I posed my question in order to capture your attention.

I too love to build projects from the ground up. I currently run a business where we design and build custom machines. It is very rewarding.

What I do not understand is how people strike out to make one of these so called; poor boy CNC mills or routers with the intent of saving money and still spending a few thousand dollars. I have found what I think is a better alternative. Purchase an old NC machining center, complete with motors and drives, ball screws, table, spindle……….. and just drip feed the control from a PC.

You could conceivably buy the old iron for a few thousand, okay so maybe the tool changer doesn’t work, or the spindle is slow. You would still have several thousand pounds of iron, capable of large cuts and likely more accurate than your dremel driven homemade job for comparable money.

I know many people don’t have the space, there are also shipping costs, you would need three phase and a host of other lesser obstacles. I just want to include my opinion, which may save somebody else the hassle. This may not be the best option for a person who is doing it purely for the glory, but if your goal is truly geared toward relatively cheep, but very functional it should at least be considered.

The fun of building and customizing it?

A reason to build is cost. You can get into it on a shoestring and getout early if you don't enjoy it. If you do keep going, then you'll learn more during the process of building IMO. For me, most of the costs are in software which is unrelated to the machine. I'm still not regretting it.

Yet I would like to have metal machining center:)

Brunou,

I do understand the fun aspect. It is fun to build custom machines.

Glidergider,

What grade of machine are you building and how much do you expect to spend?

I have known people to drop between $4,000 to $12,000 and at best end up with a machine that can make .050” cuts in steel, with slow travel speeds. If they have spent less than that they end up with something like a Shearline which can barely cut aluminum.

I think many people are to optimistic, they start out thinking they are going to spend a few hundred dollars and 40hrs. They end up more like $3500. and 400 hours and the result is usually a metal working toy. The people in the $4,000 to $12,00 range purchase a mill/drill or a knee mill and by the time they finish the mechanical and electrical portion they could have purchased a real piece of iron and a PC and still stay on the low end of this price scale.

Concerning the educational aspect. You could also decide to geek out on a real machine, learning as much as possible about the workings and design aspects and end up with more marketable experience than a what you would from a hobby project. I know that the two experiences are different. My point is, in the end you end up with more machining capability, little difference in money and more common machine experience in general.

The question is what is your real goal and what are the realities of the two approaches?

Rgeo,
I built the JGRO. Here are my costs:

$zero for my old WIN2000 computer
$75 on wood
$160 vacuum system (2hp, from Harbor Freight)
$200 lead screws, plastic, nuts, bolts, hardware
$450 on electronic/motors etc,
$800 on software

The fun of building, the fun of learning Mach3/VcarvePro
PRICELESS :)

I've spent thousands of hours and I wouldn't trade a minute. I do want a bigger table, and if I get one, I'll probably build that one too. MechMate has free plans, large sizes and a big support group to help too.


Brunou,

I do understand the fun aspect. It is fun to build custom machines.

Glidergider,

What grade of machine are you building and how much do you expect to spend?
<snip>
The question is what is your real goal and what are the realities of the two approaches?</snip>

Masochism, put some crazy low cap on the amount you’ll spend and beat your head into a wall LOL. Before motors and drivers my 4’X3' should come in at roughly $400 it’s made of steel tubing and I am planning on lining that with concrete and secondary internal split tubes to combat resonance on the longer members . With the motors and drivers it looks like it will come in at about $850. Now with the amount of time I’ve got in it I could of gotten a second job at Starbucks and bought a nice new machine doh. Ok your right it’s the glory I get it from my grandfather I just have to see how far I can go with almost nothing. If I try enough times maybe I can get something when multiplying by zero. It will probably be a $850 dollar paper weight, if that is the case I will justify the whole thing with everything I’ve learned. I doubt I will be able to stop my self from trying to multiply by zero again though. Besides my wife actually encourages me

I've noticed, most folks that build their own cnc machine plan on cutting wood.

Sure it's easy to find a huge mill, compared to a router table on places like ebay etc... , can you afford the shipping, shop space?

I'm sure most diy folks don't plop down $5-10 grand all at once, on the routers they build, If they spend that much at all, I'ts drawn out over a long period of time, so it won't hurt the wallet as bad.

It's all about what you plan on doing, with the machine, routers are plentiful, low cost replacement (Home Depot) & the tables are easy to build! :)


.

Well I believe I did all I could on the cheep side.

Got my round pole gear head mill from Harbor freight for 600, made the conversion plates and such from Home cnc to make it CNC then used it to build my 4x8"

Since I re-used the controll (gecko's) to power both machines now I saved there. also for the money spent on the router table I'm pretty sure I could not have found a used machine that would preform as well (not as many CNC wood sign milling buisnesses going to auction as machine shops..hehe)

That said..

I only just picked up a series 1 v2r3 which hopefully would qualify as "old iron". seems like it's fully functional and cost 1000 at auction. a bargan considering it seems to all work but still have to learn how to use it vs mach which I think is easy (how ever even with mach I wish I knew more as I'm sure I could tune my other machines to work even better)

for 1000 + moving costs I could not have built or converted a standard bridge port and has as nice a machin (I hope)...hehe

Only down side maybe is it's 20+ years old. State of the art in it's day..hehe

b.

If you take your time and build to exacting spec's ( Unlike me! :o ) then for that $10k at the end you have a new machine, instead of a 20yr old hunk of steel that needs a lot of maintenance and possibly repair. At least thats my story and Im sticking to it! :p

I agree with all that you say; Glidergider and Zippy building machines is likely the most rewarding experience I can think of (I don’t have offspring).
Sometimes I get our company in trouble by giving a customer a reasonable quote for a machine, well with in the confines of what a quality, well made machine would cost. Then I go into psyco-mode and pimp the thing out so it looks like a show piece, has to many bells and whistles and we end up making it for cost. My partners freak out and the customer expects this level of workmanship the next time.

I understand industrial strength masochism. My gig is, lets get real. Think of how many more psyco projects you can perform with a beastie piece of iron on your floor, hogging of material, the wind in your hair, the roar of the spindle, chicks falling at you feet because you reek of flood coolant and being covered in the industrial glitter of metal chips. Now were talking.

Not to mention the fact that people are sometimes selling these old NC machines for scrap metal, that is until you ask to take it off their hands, then they want $3000. Think of it like this; viable awesome pieces of industrial antiquity are being melted down and sent to the far east. Let us who would like to have a metal working machine and who are willing and obviously able to deal with the technical problems unite, separately of coarse. And capitalize on the tragedy that is occurring all around us.

Free---dom!!!! (Gratuitous Braveheart reference)

In your original post, you mentioned both mills and routers. It's relatively easy to build a router for much cheaper than you can buy one for. A mill, otoh, is a whole different story. I'll agree with you there that you're much better off buying an old one.

Yep I agree.. I'd much rather see some one local keep the thing, move it to their basement and do things on the side rather then letting the next guy bid who's job it is to cart that tool to chille or some where in south america to have some one run it for a buck an hour..hehe

That way when we have to start buiding tanks again we will not have to go to south america to do it..hehe

I think a lot of the dificulty is in the tool moving area. Moving heavy objects is both hard to do (for an individual) and expencive to pay for. Assuming you are not moving it to chille where you will make up the moving expence in the first hours pay difference..hehe

Lot of great opertunity for tooling and stuff at auctions, With my machine I got some 20+ ericson chucks, and also ended up with a cabinet full of end mills and taps for ~100 bucks. Not sure what I'm going to do with the taps but pretty sure I will never have to buy another tap for the better half of my life.

b.

b.

Well for me building one instead of buying used is I dont need to put all my money up front too buy one, Just buy the parts when i can afford, plus im learning the mechanics of the machine, What kind of warrenty do you get from a used machine? None probaby, So if the machine I build breaks down then id have some idea how too fix. Graham

Well for me building one instead of buying used is I dont need to put all my money up front too buy one, Just buy the parts when i can afford, plus im learning the mechanics of the machine, What kind of warrenty do you get from a used machine? None probaby, So if the machine I build breaks down then id have some idea how too fix. Graham

Thats what I was thinking in my last post.

Sure we all want the best machine (do I buy the machine or, eat for the next 6 months?), then we snap back to reality . :)

.

Got to run now, but I have a bit to say about this.

RGeo,

I think you answer your own question with your very first sentence.

"I too love to build projects from the ground up. I currently run a business where we design and build custom machines. It is very rewarding."

I dont think you can put a price on love or rewarding. Some might say they have thousands involved into there projects but in the end and as far as my wife knows "I have maybe 500 dollars invested". Hell vcarve cost me that much.

Its a hobby and not a buisness as you are looking at it as. I get paid around 50 dollars an hour with full medical and dental. I could easliy go out and get new kitchen cabinet for a hell of alot cheap if you account for the time that I have invested into it. Look at some of the other hobbies out there. Golf, 200 dollars for 1 club and you have to buy alot more than just one. Pay for range time and balls that you loose on the course and god for bid you sign up for a club and in the end you are just wacking a ball around some grass.

If I had to make a living off of my machine (which isnt even done yet) I would have probably bought a used one like you mentioned. But as a hobbist I love to build things and enjoy what I am doing in my free time. Plus i dont think you can get the cutting area of a router that I have with the money that I have invested into it. Might not be the most accurate in the world but in the end I think it will out beat my table saw.

RGeo,

Look at some of the other hobbies out there. Golf, 200 dollars for 1 club and you have to buy alot more than just one. Pay for range time and balls that you loose on the course and god for bid you sign up for a club and in the end you are just wacking a ball around some grass.


Next time my wife asks why I'm doing this or that I'm spending to much money I can pull out this quote to show how much other hobbys cost. Add that to the time spent out side of the house rather then in the basement where she could come get me if needed..hehe At least this hobby has a slight chance at breaking even.hehe

b./

My 6x4 router table will likely end up at around $2500-3000. Much more than the originall $1000 that I thought would cost. I'm completely new, and the learning process is priceless. I also get a machine that fits my exact needs. Perhaps most important to me is that I don't want to rely on others to service some overly complex machines. What I build, I generally can fix myself. Nothing irritates me more than unexpected repair costs, and worse, dealing with the repairmen.

I didn't build my router for fun or as a part of some new hobby. I needed one that would have a 3' x 4' cut area and cut at 100 ipm with about .005" accuracy. I built one for under $1000 including 3 new Geckos. It's been running almost every day for over a year. I don't know how many hours I have put on it, but I'm on my 3rd set of brushes for the Hitachi that was also bought new for this machine.

Someone please point me to these wonderful used routers so I don't have to finish my 4' x 8'. Unlike many others, I find this stuff to be too much like work, although I can say there is no better feeling than when someone sees the machine I built for the first time.

I didn't build my router for fun or as a part of some new hobby. I needed one that would have a 3' x 4' cut area and cut at 100 ipm with about .005" accuracy. I built one for under $1000 including 3 new Geckos. It's been running almost every day for over a year. I don't know how many hours I have put on it, but I'm on my 3rd set of brushes for the Hitachi that was also bought new for this machine.

Someone please point me to these wonderful used routers so I don't have to finish my 4' x 8'. Unlike many others, I find this stuff to be too much like work, although I can say there is no better feeling than when someone sees the machine I built for the first time.

Thats the thing, half the folks are talking about routers the other half are talking about mills (not the same)


.

I can't imagine building a mill, and I have the upmost respect for those like arie who do. But router's, for cutting wood and softer, are a different beast altogether. :)

i think the reason people prefer to build their own cnc machine is because firstly most of us don't have thousands of dollars lying aound even for an old one where as with a little scavanging and jimmy rigging you can put together a machine that can provide just as good results as comercial units but at a fraction of the price
the cutting area also is somthing i have noticed that has been a costly area
eg my problem
i needed to cut out 1800X1800mm sheets of mdf
it cost a total of $400 for build a simple machine that will cut it up quite quickly with .01mm accuracy
we recently cut up a 600X600mm sheet of 10mm thick of aluminium with it,

For me, its something to do when the phone doesn't ring and everything else is running smooth . I have a transmission rebuilding shop , I have a good size lathe and a knee mill and love to work with them making tools and such. My small router table is almost finished and I'm currently working on the electronics , I have about $ 1200 into it ( making it out of Aluminum) and I could have easily spent that at a crap table in vegas in a 1/2 hour lol .

Nothing compares to the satisfaction of building your own .

Frank

Thats the thing, half the folks are talking about routers the other half are talking about mills (not the same)


.

Well, this forum is "DIY-CNC Router Table Machines". If you're talking about mills, you're in the wrong forum.

Well, this forum is "DIY-CNC Router Table Machines". If you're talking about mills, you're in the wrong forum.

Read post #1.


RGeo
Chip Sweeper Join Date: May 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 9


Why Build CNC When you can buy used?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I posed my question in order to capture your attention.

I too love to build projects from the ground up. I currently run a business where we design and build custom machines. It is very rewarding.

What I do not understand is how people strike out to make one of these so called; poor boy CNC mills or routers with the intent of saving money and still spending a few thousand dollars. I have found what I think is a better alternative. Purchase an old NC machining center, complete with motors and drives, ball screws, table, spindle……….. and just drip feed the control from a PC.

You could conceivably buy the old iron for a few thousand, okay so maybe the tool changer doesn’t work, or the spindle is slow. You would still have several thousand pounds of iron, capable of large cuts and likely more accurate than your dremel driven homemade job for comparable money.

I know many people don’t have the space, there are also shipping costs, you would need three phase and a host of other lesser obstacles. I just want to include my opinion, which may save somebody else the hassle. This may not be the best option for a person who is doing it purely for the glory, but if your goal is truly geared toward relatively cheep, but very functional it should at least be considered.

I also go by the old saying, When buying used you buy some one elses headache, Just like a car.

I built my own for reasons of price(upto £2,000 now £650 was just on software) . I managed to get the boss to sponser most of it(wouldn't have if I bought it 2nd hand???). Have enough parts left to build small second one.

I have bought plenty of 2nd hand woodworking machines in the past. From my experience £ 4 £ 2nd hand is the way to go. I prefer old table saws to new as their solid and haven't had the cost cutting on all the adjusters unlike the newer versions(pieces tend to fall of new saws when under hard use). But buy almost new edgebanders, double end tennors etc basically anything requiring complex electronics. Their are bargains out their but you need the time and be prepared to travel. I always take a dial guage/magnectic stand and vernier calipers.

I have decked out an entire timber custom kitchen/bedroom door production(approx 350 doors per week) area for less than the £100,000 it costs for a new double end tennor.

It's a passion. I've only got 2 passions in life, and the two legged one costs a damn site more than the machine version!!!

I have built a friendly relationship with our local rigging company, that and some scheduling flexibility will help save a bunch of money.

I had a 12,000# machine moved across town. It would have cost me between $1500 and $2200 had I just called it in. I waited, I negotiated, I waited some more and I got it done for $200 cash.

If you have the space, you can likely bide your time and end up with a real piece of iron, albeit with some sort of repair issue for as low as $1000 to $2500, this may even include shipping. If you can strike up a deal like that you can turn it in to a very rewarding project that can cut some serious metal.

As for wood routers, you are right. I have not seen many on the used market. I would make one too. However I would not use 80/20 extrusions like many do, I would weld a steel frame and lots of bracing. I have seen purchased machines made of 80/20 that rack all over the place. It is possible to firm them up, but the hardware is outrageous.

With milling machines weight is important, so are ballscrews and even; servos over steppers, that is if you wish to remove much material. These are a given when buying a real machine center, used.

It's a passion. I've only got 2 passions in life, and the two legged one costs a damn site more than the machine version!!!

lol quite right too.

I speak to my machine... usualy just before I press the big green button on a new job- "cmon baby, don't crash, please don't crash... Argh! Biiiitch!" *scrabbles for the E-Stop whilst narrowly avoiding shrapnel that two seconds ago was an expensive blank*

Anyway, I swear my machine has more intelligence than my girlfriend :)

Well, Not bad for my first post.

I wanted to see if I could generate some serious discussion / debate on the subject and I think I have succeeded in doing so.

My interest is purely in cutting metal, but I have found out a great deal about routers from many of you. I fully agree, I have seen few low priced, used routers on the market. I would build one if that were my area of interest.

I originally had and interesting combination of possibilities going at the time I began this discussion. I have three separate directions I could and each would yield a CNC mill.

1) I have a conventional Bridgeport mill that I have always wanted to retrofit.

2) I have a healthy cast iron X,Y table complete with linear rails, ball screws and medium sized stepper motors. I could quite easily come up with a design to do some light machining with this as my foundation.

3) I have recently purchased an old, used NC vertical machine center, complete with 15 tool changer and axes that operate. I have not actually run it yet, just moved the axes. I would have to purchase some type of software and run it from a PC, I am told from the original owner.

My goal in starting this discussion was to play advocate for option #3 and see what information I could glean from all of you. However I have not had very much support for what I felt was my promising of options. I do understand that I never mentioned that I have all three options in hand currently. I thought this would bias the discussion.

Before anyone starts to feel to envious of my situation, I must tell you that I am currently being forced to get rid of my machine center due to space constraints at my job, where they initially agreed to let me work on the project. I have considered having it moved to my residential garage, but it simply will not fit, the machine dimensions are 8’ x 6’ x 9’.

I am seriously sad about having to give up this awesome machine. I will now have to opt for #1 or #2 or some combination of the two. I know I will enjoy the project either way, but it will never end up as capable as with my true love #3.

I have heard that it is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all. To which I say; Whatever!!

Anybody in Ohio looking for a good deal on a machine?

Arrrrrrggg!

I'd say your #3 option would be easy to retro fit. The software to run it is probably as simple as Mach3. What are the table dimensions? What is the largest size you can cut?

Table is 36" x 12.5"
Travel is 26” x 14” x 19” xyz

I know where a used piece of Iron is [reasonable] it has a hiedenhain program 350 I think can a pc be hooked op to it ??anybody ,also lookinf for a mentor in Fresno ca area Help nyle reed