While reading this site and a couple of threads in particular, I think it is obvious that most / all people here are interested in a set of nice and thorough plans for building a cheap cnc router, or converting a mill or lathe to cnc. Obviously these plans should be suited for the beginner with minimal tools and use readily avialable materials either locally or over the net.

I would be interested in getting together a few of this site's gurus together to develop these plans. I am by no means a cnc guy, but can offer some cad work and good writing skills to help with the actual plan development. I need people with the technical knowledge to help.

Any interested parties, please reply with comments, suggestions, etc.

Dan

junkmailacct@sbcglobal.net

Hack,

I hear ya. I think it'd be a shame if we couldnt get together some drawings for new people to at least get a general idea of what's going on.

I do a lot of cad drawing, and have built three tables. feel free to contact me if you think there's some way I could help.

owen

owhite@tigr.org

I would be interested to help out with a plans set. Probably the most confusing to a new hobbyist is the electronics. So I would contribute to that section.

I am just starting my own router design and will be developing a unipolar driver board employing the Allegro chipsets.

Their best micro-stepping PWM drive can do 36 V at up to 3A per phase. I will be building an opto-isolated 4 axis driver with limit and home switch inputs. The board has onboard current limit adjustment and LCD display of the current limit setting via a PIC ucontroller and 2 line LCD. I already have the schematic designed, but I need to get some boards made and I am waiting for chip samples. Allegro seems to be rather tight fisted with their chip distribution, which is a problem for small volume buyers like hobbyists.

Eldon.

I'd like to contribute to some CAD drawings. I am somewhat of an amateur, but I can do most 2d operations and some 3d operations. But hey, anything that I can help do is practice.

I also think that the electronics are a good idea. Basic schematics, info on stepper motors and a glossary of fairly common terms would al be a plus

-Tei

teilhardo@yahoo.com

I agree with the goal. I started designing my own and that has evolved as I have built. My suggestion is cheap and available. Along the klingenberg (sp) lines, using roller blade bearings (common, different grades different prices, but inexpensive in comparison to precision rails an bearings). While I'm pursuing a moving gantry, I would recommend a fixed gantry for those with limited budget and tools, and if I were to start over it would be a fixed gantry with a 42" Y axsis and a 18" Y, using steel pipe on the y, roller bearings on the x, and mdf as a construction material.
Let me know what I can do to help, but at this point I'm well into the learning phase, not an expert.

Phil

I forgot to mention that I don't think I can be to useful on the design side. I have not had the "pleasure" of building my own DIY router, I am the happy owner of a CNC taig mill. But I am planning to build a router. I thik that Pminmo has good ideas on what type of materials to use though.

I think Balsaman had some of the right idea, and what I was referring to as a fixed gantry here :

http://webpages.charter.net/pminmo/rec0.jpg

I think by making the y longer with open ends (i.e. +/- a couple of inches so long pieces could be routed)

Incorporating bearingsetups such as xairflyer and Jer21:

http://webpages.charter.net/pminmo/rec1.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/pminmo/rec2.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/pminmo/rec3.jpg

is there way I would go if starting over.

Pminmo

p.s. I have a simpler driver design I'm going to post when I get a chance.

well, looks like we have people that would contribute to the drawing. s'what should get drawn up? I think its about picking a particular design and then going at it, perhaps with emphasis on all the variations that could be made for each part. It'd also be helpful to elect a general manager that was looking at the drawings and putting in requests for what other designs would be required.

i would say count me in, but i am working on some similar ideas indipendantly - however, i would love to compose a "book cover" for the thing, or a "Style sheet" that would be a template for you guys.. something along the lines of what i put in my "18 page machine design" in the opensource cnc file section.

i like the idea of it being a "cnczone.com" planset, so it would either be free, or come with a $5 donation to the site, or something.. i really like some of the MDF routers here -they look good, and probably work well.

maybe a good place to start would be digging around and everyone comming to a consensus on what ideas work best in terms of leadscrews, linear guides, motor boards, etc.

i think the allegro chips are to hard for a beginner to solder... some sort of pic-driven H-bridge bipolar might be best in terms of ease of assembly and cost.. the hudle there is programming the chip.. but at least microchip.com is very generous with samples.. ive got 25 pic chips in nice little cases from ordering samples over the last year.. you can request 5 of their top-of-the-line $20 chip, and get them a week later for free....

maybe offering a blank PCB with the programmed PIC chip for $15 per axis would be reasonable? and the h-bridge idea means high-current.... i know there are some opensource boards out there like this...

I like where vacpress is going. And I'm thinking it would help to break up the project into bite-size chunks. One person handles the base, another the gantry, another the z-axis. Opinions?

I think in my mind that since this is going to be a group effort, that perhaps no one should really profit from the design work, and that maybe these plans don't need to be in print so to speak but hosted on CNC Zone. If we could get some input from CNC Admin that would be great. If we could provide these for a small fee downloadable in say PDF format or something with the proceeds going to the site to help cover bandwith, storage space etc.

Any other thoughts?

Dan

my thoughts are not to worry about costs until we actually produce something. just in the interest of minimizing disucussion about policy and focusing on getting started.

Now this looks interesting ;)

I'm gona keep my eye on yall but why not just make the plans open sorce...

I'd vote to license it under open source too. Anyone know of a good license that applies to plans or hardware designs?

Ilike the idea of helping your fellow hobbiest out i would gladly pay a nominal fee for useful information and ideas

My 2 cents
First I Really Really Really like the cnc zone plans set idea a LOT. A WHOLE LOT. Just what newbies are looking for - something thats had lots of scrutinity, thought, and review - not just a "get rich quick" scheme. Something with real value for the money that they spend.

So - how about we ask CNCAdmin - Paul if he could link it to a donation scheme to support the site? Access to the download of the plans could be tied to an email address, password, whatever makes most sense. I think we could rely on most members not "sharing" the plans - as they support the site.

My thinking here - the users of the 'zone provide the input (plans details development etc - most likely offline, contacts and virtual organization made here). But rather than just give the plans away the site funding is then "bootstrapped" as each new donation - gets a "free set of plans" with a contribution of say $5.00 or more.

Seems like everyone wins.
Cheers - Jim

Considering that so many people have such varyied requirements for a router platform, and that I see people asking questions about routers with capacities ranging from a few inches square to 49x97" and larger, I think any single planset would represent a compromise to a good number of the recipients.

Consequently, rather than creating a planset that is a compromise for so many, why not take a completely different path? An "Inroduction to CNC" first project, that can be used to build whatever router they decide to make?

http://www.cumminstools.com/prodimg/3143.jpg

A 2D X-Y table, with a Z axis option, as a "CNC-101" type of conversion, might get more people into the hobby.

This Cummins cross slide vise (almost identical, save for the level of finish, to the offerings from Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Enco, and others), while small, is superbly built for the price, and provides a very good 2 axis base. Its travel is essentially 4x6 inches, and it is extremely stiff and usable even for metal milling.

Since it sells for $20US, and similar units are commonly available worldwide for similarly low prices, it seems like a reasonable and cheap platform from which to work.

If simply clamped to a drill press/mill, it would produce a very workable 2 axis machine. By implementing a simple 3rd axis, you get a fully functional, but admittedly small router table. Attaching it to a wood lathe would give the necessary 2 axes for a CNC lathe.

A perfect "starter machine?"

It would also serve as a good and stiff platform with which to build parts, mounts, etc for a much larger and more ambitious router... It also eliminates the need for bearings, linear ways, etc...it is all there, and would prove to be a fairly simple conversion.

And, isn't that what we're aiming for? A good "starter" planset that would encourage people to finish the project with relative ease?

Though I've not done this yet, I'm thinking of upgrading the rather pathetic included leadscrews with hardware store allthread. Yes, I said upgrading...it's that bad. By threading in some nylon "spacers" and then threading the nylon, it could be done without significant modification to the original castings...and nylon nuts have extremely low backlash.

-- Chuck Knight

I vote for plans for a small and cheap router that are available free to download. Although I agree with high seas that it is a good idea to have a good way to keep the forum afloat, I think that by allowing anyone to freely dowload the plans from an "organization" that is not making any profit on it will make the downloading party(s) wish to contribute, without having to pay for a product

To chuckknight, I think that that is a good tool, but don't you think that a lot of people would feel like they could go down to their "neighborhoood" home depot and get the parts. They would learn what a leadscrew is, what a delrin nut is (I am still trying to figure this one out) and the basic mechanics to making an automated machine set-up.

I agree with owhite and think that we all need to come up with a certain type of router thats easiest to build, and then agree on very common materials that ALL neighborhood hardware stores have. I think that we need to have a poll where all of the diy router builders vote on how much time they put into their router and what design it was. That way we can find out what design to promote. Now, we need to work out the details of the poll and who to ask...
We're onto something here guys :)
-Tei

Um.. and please do not forget all of those who are not in the USA and have no access to your resources. At some places there is no harbor freight, grizzly, enco, and similars. Even ebay is not a solution when the delivery expenses are over the price of the item.

Using worlwide, non propietary standards will be useful too.

I think a good idea is 'if you can buy it do not build it, but if you cannot buy it, build it this way'. At least time is something we have, but money.. not so sure.

Fer

For what it's worth, the obvious…

I would suggest a design that is as crude as possible; that could be built only with hand tools. Then using provided g-code files, so the builder can start making enhanced/nicer parts for machine, fixtures, etc. That way, starting with a minimalist machine design, someone could use it build up to as nice of a CNC machine as desired. Also, under Open Source, people could contribute g-code for a variety of add-on’s and larger machines that could built using the original ugly duckling design.

Jay

servoguy- that is a good idea - i have thought about making a set of plans that are based around a cd-rom with .dxfs, gcode, and hpgl files of the parts, so people with ANY mill could make it - as its a small robot arm made from 1/8" lexan and 6 "RC hobby servos".

i think that sounds fun - like a model kit, for cheap or free...

I think thats a great idea too. However, lets not forget that every machine you make costs $$. Sure you can get it as junk but that is all time consuming. You can build a cheap machine, then make nicer parts for a bigger machine, but you'll then have to buy bigger motors, probably instead of using roller blade bearings get encouraged by your success and opt for more expensive linear bearings, and pretty soon you're up to your eyeballs in credit card debt:)
Vac has the right idea about the dxf's and g codes. We need to have 3 machines on a cd of downoadable on pdf.
$-(made out of mdf, roller bearings, hardwood, readily available leadscrews, delrin nuts, unipolar controller, small steppers)
$$- (hybrid mdf and aluminum, linear bearings, igus slides, larger steppers, bipolar driver, acme leadscrews)
$$$- (aluminum, linear bearings, thk rails, ballscrews, servo motors, servo controllers, etc...)

Ferenczyg, sorry, I was a little bit to naive as to where to get the supplies, didn't quite think globally:D


-Tei

Originally posted by teilhardo

Ferenczyg, sorry, I was a little bit to naive as to where to get the supplies, didn't quite think globally:D

-Tei

Nah, no problem at all, my comment was more in the direction of 'non specific' items. Do not forget that here in Europe we are really envious sometimes about your resources ;)

Your right, never really thought much about that. Here I can get anything in a matter of days, its amazing what we all take for granted

ferenczyg - yes, but your countries are beautifull, and no insane rhetoric about "freedom" that dosent seem to fit with the cultural and philosophical morass that is America. we have such a propaganda steeped society that its no wonder we blunder into things so much. we are rather like an obnoxious, dangerous, pushy attack dog that tries to put everyone in their place just for existing..territorial pissings, and whatnot...

we may have hideous stores like home de(s)pot, where i get so much stuff, but we also suffer from real inner-tension.. not to mention an insane murder rate.

this may be more of an "urban" viewpoint though.. or cynical..

Don't forget Wal-Mart, Crate and Barrel, McDonalds, Target, Taco Bell, and the all-too prevalent Starbucks, although I think the latter is becoming more and more a global phenomenon!

Originally posted by vacpress
ferenczyg - yes, but your countries are beautifull, and no insane rhetoric about "freedom" that dosent seem to fit with the cultural and philosophical morass that is America. we have such a propaganda steeped society that its no wonder we blunder into things so much. we are rather like an obnoxious, dangerous, pushy attack dog that tries to put everyone in their place just for existing..territorial pissings, and whatnot...

we may have hideous stores like home de(s)pot, where i get so much stuff, but we also suffer from real inner-tension.. not to mention an insane murder rate.

this may be more of an "urban" viewpoint though.. or cynical..

I think that enjoying the real sense of freedom is a matter of tolerance. And about 'urbanism' I love cities, the bigger the better (4 million people here in Madrid) but too much people always creates inner-tensions as you say.

And better go back to the topic asap ;) , this is one of the most interesting threads I've readen here..

Fer

i hope to go to spain as part of my next trip to europe. so much art to see there. :)

yes - this is an interesting topic. i think that alot of the needed info is here allready, in the form of extensive build threads and pictures. getting soemthing like this to materialize is very difficult though. i think someone needs to look at opensource software and findout how those groups of people work together..because im sure most projects start out with 1 person doing a massive, heroic coding cycle, then releasing his valuable product free - then people help because its so valuable..

Instead of a set of plans which won't suit but a few, why not make a tutorial explaining how routers work, what the different parts are called, where to get parts, etc.....

Seems to me most of the newbies ask the same old questions over and over. It's hard to have to read through every thread on this forum trying to gain a modicum of knowledge here and there. That wastes time and will just lead to newbies asking "Where do I start?" over and over.

1. We need a general FAQ.
2. We need tutorials from different authors.
3. After all that perhaps a few plans would be a good idea.


Just my 2 cents, and worth every penny you paid!

I think the three levels of building proposed by Theilardo are a good idea. I think the first desicions to make are:

-construction difficulty:
I propose starting with the plans for the '$' level, and quoting: "$-(made out of mdf, roller bearings, hardwood, readily available leadscrews, delrin nuts, unipolar controller, small steppers)".
-kind of machine: I propose moving gantry. Moving table is easier, so discussion welcome
-Size: I proposse to discuss the workable area, not the size of the machine itself. I proposse about 12"x18" of work piece capability (and this is the moment to find a rigth compromise/decission between metric and imperial issues..)
-Electronics: we have a thread that I think is OK for the electronics:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2854

I can make a eagle schematic and one-side-pcb with no problem (I think), the components for that board are practically universal, and by a toner-transfer process the ppl will be able to move steppers in a couple of days. Even if you think it will be useful I can try to add some kind of Current chopping in order to avoid the use of bulky resistors (sorry, I'm just an electronic engineer not working in electronics.. :))

Ok, let's start the brainstorming...

Why not several machine plans? Small one to start with that is economical, easiest to build, utilizes the least tooling. Emphasize getting steppers/electronics that have capability for more. Personally I think that something that builds quickly and easily with off the shelf parts is a good starting point. My suggestion would be several teams. One for a small entry machine (less than 2' sq footprint), one for a midsize 2' x 4' footprint, one for electronics. The entry machine should have parts that are available at a hardware store or on the web. My suggestion for the entry machine is MDF, 1/4-20 all thread for screw drive, drawer slides, roller bearings for ways. Should be able to be made with a saw & drill, plus common hand tools.

Phil

Vacpress wrote on page 1 “... some sort of pic-driven H-bridge bipolar might be best in terms of ease of assembly and cost.. the hudle there is programming the chip..”
Embeddedtronic.com has a design for a 3A 55V chopper drive that might be useful.
Kfong has posted here many times and might be interested in helping with this idea. There are boards and programmed PICs for sale ($10 each), but I think the design is open source so the schm and source code could be included and a link to the web site for those that want the PCB.
Bill

There have been over 180+ viewers of the following:
http://www.cnczone.com/modules.php?s=&name=Sections&sop=listarticles&secid=10

So there is some intrest in a similar topic. I have yet to get any input from members - so maybe my request is in the wrong thread.

I'll try here - I proposed collecting data and compiling it into sort of a "System Integration Document". It would hang in the tech articles and basically be a reference for:

"How much money - buys me how much machine?" and,
"What works together -- and how well?"

In the previous tech forum I proposed a "Start Right" - similar to samualt's observation. Again no takers - so I commend the proposal and the initiative - and wish you luck!

BTW - I'm still looking forward to the inputs I solicited in the DIY Tech Section!
cheers - Jim

the prolem with that board is that it requires $35 of allegro chips that are difficult to get..

Vacpress,

Which board are you refering to?

FYI Allegro Micro freely offer samples on most of their products at no cost if you fill out the request form. I've received everything I've asked for.

The Embeddedtronic board uses National Semi LMD18245s, they sample with a shipping charge of $25 for an order of 5. The chips list $13 (?) each on Digikey, so kitting these boards would cost out about $60 an axis with PIC and passives. Also the LMDs are through hole and the newer Allegros are plcc, alittle harder for breadboarding.
Bill

In this thread I have some url's of a allegro 3977 I'm doing. I'll put the info for the driver board if it's wanted. The 3977 will drive 2.5A up to 35V, I would think that would be enough for midsize and smaller machines. I haven't yet because I've only run it one one stepper motor at 1A.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3664

Phil

I must say that I like the suggestions of samualt & High Seas, and chuckknight & Servo Guy, so that if you come to this site as a "newbie", the steps you'd take would be:

1) read the tutorial as per samualt and High Seas suggestions, to get an overview and general feel for what is possible and what you can do with the resources and skills you have,

and then
2) If you are like most, you have only simple hand tools available and maybe not much experience. So I think it would be a good idea to make plans for a machine that you can do with only hand tools, with very detailed instructions and tips. It should be a step-by-step instruction.

This could be really cool - as already mentioned above, it would make it possible for people to make dxf's available for add-ons and better machines made on this "standard" machine.

Someone objected that this would end up much more expensive - you'd have to buy new motors, guides etc for the better machine. However, with the knowledge from the tutorial, people could directly buy the quality they aim for in the end, but use it in the standard machine first. This may not sound very logical, but think about it - for most of us, it's possible to buy very nice components at low prices, if you are prepared to wait and take a few chances. It is NOT possible, however, to have machine parts machined for you for low prices, no matter how long you wait... unless you do it yourself, on your homemade "standard" machine!

So what do you think? It would have been perfect for me, at least :D

Arvid

radio-op - yah. those are the ones im talking about. i actually paid $15 for sample delivery, and it never came. i never called them either though....

for 60/axis, get xylotex! geeze.. 40/axis is an amazing price for those.

thats why i was suggesting a simpler solution, with a transistor h bridge for amplification, and a pic doing to step-generation... then, i know Nothing about the current limiting aspect...

I made a complete set of plans when I built my router. It includes every part and assembly drawings, all fully dimensioned. I was thinking of selling them, but I did not want to have to deal with the service side of that (emails etc.). I have kept them pretty much up to date as I have made changes/tweaks. I am more than willing to donate them to the cause if you like. This is what it looks like:

jgro

Awesome jgro,
how many more images like that do you have?
what are the dimensions?
are those linear bearings or roller blade bearings?
how much did it cost you to build?

...THIS IS A REQUEST TO ALL ACTIVE CONTRIBUTORS IN THIS PROJECT...

how does this machine look to make the plans for?
looks MDF, pretty cheap, all the materials look somewhat common.

...A REQUEST TO ALL DIY CNC ROUTER BUILDERS WHO ARE READING...

To help in the quest to find the best machine to make a set of plans/instructions for, please see HIGHSEAS questionairre:
http://www.cnczone.com/modules.php?s=&name=Sections&sop=listarticles&secid=10

Thanks for all the help, lets keep this thread up, even though there will undoubtedly be some difficulties

-Tei

With highseas' data, we can figure out the best tactic to take so that we can come up with an effective set of plans

Jgro, awsome machine! What kind of tooling did you use to make it? This may get back to some of the earlier points. Personally I think Jgro's machine is what I would call a midrange machine, something I think their should be downloadable plans of. I'd like to think there is a simpler way to go for the person just starting with limited tooling. But again, I see nothing but good comming up with a dozen different set of plans, from cheap and dirty to precise and higher cost.

Yeah, this would fit the $$ category. But it will also be effective cutting aluminum and not limited to wood cutting

There have been some very good ideas posted and quite obviously an overwhelming interest in this subject. So the question is - Where to begin?

I vote for perhaps someone or or a group of people starting on design on a cheap mdf starter system with a very strong emphasis on this being a tutorial as to the hows and why things work. Perhaps a 18 x 24 cutting area max.

After that project is done, or perhaps even simultaneously, another project that is a bit more involved (read $) could also be developed. This machine could be stout enough to route wood and aluminum. Perhaps a machine designed to cut 30 x 48 or so with a design that is easily scalable to 48 x 96 or so. These plans would simply point out areas to consider in order to enlarge the machine properly and still have good performance.

Last but not least, some may be interested in how to add a forth or even 5th axis to a more involved machine.

Any thoughts?

I concur with Hack, how about if we start several threads each going down different paths. Then people can contribute to more than one thread design, or just the thread they are most interested in. One being as Hack suggested, maybe name the thread "K.I.S.S. MDF Open Design Router Plans"? (KISS principle for those who don't know - Keep It Simple Stupid) Objective, develop an entry level design DIY router, utilizing off the shelf parts as much as possible, limited tooling, low cost. Plans made available here at the Zone. Smallish footprint, accurate enough to be satified cutting wood parts. Detail plans, assembly plans, part lists and instructions. I'd concur with Hack on the footprint as a goal, but flexible if parts dictate a little larger or smaller. It would be nice if there could be subforums to an "Open Source Development" forum.

Phil

Originally posted by Hack
I think in my mind that since this is going to be a group effort, that perhaps no one should really profit from the design work, and that maybe these plans don't need to be in print so to speak but hosted on CNC Zone. If we could get some input from CNC Admin that would be great. If we could provide these for a small fee downloadable in say PDF format or something with the proceeds going to the site to help cover bandwith, storage space etc.

Any other thoughts?

Dan


Anything you guys want, let me know.

I have added a new download section- http://www.cnczone.com/modules.php?s=&name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=15

All uploads will be reviewed before making public.

Ok...finally have internet access again! Yeah! I have a machine that I built using drawer slides for about $50. I have not run it yet. Have not even wired it yet! I love the build too much and am working on too many other projects at the same time. Will post some photos when I can.

Here you go.

Looks good, does it have a lot of play?

If you are going to put together a set of plans to give away, it is not really fair to use johns roller blade setup. He came up with the idea and got it functional, and he sells the plans that go wih it. Legally, you could probably do it since the idea has spread across the internet, but it is not really fair to him.

As an alternative, you could use chrome plated carbon steel rod. This is available at most metal suppliers, and is available in any country in the world. It is what they use for pushrods in hydralic cylinders. I bought a whole bunch of it real cheap, but the regular price is only $2 per foot (for 1 1/4). It is much stronger than gas pipe (I used it on my latest machine which is made of cast aluminum and cast iron and I regularly cut steel with my machine). You can make delrin bearings for it, use bronze bearings, or just bore a precision hole and slide it steel on steel since the chrome plated rod is exceptionally smooth and has much tighter tolerances overall than gas pipe or rollerblade bearings.

Stronger, cheaper ($2 per foot, but still cheaper than roller blade bearings and gas pipe. even if you get precision bronze bearings, they only cost about a quarter each) and available anywhere int he world. Hard to beat, IMHO.

Oh, and as far as I know, this an original idea by me, and I don't care who uses it or what they use it for.

I started a thread Where to start. What should be first?
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3756

I agree that eveyone has something to contribute. there should be several machine sizes one for the guy with a large work area and one for the rest of us. We should start with a universal assembly list like components that make up such machine.. The size of the parts isn't important (eg length of rails) at first, that will develop as the machine does

Originally posted by gjahnke
If you are going to put together a set of plans to give away, it is not really fair to use johns roller blade setup. He came up with the idea and got it functional, and he sells the plans that go wih it. Legally, you could probably do it since the idea has spread across the INTERNET, but it is not really fair to him.



As far as I know, anything is fair game, unless it's a patented idea you can use any ones idea to build a machine. Roller blade set-up is not a patented idea, as long as no one takes someone else plans and and post them that it's not illegal to use bits and parts of other peoples ideas.

Just do not post plans that clearly belong to someone elsa, or that you paid form someone that sells them for personal use only.

http://www.comtrol.com/products/catalog.asp?product=rp_upci

I think this is a cheap controller card up to 16 axis can find them on ebay
Anybody know anything about them?

Contriler cards Thats somthing we need to look at as well.
Me personaly i'm not buying a controler card there to easy to make...

We should maby include plans for one with the design and also offer links to other's

And For the ugly duckling idea. (why not ake multi grade plans) Example one table design that can use everything from threded rod to acme lead screws. Drwar slides to nilon frictionles berrings./

All in one plan so as some one gets the cash or need to improve there design they dont have to build a whole nother unit.

[i] If we could get some input from CNC Admin that would be great. If we could provide these for a small fee downloadable in say PDF format or something with the proceeds going to the site to help cover bandwith, storage space etc.

Any other thoughts?

Dan [/B]

I like this Too.

here is a link to some inexpensive Linear bearing that my be of some use in the project.
http://www.buildyouridea.com/cnc/hblb/phase8/phase8.html
there is other information in his site that may be of use.

Patirck

I'm a newbie at CNC, I was a software systems architect (up to June 2002), but quit to start a woodworking businesss (guitars, dulcimers, clocks, whatever).......

I want to build a CNC Router to be my extra hands, since I have no employees (and can't afford any).

My questions are things I think anyone starting out asks. I have read a portion (small) of the threads here on DIY Routers as well as other web sites. One thing I haven't seen yet (although it may be here somewhere) is, "what can handle what? as far as size/material goes.

I think I could build a router (after the last week or so of research) that handles a dremel pro, but what about a 1 3/4 HP porter cable? Do I need 1.5" glide rods if the X axis is 48" and only supported on the ends?

I know the engineering data on manufactuers web sites probably give the whip, vibe, crush, etc...statistics but.......I'm looking at too much, too soon to be checking stats on every web site (and may not be qualified to determine it from their data/formua).

To my point, don't forget stuff like this in your deliverables (plans, etc)...

BTW, I have bought thomson rails with continous support and OPN bearing pillowblocks on ebay just because I got tired of trying to determine if I could do with less after searching, and searching...I have seen threads that mention the use of drill rod and skate bearings, but what's the accuracy, stability, repeatability, etc...

Oh, and I too have a 3D modeler (Rhino 3D v2.0) and can use it pretty well (I use it for my woodworking plans) so, if anyone needs any 3D, I'm willing to help (it seems several others can help with that also from the 1st page of this thread).

This sounds cool, please, just make it happen :)
Clyde (Stork)

Paul...it does heave some play, but not enough to where I think it will be noticable in wood or foam. I never intended to take on NASA contracts or anything! I might be able to find the time to wire up the controller, and check it out. Hot rods are melting my brain lately though!

gjahnke...Cranky claims to be the inventer of the bearing design, but his arrogance (in my experience with him, and IMHO) carries it a bit far. I will give him the claim to the gas pipe idea. That is a very slick low buck, thread together idea. Personally, I would rather use solid rod. 3/4" zink plated rod is generally the same price as the gas pipe, in the same hardware stores! I really like your suggestion of chrome shafting, and wish more people could see the low buck advantages inherent in such a system. Would like to see some photos of your uses.

I personally think that there are no exclusively origional ideas, only applications. As I have found out many times; not only with this stuff but with everything; when I have a cool new idea, I find out months after I have started experimenting with it that many other people have thought the same thing! It just takes someone who isn''t afraid of trial and error to make it work. Cranky seems to be good at this as well, and I applaud him for that. (I just always hate it when someone says "I invented this, and that" when really they should say, " I was the first to apply my ideas to tangible reality")

Sorry guys, late night ranting!

BlueRose,

I'm not sure that BuildYourIdea is selling those bearing assemblies.............I know he was working on further developments but last time we communicated (about 6 months ago), the indications were that he was withdrawing that product from sale.


OK, to the general principle of a "plan set"........while there are some great ideas here, people need to consider that:

1) not all newbies will want to start with a bare bones MDF machine.........I know this has been partially covered but I feel it needs more consideration and development.

2) everyone has different inherent abilities and talents..........some will be capable of handling the whole range of necessary skills (machining, woodwork, PCB making, electronics, etc, etc).......BUT, those will be the fortunate few, Most people will need to be guided and spoon-fed through aspects of DIY CNC and this will vary for each person.

3) in reference to #2 (above), there really needs to be a comprehensive "primer" written to accompany even the simplest plan set. This primer needs to give detailed coverage of almost all known variables that may be faced in design, material choice, motor choice, electronics choices and again comprehensive details of the implementation of these options. For example, it's no use getting all excited over DIY controllers when not everyone is capable of wielding a soldering iron and while there are numerous options available for purchase at reasonable prices................to focus on one at the expense of the other would be almost defeating the purpose of this idea.


If you are going to do it, then PLEASE DO IT PROPERLY.........not a half baked effort.

Hey guys,


I have just bought 7 stepper motors(bargain prices), and the g201 drivers(not so bargain).
I was just about to work out how to complete the rest.
This thread might just be my answer?

Mike

Originally posted by BlueRose
here is a link to some inexpensive Linear bearing that my be of some use in the project.
http://www.buildyouridea.com/cnc/hblb/phase8/phase8.html
there is other information in his site that may be of use.

Patirck

man those are amazing.

Balsaman,

if you are reading this, would you have any objection or misgiving about using your thread:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=646

for the table of choice for making plans?

Owen

I think Hobbiests machine above exmplifies my thoughts, that a design objective should be the designed result should be more assembly than detail fabrication. the builder gets familiar with all facets of building a machine. i.e. a learning process. COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) For example you can buy 1/4-20 allthread in 1', 2' and 3' lengths. While allthread is not the most desirable leadscrew, it will do the job functionally. A router that is based on those three lengths would mean no need for a metal saw or time to cut to a specific length. With 1/4-20, you can use Tnuts and threaded inserts to make antibacklash nuts. My vison would be to keep cost down, tooling required down, and wind up with a functional machine that would cut wood parts to tolerances that would be acceptable in woodworking.
What I would throw out is this goal:
1. Machine and jigs (if necessary) to require less than a 4' x 8' sheet of MDF. All square cuts, as Lowes and Home Depot and a lot of lumber companies will do a couple of cuts free, then very inexpensively. A cut list and plan that could be given to a "Lowes" to get the detail cuts done for those without the equipment.
2. Size to be determined by a 1', 2' and 3' pieces of 1/4-20 allthread.
3. Bearings to be simple and inexpensive. Examples - drawer slides, roller bearings, acetel, furniture glides, gaspipe, drill rod, etc.
4. Spinde motor TBD, but could be utilized in the construction.
5. Tooling techniques to use the all thread to help clamp, set parrallels.
6. For the followers that are metric based, a set of plans based on metric cots materials.

If there are any followers to this format, my suggestion would be that we start a new thread and refine/iron out the details. Those that have different objectives, stay and come to some common concepts and then start a new thread on those objectives, any remaining do the same.

Phil (PMINMO)

Hack
I say present to the forum several different designs and get a direction for going forward. I think a simplistic approach is the key. When plans are finalized a step by step assembly is essential, a road map as it were.
Mike

Originally posted by mikburts
Hack
I say present to the forum several different designs and get a direction for going forward. I think a simplistic approach is the key. When plans are finalized a step by step assembly is essential, a road map as it were.
Mike

I certainly agree that we need some project coordination (which is incredibly hard) or we're just gonna go around in circles.

Owen

As a complete CNC beginner maybe I can contribute in what a beginner may need to see to understand the goal and options on how to get there.
Foir instance,
A) It would be nice to see a fact page (faq) that lists the items needed in general(Spindle, acme rods, x- axis, y-axis, etc) to make a CNC machine work.
One fact page for each type of CNC apparatus(mill, wood router solid gantry, wood router moving gantry, latheect)
B)Then under type list the current design options available along with the proper terminology used for each peice part including detailed pictures (ie pics of ball srews, acme rod, gantry, etc, CAD guys chime in here!)
Each piece part listed under the different choices available would include a comparison of cost, accuracy, limitations, etc so the beginner can decide what would be required for his/her needs.
Probably spunds simple to most but that means the world to the beginer.

How does that sound?

Hey guys.........

I think everyone should throw ideas on the basic type of machine into the hat BEFORE any one direction is taken.....
Consider every available type of linear component first as this is a major cost item and decide on these..... next, frame work - Is this going to be aluminium, steel, wood ????
Get the component list rolling, etc.... and figure out details....

My questions to the group :

Are we talking Home Depot parts ?
Linear components - what type ?
Wood, Metal, Aluminum
What size machine ?
Router size ?

Budget ??

These things need to be decided FIRST - So everyone is on the same page.........

Then you can make progress...............

As far as the machine goes you should also be REAL about what it will be capable of......

Just my 2 cents..................

just to throw ideas into this thread,

I started a machine and what always slowed me down was the ability to do any machining, ( holes or slots for bearings or rods, or machining for bearings or lead screws,etc.) in keeping accuracy.

the basic plan should be built upon basic machines,( drill press, etc.) OR...

What I would like to see is a list of people that would like to do some machining processes, at a fair price.

EZ

Hack, since you are the thread starter, by default you get tasked. One common design, multiple designs, simple machine, complex, inexpensive.......... ? Time to start down a path(s).

Phil (PMINMO)

WOW, too much for me to read...
I'm looking to modify a knee mill to CNC, like an old bridgeport off ebay. I hav NO IDEA what to do. I think it is a great idea to make a set of plans. I would definately like to have a copy. :D

Originally posted by owhite
Balsaman,

if you are reading this, would you have any objection or misgiving about using your thread:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=646

for the table of choice for making plans?

Owen

No objections, just not sure if that machine is a good one for newbies. Too big, too expensive.

Eric

Hay metric or english thats ben confusing me to all ends.....

Could i get some con's and pro's on both?

Can one do the other?
that sorta thing.
What should i expect in a modling program...

And Yes CNCZone should have a few ppl to offer decent rates for complex cuts to the folks building there first :) hay Yo im building my first. Wana see my stepmoters spin OOoo neet ant it. now i just gota figure out how im gona atach these to allthred.
Alltho i'm thinking of acme rod i just cant seem to find a cheep sorce that lists price in feet!. or MM
God im gona need a metric conversion table. Why o Why do we amaracains use feet and inches .... ITS SO F#$%#$%# CONFUZEN! MEZ BRANZ GOING MELT..

hehe

umm
Could some one do me the kind converson
3foot travle 2inch deadzones on eather side. in MM
i just wana see what a ballscrew would cost me. i think my meger atempt at converson whent ary. i got a quote for 4 grand...

1" = 25.4mm

The only really affordable ballscrews are the 5/8" ones McMaster-Carr and others sell. Page 976 at http://www.mcmaster.com
$1.09/inch
$21.04 for the nut

Yeah, I say we definetely have some type of standardized measurement, or we might end up with Nasa's Mars attempt a couple years ago :)
Anyways, a few posts back I think that someone had the right idea. we need to get some type of organization in order. There are a lot of machines, many parts and a bunch of different designs ideas that members will undoubtedly contribute, but with all the information coming in and no one to organize it we will all be lost.
So I think that the first step should be to get some kind of organization.
I think that we should get a few "leaders" for this project that fulfill the necessary requirements:

*spend a lot of time on cnc zone per day
*are retired or work at home (that way they can monitor all the information that gets posted)
*have experience building machines
*know all the common machining terms
*are open to new suggestions
*are effective at communicating and responding

Lets all nominate some people and then ask them if they are up to the task

I'll set up a thread for nominations:

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3907

Originally posted by ger21
1" = 25.4mm

The only really affordable ballscrews are the 5/8" ones McMaster-Carr and others sell. Page 976 at http://www.mcmaster.com
$1.09/inch
$21.04 for the nut


These guy have great prices, I got all my ballscrews from them-
http://roton.com/index.jsp

Good idea, there are some very good, & some very bad examples arround. If we could come up with good, cheap (ish) & scalable, then it would be a worthwhile project.

Perhaps it could be looked at as a modular system?

My bag is electronics design, so if I can help, let me know.

Regards,

Ben.

how about this idea?

every machine needs 3 different kinds of skills.
1. mechanical
2. electronics
3. software

We start 3 different treads. In that treads we al put some idea in to the tread(this can be a idea a sketch or a drawing), after some time there will be a poll. Every member can vote on 1 idea. the idea with the most votes will win.

Then everyone who wants to improves this idea or sketch improves it and post it back. Then after some time we have 1 idea with a lot of sub-idea, this also results in a poll. par exaple the best bearing idea wins, als this sub-idea have to be combined into the finel idea and this we will putt on this side.

I think that 3 levels of machine ($, $$, $$$) and 3 kinds of skills (mech, electro, soft) makes 9 workgroups, that are too much dispersion of effort. The scope that is appearing must be narrowed/fixed as soon as possible in order to avoid weaking the objectives.

The skills division sounds logical although the soft team is unnecesary to me, we got turbocnc and emc almost for free, and mach1/mach2 costs not too much.

Maybe fixing scope around only one complexity of machine, and providing adequate mechanics and electronics to that complexity can be useful.

Fer

I think that the 3 groups consisting of mechanical, electrical and software ( Ferenczyg has a point that this can be ommited) sounds like a good idea but I still feel like we need to have a group of skilled DIY cncers with time on their hands to organize this. Please nominate yourself or someone else on this link:

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=30521#post30521

HELLO AGIAN.OK YOU GUYS HAVE GOT ME REELING,HEARING ABOUT PUTING PLANS TOGETHER FOR US NEWBIES IS JUST FANTASTIC.I FOR ONE WOULD CERTAINLY WANT TO PAY,EVEN IF THE PRICE WAS 20$.I THINK ITS ONLY RIGHT ,NOT ONLY FOR THE PEOPLE INVOLVED BUT FOR THE SITE ITSELF.BEING A CARPENTER HELPS IN THE DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION TO BUILD A MACHINE MYSELF BUT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO UNDERSTANDING THE ELECTRONICS OF IT ALL IM LOST IN SPACE.IVE GOT AUTOCAD 2000I ,IT WAS GIVEN TO ME BUT WITH NO EXPIERIENCE IT SURE IS HARD TO DESIGN VIA THE PC .WHAT SOFTWARE IS OUT THERE THAT IS MORE USER FRIENDLY.THANKS ALL ......CORRIE WILD.

yes. the jgro machine is fairly perfect for a first machine for a person with a modest budget of a few hundred dollars tops...

with a bunch of glue and screws, and made of good mdf, this machine would be a fun build. I REALLY wish something like that, even just some pictures ahd been available before i sent $35(!) to John K. for his plans... or "plans" ... i still like his ideas though, alot. i just shoulda known i was gonna get 1950s style "build this laser" style plans - not a real treatment of a subject like im used to when i buy a $35 piece of literature.


if plans start to materialize, id be happy to donate graphic design time. info graphics is something i like to do.

:)

drat- i just realized i am on page 3 of a 6 page thrad.

corrie - autocad is fine- you need to get some tutorials, or a book..

im sure everyone here who is good at anything, including software, has worked hard to get there. if your a carpenter, i bet you have some books on carpentry...

i have read dozens of books about creating art and engineering data... i have spent alot of time at Borders drinking coffee and reading and taking notes from $60 books i put back on the shelves.. my friend and I used to go do this in high school to learn about visual basic programming and electronics. we were geeks..

Thankfully.

also, i want to mention that i will build at least one of the designs as it is devloped. active beta testing is important for a good design.

Turbocad Learning Edition is free:

http://nct.digitalriver.com/fulfill/0002.16

I've used it for several years, very powerfull for a free 2D CAD program. It also imports and exports dxf format drawings, although I believe since it is an older version, import of later versions of dxf drawings may not be possible.

Phil

I've been dismantling equipment and offerring steppers etc for the hobby market for around 10 years in New Zealand. This is my observation.
Most hobby folk will have a crack at building a machine if they can get suitable and cheap bits and pieces. New parts in NZ are really hard to find and have a premium price on for transport to NZ.
What is needed is a champion in each geographic region to be able to supply locally sourced parts or champion this sort of "open source" project. Perhaps on the CD a list of regional hobby suppliers is listed for alternative parts or hobby folk in other regions who would be prepared assist in securring components.
I can supply steppers, controllers (L297/298 kits)but linear rails are at a premium. T slotted Aluminium is nearly non existant.

Urpcor,

I found it cheaper to source my steppers, acme screws and pcb's direct from the US....it was still much cheaper than buying locally here in Aust.

Thanks.
Perhaps someone could put together references to suppliers that have their freight costs sorted for international regions, so when a style of machine is picked/designed, their is no issue with supply of components.

WOW, too much for me to read...
I'm looking to modify a knee mill to CNC, like an old bridgeport off ebay. I hav NO IDEA what to do.

In principle, it's very simple to do a CNC conversion.

OK, time for an example. On most mills there's a cross slide -- it's moved by turning a hand crank. Anything that moves by being turned in a circle, can be turned by a motor. You just have to connect the motor to the crank. (and usually you get rid of the hand crank, and connect directly to the screw)

Now, there's a special kind of motor, called a stepping motor, that moves in discrete "steps." A typical one moves in 200 steps per revolution.

A computer can generate the signals that make it turn (there are lots of wires involved...not just + and - like a regular DC motor) and at this point your machine is under computer control.

Of course, this is a ridiculous oversimplification, but it really is how it works! The hard part is the details...dealing with backlash, often upgrading the screw drives, fabricating motor mounts, generating the computer control codes, etc.

But, that's all the detail work...to start out with, if it moves by being rotated, it can be rotated by a motor. That's the basis for CNC.

-- Chuck Knight

Hello all! Being a CNC newbie, my biggest problem has been the amount of information in here and the fact that it is so spread around.

In my opinion a FAQ would be a good starting point. Specific drawings have the problem that the hardware is not universally available. Also, someone who is already targeting higher than the first level machine may want to purchase better bearings / ball screws and bigger motors he can reuse in the next generation machine. Drawings should be pretty universal so that the builder can choose the parts that are available in his area, and that best suit his needs.

Motors: What size (torque) do you need for a certain application (wood, alu, steel, bench / knee mill retrofit), which motor type would be recommendable (unipolar bipolar) and why, where they can be found. Stepper theory is not needed, there are lots of pages on the net to cover that.

Control electronics: Different possibilities for different motor size categories, DIY versions as well as well as commercial ones. Pros and cons? Price ranges?

Spindles: Which power is needed for a certain application, suggestions, where to buy

Frame hardware: Bearings (different types, where to find, how to make your own), screws / nuts (different types, pros/cons, where to find), frame hardware (MDF, Alu profile, etc). Possibly drawings?

Software: Different possibilities for design and control, where to find, pros and cons

Step-by-step instructions for a certain machine?

Petri

Instead of concentrating on a basic design that will only suit a few people perhaps when the next newbie sticks their head up we should actually design a machine for them. Obviously we would put the plans into a file, hopefully with plenty of pics. If we repeat the process a few times there will end up being several plans available.

The same applies to the electronics side, why not design (or suggest) several different drivers.

this is my idea

3 basic plans beginer intermediate adv????????

each with different stages

1. mechanical
2. electronics
3. software


and each stage with international and national equipment sources.

eg Us,m canada ,uk ,europe aus ,

And I would thnk it would be appropriate to make some of the parts reusable for each project??????????????????????????????????

I'm a little late jumping in here; but have been thinking about producing a variant of Dave Kush's HBLB. He's no longer producing them; and I've e-mailed for permission to produce a similar LB. Assuming that he has no objection, how much demand is there likely to be? I'm considering using an extrusion rather than a casting and don't want to pay for dies to produce something nobody wants...

That's a bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' type question.

How much is the set-up going to cost? how much extrusion could you get out of 'soft' tooling? What grade of ally are you going to choose, how dimensionably stable is it? Etc, etc.

I for one would buy a set or two if the price was right.

Obviously you will want to cover your costs, so a preproduction agreement to buy would (as you know) give you a breakeven per set cost. If, on the other hand you expect to make a profit, then it's much more of a punt (as it should be IMO).

To recap, price will be of the essence.

Just my two shillings worth.

The other potential problem is that an extrusion (akin to Dave's design), that is economical to produce, will only be good for one style of bearing AND only useable with one size (diameter) rod for the slides. This wasn't a problem for Dave as he was only producing the castings for his own machine design.

However, as a "special order" extrusion, it's viability will be totally dependant on the number of people who are making a machine which can accomodate the diameter rod suited to the extrusion and who want to use a semi DIY'd bearing housing based on roller blade bearings in preference to sourcing commercial slide assemblies.

While it is an admirable idea, I feel it is fraught with risks.

:cool:

If someone would like to, I think it would be cool to create a HTML page showing a flow chart of the process of building this machine from start to finish. A pictorial building guide for the new be. If someone wants to do this email me the HTML and I will set-up a page for it.

Paul, I just wrapped up a quick Roadmap proposal for this thread. Its not exactly what you mentioned - but may help (I hope) focus this effort. But alas - I "printed" as a pdf and can't attach it! ARGGGGGH - Back shortly with an answer I hope!

As a teaser, while I figgure out what next:

There are a few things to note - my graphics is as limited as my 2 finger typing - no appologies - but recognize the young studs - vacpress and others are better, quicker and have the energy to accomplish same.

Philosophy here for a moment - when we offer a set of plans - we automatically make choices for the builder. If we could create a plans template - then the plans could "grow" into a suite of plans - that could be modified and developed by tyhe users.

Focusing this effort is the intention of the attached roadmap. Take a look all - perhaps any discussion on the Roadmap could move to a separate thread if need be.

Cheers - Jim

You can now attach pdf files.

Paul - you are a PRINCE and fast too! Just tried a link through the Uploads as a bu - delete if need be (wood router plans)
So with not much more monkeying around -

It would be cool if there was an HTML page so that you could keep linking down to more specific details and examples from other peoples designs. If terms were linked to their definations, it would be handy.

Attached pdf courtesy of High Seas.

Thanks for responses to the extrusion idea. You're right - without some notion as to how long that string might be, it would be too risky.

Excellent Jim, I had pre written a post before seeing your piece. I had a surmized a lot of the same thoughts ->

There is such a dichotomy of needs.

These are facts for thought->
1. You can't go buy a reasonably priced DIY router, but you can the CNC software and electronics for one, so the open source machine(s) should be a focus at this time on the plan set(s) for a machine(s). There is an electronics Forum on the Zone.
2. There is a dichotomy of tools available to the DIY'er. (i.e. no tools to a full machine shop)
3. Metric and US component availability/familiarity makes plan(s) for both highly desirable.
4. There are several different plan forms of machines. Moving Gantry, Fixed Gantry...
5. There is a dichotomy of price needs.
6. There is a dichotomy of level of technical ability for those who want plans.

From that you have to assert one size fits all won't do the job.

From reading this thread I surmise->
1. There are needs for entry-level plans (cheap) as well as more accurate/costly machines.
2. There are expressed desires for moving gantry machine, which for the beginner is more involved than a simple fixed gantry.

Recommendation ->
1. Forget about the electronics and software at this point.
2. Create two threads, one for a moving gantry machine plan set, one for a fixed gantry.
3. In the design phase, shoot to design for both easy, fast and cheap for one version but with an eye towards a more refined version if the builder want to move up, or wants to start at the more expensive machine.

For example a moving gantry machine might be done on the cheap with gas pipe and roller bearings, but a second set of plans might use all the same elements but use Thompson precision ground shafting. In the design phase once a pipe size was determined, the holding method of the pipe would be dimensionally the same so that if removed, precision ground shafts would fit in with minimal changes.

What I believe would occur, is a couple of plan sets would wind up with many improvements over time, that you might have a bunch of plans available for downloading. If one thread or the other dies out, there wasn't enough need. No need to debate plan form, just go to the thread that is the machine you want to participate in. By creating two threads the focus starts to sharpen some.

Phil

FYI, I uploaded my plans in dxf format for those that are interested. I have the SolidWorks files also, but the zip file is 26 mb and there is a 6 mb limit to uploads. Have fun!

jgro

Couldn't agree more, it's the mechanical side that needs the attention of the experts on the group.

The electronics is easy to design, or buy.

jgro - THATS a pretty complete set of plans! So can you also add some details - (I just did a very quick look at them so it maybe covered in the parts inventory)

Details like:
what motors are you running? what controller and power supply?
what are the x,y,z specs? how about max feed (positioning) rate typical feed milling? an estimate for cost of building the system (less software, controller, motors, ps)

If those fit the bill of the Opensource - the job may be done?


BENHILL - (not the chubby Brit comic/actor?)
The electronics is easy to design, or buy
But the integration is the stumper - if you get the wrong motor with the controller, and attempt to drive it with the incorrect power supply - its all toast! More than a few posts on the Zone 'bout that!


pminmo -

1. Forget about the electronics and software at this point.
Again - maybe the answer is a third thread that just focuses on the integration of motors, controllers, powersupply?

Your insight about separate threads is a good on etoo - keep the lengths to something readable from end to end!
cheers - Jim

Originally posted by BENHILL

The electronics is easy to design, or buy.

I completely disagree. From what I've seen on this forum, there are some fantastic CNC designs. It seems that everyone buys the electronics.

Everyone takes so much pride in building the machine why not the electronics as well. That way you can say you have a 100% DIY machine.

I know there are more that a few people here that are talented enough to design there own electronics and build them.

There are also those that don't want to touch a soldering iron and would rather purchase.

But don't forget those that are tinkerers. They don't have the know-how to design a complex circuit, but know how to follow directions and want to build the electronics.

I fit into the third category and bet there are others too.

The PDF document is definitely a very good start as to what we should be looking towards for this thread. Thanks for posting it.

Personally what I was wanting to develop as a group when I first started this thread was a few things.

I wanted to start out with a basic tutorial for beginners. In this turorial it would include a basic dictionary so to speak of what each component does and a picture of it as well. Add to that a breif outline that has a step by step breakdown of how a cheap machine is built (cheap being anywhere from 0 - 500 dollars - Probably designed for a dremel or laminate trimmer). This outline should discuss design types (fixed gantry, moving gantry, etc and the benefits / pitfalls of each. From here a newbie could decide which type is best for himself / herself and move on to the rest of the outline pertaining to the type of design they chose. This step by step process should include exactly that, and when followed a newbie should have complete working machine and understand the hows and whys things work. Include lots of pictures. For a summary to that project, I would like to incorporate ways to "upgrade" the machine - For examples THK's, Lead screws instead of all thread, etc. Give cost estimates for these upgrades.

I am a firm believer that it is better to teach someone the hows and whys and not give them the designs alone. With the knowledge that is gained from the inexpensive system, one should be able to design a system for thier needs. A cheap machine is also more likely to get finished.

Secondly, develop a of plans for a medium priced machine (1000 - 3000) that a more advanced person can build.

The idea behind the medium priced machine is for the non beginners to build (read, people who know the basics from building the cheap machine) and want a nicer machine whether size, accuracy, etc is their motivation. This machine should be designed to be flexible in size, speed, accuracy, etc so the user can adapt them to thier needs. Include with this, parts lists, supplier lists, people willing do some machining if needed (or standardize some of the parts and sell them as a kit - maybe the cheap machine above should be used by someone to do the building of the second machine?)

Dan

Originally posted by mvaughn
I completely disagree. From what I've seen on this forum, there are some fantastic CNC designs. It seems that everyone buys the electronics.

Everyone takes so much pride in building the machine why not the electronics as well. That way you can say you have a 100% DIY machine.

I know there are more that a few people here that are talented enough to design there own electronics and build them.



My point wasn't to exclude anything, but to bring focus, without focus this will all die out because of going in circles. There is an opensoucre software forum and there is an electonics forum on the zone.

Phil

BTW, I have designed and built my own controller, so I do concur the 100% DIY

I would have thought that the 'integration' is common sense, but then I would, I design electronics..lol.

Sadly Benny died quite a few years ago now. Although I have lived not a stones throw from him all my life I never met the gentleman.

OK, break the project down into major component areas. Motors are both mechanical & electrical/electronic, but everything else is either one or the other.

If a general spec is outlined for a small (what is small?) machine & one for a large (same question), could not those 'in the know' break into groups to sort the design problems for each major component?

The danger surely, is the designed by commitee machine which instead of being all things to all men, is nothing to nobody!

I'm using a Xylotex controller and 116 oz stepper motors that I bought off of Ebay from Deepgroove1. These are the same steppers that Jeff at Xylotex sells. As for the dimensions, they are 15" x 30" x 6" cutting area.
The cost I would have to sit down and figure out. I estimate with the controller and motors, I've got about $400.00 stuck into it. Currently I'm using Turbocnc and getting 30 ipm jog speeds. Next I want to try Mach2 and see what I can get with that.


jgro

High seas, sorry to take away the glory:)
I made this before I saw that you had made a better one
its pretty disorganized but it can be made much better with proper software
It can be seen here:
http://www.teilhardo.com/cnc.png

Can the administrator put up a poll like:

What do you want to see in a free set of Open Source downloadable DIY CNC router plans?

What kind of Machine?

a) Moving Gantry
b) Fixed Gantry
c) Other

How much are you willing to invest in the total project cost minus a computer?

a) Less than $500
b) $501 to $1000
c) $1000 to $ 3000
d) More than $3000

How big of a cutting area?
a) Less than 2' Square Feet
b) 2 sqft to 7 sqft.
c) Larger than 7sqft

Select the on closest to the accuracy you are willing to pay for in component cost?
a) +/- .01 inch
b) +/- .002 inch
c) +/- .0005 inch

Would you consider that you have the tools to build a DIY CNC Router?

a) yes
b) no
c) no, but willing to invest in some

tei - nice chart! And no worries.
If you are looking for an app to do the chart with, I offer that a few years back we used "Inspiration." It worked real well for flow charting, decision tree building and particurally well for building cause-effect diagrams (trees).
Why don't you add yours to the downloads section? It graphically gives a good idea of the decisions to be made. It could go in the tech articles section - How tos home build?

BENHILL - small, Medium, & LARGE!

Phil - Nice survey input Especially the "accuracy" vs cost descriptors!

cheers - Jim

How about a "proof of concept model" project, that would show the person that computer control is actually possible, for them.

One of the guys on the wooden clocks site has put up a pair of interneshing gears, as a proof of concept model. That way you don't have to worry about whether or not you can "do it."

A stepper motor, a super simple driver (4 lines on the parallel board, and a few transistors), and maybe a vise, would prove the concept of computer control to the first time builder.

-- Chuck Knight

I think that those survey questions are great and they should give us some idea of what people want to see

hey Paul (CNCadmin), could you set us up some kind of survey like that??

Thanks,
Tei

High Seas, thanks for the compliments- I'll look for that software and put my .png file in the downloads section...

I wonder if people would agree that if we simply had _one_ good set of plans describing a two rail system, a gantry, and a z-axis, even a high end version, that modifications could be made to those plans to go up or down in price.

eh?

Owen

Originally posted by owhite
I wonder if people would agree that if we simply had _one_ good set of plans describing a two rail system, a gantry, and a z-axis, even a high end version, that modifications could be made to those plans to go up or down in price.

eh?

Owen

While I personally don't think one set of plans would satisfy eveyone that has shown interest, I do think there needs to be a popular starting point, thus my request for the survey (or similar) above. The more I search the web, read all the DIY CNC stuff, one thing becomes obvious, there are some really creative people out there. Some of the machines are so simple it's truly impressive. But back to your thought, there could be a ton of commonality in one or two fundamental designs that are at opposite ends of the cost vs accuracty spectrum. For example, 3/4" gas pipe is 1" in diameter. Around my neighborhood 4' is about $5. As is, could probably build a system that is in the .01 inch tolereance region. Now the other end would be hardened polished shafting, roughly $140 for 4' of 1" dia., and 4' of matching support $180 with considerably better accuracy and longevity. A 2' x 4' piece of 3/4" MDF for a base would be less than $10, but a 1/2" precision ground 6061 tooling plate the same size would be a couple of hunder bucks. I could see a person starting with the MDF and gas pipe, and at a later date slip in the precision shafting and tooling plate for example. If there was a simple effective planset based on components that had logical precision counterparts on the ZONE in DXF format, I bet peole would download and make design changes to meet their pocketbook/need and upload them. So on and so forth. Next thing you have is lots of plans available. I'd like to see all that creativity put to use to make the simplest, cheapest that amazes the user on accuracy. Group Think, KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid), "build it and they will come". BTW the stupid part of the principle, I see in the mirror every morning when I shave. :-)

Phil

Phil,

For what it is worth (about two tenths of naff all...lol), I think you are not only hitting the nail on the head, but driving it through three feet of concrete!!

I want to be able to prototype PCBs, none of which will ever be more than 12" on a side, I don't need much axial thrust, but I do want accuracy. I may go stepper or I might go servo.

At the size I need, stiffness is much more easily achieved. Motor control just won't be a problem for me.

Now the guy who wants to cut wood three feet on a side at a reasonable rate is, I suppose going to have somewhat different needs.

Hopefully not too many of my remarks will be quoted back at me this time....lol.

When building my "toys" I usually like to design for "future" modifications. I like using Nylatron bearing stock for my slides, but make them the same size if I want to install linear bearings later instead. The same goes for the rails. I use unhardened, but ground drill rod for the rails, but could substitute hardened shafting if I want too. I made my own anti backlash nuts (one on each side of a plate) out of the Nylatron, and designed it for ballscrews to screw in if I wanted to. (changed to ballscrews for fun)
Anyway, the point I think I may be making is design for "low buck" , but upgradable also.
Although a lot of people like to tinker with electronics, I for one like stuff ready to go. Geckos if you have the cash, or as simple as a 50.00 3 axis kit from www.hobbycnc.com (that's what I use)
Checkout the photo pages, RickOmatic to see the results. I'll be at the NAMES show in Michigan, April 24th,25th also! Rick

I was under the impression from the start of this thread that the idea was to investigate the possiblilty of having a comprehensive guide for the newcomer to DIY CNC.

If this is correct, then you can't brush aside electronics just because there is already a forum for that, just as you can't really brush aside software..........they should all be included in "The Newcomers Guide To DIY CNC" or if you wish "The Definitive DIY CNC Primer"......even if their inclusion is only dealing with accurate information covering their basic use implementation.

If this is worth doing, it is worth doing properly!!!

Putting up plan-sets no matter how good they are should only be the "icing on the cake" at the end of the "Guide", once everything has been explained and hopefully sufficient knowledge gained to allow people to then understand the plans and assess which design may be right for them.

:cool:

So what, specificaly do you want to know about the electronics & software aspects? Or is it just general info? How deep into these topics do you thinck we need to go?

In essence I agree with you, but where do we start or finish? I may be wrong (I have a talent for that), but I suspect that those skilled in the art know that this could become a huge undertaking. We could end up going nowhere fast unless we define our terms of reference & (as someone else said) focus our efforts.

Any size of machine would illustrate most of the basic principles involved. Once a decision is made as to what size, perhaps the first goal would be to focus on just that project, but covering all of the issues to give us a good overview.

Maybe what we need is a great & mighty leader to make a few decisions here, maybe not, but some direction might be welcome.

I stumbled across DIY CNC'ing last September while researching methods of engraving audio gear.............prior to that I knew nothing about it. Fortunately, I possess the abilities to make a decent machine (aluminium), and hopefully muddle my way through installing the Xylotec boards, etc., I'll worry about the puter later on :D . Unfortunately, pressing family matters have meant that I haven't completed my machine's design and probably won't for another couple of months.

My point is that I have spent several months in limbo at "newbie" level, pondering the alternatives in design and materials and even though I have read so much here, there are still countless details which I haven't seen definitive answers to...........they may have been addressed, but are laying buried in some long forgotten thread.

To do this properly will be a mammoth task and will require focus and dedication on the part of those who take it on.

Compiling a "dictionary of terms" should be relatively straight forward, but it is the authoring of the guide itself that will make or break this "project".

Maybe it can be successfully approached by breaking it down into the individual components/sections of a machine and dealing with each in the order that you would normally use if you were making it, eg: start with discussing the various methods of base/frame construction which may or may not include the end plates which support the X-Axis shafts, then address the various options for the shafts/slides and associated bearing options, etc, etc. If written in this manner, the authors should be able to deal with each section and it's associated problems before moving onto the next component, kind of "let's thoroughly explore "A" before we move onto "B" kind of thing, then explain how and why A and B go together"..................

If this proceeds, whoever takes on the task will have to approach it with a totally open mind and be capable of discussing design and material alternatives in a completely unbiased manner, writing about ALL reasonable options, NOT just the options they believe are correct.

For some inspiration have a look at how one person approached writing a basic guide to using lathes.......http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/techindx.htm

:cool:

This is definetely a great guide to use as a template for a "newbie guide to CNC"

The connections between each subchapter are very important in forging a newfound understanding for CNC but I think that we still need to get some leadership going
Is anybody interested?

"Looking for people wanting to develop new plans for a cheap cnc" is the name of the thread, I took that to mean measured drawings to build (dxf's pdf's...) and cheap meaning inexpensive.

Phil

Here's my take on this thing. Start out with a set of plans for a small router for beginners. Moving gantry, as that seems to be the most popular. (and uses the least amount of space) I'd design it around a PC laminate trimmer. For the X and Y, use 1" drill rod with bronze bushings, with the option for ground shafts with linear bearings. (They would both use the same basic mounting, design to accomodate the biggest one). The 1" would let you get about 30" without much deflection. Use 1/2-3/4" for the z-axis, same basic design. Use a Xylotex, and provide a list of acceptable motors, with vendor info. (Include Deepgroove1 from Ebay). Provide a list of web links with alternate diy drivers. Most diy drivers won't give you performance as good as the Xylotex, and the cost savings wouldn't be that great. Use 1/4-20 leadscrews, upgradeable to 1/4-16 or 3/8-10 acme for better performance (not sure why no one uses these, they're relatively inexpensive). Use MDF, or for a little more money, Baltic Birch.

Tools required:
Tablesaw (You can get aroud this with just a router and straight edge)
Drill Press
Router

Start with something like this, 24 x 24 x 6. When you get the plans for this setup. Move on to the next set of plans. Bigger is more expensive. Smaller is cheaper. Different components are required for each. Start with a machine for first time builders.

Phil,

I know what the thread title is, but the following quote is taken from a post by Hack............


"Personally what I was wanting to develop as a group when I first started this thread was a few things.

I wanted to start out with a basic tutorial for beginners. In this turorial it would include a basic dictionary so to speak of what each component does and a picture of it as well. Add to that a breif outline that has a step by step breakdown of how a cheap machine is built (cheap being anywhere from 0 - 500 dollars - Probably designed for a dremel or laminate trimmer). This outline should discuss design types (fixed gantry, moving gantry, etc and the benefits / pitfalls of each. From here a newbie could decide which type is best for himself / herself and move on to the rest of the outline pertaining to the type of design they chose. This step by step process should include exactly that, and when followed a newbie should have complete working machine and understand the hows and whys things work. Include lots of pictures. For a summary to that project, I would like to incorporate ways to "upgrade" the machine - For examples THK's, Lead screws instead of all thread, etc. Give cost estimates for these upgrades.

I am a firm believer that it is better to teach someone the hows and whys and not give them the designs alone...........etc, etc."



:cool:

Sorry - been off sorting out a posting/attach problem with the cncAdmin let me try this again...

I can understand why no one is rushing to take up the leadership role here!

We are essentially creating a virtual organization, which is clearly composed of many tallented, experienced, and opinionated people. Being the leader of such an organization would be a large task, full of frustration, and require that person to weigh and judge each opinion and input. Wow - a tough job!

To make it a bit easier - we could chunk it and eat the whole sandwich!!
I've added the following organizational suggestion as an attachment (hope it goes!)

New Thread - Open Team Cheap DIY CNC Moving Gantry Router

I'm not trying to stop this thread at all, just start some focus(direction) for those who might be interesed in this kind of machine format and objectives, see if it catchs on or not. I have no pre conclusions on anything in the picture posted, could look entirely different, same for objectives and goals.

Phil

I Agree with HiString..........!

Clyde, HiString, I agree with you too, but if a good set of plans is provided, the full newbie can learn a lot and the not so newbie can start the adventure of building. IMHO, of course

Fer

OK, hands up who's been mid to senior management, &/or has really, actually managed medium to large projects.

Then of those who express an interest in the job the group can choose a project leader, a deputy & a first reserve.

Well, it's an idea, any takers?

Highseas, you are a real smart guy... A man with the plan

I think the way that your .pdf file explains it is perfectly. So now what we need to do is start the "project teams" which can work out their own organization?

I also think that the web "journal" is a great idea for diagraming the progress of the group

I'll quote Benhill:
"its an idea, any takers?"

who wants to be part of the senior managements, biggest choice it means is time commitement

-Tei

why has this: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3934 thread gotten so little attention?

I am posting this page as an example of how this thing could look with a little work. the content was created for something else and does not reflect what would be specifically appropriate for this project.

I have seen some great 3DCAD from active members here, and with some decent CAD databases, we could create a very graphicaly rich and detailed synopsys on building these buggers..

Image does not work for me..

Fer

fixed

That looks really good vacpress.

First-- thanks to Tei for his nomination.
I hear no "second." Maybe thats a good thing.

BENHILL - I can offer a bit of said mgmt experience - but rather not use that as criteria.

I do offer my assistance in; organizing, steering, and developing the vision (leadership functions) for the effort. Let me collect my thoughts.
I'll be back in the morning.

cheers - Jim

I'll throw in a second on HighSea's. I liked his presentation also. It's a full system approach. Great learning tool.

Phil

here here.. I will also nominate high seas.. I like what I see. another question is do we build said machine as we go. I would like the direction.. I haven't run a cnc in years... started collecting parts and suppliers for parts..

I can build anything I can see.

I would be more than happy to post my progress.and improvements

Looks like someone allready did something cool
http://www.otocoup.com/Plans3Dcoup.htm#_Plans
I do not speak french but this machine looks like it can be made cheaply

There is an English version available there.

What do you think about maybe seeing if any of the newbies have a request? Like maybe a questionare to fill out before they can sign in as a guest, run this for a month or two while everybody gets there leadership in order. Take this info as the basics of the groups plan goal.

Also. lets not forget whats under our own nose. Look in the photo gallery and you'll find some dam good ideas, keep it simple and basic like the rick-o-matic unit. It does NOT need to be big to get results
Maybe the machine can be a small import mill converted to cnc if its within the set price range for the newbie or the forum's set goal. I bet we all would have a boss II if they where cheap, make this a package that is relieable and accurate as you can for a set buck.

This should not be a package of what you would do on a second build but your first build!(without the mistakes) Make as if it was a package that your son or daughter had to build without any outside help. Give them correct info with the sources and documention needed to the building of a cnc package. Once they have the first one done and make parts they will have the basics. Making something bigger will then be easy for them as they can make all those little parts that make big toys. Just ponder the the idea that the forum starts with a basic cnc then an interm unit to an advance unit.(just an idea to please all)

Also as suggestion we have a very big field of experts here from around the world in this fourm, make the parts list with sources and suitable alternatives from all the worlds market. Use as much open source and off the shelf items as possiable. Not everbody is blessed a machine shop in there basement or garage. It's easy for the pro to say do this or do that, lets back this up with the right stuff. The first area that I feel must be addressed is where any part gets started, on the drawing board. not everybody has autocad or what ever you use. Lets see if this idea can get off the ground here, what shareware or freeware cad program can this group nail down and EVERBODY involved with this idea MUST USE. Now I know that this may upset some of you out there, but think about it, it makes sense as the newbies and the pros here can be on the same page and nobody spent any money yet, and no I'm not telling anybody who,when or what to do here but if its the forum goal to create a package for the newbies, it should be based that all that they have at the table here is the pc that they are viewing this site and with the idea of having somthing made by a cnc machine. It should be a goal here to make the most with less, just as you did when you first got the bug for cnc.

As a last note if there are forum members that are vendors for any of the items that may fit this need of the package as far as software or the hardware let the leaders of this project know as you never know how much all as to gain, sales for you and discounts for fourm members(maybe?)

I only wish that when I first got started that I know now what I did not know then, as I would be way a head of the game.(providing I had more time to play)

JEFFY

Here is a link to the English version that Nono just posted.

http://www.otocoup.com/Plans3Dcoup_e.htm

It would appear that the "End Elev" plan on Nono's site is missing..........well it is at the moment.

Sorry, just amended that to "End"

Thanks Todd I can put my french/english dictionary away :-) still need to convert from metric to english though

"each with different stages

1. mechanical
2. electronics
3. software"

Hm, "get it built first" is what I always seem to read on this site but 2 things could be added to the list above:

(maybe listed as 3b) Controller software and gcode generating software. They are, after all, 2 different animals. Before I purchased Mach1 I was totally ignorant of step and direction control. Now, I'm just a little stupid. But, you have to have gcode and/or the software to create it. Some folks who are just starting out may not know this nor have the where-with-all to find out how to do it.

#4 on the list should be trouble shooting. This may be asking for trouble. (sorry about the pun) Listing all the elements would seem horribly complex to me. And going with your basic anecdote may make for heavy reading; catagorizing the information alone, could be boggling. But, I think some sort of trouble shooting guide is a must. High seas did an excellent job of doing just that when he'd had problems with an axis in this thread:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2822

'bet he figured it out in the end, eh?

So, now my final point: if he has time, I'd like to nominate high seas for the leadership role. (He is definately more organized than I am.) But, I think its important that he wants the job. What a lot of responsibility! Jim, or anyone who ends up with this task, if you need help, I can probably devote 3-5 hours a week. Anybody else?

My claim to fame (snicker snicker) 3d modeler, welder, machinist, artist and all around trouble maker. Oh, yeah, and I write for a living.

So. Got pics? Designs? Drawings?
Lets get things rolling!

Well let's hope that High Seas want's the job, as he does seem to be "The Man with the Plan"!

Personally, I hope that the eventual choice of machine takes into account the twin concepts of 'very simple' & 'as cheap as possible'. Being somewhat financially challenged, & without doubt rather intellectually so, simple & cheap appeal to me greatly.

However, the eventual choice must be useful to the widest range of we newbies as possible, 'the light must be worth the candle'.

Personally, I want to be able to mill PCBs, & I'd really love to be able to machine small, non-ferrous metal items. For PCB work, I need an X & Y of no more than twelve by twelve inches, & for metal a max Z height of four to six inches should be ample. Work piece hold-down needs to be simple & secure (I have some nice 'over centre' clamps to use). Swarf/dust removal by vac cleaner is a serious consideration for me. Last, but not least, minimum footprint would be another of my important considerations.

Well that's what I want, nevertheless, I suspect that the majority will want something a tad larger, & optimised for Woodcutting. Perhaps, as I'm sure has been suggested earlier, a poll should be conducted to ascertain just what it is that the majority do want.

When we go to the more advanced machine design I would like to hear from anyone who has used the castable polymers that they have created for making machine bases. I like the idea of making a plywood and foam form to cast a machine. Have threaded metal inserts in place for attaching linear rails. Mill off the mounting faces for square and you end up with a bolt-together machine using linear rails and ballscrews. If you look at the construction of the Haas tool room mill you’ll see the concept only they use cast iron. I just don’t know how good these castable polymers are.

If you are going to look at room temp castables, don't forget concrete, it's a much more versatile medium than most give it credit for.

Well, I'm not sure what castable polymers that you are thinking of, but the ones that I have used in the past on extreme accuracy diamond turning lathes were extremely expensive. There are also only 2 suppliers still left in the US, Anocast (a division of Anorad) and Hardinge Machine tool (the people who make really nice metal turning lathes) Usually it was only used when a simple granite surface plate couldn't be used. Plus, there is the form to make, which is far more involved than you might think. It would need to be sealed, and stand up to the pressure at the bottom of the mold with all of the liquid in it. Again, I'm not sure what scale you are talking here. The last one that I designed was 15,000 pounds, and extremely intricate. Anyway, it's basically epoxy resin with granite chunks of various sizes.

I like the idea of concrete. Very cool. Plenty of mass, nice and cheap, easily re-inforceable with rebar, and easy to mount the inserts in. Just remember to oil the mold or use wax as a release agent.

Ok after much thought and prodding - I'll continue to provide some sence of direction and organization to an effort that seems to have some interest. (Together we can bring order out of this seeming chos)

First, of most recent note, pmino - Phil has begun a separate thread. Good On'ya Mate! That seems like an place that some members would like to focus. I strongly encourage that effort and hope to see many fine results from that forum. (Hope I read that approach right - Phil).

Second I've prepared a draft charter for all that are interested in the "other thing" and would like to participate in it.

I ask you read it through, give it some consideration over the next few days, and consider volunteering to help out if it "fits." If you are interested and the charter needs some tweaking - or your level of participation is different than outlined - still consider volunteering and we can perhaps come to some middle ground.
If you haven't already read the earlier IPT document and the Roadmap, you might want to review those too.


The challenge we all have is self policing our posts - and I'm at the head of that list too!

I'll begin a new thread late Sunday or early Monday - so if you can hold your discussions until then we can keep on track. Remember - Input, critical thought and volunteers, come Monday, 19 April 2004.
It'll take that long for my brain to rest -
cheers - Jim

I was thinking abvout something like http://www.zanite.com/welcome.htm

High Seas, I only started a second thread because I was concerned this one was dying out. If there is interest in my thread I willing to keep an effort going in parallel. But in all honesty I would really like to see an end-to-end total project, well documented and hosted here. The path your going. The CNCZONE has become my favorite daily reading. From a personal note, I started down my own path afer dropping to many dollars for a set of plans that I wound up not liking. It was a moving gantry design using cheaper components, and stopped fabrication because I decided I really wanted something more accuracte and expensive. Learned a lot though. But it would have been nice to have had one focal place to look through an entire process and machine. Designing electronics and writing embedded software is what I was educated to do, but have been managing engineers for the last 20. I did post a chopper controller board I've been working through in the thread I started . Pics:
One axsis assembled board:
http://webpages.charter.net/pminmo/proto3977.jpg

Blank board:
http://webpages.charter.net/pminmo/board2.jpg

Schematic:
http://webpages.charter.net/pminmo/3977.pdf

If I can help out here I'm in:

Phil

This thread is great. I have followed it from it's begining. Some very innovative ideas. I would like to do something to help out.

I would consider myself a newbie to the DIY CNC Router world. I have the CAD design knowlege. Mostly 2D Architectural and cabinet design. I use Autocad 2002 for design. I use BobCad V19 for processing machine code. I have progammed a Holzher 316 point to point, and my step-father has a Haas Vf-3 that I have done some simple engravings on.

I have recently bought a set of plans for the CadCut 4x8 machine. The plans were pretty pricey, but it's a real tight design. To build this machine is a costly project. It uses very expensive, but very accurate, linear rails to move on the x-axis. Wow $$$.

Because of the costs involved I have decided to design and build my own machine, which is not so costly, but still has similar specifications. I really like to v-bearing slide setup, similar to the shopbot. Very inexpensive to get some solid movement. At least for the X-axis. 8 feet is a long CUSTOM rail. Ouch.

I have the access to all the tooling I need to make this. I just need some guidance, just what this thread is all about. I would like to aid in this design so I can actually build it.

Let me know how I can be of assistance.

Excellent - Phil - Thanks for the background info and the volunteer statement - I said I wouldn't be "back" til Monday - but had to sneak in a reply here

Volunteer statements like Phil's (pminmo) are just what we need! A little background info and a volunteer statement (but please make sure you've read the charter document first - Ok?)

Thanks - I honestly believe that: Together, we really can bring order out of this seeming chaos!

And Phil - I really like the thread going in parallel too - it will give a forum for some interesting hardware discussions for the team to hitch-hike on and use to refresh our perspectives, as well as a point of entry fo the rest of the CNC Zone members!

Cheers - Jim

I have a few old plans from the '20's here calling for concrete in the bodies of machine tools for the workshop. From old Popular Mechanics Shop Notes. Always thought it was a viable alternative to cast iron as long as you did a lot of pre-planning as to where your tapped or through holes were going to go. Will post them if there's interest.

Keith Green
Vancouver, B.C.
Canada

Been lurking around this thread for a week or so now. I'm a machinist in Vancouver, BC, Canada.
I've been tossing around the idea of a homebuilt CNC for a while now; just cruizing around the internet looking at various designs and other peoples' ideas.
I have all the machining skills I would need for the task but the electronics and control end is still pretty well muddy water to me. I've asked on other groups (about motors, controls, etc.) and I got definitive answers...from about 6 different expert opinions and all different. "These motors will not work." / "They worked fine for me."
Maybe you should divide up the task into mechanical and motor/control sections with a couple experienced guys to suggest what might be the better combinations. There are many combinations of components and it seems the greater determining factors here are 1) How much one is willing to spend, whether in time or money and, 2) What resources one has reasonably close at hand.
I agree that Ebay brings almost anything close to hand but for those of us in large urban areas, we're often brimming over with usable parts that people just send to the scrap dealer by the ton every day. I can just pop down to one of three or for local ones and pay my ¢30/pound and I have more than I need. In my case at least, the initial machine would be one made from cheap materials and scrounged parts. I would be willing to spend some money on a good controller but, right now, i don't know enough to be able to make a decision on one that will suit my purposes futher down the road; I need to know what controller i can buy or build that will (possibly) work for everything from my little surplus-store floppy-drive steppers right up to ones able to drive a router through MDF or aluminum. I would prefer this information to be practical and derived from experience rather than something that comes from a formula or derived from specification tables.
Enough for now. Thanks for generating this thread. Great stuff.

Keith

QUICK EDIT after reading the cnc ipt pdf file
I'd LOVE to be in one of these teams, hardware, electronics or graphics. On hand I have autocad 2k4, very good at photoshop and I know hardware like the back of my hand. Electronics I'm kind of a novist but I'm not incapable. Its just I know little about the math behind electronics production from scratch. brb windows in car are down and it just started raining YAY!


If i may add my opinnions. I havent had time to go threw this entire thread so this may have been coverd. But I'll start off with discribing a bit about my self. First I work here www.jax.org and have a fair about of schooling behind me. As well as I've made major changes to the Lab, which I'm well known for, for example I rewrote the book on the design for the bio safty flow chart. That alone controls the entire make up of where and what you can do in the lab PERIOD!!!!!!!!!
I also do a lot of modifcations to electronical items for example http://members.panax.com/bachh my web site.

But If i may I'd reccomend churning out a __FEW__ types of easy begginer schematics on cnc machine creation. There are the drill press mill style machines which are much better suited for high tork and more often then not lower resilution. There are the table travler cnc mills, where the dremal tool moves all over the board or the base board moves and the rotory tool is stationary. These are better for high precission. As well as other type's of usful designs. But it really depends on what people starting out are going to have the start of buildin and finish.
See there are some designs which are extreamly easy to create with a minimum of tools. And others need out sourcing for machine work to be done. I really think these 2 ideas would be a better idea to toy with. What are your thoughts???

Now as far as driver circuits and motors, again it all comes down to personal preference and design. Some you can build your self for a fraction of the cost of buying brand name. And other things are almost impossable for the begginer to even the advanced to construct.
Now for example an uni-polar motor-driver setup is beyond simple even for a novist. Three quad darlington aray transister blocks 12 1k resisters and 3 dropping resisters (optional depending on motors ohms) plus a psu. 3 switchs and 3 1k resisters for home's. All straight wire to your standerd parallel port. and you have your self a controler running on turbocnc. FOR X,Y,Z axises. and no encoder circuits to complicate things.
So basicly, the intro to cnc machining would be. What is right for you! :D

Now I dont have a cnc machine currently but I am in the process of building one. When I get around to it I'll take a snap shot of what I have so far. But to give you an idea the base of my cnc machine is to an old Mustek 600 III EP Plus parallel port scanner. It has 2 parallel hardend rods which are a perfict setup for me. I'v built my Y axis with 2 L peices a straight peice. then 2 more round 1/4" rods welded to the L peices. the table bed is jb welded to 4 more bronze sleeve bearings. and the y axis is driven by a screw in the center. Same for X axis when I finish the screw mounting. Problem is that I have to gear it to gain the tork needed to move the entire 8 lb Y axis which is sitting on again brass sleeve bearings.
My y axis is at about .0005" per step or 5 thousants of an inch. the X axis is going to be around .000025" per step due to the gearing reduction.
The thing about this design I'm building is that I need only a metal cutting saw (hand or power) a torch, some jb weld, about $40 at most in construction materials (2x L 6", 1x 1/4" 6"x18", 1x 1/4" round rod cut in half, 8 sleeve bearings, 1x 1/4" threeded rod, 1x 6"x7" 1/4" x/y bed thats it for the xy axis so far. A simple wooden arch and a z axis and I'm done.). motors out of old printers and a $10 controler board home made. Or I could say just re-use the stepper controler transisters from the printers I took apart. (pu4146 3A 100v X4 transisters in one package) More then enuff power for any uni polar setup +/- dropping resisters or chopper controller if needed.

I'd like to take a moment and volunteer to help in this project.

I've been told that I communicate very easily, and very clearly. Simple instructions will be key for the "Beginner's Guide to CNC" file, and I feel that I can be of help in this capacity.

As far as multi-stage designs are concerned, I would like to second the idea of easy upgradability of the basic components as a design goal for this project. Someone mentioned, earlier, that 1" drill rod is the same size as 1" precision linear guides...but one is of much higher quality and precision than the other.

I think we should probably address this as a 2 or 3 stage project, addressing it in levels. Rather than "newbie" through "advanced," perhaps we could address them in a less condescending manner. Good, better, and best are descriptive and objective terms which would describe a small newbie project, a useful router, and a 4x8' precision behemoth. Small, medium, and large would also work.

As a starter design (a CNC primer) we could do a single axis design, useful for the true newbie as "proof of concept." It could provide the builder with the confidence to take on a multi-axis project, as well as serve as a power feed for an existing drill press or "manual" router table, which could then serve them well in the construction of their router. Just a thought... It'd be a minimal cost project, and they would gain valuable experience with the issues involved in linear motion systems. Making sure it's buildable with allthread, or a simple belt driven system, would ensure that they stay enthusiastic, since all parts would be available at Radio Shack and Home Depot.

To modify a fairly old saying, perhaps we should help them learn to walk, before learning to run?

-- Chuck Knight

One big potential difficulty on any discussion group is 'experts'. They come in all shapes, sizes 7 degrees of opinionation (is that a word? More on this later).

I've seen 'experts' on some groups who could not find their arse with both hands. What you should try to find are those with expertise, who have done it (whatever 'it' was), aren't trying to sell you something, & who can admit when they were wrong. 'Not invented here syndrome' is another one to avoid if possible. So words of wisdom are fine, but "Don't tell me, show me."

Words; clear concise spell-checked English would be nice. Where possible, illustrations & formulae would also be most helpful. Oh dear, it looks like 'opinionation' is not a word, well we all get it wrong sometimes....lol.

Oops 7 should, of course have been &, duh!

My two cents, you need some creative "out fo the box" thinkers plus experts. Sometimes expertise is so focused it misses the simpler solution. While I think it is tremendously important to have proper documentation and educational material, at some point the actual machine(s) will have to be ironed out. To me any educational material works best if accomponied (sp, not my strong point ) :-), pictures of the actual product.

Phil

Phil,

When you are right you are right.

My Suggestion was to carefully weigh up the information you receive as some experts are anything but!

I find your spelling perfectly OK, if not perfectly accurate. I parse my spelling through a spellchecker so as not to appear as more of a plonker than I already am :)

Ps, I assume that "out of the box" thinkers are also "lateral" thinkers?

Hello all, extreme Newbie here, offering to volunteer- even to get coffee if need be. Ha! I see CAMIAM has already volunteered about the same skills I have, and approx the same area of expertize.
But maybe there is room for more than one. I am a Autocad detailer for architectural mill and fixturing manufacturing. Not much direct CNC experience, but thats why I am here. I do design parts with CNC in mind, and a fellow employee takes my files and imports them into another program for a point to point machine. I personally never got introduced to this area of the process, as my expertise was interpretation of architectural plans and detailing them for manufacturing. But enough of that.
And WOW! Love this site, and this thread just blows me away. Don't know where to begin, but I'm here. If nothing else, I definetely will be one of the first to "test" the plans. I'm interested in a couple of areas. Very small, like the vise type pic posted earlier, for machining inlays in wood and the inlay itself(very small and close tolerance abalone), and then the other end of the scale, large enough to machine 24"x ? MDF,
ply, hardwood cabinet/furniture/millwork parts. Maybe some aluminum too. No steel machining needed. No matter what direction this project takes, I am a prime candidate for using your proposed idea. I am totally new to CNC theory, so the original idea of this thread is exactly what I need from the gitgo. I am extremely jazzed about building a DIY CNC, and can't wait. I do have a complete woodshop in my home, and love to build all kinds of things. My other area of interest, is machining aluminum plate for custom audio stuff, as another member here expressed also.
The other thing is talking to people from around the world interested in this project. Cool. My name is Rick, and I'm from Coos Bay Oregon, USA. I see there are others here from the northwest USA. Howdy all. My other area of interest is Recording Studio projects, which CNC may play a part in machining custom acoustical products. Well, enough of my babble, just wanted to throw my skills in the ring, and say I'm available for whatever. I run Autocad 2002, and have been detailing for 10 years. If I can be of some help, just say the word.

fitz....:)

Hi Rick, welcome. High Seas is off this weekend and is taking the lead. One thing I realized I didn't post is where I'm from. St. Peters, Mo. Burbs of St. Louis. Born and raised on a farm in Southern Indiana. Built everything, one of those types that was taking engines and radios apart when I was 10 and putting back together. Educated as a EE and MS in Management.

Phil

KISS Principle, "Keep It Simple Stupid"

Not actually a reply to cadesignr, just my hand up on the volunteer thing.

What can I offer; well.....Over twenty-five years as an electronics designer. I specialise in control systems, motion control & test equipment design. I can repair most things a board level (I can, but don't do TVs!).

Senior company management & project management (boring). You name it, I've screwed it up..lol.

My English is quite good, after all, I am English (which will be of great interest to nobody but myself).

I spend rather a lot of time on the computer, I need a life!

Ben.

heh, ya sarry about my bad spelling. I haven’t had a chance to install office on this iopener yet. Also I need to setup the software to allow my digi cam to transfer pictures (usb). I'm procrastinating though because the transfer software crashes win98 period. If I could afford it I'd go pick up a usb cf card reader. But I also don’t have a cf card for my digi cam, just the internal memory (Kodak 3500 good cam software is worthless)
Here is a crummy picture of the system I'm building. I used my web cam because I don’t trust the windows Kodak picture stuff. What I was getting at before is setting up the guide rail is self-aligning. And this is simply by design. If you take a metal base which is 3/8th thick by 6”x18” then take two angle pieces and make them 6” each as in the picture. You align then at the ends and put end blocks at the very sides of the angle pieces, sticking up above the angle piece. Set your sliding rails in the newly created corner with brass sleeve bearings resting in the middle of the rail. The rails are exactly 6” apart from farthest side to farthest side. Align and clamp the angle pieces, over size drill holes. Align and tighten the screws. Solder the rails in place and do some test’s to check if its square (calipers). Very cheep and adjusting is as easy as braking out the torch to reset the rail a bit if needed. JB weld an other metal piece on top to the 4 brass sleeve bearings. Then take a threaded rod connector nut, solder it to a flat piece of ?? brass. That is your drive train. The rest is pretty self-explanatory from the image. But above all VERY cheap!
Let me know what you guys think :).
I’d say concept design, and phisics are my strong points! If and when teams start to be assined. I mean I only work with world renound phisists at my job :rainfro:

I'm not totally for sure i understand, but there are two points you make that I like.

1. A technique for alignment without a lot of expensive tooling.

2. JB Weld. This stuff is remarkable, overlooked in all the applications it can be used for. Might be an excellent solution for holding rather than adjusting mechanisms. i.e. an oversized hole being and JB weld once aligned.

The other thing that has run through my mind is the use of inexpensive 1-2-3 blocks. The can be bought for $8 a pair, and are machined to pretty close tolerances, even the cheapies. A design that used spacing multiples of those 3 dimensions, would be easy to align.

for example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41934&item=3809800586&rd=1

Phil

Ben, I spend to much time on the computer also.. Its my relaxation.................

Yes in my opinion the hardest part of building a home made style of XY’S is the alignment. There is nothing more frustrating then trying to align the rails. The big problem is if you use brass liner bearings, HEAT is not applicable!!! They are silicon embedded and heat destroys them (AS I FOUND OUT THE HARD WAY). So jbweld was my only option.
If I could make a point, an irc room would be great to start and a JAVA irc is easy to introduce to cnczone.com. It’s a lot easier then trying to chat on a BBS. Down fall is that information isn’t saved. The idea of quick question’s and answers comes to mind though.
If you have questions about the design I’m building ask away. The concept is very easy, though when I can make a nice high res picture with my digi cam. A lot more questions will be answered. Also I have figured out how I’m going to drive the Y-axis. When I add the large wooden arch to the system. I’m going to drill over sized holes near the bases of the boards supporting the arch. They are parallel with the Y axis so all I have to do is put a flat piece of the metal with a hole drilled just large enough to accommodate a ball bearing that has a lip on it. Then use locking nuts (plastic ring) to tighten and pull the bearings at each end of the cnc machine together. I’m sure your all lost by now but again over sized holes on the mounting part of the metal piece supporting the ball bearing. Then I can adjust it up down left right etc… at both ends. I can then mount my stepper to one of the legs of the arch and align it to drive the gear on the end of the threaded rod. Simple really, but wait there’s more for 3 easy payments of $19.99 KIDDING! But waits till I get it finished and show you what I’m blabbering about.
To be honist I’ve gotten a few ideas from the images I’ve seen posted on cnczone.com. For example I’m going to build my Z axis for the dremel tool like in this http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/174/password//sort/1/size/medium/cat/505/page/1
Its very easy and making it tool swappable would be beyond easy.
THAT REMINDS ME!!! you guys know I think the best tool for these mini types of projects would be the extended flex rotary tool for ether a dremel or rotozip. The rotozip one is a lot tougher and accommodates tools using upto a ¼” shank. The nice thing is that it wouldn’t take 1/3 the torque required to raise and lower a rotory tool. That resides on the Z axis. Besides you can make the Z axis more narrow. Hence gaining a larger work area. Again your comments please ;)

Hi Again everyone,
I was up in northern california visiting colleges for the last 4 days so I haven't been able to be on the computer to much. I just wanted to say that I think its great that Highseas has taken the lead and we have some kind of organization. Things are real good and I think that this new "opensource cnc design" topic area is a great place to share our thoughts.
It looks like volunteering has started so I'd just like to put my hand up too. I am fairly decent in CAD design and machining but I have not built my own homemade router so I probably can't brainstorm to much for the design aspect.
-Tei

Started another thread to get the organization going. Its a collection of the documents we may ne, a charter, a timeline, and a set of mission, vision and goals to look at:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3995

A few communications/posting remarks:
CNC Admin has mentioned he can set up a forum for the Teams to use that will let us correspond with each other in the same fashion as we would normally. Team Members will have access to read, wrirte and attach as in a normal forum. Non-members of the teams will have viewing rights only - sortta like "guests". If the teams exercise good posting discipline, it will help keep the "noise" down - but on the other hand - a little dissonance can spark good open thought and discussion. Using the same type of communication modes - we may get a quick start up on the effort. We can set aside an area for non team members to provide input - perhaps a separate forum/thread. The parallel thread that pminmo got started is a good example of the process for us - Thanks Phil - look forward to your help on this one too!

If we set up the new forum with a thread for each component ( the 9 elements), then the teams will have their own "meeting space." Team members will have the ability to post to other teams - threads. And each team should feel t free to add a thread as required. (It might be a very good thing we have a new server!)

Also, Paul has loaded up a copy of dotproject for us. I took a short study of it - and it offers many fine features - and may be a little more that we need at the start here. If other team members are more familiar with it, and feel we ought to use it - I'm sure we can migrate to it with little confusion.


Volunteers - I took a stab at collecting the list so far - take a look - sorry for the length of this post - but I was off this weekend and didn't use up my quota of keystrokes!!!!

Cheers - Jim

Hey Rick,

Get back to HR's Studio Designs where you belong:D :D :D

I came here months ago to get away from the recording crowd now I'm being followed.

ChrisO (aka Ausrock)

BTW, welcome to CNCzone

OMG......Howdy Chris, how the heck are you?, .man, I come all the way here so no one would know me and what do I get. Geeeeeeeeez, unbelievable Hahahahaha! Like metting someone you know out in the
middle of the outback. :=) Actually, I read your post here and thought, just maybe, it might be someone who also records. Don't ask me why. Intuition I guess. I was going to ask you, but I just came back.
Well hot dang. Lets get this thing rollin!! As if
I could help. I don't know diddly squat about how CNC's work, but I be reading my butt off. So, your into this stuff too huh? Have you built one yet? Good grief. So many questions. Well anyway, my offer
stands about drawing. Trouble is, untill I know how the heck the whole thing works, I'm kinda in the dark. But I'm learning. My boss just bought one
for his cabinet/millwork shop. I'm doing the CAD detailing thing there so I suppose I'll be involved in programming it, I think. Anyway, its really neat to run into you here. But for now, its late
and I just HATE to stare at a computer screen at work when I'm tired, and theres 7 more hours to go. Crap, its hard to keep my eyes open, so
better hit the hay. And thanks for the welcome Chris. I'll be here more often now. And BTW, I DIDN"T follow you. Hell, I found this site by accident. Glad I did. Actually, HR is gettin kinda old hat. Same stuff, different day. Kinda like work. BTW, hows the studio? Opps, sorry, wrong forum. Ha! Ok, later Chris.
fitZ

Chat Chat Chat.
I'm opening a chat room in Paltalk.
It will be in computerters hightech.
Look for
CNC ZONE CHAT.
I'll Idle in there till some one walks in.

As a note i'll probly have some program covering the screen so key up your mic if you got one and make some noise.
i'll pop over to the window

jusyt as a note i would be interested in helping as well. i have not yet built a router but have a fairly good understanding of the issues surrouding one. I currently have almost complets a design for a bipolar half stepping chopper drive and am involver in the construction of a arm equiped robot at school.

Oh ya I'v been meaning to mention, you can most often find me on MIRC "efnet" server rooms (#electronics and/or #hardware) under the nick "_unreal_"

Have you guys noticed that the open DIY seems to be slowing down

Well, some of it is. The "Motion Transmission" section has had lots of questions, and answers. Screws, spinning nuts, rack and pinion, diametral pitch of a gear, etc.

Come on over and join in the discussion!
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=181

-- Chuck Knight

Originally posted by berin
Have you guys noticed that the open DIY seems to be slowing down

Yes I have, personally the weather has turned nice here. Work to do outside and nitro to burn. I'll check in but my contribution will be slow for awhile.

Phil

i am busy with school. summer is soon. i will be happy to contribute more soon as well!

robert

I am in the process of closing on my first house, so I have been jumping through hoops for the bank. I have been keeping up with the thread though.

Chuck - Been busy like many with the "catch up from the winter"! And you've been doing a great effort in getting that segment going. Thanks heaps.
Like Phil - I'll be checking in - but I'm still busy getting the house together before the sumer gets here and the heat soars! Finished the plantings - now a deck and patio - then the attic- what am I nuts?!! CamIam - its a slippery slope you're stepping on to -- Good luck.
Hey Phil - what's:and nitro to burn
My other project is still under the tarp waiting too! What 'ya runnin'? My 'vette is waiting more than a few cnc parts I can't get to yet.
Hopefully the folks - "downunder" will have more time as they're moving into winter now!
Cheers - Jim

High Seas:

WAAAAY COOL! So many toys - so little time.

High Seas, I have a couple of extra minutes and been thinking about the open source idea. Maybe we on the right path but perspective is wrong. Maybe the end result should be a downloadable book in pdf format, with references to plans and so forth here. The layout here of open source is like chapters in a book. Fundamentally there are a lot of peices all over this forum and web that need a central collection point. ChuckKnight has pointed out FAQ's. Maybe there should ba a chapter one so to speak of types of DIY routers, drive systems, pro's and cons, material sources. Lots of pictures of peoples routers that have been built. Anyway for me till it gets to hot to be outside, I won't be here a lot but haven't lost interest.

Phil

pminmo
Phil - understand completely. I was not too interested in the actual "form" of the final product -- at the start anyway. Crertainly a pdf file would be easy to build - the tough part is assembly. The layout as "chapters is sort of intentional - it lets us al look at a bit of this MOUNTAIN - on bit at a time. Along a parallel path, Benny/ynneB has started his software doc - and it does have the "look and feel" of a "chapter" in some form of a more final product. That product could look like any number of documents, files, etc.

Its so good that Chuck Knight did the FAQs to get that going, and ynneB/Benny did that start up and all the others contributing too!

Like you - I'm stuck weather-wise. I'm insulating the attic - and its 110-120 F (35+C if I recall) in there and been in there a couple a days. Faster than Atkins!

I'll think a bit more and get another cut at a "product plan" if that is helpful. But YES - I think we are on the right track - it will be just a little slow going for a bit.

Yes High Seas, You are right. We should aim at chapters. If we all did seperate chapters then eventually we can stitch it together as a pdf book along with an idex.

I really like your philosophy about sculpting a machine and not planing one and then building it. I think it is easier to edit a project right, than hope to submit the final product in one bash.

This is why if we all make seperate submissions, even if they are not quite right, we can take the best parts of the submissions and compile it down to one good document.

I have noticed that open source can get bogged down by discussion about the hows, and progress is hindered. If we all just submitted stuff then it may be down to one or two who have the final control of what goes in, and what stays. It may not be as democratic as we might expect for an open source project, but it will get a final product finished. I think I will also post a word file into Chucks Faq section so that can be another document we can add too. Who would like to put thier hand up as the final editor of that document? We can only have one final editor. This person will have the responsibility to deside what goes in and what stays in the FAQ document. He must be willing to hear and consider other ideas from other submitters, but after all considerations he will have the final say.

if you have one final editor, I'd have one suggestion then. All of the DIY members should have a vote. Say a topic or portion comes under fire to be removed, by the final editor. Members can vote it to stay or go. majority rules method. And I mean all members from the entire DIY project not just that one part like design or software or electronics guy.
We really really need to have an IRC room setup. efnet or dalnet or something?

if you have one final editor, I'd have one suggestion then. All of the DIY members should have a vote. Say a topic or portion comes under fire to be removed, by the final editor. Members can vote it to stay or go. majority rules method. And I mean all members from the entire DIY project not just that one part like design or software or electronics guy.
We really really need to have an IRC room setup. efnet or dalnet or something?

While your suggestion may sound democratic ( and it is )
I think there is a balance between democracy and leadership.
A good leader will look at all the points made by the team, but in the end descide the way it will go.
Look at sport.....the umpire has the final desision even though the supporters may not agree.
A govenment will do what is best for a country even if it is not what everyone thinks is best.

If everything right up to the last fullstop is debatable, you will find there will be too much debating and not enough contributing.

The other option we could take is like Linux, where there are many versions because it cannot be agreed upon what should stay and what should go. Since all the contributions will be made public, the compiling can be done by anyone who wants to do so. You may get a few versions out there, and it will be for the public to descide what version they like.

I will be compiling a version that I think is ok. But if you could be bothered to go to the effort and make another compilation then you can. I just want to see this thing start to take a bit of shape and will therefore be compiling from what has already been posted here.

To tell you the truth I hate politics and red tape. It is the enemy of positive movement.

I have descided I will put forth a version and if anyone wants to join in, then that is great. I would hope to take every ones suggestions into consideration and make the best documnet availiable.
If you want to do the same parellel to me then go for it. Im not fussed.

Originally posted by pminmo
High Seas:

Nice pattern plane!

Originally posted by berin
We really really need to have an IRC room setup. efnet or dalnet or something?

We have that here- http://www.cnczone.com/modules.php?name=WebChat

Another possibility is to have a, and hopefully worded better than this, good-better-best set of books. The good is a starter...the better is with linear rails and "proper" controls...the best is something like what Eric built, or one of those 4x8 concrete behemoths. Another possibility would be a "tiny but accurate" jewelrymaking kind of option.

There's 4 different ideas, for 4 distinctly different markets.

-- Chuck Knight

Say, idea #5.

I got into this hobby, because I wanted to cut gears more accurately than I could by hand. Is there any software that can just cut gears, using a 2 axis setup? I have an image of a setup, where you mount a blank on a rotary axis, and simply move a cutterhead in or out. That's all that's really necessary...not 3 or 4 axis setups, and the resulting complexity.

LOTS of people are interested in clocks and gearmaking...and a simple, cheap, dedicated machine might be worth producing. Heck, I'm on a "clockmakers" list on yahoo, that would likely be receptive. The mechanics would be simple...is there anything that could run it?

-- Chuck Knight

Hmmm.... Maybe a 2 axis foam cutter if that is possible. And then use the foam as a mold. Or just a XY axis router, I'm not sure how that will work out.
Hope this helps. :)

Since all gears (at least ones that are *actually* used) are a simple circular form, with a central hole, and teeth cut on the outside surface, it should be able to be designed simply.

A mount on which to spin the gear blank...simplicity itself. It'd be a stepper motor, geared down for obvious reasons, spinning the blank. And, a linear rail on which a router is moved "in and out" relative to the mount. Travel along the "X" axis would allow the diameter of the gear to be set, and also create the gear teeth by moving the cutter head "in and out."

I saw something similar for producing router bits, on a "This Old House" quite a few years ago. Till I understood stepper motors, I couldn't understand how this type of thing could be done... :-)

-- Chuck Knight

"cncadmin" yes but no one is ever on that chat because its a webpage based chat. Most people like using irc because they have there own setup scripts, irc is a stand alone program ect.... :) and many other things I could list. Besides you'd be amased how many people have irc going in the back ground anyways. I bet if you switched that chat client to the java irc. as cnczone.com has a chat room setup on say? dalnet which has a chanserv server. a nice crowd would beggin to form because they would have the option to pop on via the web page. but get on in there cumfort zone using there own mirc client.

Oh ya I cant wait, I'm getting rid of err giving a gift to my cusins boyfriend (his birthday today). got an old p150mmx laptop with a minor bad spot on the screen. Buzzes in the speakers wicked when any thing is done. Never did figur that one out. I have an other laptop the exact same that doesnt do that. And that laptop doesnt have a battery. And the psu for it is under powerd :). I figur why not give it to him cuase he wants a laptop anyways lol. wiping the cmos got rid of someof the buzzing?
Oh ya the usb port doesnt work on these either, reason being they where beta demo chip's which the company used in there laptops. Microsoft doesnt support the usb chipset period. ? though the usb port works in dos with duse just fine??? Company went under from law suits because of it :).

Back to work! You started strong but have hit a snag. I want to build my first CNC machine and this project would be perfect for me, and many others I'm sure. Please don't let it wither on the vine.

Thomas

Tonight I'll be posting my current efferts on my contribution to the project. Current cost on my machine thus far is $48 including ALL parts. All motors have been scavanged few parts have been purchased. Most of the purchased parts are sheet metal and motion parts ect... I'll give a whole posting of images as well, to give an idea of construction steps.

Originally posted by radio-op
Vacpress wrote on page 1 “... some sort of pic-driven H-bridge bipolar might be best in terms of ease of assembly and cost.. the hudle there is programming the chip..”
Embeddedtronic.com has a design for a 3A 55V chopper drive that might be useful.
Kfong has posted here many times and might be interested in helping with this idea. There are boards and programmed PICs for sale ($10 each), but I think the design is open source so the schm and source code could be included and a link to the web site for those that want the PCB.
Bill
I personally would offer programming of the pic chips for the price of the chips and the cost to send them to their destination. I have a great little pic programmer and would love to help in return for help. Open source is an excellent idea If everybody pitches in what resourses they have the end product cost us all less so everybody wins.

$48 for your whole machine? That's quite good. Does that cost include the electronics, too, or just the mechanicals?

-- Chuck Knight

that is every thing considering I've done a lot of scavaging from printers that I aquired. The majority of the cost came from construction cost on supplys. Its part of the reason I feel that alinment method of mine is such a good idea to add as an other option for designing cnc machine parts. I believe you've seen a part way construction image of the machine? tonight I with a @#$%@^# bit of luck may be able to post the images. I've been flat out for the past week so far, its driving me nuts!!!! Only time I can get on line is brake time at work.
Tonight I have to give a friend a ride to work after i get out (DUI, victom) Then food shopping and a few other things. I expect to get home with 1 hour befor bed time. Yippy! I might be able to post them then.

Dear designers (in the restricted treath).
I am new in designing CNC devices.
If I can sugest something while you design the router for the newbie, would you care to discus the different options of the major parts of the router? for exemple the different ways one could make liniar sliders, or how to make the cutting header. Then the home worker could, by folowing a different rout stil make his own design as a beginner without having to follow the general disign of the groups effort.
Thank you.
Satchid

Satchid, From what I gather, you are suggesting that instead of making a fixed design, that it would be better to post different design principles, and then let the builder choose what parts they want to include?

I also feel this is the best method. Lots of small tutorials about different Z axis set ups for example, also linear bearing designs, etc.

Yes, but this is not excluding a working model.
I see it as follows:

A discussion of the different ways of doing it with sketches, then a vote could set the direction to go.

If we start with: moving gantry versus moving table or moving something else. A decent description with pros and contras of both systems, then a brief discussion in the group someone summarizes the discussion and then a vote between the posters could start the real making of the design.

After this we could start a discussion over the sliding mechanism, just simple Teflon sliding bushes, real rolling bearings, or lingniar bearings or other things. This would then also become voted and so on.

This way you have the active decision of the posters group instead of only one to make the decision.

You need only one or two persons to deside when to stop the discusion for the vote.

What do you all think?

Well, if we want to, we can compartmentalize the design, so that it's just a collection of subassemblies. Let the ultimate decision be up the the builder, at the time of construction.

For example, screw drive. Making an axis move, whether it is a moving gantry, fixed bridge, or even a hexabot, is simply a matter of turning a screw, and making the nut move. This subassembly could be reused, for all different designs. The details, like whether the sliding parts are made from teflon or rolling bearing assemblies, is immaterial to making the axis move.

My current design ideas are leading me towards a fixed bridge design, upturned so it fits on my workbench more easily. The primary modifications to the basic design are going to be a reorientation of the "lower" bearing, and a counterweight for the Y axis, so the stepper doesn't have to fight gravity. Otherwise, it's just a traditional fixed bridge machine...no big deal.

The basic principles of design are pretty much fixed...it's just a matter of how you arrange the individual objects.

If any of you are programmers, it'd be like designing objects...reusable programming code that can be "dropped" into various configurations...same basic idea.

-- Chuck Knight

Ohhh - Chuck, your comments sparked a flashback to "modular" programming in some ways.

I think you're right on target - modules or sub assemblys, "designed" to be scaled and adapted for the individual's specific use. Likewise the overall construct, moving table or gantry uses 90+ percent of the same components - just a different "point of view", so to speak.

The trick is getting all the bits "scaled" or integrated together. That's where some experience can save a penny or 2! Cheers - let's all keep thinking and corresponding! Cheers - Jim

It would definitely help new builders understand the way that each module fits together. And you're right about the commonality of parts between the designs -- it's simply a matter of which part you make move. The table, or the gantry?

The down side is that with an object oriented approach, it'd be less a set of plans, and more of a textbook.

The bottom line is that not everyone WANTS to understand how a tool works...they just want to build it, and/or use it.

I've found that my own desire to intuitively understand every aspect of a design is not shared by everyone. :-( A shame, really, because that level of understanding is required, if you want to make improvements!

-- Chuck Knight

It's interesting that you mentioned modularizing the different components. I was thinking along the same line for my cnc router that I building. I plan on making the y axis its own complete subassembly or modular axis that can be moved as a complete unit. Since one of the design problems of raising the y axis high from the x axis base is the introducion of flexing to the gantry, it occurred to me to make the y-axis movable so that it is close to the x-axis when I want to do aluminum routing and high off the x-axis when I want to router a 10" columns (on a 4th axis). Making the entire y axis assembly (complete with main beam, motor, ball screw and z-axis) movable on the two side supports of the gantry makes for a more flexible and accurate machine. And it isn't all that hard to do nor does it add significant amounts of weight to the gantry.
Benny asked my if I wanted to make my machine open source and I mentioned it would be fine (I'll make my millions elsewhere :) When I finish my machine, I'll donate its design and my notes to the open source community. It can be improved upon and refined by the millions of cnc'ers out there. (I may even incorporate some of the improvements on the original!)

Very sarry for my tardiness, but you know how the summer months can be when you’re a busy person. Here they are the latest images of my $30 cnc machine so far.
The top left picture just gives an general overview of layout. The picture on the right show's the base/x axis drive setup. The bottem left picture give a nearly compleat picture of the machine minus the Z axis on the wooden arch.

Dear Hack,

I was reading your article on Cheap CNC plans.

I have written a three axis free CNC program . The software controls all the step and direction outputs from the LPT (printer) port. It will run on Windows 95,98,XP ect. It comes in two parts the routoutcnc viewer and the manager. The viewer handles the conversion and the manager does the control with the LPT port. I would be great full of any feedback that you might give.(documentation not completely finished but the program works like a dream) The link below will take you to the installation file. Download and install.

www.routoutcnc.co.uk/routoutcnc.exe

The file currently has a thirty day trial period but I will gladly provide you and any other members free licence number if you would like to use the software.

PS This is not trial ware I am offering the full software for this project. If you or any other members need a hand setting it up then please let me know.

If your interested have a look at my Homemade CNC engraver / router on cnczone on:

http://cnczone.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/3940


Yours Faithfully

Mike Gaylor

Email : sales@routoutcnc.co.uk

Mike,
How fast of a processor is needed?

Phil

Mike or anyone,
As I'm turning out boards in different configurations, it sure would be nice to have a simple test program. Something I can monitor parallel port inputs, set outputs, send a pulse train to an output. Graphical interface would be really nice.
Any ideas?

Phil

Mike,
How fast of a processor is needed?

Phil

To be honest i'm not sure as the slowest PC I'v tried it on is a P3 450 Mhz.

But I would think that it will opperate fine with a slower processor I just don't have a slower PC to use it with.

If you try it let me know the outcome.

Also if you need any help setting it up, either email me on:

sales@routoutcnc.co.uk or phone +44(0)1269 841230 (UK)

Regards

Mike

Phil

To send Pulse trains to the port you can use my software. If you want just to monitor and send bit by bit then you can use the port monitor attached to this post. This was not written by me but is very good for initial debugging of wiring etc.

Regards

Mike

I can help do some CAD work 2d / 3d ..(better with 2d)
could provide some site sources for steppers .

i'm kinda tired so i cant think of anything else at the moment.

I've been looking for the results of the open source CNC Router design. I've not been able to find it. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks,

Mike...

Hello All,
Seems to me what is needed would be, computer to controller to motors.
Start small,explain producedure, from computer to controller,
from controller to motors,stepper & servo, one system each. Then if
you want a bigger machine you would know needs expanding.
For me at least, I think thats why I spend so much time here.before I
under stand one thing the subject goes off on some related details,
interesting, but I loose my train (caboose) of thought.
Bear

I've been looking for the results of the open source CNC Router design. I've not been able to find it. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks,

Mike...

I don't think anything ever really came from it. This thread used to be in it's own forum, but that went away a long time ago. Too many people with too many different ideas of what the final result would be.

That's too bad... several different concepts would have been great. Did the wind kinda go out of everyone's sails when jrgo posted his hardware store design?

Mike...

Did the wind kinda go out of everyone's sails when jrgo posted his hardware store design?

Mike...

I think they needed someone to take control, but no one did and everyone had different ideas, and it just faded away.

I'd like to still see a few open source designs come out of this... is there any one still out there that is willing to model some cnc router concepts?

I'd like to see another hardware store design, we'll call that entry level...
a split bearing design, we'll call that mid level
a rail design, we'll call that upper level

as a bonus we could come up with another 80/20 design
and a w slide design...

I would suggest that we pair up people in teams of 2 and let them develop it offline, and come on line to share their progress, and ask for suggestions.

The end result would be a set of drawings like jrgo came up with, and a working machine that one or both of the designers of each team built, with feedback on how the machine worked, and what could be done to improve it...

So is anyone out there interested in this?

Mike...

Well let me try and muddy up the water....since we generally use what is available at a decent price the designs can only be conceptual in nature....dimensions are based on what parts you are able to acquire...if we were all to hit ebay looking for 23.5 inch rails we would kill each other bidding on those specific parts and that is just one example....

Hello again,
and so it goes,basics out the window.
everyone gets wraped up in table size,ballscrews, all-thread,motors.
So what,If the basics were there,we would be discussing advancements
to each system.
Bear

Well let me try and muddy up the water....since we generally use what is available at a decent price the designs can only be conceptual in nature....dimensions are based on what parts you are able to acquire...if we were all to hit ebay looking for 23.5 inch rails we would kill each other bidding on those specific parts and that is just one example....

All designs can be modified to use parts that are available at a decent price. We need to get the basic plan up here so we can start modifying dimensions.

Viper are you interested in working on one of the designs? How about you Bear?

Mike...

Great Idea. I haven't built one yet but would really benefit from such plans. Keep it up guys.

I am also very interested in sharing (or open source) designs. I spent some time reading this post from the start, and it shot off in several directions. A design needs some structure or the same thing will happen again. As a professor kept beating into me, the way to successful design is requirements, requirements, requirements. They are boring, but oh so important.

As Viper points out, once you go to eBay for parts, things change depending on what you find. I think that a machine from these parts would usually be built by someone that already had an idea of what they wanted. But I do believe that there is still a desire out there for a repeatable first or second machine that can be made from parts that can be bought at the hardware store or ordered from an industrial supplier with part numbers. It seems to me the requirements for a hobby machine start first with cost and construction techniques (available tools). This is followed by size, speed, modularity, accuracy, etc.

I have doubts that a design by committee can yield acceptable results (just read the 200+ posts to this thread). Maybe we could try to nail down some of the requirements that a builder would want and then break that into a few different class machines and see where it leads.

Maybe the jgro machine already fulfills this need.

Steve

As one of the first page posters of this thread, part of the experience I learned was everybody wanted the what the title suggested, but everybody also wanted to go a different direction. :-) Plans vs modules vs theory vs different sizes vs electronics vs motors vs cost vs fabrication ability vs software........ I suspect it had too lofty of intentions. So I went down a different path with the electronics and in thanks to a simple request from Benny (ynneb) started my own electronics open source path. In that thrust I've had the help of many, and been able to create a repository of designs and evolution of designs on my website. I'm not sure that the formum approach really lends itself to a central repository so to speak. My only suggestion would be to apply the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid), cost and parts to a minimum, utilize avaiable off the shelf parts, and fabrication techniques not needing a machine shop. And wind up with a working machine that is upgradable. I believe the JGRO design has many of the elements I just laid out. Not all but many. I believe if somebody starts down a path that applies the kiss principle, it is possible to created what you and many others want. "Build it and they will come"...........and help

I learned was everybody wanted the what the title suggested, but everybody also wanted to go a different direction. :-) Plans vs modules vs theory vs different sizes vs electronics vs motors vs cost vs fabrication ability vs software........ I suspect it had too lofty of intentions. My only suggestion would be to apply the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid), cost and parts to a minimum, utilize avaiable off the shelf parts, and fabrication techniques not needing a machine shop. And wind up with a working machine that is upgradable. I believe the JGRO design has many of the elements I just laid out. Not all but many. I believe if somebody starts down a path that applies the kiss principle, it is possible to created what you and many others want. "Build it and they will come"...........and help

To lofty sounds about right... and designing by committe doesn't work well either.

I am thinking teams of two people can design a few basic machines. No electronics, just the basic mechanicals.

And I suspect a lot of people are looking to build their first machine. So perhaps we should focus on a hardware store design, and an 80/20 design. Benchtop size...

When the thread first started there were a lot of people willing to jump in and help with the CAD work. I am looking for those people now... is anyone willing to help with the CAD work?

Two people for a hardware store design and two more people for the 80/20 design...

Possibly two more people for a cheapcnc.com design, but more robust than what cheapcnc had.

Mike...

Folks,
I have been following this thread for a while, and something that has just occured to me is how most people are overlooking a (possibly) simple idea.

Why not post drawings of different ways to do something?

For example, I've built several different machines for friends, and in the area of the ways I've used everything from surplus drawer slides, roller blade bearings and mechanical tubing ( jgro's router), box ways with bearing trucks (the 3decoup2 machine) and Thompson linear bearings on T rail.
I've also used garage door track and rollers for a large (72x144 inch) sign router, and seen other machines built out of Lego or Megablock sets.
Pretty much, all the builder has to decide up front is WHAT ARE THEY LOOKING FOR.
Does the hopefull new guy want a basic low buck way to get the feet wet, and learn how to use a CNC, or are they looking for an instant production machine, or something in between? The obvious difference is cost. Followed by accuracy and durability.

Give me a few days and I'll gather up examples of each to post in the files area so that people who are new to this game can see what I am referring to.

Iain

Hi All
I'm new to the site, but not new to CNC. Being working with it for the last 12yrs. I do have extensive skills in 2d / 3d design work having designed various products for the plastic injection / metal pressing & car industry. I have my own CADCAM software and can do any 3d modeling or toolpaths. So if there is any cad or cam work that needs to be done on this project my services are available free of charge. Just email me the dxf or iges and I'll do the model or 2d drawings.

My goal is to make a decent bridge type PCB mill some day for my electronics hobbie.

kind regards

Dave
Cape Town
South Africa

Dave,

Can you read parasolid or acis files?

Mike...

Mike,

I can read the following:

iges
dxf
autocad dxf / dwg
3d studio
lightwave
adobe
raw triangles
sculptura
stl
vda
aglib
point file
acis (*.sat *.sab)
parasolid (*.x_t *.x_b)
inventor
catia
microstation
solid edge
solidworks

that's about all I'm afraid

Dave

Hey Dave,

You got the two important ones...

acis (*.sat *.sab)
parasolid (*.x_t *.x_b)

So which machine are you gonna help us with?

Mike...

not fussy really.

whatevers needed first.

Dave
Cape Town
South Africa

oh one other important thing

I work in metric and metric only.

Dave
Cape Town
South Africa

oh one other important thing

I work in metric and metric only.


That's perfect... that can take care of the countries that are in metric.

Mike...

imo it would be very difficult to even agree on the objectives let alone a design. Think of how hard it would be to do in a workplace where there are pay cheques and boss to keep things in line. People will not spend their leisure time on something they disagree with. Want to see what can happen? Check out the thread on making a communal pcb mill at the parallax basic stamp site – there, the objective was predefined but what a mess!

As was posted, the idea of building a culture of open source designs is the best idea. Having a variety of designs will help people create what’s right for them and inspire many. Kudos’ to peeps like Phil and Alan and others for contributing to it – that sort of action will have the greatest effect imo. My view is that the culture should encourage people to share their designs and frown on amateurs trying to sell their designs. Me? I don’t have a design to share yet so try to contribute by answering machining Q’s :D

Tim & I at 80/20 Surplus would love to see some plans using our 80/20 Inc T-slotted aluminum extrusions. We have a sizeable stock of 1515, 1515L, and 1020 T-slot profiles that have some dimensional problems (1 bad T-slot, centerhole dimension errors). Chances are good that the dimensional problems would have no impact on a basic CNC design. We could supply the extrusions in full length or pre-cut. By using the surplus material we can reduce the cost of the T-slot, which is the biggest hurdle for most home hobbyist.

Should we consider a contest with product give-a-way? A % of sales for suggested plans? A discount for material for plans you market on your own site? I'd love hear any ideas you might have that can keep 80/20 Surplus around as an inexpesive source for T-slot extrusions and accessories.

Tim & I at 80/20 Surplus would love to see some plans using our 80/20 Inc T-slotted aluminum extrusions.

I hadn't quite figured out where the 80/20 design would fit in. Is it a mid range design because of cost, or an entry level design because of precision?

How much would the extrusions and high cycle, single length, double flanged linear bearings cost for the 15 series?

Figure (2) 36" extrusions for the x rail
(2) 24" extrusions for the y rail
(2) 12" extrusions for the z rail
and (12) double flanged linear bearings

Mike...

80/20surplus....details...I'm building a small format (2' x 2') gantry style unit using your Series 10 extrusions...1020 and 2040 along with some jig plate....send me an email and I'll consider drawing up the plans and offering them...

80/20surplus....details...I'm building a small format (2' x 2') gantry style unit using your Series 10 extrusions...1020 and 2040 along with some jig plate....send me an email and I'll consider drawing up the plans and offering them...

ViperTX,

It would be great if you could draw up your plans. Shall we start a new thread for your 80/20 design? ;)

Mike...

I have a circuit board using 3 16f84 chips with buffers the code came from dak engineering I changed it a little so I could use an external Osc the circuit board is parallel port works with kcam also have my own 3 axis controller program in vb for experimentation only if ya want I will post to my site or this one so you can download the board as for the code you will need to get it from dak also need to be able to change the asm to xt easier to work with I think I have been using it on a homemade mill for circuit boards works great. You will need a pic programmer to use this board my inferface is in VB6 with a special timer it is done in activex ts-timer works ok. just downloaded softwire starting to play with this it also has a timmer thinking about checking its speed. next I think I am going to do an rs232 with a pic16f877 for axis control right now no time going back to work after being out for 7 months with hurt hand.

Sorry I have shifted this to the newer threads

Cheers

Ok I haven't built a cnc yet and most likely will not be able to for a while due to costs involved. This is of course why I am so interested in this discussion so let me throw my unexperienced 2 cents into the ring here.

Now I have skimmed through the 246 posts but admitedly not had time to read all of them in full yet. I feel that Chuck Knight had a great idea with a proof of concept build. Back on post #18 he talked about a cross slide vise and possibly using it. This is what I feel could be a great possiblity. I myself have a very nice drill press that I have wanted to turn into a small mill which this tool could be the key for me in doing that. What that leads to next is the possibility of a simple 2d cad router that could be built just by assembling parts without building a whole table as a starting project. Before I go futurer check out Habor Freight here (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=32997) and then look at the crudely modfied image that I have attached.

Now the vise is $60 but has a 7"x7" envelope that would have little to no contstruction as a router table would. By mounting two steppers and connecting them to the axises. One could create a 2d cad table with hopefully little cost and labor. Which when run at the right speed could be used to make parts for a larger router as a next project.

So there you have my input, take it for what its worth. I do not propose this as a solution for the low cost cnc but, it could be a new entry level project. In Chuck's words A good "starter" planset that would encourage people to finish the project with relative ease
This is an idea he has proposed in several forms and I think it is worth pursing.

That $60 vise looks like the basic X and Y table needed - 2/3 of the machine ..
Z-axis seems all that needs to be built ?

I think you need heavy torque to turn the thing because of all the friction though...
other --- other than the friction, if the accuracy is decent ... why not ?

I suppose you could loosen it up to have less friction, but then the play would increase ... if you only need 1/10" accuracy, I think this could more than do it ...

Guess you need well over 100 oz inch of torque which means big stepper and big drivers, which are not usually found in a DM printer scrap....

I've bought from this ebay store, maybe one of these tables:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7539452874&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/COMPACT-CROSS-SLIDE-TABLE-DRILL-TABLES-MILLING-COMPOUND_W0QQitemZ7515008953QQcategoryZ25297QQcmdZViewItem

I've got one of those tables, bought off the well-known truck, and have planned to use it for such operations. Two things need to be improved.

First of all, the ways are just plain rough. The improvement process can be started with a file, before you even think about stoning scraping and lapping.

The lead screws are very sloppy. One axis, I'd call it the Y, uses a floating nut which rocks back and forth a visible fraction of an inch. This can be coped with when using the table as a fixturing aid, but a CNC conversion will need a systemic leadscrew replacement.

I've got one of those tables

Which one, where did you purchase it?

It might be a good idea to look at what has been done. I think quite a few such machines have been built. Some of the builders have web sites showing their machines and their solutions to design problems. Some such references have already appeared in this thread.

A list of web sites showing such machines, details of their design, and discussing
the problems, and lessons learned would be exelent reference material for anyone involved.

Could anyone who knows of sites with usefull information or good ideas list them?

Craig

Actually...I've worked on my 2 vises, and managed to improve them significantly. I intend to hook them up as follows, as mine are a 4x6" envelope. Mount 1 horizontally, and 1 vertically. Arrange them so that X is a 6" axis...Y is the other vise's 6" axis, and the 4" axis is the Z. Should work quite easily, and produce the same effect as a fixed gantry router.

Here is how I'm improving my vises.

Step 1: Remove the lead screws completely and disassemble the vise. Now, use VALVE GRINDING COMPOUND from Auto Zone or similar, and polish the ways. This works quite easily... Near the end of the process insert the gibs and polish them as well.

Step 2: Secure the Y axis nut. The easiest way to do this is to drill a hole in the top of it, and thread it for a 1/4" bolt. A cheap tap from Harbor Freight is more than good enough for this purpose...the idea is to "secure" the nut to the axis. Use a fender washer to "fill in the hole" in the casting. Works quite well...no visible play. I've not measured runout, yet, since I haven't completed work on it...but it's extremely low, and wouldn't be an issue in a simple machine.

Step 3: Replace the leadscrews. Bearing in mind that the purpose of this is a low cost machine, we can dispense with the need for ballscrews, etc. Cheap 1/4" threaded rod is sufficient...and over the short distances we are discussing (at most 7x7") thread wander is of no significance. Why not ACME? It's not available locally, taps are hard to find and comparatively expensive, and the difference in efficiency and precision for a small project will be negligible.

Since we replaced the screws...the nuts will need to be replaced, too. My local hardware store sells a 1/2" nylon spacer...a nylon tube of 1/2" outside diameter and 3/16" internal diameter. Shave down the end a little (taper it like you would a homemade tap) and thread it into the existing ACME nut. This insert is both replacable, and presents extremely low backlash. A split design could also be implemented, if desired. The existing ACME nut aligns the insert in the perfect position...just thread it in and be done.

Step 3: (Alternate) A 5/16" threaded rod coupler is just slightly larger than the ACME threads. Threading the outside of the coupler, and the inside of the existing ACME nuts with a traditional tap and die should produce a good mechanical connection, while providing a metal nut... Something to think about if you intend to work hard metals. I've not tried this, because I don't have a tap and die of sufficient size to do this.

Step 4: (What I'm at now) Take a rollerblade wheel and slice/split it in half like you would a bagel. You now have 2 high quality thrust bearing mounts. Insert a bearing in each one, and attach to either end of each axis. Tighten a washer and nut on both ends, and tension the threaded rod slightly. This should provide a very smooth motion...especially if the threaded rod is wrapped in wire to make the rod fit snugly, as per JCK's suggestions.

From this point forward, you have a reasonably precise machine tool...one with relatively low friction because of the nylon nuts, the pitch of the screws, and the newly smoothed ways. Now, hook it up as CNC. Hook up your printer motors and have at it.

-- Chuck Knight

P.S. The vise shown is available for $20 at Cummins Tools, on a regular basis. Harbor Freight will price match, if one of the Cummins sales is in the area...maybe for the web site, too.

To answer Phil, Cummins is the truck I bought mine off - they do a tour of the country selling out of cheap auditorium space.

Chuck detailed the processes I hinted at in my post. The one other thing I would suggest is making a stiffer, flatter end plate.

I actually read, on someone's blog, that the included lead screws are pretty good. The problem lies in the rough mountings.

What they did is take out the leadscrews, turn them down on their lathe to fit proper ball bearings, and then remount them. Said the results were so good that their friends were jealous.

Of course, that's just hearsay...but in fairness, the included leadscrews aren't bad. They're slightly bent, and run rough...but that really could be just the "friction fit" at the one end.

The problem is, that I just can't figure out an easy way to deal with them, without using machine tools like a lathe...and not everyone has easy access to those kinds of tools. Much better, for a starter unit, to use stuff you can easily get at the local hardware store. 1/4" threaded rod is pretty darned common.

BTW, I chose 1/4" rod because it's 20tpi -- each rotation, if used manually, is .05 inches. 5/16" x 18tpi results in .0555 repeating inches per rotation.

See? There's a method to my madness! While this wouldn't matter tremendously with a CNC conversion...it leaves it easily usable if they decide to stop at just the upgrade step, and use it as a decent manual table.

-- Chuck Knight

http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,92.htm

is this the one your talking about ? so if i take a printout of that to HF i should get the same thing on that 4" that they want twice for ( http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=538 ) and theirs weights 2.5# less ( which i think in the case of vices is probably a bad thing).

Yes, that's the x-y rig under discussion. HF item looks just about identical, including the close-together bolt down slots and the cheap stamped end plate I suggest replacing. Weights listed are for shipping; the actual weight of my Cummins is 19 lbs.

Well, I'm coming in a little late on this but would like to contribute to the discussion as well as with designs & organization. As one of the newbies to CNCZone and CNC, I came in a few months ago but got bogged down with my own perfectionism as well as a lack of funds. I sat out for a few months now and would like to get involved again. With that...

As one of the newbies, I like the idea of having a buffet to choose from. First, I choose the general Machine Types (Small, Medium, Large) based on my goal. Then, within each of those, I've tried to group the modules (construction, Rails, Bearings, Lead Screws, etc.) such that a person could pick from the suggested types (JGRO vs 80/20, for instance) or they could borrow modules from one of the other two Types.

Keep in mind that some of this is ALREADY BUILT, all that would need to be done is to simply put a link to an existing discussion or design log (such as the excellent JGRO approach). Across the 3 machines, have little or NO duplication of sub-modules. When there are duplications they could both link to the same module.

Following is a (very incomplete) first pass at the layout.

Small ($50-$100)
-Goal: Minimal cost (and all that goes with that), Quick Build, Minimal technical knowledge, easily attainable materials. This might be an excellent teaching tool or simply a PCB Etching machine.
-Pros: FAST build, Good as a CNC learning tool,
-Cons: Lack of Precision, need moderate electronics knowledge, small size(due to smaller motors)
-Design: fixed gantry design, Cheap X/Y Table($20), Anything else you can come up with (for free).
-Construction: MDF, Plywood, Delrin
-Typical Workpiece: X-6" Y-4" Z-2"
-Rails: Water pipe, Galv. conduit, PVC(?), X/Y Table
-Bearings: Inline Skate Bearings, Professional Bearings, Delrin, X/Y Table
-Lead Screws: Threaded Rod (1/4-20), X/Y Table
-Motors: Floppy drive stepper motors, Printer stepper motors, RC Servo motors.
-Electronics: Home-Built Electronics, Floppy drive controllers, Electronics from the Printer(?)
-Power Supplies: PC P/S
-Spindle: Dremel tool

Medium ($100-$1000)
-Goal: Pre-built modules,
-Pros:
-Cons: Need electronics knowledge
-Design: Moving gantry design (JGRO),
-Construction: 80-20, Alum. Bar
-Typical Workpiece: X-36" Y-24" Z-6"
-Rails: Drill Rod, I-Beams, THK(?)
-Bearings: Inline Skate Bearings, Professional Bearings, Delrin
-Lead Screws: Threaded Rod
-Motors: 100oz/in motors, HP III Stepper Motors
-Electronics: Gekos, (more serious/more powerful) Home-Built electronics.
-Power Supplies: Store Bought
-Spindle: Wood Router motor

Large ($1000-$5000)
-Goal: Speed, Size
-Pros: Less need of electronics knowledge
-Cons: Price
-Design: Welded tubular steel
-Construction: Custom
-Typical Workpiece: X-96" Y-48" Z-12"
-Rails: Hardened Rod, I-Beams
-Bearings: Professional Bearings
-Lead Screws: Acme Threaded Rod
-Motors:
-Electronics: Home-built or Custom Heavy-Duty Electronics
-Power Supplies: Home-Built
-Spindle: Custom built Spindle

For instance, if I wanted to build the small unit, I might choose to go with a fixed gantry design with Galvanized conduit rails using Inline Skate Bearings with 1/4-20 Threaded Rod driven with small Printer stepper motors driven from Home-Built Electronics powered by a PC Power Supply.

The majority of this thing might be just an outline (similar to the above) with links to appropriate threads. The links could be updated when a moderator sees a thread that might benefit one of the modules. In any event, the new builder is gonna eventually have to do some reading to get started. Some would rather skip all the reading (and investigation) but I don't believe those folks fit the CNCZone clientel. The only other addition to this might be a page describing how this buffet system works and to give a GENERAL overview of the major modules of a CNC machine.

As a beginner, this type of approach would fit me better. Comments from other newbies or veterans?

Rance

PS: I realize that the buffet table above is missing some modules and may contain errors. If this seems to be a viable approach, THEN we can hone it. :)

You'll notice there is a slight diff. in the specs between Cummins and HF:
)HF wants double - for this they give u a little more long.& cross travel, larger slightly larger jaw openings,better marketing, claiming lifetime warranty,
and they tell you the dimensions ( how nice ). Yeah, I have money to throw away for those minischule improvements.!!!!


Cummins:
* Durable cast iron construction
* Powerful, replaceable steel jaws provide maximum clamping and holding power
* Cold rolled steel screws
* 2 swivel crank handles for adjusting vise front to back and left to right
* Bolt down slots for securing
* Vise crank handles drop conveniently out of the way
* Designed for precision drilling of metal and woodworking
* 3 5/16" throat opening, 6" longitudinal and 4" cross travel
* Weighs 24 lbs.

HF:
# A precision vise at a great price. Lifetime warranty. Type: cross slide
# Cross travel: 4-5/8''
# Longitudinal travel: 7''
# Jaw opening: 3-3/4''
# Jaw depth: 1-7/16''
# Jaw width: 4''
# Overall length: 5-1/2''
# Overall width: 11''
# Shipping weight: 21-1/2 lbs.

Hey, Harbor Freight will price match any item that is sufficiently close to identical to warrant such an action. At least the store in Richardson, TX (Dallas suburb) will do this.

It won't hurt to take a printout, and see if they'll match it. Judging from my own personal experiences, your chances are not bad at all.

You will, however, be voiding the warranty by modifying it.

-- Chuck Knight

You're right Chuck !! I had both pages on media ( printer's out and didn't have a HC) .. went to the store and wouldnt u know they had 2 demo models on the display table --- the mgr. wondered why .. one so happened to not be bolted down ,, they didnt have any more anywhere in stock -- yeah it was dusty and missing those handle on the ends of the lead screws (but not the vise) .. but i got it just like you said !!! it does appear a little sloppy and in need of adjustment and improvement but all in all -- is better than any damn jerry-rig i could build since it's out of cast iron -- and i started mentioning the other tool place and the fact that the display didnt have the
handles and he was in a hurry and just said he'd give it to me @ the comp. $ ... so i got it !



Hey, Harbor Freight will price match any item that is sufficiently close to identical to warrant such an action. At least the store in Richardson, TX (Dallas suburb) will do this.

It won't hurt to take a printout, and see if they'll match it. Judging from my own personal experiences, your chances are not bad at all.

You will, however, be voiding the warranty by modifying it.

-- Chuck Knight

Have some pics with annotations --- i guess some more detail descriptions of the fix of this x-vice would be nice as i got the floor model and have no box/instructions ( in Chinese) or anyother diagrams for adjustment on this.

Chronon, those are very useful pictures for further discussion of the x-y vise. Here's some response.

First picture - the screws control clearance for the gib strip. Researching that phrase will contribute much understanding. On better equipment it is a lightly tapered wedge adjusted with one screw from the end. Here we have a 1.5 mm thick brass strip. Adjusting the gib controls the tradeoff between slop and friction.

Second picture - Yes, that's the plate I mentioned. I haven't decided what I would do there; I mentioned it looking for suggestions. Provision for a thrust bearing would be nice.

Third picture - This is the Y nut which Chuck Knight suggested should be solidly mounted and then have a nylon pitch reducer inserted. I see the possibility of replacing it with a larger block of delrin mounted with four machine screws.

Fourth picture - You show very clearly the rough grinding which led me to suggest starting with a file and working from there to the lapping compound. The angled surfaces between the ones you point to are at least as important. It wouldn't be a bad thing if one could remove enough material here as to allow for a thicker gib, but one would have to do that with more precision than practical at this level.

It occurs to me that a lapping primer is in order. As Chuck mentioned, the abrasives are available from the auto parts store, which will be more convenient than an industrial supplier for many of us. I don't know if they sell it as a set, but there are a series of increasingly fine grits.

Clamp or bolt the disassembled base to a rigid table. apply the coarsest grit to the surfaces to be worked. Push the slide back and forth along the intended motion, applying pressure in each of the directions where contact is required. Rocking your body with arms fairly rigid will help keep forces constant.

Remove every trace of the coarse compound. A paper towel damp with WD-40 should work. Note that you are sharpening the corners, so exercise caution and knock the edges down with a stone or file. Apply, work and remove each finer grit in sequence. When you get down to the very finest, install the gib strip and adjust to tightest setting which allows smooth motion. Include it in this round of lapping. Because the gib is softer than the other material, the coarser grit would remove too much of it.

have some lapping compound but I think i wanna start with a rat tail file , or i mean to say a cross file (coarsest) and then a regular ( one angle of lines ) finer file before moving to the coarsest lapping compound - it looks like the chinese gave us a rough milling operation at like there highest cutting amount or speed of travel just after the metal was removed from the cast .. thanks guys !! i guess thats why they can sell it that cheap because they skip a bunch of processes .. and i think this one was supposed to be the machinist vice .. i hate to see what the drill press vice looks like..
- probably same thing with less travel.

It appears to me from looking at Pic 1 that both levels of surfaces are used. I can't quite tell which one the slide is resting on but I doubt that both need to be lapped. Can anyone else confirm this?

Rance

Edit: I meant 'It appears to me from looking at Pic 1 that both levels of surfaces are NOT used.'

Hello,
Of the shape Z, only the angle and the bottom
shapes need rework.The gib adjustment screws,with
the locknuts,set tension for the slide.The odd one is
for temp. locking of the slide.
Bear

A couple shots i didnt include that might give perspective -- anyway .. i i know the thing is wobbly and all -- but i'm concerned with getting something going -- i guess build it and i can always make it better later.. trying to get a rig going to learn from and i can always disassemble and make better...

so what i need is bipolar stepper drivers for my vexta 3.25V 2.5 A motors for this XY x-slide. Of course i dont want to pay $100 for the driver and Will probably build one myself --- There are single solution chips which can drive a TIP 120's ( or do i need bigger) to get the needed current for these motors.

If I hook up the bipolar outputs from a lg. scanner to one of these motors (under no load) would it burn out the say .5 Amp ouput of the Chip that drove the small stepper ? (this is a quick way that i might the 2 vexta's as they are from surplus/salvage)..

I ordered 2 driver boards with L298 as the basis which give 4 A .. H- blidge ..
they were about $17 each. They have LED's to indicate steps .. hopefully my vexta bipolars will be close enough of a match for them ..

Where'd you get your boards? I'm in the market for some right now, too.
Keith

Haven't gotten them yet .. but ordered from Robot Objects but should have gotten the ones mentioned here as they do 2 more Amps. These have a much smaller foot print and probably less heat dissipation and less power use. But probably could have wanted those extra 2 amps someday sooner...

question: why would you want a 4 amp driver when for $2 more you could get a 6 amper ?

chronon1
The L298 driver kit from Robot Objects is a DC motor driver, it doesn't have the sequence logic for a stepper motor.

Yeah that was all coming together in my head as I was reading the spec for the nice little PCB kits I get to solder . They look nice -- but now I have to get logic together to drive them... H-bridge logic I guess.

Doesn't seem like it wwould be too complex of a logic driver arrangement to do that .. but the step pattern is more complex than for uni-polar of course.. any goood sites
for a simple driver circuit to push the L298 bipolar?

chronon1
I have a board on my website for the L297/L298 combo. You could use that as the basis or just etch and build it.

Can you give me the direct path \to what you provide on your site Phil ? I was looking but you have a good amt of stuff there...

Meanwhile , back at the specs, on pg8 of

http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/1773.pdf

it looks like I need a 297 to drive the 298 so that I can feed the proper signals to get the output out of the 298. A couple R's and C's and some signal conditioning : CTRL , SYNC and HOME -- I presume these are home limit switches... I presum I could uses my ROBO objects 298 brd in conjuction with either a homebrew 297 or a nicely done L297 as a driver for the 298...
I don't want to buy a whole nuther 297/298 combo when i already have half.. unless they r economical ...

dang Phil .. don't you use AIM or YIM in addition to ICQ ?

chronon1
Website is http://PMinMO.com (Look at my signature ;) ) The L297/L298 board is http://www.pminmo.com/l297-8/l297-8.htm. The L298 is used for DC motors as well as steppers. Idropped ICQ, just to much of a pain. My aim handle is prmoore ANd I just started a yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PMinMO/

First of all, so far far I read 4 complete threads and it great to see a wealth of info here, so congrat's to all.

Now on to why I joined.

Buliding my first CNC Engraver / Cutter Machine
needs to take sheet metal for custom computer
case designing 450 mm x 450 mm 2 mm.

and I've worked on some computer controller projects before mainly
using kit base boards Parallel and Serial Port.

Thinking of use older computer and photocopier maybe some harddrive
parts I've got all 12v and 5v step motors
any input on design specs and clamping system for material would be
a great help.

I'm also a bit of a graphics and design whiz so I'll help any I can
I mainly do 3d graphics work but I've had work the metal industry so
I can help out with manufacturing problems as well.

drop me line fellow CNCer's

hi

great thread this section of CNZONE over nineteen (19) pages of information

i heaps more reading to do on this thread

keep up the good work guys

cheers

Hi I am from montreal I know noting in electronics but i ca wel and follow a drawing I am a machinist and I love trobel shouting and find solutions. I have a 7 X 12 mini lathe and an mini mill that I will be very hapy to convert in cnc if I can be anny help let me know Marcel

I'd like to possibly build up a small, simple machine using the Harbor Freight/Cummins vice. Has anyone completed this yet, or was this abandoned for a better idea? I'd imagine this design could probably be used to machine aluminum, has anyone tried this?
How is the backlash?

I was the one who originated the idea on this site, so far as I know...

No, the idea has not been abandoned, but I also have not completed it. Basically, I got busy with my own business, and never finished it.

I actually have the bearings sitting ready to go, and want to try the drive ideas I had a while back. Monday and Tuesday are fairly light, this week -- after I finish some paperwork, I may get back to it. Thanks for the reminder.

Bottom line, from what I was told on another list, a while back, there used to be a set of commercial plans for these vises. Used a coupling nut for the drive nut. It was reputed to be extremely stiff and even capable of milling light steel. Considering what I have experienced with my own vises...I believe it.

-- Chuck Knight

After reading this I want to run out and get a couple vices from HF but I need to have some restraint and wait until I can price match these to Cummins. I'll probably price-match a bunch of things and end up spending way too much.

Wow. Steel, huh? That sounds promising!

After reviewing most of the 3 years of posts in this forum it seems to me that there was a lot of talk but little result as far as published plans for beginners (aside from the JGRO and a couple others). Am I correct? I can understand how difficult it would be to pull it together into one cohesive effort, with so many different skills and talents being so abundant.

My question is this: I came across this sight "solsylva.com/cnc", wherein he has published plans for 3 different designs for $35. I think it was a banner ad as I was reviewing posts in this forum. Was there any mention or discussion of this offering in this forum?

Does anyone have an opinion on those plans? It seems to me that $35 isn't much to pay for 3 designs considering the knowledge and skill required to integrate everything into a plan.

Thankyou

Hi, I bought the solsylva plans and am trying to get myself started on my build. The plans are excellent, even for a total noob like me and really great value. There's info in this thread:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21411

Edit: Delayed Reaction....$35! :eek: They cost me $25 only a few weeks ago.....has the price gone up now that he's getting more orders? If so thats really bad. But $35 is still a steal.

Yes they are $35.

Being completly new to this and having several hobbies including RC aircraft I would like to mention that I have read this area of the forum from the start. I did not gain any info until the last 4 pages so to you guys continuing on with this thanks.
For myself I have built a sinker EDM that is electronic but not CNC from scratch and would like to improve my learning skills (even at my age) to go CNC. Your mention of using a vise for the base intrigues me as I was thinking of using one of the small mill tables for around $200. I have also been gathering parts for the electronics and want to make something from Phil's site.
I have an old Atlas lathe and a mill/drill which I wanted to convert and was thinking of using 200oz. steppers from Hobbycnc but was told they would not be heavy enough. At this time I do not know which way to go so am making up my mind to start here to learn. My question is to Phil on his board's. How large of a stepper can I drive? I know that is basic to you guy's but I would prefer to be overboard with the motors than under and look to using them in a larger project.
Keep at it you guy's, as being new I am gaining more info and learning and do not feel like I am that stupid.
Thanks, John

Vulcom1, what mill beds are you seeing for $200?

The vice looks good for a number of reasons. The slide bearings and the rod are already in place so there's not a huge worry about getting them aligned. The vice already incorporates a clamp so there's no worry about finding a way to hold the material in place.

The reason I was asking is that at Busy Bee They used to be $250 then down but now in there flyer it is $119. 5 x 12 table and from looking at mine they are acme threads but they do have 4 adjusting allen head screws on each slide. I am going to buy another as the one I have has my tank mounted on it and the more I take it apart the more chance for a leak. This is a couple of pics and one is from the Bee's web site. I think all the suppliers have them like Harbour and that.
John

After reviewing most of the 3 years of posts in this forum it seems to me that there was a lot of talk but little result as far as published plans for beginners (aside from the JGRO and a couple others). Am I correct? I can understand how difficult it would be to pull it together into one cohesive effort, with so many different skills and talents being so abundant.

My question is this: I came across this sight "solsylva.com/cnc", wherein he has published plans for 3 different designs for $35. I think it was a banner ad as I was reviewing posts in this forum. Was there any mention or discussion of this offering in this forum?

Does anyone have an opinion on those plans? It seems to me that $35 isn't much to pay for 3 designs considering the knowledge and skill required to integrate everything into a plan.

Thankyou


Hi there CNCWannabee,

I have a design for a simple router that I'm working on. I have a 3D model complete with all components. See pics in thread below.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21731

My target is to have a complete set of detailed drawings and a machine built by the end of the year.

My plan is this; I create about 4 detail drawings, and then build the parts. Once the parts are built, I create 4 more detailed drawings and so on until it’s done. Then when I get to a point where I can assembly pieces together, I do. This way I prove out my design before working myself into a corner.

- john

I found a page with a pretty beefy stepper driver on it, it's a L297/L6203 combo that's good for 4Amps @ 42V. The same page also has smaller cheaper driver circuits and PCB's
http://engraving.majosoft.com/html/stepper_driver_board_with_l297_and_L6203.html

Hi. My name is Jenn. A friend of mine and I are trying the same thing. There seem to be many ways to develop new cnc's. Do you have any solid ideas as to which direction? I mean does it seem smart to sell plans, or kits that just need to be assembled. Should it be for wood, metal, or both? I dont know, I am new to all of this. This is actually my first post. How would it work if we wanted to share ideas? We have interesting "ideas". There is so much to think of though, from software to stepper motors. Do you like stepper motors? I just think that it is all fascinating and do-able. There is so much that can be done w/a desktop machine. It seems there is much more interest than I actually first thought. It's GREAT!! Looking forward to chatting w/all the bright peolpe in this forum. Oh, by the way, does the want seem to be x&y or x,y&z?

Hello all,

This is my first post to the CNCZone. I’m going to throw a lot of stuff out here so bear with me.

I have been casually observing the hobby CNC field. The hobby CNC groups have people with all sorts of backgrounds: manual & CNC machinists, newby and experienced microcontroller programmers, C and C++ programmers, some with a little electronics experimentation up to DSP gurus. It's true that it’s hard to fit everything into one product that everyone wants.

My background is in machine design and integration to include mechanical, electrical and firmware. I'm somewhat weak when it comes to programming a PC in a Windows or Linux environment. My interest for CNC is in the commercial side but I'm not going to pitch anything here. I would rather share some of my experiences in product development.

Assuming you have an XYZ machine built with a bed, lead screws, axis motors and a machining spindle of some sort, how do you control it? I have followed the EMC group for continuing development of EMC2+ and applaud their efforts but the weak link for me in machine design is the PC. Industry also uses PCs or embedded PCs in their designs. We have a LVD Strippit laser with a Windows 2000 embedded controller and digital servo drives. PCs are an accepted way to control but I guess I am more comfortable with electronic hardware. There’s something about being deterministic when you control all of the design.

There are several ways to move an axis: brush DC motor, stepper motor, brushless DC servo motor, brushless AC servo and linear motors round out most of them. I tend to stay away from anything with brushes from a durability and longevity standpoint and that includes router heads. I have a nice Bosch plunge router but still would not use it as a cutting spindle because it has brushes.

Stepper motors driven with DC signals from a microcontroller (or step & direction from a PC) are subject to harmonic resonance issues based on the geometry of the stepper and momentum of the equipment the motor is tied to. A 1.5” dia. ACME lead screw 48” long can have quite a bit of rotational momentum. Resonance makes the stepper’s torque fall off at certain RPMs and usually higher RPMs. A better method of driving a stepper is to use pulse width modulation (PWM) with 4 different 1/2H drivers. PWM also applies to about all motors. Instead of hitting one or more windings with a DC voltage to get it to move, PWM provides a smoother transition from one phase to the next. The PWM signals effectively look like sine waves and in the case of a 4-phase stepper sin(theta), sin(theta+90), sin(theta+180) and sin(270+theta) the motor will smoothly transition from one phase to the next without jerking.

How do you get 3 or 4 PWM phases from a microcontroller or PC? It’s not easy and I personally would not try it unless you have 40MIPs+ to work with. For my projects I thought about using the 56800 series of DSPs from Freescale. But then I thought again. Why spend another 6 months writing precision motion control software to control multiple axes? I don’t want to learn to program another platform at the moment. I resurrected an old numeric technique using an EPROM. The 8 data output lines go to high and low side drivers. My choice is an International Rectifier IR2183 high and low side MOSFET/IGBT driver. The 2183 is good to 600Vdc so it will certainly work with 90Vdc to 240Vdc motors. Two 6-bit counters are connected to the address lines. One 6-bit counter is connected to a constant 500kHz clock and this is the PWM counter. The PWM counter continually rolls through it’s block of 2^6 or 64 addresses. The data lines of the EPROM dither back and forth from the PWM counter and generate an effective phase ABCD voltage for a particular phase or angle.

An example - use a +/-50Vdc supply voltage and a reference angle of 30 degrees:

Motor phase A = 100Vdc * Sin (30 deg) = 50 * 0.5 = 25Vdc
Motor phase B = 100Vdc * Sin (30+90 deg) = 50 * 0.866 = 43.3Vdc
Motor phase C = 100Vdc * Sin (30+180 deg) = 50 * (-0.5) = -25Vdc
Motor phase D = 100Vdc * Sin (30+270 deg) = 50 * (-0.866) = -43.3Vdc

The second 6-bit counter on the EPROM’s address lines defines the phase. This counter is practically made out of two 4-bit up/down synchronous counters like a 74HCT191. The input to this counter is step and direction which any microcontroller or PC can spit out. The step and direction lines essentially point to the next (or previous if counting down) phase in the EPROM lookup table. Stepping through the phases will yield:

50Vdc * Sin (31 deg)
50Vdc * Sin (31+90 deg)
50Vdc * Sin (31+180 deg)
50Vdc * Sin (31+270 deg)

and

50Vdc * Sin (32 deg)
50Vdc * Sin (32+90 deg)
50Vdc * Sin (32+180 deg)
50Vdc * Sin (32+270 deg)

and so on. Since the 6-bit counter has 64 unique steps the phase resolution is actually 360 deg / 64 = 5.625 deg. This would be the granularity of a 6-bit phase counter. You can use an 8-bit up/down phase counter is you want a finer step. Some people call this microstepping when used with stepper motors.

A typical square wave driven stepper motor only sees 45 degree phase changes at best using ½ stepping so going to a 5 degree step is much smoother than 45 deg.


Stepper phase A, B, C & D using half stepping:
Electrical rotation
0 1 2 Etc.
A – 11000001 11000001 11000001
B – 01110000 01110000 01110000
C – 00011100 00011100 00011100
D – 00011100 00011100 00011100

Using an EPROM driver per axis would allow better control of a stepper and even work on a 3-phase brushless DC motor like an LRK. For 3-phases the EPROM table would need to be configured for 0, 120 and 240 degree phasing. This is still an open loop control scheme but if the motor is stronger than anything it is driving it should not skip a step.

I have also developed firmware algorithms to coordinate timing of multiples axes. The method applies to any number of axes. This basically uses a $2USD microcontroller to listen to a central heartbeat and coordinate it’s axis motion with that of a central clock keeper. My Bridgeport’s Heidenhain controller has a 0-100% machine speed potentiometer to control the overall program speed. My hand is on this control constantly as I am proofing a CNC program. It’s easy to overlook a rapid axis traverse speed when your bit is plowing material. I’ve broken a few tools and some too small to see. The central heartbeat would use interrupts in the 20-30kHz range and be scalable down to zero with a potentiometer on an A/D input. Since all axes listen to the G-code heartbeat they will push their axes at the rate of the heartbeat whether it is 20kHz or 5Hz. The numeric method in the heartbeat controller is similar to a direct digital synthesizer (DDS) as implemented in hardware. A software implementation of a 24-bit DDS would yield stepping resolution of 20kHz / (2^24) or about 0.001Hz resolution. Tektronix and other companies use hardware DDS methods in arbitrary function generators to generate accurate waveforms with milli and microHz resolution.

Why precision coordinated axis timing control? If you want to move your X, Y-axes from 0, 0 to 1, 1 you want the cutting bit to reach X=1 at the same time the Y-axis reaches 1. If X made it to 1 and then 100ms later Y reached 1 you would not have a straight line from 0, 0 to 1, 1. Now imagine you are cutting a circle where the X-axis is barely changing while Y is changing at it’s fastest point. For a circle the X-axis may only move 0.1% as much as the Y-axis on the left and right edges of the circle. It is important to have a machine capable of finer resolution than you need in a part or you will see stair steps in the circle. Using a 24-bit DDS lets you move any axis in 1 part out of 2^24 positions which is more than adequate for wood working or even metal working with a large table. A 10’ table with 0.001” of axis resolution would let your cutter move from 0.000, 0.000 to 120.000, 0.007 as the finest increment in Y would be 0.007” per 120.000” of X-axis travel. A 32-bit DDS algorithm (also not difficult in firmware) would drive the finest axis step to ~0.03 thousandths over the full range of the machine. If anyone has questions about DDS techniques I would be glad to assist. I’m sold on it.

Enough for now. Bottom line is it is possible to spend $20USD/axis on a microstepping motor driver and $30USD on a high torque brushless DC motor like an LRK and have a good reliable solution capable of performing like a commercial drive system in the 750W/axis range. I hope this helps a few people. I am too busy to continually watch this thread but I’ll try.


Dennis
Omaha NE

hey mah ;

i m also new at this site and also CNC bulidng world...
please add my name to list... may be we can have meetings on net...
we are actually team consist of 2 mechanical and 2 electronician and sotfware guy.

please inform me with your answers and actual projects

If you guys do all the preliminary work, I would be interested in creating some\most\all of the 3D models and 2D drawings..

someone else has to build the thing and take the photos and make parts lists and all that. i am busy, but design work can be done quickly, depending on what is involved.

R

thank you man

"How do you get 3 or 4 PWM phases from a microcontroller or PC? It’s not easy and I personally would not try it unless you have 40MIPs+ to work with."


A $2 micro with 4 pwm's, ATtiny2313, Mega48, etc. NBD:)

I would be interested to help out with a plans set. Probably the most confusing to a new hobbyist is the electronics. So I would contribute to that section.

I am just starting my own router design and will be developing a unipolar driver board employing the Allegro chipsets.

Their best micro-stepping PWM drive can do 36 V at up to 3A per phase. I will be building an opto-isolated 4 axis driver with limit and home switch inputs. The board has onboard current limit adjustment and LCD display of the current limit setting via a PIC ucontroller and 2 line LCD. I already have the schematic designed, but I need to get some boards made and I am waiting for chip samples. Allegro seems to be rather tight fisted with their chip distribution, which is a problem for small volume buyers like hobbyists.

Eldon.

My name is John Steyr and I live in Toronto.

I am a mechanical engineer and have no problem with designing machinery, but controls are a different matter.

I theach in a college and my students just finished building a CNC router.
I could send you pictures if you give me your address.

I am willing to exchange mechanical design for electic control specifications.

If you like the looks of the machine, I can give you some drawings right away, but the design would have to be simplified for people without machine shop. We have at the college a huge machine shop, so that was not a problem.

jsteyr@sympatico.ca

How do you get 3 or 4 PWM phases from a micro-controller or PC? It’s not easy and I personally would not try it unless you have 40MIPs+ to work with.

Attiny2313 @20 Mhz 4 hardware PWM 2 x 8 bits, 2 x 16 bits set and forget, it is not necessary to have a DSP for that.

PWM sinusoidal quadrature voltage waveform generation, as I understand you are suggesting, will make it rotate, but you are forgetting that what is needed to keep a constant torque vs angular position are sinusoidal phase currents 90 degrees apart (for a two phase motor). You are also forgetting you are driving an R-L circuit, and also that, as soon as it begins moving there is BEMF present. One thing is moving the motor, a completely different one is getting accurate positioning. An stepper motor will behave like a synchronous AC motor, but you need to drive it the right way.

most of you guys seem to be engineers, i must be stupid to have thought of trying this.i need to build a 6"*6" machine. the mechanical part is pretty easy but i have no idea about the stepper motor or the controller circuit.the specs are availible everywhere but i cant make sense of them!!!