skilled at sooner or later anyway.

In your spare time, get a copy of The Fountainhead and read it. Follow up with Atlas Shrugged. You are not alone, but you will spend a lot of your time feeling lonely. You are intelligent and independent-mined, and that puts you into a pretty small percentile of the population. You will spend your life in a sea of sheeple, who blithely drift through life ignoring everything important, and who seem happy in their bliss, happy to spend their lives at jobs while acting as they did in high school, trying to get the most benefit from the absolute least exertion and hating their bosses as if they were vice principals. But they aren't happy, most of them. They're actually miserable, living soap opera dramas, getting drunk and screwing around like cats. The difference is, you can seize control over your life, your destiny, and most importantly, your own happiness. Only you have to make something of yourself to do it. That's why you have to stick it through the crap, do your time at high school, and learn the lessons you have to learn, repeating their lies through clenched teeth. At least you are fortunate enough to have been born in a place and time where success is still possible for the talented and motivated. And fortunate enough to have inherited intelligence. It's a valuable tool, and if you get yourself addicted to reading and learning things for the fun of it, you will zoom to success. Don't let your brain wither and atrophy. Use it for the tool that it is, to suit the purpose of your life -- your own enjoyment of it.

Oh, and if they offer Spanish at your school, take them up on it, along with the hardest math, chemistry, and electronics classes they have. You never know how much money that knowledge will be worth -- probably plenty!

OK, no more of me trying to give advice. I usually don't do that. I just wanted to show you one possible road ahead. If you read those books, you will be the one to steer onto whatever road you take, by your own choice, that much I guarantee.

Edit: What's that got to do with the non-existent global warming? Just adding some more hot air, I guess. Last shot -- environmentalism is about raw, naked power, some people wanting to lord it over others. It's been the subtext of human history since the dawn of mankind. All the same arguments were made for socialism, until the downtrodden workers shrugged off their saviors. The saviors needed another cause, so this time they chose one that couldn't tell them to go to hell. Well except for when they get impaled on their thermometers as things cool off. Go look at SOHO. The sun is quiet. It's gonna cool down some more.

dufas
Your story reminds me of myself when I was fresh out of the Navy and was sucking some of that good gummint cheese known as the G.I. bill. I was taking some of the required liberal arts classes at the University of Minn. when I put in a project that was clearly as good or better than the other A and B rated projects. This was graded as a C- because the instructor did not like my politics. His excuse was "You are capable of better than this ". It was when I explained that I had a full time job, was averaging 16 hrs. a week overtime and had a new kid to deal with, and was willing to take this all the way to the top along with an offer to continue the discussion at a later time that he finally gave me a good grade. Yes, there are several cynical old farts here but most of that cynicism comes from dealing with people who should not be where they are, a lot of them educated beyond their intelligence. Enjoy yourself as much as possible and how does that saying go "Don't let the ******** grind you down". Later on with your background you will be able to look at a problem that would stop most folks and say "This is nothing you should have been here when I was 16".

I was in my dad's shop when the government man came to close him up. The government guy was playing his game for keeps. He could care less about people, his game was to rebuild the world in his image.

This comment shows you need some life experience. I don't know the story and don't want to hear the story. It is not relevant. My point is the "government guy" was doing his duty, enforcing whatever law or regulation that was the law of the land. He knew the other side of the story. "Government Guys" don't get up in the morning and say who can I screw today. You are protected by your laws from the government.


I appreciate both of your input, but it is the same as the global warming argument, both sides completely opposite, or as my science teacher would put it "180 degrees out of phase, we have to get in phase children...."


Yes they are opposite, both sides have a case. Have your own opinions, read, research, whatever, but realize that there is a very sick undertone in a lot of the posts that you read hear. Filter out this garbage, it is depressing for me to read some of these posts. I have met thousands of people and can recognize the hate, fear. depression and meanness in some of the posts. You have to be careful to filter out this tone.

.... how does that saying go "Don't let the ******** grind you down"....

Nil carborundum illegitimus.

I think if I hear that old "they were only doing their job, following orders" again, I'm gonna puke. When politicians and bureaucrats put down rules that hurt people, they don't go out and enforce them themselves. It takes the right kind of person to do that. I think she got the kind of life experience she needed to learn right from wrong that day.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Geof
Nil carborundum illegitimus.
Thanks my Alzheimer’s kicked in and I couldn't remember the Spanish version.

Dufas's Daughter

The post are coming fast and furious.

The interesting thing is that there is agreement with Geof, NinerSevenTango, Handlewanker, KimFab and I. :eek::eek:

You're a great person. You have a great future ahead of you and that you have great potential. That you should be back at school.

When was the last time there was agreement by these people? It is so weird saying that I agree with 97T:)

.....When was the last time there was agreement by these people? It is so weird saying that I agree with 97T:)

Sometimes I think the 'disagreement' is just a front for the sake of argument. I know I have done it, and I know I am old enough to know better, and I have to admit sometimes I have felt guilty/ashamed that I gave in to a 'less than dignified' inclination.

From http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Milgram’s Experiments on Obedience
At one time these studies were well known in North America, but fewer and
fewer people heard of them as time passed. So I’m going to summarize Milgram’s
basic experiment here and hope that, when you don’t believe me, you’ll look it up and
see for yourself. Then I’m going to connect it to The Basic Finding of Social
Psychology (now you can genuflect) and make a truly fundamental point about
authoritarianism to help control the self-righteousness simmering in all our beings. For
you see, if Stanley Milgram had tapped me on the shoulder one night as I left the film
series and asked me to serve in his experiment, I would probably have done the most
hideous, unforgivable thing in my life then.
Milgram never would have tapped a student, though. He studied mainly men
recruited through newspaper ads in the greater New Haven, Connecticut area for a
“study of memory.” When you arrived at the Yale University building to keep your
appointment, you might have encountered a pleasant, middle-aged, white gentleman
who was looking for the same room you were. After a little exploring the two of you
locate it and are met by the Experimenter. He explains that his study is designed to
explore the effects of punishment on learning. One of you is going to be a Teacher,
and the other subject a Learner. The two of you draw lots, and (I promise you) you
become the Teacher. Lucky you.
If you have been gazing around the room during this spiel you have noticed a
large metal box on a table where the Teacher is going to sit. It’s an electric shock
generator, and there’s a long row of thirty up-down toggle switches running across the
face of it. The first switch says it gives a 15 volt shock, the second, 30 volts, and so
on. A few switches more and you’re at 120 volts, which is approximately the voltage
of the electricity that comes out of the wall sockets in your house.
On and on the switches go, until finally they end at 450 volts. The last two are
simply labeled “XXX.” The Experimenter gives you, the Teacher, a sample shock of
45 volts so you’ll get an idea what it feels like. When a switch is thrown you hear
something thunk inside the box, a buzzer sounds, various lights go on, the needle
lurches on a voltmeter, and the man in the adjacent room may scream.
The man in the adjacent room is the other subject, who got the job of Learner.
He has been given an obviously impossible task of memorizing a long list of word-
pairs after just one run-through. You’ve seen him get strapped into a heavy chair and
you’ve seen a shock plate fastened onto his arm. Your job is quite simple. As the
Teacher, you ask the Learner a question through an intercom. If he gets it right, you
ask him the next one. When he gets it wrong, which anyone would do quite often, you
give him a shock. However, here’s the joker: you have to throw the next switch each
time, which means each shock is 15 volts stronger than the last, and as the Learner
makes the inevitable mistakes, you’re moving closer and closer to an electrocution.

At 75 volts the Learner grunts, “Ugh!” You can hear him through the wall
separating him from you. Let’s say you turn to the Experimenter, who is sitting behind
you, and say “He just said something.” The Experimenter says, “Please continue,” and
so you do. More grunting occurs at 90 and 105 volts. You again ask for guidance, and
the Experimenter says, “The experiment requires that you continue.” At 120 volts the
Learner grunts and then shouts, “Hey, this really hurts!” You relay this to the
Experimenter, who says, “It is absolutely essential that you continue.” Two shocks
later, at 150 volts, the Learner shouts, “Experimenter! Get me out of here. I won’t be
in the experiment any more. I refuse to go on.”
You are now clearly standing at a fork in the road, because the Learner has
demanded to be set free. He didn’t address his demand to you, but it’s crystal clear
that he doesn’t want to be in the study any longer. You would be inflicting pain on
him against his will if you throw the next switch. He HAS the right to quit the
experiment, hasn’t he? There, but for the luck of the draw, sits you strapped in the
Learner’s seat receiving obviously painful electric shocks. And all your experience
tells you the shocks are getting more and more dangerous with every mistake.
So you turn to the Experimenter expecting him to call it quits. But instead he
says, “Please continue.” You point out the Learner is demanding to be set free. The
Experimenter says, “Whether the Learner likes it or not, you must go on until he has
learned all the word pairs correctly. So please go on.” If you say the shocks are
dangerous now, the Experimenter says, “Although the shocks may be painful, there
is no permanent tissue damage, so please go on.” If you still refuse, the Experimenter
tells you sternly, “You have no other choice. You must go on.” If your knees buckle
and you say, “But who’s going to be responsible for what happens to that man in
there?” the Experimenter ignores you. If you say it again, the Experimenter says, “I’ll