...in many ways we should also be more outraged about what we are doing to our fellow man. We sit back and allow our governments to torture people, invade other countries etc. We need to protest more. We need to write more letters to our politicians. The current Australian and American governments are a disgrace to humanity. I dont believe thier lies and propaganda. If the reason for invading Iraq was for humanity reasons, then why dont we also invade Zimbabwe and other such countries. The truth is its about oil, and we sit back and do nothing about the attorcities our goverments commit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Xd0Q2Auz4

...in many ways we should also be more outraged about what we are doing to our fellow man. We sit back and allow our governments to torture people, invade other countries etc. We need to protest more. We need to write more letters to our politicians. The current Australian and American governments are a disgrace to humanity. I dont believe thier lies and propaganda. If the reason for invading Iraq was for humanity reasons, then why dont we also invade Zimbabwe and other such countries. The truth is its about oil, and we sit back and do nothing about the attrcities our goverments commit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Xd0Q2Auz4

I could not agree more. A case in point,

Capture someone, keep them in a secret CIA prison for 3 years and guess what, they confess they masterminded every major terrorist act in the last decade.

Oh, did I mention he confessed without cohersion. What idiot would behieve that!

He probably also confessed to be the mastermind behind the JFK assassination.


Whether he is the mastermind or not, the confession has not and cannot have any credibility. We cannot treat people like this.



Peter.

Whether he is the mastermind or not, the confession has not and cannot have any credibility. We cannot treat people like this.Nor can we lock them up indefinitely for years without a trial, just because we suspect they may be guilty.
I have written to our "dessicated coconut" on many occasions only to receive standard pre judging comments that "these people are terrorists". How do we know, if we don't send them to trial ?

George Bush and John Howard, have bought untold shame on both of our countries.

Are we talking about global warming here, or are we just bush bashing?

It's sad how America is seen as the problem here. Radical Islam has been doing this crap for centuries, and only now have the resources to do it on a very large and very noticeable scale, yet somehow it's all bush's fault for wanting to protect Western Civilization from a clear and un-denied (by the Radical Islamics) attempt to destroy anything and everything that is not Islam.

I don't think sawing off heads on TV, dragging dead, mutilated bodies through the streets, training children to hate and kill and commit suicide, or killing women and children in the name of God are the kinds of values we should allow to continue.

BTW, you've been watching too much 24. "Torture" in the eyes of the US is water-boarding, loud music and being forced to shave your beard. Damn ruthless Americans!

"I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan," he said. "For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Internet holding his head."

All this thread is going to do is start fights, so I would suggest it stops now before it gets out of hand.

POW's don't get trials. Nor do they get released until the war is over, which in this case may be never.

POW's don't get trials. Nor do they get released until the war is over, which in this case may be never.

This guy will never be released, they said that last night. He will be a viable threat to (civilized) humanity until he dies, and likely afterwards. He openly and happily admitted what he did. Experts say he's trying to martyr himself, make himself comparable with OBL, and say he's probably responsible for 80% of what he claims.

He was bragging about what he did when he was first captured years ago. He's only trying to play our system, like they always do by saying he was tortured, and they always succeed because we're too PC and too nice and too damn worried what the rest of the world will think of us.

It's pathetic. The US is at war, we need to start acting like it or we will end up with another Viet Nam, and we will end up losing. We can't afford to lose this war. We can't afford to let a nut job like the leader of Iran take control of Iraq, which is exactly what he's trying to do. He openly admits he wants to destroy Israel, the US and all of Western Civilization (and he needs Iraq to do it), yet people continually blame bush. Pathetic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/FukNRekd/owned/withoutzionism.jpg

Even OBL openly claimed the terrorists need Iraq to succeed. Doesn't anybody pay attention to what the enemy says?

POW's don't get trials. Nor do they get released until the war is over, which in this case may be never.

That may be true but the Geneva Convention applies to POWs. As far as I understand it is not being applied to the current group of detainees.

As far as I understand it is not being applied to the current group of detainees.

How so?

And don't forget this clause...

POW status also applies to captured members of irregular forces who are under responsible command; have a fixed distinctive sign (such as an insignia, uniform or other marking) recognizable at a distance; carry arms openly; and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

I don't think wearing a burka or murder apply.

I do not understand the 'How so?' question. The post I responded to was equating the (alleged) terrorist detainees to POWs. It is my understanding they do not have this status and therefore the strictures of the Geneva Convention do not apply.

I fail to understand the logic that would allow me to say because someone else behaves in a barbaric manner it is okay for me to behave in a barbaric manner; which is the logic that seems to be applied in the case of these detainees. I can think of three reasons for treating people, no matter what their alleged or real status, in a decent and humane manner; one is because it is the correct thing to do, another is because it degrades the one doling out the treatment and it is pointless. During the Korean and Vietnamese wars by all accounts captured US personnel were subjected to treatment that ranged from the equivalent of water boarding and sleep deprivation to much worse. Did anyone believe the confessions of the ones subjected to this did anyone think better of the perpetrators of the wrong treatment. The US and other countries are involved in a war on terror but this does not excuse emulating the behaviour of the other side even to the smallest degree. This, unfortunately, is the conundrum a humane society faces when confronted by terrorist acts; if you lower yourself to the level of your opponents you have lost the cause. I agree that probably many of the detainees cannot sensibly be released because they do pose a threat. Some of them probably pose more of a threat now as result of their treatment. Why is it not possible to simply confine them in a humane and diginified manner? It is questionable whether much information of value has been obtained by the treatment some have been subjected to. It is certain that the image of the US has suffered and some people who may have dithered have been pushed in the direction of extremism.

I'm trying to figure out how/why you think the US is treating the terrorists barbarically. If you for one second believe the US is treating the terrorists the same way the terrorists are treating everyone else (who is not Islamic), then you're misguided. Sure, there may be a few exceptions, but those are treated with harsh punishment when they're found out.

Do me a favor, give me ONE example of how the US is acting barbaric like the terrorists are. Just one. (And not an example of a single soldier murdering someone, then getting 100 years in prison for it, which is how we are dealing with those individuals.)

Show me where the US has dragged a body through the streets, cut off a head, hidden behind women and children, hidden in schools, dressed as women to gain an advantage in an attack, attacked women and children on purpose repeatedly, etc etc etc.

Do you honestly believe the US is as barbaric as these terrorists? Do you honestly think we're "stooping to their level" ?? Then show me, because aside from the baseless rhetoric I've heard from the bush-bashers, we're not.

Also, that guy bragged about what he had done before being water-boarded.

i always liked benny.

...in many ways we should also be more outraged about what we are doing to our fellow man. We sit back and allow our governments to torture people, invade other countries etc. We need to protest more. We need to write more letters to our politicians. The current Australian and American governments are a disgrace to humanity. I dont believe thier lies and propaganda. If the reason for invading Iraq was for humanity reasons, then why dont we also invade Zimbabwe and other such countries. The truth is its about oil, and we sit back and do nothing about the attorcities our goverments commit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Xd0Q2Auz4

dude.. dont you know anything about our government?

we live under a consitantly mean natured set of 'rulers'... cases in point:

-Iran Contra
-the entire 2nd iraq war
-Vietnam
-Watergate type crud
-the first Bush election
-how long it took us to get into WW2
-HOLDING ANYONE WITHOUT CHARGES!
-constant funding of guerilla groups that may help us make $ in small countries
-refusal to sign non proliferation treaty
-total undoing of UN and geneva convention work
-refusal to sign into international courts
-massive tax exemption for huge well-off companies that need no tax breaks
-refusal to court marshal higher officers, but total willingness to blame systematic torture on barely post-teens from the middle of america!!! this IS evil. if you do not see this as evil, you probably have horns and a bifrucated tounge.
-that whole thing where we like to fake terrorist attacks to use as an excuse to goto war for profit. (not saying it is the case in any specific instance, just that the US Govt. has documented their desire and ability to do so)
- The list goes on, dude.

man. people seem to think that if they ally themselves with the horrific brute that is the US govt, they can somehow gain some profits..

sadly, it is probably true.

I'm trying to figure out how/why you think the US is treating the terrorists barbarically. If you for one second believe the US is treating the terrorists the same way the terrorists are treating everyone else (who is not Islamic), then you're misguided. Sure, there may be a few exceptions, but those are treated with harsh punishment when they're found out.

Do me a favor, give me ONE example of how the US is acting barbaric like the terrorists are. Just one. (And not an example of a single soldier murdering someone, then getting 100 years in prison for it, which is how we are dealing with those individuals.)

Show me where the US has dragged a body through the streets, cut off a head, hidden behind women and children, hidden in schools, dressed as women to gain an advantage in an attack, attacked women and children on purpose repeatedly, etc etc etc.

Do you honestly believe the US is as barbaric as these terrorists? Do you honestly think we're "stooping to their level" ?? Then show me, because aside from the baseless rhetoric I've heard from the bush-bashers, we're not.

Also, that guy bragged about what he had done before being water-boarded.

Rekd you are not reading carefully enough. I did not say the US was emulating on a one-for-one basis the behaviour of some of the extremists. I said that the logic being applied to explain or excuse activities such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation or other treatment that is not dignified or humane is that it is okay because the other guys are worse. You come close to saying that explicitly. If you set your standard of comparison low enough you can always claim the high ground. I simply believe that some of the documented and admitted activities of US, British and, yes, Canadian governments and armed forces personnel are not up to the standard that should prevail in a civilised society.

Rekd you are not reading carefully enough. I did not say the US was emulating on a one-for-one basis the behaviour of some of the extremists. I said that the logic being applied to explain or excuse activities such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation or other treatment that is not dignified or humane is that it is okay because the other guys are worse. You come close to saying that explicitly. If you set your standard of comparison low enough you can always claim the high ground. I simply believe that some of the documented and admitted activities of US, British and, yes, Canadian governments and armed forces personnel are not up to the standard that should prevail in a civilised society.

I guess when you claimed

if you lower yourself to the level of your opponents you have lost the cause.

I figured you thought we had done that, when very clearly we have not. I agree we have not been saints, but we have done much more than most others to protect innocent life. Even to protect the 'not so innocent' lives of those we fight against.

Again, it's sad how America is seen as the problem here.

POW, enemy combatant, whatever you want to call them. The ones that are still at gitmo will probably never be released and don't fall under the geneva convention.

Are we talking about global warming here, or are we just bush bashing?
I guess what I am trying to say is, since we feel it is important to introduce a global warming forum into a CNC forum, because we think it is important, there are also other important issues too.
No Matt, not Bush bashing, but accountability yes. Please NEVER make the mistake that questioning the government of the day is the same as blaming the people of America / Australia. You seemed to introduce the concept of people blaming America. Most Americans if given the choice would not follow the path they are now taking, if it wasn't for the government of the day.

I hate terrorism as much as you, trust me, I entertain wicked ideas of what I would like to do to them if I ever met one. BUT..... there is a right way and a wrong way for us to go about our bussiness, and even though it may seem justifiable, torture and country invading are not the ways. The problem with these methods are lots of innocent victims are harmed in the process.

I am very cynical of the motivation of our governments. If they were genuinely concerned about freeing Iraq's people, they would be as equally concerned about fighting for the rights of oppressed people in other countries too. I don't believe the torture and invasion is about fighting against terrorism.

Deleted

Mariss

i always liked benny.

You no longer like somebody because they have a different view to you? I guess this just about sums up the problem.

A lack of tolerance (and probably understanding) for others that share the planet.

It's not a new problem. It just seems to be getting worse. :(


Cheers,

Peter.

dude.. dont you know anything about our government?

we live under a consitantly mean natured set of 'rulers'... cases in point:

-Iran Contra
-the entire 2nd iraq war
-Vietnam
-Watergate type crud
-the first Bush election
-how long it took us to get into WW2
-HOLDING ANYONE WITHOUT CHARGES!
-constant funding of guerilla groups that may help us make $ in small countries
-refusal to sign non proliferation treaty
-total undoing of UN and geneva convention work
-refusal to sign into international courts
-massive tax exemption for huge well-off companies that need no tax breaks
-refusal to court marshal higher officers, but total willingness to blame systematic torture on barely post-teens from the middle of america!!! this IS evil. if you do not see this as evil, you probably have horns and a bifrucated tounge.
-that whole thing where we like to fake terrorist attacks to use as an excuse to goto war for profit. (not saying it is the case in any specific instance, just that the US Govt. has documented their desire and ability to do so)
- The list goes on, dude.

man. people seem to think that if they ally themselves with the horrific brute that is the US govt, they can somehow gain some profits..

sadly, it is probably true.

Robert I need some clarification on the highlighted paragraph? Please splain that to me!

Now for the sentence highlighted in red! I will give my life and blood before I will ever submit to international law!

Mike

Robert I need some clarification on the highlighted paragraph? Please splain that to me!

Mike

He is obviously just ranting without anything substantial to back him up, nor any validity to the current problem.

I could go through his post line by line and debunk or defuse almost all of it as it does not relate to our current problem, but it's not worth the time. Any effort to explain any of those situations to him would simply be a waste of bandwidth, so I ignored it. :)

No Matt, not Bush bashing

Oh, really?

George Bush and John Howard, have bought untold shame on both of our countries.

There is more shame when you feel your own country (and mine) and especially the current leaders trying to defend them are to blame for a problem that has existed for thousands of years.

Oh, really?



There is more shame when you feel your own country (and mine) and especially the current leaders trying to defend them are to blame for a problem that has existed for thousands of years.

Thousands of years, benny, thousands of years.

Thousands of years, benny, thousands of years.

Actually no not thousands.

The current terrorists are happy with the state of affairs that existed about a thousand years ago when their ancestors had successfully invaded a whole bunch of places. They are upset about what happened during the past 300 to 800 years when they were booted out of these places.

Anyone see 300 yet, you Rekd? VERY errie parallels to our current situation with our own inner politics and attempt at preservation of culture.

I really like how foreigners put down the US on a daily rant, or tell us to submit to international law.

Just be sure to drop off a "Thank You Card" to my uncles who made sure your not speaking German...while your at it...maybe even a card for my cousins too who will try and make sure your not forced to read the Koran anytime soon.

I'm just disappointed in our Presidents lack of aggressive leadership with Syria and Iran. Those countries should be potholes :)

Thousands of years, benny, thousands of years.

One of my coworkers was talking to an afghan student here just after the russians left his country. He asked the student what was going to happen, "..now that you've kicked the russians out?" The response was pretty revealing in terms of the culture in the middle east as a whole. He said "We'll go back to what we were doing before they came. Fighting amongst ourselves."

The tribal clashes have gone on for thousands of years, yes, but the Great Satan US has only been around for a little over a couple of centuries. For being the new kids on the block, we've managed to endear ourselves to them pretty well. We're amongst their biggest customers, and biggest enemies.

Bernard Lewis' book What Went Wrong?: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East does a very good job of giving insight as to why the middle east began to lag behind the 'west' technologically, and why we are it's enemies. Sure, a lot of people who read it criticize Lewis for innacuracy, racism, failing to answer his own question....but for me it was very consistent with the personalities I've dealt with first hand in the here and now.

Bashing Bush and the GOP isn't going to change anything in the minds of middle easterners, any more than electing Hillary is. They're going to hate us. If we withdrew totally from all middle eastern countries, they'd hate us. They don't even like themselves, and the suicide bombing of innocent children in their own countries is proof.

To everyone who claims that this whole Iraq thing is about Big Oil (which it is) and we shouldn't be doing it, then quit driving your cars, using foreign based 'fossil fuel' energy, and quit doing anything that gives any middle eastern country a profit. Set them free, make them independent, and DO YOUR PART! Quit being a hypocrite.

I think we should use up all the foreign oil as fast as we can till it is all gone. Then, the middle east can go back to living on goat meat and dates, we can leave, take out of their countries everything that isn't bronze, and let them go back to bashing each other over the head. No oil, no problem.

Disclaimer #1: The power to run my CNCs comes directly from US mined coal fired energy. The power to build my one of my CNCs came from a combination of natural gas-fired, hydroelectric, coal, and nuclear (pronounced 'knu-kya-ler') from S. Kalifornia. God (and Unocal) only knows where the gas for my car originates from.

I really like how foreigners put down the US on a daily rant, or tell us to submit to international law.

Just be sure to drop off a "Thank You Card" to my uncles who made sure your not speaking German:)

that was a WORLD WAR look at the history books , and see what ALL the allied forces did , many brave men died to to preserve our freedom , many of my family fought and died or fought and survived ,
show some respect to what is beyond your blinders

as for terrorists their throats should be cut on the spot

that was a WORLD WAR look at the history books , and see what ALL the allied forces did , many brave men died to to preserve our freedom , many of my family fought and died or fought and survived ,
show some respect to what is beyond your blinders

as for terrorists their throats should be cut on the spot

Your taking me out of context. I respect those that lost/risked their lives US or allied. I'm talking about the US bashers, foreign and domestic.

But other contries need to take off their blinders. Australia, UK, Canada, France, Spain, Europe. Their going to get breeded out my muslim immigrants, who will in turn birth islamofascistism.

France is lost as far as I'm concerned, Oz / France has already had their riots between locals and muslims in the streets. They will breed them out slowly

do you understand muslims account for 2/3 of the world (religious)population
the radicals are not even a mere fraction of that population there are many decent hard working muslims living all over the world including the US
the issue is how as a world full of people how do we live and accept one another , if we catagorize all muslems as terrorists , as time goes by watch the s@%t fly

do you understand muslims account for 2/3 of the world (religious)population
the radicals are not even a mere fraction of that population there are many decent hard working muslims living all over the world including the US
the issue is how as a world full of people how do we live and accept one another , if we catagorize all muslems as terrorists , as time goes by watch the s@%t fly

No, but they reamin bystanders and let themselves get rolled over.

Sort of like how German peeps let Nazi's run everything. Islam = Submit.

Show me a free Islamic Nation, their religion dictates their lives. Islam (Middle East culture) and Christianity (The West) will never mesh.

I have yet to see an Islami leader openly slam the radicals or hold protests defending the the oppression of our culture

I won't go so far as to categorize all muslims as terrorists, but after reading the quran, they are far less tolerant of christians than christians are of them....in fact they're far less tolerant of any religion....

"2:99 Verily We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them."
......literally translated: only evil people don't believe as we do.

..better yet:
"2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers."

Their religion has a clear and unmistakable dictate. Those who don't opt to slay us where they find us, like right here in our own country...you know, the one that allows them to freely practice their chosen religion?....are obviously more pragmatic in their approach. Its a bit tougher to bully when you're not in the majority.

Just stumbled on this really fun website!
http://www.globalincidentmap.com/home.php

Nope, that was not a rant. I recognize that as regurgitating NPR talking points in hopes it emulates superior knowledge of these issues as well informed. Disregarding the core problems of each and ignores the acts of evil that lays claim to intentions with much bigger plans for death and destruction in its path. So it goes. Tie the hands of government to protect and serve, then unleash the likes of the ACLU on anyone attempting to do the job once placed in a life or death situation as an occupational hazard.

On another note:

Strange how some can feel cheated when a company that pays millions of dollars in taxes gets a 10% relief of the burden. In their mind, that is a subsidizing big business. At the same time wishing their business(which isn't very profitable on its own) was subsidized by a government which they despise. They've had the best mind numbing training public funds can buy........after all, it is following the NPR business model. Not to mention passing on the Blame America first psychobabble of Nazi Propaganda Radio as a relevant source. NPR would be proud!

It makes one think their jealousy, envy and desires are emotions they expect to be satisfied by the government at all costs. Even if it means using emotion to enact their ideals over what is fair and poignantly beneficial to them while taking advantage of someone else. Hmmmm, isn't this the very same thing they deride the USA for? So many times, I see a common thread of their complaints they argue against, ends up being something similar they wish to do or control in a different breath.

It's the tale that wags the dog, ain't it? Or would that be TAIL? depends on who tells the story don't it?

DC

Great, now I understand why its right to torture people and invade their countries, even if 99% of them have nothing to do with the problem.
That is what my initial post is about.

It's terrible isn't it?

Just think of all those in the world trade center that day. They all died and never once probably gave a thought about Islam or their politics or ideology.

Great, now I understand why its right to torture people and invade their countries, even if 99% of them have nothing to do with the problem.
That is what my initial post is about.

That's just psychobabble. Why don't you just add rape and pillage to the list of crimes? What a load of crap!

At least our countries have leaders with balls, even if some of the citizens dont.

God help the world if Al gore had stolen the election.

Now I understand why two wrongs make a right. I'm learning heaps.

All will cometh in time.

See, it's better to get rid of thousands upon thousands over there so there is no risk of killing another 3k of our citizens over here. http://www.thesignindustry.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/thumbs.gif

Criticizing your government or your leaders is not unAmerican or anti-patriotic. It's good practice as a CITIZEN. If the elected officials do not act in the interests of those they serve, then they are in office illegally, committing illegal acts. That simple. Please tell me how my brothers in arms dying in Iraq is helping democracy or freedom in America? Does anyone think for a second that a dictator like Saddam is going to tolerate or allow organized criminals (terrorists) to live and train in his country when they could undermine him? I find that hard to believe when he had absolutely no problem gassing and bombing hundreds of thousands of his own countrymen. Obviously Saddam was Muslim, but he was not a "true" muslim by their definition.

As to drawing parallels to the movie 300...when George W. Bush leads the charge on an attack, I will give him two big thumbs up and lay my life down for him. Also, Greece didn't attack Persia. Leonidas didn't exit Greece to meet Xerxes on his territory, he made a stand in his own country. Please don't make Georgie out to be noble. My dog has traits that man will never learn, and is probably smarter. As long as he continues to sacrifice my friends and family like meat to the grinder I will continue to criticize his every move and effort. A retard who managed to win a national election that hinged on "hanging chads" in the state where his OWN brother was the governor was all the redflag I needed to realize we are in deep ****. The honorable thing to do would have been to concede defeat due to ethics regarding the situation. I know that Al Gore wouldn't have the balls to retaliate, for that I am glad that Bush was in office. We should have stopped in Afghanistan. That was justified. We had good intel. Iraq is about finishing daddy's f-up. Nothing more. When you can show me some benefit gained for one wounded, maimed or dead soldier, sailor or marine then I will acquiesce. And please don't say cheap gas. I'd rather your car sit on blocks in your front yard than have your gas-swilling SUV wandering about the lanes of traffic as the reward for one-legged marines and soldiers. Cheap gas is not a hallmark of democracy. It is a function of free trade and capitalism.

As a veteran of Bosnia, Haiti, and Somalia I understand what it is like to be under fire and experiencing hell. I know what confusion and chaos war can be. The mistakes and bureaucratic bull**** that costs people their lives and prevents a mission from being completed. Finish this war? For what? Every service person swears to uphold the constitution first and foremost, then the lawful commands of his superiors. Nowhere in our Constitution does it say we are in the business of "nation-building" and exporting democracy. We should withdraw immediately and let Iraq implode.

When the power vaccuum starts pulling Syria and Iran in, we backdoor them and cut off their supply routes and start mowing them down as they retreat to their respective countries. There is no defense in them leaving their country to take advantage of such a situation. That would be a morally and legally justifiable position for us as a nation and power. We would also have managed to eliminate millions of Islamo-fascists, with very little of our weapons and manpower. Abandon them and let them cut eachothers heads off. When they step foot out of their own country, cut them down. Manage them as separate herds of sheep, instead of as lone coyotes. We should be isolating them as nations and allowing them all the exporting of crude oil the system will tolerate. We don't need them for any other purpose. If they decide to get wily and stop selling to us, we prevent them from selling to anybody else. If the world wants to complain we sever the infrastructure from inside the exporting nations. The only way it will be rebuilt is if we allow it. We turn the violent nature of the islamo-nazis on themselves. No flights in or out. No importing. We cut them off globally. Only when we dedicate ourselves whole-heartedly to ending "violent Islam" will I support the war on terror. I'm tired of half-assing things. We don't need to stoop to their level. We simply change the rules of engagement. No more man-for-man. We act as a monolithic force, impenetrable and immovable. We stop all conduct that goes against the welfare of the world. Plain and simple.

Ah, yes and kind hearted lads are they, that we have put under interrogation pressures that some call torture. What would you do, given the task of gaining information to protect 99% OF THE WORLD that would prefer to live in peace, free from oppressive religions and ruthless tyrants? Then what would you do when 33% didn't like how you got the information even though it saved more than it hurt? You'd think they were fricken ingrates, but carry on for the other 66% that do appreciate the security measures.

If that is not a system you would prefer not to live under. Why would you not want to grant the same gift you have been given by the unfortunate price of someone else's blood? Was that blood wasted on you or me?

This region is far to important to leave to the wolves that teach more hatred that threatens to deliver death to anyone they see as an infidel. They prove that time after time with mass murder of their own in grocery markets and school yards. It is not that we do not want to help in all areas this crap is going on. That is a direct result of military budget cuts that leave us far too short of boots on the ground to handle it more efficiently. If the UN had any human compassion instead of arrogance, they would also step up as a United front against the actions of terrorist supporters. Instead they turn a blind eye to it as status is more important than responsibility to world order. They just want to make sure the US keeps funding the sorority party, but have little else to offer.

Pitching conspiracy theories and presumptions of sinister motives and dirty laundry on our side is no more proven intentional than a hot day proves Global Warming. The media puts it out there as bait and some are predisposed to buying into it. Like minds sing and their choir carries their echoes.

It took real men to perceive WWII for what it was. We might just need more men like that in the near future.

DC

I wasn't arguing for or against the war on terror and keeping the peace. Just the excuses and half-ass tactics used to employ it. I for one have served and would serve again if it makes a difference. As Patton said, "Why die for your country when you can make the sons-of-*****es die for theirs?" I understand the sacrifice the armed forces make. I appreciate it every single day I draw breath as I know freedom isn't free. I just want more for my "blood money" than cheap gas and a "warm fuzzy" for combating terrorism. If my brothers-in-arms must die, make the enemy suffer for every death caused. When every Islamic extremist capable of making babies is dead, the problem will cease. Until that day, we are fighting a war that cannot be won. Hard line tactics in a hard line scenario. It's not getting any softer, we are. We don't have to torture or rape and pillage. We just need to kill, kill, kill until there aren't any more extremist "volunteers" to kill. When we turn the arid desert into fertile ground from the millions of corpses and gallons of blood they shed, we will have stopped the export of their brand of terror. If that also means killing the women and children of the "old guard" then so be it. A 12 year old boy with an AK47 is just as lethal as a 21 year old man. As long as they have the means to propogate their brand of evil, they will.

Technically, I wasn't responding to your post WYLD.

I do sincerely wish were were not put into the postion of need to kill anyone. And I agree it has not been handled very well in many respects, but i am no armchair general either.

I can understand our reserved action in order to gain the trust of the majority of the population. However, limitations in action do prolong the stay. Meanwhile we have beaurocrats at home playing political games that do more harm than good.

DC

All will cometh in time.

See, it's better to get rid of thousands upon thousands over there so there is no risk of killing another 3k of our citizens over here. http://www.thesignindustry.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/thumbs.gif

And I though that the 3000+ Afgan POWs who died, many in overcrowded shipping containers at a POW camp shortly after the invasion would have been enough.


Obviousy it was not. :confused:


Peter.

And I though that the 3000+ Afgan POWs who died, many in overcrowded shipping containers at a POW camp shortly after the invasion would have been enough.


Obviousy it was not. :confused:


Peter.

In case your unaware. http://www.democracynow.org/afghanfilm.shtml

Peter.

Really, I could care less about this post, & think this cat. Should be Removed from www.cnczone.com.

I come here to talk (cnc) shop, Not listen to the same crap that is already on TV!


.

Three topics to avoid, SEX, POLITICS and RELIGION in every situations. Well, maybe the first one we can give an exception.

So, with the situation on global warming that we are in, religion won't count for S#*T if we don't try to stop it. Ask the Pope or the Imam to save us from the heat wave or ice age thats going to happen. You believe they would?

But then again, at the rate at which religion is creating such a rift between man, (of course with the help of some terrorists) I think it will kill us all off faster than an ice age or a heat wave would.

I just have one thing to say though. I am glad I am not a part of the religions that have been in the news and have any association with terrorism.

How do I explain to my children that religions that have supposedly one ultimate being that controls all in this world can create such a havoc and suffering. I really wouldn't know how to.

Please keep this discussion civil PLEASE! If not the offending partie(s) will be BANNED, I will become the Donald Trump of CNCzone, with the hand pump as I ban you. :)

This is the tail end of an article titled
Roots and Nature of Terrorism Against Civilization

The aim of the terrorists in Iraq is to prevent the democratic transformation of society. The objective of the neighboring Arab governments, with the notable exception of Iran, is to protect their countries from possible negative consequences of the developments in Iraq. Iran alone is interested in prolonging the American military presence. Seemingly, this policy contradicts the Iranian leadership’s utter rejection of a secular and democratic Iraq. However, from Iranian perspective, it serves the country’s interests. Thus, Iran pursues a three-pronged foreign policy. It supports terrorism inside Iraq. It also attempts to control the Iraqi Shi’its politically and financially. Finally, Iran maintains pressure on Iraq’s neighbors through other terrorist organizations outside Iraq.

And herein lies an opportunity for American diplomacy. All affected Arab countries are interested in peace and stability in the region. Iran’s actions indicate that its policy is detrimental to both. Moreover, Iran’s military buildup, especially its aggressive pursuit of nuclear weapons, is a threat to their existence. Syria is humiliated and isolated. The reaction of the Lebanese people to the murder of Rafiq Hariri was a total shock to the generals and old guard politicians in Damascus. They see democracy gaining the upper hand in Lebanon and Iraq. They don’t like these developments. Internationally, they feel isolated. Domestically, they are concerned about their future. Cracks within the unified elite are inevitable. Like Libya before, Syria is ready to abandon its long standing anti-Americanism and join the West.

Again, Islam is not the enemy. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not the enemy. Arab governments are not the enemy. The real enemies of civilization are those terrorists who represent the worst of European thinking, Socialism and Fascism, and their embittered soul-mates in the West.

The protection of Western civilization should be our most important objective. The war will continue, soldiers and diplomats will have full employment. Yet the division over Iraq must not result in a festering split between the United States and Europe. The terrorists of the twenty first century and the governments in the Middle East and South East Asia do not really have much in common. The latter know that they must modernize and reform. The terrorists’ goal to eliminate the West does not leave room for any meaningful compromise with the Muslim majority. Theoretically, the terrorists could make common cause with the disgruntled Left in the West. But they are no match for the military, economic and moral superiority of the West. At the end, the forces of freedom and democracy will win because they represent a positive future. And terrorists will lose because negativism and nihilism never made people content and happy.



Highlights by me.

I have no problem with any of that Matt.
My problem is the torture of people, and the illegal invasion of countries.
Napoleon once said " There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit. "

People may be suppressed for a while, but unless you change their mindset they will always eventually rise again.

I question the "Spirit of our leaders who say things like this " There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. "
Donald Rumsfeld (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/donaldrums148142.html)
These are the people who have led us into such combat. I believe there are more diplomatic methods that could achive the desired results a lot more eficiently and with less blood shed.

The current methods of force, and torture are not the answer.

Please keep this discussion civil PLEASE! If not the offending partie(s) will be BANNED, I will become the Donald Trump of CNCzone, with the hand pump as I ban you. :)

Hi Paul,

To me this discussion has been a civil one. Can you explain who, and what part of the discussion is offensive? I'm happy for you to do it via PM if you wish.

I really don't understand.

Cheers,

Peter.

Benny,

I find it a bit ironic you cringe at reports of interrogation methods you call torture on terrorist/insurgent/thugs, many of which were actively engaged or connected to plots of mass death. Then you quote one of the most ruthless men of war history that created so much death and destruction in a 17 year span, it is mind boggling. Napoleon didn't need to touture for any information. The policy was anyone left standing was mowed down. There is a fairly good chance you are bound to get all the needles if you destroy the whole farm. Eventually that caught up to him.

He makes Sadam look passive, Hitler look lame and America look like it was tamed by angry feminist mobs.


Makes me wonder how he would handle the current state of world affairs. And if would you still be proud enough to quote him if he did it in his usual style.

Here is another of his quotes.

"There is no place in a fanatic's head where reason can enter."


DC

Not ironic at all. The point is, ( and it was probably not obvious ) is that even a well known leader in war, had to concede that the sword was not as strong as the spirit.

world history ( man) has been dictated and created thru war and violence ,the power rise and fall of nations has been through defeat ,
there has always been and always will be an enemy , its called human nature with the thirst for greed , power , and ego tripping

the freaks at the present time work on fear , the problem is the nations that are fighting them kill them or take them as pow's and treat them well,
for them what fear do they have to worry about , they die and get 50 virgins or the get caught then thrown in jail and forced to eat pizza ,real tough ,
slow painfull deaths may be a thing to fear for them , being dragged to the street and stoned to death by the people they spit on in their own homeland ,may be something to concider .
how do we deal with this and hold our moral beliefs , or do we put our morals aside and fight to win

I wasn't arguing for or against the war on terror and keeping the peace. Just the excuses and half-ass tactics used to employ it. I for one have served and would serve again if it makes a difference. As Patton said, "Why die for your country when you can make the sons-of-*****es die for theirs?" I understand the sacrifice the armed forces make. I appreciate it every single day I draw breath as I know freedom isn't free. I just want more for my "blood money" than cheap gas and a "warm fuzzy" for combating terrorism. If my brothers-in-arms must die, make the enemy suffer for every death caused. When every Islamic extremist capable of making babies is dead, the problem will cease. Until that day, we are fighting a war that cannot be won. Hard line tactics in a hard line scenario. It's not getting any softer, we are. We don't have to torture or rape and pillage. We just need to kill, kill, kill until there aren't any more extremist "volunteers" to kill. When we turn the arid desert into fertile ground from the millions of corpses and gallons of blood they shed, we will have stopped the export of their brand of terror. If that also means killing the women and children of the "old guard" then so be it. A 12 year old boy with an AK47 is just as lethal as a 21 year old man. As long as they have the means to propogate their brand of evil, they will.

That's one of the most disgusting uncivilized cruel statements I have heard "this week"...in fact wait, that might be the second most...given that I came by this video the other day...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17344.htm

Hi Paul,

To me this discussion has been a civil one. Can you explain who, and what part of the discussion is offensive? I'm happy for you to do it via PM if you wish.

I really don't understand.

Cheers,

Peter.


Yes, Peter, if promoting, justifying, and actually encouraging murder in that fancy manner is actually "a civil discussion" for ya, then I have no idea what the heck kinda civilization you are bragging about! ... Pathetic!

Take a look at that video, which does not describe even a fraction of what actually goes on in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, and the list goes on and on...a whole damn long list of cruel scenarios, the heros of which are either the American troops or those sponsored and supported by the American government (as is the case with the Israeli forces)!

And, to all those who actually suggested that killing "those Muslims" is the solution, hey dudes, there are more than 1.6 billion Muslims in this world...so your "billiant" solution of just "kill, kill, kill,...", as somebody stated, WILL NOT WORK...so, you better take a deep breath for a min, put your civilized mask on for another, and think of trying to understand and educate yourself about those people... because trust me, there are a whole damn lot of those around; all over the place...and their number is growing tremendously, particularly in the states...so you will have to live with them, some way or another, and you will have to try to face those stereotypes you have, instead of taking the easy way to do nothing but rant about them.

Oh, and fizzissist, let me add that what I refered to by "educating yourselves about Islam and Muslims" does NOT mean to just google a couple versus of the Quran and paste them, regardless of their original context. If I were to do the same thing with the bible or any narrative-style book, it will be but a joke! So, let's just not even go there!

My problem is the torture of people, and the illegal invasion of countries.

Benny, tell me which country we invaded illegally, and who we tortured. (By torture, I mean physically harming, like cutting off fingers, bamboo shoots, etc, not water-boarding and loud music and sleep deprivation.) You're making a lot of broad, unsubstantiated statements without anything to back it up. We are at war, and the US policy is first and foremost the protection and safety of innocent life. We go out of our way to do that, often to the extent that our own boys are getting shot trying to make sure they're not killing innocents. A friend of mine that's been in Iraq 3 times (and got a Purple Heart from his first tour there) told me there are 7 steps our boys must take before they can engage the enemy.

Now, consider we've been at war for 4 years now. Then look at the casualty rates. Then look at any other war that lasted that long and tell me how the numbers add up. (FYI, as you'll read below, the VAST majority of Iraqi deaths are at the hands of other Muslims, not the American forces)

It's really pathetic that the media does not tell the whole story because they're afraid it will bring down their ratings. It's sad that so many people just go on believing it and passing judgment without knowing the facts.

That's one of the most disgusting uncivilized cruel statements I have heard "this week"...in fact wait, that might be the second most...given that I came by this video the other day...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17344.htm




Yes, Peter, if promoting, justifying, and actually encouraging murder in that fancy manner is actually "a civil discussion" for ya, then I have no idea what the heck kinda civilization you are bragging about! ... Pathetic!

Take a look at that video, which does not describe even a fraction of what actually goes on in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, and the list goes on and on...a whole damn long list of cruel scenarios, the heros of which are either the American troops or those sponsored and supported by the American government (as is the case with the Israeli forces)!

And, to all those who actually suggested that killing "those Muslims" is the solution, hey dudes, there are more than 1.6 billion Muslims in this world...so your "billiant" solution of just "kill, kill, kill,...", as somebody stated, WILL NOT WORK...so, you better take a deep breath for a min, put your civilized mask on for another, and think of trying to understand and educate yourself about those people... because trust me, there are a whole damn lot of those around; all over the place...and their number is growing tremendously, particularly in the states...so you will have to live with them, some way or another, and you will have to try to face those stereotypes you have, instead of taking the easy way to do nothing but rant about them.

Oh, and fizzissist, let me add that what I refered to by "educating yourselves about Islam and Muslims" does NOT mean to just google a couple versus of the Quran and paste them, regardless of their original context. If I were to do the same thing with the bible or any narrative-style book, it will be but a joke! So, let's just not even go there!

Another outburst like that will likely result in a ban. (Yes, I will ban you before I let your rude comments and personal attacks get this thread closed. ;) )

Now back to the show.

We're talking about RADICAL Muslims. Not the 1.5 billion moderates. If you fail to make that distinction, then you are simply making the broad assessment that ALL Muslims are terrorists. I find that highly doubtful and highly offensive. Especially when you title your response with

Oh, please, I can't stand ignorance, and blind grouping of people!

Most of the violence in Iraq and other ME countries is Muslim vs Muslim. Muslims killing themselves to kill other Muslims. Innocent Muslims. Women and children Muslims. And if they can kill a few Americans at the same time, so much the better in their eyes.

I have been studying the Quran for several months now and there is a lot of the "convert or die or pay" methodology in it. If it is, in fact, to be taken word for word, then it's no wonder there is a large number of RADICALS that are taking it to the extreme.

Looking for an independent unbiased news source?

You call that an unbiased news source? That is the worst form of bias I have seen next to a KKK site!

DC

Rekd, please, tell me your just kidding...I can't believe you're in this world, yet you are wondering about "the torture that the American government enjoined in".

What do you call this?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11944.htm ---short version on Abu Ghraib

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17242.htm --- longer version on Abu Ghraib

or this

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13597.htm --- Guantanamo Bay Style of Torture

It's a long list, trust me!

And, PLEASE, don't tell me those Americans involved were just "bad apples", because that excuse is getting old, AND because there's happening to be a whole lot of such incidents...and if a tree has so many damn bad apples, then I think we should stop blaming the apples and instead look at the tree and the roots, because there's definitely something going severly wrong in there.

And, I have no clue what and what not you classify as "torture", according to your weird list earlier, but trust me, the CIA, and the troops, are trained and do know the most suitable torture style for each victim. Here's an axample for ya...if we look at Abu Ghraib, the vast majority of the ugly torture was sexual, directed at both the male and the female Muslim detainees. And, nope that's not a coincidence, because they know that they have a kinda conservative culture, and thus that's what will affect them physically and more importantly, PSYCHOLOGICALLY the most. The same vicious game is that in Guantanamo Bay, although all we have about the conditions in Guantanamo are based on the stories of those few British detainees that were released. And I have no reason to not believe them, because if the American government is prohibiting any media personnel or pictures to be taken in there, then that obvioiusly proves nothing but the fact that there's a whole lot of horrible things going on in there that the American government doesn't want the world to see, and more importantly, its own tax-payers!

So, stop talking about different kinds of torture, as if it matters...all what matters is the fact that those are HUMANS, just like you, me, and everyone is...dehumanizing "others" is not getting us anywhere!

You also mentioned that you've been studying the quran, I've been doing that as well, simultaneously with the Bible, and that's why I know very well that the way you cite from it is very crucial to the meaning. The same can be said about the bible, but since the bible does not address military-related aspects that comprehensively, it's not that obvious to some. I'd like, however, to see your references from the Quran, if you wanna say that it's Islam and the Quran that are responsible for this!

And, I've just seen the illegal-invading-of-countries comment, I don't have time to comment on that one right now...maybe some other time, although for God's sake, it's too obvious!

And, One of Many...I call that an unbiased source because it allows me to see the OTHER side of the story, after watching CNN or FOX. From my experience with the media, I don't trust any one-source..I find it to be worth it to actually take the time and explore different sources which usually gives me a sense of truth and reality somewhere in between. There's always something going behind the scenes, yet still, we should take the time to try to get to what's really going on, instead of sitting here judging and dehumanizing of people, which is not gonna solve anything at all!

Oh, and fizzissist, let me add that what I refered to by "educating yourselves about Islam and Muslims" does NOT mean to just google a couple versus of the Quran and paste them, regardless of their original context. If I were to do the same thing with the bible or any narrative-style book, it will be but a joke! So, let's just not even go there!

Uh, how 'bout we go there.

I did not "..google a couple of versus of the Quran and paste them...", I've read a lot of it, the interpretations are pretty clear, even to the casual observer, and what I put up is in context. I couldn't care less what you choose to do with any other book. We're talking about a huge cross section of people who have chosen to interpret the verses EXACTLY as I did.

Difference being, they have elected to practice it. So, we'll just have to assume by your defending them, you're one of them?

"There is no place in a fanatic's head where reason can enter."

So true; and it does not matter whether the fanatic is one who kills and maims indiscriminantly for some misguided religio-political reason or whether the fanatic is just supporting his government in misguided and uncivilized behaviour. A fanatic is a person with a mind closed around their own beliefs and not open to rational discussion.

Don't meally mouth around, the US government is supporting torture; waterboarding, sleep deprivation and similiar treatment are torture; they all exist on a continuum. There are two 'justifications' that seem to be put forth excusing this behaviour; one is that they do not fall into the legal definition of torture the other is that this type of activity is okay because the bad guys are soooo bad it is okay for the good guys to be just a little bit bad.

Balderdash!! Torture is wrong, torture was wrong when practised during the Inquisition, torture was wrong when practised by the Waffen SS in the Second World War, torture was wrong when practised by the North Korean authorities in the Korean War, torture was wrong when practised by the North Vietnamese authorities in the Vietnam War. Torture always has been wrong. Torture always will be wrong.

Torture is the imposition of mental or physical suffering with the intent of changing the victim's beliefs or behaviour. In the case of torture the intent is as important as the act.

Torture doesn't work, if your definition of 'work' is the extraction of reliable information. Anyone willl break under torture and, if magazine articles I have read are to be believed, this reality is included in the training of some operatives who are taught to tell as much as possible; true, false, doesn't matter, mix the wheat with the chaff to confuse your interrogator.

I find it both disgusting and terrifying that there seems to be such widespread and vehement support for torture in the US. The terrifying comes about because here we have the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world unable to recognize the wrongness of its actions. This is a country that holds itself up as an example of civilized democratic behaviour under the rule of law; it stamps "In God We Trust" on its coinage. What god; the Old Testament version who allowed an old man who claimed insult to call bears from the woods to rend the young people allegedly guilty of the insult, or the New Testament version who allowed his Son to be crucified and atone for the sins of Humanity. Personally I believe in neither but I do believe that torture is not compatible with the behaviour and lifestyle espoused by the Son, whoever that individual may have been.

eng, Do you think the terrorists are on the moral high ground compared to Western civilization? (a simple yes or no will suffice)

For the record, I am not and have not studied the Bible as I have the Quran, so I am not going to try to compare the two. Suffice it to say, if I were to take the Quran literally, which is how you are supposed to take it because it's not allowed to be "interpreted", then I would deduce that if you are not a Muslim practicing Islam, you are to be converted (BY FORCE if necessary) or killed, or you are to pay a "tax" while losing many (most) of the rights afforded true Islamics.

As for torture, there are levels I'm willing to accept. That stops at physical deformations. (Cutting, burning, breaking etc). If being "a little bad" means saving lives, I'm all for it. You're not going to successfully fight hatred with love. Not in the case of the radicals we're fighting.

I now have a brother-in-law who lived in that area of the world. He moved here for a number of reasons, but I was surprised to find out what all of them were. I spoke with him the last few weeks on the situation in Iraq, the state of the Muslim world, the current view of America and/or war from a modern Muslim standpoint.I also spoke with a large number of family/friends of his that still live there.
I found that believing all of the "fair and balanced" news reports, no matter where they come from, still leave a lot to be desired. This is not a poke at anyone, (so don't start flaming me). There are always at least two sides to the story. Unfortunately, either there exists a lot of political bias in the news media, or the news simply attempts to push people by emotion and reaction, whichever makes money. I imagine a little of both, sometimes.

Out of this 1.6 billion Muslims, how many live in the U.S., the evil, vile, West? I believe a large number of them do,(not the majority, not even close, but still a respectable number) and are quite satisfied at their choice. Religious intolerance in the Arabic countries of the world is beyond comprehension. Muslims in America are left to worship as they see fit.
According to my BIL, there are a large number of Muslims in that region of the world (as much as 75-80 percent!) who would jump at the chance to live in America, or have a democracy, etc.
To the majority of Muslims in the world, America is seen as a land of peace and opportunity (I am guessing they have never been in Harlem or downtown Dallas, etc.*shudder*) BUT- at the same time, we are seen as bullies. We push our way around international laws, we have had instances of torture (that got way overplayed in the news), we posess nuclear weapons and will not allow other countries to develop nuclear power (for reasons good and bad, they agree), etc.
Even though we are viewed as bullies, and oil hungry, SUV driving, cell phone and credit card waving, ignorant sloths by some, there are literally MILLIONS of followers of Islam who would love to be here in the States, in a democratic country, etc.
Take a poll of the number of people leaving the countries that harbor terrorists (or that have terrorists flocking to them), versus the numbers you see on the news of people flocking to there to train in terrorist camps, and I think you will find that a large number of Muslims in that area are VERY intolerant of that closed minded thinking of the insurgents and terrorists. They simply want nothing to do with them, and are leaving for bluer skies.

The BIL and I spoke at great lengths about the Quran, and the intended meanings of the passages contained therein. Turns out that they are "subject to interpretation" as lead by the Imam at the mosque, or by how you feel Allah (or Muhammed, even) leads you to view them. This leads to controversy, as every sect of Islam has a different view on what the Quran says/means. At the far end of the struggle, you have the insurgents, who take the Quran, and twist it to fit their religious ideals and beliefs, and try to use religion to serve them. Thankfully, this faction is an embarrasment to all other sects of Islam, and they are also (thankfully) in the minority.
You can argue with any of the above that you like, but it comes from the BIL and at least a dozen other minds from that area of the world, who are completely immersed in it. This is not a report courtesy of Fox news. :)

Now, what are we doing in Iraq? We are protecting our oil interests, we are spreading "democracy" (at least as an idea), we are killing terrorists, etc.
Oil interests? Never! Not a Texan, you say. I retort, yes. I am a Texan, and I can see it happening.
Democracy, as it stands as an idea, would be great to spread in that region, if you could just get them to stop killing each other over their religion. The problem is that no one there wants to make a separation of religion and state.
It is always intertwined.
A lot of those killed are not terrorists, you say? Why are they shooting American troops? Why are they enacting acts of cowardice by sending their 10 year old child into public strapped with a bomb? If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and shoots back, then guess what?
I agree, personally with SOME of what we are doing there. I am on the fence, moreover. I don't agree with what we are doing all the way. I think that removing Sadaam from power could have been done differently, or with more tact.
I also think we have botched a number of operations and cost thousands of lives from ALL countries involved, simply to satiate the "humanitarian" mindset and be politically correct. Applying yourself to the rules of engagement, and observing the Geneva convention (although that would be picking and choosing, wouldn't it? :)) when it comes to war is of course acceptable, but to force valuable information from someone that could save thousands of our sons,daughters, brothers, and sisters, both here and abroad, is worth it. Sign me up. For those who disagree with torturing or other acts of "inhumanity", I have a video of a gentleman named Daniel Pearl I would like to show you. This is how they treat their prisoners. I would like to put you in a similar situation, in the middle of a war, and see how PC you can stay. :D
The events at Abu Ghraib were a tragedy. Some of the goings-on at Guantanamo are despicable. I don't approve of such behaviour, as it is unbecoming of officers, and any of us as a nation.
I do, however, completely understand the need to extract information in a wartime setting. To another American I would ask, if you could save the victims of 9/11 with a few simple actions, would you? How about the Madrid train bombings? How about the daily tragedies in the Holy Land?
I believe there is waaaayyyy too much criticism of what we are doing over there, versus support of our family that are supporting our right to bicker like this, and enable a whole other country to argue the same way, just without any bombing and small arms fire.

I might add that I know a variety of American Muslims, who are quite offended by the actions of the terrorists. They all agree that "This is specifically what Islam is NOT about. It is a religion of peace, but there are those who would always misinterpret anything, if it serves them or their ideals".

Flame me, chastise me, etc. I don't care. Everyone else posts their opinion, now I have posted mine, as well as the opinions of a few people who have been living in that hell.
After all, when it comes to my opinion and what I think, what am I but a Monday morning quarterback? If I were to run this war, I would have botched it WAAAYYY worse than we are currently.
"never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

Maybe Napoleon had the right methods then. To kill them all and ask no questions later? He espoused the ends justify the means along with separating ones conscience to do what needs to be done to gain the upper hand without remorse. I do not see where that leaves much of a chance for peace in changed minds. That is trading one fear and ugly tactic for another. The only other option left for us is to raise the white flag and get down on prayer matts as obedient losers. We are not their enemy, their leaders are creating them as enemies against the world that does not conform to their ideology.

I am not saying all torture is the right thing to do, but indiscriminate mass murder for the sake of ones God is the aggressor in this war. Their reward is unquestionable authority and absolute power under threats far worse than the kinds of interrogation pressure the US is allowed to use. Yet they get a free pass with no accountability. There are no easy answers to dealing with growing fanatics. You either go in peace as they see conversion, or you die trying to fight it. Even if they don't kill you, there is no place in their social fabric that you will be accetped as an equal. The exact kind of prejudices we have been fighting to eliminate for many years in the US. It is alive and being justified as prefered to war.


Is there a high road when dealing with the lowest vermin on the planet that still believes subjugating non-believers of their brotherhood to suffer do or die consequences? Then sends them out to other parts of the world for the same hateful causes?

My perspective of this conflict is to free at least a portion of the region of radicals to give the moderates a chance at self governing without a Dictator. I thought that was the high road. How we get there has always had its low side in any armed conflict.

I wouldn't be the first to admit I don't have it all figured out, but doing nothing has accomplished nothing, but let it grow to near insurmountable proportions. People are dying at their hands in high numbers and not a protesting pain in the ass says a word to stop that. I am afraid if we do not fight it now, it is not a matter of IF it is WHEN mushroom clouds go off in the US and our allies. I would rather support the side that has what I conclude are our best interests and the interests of a free Iraqi people, than join those that smear the US as the bigger problem. The real war is only against those that want to control Iraq against the will of the people. Most realise that what little peace there is, is because of the American GI presence.


DC

I wouldn't be the first to admit I don't have it all figured out, but doing nothing has accomplished nothing, but let it grow to near insurmountable proportions. People are dying at their hands in high numbers and not a protesting pain in the ass says a word to stop that. I am afraid if we do not fight it now, it is not a matter of IF it is WHEN mushroom clouds go off in the US and our allies. I would rather support the side that has what I conclude are our best interests and the interests of a free Iraqi people, than join those that smear the US as the bigger problem. The real war is only against those that want to control Iraq against the will of the people. Most realise that what little peace there is, is because of the American GI presence.

DC

I agree with just about everything you said especially the part about "doing nothing"

Doing nothing has gotten us where we are today. How long ago was war declared on US? How long have we ignored that declaration? How many lives have been lost because of ignoring that declaration? How many more?

I take exception to what you said about "what little peace there is".

From what I've heard (from people there in Iraq), 15 of 19 provinces are peaceful and thriving. But that doesn't sell newspapers so it doesn't get reported. Then, all of a sudden, all of Iraq is in civil unrest. Or so you'd think if you didn't have the desire for truth.

I suppose that "little" word does change the context in what I meant to convey.

I don't intend to sound like a hard liner that is insensative to human decency. But the very culture of the violence we fight against does not get the same outrage and microscopic judgements as our un-intentional mistakes or miscalculations.

DC

I suppose that "little" word does change the context in what I meant to convey.

I don't intend to sound like a hard liner that is insensative to human decency. But the very culture of the violence we fight against does not get the same outrage and microscopic judgements as our un-intentional mistakes or miscalculations.

DC

If you go by the media's representation then yes, "little peace" is appropriate albeit inaccurate.

Well, what I failed to include was where mass violence IS a greater problem. Discluding where there is calm in the face of our occupation as a double edged form of comfort that we do offer the moderates. Showing their appreciation turns them into targets.

Only recently have some felt safe enough to begin reporting the locations of combatants to protect the innocents they hide among being trapped in the cross fire. I think that is a chilling realism as to whom they know has more concern for them on the right side of the conflict.


DC

Great idea guys let sit back and do nothing, and when some terrorist kill your son or rapes your daughter because his religious beliefs told him to do so, then lets talk again!

Great idea guys let sit back and do nothing, and when some terrorist kill your son or rapes your daughter because his religious beliefs told him to do so, then lets talk again!

They'll just blame the US (Bush) for it. "Damn that Bush shouldn't have given that land to the Jews to begin with!" (nuts)

/sarcasm

if you are not a Muslim practicing Islam, you are to be converted (BY FORCE if necessary) or killed, or you are to pay a "tax" while losing many (most) of the rights afforded true Islamics.


And you thought that went out with the Ottoman Empire didn't you?

Hah! Guess again.


Posted GMT 3-18-2007 18:29:1

Baghdad (AINA) -- Muslims in the Dora neighborhood of Iraq are forcing Assyrians (also known as Chaldeans and Syriacs) to pay the jizya, the poll tax demanded by the Koran which all Christians and Jews must pay in exchange for being allowed to live and practice their faith as well as being entitled to 'Muslim protection' from outside aggression.

At least two cases have been reported to a government employee -- who wishes to remain anonymous -- in which the Christian Assyrian wives were instructed to go to a certain mosque and pay, which they did out of fear. The stated reason for the payment was "we do the fighting and you pay to support."

The jizya has been collected since the arrival of Islam in 630 A.D. The last systematic collection was by the Ottomans (Turks), which came to an end only in 1918, when the Ottoman empire was defeated and partitioned in World War One.

Just stepping to one side for a second.
While I know some may find this thread a problem, and talking about such issues too confronting, I really appreciate those who are batting for both sides with conviction, and the on the whole, people been civil in this debate.

I think this is warming, that we can talk about such issues and yet not become hostile towards each other. ( Few small exceptions maybe)

The truth is, most of us can see each others side of the argument and even understand where they are coming from.

Judging by the ammount of posts in a short ammount of time, this sort of thing needs to be aired from time to time.

Keep up the great work guys. This is the best discussion I've been reading for a long while.

massajamesb,

If common Americans can make these connections and have meaningful conversations with common Iraqi's and Muslims in general. One would think the media could do the same by reporting stories that bring forth much more unity of countries for the common good of both. In many ways, they are profoundly responsible in instigating emotional frictions that carry around the world. When there are two sides to a story, the one that gets dropped has lesser powers of the pen in cronyisms. Not to mention less chances for pats on the back at award ceremonies too!

If it makes you feel part of the "large group".......here is your Flame!(flame2):withstupi :D

DC

massajamesb,

If common Americans can make these connections and have meaningful conversations with common Iraqi's and Muslims in general. One would think the media could do the same by reporting stories that bring forth much more unity of countries for the common good of both. In many ways, they are profoundly responsible in instigating emotional frictions that carry around the world. When there are two sides to a story, the one that gets dropped has lesser powers of the pen in cronyisms. Not to mention less chances for pats on the back at award ceremonies too!

If it makes you feel part of the "large group".......here is your Flame!(flame2):withstupi :D

DC


I feel that it is the negativity prevailant in the news media that stirs up a lot of social, political, and religous unrest, and is mistaken for political "siding". Not to say that there is no "politickin" involved with the media, but moreover, emotional topics make money, and news reporters follow the smell of money.

I can't say I blame them, as they have to eat too. The only problem is that they don't report the rest of the story to make it "fair and balanced". It is unfair to the Muslims in the world who embrace the West and its' ideals, values, and morals. It is also extremely unfair to the Americans, Brits, Aussies, and any other country who is involved in this, or carries an opinion.
To only be shown one side of the story, and to formulate an opinion as a result will succeed in creating ignorance and bias. I don't mind admitting ignorance on my part. Better that than to walk around with my nose in the air, looking down on those who think differently.

Thanks for the flaming, I know I probably deserve some at some point :D
Although I would ask that no one consider me to be "flaming". :D Them's fightin' words :)

Dear All,

I expect the last person you want in this is a Brit, but I think some points should be made.

1) The IRA killed about as many people in its terrorist campaign against the "Brits" as died in "The Twin Towers".

The IRA campaign lasted somewhat longer than 9/11.

Both sides were/are nominally Christians.

Same body-count.

Who funded it? Well, some funds were paid by a few big checks signed in New York City, by those fooled by "Patriot Games" sentimentality. Why? Because they had a romantic dream about a historic injustice and bought into it. And incidentally, bought explosives to eviscerate entirely innocent people in the UK.

Were the other side blameless? Absolutely not, but I happen to think that the UK Government was a bit less evil than the IRA. Just a bit.

2) I think that there are other people in the Middle East who may share the feelings of the people who paid for the IRA bombs in my country. It does not make them any more wicked, but, like those in NYC, they need enlightenment.

3) It is unlikely that the US can preach an enlightening message when people are held, off-shore, in a cynical attempt to circumvent international law.

4) There will be more recruits to the terrorist cause if the "land of the free" bends rules of its own making.

5) There is absolutely no chance of removing terrorism by military means. It can only be removed by dialogue and a generous foreign policy by those in government, and an attempt to appreciate someone else's point of view.

6) This is the "war" where words matter more than guns.

Best wishes

Martin

I disagree. The last time I checked, there have been British souls over there fighting for the cause as well, not to mention the impact of the war and terrorism on the U.K. Feel free to voice what you feel.
However, I don't think the war on terrorism is a war of words. It will take much more than that. Violence will beget violence, sure, that much is true.
The problem is, the main thing that will slow the hatred of the terrorists is for the U.S. to withdraw its' interests in Jerusalem, and let the Palestinians and Jews duke it out over the holy land. This is where a lot of the terrorists get their ideas that all Americans are anti-Islam, and they carry this ignorant message to others like them who have skewed views the same as theirs.

This is a religion and religious ideals war. There does not seem to be any way to reason with them, and bargaining (I guess?) is out of the question. This is not my choice, but what these radicals have set in front of them. I did not force their hand to blow up anything, here or abroad, and neither did my country or any other. They did what they did of their own consent and made their own choices to instigate a war against their ideals.
I can toss religious "Christian" pamplets at them while they shoot at me, but I doubt I will get far. I have enough trouble fending off the Jehovas witnesses at my front door, and they don't have guns.:)

Dear All,

I expect the last person you want in this is a Brit, but I think some points should be made.



Martin,

Very well put. I am sure that a lot of the conflicts that we are witnessing are partly as a sesult of more and more of the globes wealth is ending up in fewer and fewer hands.

As a result there is a growing proportion of the the globes population who are disenfranchised, missing out and not happy with the situation. And, I can only see it getting worse. So, when some radical says "Follow me I'll lead you out of this", listens to these people, and makes them feel like people, they get support.

As Pink Floyd observed;

"There's too many home fires burning. And not enough trees."

Peter.

As Pink Floyd observed;

"There's too many home fires burning. And not enough trees."

Peter.

Dear Peter,

That's a gentle come-down for my angst-ridden post!

Thank-you

Which Floyd album???

Best wishes

Martin

Dear Peter,

That's a gentle come-down for my angst-ridden post!

Thank-you

Which Floyd album???

Best wishes

Martin

The Final Cut. song, Not now John

Cheers,

Peter.

The Final Cut. song, Not now John

Cheers,

Peter.

Oh b#gger!

Don't have that CD.

Must go.

BW

Martin

Alright, it's been a long day...now back to the show lol


Difference being, they have elected to practice it. So, we'll just have to assume by your defending them, you're one of them?

Here's your problem...you are just obsessed about "us and them". The same sick concept of "you're either with us or against us". So, if someone's opinion does not agree with yours to a certain degree, then they are labelled as "THEM", or damn "OTHERS"! From my point of view, that's a sick classification.
Regardless of MY religion or belief, I am just somebody who's been to that part of the world, specifically to Palestine, and has witnessed how the typical day of an average person looks like back there. I haven't been to Iraq, so all my Iraq-related opinions are based on various media sources. However, when it comes to Palestine, and Islam and Muslims in general, I speak from a personal experience. So, I'd appreciate it if you don't start with that "them and us", or "you and us"...it's getting way too old!



Don't meally mouth around, the US government is supporting torture; waterboarding, sleep deprivation and similiar treatment are torture; they all exist on a continuum. There are two 'justifications' that seem to be put forth excusing this behaviour; one is that they do not fall into the legal definition of torture the other is that this type of activity is okay because the bad guys are soooo bad it is okay for the good guys to be just a little bit bad.

Balderdash!! Torture is wrong, torture was wrong when practised during the Inquisition, torture was wrong when practised by the Waffen SS in the Second World War, torture was wrong when practised by the North Korean authorities in the Korean War, torture was wrong when practised by the North Vietnamese authorities in the Vietnam War. Torture always has been wrong. Torture always will be wrong.

Torture is the imposition of mental or physical suffering with the intent of changing the victim's beliefs or behaviour. In the case of torture the intent is as important as the act.

I find it both disgusting and terrifying that there seems to be such widespread and vehement support for torture in the US.

Yes, thank you, Geof, that's the point...I cannot agree more!

eng, Do you think the terrorists are on the moral high ground compared to Western civilization? (a simple yes or no will suffice)

For the record, I am not and have not studied the Bible as I have the Quran, so I am not going to try to compare the two. Suffice it to say, if I were to take the Quran literally, which is how you are supposed to take it because it's not allowed to be "interpreted", then I would deduce that if you are not a Muslim practicing Islam, you are to be converted (BY FORCE if necessary) or killed, or you are to pay a "tax" while losing many (most) of the rights afforded true Islamics.

As for torture, there are levels I'm willing to accept. That stops at physical deformations. (Cutting, burning, breaking etc). If being "a little bad" means saving lives, I'm all for it. You're not going to successfully fight hatred with love. Not in the case of the radicals we're fighting.

The answer to your first question cannot be a simple yes or no. This is due to the fact that the term "terrorist" nowadays has been used so loosely. For the people in this part of the world, anyone fighting against the allied troops in Iraq for instance is a terrorist/insurgent/etc...while for many others, it's those same soldiers who are considered to be "terrorists".
So, recalling the fact that "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", there's no yes or no answer to that. However, I am also against that dilemma of "eastern versus western civilization" or "clash of civilizations"! It's nonsense to me...because looking at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, for me, those are not any less cruel or uncivilized than the act of september 11, for instance.

Now, with respect to the tax and jizya statement, perhaps this clarification may help.

"Non-Muslims were required to pay a levy or jizya. The jizya was not paid as a bribe for practicing their faith, but rather as compensation for not serving in the army, protection for Crusading armies and tribal warfare. While we see many people nowadays screaming that the jizya is a tool of inequality, they fail to see that there is a tax levied on Muslims as well, the zakat, which non-Muslims are NOT required to pay.
Therefore, the Jizya tax guarantees the Christians and Jews complete protection under the Islamic state. If an enemy country attacks the Islamic country, the Islamic country has a duty to defend the Christians and Jews and the Christians and Jews are not even obliged to fight!
Usually, verse 9:29 of the Quran is used to to show that Muslims must fight the nonMuslims residing within the Islamic State, until they pay the Jizya, claiming that that shows discrimination. However, this also applies to the Muslims who do not pay their Zakat! Abu Bakr (an early Muslim leader) fought against the Muslims who didn't pay Zakat. So how does this discriminate against the Christians and Jews?
This is completely justified. If they go against the Islamic rule and government they deserve to be punished. What else was Abu Bakr supposed to do? In America if someone does not pay their taxes they can go to jail. Does that make America unjust? In China they kill tax evaders (A New York Times article describes the context and details of one businessman who was executed in China for tax evasion (11 Mar. 2001))."

This section is from an article that was given to me in a History class that I've taken last semester. And yes, the professor was American, a very intelligent knowledgeable person that I highly respect, so if you wanna call him "biased or brain-washed or whatever", then what shall I say...go for it!

And with regard to your statement that the Quran is not allowed to be interpreted, I am not sure what you mean by that. It's true that the quran is in Arabic, and any translation is not considered as informative or comprehensive as the Arabic original version. However, what I was referring to by "how to cite from the quran, or the bible, is crucial to the meaning" is that according to my Quran and Bible studies, it's believed that the quran was not revealed all at once; it was revealed in sections, linked to a specific occasion or event throughout a 23-year span. So, if you wish to study the quran intellectually, you would be wasting your time if you just wanna take the English translation and start reading with no references to the reason or cause of that specific verse or chapter. So that's all I meant by that.

Also, regarding your comment on "the level of torture that you are willing to accept", then I frankly feel so sorry for ya. Perhaps a psychology class/course may help ya out to realize how, in many cases, a psychological torture can be significantly more harmful than a physical one; especially that its effect usually lasts for years, or perhaps forever!

Massajamesb

I agree and respect many of the points you suggested, but I do disagree with some.

Regarding your statement that billions of those people in the Muslim world would love to come and live in the US, I partially agree with that. I do know that those people, like all of us, just want to live, get a decent job, and bring up their kids in a peaceful environment.
However, from my experience with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, stating that many of them would wish to come and live in the states isn't really accurate, SURPRISINGLY enough. As you people may or may not know, there are 4+ million Palestinian refugees living awfully tough lives on the Palestinian borders since 1948 and 1967. They were offered at various occasions to be given citizenships in the countries they are residing at, which would obviously dramatically improve their living conditions. However, the vast majority of them refused. We may think they are crazy to turn down such an offer, however, to those people, Palestine means something...the land, the atmosphere, the nationality, the holy places...all of that means LIFE for them. Yes, it is true that they WISH to be able to live like the people in the states do, in terms of freedom and peace of mind (i.e. no Israeli occupation, no humiliating checkpoints, no F-16 and Apache warplanes above their heads day and night), however, I don't think stating that they would love to move and live in the US strongly applies to those people. They would love to have similar dignified living conditions, however, as long as that's within their own country. But, as is the case with anything, there are exceptions to every rule.

With regard to the Video of Daniel Pearl, I did watch that one, it's indeed disgusting and terrifying. However, taking that as a justification for torturing and murdering a whole nation or even a group of people, will lead us nowhere but into a vicious circle. Because, by the same token, every one of those who lost a beloved one in that region of the world, during the so called war on terrorism (starting in Afghanistan, then Iraq, and who knows where it's heading to; Iran, Syria, etc) can say exactly the same thing; justifying why it is OK to torture and kill Americans, or atleast American soldiers on their own land. So, this is all am talking about...a vicious circle!

If we can discuss this with eng, I'd think a Brit is welcome too. It is on everyone's mind. I just wish it could be much simpler to resolve amicably.

Everyone seems to have a solution. Like it's just a snap of the fingers and it microwave popcorn, war over. One sides idea of a reasonable end is another's loss of dignity and world standing. Then again if we walk away, the bloodshed to date might look small in comparison.

From what I have read. The Brit's better get busy enlightening from what may be coming threats of their own Islamic problems. Let us know how the dialog goes with the home grown cells you have there. It just might work on the global version of terrorist too.

If you and the terrorists know these words that matter more than guns, how come there was ever a problem over there in the first place?:D

Meanwhile we will make room at the off shore enlightening isle, just in case you find some unsavory types that need a room at the Inn! I'd bet it has better accommodations than what they had at home and sadly it's all free on us.

Generous foreign policy is what we do best. I think the deal with N. Korea will cost us in taxes for years to come and we still might not see the end to this little monster shooting duds over Japan if they ever get off the pad.

DC

1) The IRA killed about as many people in its terrorist campaign against the "Brits" as died in "The Twin Towers".

The IRA campaign lasted somewhat longer than 9/11.

Both sides were/are nominally Christians.

3) It is unlikely that the US can preach an enlightening message when people are held, off-shore, in a cynical attempt to circumvent international law.

4) There will be more recruits to the terrorist cause if the "land of the free" bends rules of its own making.

5) There is absolutely no chance of removing terrorism by military means. It can only be removed by dialogue and a generous foreign policy by those in government, and an attempt to appreciate someone else's point of view.

6) This is the "war" where words matter more than guns.



I absolutely agree, martinw. In fact, the death toll among the American troops in Iraq alone is 3,219, which indeed IS greater than the number of Americans killed on 9/11. (Let alone the 655,000 Iraqi people killed thus far, and I don't wanna even start with the death tolls of both sides in Afghanistan...it's pathetic!).
But the point is, yes, the answer to all of this cannot be through force. Because, as I've stated ealier, it will lead us nowhere but into *a vicious circle*!

"Here is your problem"?

Who are you, the judging authority above all ready to set the record straight according to your world view?

When you do the "us and them" thing you disagree with.......you can then state that the concept of OTHERS is sick? Doesn't that make you a little sick too?

Geesh, In the movies, vampires cannot see themselves in a mirror either. For someone unbiased, I'm thinking I need garlic hanging around my neck reading some of your justifications for evil acts while chastising those you disagree with or the wording they choose.

I must ask, were you born in the US or do you have allegiances elsewhere? I think your religious affiliations should be part of the discussion also. It should not be a hidden part of your presence here, but it would make clearer, some of the reasoning behind your perspectives.

DC

"Here is your problem"?

Who are you, the judging authority above all ready to set the record straight according to your world view?

When you do the "us and them" thing you disagree with.......you can then state that the concept of OTHERS is sick? Doesn't that make you a little sick too?

Geesh, In the movies, vampires cannot see themselves in a mirror either. For someone unbiased, I'm thinking I need garlic hanging around my neck reading some of your justifications for evil acts while chastising those you disagree with or the wording they choose.

I must ask, were you born in the US or do you have allegiances elsewhere? I think your religious affiliations should be part of the discussion also. It should not be a hidden part of your presence here, but it would make clearer, some of the reasoning behind your perspectives.

DC

Well, One of Many, I suggest you stop trying to lead the flow of this discussion into a personal level.
For the record, the "Here's your problem" comment of mine that you seem to have a problem with, was aimed at the person who started judging and labeling me and my beliefs.

I do not claim or believe that "I know it all"; not even close, and I DID emphasize that the media at our time is a disaster; which brings up the crucial need on our part to take the time and the effort to explore various media sources in order to have a grasp on what's truly happening in our world. And also for the record, show me one single statement I said that "justified acts of evil"-according to your accusations.

*hint hint* :bs: you may need to scroll up! lol

And nope, I don't think that my religious beliefs are relevant to this discussion. Simply due to the fact that regardless of whether I tell you I am a Christian or a Muslim, a Jew or a Hindu, you'll find some category among those religious beliefs to classify me into..given nowadays' weird and unjustifiable classifications!

So, relax and take a deep breath...all those personal comments/attacks or whatever you wanna call them, don't make any difference to me, and I won't really take the time to address them. I am here for an intellectual discussion; other than that, I'd rather invest my time into something more useful and productive.

How many people discussing this topic have served in the military in any capacity or been under fire? How many have voted for or against the politicians making these policies? How many have served in some capacity for the country they love?

War is hell. Point blank simple. He who kills the most, the fastest, wins. It has always been this way. War is waged when diplomacy fails. When the enemy does not believe in diplomacy, pull no punches. My views do not need to be justified by the villainy of past wars or actions of past warlords/generals. When confronted by a "peaceful" majority of Muslims who tolerate "radical" Islam, this behavior cannot be tolerated. We do not live in a world where we can accept the possibility of another Hitler or WWII. We cannot rely on the accepted practices preached by the very people whose inaction or inappropriate action allowed these circumstances to come to fruition. When politicians policies brought us to the point where we were then committed to a war, they need to put up or shut up. Full on or pull out. No more lip service. Give all or give nothing. And give everything. That is the choice. This isn't about Christians vs. Muslims. This is about the freedom to live how you choose or the acceptance of living how they choose for you to live. Some gave all. All have not gave some. Many give nothing.

I am not some armchair general. I have been shot at by 12 year old boys in Mogadishu. I have been shot at by intolerant Christians in Bosnia. I have been shot at by intolerant Muslims in Bosnia. I have been shot at by terroristic rebels in Colombia, who coerce, torture and extort those who get in the way of their export of cocaine. When death confronts you, you accept death or reject it. By rejecting death, you accept life. Life affirming decisions require that you meet the threat with an equal or greater force. Or you don't so that they may live and perpetrate their brand of violence on another. Anyone who stands in the way of your freedom deserve no mercy for they grant none. Accept their impedence on your freedom and you live as a slave, not a free person. Do not pay lip service to your freedom, if you are not willing to earn it. Put up or shut up. I did not sweat or bleed in ****hole countries that my leaders sent me to so that I could be sacrificed like a lamb to the slaughter. If I must die in the name of others freedom, then I will die as a lion, inflicting as much death as humanly possible. That is what soldiers do. They kill so others may know peace.

Generous foreign policy is what we do best.
DC

you sure about that!!!
within two weeks of illegal tarriffs being hit on our lumber i was out of a good job , they tryed to outright crash our economy period

i'm not out to open a whole other can of worms but i don t agree with policies of the many governments

bottom line is some people are talking with anger and hatered , Afganistan needed to be hit they indeed harboured terrorists , Iraq got hit because someone said they did ,
just as other countries in this world the leaders of those countries were ruthless killers who tortured and killed "their own" people , many of those INNOCENT people have lived and suffered due to their governmental iron fist rulings , now many of those people are being judged by a mob like mentality for living there , though they would have been shot dead if they tryed to leave , these are the same people that come home to sit on the floor to play with their children and thank God that the family was safe for another day , picture yourself being that guy on the news who is running crying thru the streets with your three year old drenched in blood lifeless daughter or son , ya look your own kid in the eye and think about it , i have !!!
most of those people want there governments taken down

don t let anger or hatred jade who is the true enemy , because the hatred will become become a vicious circle that won t go away

at the same time i hold strong on the beleif the terrorists should have there throats slit on the spot

as for the coran their profit mohamid beleaved if you can t convert them kill them ,but later in his years went against that belief and said there had to be peace
many things can be interpreted wrong , another mans words , books etc

How many people discussing this topic have served in the military in any capacity or been under fire? How many have voted for or against the politicians making these policies? How many have served in some capacity for the country they love?

War is hell. Point blank simple. He who kills the most, the fastest, wins. It has always been this way. War is waged when diplomacy fails. When the enemy does not believe in diplomacy, pull no punches. My views do not need to be justified by the villainy of past wars or actions of past warlords/generals. When confronted by a "peaceful" majority of Muslims who tolerate "radical" Islam, this behavior cannot be tolerated. We do not live in a world where we can accept the possibility of another Hitler or WWII. We cannot rely on the accepted practices preached by the very people whose inaction or inappropriate action allowed these circumstances to come to fruition. When politicians policies brought us to the point where we were then committed to a war, they need to put up or shut up. Full on or pull out. No more lip service. Give all or give nothing. And give everything. That is the choice. This isn't about Christians vs. Muslims. This is about the freedom to live how you choose or the acceptance of living how they choose for you to live. Some gave all. All have not gave some. Many give nothing.

I am not some armchair general. I have been shot at by 12 year old boys in Mogadishu. I have been shot at by intolerant Christians in Bosnia. I have been shot at by intolerant Muslims in Bosnia. I have been shot at by terroristic rebels in Colombia, who coerce, torture and extort those who get in the way of their export of cocaine. When death confronts you, you accept death or reject it. By rejecting death, you accept life. Life affirming decisions require that you meet the threat with an equal or greater force. Or you don't so that they may live and perpetrate their brand of violence on another. Anyone who stands in the way of your freedom deserve no mercy for they grant none. Accept their impedence on your freedom and you live as a slave, not a free person. Do not pay lip service to your freedom, if you are not willing to earn it. Put up or shut up. I did not sweat or bleed in ****hole countries that my leaders sent me to so that I could be sacrificed like a lamb to the slaughter. If I must die in the name of others freedom, then I will die as a lion, inflicting as much death as humanly possible. That is what soldiers do. They kill so others may know peace.



Hi WYLD,

It's good to get a view from someone who has been on the front line, so to speak. I'm not trying to bait you, but can I ask a question that I have trouble finding an answer.

As you have stated, once you get to the stage of pointing guns at each other, then its basically no holds barred. And I can accept this.

So, what is this term "Unlawful combatant" all about?

The coalition went into Afganistan to remove a reigheim. They came accross people who shot back. These people were wearing no uniform, just defending their patch, trying not to be shot, captured whatever.

When they are caught they are deemed as not playing fair. Labelled an unlawful combatants and are not POWs, get to stay at the "Inn" and are charged with "attempted muder"

How does that work? If somebody invaded the land of Oz, I reckon I should be able to pick up my cricket bat (Don't own a baseball bat, let alone a firearm) and have a go at them, and whether I was in a uniform or my pajamas should matter. Especially if I was being shot at.

It just doesn't seem right to me.

Cheers,

Peter.

Massajamesb

I agree and respect many of the points you suggested, but I do disagree with some.

Regarding your statement that billions of those people in the Muslim world would love to come and live in the US, I partially agree with that. I do know that those people, like all of us, just want to live, get a decent job, and bring up their kids in a peaceful environment.
However, from my experience with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, stating that many of them would wish to come and live in the states isn't really accurate, SURPRISINGLY enough. As you people may or may not know, there are 4+ million Palestinian refugees living awfully tough lives on the Palestinian borders since 1948 and 1967. They were offered at various occasions to be given citizenships in the countries they are residing at, which would obviously dramatically improve their living conditions. However, the vast majority of them refused. We may think they are crazy to turn down such an offer, however, to those people, Palestine means something...the land, the atmosphere, the nationality, the holy places...all of that means LIFE for them. Yes, it is true that they WISH to be able to live like the people in the states do, in terms of freedom and peace of mind (i.e. no Israeli occupation, no humiliating checkpoints, no F-16 and Apache warplanes above their heads day and night), however, I don't think stating that they would love to move and live in the US strongly applies to those people. They would love to have similar dignified living conditions, however, as long as that's within their own country. But, as is the case with anything, there are exceptions to every rule.

With regard to the Video of Daniel Pearl, I did watch that one, it's indeed disgusting and terrifying. However, taking that as a justification for torturing and murdering a whole nation or even a group of people, will lead us nowhere but into a vicious circle. Because, by the same token, every one of those who lost a beloved one in that region of the world, during the so called war on terrorism (starting in Afghanistan, then Iraq, and who knows where it's heading to; Iran, Syria, etc) can say exactly the same thing; justifying why it is OK to torture and kill Americans, or atleast America