Hey guys,

I would appreciate some help and advice on which brands of 5-axis CNC's represent the best value for money while remaining rigid at all points in the machining envelope without being pathetically slow.
So far i have whittled the list down to Anderson, Thermwood, iCAM, C.R. Onsrude and Northwood machinery. they all produce the size of 5-axis i am looking for (y=1500mm, x=3100 or 6000mm and z=1000 to 1200mm). However, i have never worked with 5-axis machines before and have only worked with our SCM Record 125, prior to that i was a student at uni. I want a liquid cooled spindle (not fussed if the bearings are ceramic or not), 12 tool auto changer, automatic tool length sensor, aluminium matrix vacuum work table and ideally a programmable control so i can get it to track machine usage, maintenance intervals, and tool life etc..
Please find attached more detailed specs and some questions i have sent out to the various suppliers i have found so far.
Am i missing out any vital things to take account of? Since no one in this company has had experience with 5-axis machines before either, i am relying on my research and logic.
We intend to use the machine to cut 3d furniture, MDF molds and formers, moldings, hand rails, fiberglass trimming, aluminum tooling for vac forming and trimming of those parts, and just about anything else we can throw at it once we come up with it!! ;-) We also want to do some 3D nesting as well. Effectively we intend to push it as hard as we have pushed our 3-axis.

I look forward to hearing all of your responses, they will be well received.

p.s: it would also be nice if you could tell me which brand of software you would use to program the machine and why.

RonnyM82,

You might want to take a good long look at programming software for 5 axis machinery, before you get much further along.

That will make a subtaintial impact on your purchase decision.

Then, you need to have the final candidates run some sample parts for you, from designing from paper plans to looking at a finished product.

You will learn a lot in this process.

Good luck,

Blaine :)

why is that? what sort of stuff should i be looking for? i have been looking into Powermill 7 AlphaCAM V7 5-axis, masterCAM and surfCAM, any others i should be looking for? is it because certain software have machining strategies that suit certain machines? Most CNC manufacturers suggest a particular brand of software, do you think i should go with what they suggest?

RonnyM82,

Some controls require much tighter posts than others, while others are more forgiving. Some of this depends on the configuation of the control.

For example, if you have a Fanuc 5 axis control, and you don't have the options enabled for high speed 5 axis machining, you will get a very frustrating pause between block being executed, with 5 axis programs, that eats up a ton of time.

If the correct options are enabled, the contours are smooth and speedy, with no noticeable pause between blocks being executed. If the right options are not enabled, regardless of how good the g-code is, you will get the pauses.

Most machine providers have a preference, or at least a suggestion, if nothing else. They should have someone on staff that can provide support, that can be reached in a timely manner.

Good luck,

Blaine :)

Cheers for that Blaine, I hadn't considered that, so what i need to make sure of is that options that are required by the CNC control are supported both by the Post and the CAM software?

RonnyM82,

Again, "you need to have the final candidates run some sample parts for you, from designing from paper plans to looking at a finished product."

That is the best way to see what you are in for, as far as feeding code to the machine and setting up the materials to be machined, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

This takes the BS out of it, and if a company wants your business, the least they can do is earn it.

Blaine :)

Sure, the only issue with that is we don't have the CNC yet, and i haven't picked which brand or model we want. But i certainly do intend on getting the salesman to work for the sale, the MasterCAM guy has already told me they don't do demos anymore and instead provide a whole range of videos and tutorials to look at instead. So in my mind he has already lost the sale unless something jumps out at me that means i have to have it.

RonnyM82,

I understand the MasterCAM guys reluctance to set up, and demo live. A post can take a bunch of time for a 5 axis machine.

However, the machine providers should be able to show you exactly what is outlined. If they can't demo the machine the with your specifications, how can you expect to use it in production? The machine provider needs to be able to support you, you don't want to get caught in a finger pointer session.

Blaine :)

I think i've got my pick of the bunch, the difficult thing down this end of the world is having to deal with service agents instead of the manufacturers themselves. It's very frustrating, i'm almost more comfortable dealing with a manufacturer in the states who doesn't have any agents down here just so i can deal with them directly. anyway thanks for your input, will be taking it all into consideration.

From my experience I can say that Mastercam should be the CAM soft You choose. Alpha CamV6 is still behind the Mastercam opportunities, strategies etc.Maybe You should try the training programmes - mastercam, Alpha Cam, trying to solve the most complicated situation, and analyzing the complicity of solutions.
We are using few Paolino Bacci machines - 6axis http://www.bacci.com/cgi-bin/bacci/pagina.pl?Tipo=macchina&IdM=33&IdF=11&Lin=.
Actually they match Your parameters along x y z, just take vacuum pumps not less than 100litres/min. Please take care, that calibration of these machines is quite hard - the encoders are not situated at the very last motion element. So there are problems with TCP precision. Rather often we choose to use only 3 axis machining for making moulds - the result is more true.
But machine construction is very flexible! The spindle head with four tools - is almost like a tool changer, which saves time for tool changing while operated.

B.R.
Edmunds

Its the model 67 with dual 5 x 5 tables
What a POS!!!
This thing is so flimsy the head moves around like a tuning fork
It has no stability what so ever
And I have found that if you run the head around to the 360 deg
position as if you are cutting the top of a box to height
It all of a sudden decides it cant go any further and indexes inself
right into the part back to 0 deg to finish the cut
No, I did not tell it to do this!!! the vibration tripped the limit
and this happens by itself
Time to retram the head again!!!
If I put an indicator into the spindle and push lightly it will move
about .020", so dont cut anything harder than plastic on this machine
And always take another finish pass

I like the idea of a router, But these machines in no way compare
to a true 5 axis milling machine
They are just not rigid enough, period
Very sad really, the bossman spent alot of money on this thing
But they are slowly getting better
Just not yet, I personally wouldnt buy one
And when you do decide make sure the dealer knows he has to provide
the cam post processor with the software and machine
So many people get burned for a $500 post program to make the code

We once bought a $120K machine, $14K software program
And when I found out they wanted $500 more for the post to make it work
I told them to come and get this machine out of here and never come back
The post program was delivered by the dealer in person
And he admitted that it's just another way to make more money
selling something they already had and cost them almost nothing
but the cost of a disk to deliver
Sometimes I think machine dealers are more shady than used car salesman
and lawyers put together

Widgits

the replies guys!! They have bolstered my confidence that i am heading in the right direction and looking for all of the right things in my selection of machinery and software. I loved what widgits had to say about the Thermwood routers, pretty much just confirming what i have already heard.

Ronny I have not seen one of these 5 axis machines, but I have been in the factory and watched one of their early production 3 axis machines run. Amazing is the only word I could use to describe it. This was way back before cnc machine, wood machines in particular got so fast. This machine was cutting 2" thick oak on a .050" trim pass with an American 5 cent piece standing on it's edge. The coin never vibrated nor moved during all the direction changes, acceleration or decceleration.

Assuming their 5 axis is anything close to their 3 axis machine it will be something.

I would nearly be willing to bet you that you will deal directly with the company on this one!

http://www.cronsrud.com/5_axis_g.html

Mike

i have looked at and had priced a cronsrud 5-axis, and yes they do look very nice, however, they are at the upper end of my price range, nevertheless i would be very interested except i have had to deal with a local sales agent and it would be their first sale. I wasn't impressed at all by how long it took them to get the information i required compared to the other manufacturers especially considering that it would be the first CROnsrud CNC (let alone 5-axis) in Asia-Pacific. Therefore they aren't at the top of my list and i won't be travelling to NC to visit their factory however, they will have a 5-axis at the AWFS show in vegas next month so i will be spending some time at their stand and discussing the options with them.

cheers for your feed back its encouraging. keep it comign guys you can never have too much feedback.

Better late than never but you may want to look at DMS
http://www.dms-router.com/
Finding a good 5 axis is tuff having rigidity. What are you cutting? I went with a machining center with a rotary-tilt table for B+C. I understand your envelope for machining is larger. See what they can do if you haven't done anything.Best
JC

I went to the DMS factory on my trip to the US. I was impressed by their machines and what they achieve in their modest factory. However, i was made to feel uncomfortable and unimportant. Since i had flown from the other side of the world to see them i was seriously offended by that! Kinda gotta wonder what the machine and its service is going to be like after that experience.

Sorry to hear that and your right. I'll say this I have bought two new and one used and their all the same. What about a used and do a retrofit with a new control. Go thru some used machinery places not wood but metal machinery Co. I know they have used woodworking and want to get rid of them. Its a thought. By the way can I ask what Are you machining?
Takes time!
JC

Another machine is an SNK now your talkin 5 Axis. Price new well used yea!
JC

D

Sorry to hear that and your right. I'll say this I have bought two new and one used and their all the same. What about a used and do a retrofit with a new control. Go thru some used machinery places not wood but metal machinery Co. I know they have used woodworking and want to get rid of them. Its a thought. By the way can I ask what Are you machining?
Takes time!
JC

I'm confused, i got the impression you were suggesting purchasing a DMS but then when i told you my experience you suggested you have experienced the same thing. Since DMS have only been around for 4 or 5 years i'd be extremely worried if there were a lot of 2nd hand DMS machines on the market. Do you know of any used machinery mercahnts i could contact? they are quite hard to find until you find a few a get into the 'loop'! We will be cuttign materials from light foam to plastics, soft woods to exotic hard woods and aluminum. we build super yacht interiors. smigroup.co.nz if you are interested

No-I didn't experienced the same thing from DMS - Sorry for that misstatement on my part. I was just commenting on the fact even my own experiences with other Mfg. during my purchases new or used, I had second thoughts becauses of promises or product performance. I just worked around those circumstances.

JC

thankyou

Another manufacturer that you might want to look at is CMS. They are an Italian company with many locations around the world. I have one of their wood 3 axis routers, but have worked with many of their other machines.
One cam package that I have heard good things about besides mastercam is Delcam. I personally haven't used it, but several of my associates have used this and they like it.
Hope this helps.

Good luck

Paul