Hi All,

New to this forum and have enjoyed reading very much.

Have a couple questions and think this is where to ask.

We have a Fadal VMC 20 which has been very good to us.
I want to weigh out what the consensus is here to purchase another machine.

Also I was trying to establish where the various manufactures fit in? For instance
A. Mori Seki, Hatachi Seki....

OKK Okuma

B. Mazak Daewoo
C. Fadal, Haas...
D. lessor imports, not up on these.


For turning we have a Hyundai and I consider it a B machine and we are very pleased with it. Finish power ease of use etc. Semins control.

Would you guys buy a new Fadal or consider a used Japan machine that is 5 years old?

I feel we sometimes program around the Power and rigity (chatter) of the machine and with a strudier machine may be able to take larger cuts, get better finishes, Hold better tolerances, and pick up lots of time with a outside swing arm tool changer.

Finally is there a list of Orphand machines that there is not longer support. I am told Hatachi Seki for instance is gone.

any help on this I would appreciate.

Thank you
geo

I say buy a HAAS! We just bought a VF-5/50 with a HRT-310 rotary, through spindle coolant, auto air gun, part/tool probing, visual quick code etc. etc. etc. The price we paid was around $135,000.00. I feel that we made the best deal due to service and applications support from our local HFO and the factory.

The machine is a beast. I am not sure if you are looking for a 40 taper or a 50. I say go 50 if you can afford it.

The control is a dream to use. I could go on and on , but if you have more questions about the Haas feel free to ask.

James

I wouldn't say not to buy a Fadal. A friend of mine has two. If I remember correctly, Fadal has been bought out a couple of times in the last few years. That makes me nervous.

I am also nervous about anything that must travel 4000-5000 miles on a crusty tin can to get to the US. I would seriously look at HAAS service and attend one of the upcoming demo days. I go to every one and continue to learn something new each time. It is also a great place to talk to other owners and meet potential clients.

Good luck!

Fadal machines are made in the US. as far as I know. 'fact I know a guy that took a tour of the factory in Chattsworth.

Also Giddings and Lewis owns Fadal afaik.


Just for the record if I had big $ I'd get a nice new VF-3 with all the trimmings as well.

Okuma's are good, expensive on repairs. We run ours 24/7 pounding out car parts for ford.
Makino's are another good option aswell as Doosan (japanese) both run 24/7 and hold tight tolerances.
We recently purchased an Itallian Reillo machine, verdict is still out on it........
If you can, go new, don't buy someone else's headache, Have you considered leasing? we lease our Makino, and they do the PM service on it.
We use our Okumas and Dooturn Doosans for turning operations on very heavy cast iron, these machines deffinetly take a beating and still give us tight tolerances less than thou!
hope this helps

Depends on your application, If you are running lots of aluminum, and soft materials, the fadal is "OK " but the standard answer I got whenever I had tooling problems with my 4020 was, the machine isn't beefy enough, of coarse the majority of my material was 4340 aircraft super clean ..36-42 HRC . the main problem we had was slippage due to blown belvile seal in the top end. The coolant mixture PH really needs to be monitored for all thru- spindle machines or the result can be costly to repair. The haas is also a great machine for most applications, however if you are used to the "neat" built in can-cycles of the fadal, it is going to take some conversion of your programs to run them in the other machines.

Bill

First thank you one and all for the replies.

Is the consensis that the fadal is heavier duty or lighter duty than is't arch Nemis Haas?

We run Cat 40 and that is what most of our parts are sized for.
usual stuff is 2" long and 1/4 to 1" wide.
Materials are 416 cond T 12L14 1144, A2, O1, L6, 410 4140 and 4340 both of the last 2 at 42 rc.
Alum in 6061 and 7075.

Milling out the center of a 1x1x3" alum block the machine will only take off so much (7 1/2 hp machine if that) so I want more power and more finish. I would expect with that comes longer tool life.
Chatter with a 1/2" end mill is anoying if nothing else.

What does an Okouma MX45 cost new?
used ones are around for under 50k

Good advice on the demo days. of my friends with Haas and Fadal the fadal's are more reliable. much more with the 6 guys I know that have both.

How much more is service on an Okuma than fadal or haas?
the parts are more and the service guys time more?
double?

Tell me what happens when the ph is off? does it kill the seals or ??? Wanted more machine, much faster tool change, better finish. MORE.....

thank you again for the replies. Nice to have a resourse like this.
geo

One thing to consider about Haas service is that all technicians are trained at the factory. I know several other names in our area that has tech that only pretend to be factory trained. Also lokk at how many Haas HFO's are out there compared to the other reps. Also take a look at the Haas service vans. Almost any part you would need is in the van. If not, you'll get it from Haas "CALIFORNIA,USA" in 24 hrs. I also have a Haas SL-30 Big Bore. In 2 1/2 years I have had one service call and it was my fault. I run that machine balls to the wall!! Also, you get a core charge on major componets that are replaced. If a servo motor goes out, you won't pay full price. Try that with Fanuc!

Also consider that Fadal makes three lines of machines. Boxed way, linear way and half box and half linear. So make sure the comparison is accurate. I would say that a boxed way may have some advantages, but I would put my VF-5/50 against any Fadal without hesitation.

Haas is responsible for the entire machine. Hardware, software, options, control etc. Most machine tool companies use Fanuc or Mits. You know the blame game. When you have a problem, the machine tool company says its the control company and vice versa.

It is a tough choice, but I say " Buy New"

Anyone have a 3020 or 4525 new heavier (and I literally mean heavy at 14,000 and table load over 4,000 lbs)

interested how these compare with a B or A level machine.
they are trying to compete.
Box ways wider
Heavier screws and motors
Heavier casting
tool arm changer
cool screws etc.
22 hp

these address my concerns, but would like to know if
it translates into better finish bigger cuts more rigid
and faster?

Thank you again one and all
geo

I am a big fan of the japanese machines. My moto is the controller is 50 to 75% (depending on the end use) of the machine. I usually try to buy machiens with Fanuc, Yasnak (sic), or Mits as they tend to have a reputation to run. The Mits is the weakest of the three in my experience.

I am not a Fadal fan mostly because of the PC based control.

I would not buy a machine based solely on mass. I would look at the spindle taper and build, frame design, and axis layout. I would avoid a machine with more than one ballscrew per axis. I would look at boxed ways for beefy stable cutting.

Hope this helps

Do a test cut!

Get yourself a process that represents the kind of machining you'll do then have the CNC machine builders run this program for you...
They will all volunteer this at no charge, this is the best money you'll ever spend, no kiding...
By $ I mean, the cost of your tooling, material and time...

Check out this supplier too:

http://www.ycisupermax.com/

A great value for a quality product, good service organization and good reputation...

we have fadals, mori sieki, and okk verticals.
fadals have a place in the industry but my shop has outgrown the place.
our working tolerances on new projects prohibit me from using the fadal most of the time.
my okk and mori are both quality machines and i usually get what i expect from them.
my mori has required the least amount of service over the last 5-10 years of all my machines.
the okk has the largest memory capacity for 3-d programs.
every machine is worthy you just have to find the right application for it and not expect more than it can do.
my worst fadals are used for roughing blanks for other machines to finish

We have a 6030 Fadal, 2 6030 Mazaks, Makino V55, Makino SNC64 GS, and a Okuma MCVA2 (which is a large vertical bridge. Unfortunetaly we have 2 4020 Fadals also. I say run from Fadal's they are probably the worst machining center out there. Buy yourself an Okuma or Makino and save yourself the money and cycle time. That is not just my opinion that has shown to be pure facts for us.

I have owend/operated fadals many yeares, but now we use
kitamura. Makino, mori seiki, matssura, kitamura, and a few
others are all high end vmc. They cant be compared to haas or fadals. You will also pay big bucks for these machines. It all
depends on the job application these machines are being used for. The high end machines were designed for 3 shifts, 365 days
a year while haas and fadal were not. They cost more to repair
but they also break down less times. If machining critical components or high production jobs go with the high end stuff,
you will be a lot happier in the end.:D

Be careful with HAAS.

I've been using them for many years, they're great machines. The service center, however, has taken a very sharp turn for the worst. As a single example of many, we've got a machine with less than 100 hours, just over the 1 year warrenty, which has likely toasted a vector drive. We called them before the warrenty was up and are still likely going to have to pay the $5,000.00 to fix it. They are not admitting that we started getting problems before the 1 year was up, and we can't prove it except via a tech guy that doesn't work there any more.

I can assure you that we WILL NOT be buying another HAAS if we have to pay for this.

I'm not going to go in to the in-ability to talk to a person any more, or the attitudes and double-talk we get, or the 2 weeks we waited for a tech guy to show up, only to find out that he hadn't been dispatched in the first place!!!!!!!

It seems they built a great reputation with a decent machine and good support, then ditched the support side thinking people will still buy their machines.

If you're reading this, Mike Flower or anyone else from HAAS, guess what... we won't be buying another machine from you based on your poor service.

'Rekd

Originally posted by scott333
..I say run from Fadal's they are probably the worst machining center out there...

LoL, you've never run a Milltronics have you?

'Rekd

Matt,

At least a Haas has a well thought out, consistent and reliable control. In my experience with FADAL's, I'd say that the FADAL control was far from a role model for reliability and consistency. Some of the things one has to do when using a FADAL control get to be a real pain in the ass after awhile.

jon

Agreed, jon. My only complaint about the HAAS control is having to look away from what I'm doing to change jog modes. (I don't have the remote for any of my HAAS')

But the best control in the world, which it's not, is absolutely NO good to me if I can't get good service from the factory when the machine goes down. I've got better things to do with my time than wait for a HAAS tech that hasn't even been dispatched, like playing trucks with my son. :D

Their loss. Like I said, if it doesn't change back just as rapidly as it went downhill, I'll never buy another one.

'Rekd

Matt,

I guess I'm old school. When I started in this trade in1993, it was on Matsuura's. About 2 years ago I watched 1980's vintage Matsuura's, in top shape and properly maintained, sell for $12,000 at an auction in Phoenix, AZ. One of these machines must have sold for over $150,000 when it was new.

The control maybe out of date, the spindle speed maybe slow but if you need a machine to mill stuff like aerospace alloys, and your not doing surfacing or lots of aluminum, then as far as I'm concerned Haas and Fadal can stick their machines where the sun don't shine. Further, I have never heard anyone complain about service from Methods West.

If it's not obvious by now, I don't feel one can even compare the quality of construction of a used well maintained 1980's vintage Matsuura to a new Haas or a Fadal.

jon

Rekd,
Unfortunately when I started at the place I work now the only machining centers in the place were two Millatronics. Oh my how far we've came.

Hey Matt havin bad time with the Haas support.? surpriessed to hear this.
I like the Haas machine due to the support ease of use, and have found them to be good for the buck.

Not saying the Fadal is bad but I really hat the old DOS style controls from my view and they have not really changes in years.

By the way As someone had stated Fadal is about 20min from my place in Chatworth and is one of are MC customers.

But Haas is about 40 min and to one of are Customers.
I have spent a good amount of time at Main Haas programming sevrial of the proto type mahines over the years.

JM2C Haas if the choice was between the two.

Between Fadal and Haas it is overwhelmingly Haas. all aspects. operation, support and reliability!!!

Anyone have a 3020 or 4525 new heavier (and I literally mean heavy at 14,000 and table load over 4,000 lbs)

interested how these compare with a B or A level machine.
they are trying to compete.
Box ways wider
Heavier screws and motors
Heavier casting
tool arm changer
cool screws etc.
22 hp

these address my concerns, but would like to know if
it translates into better finish bigger cuts more rigid
and faster?

Thank you again one and all
geo
I have a 2000 3020 Performance Series Fadal. I can say this is the most riged
machine in the shop. A 1/2 4fl carbide in Titaninum last's 30% longer on this machine than when we run the job on our Haas vf3. This machine comes standard with Arm tool changer and 24"Z. Options on my 4020 and Vf3. My next vmc will be a 3020. Not one Service call in four years.

I guess that we shoulda got a 3020 then. instead of the 4020 w/ fanuc 18.
ours still isn't running. bad power supply is the guess now. 2 weeks and the clock is still ticking.

I'll go for the jap machines. We have a 4020 and a Mazak FJV-20 sitting next to each other, and there isn't even a comparison. We just ran a fairly simple part on the Fadal, 6.5 minutes on the Fadal, offset every couple of parts to bring the holes back into size, then just the other day, we ran the same job on the Mazak, same feeds and speeds, 3.5 minutes, and never had to make an offset. Those tool change times and dinosaur rapids will kill you. As far as the Haas goes, all you ever hear about them is that their service is great, how do they know this, becasue they are always broken. As far as how Mazak service calls are, I couldn't tell you, it doesn't break, and when we have had a few minor problems, getting parts is quick, and their 24-7 tech support is quite handy.