I am looking at buying a smithy 1240 cnc mill and have a couple questions. It will most likely be the full package with their controller as money is not a big issue.

-Will it work alright with Mastercam ? Mastercam does have Fanuc posts but I am not sure if they are right for this controller. (It is the software I am familiar with). What type of Cad are others using with success?

- Do people have alot of problems with stepper motors as opposed to servos? I plan on making a fair amount of parts off of jigs.

_ Is there alot involved in getting one up and running after shipment? I am fairly knowledgeble in mechanics and have done machining for 20+ years.

- Has anyone gotten one of their new 1240's with the belt drive and had the option of getting servos instead of steppers? I believe they had an older model with servos once.

Thanks in advance for any response to this.

I dont think anyone has bought this new machine yet. But you might find someone that will know the anwsers to the softwear question. Might be better to call Smithy up & ask them the question on the softwear capatibility.

I am afraid this setup is just to new for many to know much about it. Although there was a few that had bought to older machine. But there has been alot of changes made to the machine ( needed ones & some not so much). Like the new belt drive with VFD is a big improvment over the older gear headed machine ( or atleast should be). But droping the servos over stepper IMO was not a good thing, although steppers are nothing to be worried with, most machines do use them, unless its a factory CNC machine.


Jess

Hi Nupeswv,

Smithycnc 1240 claims 1700 oz-in steppers for xyz.

For a comparison, Tormach PCNC is 640 oz-in for xy and 1200 oz-in for z. Tormach claims the 1.5 hp spindle will stall, or the cutter will break before steps are lost.

I think both machines are pretty good, lots of videos at Tormach site, only one that I know of for Smithycnc 1240, however the machine is newer so they probably need time to post.

Tormach has ground ballscrews at P4, whereas, Smithycnc is P5 (are we going to grumble about .0003" difference? --a few of degrees of room temperature difference may negate .0003" anyway!!)

Again, I believe both machines are worthy of purchase.

Let us know what you decide on, we'd appreciate hearing how it goes for you!

jmg

The practical difference between the two is that with servos (closed loop)you can set your maximum feed rate closer to the limit of the system with less worry about lost steps. With steppers (open loop) you have to back off a bit on the maximum allowable feed rate in order to avoid the risk of lost steps and the ensuing crash. If maximum feed rate is of commercial value to you then go with closed loop. If it isn't a big issue then save some money and complication and go with open loop.

My opinion is that if you think you need a closed loop system then you probably need a fully fledged "commercial" machining center.

Just some thoughts from a novice.

Phil

I am looking at buying a smithy 1240 cnc mill and have a couple questions. It will most likely be the full package with their controller as money is not a big issue.

-Will it work alright with Mastercam ? Mastercam does have Fanuc posts but I am not sure if they are right for this controller. (It is the software I am familiar with). What type of Cad are others using with success?

- Do people have alot of problems with stepper motors as opposed to servos? I plan on making a fair amount of parts off of jigs.

_ Is there alot involved in getting one up and running after shipment? I am fairly knowledgeble in mechanics and have done machining for 20+ years.

- Has anyone gotten one of their new 1240's with the belt drive and had the option of getting servos instead of steppers? I believe they had an older model with servos once.

Thanks in advance for any response to this.

I purchased the Smithy 1240 mill four months ago, so far it has been a good machine, I have been using mastercam to cut parts and so far it has worked fine. No problems with the stepper motors. I have had trouble with the X and Y travel proximity switches, in fact I am waiting on a replacement for the third failure now. Otherwise no other maor issues.

Hi - I got my 1240 Smithy mill in early Feb. and have been using it regularly since. I am a machine designer/prototyper and use it to make parts for the manufacturing machines I make. I have done UNMW (40 hrs.), 6061 aluminum ( 50 hrs.), and low carbon steel (20 hrs). The 1240 performs well once I figured out what it could handle. For the aluminum I was using a 1.25 in. diameter 3 flute cutter with al. inserts for a lot of material removal. 3000 rpm, 15 ipm, 0.080 doc. The inverter driven 3 phase motor works well but under heavy load the spline clearances on the spindle shaft seem to contribute to some chatter. The belt drive is a blessing. I use Mach 3 and have found that when I increase the feedrate during machining the rapid feedrate is increase by the same percentage. I have crashed a few times because it lost steps being unable to move at 2X the standard 75 ipm rapid. The big stepper motors seem to be able to do anything I have asked it to do without a problem so far. I did break a 3/8" cutter one time by driving it (spindle off) into my material, the X axis stepper didn't even seem to notice. I have done some holding jigs that were 24" X 24" by revolving them about a fixed center reference pin. They turned out nicely so I am quite pleased with limits of the machine. Whenever I have needed to call Smithy there has been a person there to talk to and they have answered my question well. As far as setting the unit up the biggest challenge for me was unloading that much weight out of my Sprinter van and then lifting it up so I could slide the Smithy stand under it in my low ceilinged shop. Both tasks were accomplished with a chain hoist and a little creative rigging. There is little or no mechanical challenge involved in the uncrating and setup.
I use IronCad, Dolphin CAD/CAM (it has an IronCad addon that quickly send surfaces to the Cam software), CutViewer ( for cnc verification) and Mach 3 for machine control so I can't comment on you software questions.
So far I feel like I spent my money wisely and feel very good about having the Smithy.

Good Luck
Gary

Hi Guys,
I have been a bit worried about the purchase I got my boss in the US to do on a Smithy CNC 1240.
Other than hardly any information on the net about them. Hardly anything on their site.
And not a great deal of replys to emails.

It makes me feel a bit better that you guys like your machine.

Do you guys have any information on connecting the unit to the PC.
eg Confirgurations etc.

And any recomendations on setting up.

I'd love to see some of the work you guys have done on the machine.
Do you have any pictures at all?

I'll be flying over to the US in a couple of weeks to set the unit up.
Any help would be great.

Cheers
Rodney

The units come with some setup info, but you should be able to get them at Smithy as a pdf file upfront. The units are heavy.

If I was in your position I would check the following parameters first: 1.angle between table and spindle in x and y direction. Do this with a dial indicator. 2.accuracy of the table and spindle movement. Do this with dial indicator and reference pieces. 3.adjust the physical reference pieces. The work cube set up in China might be far less than the machine has to offer. 4. Control functions incl. cooling.

Hope that helps

Hi benji2505,
Thanks for the info. I finally got the info I need from Smithy.
They are suppose to dial the machine in before you get it.
But I will check it all out. Ta.

Rod

DMICHALS AND GSTUART,
I'm thinking of stepping up to a larger mill- What type of spindle drive does the 12-40 have- is it installed in USA or China?
How about the CNC- USA or China?
Any opinions on the reliability of them?
Thanks

I like the spindle drive design on the 120. Its a 3 ph. motor directly driving the spindle using a toothed belt. The spindle itself easily drops out of the head by removing 3 screws. I took it out once and it appears substantial enough for the job and would be fairly simple to rebuild or ship back to Smithy to have them rebuild. The upper end of the spindle shaft is a spline and on my machine the clearance between this spline and the drive pulley it engages is greater than I would like. I can grab the milling cutter and rotate it back and forth and feel the spline moving in the pulley. I was having problems with chatter when using a 1.25" cutter (on aluminum) and I had to reduce feed and DOC to compensate. I have since stopped using the R8-ER40 collet adapter I was using for heavy cutting because the collet adapter extended the cutting tool almost 3" beyond the end of the spindle. I think that additional distance was causing a lot of flex at the cutter end. I now use 1-1/2", and 2" cutters with R8 shafts and the operation is much more rigid. I liked the ER40 collet because bit changes were quicker but for the heavy cutting it didn't pan out. All in all I am still happy with the machine. I have attached a few pictures (If I can get them loaded) to show some of what I have been doing. The black material is 3/4" thick UHMW and the others are of some Aluminum assembly jigs I made.
PS. Upload is not working right now. Will persist.

Thanks-
Is it USA or Chinese motor- I am pretty good at fixing anything mechanical that could go wrong, but 3 phase VFD is out of my league, so i would want to know its good stuff. On my 3 in 1 machine I have about 0.008" lash in the spline shaft which is expected for a low cost unit. Its ok with small end mills, but you can feel the lash when you use a fly cutter. Its odd that an expensive CNC machine would have that issue too.

Smithy seems nice but I would never choose it over a Tormach. I researched this for 6 months before buying a Tormach with confidence and let me tell you it came I set it up and started making parts with close tolerances with no problems at all. And their tooling system is very nice and works great. I run this machine pretty hard on SS alot. NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. But the smithy looks nice over priced and have herd that it does not come ready to run? Call Tormach and you will be happy with your purchase. Smithy has been around for a while it does not have the travel. Do your homework compare over and over until you are sure.

highspeedmazak You are talking about a more expensive machine and alot of people are not going to pay that much. They want a starter machine they can learn on. You are in the wrong forum trying to push a product out of their price range. Sell your product elsewhere.

What the hell are you on digitalmdj?
Smithy 1240 CNC is the thread name and they are more expensive than a tormach. How do I know this?
My boss bought one. I did the research and it had a bigger working cube than the tormach. So we got it.

Personally with the sales support I got I think maybe I should of got another machine. 3 emails before I could even get a quote.
And responces on questions weren't that great either.

As far As know the smithy is ready to run when it arrives.

I think you are thinking of the manual 1240 digitalmdj?

Why does the 1240 CNC have splines on the spindle shaft.

If it is meant to be free sliding then the splines have to have a little free play in order to prevent binding due to temperature variations, manufacturing tolerances etc.

Phil

The upper end of the spindle shaft is a spline and on my machine the clearance between this spline and the drive pulley it engages is greater than I would like.

I think the question is about the overall tolerances of the machines. The lower budget bench mills and 3 in one machines will have greater clearances on the splines because the tolerances of the machining of the pulleys and the quill may not be that close and require some looseness in the splines to prevent binding as the spindle moves up and down. You would reasonably expect that on a higher priced machine designed for production CNC use, the overall tolerances would be much tighter and allow a closer tolerance on the splines.

The spindle does not move in a smithy 1240CNC or a 1034CNC, the whole head moves. The splines are a historic heritage, the machine base used to be a Chinese manual milling machine with moving spindle. The Chinese company just kept the engineering. We had the same issue with the play in the spindle and we had Smithy replace the whole machine head, which they did with no mourning (and we got the tech-history of it). We did it because of a rattling noise that was caused by an unbalanced belt pulley, not because of the spindle play.

To answer another question from earlier: the motor as well as the steppers are all chinese. The motor is rigid and good. The attached cooling fan is a little loud though, sometimes we wished it was controlled by a temperature control. The frequency controller for the motor comes from Korea.

Benji,
Thanks for the info. Sounds like it is a work in progress machine and most likely there will be a new model coming out without the spline drive. Chinese motors with Korean controller makes me nervous- too many possibliities of political problems causing shortages. I think Tormach has the best choice in this size machine.

Not sure I understand the political problem with Chinese motors and Korean controllers. A large portion of the Tormach is of Asia origin also. Many on the Zone build their machines from scratch so replacing the odd component from sources other than the OEM shouldn't stretch the imagination too much. I do agree on the spline issue though. It sounds like a totally unnecessary weak point. Makes you ask the question "what else".

Phil:)

Benji,
Thanks for the info. Sounds like it is a work in progress machine and most likely there will be a new model coming out without the spline drive. Chinese motors with Korean controller makes me nervous- too many possibliities of political problems causing shortages. I think Tormach has the best choice in this size machine.

Not sure I understand the political problem with Chinese motors and Korean controllers. A large portion of the Tormach is of Asia origin also. Many on the Zone build their machines from scratch so replacing the odd component from sources other than the OEM shouldn't stretch the imagination too much. I do agree on the spline issue though. It sounds like a totally unnecessary weak point. Makes you ask the question "what else".

Phil:)


I think the far east imports have opened a market that did not exist under "regular" circumstances. Now, technical hobbyists and semi-pros have a valid option - be it Smithy, Tormach or CNCMasters all for around 7k (The RongFu base from CNCMasters is not from China but from Taiwan). A lot of people have fun with this kind of equipment and I don't see the point of comparisons between a Smithy/Tormach/CNCJunior and a Kern/Haas/Hardinge. The old rule "you get what you pay for" is absolutely valid and everybody who buys a Smithy/Tormach/CNCjunior should make sure that she/he is talented enough to overcome potential issues and where to look in CNCZONE for potential issues.

Without having the live comparison: my impression is that Tormach is a little further ahead in making the Chinese product work for the American market.
Smithy gets the whole machine block incl. steppers and motor from China and attaches only the control, which they make themselves. I like the Tormach approach better to buy components in China and assemble them in the US (at least that's my impression from their website). The final check list for the machines ex works looks rather similar - ooops who copied here?

For the "what else" I can leave some ideas here on the forum: 1. we had issues with solid couplings and replaced them with flexible couplings from McMaster after the x-ballscrew came flying. The NEMA flange wasn't perfectly aligned. 2. We measured accuracy in x-y-z direction and the A-B angle. They were all (way) off, but it can be easily fixed by adjusting the proportional factors in the control software for x-y-z. We measured the angles with a dial indicator setup.

All support from Smithy was always great and quick and we never got a single bad word from them. All replacements were sent immediately.

Bottom line: "you get what you pay for". If you want a juicy CNC machine for 7-12k you have to assume that there will be adjustments and adaptions necessary from your end and you should feel comfortable about doing them. If I read the Tormach thread correctly, it is the same story with their machines. If you want a plug and play machine you might be better off buying a Haas Mini Mill for 30k or a used VF-1 for 20k.

Benji2505

The Tormach is 100% assembled in China.

I agree that often you only get what you pay for, although many ebayers would not agree with that philosophy. However I do think that sometimes you don't get what you paid for.

Phil:)

I like the Tormach approach better to buy components in China and assemble them in the US

I think Tormach has the right idea by getting the assembled unit from one supplier even if it is China. According to their website, they then spend a day testing and adjusting before delivery. Smithy's approach of getting the machine from China and the drives from Korea and building the CNC in USA is probably a design protection strategy, so that none of their suppliers knows the entire machine. However the potential for delivery delays, quality control issues and finger pointing goes up exponentially as the number of suppliers increases.

I might be wrong but I don't think your Tormach sees USA daylight until the day you open the box. Why pay USA labor rates to check and adjust a machine when you can pay Chinese labor rates for the same job. That's how they keep the price down.

There is no doubt the Chinese can build quality equipment providing you pay that bit extra. If you are only prepared to pay a crap price then you know what you are going to get.

Phil

According to their website, they then spend a day testing and adjusting before delivery.

To my mind that is the critical issue. If you are selling a Product in the US or Western Europe you have to make sure to have a consitent standard of quality. I amsure the Chinese can mill and assemble, but I have my doubts about their ability to deliver precision. Go to WalMart and take a close look at the products: The quality delivered works for a lot of products, but it does not work for a CNC Mill, at least not before you brought it up to your standards.

benji

Yes but Wallmart tells the Chinese to make it cheap, cheap, cheap and then some. So they/you pay crap prices and the Chinese quite happily deliver you the crap as specified. An american supplier would do the same except he can't produce the crap as cheaply as the Chinese.

Phil

Go to WalMart and take a close look at the products: The quality delivered works for a lot of products, but it does not work for a CNC Mill, at least not before you brought it up to your standards.

benji

The website makes it seem as they do the test and setup here, but it might be done in China. It would be wise to spend 8-16 hours on each machine here rather than getting one returned or spending an equal amount of time on the phone trying to help a frustrated customer. After all, if you pay a qualified guy 25.00 per hour, the added cost would be only 2-400.00 on a 7000.00 machine. I'm sure these are a fairly low volume products, maybe 10 units per month, so the ex factory cost would have to be about 1/2 of retail in order to sustain the business.

$400 would be more than 10% of your margin!!! The manufacturer has his own procedures for checking and adjusting (see the test certificate) why not make sure he does it correctly rather than repeating, at your cost, what the manufacturer should have already done and for which you have already paid.

Phil

The website makes it seem as they do the test and setup here, but it might be done in China. It would be wise to spend 8-16 hours on each machine here rather than getting one returned or spending an equal amount of time on the phone trying to help a frustrated customer. After all, if you pay a qualified guy 25.00 per hour, the added cost would be only 2-400.00 on a 7000.00 machine. I'm sure these are a fairly low volume products, maybe 10 units per month, so the ex factory cost would have to be about 1/2 of retail in order to sustain the business.

The reason is that you must have someone directly responsible for these important final inspections. A lot of companies tout their "on site quality control" personell. The reality is that these are local English speaking Chinese guys getting paid in local wages who usually do a variety of jobs, mostly acting as translators and visually inspecting the goods before packing and shipment. This is ok for non technical items, but for a CNC machine tool the inspection should be done in USA by a person who reports every day to the boss. Earlier in this discussion there was a comment from a guy who bought a Smithy machine and returned it due to head misalignment problems. Now, instead of paying someone to test and adjust it before shipment, Smithy will probably end up eating the freight charges, pay someone to test and adjust it anyway when it comes back and then sell it at a deep discount because it is no longer a "new" machine. Not to mention that there will now be a guy out there telling people that he bought a Smithy and had to return it due to poor quality.
Bottom line, if anyone is going to be in the business of selling professional grade CNC equipment, they need to have hands on quality control.

You clearly have personal experience of these matters. When was the last time you audited the Tormach quality system? You seem to have a very narrow view of what the Chinese manufacturing industry is capable of. To under-estimate your competitor can be fatal.

Phil:)


The reality is that these are local English speaking Chinese guys getting paid in local wages who usually do a variety of jobs, mostly acting as translators and visually inspecting the goods before packing and shipment. This is ok for non technical items, but for a CNC machine tool the inspection should be done in USA by a person who reports every day to the boss.

Philbur,
Please don't mis read my comments. If you go back through the posts you will see that I am a potential customer for a larger CNC mill, and had actually settled on the Tormach as the best choice. I have lived long enough to have some experience in general business practices, and my comments about the on site quality control was strictly my own opinion about how it should be done. I have no intimate knowledge of Tormach's system. For all I know, they could have an American engineer living in China. Only they could answer those questions in detail.
Comparing Smithy and Tormach, you will see that both companies list a bunch of PhD engineers as part of their " staff ". I take this all with a grain of salt, as its highly unlikely that either company could afford to have these guys on full time salary. Most likely they are local college professor types who allow their names to be used in exchange for some stipend. Smithy is a long established company with a reputation for marketing off the shelf Chinese machines and then jazzing them up with various brand names and pushing customer service as their advantage. A quick Google search turns up these websites www.linyijinxing.com or www.cmic.hf.ah.cn showing pretty much their entire range and the Tormach machine as well. My instinct is that Tormach is a small company with maybe 1 or 2 core CNC machinery guys who see a niche market and are breaking in by offering good value and service for the money. Their list of PhD's is probably just a response to Smithy's.

"A quick Google search turns up these websites www.linyijinxing.com or www.cmic.hf.ah.cn showing pretty much their entire range and the Tormach machine as well. "

YIKES! links look very interesting but don't work for me.

Me neither. The cmic site doesn't open and the linyijinxing site doesn't appear to have anything on SmithyCNC or Tormach, it seems totally unrelated.

Phil:)

"A quick Google search turns up these websites www.linyijinxing.com or www.cmic.hf.ah.cn showing pretty much their entire range and the Tormach machine as well. "

YIKES! links look very interesting but don't work for me.

fastlane,

Seems like you are pretty loose with the assumptions as to how Tormach runs their business. If it concerns you that much why not call and ask? I've found them to be pretty honest both in terms of benefits and disadvantages on their products.

FWIW, the QA checks I ran when my mill was delivered over a year ago were pretty much spot on compared to the certification sheet that came with it. The major exceptions had to do with the tram and that was related to the way the deluxe stand was fabricated at the time I bought mine and is no longer an issue.

Mike

I would love to hear from nupeswv and his experiences with the smithy machine. If we compare the early Smithy experiences with the latest ones we could see whether the quality assurance and inspection system works by now and .... how quickly they really learn.

Benji2505

I followed one of the ads on top of the forum home page. Interesting machines that look very familiar. Seems to me that Smithy did not make sure they have exclusivity from their Chinese suppliers:

http://www.atron.com.tw/uwish/front/bin/home.phtml


Did anyone check the price there?

Benji2505

In this day of internet marketing, its very difficult to get an exclusive from a Chinese factory for any off the shelf design. The Chinese are very sophisticated and know the market price of their products, and would require a huge commitment from anyone wanting the exclusive rights. This Taiwan company most likely takes orders for the machines and passes them on to the factory through a Hong Kong middleman due to the political tensions between the 2 Chinas. keep in mind that a website like this can be set up in a day from someone's apartment. Without a personal visit to their facilities, I would take them with a grain of salt.

Yes, but as we learned below there are not a lot of things happening between China and the End customer.

Apart from possibly an increase in the price.:)

Phil

Yes, but as we learned below there are not a lot of things happening between China and the End customer.

They will probably give you a quote for a container load, FOB. I doubt you will get a quote for an individual unit.

Phil

I followed one of the ads on top of the forum home page. Interesting machines that look very familiar. Seems to me that Smithy did not make sure they have exclusivity from their Chinese suppliers:

http://www.atron.com.tw/uwish/front/bin/home.phtml


Did anyone check the price there?

Benji2505

They will probably give you a quote for a container load, FOB. I doubt you will get a quote for an individual unit.

Phil

check Ebay for HOW-MAU $1000-$1200 USD cheaper for both their equivalent of the Smithy CNC's

Not after you add their USD 999 for shipping to the dockside USA + any import duty. Then it's the same price and you are left with no local support to call on.

It's also potentially a big mess if you are not happy with what you receive.

Phil

check Ebay for HOW-MAU $1000-$1200 USD cheaper for both their equivalent of the Smithy CNC's

I'm looking into buying a KX3 (622cnc equivilant) from Novakon right now, $4995 with 4 axis controller, stand, mach3, and bobcad/cam. $500 more and they install a computer (dual core, 1gb ram, 512mb video card, WIN XP) in the drive box and include a 19" flat screen, mouse and keyboard. Shipping would be around $500. Looks like the 1240 equivilant from them is $8995 with the same standard equipment. They are using Gecko 203 drivers and the c1g BOB from CNC4pc. So after looking at LMS for some Tormach quick change tooling, an MPG pendant, cutters, and a vise I am still below the Smithy price.

If I had a few thousand more and the space I would have gotten a Tormach and I would have still possibly considered them if their mill was still $6895 but even that price would have left me with no budget for a computer, tooling or a stand.