We ordered one of the new 3016FX machines from FADAL and it should be on our floor tomorrow. Hoping to be up and running by the end of the day. Does anyone know if the standard Fanuc post from my Mastercam will work on the OMi controllers or will I need to create my own? Also, we ordered ours with a network card, any issues with this or is it plug and play?


-Thanks
-Edward

I hope your mill works out for you, I have been waiting for someone to buy one. They look like they would be a fine mill. As far as the Mastercam post I think the standard Mpfan or Mpmaster.pst would work fine. If you bought the look ahead you could setup some misc. integers and that should work, or just manual input code.

We did get the look ahead option and data server. What integers would the post need for look ahead/high speed machining to be optimized?

As far as a review I will post something as soon as we run it. OR EVEN WHEN IT GETS HERE! BUT I'VE GOT TO VENT ABOUT OUR VENDOR FOR FADAL! THEY SUCK! We've been toyed with ever since showning interest in buying the machine. First, we were almost sold a demo machine at full price which we refused (they happened to leave out the part that it was a demo too). I've seen hot shot salesmen crash demo machines at shows-no thanks! Then the best part: promised delivery since last tuesday! NOW WE'VE BEEN TOLD NEXT MONDAY!!!! WTF!! What's the big deal you may ask? Well, yesterday was our promised final day to get the Fadal...So what did we do? I had guys come in early, disconnect power and move machines out of the way so the rigger can squeeze it in here. I wasn't laughing when the machine never showed. Now Beside the back-log of workm I'm out thousands a day until this machine gets here. I'm ready to get our lawyer on the phone.
I've been spending my morning running make shift extension cords to the temp machine locations just so I run something. Otherwise I'll have to pay a rigger another load of cash to put them back and then move them again when the Fadal gets here.
Our Haas machines weren't on time either but at least let us know in advance.

WOW, a hate to hear that. I wish companies would get their act's straight.
If you or I were to run our companies that way we would be out on our ear in no time. My Haas was a month late but they did tell me. The post mods you need, would be where to ad the look ahead codes into the program. You can get the codes from the Fanuc manuals and tell your reseller you would like to have them post out and they can help. If your reseller want help, then go to emastercam.com and ask someone to walk you through the post mods.

I'm very curious on what you say about the FX series in a year to six months. I'd be interested in one if it was good.

Mark

did it show up?

The guys from our CNC vendor are setting it up now. I forgot to order pullstuds for our Cat40 holders so It'll be a day before I can review it's cutting capability. I will say this (being unbiased from the delivery mess they caused me of course) I'm not too pleased with the build quality of the machine. Haas has them beat there. I'm hoping the controller makes up for it. (As well as the box ways).

-E

Mid-Atlantic CNC has left us to rot. I apoligize to everyone for not getting an update on the performance of this machine. Since this vendor has dropped off the CNC (late as usual) then installed it (which we've been charged $1500 extra for) just to tell us they've never used the new controller and can't even show us how to get started. I've spent a day on the phone with Fadal in Ca. (no, not the vendor but me!) just to figure out how to get the controller on our network. We're able to ping to and from the fast ethernet but now we are unable to load programs to the data server to cut anything.
Additionally, I've spend my own time to read thru the Manual to even set tools, Csys, etc. However, we're only able to run simple things since I come from the land of MasterCAM. Unless the Vendor can make good on their "$1500" worth of training and setup this will be our first and last FADAL ever purchased.
I had none of these issues with Haas. In fact, I was cutting mold cavities 15minutes after the installer finished his quick run through. Additionally, he setup our network connections to it as well.
Last but not least, you get what you pay for- Build quality is poor! I.E. Any one own any JET shop equipment? I'm not kidding. I'll have a list with pictures posted soon after I start cutting some steel finally.

I'm sorry to here this. I truly thought FADAL would pull their head out of their a$$ after the 104/d crashtastrophy!!

I'm sorry to here this. I truly thought FADAL would pull their head out of their a$$ after the 104/d crashtastrophy!!

104/d ?

Possibly Fadal does not hold itself to the same standards it applies to its suppliers.


http://www.fadal.com/index.php?id=787

Should of bought a Haas!

The following is my (and my co-workers) honest review of the machine so far that is both accurate, detailed and unexaggerated:

**Let me disregard all the BS our Vendor put us through with their lies, lack of knowledge, and poor response and just focus on the 3016FX machine.

1. I’ve used (to its limits) many machines such as Mazak, Brown and Sharp, older Fadals, Pratt and Whitney, and a couple of others. I currently use several Haas Machines and I am NO rookie when it comes to machines, their controllers, or operation. I must say this one ranks pretty low.
2. Build quality at first appearance is low. Paint quality is standard but all the exposed black oxide cap screws and button heads make the machine look like it has a disease. Almost everything about this machine screams cheap. Like seeing daylight thru the corners of the cabinet-which leak if you blast the coolant too hard. Or why not use lexan for removable side doors instead of sheet metal that rattles. None of the buttons light up (nope not the on/off). The cycle start and feed hold buttons are tiny keys on the keyboard and are on the opposite side of every machine I’ve ever used. Speaking of the buttons- CHEAP! They are nothing more then clear plastic caps snapped on top ink-jet printed labels. NO JOKE. Three of them fell off in the first day of typing. I had to glue those back in. (see attached pic.) The list goes on and on.
3. The controller w/this new data server is so new on this machine that Fadal in CA could not get me on my Network. I had to call, on my own of coarse, Fanuc support and try to get my $6800 worth of controller options working. I got worried when Fadal couldn’t tell me where the RJ45 plug was? I found it inside the operator’s panel (after removing 10 button head screws and sheet metal cover) behind the LCD screen mount. “OOP! Did we forget to move it to the outside of the machine?....or put a knock-out for it??” Needless to say after 8 hours of phone and IT support I was able to drop a 10meg file on the machine drive, which is just a 1gig flash card. I can test the surfacing, machine speed, look ahead, etc. Now the only problem, the data server is always dropping my connection (which done only through an FTP connection-silly). I have to reboot the machine to reconnect. Fadal has no clue and blames my network. Meanwhile my Haas machines run 100+meg surface program day and night as regular mapped network drive without fail.
4. Ok. So my program is there. Let me setup now. Tool offsets and G54 setting is just as archaic as the 1980s controllers. You may not have to enter the values or back figure manually anymore but getting to menus are a waste of keystrokes. Here is a good one! Want to load a tool? press two, not one, ½”x ½ ” square buttons on the controller and then stick your arm in the machine. There is no coolant proof button at the spindle (ie.Haas). Be careful those buttons have a delay.
5. The next tool button does not work nor does the manual coolant button. Fadal service is going to fix that.
6. Navigating the menus and controller is comical. I feel as if I’m in Apollo 13 but with a pretty color LCD screen. It’s 2007 people, do we still need to call things “FWD, RWD, PUNCH, READ, etc.” anymore? When’s the last time you saw a paper tape reel? Why so many blank fields? It makes tabbing thru menus more time consuming. I can’t use the cursors to scroll down the lists of almost anything. After all, this is your LATEST? I’d laugh but my wallets hurts too much.
7. WHY WHY WHY did Fadal combine the federate and Rapids control into one knob! This is not just stupid but dangerous. I was never a fan of the 120% max overrides on the spindle and federate to begin with but this horrible. Especially checking on drilling routines.
8. FYI, there is no door switch override parameter. Even though I was fooled by the button that said DOOR-OVRD, I broke a carbide end mill when the spindle and feed stop to check something. Nope that’s a useless button which I was told does not work that way.
9. Forget using the Manual guide i….it’s as intuitive as PC BIOS compared to Haas or Mazak systems. I can write G-code faster.
10. SO now let me cut a waffle surface as fast as I can. First with AI on and with AI off. It did, yay! Only took two full day of playing with this boat anchor. AI on: nice finish but slower than I thought-about 150in/min avg. AI off: OK finish, tolerance affected, of course as with any machine it stuttered. However I can’t get the machine to cut faster than 350in/min. Why? The service guy told me the machine was factory set to a max of 8900mm/min (about 350in/min) at all axis. YES, they did claim 800in/min in the brochure and there demo cuts at 500in/min (I don’t know if its real-my speed judgment is not that accurate from the video). Our Fadal vendor is looking into this.
11. Time to go home and fight this battle tomorrow. Shut the machine off. Wait? Why does it sound like it’s still on? That’s because none of the cooling fans ever turn off- EVER. They’ll last right up until my warranty goes at which point I’ll need to replace them on my dime. Hit the main breaker. What a sh*tty experience this has been. Did I just buy the YUGO of the machine tool world?

Bottom line: I made the wrong choice for us and what we do in this shop. I want a refund and should have bought something else.


Yours Truly
-E:)

elaganis,

I am sorry for your bad experience... A lot of us here on the zone are wondering:

What more could we have said that would have made you hear us?
Did you read the older posts here in the Fadal Forum? I ask only because you don't have that many posts, and your 1st dates back to 06/15/06

One way of seeing the most viewed posts is to sort by views, did you ever try that?

My advice to you and your company:
1) Remain anonymous if you can at this point. That way you can be brutally honest and not worry about offending your supplier who is watching this site by the way...
And this is good advice for anyone writing their honest opinions on the Internet. No one here is any more respected because they have revealed who they are in this forum. It is the quality of your ideas that gets attention.

2) Make Fadal take it back. You cannot keep equipment intended to make you money around that will only get worse... Trust me.

This is the best free advice you're going to get. If you would rather pay someone to give you more reasons, I'd be glad to help... PM me.

elaganis,

What more could we have said that would have made you hear us?
Did you read the older posts here in the Fadal Forum?

OK, if I may ask, what is the concensus here? (I've skimmed through the Fadal forum, but didn't catch a clear direction)

A a quick glance at the FX specs and pricing made me wonder if it didn't have some "cheap" areas or perhaps some bugs to be worked out, but Elaganis's expericence here makes it sound far worse yet!

I'm still looking more at the re-manned 4020, so maybe it isn't an issue, but when the dealer tells me I'd be as happy with either a reman or an FX....now maybe I should worry again. The service from HAAS around here is excellant, and FADAL as well; the FADAL dealer has really been going the extra mile on the sales end though [and a couple chats with FADAL were very impressive too], while the HAAS dealer won't even let me see a new or used machine under power. Thus FADAL is looking really good [with box ways too!], but you guys are scaring me again. Maybe Milltronics?! :confused:

I know, I know, production apps like heavy machines, but the budget doesn't, and going with a local servicing dealer is imperative [every brand can turn out a lemon], as we want same day service and next day parts at worst.

Sorry about the tangent Elaganis, sorry too reading your horror story - but I appreciated the information it provides for those of us still looking. Good luck!

Hardrocker,

Machine service and sales varies from one area to another. So that can play a role. It's why my friends who own Spidertrax in Co. are so loyal to Haas even though we all grew up on Fadals and Mazaks. I'm not knocking the Fadal for it's box-ways either. The machine is over 8500lbs. One of the heaviest ones we looked at! But most of our issues are with the "NEW" control which you've read. The newest one being this:
Everyone's seen the FX website's video demo of the machine cutting Steel at 500ipm, right? So we decide to try it for ourselves. Well the machine can NOT feed at more than 350ipm in any axis (yes, AI is turned off). The website and flyer claim 800ipm is the max with 1000ipm rapids. We can't hit that. We are currently looking into that with our vendor and Fadal. If the machine can't do 800ipm or even 500ipm well that's false advertising. However, is the machine rigid at our max of 350ipm? Based on what we cut, yes. but Fadal has some explaining to do.

-E

PS: This is as fair as I can be. (for the FADAL people sending me PM's in this forum)

I saw a 3016FX cutting demo at IMTS...it appears to be the same workpiece that is currently on the website. However, at IMTS, they were cutting at 260 ipm (for sure...I saw the controller) and I believe 6500 rpm. It was 4140 steel with a serrated 1/2" endmill.

In my opinion, based on the sound of the above described cut that I personally saw at IMTS, that was about all that machine could do, in terms of structure rigidity. If it were my machine, I wouldn't push it that hard...there is no way it will last cutting like that. (lots of low frequency vibrations and shuttering)

I know there is a parameter you can set in the Fanuc control to override the maximum feedrate. In my opinion, this feedrate limit is there for a reason.

From the demo, it is hard to judge the cutting speed, especially the trochoidal cuts. Sure, they could have cranked up the feedrate to allow 500 ipm. But to make 0.5" diameter trochoidal cuts while maintaining 500 ipm, the machine must be able to pull over 0.7G. Just an observation.

In the demo, they may have commanded 500 ipm, but that doesn't necessarily mean the machine actually did it.

PS: This is as fair as I can be. (for the FADAL people sending me PM's in this forum)

Thanks Elaganis; for what you've been through, I'd say you've been very fair. I've not given up on the re-manufactured Fadal; infact, probably is the route we'll take; however, I'm glad we didn't pursue the FX farther [I doubt the budget would have been allowed anyway], it sounds like there are some issues to work out yet and I need some tried and true balancing on this one!

hardrocker,

I suppose the "tried and true" history you speak of, is the experience you have had with Fadal. Please don't get me wrong but the performance of any Fadal is at best C class. And I am being more than generous. Personally I would rate any CNC that Fadal makes as D class (below C average). Having now some time with their main competitor Haas, I would not give the Fadal the same rating as the Haas, I'd give them the C Class which they share with a lot of other average CNC machines. Especially concerning factory parts & service...

I think a lot of American manufacturing needs to wake up and compete with our offshore competitors or else join the other industries that have already jumped on the slippery slope of mediocrity

I'm just sayin...

hardrocker,

I suppose the "tried and true" history you speak of, is the experience you have had with Fadal. Please don't get me wrong but the performance of any Fadal is at best C class. And I am being more than generous. Personally I would rate any CNC that Fadal makes as D class (below C average). Having now some time with their main competitor Haas, I would not give the Fadal the same rating as the Haas, I'd give them the C Class which they share with a lot of other average CNC machines. Especially concerning factory parts & service...

I think a lot of American manufacturing needs to wake up and compete with our offshore competitors or else join the other industries that have already jumped on the slippery slope of mediocrity

I'm just sayin...

Thanks!

Actually, I was referring to Fadal legacy vs. Fadal FX. While I'm a bit more familiar with Fadal [at that, I've probably spent more cumulative time with everything but the two in question -which is still small-small fractions of the time many here have], the company I'm with currently has a Haas in the toolroom; no other VMCs at this time [the products here seldom have machined features], a few CNC knee mills.

Regardless, that is the type of information I was really looking for! Maybe, I should have been asking more questions around here earlier: the Fadal re-man is more or less the fore-runner now.

The Haas service has been nothing but great here; though their sales dept. stumbled by not allowing us to view machines under power [while the Fadal dealer actually set up time for us to run our actual parts in an identical unit and said if we purchased one we could do the same before the exact unit shipped]. From a previous company [but same Fadal rep] I remember the Fadal service almost as responsive [and perhaps as responsive, but I don't recall ever trying to have parts overnight there]. Milltronics' factory is resonable driving distance for that matter; but I doubt that's out of the "C" class either. On the positive, this is definitely a VMC operation, but nothing too taxing on the CNC end.

It'd sure be nice if an [or a few] US machine makers would take things up a few notches and compete - and US industry in general for that matter. But enough dreaming for now: I doubt I'd seen the budget for an A or B class machine regardless of origin!

As mentioned before.
If you need to run some production and have lots of tool changes. The chip to chip time on the Fadal Umbrella changer is horrid.

In My Opinion the reason many shops stumble around at what I call mediocrity is they don't do their homework to justify a better class CNC.
Ask yourself: How long would it take a shop like mine, to make up the additional cost of an A class CNC. Say that is 100k extra...

That may sound like a lot of money but, when you're talking about a piece of automation equipment that is 100% faster than a C or D class machine.

Take a look:

In My Opinion the reason many shops stumble around at what I call mediocrity is they don't do their homework to justify a better class CNC...

I don't think you should be too tough on people who, as you say, stumble around in mediocrity. :) Your numbers are valid...provided your machine is running on jobs that are making money all the time. If you have your expensive A class machine sitting idle the amortization cost, loan payment or lease payments very quickly can eat up any gains you made.

This thread is getting interesting, but I think I inadvertantly hi-jacked it; sorry about that Elaganis!

Ironically, I'm ussually the one ranting about how a company can be "penny wise, but dollar stupid." Personally, I ussually find quality pays for itself in the long run. In this case, for this product, operation, & volume [8hr X 5 days 50% duty; 25% cutter engaged duty]; I'd like to think I'd be leaning the same even I was writing the check myself [no, actually I'd want a 60X30 and run some tool-room projects on it!]. In reality, I'm now at the point of hoping a check is written fast enough that I'm not debugging the operation at the last minute.

Of course, in this case, we're somewhat set on the dealers in question; so I maybe be stuck inside the proverbial box [errr boxways?....ok bad pun].

Your numbers sure look appealing Scott_Bob. This product is way too new to know if we'd have much on time savings (loading the machine is figured at half the time), of course, with those numbers we could afford a pallet changer....then attack the cycle time, and afford twice the machine too!!! Oh yeah! :rainfro:

It all makes sense here, but then this project would figuring the labor at a fraction of the shop rates listed, so I don't think it'd get too far with those whose ink is worth more around here than mine!

As mentioned before.
If you need to run some production and have lots of tool changes. The chip to chip time on the Fadal Umbrella changer is horrid.

Actually, there is a tool change, but I can deal with 5 to 10 seconds chip-chip if the reliability is good. If it drops tools on the other hand, that would confuse the operator to no end, and likely cause a crash after it was "fixed."

hardrock, have you ever run a 6030, or a 8030?
They are the slowest Fadal you can buy...
25 second chip to chip tool changes.
One of Fadals (legacy) downfalls is their Rapid Traverse routines:

Test your Fadals Rapid rate:

O1(MAIN)
M98P2L20
M30

O2(SUB)
G0X0.Y0.
X9.3969 Y3.4202 (10.0 LINEAR)
M99

(20 * 20" = 400")
If your Fadal takes 1 minute then you have a CNC that rapids at 400"
If your Fadal takes 2 minutes because of Acc/Dec then you have a CNC that Rapids at 200 ipm.

What do you get?
Why?

Let us all know here on this post what you get from what machine you have.

Let's do an experiment.

Actually, there is a tool change, but I can deal with 5 to 10 seconds chip-chip if the reliability is good. If it drops tools on the other hand, that would confuse the operator to no end, and likely cause a crash after it was "fixed."

Our Fadal has a 14-16 sec chip-chip time.

Small production example 1000 parts/cycles, 8 tool changes = 31.1-35.5 hours of TOOL CHANGES on just one job!

Some of our production runs have tool changing times that approach cutting times on our Fadal.

Our Fadal has a 14-16 sec chip-chip time.
Small production example 1000 parts/cycles, 8 tool changes = 31.1-35.5 hours of TOOL CHANGES on just one job!
Some of our production runs have tool changing times that approach cutting times on our Fadal.

I have many parts that take 6 to 10 tool changes but each part is not very big.

The solution to reduce the time spent on tool changes per part was to get a machine with a bigger work area and use double lock vises.

We moved from a Haas Super MiniMill with two Kurts holding a total of 4 parts to a VF2 with three Kurt double locks holding a total of 12 parts.

The VF2 toolchange is slower than the Super but because it does three times as many parts per tool change the time per part is greatly reduced.

I have many parts that take 6 to 10 tool changes but each part is not very big.

The solution to reduce the time spent on tool changes per part was to get a machine with a bigger work area and use double lock vises.

We moved from a Haas Super MiniMill with two Kurts holding a total of 4 parts to a VF2 with three Kurt double locks holding a total of 12 parts.

The VF2 toolchange is slower than the Super but because it does three times as many parts per tool change the time per part is greatly reduced.

I hear you. We went in both of those directions at the same time. Just got a Mazak 510C2...has a bit more work area and much quicker everything. A part that ran for 6 minutes on the Fadal ran in 3.5 minutes on the Mazak WITHOUT increasing feeds/speeds. When I cranked up the spindle and feeds, that same part was being done in 2:20. No kidding.

Not to get too far off the subject, but I've seen similar gains on lathes. We were running a job on a 1987 Mori and switched it over to a 1995 Okuma Howa and realized a 25% reduction in cycle time just by switching machines. Faster rapids, shorter Z travels and a servo turret on the Okuma were the main factors.

Bottom line is you get what you pay for. The question is, however, is what you pay for really what you NEED for your type of work. I know many many mold shops that run Fadal because they are (were from the sound of the FX series) the best bang for the buck. They were running 28 hour cycle times for 3 or 4 cavities and could care less about 15 sec tool changes. There's nothing like a fast machine for production. Trim a second here, trim a second there and it adds up. It'll take a long time to add up in a mold or prototype shop though.

:cheers:

I know at least 4 mold & dye shops that took their Fadal machines control off, retrofitted with a PC based control and improved their cycle times by at least 300% and made better looking and more accurate molds.

With an added 40k spindle, improvements of 600% is possible.

We had a 3 cavity Mold that took 36 hours to cut on a stock Fadal 4020
Same program (after increasing speeds and feeds) on a Leadwell CNC and a PC based Numeryx Control 20k spindle, cut a better looking, more accurate mold in 3 hours, No Kidding! 1/10th the cost to produce that mold.

But what does a guy do with the 33 hours of time saved?
He sets up the next job and saves time on it. Then the next, and the next...

Your savings are exponential.
It is not worth buying a C Class or D Class CNC.

Bob......all people on the forum are not 3 years old childrens. 600%, yeah.
Ok i assume that you have a bad experience with Fadal. Get a therapy.

Class of machine? D class. The amount of money that machine cost is equivalence to what you get for it.

And one more thing. Peoples makes molds, not machine. Theres no point to give 300K € worth Okuma to stupid worker. He will do thesame **** as he will do with a hammer and a cleaver.

Konstukter1,

Thanks for making my point as to the kind of people who buy Fadal CNC machines...

:) Good one.

Look, with every machine you can work.
Its like driving a car. I like diesel motors, where i can easy cruiz with 1500 rpm. For me thats the way, for some ferrari fan, car that i drive..........yust like fadal for you.

I dont think that Fadal that i have is the best machine on the world. But i can do everything that i need in my shop with him.
When i will need extra XXX K rpm, i will buy electrical 150K spindel (In europe for 6000€).

I dont think that for moldmakers makes tool change time such big diference.
My father allways say : You must work as little as you can on machine and slow as you can and meanwhile make the most money.
Thats the way i like it. I can easily make 30-40€ per hour on Fadal. And how much can you?

I suppose I'll answer my own question from Post #27...

The Fadal Legacy control has a unique feature that dramatically slows its overall performance. You can see this feature in action every time there is a Rapid move that requires 2 or more, and worse if you Rapid in 3 axis (which few of us do). The servo spins up to speed then when 1 of the axis needs to slow down for its target, they all slow down, then if there is distance to go the remaining servo spins up to speed "again" till it needs to slow down for it's target. The resulting Average Rapid Traverse Rate is slower than the individual axis rate.

Included Charts show the Fadal servo performance of "One 2 Axis Rapid Move"

Ok.

problem is easily solved by using right CAM software.
I use solidcam, highspeed milling, where machine dont use G0, but G1 with rapid feedrate.
And again, if you make good NC code, then you dont have lots of rapid moves.
So .............

And the question remain. How much do you earn with yours super rapid moving machnine?

I suppose I'll answer my own question from Post #27...

The Fadal Legacy control has a unique feature that dramatically slows its overall performance. You can see this feature in action every time there is a Rapid move that requires 2 or more, and worse if you Rapid in 3 axis (which few of us do). The servo spins up to speed then when 1 of the axis needs to slow down for its target, they all slow down, then if there is distance to go the remaining servo spins up to speed "again" till it needs to slow down for it's target. The resulting Average Rapid Traverse Rate is slower than the individual axis rate.

Included Charts show the Fadal servo performance of "One 2 Axis Rapid Move"


Now there's one I've never heard of! I don't think it will hurt much for this project, but it is odd. Does the 32MP behave the same way [I think the boards are all the same]?

Hardrocker,

Yep, Many of the companies I used to work for all had MP32 controls, and when you average the Rapid Traverse Rate on a 6030 or bigger you end up with 250 ipm and 24 second chip to chip tool change times. This is just one of the reasons I have come down so hard on Fadal. I know they could do much better than this. Like they are doing with putting Fanuc Controls on their machines for example.

I don't run my own buisness, I work for someone else and I like it better that way...

And what about feedrates, does they also changes in fast 3d contour milling?
I run some 4 megs codes pretty fast and i dont notice any of them.

Kon,

If you only use G1 G2 G3 then your Legacy Fadal can only feed at F250. I think. Feed performance has less bell curve form than G0 so it is harder on mechanics (Ballscrews & Nut, Bearings). As I mentioned above Fadal's Acc/Dec on Rapids is bad on 2 axis unequal distance moves, but what % of your program has 2 axis rapids, Probubly not a majority. On 1 axis Rapids, a 4020 can Rapid with a smooth bell curve form at F750. Fadal 6030 can get 1 axis to move at F400. which is faster than the max G1 G2 G3 move, and have the smoother Bell Curve Form that is easier on the machine.

So 250F is about 6m/min? I dont realy use big feedrates then:)

I'm not sure why you didn't buy another haas where I'm from we call them fatals I would take a haas anyday over a fatal I mean fadal.
JOE

Joe, so you have problem with t and d. Realy helping.

Hardrocker,

Yep, Many of the companies I used to work for all had MP32 controls, and when you average the Rapid Traverse Rate on a 6030 or bigger you end up with 250 ipm and 24 second chip to chip tool change times. This is just one of the reasons I have come down so hard on Fadal. I know they could do much better than this. Like they are doing with putting Fanuc Controls on their machines for example.

I'd never timed a 4020, but I went to look at one and you are right the rapid and the tool change times are not pretty. Regardless, the way I'm loading several parts, I'm actually still thinking it may be the right tool for job [considering the parts availabilty around here and the budget the company is pretty much firm on]. I'll take a slow tool change if it's reliable.

Of course, due to some "analysis paralysis" around here, leadtime has almost become the biggest driving factor! On the positive, while I'm not one to claim that box ways will make a machine something it's not, compared to the similar priced linear machines around here, I'm thinking the box machine will be slightly more appropriate for the task anyway (all the cutting is in the Z; fairly low pressure, but I don't want any vibes throwing the table around).

Hey, back to the thread title, any updates? Good, bad, or ugly?

I'd never timed a 4020, but I went to look at one and you are right the rapid and the tool change times are not pretty. Regardless, the way I'm loading several parts, I'm actually still thinking it may be the right tool for job [considering the parts availabilty around here and the budget the company is pretty much firm on]. I'll take a slow tool change if it's reliable.

Of course, due to some "analysis paralysis" around here, leadtime has almost become the biggest driving factor! On the positive, while I'm not one to claim that box ways will make a machine something it's not, compared to the similar priced linear machines around here, I'm thinking the box machine will be slightly more appropriate for the task anyway (all the cutting is in the Z; fairly low pressure, but I don't want any vibes throwing the table around).

Hey, back to the thread title, any updates? Good, bad, or ugly?


Well it all depends how you want to look at it? The good is that our vendor and Fadal wanted to make us happy as best they could. However, without the improvements and issues that we needed resolved, especially those in communication, not due to us for sometime (possibly a machine/controller revision) they offered to take the machine back at no cost. We felt it was a pretty stand-up thing for them to do considering they could have left us with a machine without working options. After all it was sitting here and not making parts for almost two weeks. Granted they even had service people in here several times trying to remedy the problems but it wasn’t helping us. I worked late into the night and into weekends on our machines that were working just to catch-up. The frustration was there start to finish with this machine. We’ve all learned from this-Fadal included. I’d like to see this same machine a year from now after some of the issues are addressed which I listed. In the end we ordered a Haas VF-2SS more money-yes but we know what we are getting. The bad: we’re at least 8 weeks out from getting a machine in here.
Moral of the story do not buy a NEW model machine sight unseen. Take the time and road trip to a show or someone who has it. Ask questions, lots of them and don’t assume anything because 95% of the others CNCs have something similar or because it’s in the flyer. Key around the controls, watch the tool changes, etc. For small shops the wrong machine is no different than the wrong employee-either one can cost you money and aggravation.

-E

I gave away my VH-2 Haas throw away crap machine for 2 FX machines . The FX 's were up in running , with Data server the same day .
Sorry ..... but mine was not late .
I get atleast 25% faster cycle time with out changing anything. I got 43% by using AICC . smooth no bumping like the Haas .
to bad the some of the distibutors do not know the product . And I beleve that FADAL QA is much better that jail bait Gene's company .
I should have bought a Fadal in the first place !

CNCBIMBO, you stated the same thing in the Fanuc section a while back however you never answered my question there which was:

I'd like you to explain to me how you got 43% faster cycle times on a FADAL with AICC than a HAAS with HSM? Both do the exact same thing- slow the feed rate down to allow smooth flow transitions in CAM line or point to point segments (while using lookahead control). If you turn either one off you should get a faster but more inaccurate federate as long as the program is stored in memory. The sacrifice is the surface finish. So I call BS on that one unless your old crap Haas machines didn’t have HSM option and you’re running a low baud rate RS 232 connection. In that case let’s please compare apples to apples. Additionally, our FX’s cutting federate was limited to 350ipm max while the web demo stated it cut steel at 500ipm (and the brochure said it could do 800ipm). Try it, you’ll be surprised.
I’m NOT here to defend any machine manufacturer but to point out my experiences with them both good and bad. Trust me we’ve have had bad experiences with Haas as well as others and I’ve stated them.

-E

cncbimbo,
you're name explains it all you don't make any sense, how can you make a 25% increase in cycle time without changing anything????? duh is the rapid that much faster, if so the feed cutting time would have to increase you make no sense whatsoever are you drunk??????? And i wonder how can you give away 1 machine for two it seems one of you got the raw end of the deal look in the mirror. To bad they don't have a punctuation and grammar check on this site!!!!!

cncbimbo,
you're name explains it all you don't make any sense, how can you make a 25% increase in cycle time without changing anything????? duh is the rapid that much faster, if so the feed cutting time would have to increase you make no sense whatsoever are you drunk??????? And i wonder how can you give away 1 machine for two it seems one of you got the raw end of the deal look in the mirror. To bad they don't have a punctuation and grammar check on this site!!!!!



Yeah, Something does not add up. Perhaps they are using the new math. 43% is major. Maybe the Feed Overide and Rapid Overide were turned down on their HAAS. I know that my HAAS VF3-SSYT (Arm type TC) will change a tool and be back running in the time it takes my 2005 FADAL 4020 Siemens (Arm type TC as well) to get the next tool in the spindle.

Their machine probably did arrive on time....as they are in CHATSWORTH which is where FADAL is located. They get the best service and support in the LA CA area because FADAL can send their own people to support those machines.

I own three (3) FADALs ranging in age from 2000 to 2005. I was involved with the 140D. I ended up with a Siemens controlled machine which never has worked 100% since the day it arrived. The older machines are great workhorses though.

I ended up getting a HAAS because of the QUALITY of FADAL. I can prove that my HAAS VFE3-SSYT will outperform my Siemens controlled FADAL by 8%-10%. Some has to do with the fact that I can run slightly higher feeds because the HAAS has a 12K spindle. However, the tool changes and tapping routines are the killer especially on parts with 12 to 20 tool changes and 96 plus tapped holes.

MY $0.02.

I gave away my VH-2 Haas throw away crap machine for 2 FX machines . The FX 's were up in running , with Data server the same day .
Sorry ..... but mine was not late .
I get atleast 25% faster cycle time with out changing anything. I got 43% by using AICC . smooth no bumping like the Haas .
to bad the some of the distibutors do not know the product . And I beleve that FADAL QA is much better that jail bait Gene's company .
I should have bought a Fadal in the first place !


CNCBIMBO,
What options did the VH-2, although I have never heard of a VH-2, have? How old is/was the machine? Are or were you comparing apples to apples?
What is AICC? Is this software that I can puchase and if so please provide the contact information for the suppliers. I would be very interested in evaluating this software if it will increase my production by 43%. If this is proprietary (SP) software to Fadal, can we get our current machines controls (HS-88 or Siemens) upgraded with AICC or is this integrated into the Fanuc control on the FX machine? You probably wouldn't know the answer to the last question unless you worked for Fadal though.
I am interested in the statement of 'jail bait Gene's company'. I have heard that there were some allegations on tax issues. Was he in jail? Can you or will you elaborate more on this?
Thank you in advance on any information you can provide.

I am happy with the new FX machines I purchased . I am paying my bills.

As far as the faster cycle time , most machines have 1000 ipm . Its the acceleration to 1000ipm the FX accelerated much quicker to achieve the 1000ipm, .43g advertised .
The AICC is a standard 0i Fanuc feature and a 18i feature , I was told it is not a Fadal feature . AICC on the new FX machine w/0i , G5.1 utilizes the look ahead and contour control . Like the G8 but with out overshooting. AICC is an advertized feature , found on the brochures at Westec .
I liked the new velocity surfcam demo . This could be an option to use to get better cycle time .

This is were I got the information about my comment about jail bait .
http://www.answers.com/topic/gene-haas

P.S.Thanks I'll note to use spell check . Funny , I glad somepeople like the screen name , no I am not blonde , I am not drunk , and I have no time look into mirrors .

I am happy with the new FX machines I purchased . I am paying my bills.

As far as the faster cycle time , most machines have 1000 ipm . Its the acceleration to 1000ipm the FX accelerated much quicker to achieve the 1000ipm, .43g advertised .
The AICC is a standard 0i Fanuc feature and a 18i feature , I was told it is not a Fadal feature . AICC on the new FX machine w/0i , G5.1 utilizes the look ahead and contour control . Like the G8 but with out overshooting. AICC is an advertized feature , found on the brochures at Westec .
I liked the new velocity surfcam demo . This could be an option to use to get better cycle time .

This is were I got the information about my comment about jail bait .
http://www.answers.com/topic/gene-haas

P.S.Thanks I'll note to use spell check . Funny , I glad somepeople like the screen name , no I am not blonde , I am not drunk , and I have no time look into mirrors .


CNCBIMBO,
Do you have a website or some company information. I would like to submit some parts to quote. I would expect with the percentages you are showing you can machine parts faster and likewise less than what I can do on my older Fadals. If you are not comfortable providing the information thru the post you can PM me with the information.
Thank you.

The newer matsuuras have 1 g of acceleration does that mean my parts are going to be 3 times faster than yours? Have you heard of the no spin zone. I think it applies here.(nuts)

I think there is a little bit of truth to that. Our new Mazak (with 0.5G and 1417 ipm) made a part about 40% faster than our Fadal, using the same feeds and speeds.

However, this particular part was fairly long (20") and required a lot of cross part rapids. Still, most of the time was saved by tool changes. (~16 seconds vs. ~4 seconds, chip-chip)

If that part was very small, the rapids/acceleration would have a much smaller effect.

Still, the FX machines (that I've seen) piss away TONS of cycle time on the tool change, which you'll never make up with acceleration and rapids. I admit, axis and spindle accel/decel is improved, but that carosel needs to go.

Possibly Fadal does not hold itself to the same standards it applies to its suppliers.


http://www.fadal.com/index.php?id=787


Wow.

That is one of the most ridiculous purchase order agreements I have ever seen. I sell to companies a LOT bigger than Fadal and would never agree to something like that. Totally one-sided and anti-supplier. Who wants to have such an adversarial relationship with their suppliers?

I think there is a little bit of truth to that. Our new Mazak (with 0.5G and 1417 ipm) made a part about 40% faster than our Fadal, using the same feeds and speeds.

However, this particular part was fairly long (20") and required a lot of cross part rapids. Still, most of the time was saved by tool changes. (~16 seconds vs. ~4 seconds, chip-chip)

If that part was very small, the rapids/acceleration would have a much smaller effect.

Still, the FX machines (that I've seen) piss away TONS of cycle time on the tool change, which you'll never make up with acceleration and rapids. I admit, axis and spindle accel/decel is improved, but that carosel needs to go.

Which Mazak did you get? I am looking at the Nexus 510 Series. Any insight as to options to get or not would be great. We do high speed precision machining and mold making.

I find it very interesting that all of a sudden we no longer hear anything from the CNCBIMBO. I have requested company information and other info with no replies. I would think that with the macines running 43% faster that they would have time to at least reply. Maybe there is some bending of the truth. I just don't know.

Which Mazak did you get? I am looking at the Nexus 510 Series. Any insight as to options to get or not would be great. We do high speed precision machining and mold making.

510

I'll send you a PM...off topic

Thanks for the insight fpworks.. Now if I can just get rid of my FADAL 4020 Siemens 840D. Any serious inquires please call me. Thank you.

I hope you still continue to work out the bugs. I would also like to here your report on how is runs.

Thanks for the insight fpworks.. Now if I can just get rid of my FADAL 4020 Siemens 840D. Any serious inquires please call me. Thank you.


What year?

What year?

2005, The machine has 4th axis, side mount tool changer, 10K air oil spindle, wash down, chip conveyor, mold package. I need to get around $60K for the machine.