I know someones has probably already posted this TV show, but hey, It's worth watching again.

The only parts left out, were about the things mankind has done to contribute to global warming. Such as black particle emissions, heat islands, deforestation of the rain forests, darkening of the seas through errosion, and such. Let's face it people, with the big solar heater in the sky dumping 125,000 TeraWatts of energy on the planet, how were the little humans going to compete. There's a whole bunch of you greenies out there, that someday soon, will have to come up with an excuse for the errors in your predictions. I hope you don't kill the U.S. before the truth comes out.

http://video.google.com/google...566792811497638&hl=en

There's a whole bunch of you greenies out there, that someday soon, will have to come up with an excuse for the errors in your predictions. I hope you don't kill the U.S. before the truth comes out.


They didn't have to answer for the lies about Global Cooling, what makes you think they'll have to answer for the LIES about Global Warming???

They didn't have to answer for the lies about Global Cooling, what makes you think they'll have to answer for the LIES about Global Warming???

Didn't the Global Cooling stuff precede radical Greenies? Also great expensive pointless proposals to combat Global Cooling were not proposed/enforced.

My first post and it's in the political section, lol. :)

Tree Huggers are everywhere, bad enough I live in California. But just glad I'm waaaaaay south of Frisco (flame2)

OK. we get it.. Allot of you guys are conservative and like to bash wealthy, highly educated, somewhat rediculous democrat politicians with big mouths.

please realize how little compassion you are showing. selfish buggers.

I dont have anything specific against conservatives ro any other group.. but i dont understand the chest thumping here.. you guys like pollution?!?!

dont you realize that even worse than al gore attempting to get political power from this issue is the private companies selling US ALL OUT in order to make $$ for their very wealthy owners and boardmembers and large shareholders?

why are you siding with a system that has proven itself to be un-trustworthy and totally unprogressive?! please, stop being so damn party-line!

please do not hate me because i am not exactly the same as you.. just try and think about things in broader terms... dont try and be 'the right one' about these issues that are much larger than your space within a bbs post!

<3

why is 'greenie' a put down?!?!

what is wrong with people.. should i go cry in the corner now because it is a harsh and absurd world?

OK. we get it.. Allot of you guys are conservative and like to bash wealthy, highly educated, somewhat rediculous democrat politicians with big mouths.

please realize how little compassion you are showing. selfish buggers.

I dont have anything specific against conservatives ro any other group.. but i dont understand the chest thumping here.. you guys like pollution?!?!

dont you realize that even worse than al gore attempting to get political power from this issue is the private companies selling US ALL OUT in order to make $$ for their very wealthy owners and boardmembers and large shareholders?

why are you siding with a system that has proven itself to be un-trustworthy and totally unprogressive?! please, stop being so damn party-line!

please do not hate me because i am not exactly the same as you.. just try and think about things in broader terms... dont try and be 'the right one' about these issues that are much larger than your space within a bbs post!

<3

I don't know about highly educated, when uneducated decisions are made. But I would like to know in what way we are being sold out and how our system is un-trusworthy / unprogressive, since were one of the most cleanest and prosperous nations on earth?

I'm asking because tree huggers / greenies who make uneducated decisions interfere with my everyday life and occupation.

I don't know about highly educated, when uneducated decisions are made. But I would like to know in what way we are being sold out and how our system is un-trusworthy / unprogressive, since were one of the most cleanest and prosperous nations on earth?

I'm asking because tree huggers / greenies who make uneducated decisions interfere with my everyday life and occupation.

'greenies and tree huggers' probably have as much to do with your day to day as concious, empathetic, didactic reasoning. which is to say, keep up the good work. i am happy to share my breathing air with you, seeing as at least one of us diserves what we get.

massively profiting from products that damage the property of others is 'selling one out'.

Hmmmm, do you use these products? Do they help out in everyday life? Can we function without them? I need more info and examples if you don't mind.

But keep in mind, one volcano eruption is more pollutants than man has done in his entire short blink of an eye life time. Surface and subsurface, these are natural and nature has it's ways of cleaning itself :)

about global warming ill say this,the earth was in an ace while back,of course its going to warm up and the ice melt,what you expect,these are natural cycles that we will not stop,are we contributing to it,yes,can we slow it down,maybe,but not if we are th only country,as far as selling out,we spend the most and do the most of any nation around the world,when theres a mess,we either clean it up or pay for in all the poor third world countries
china is the biggest destroyer of the enviorment,why dont you go over there and tell it to them,if you want to make the enviorment better,start there,but they would only shoot you,sad but true,we are mostly alone in the war to save the enviorment

enjoy your oppinion.

of course i use the products. and i breathe pollution emitted based on credit 'purchased' from a state where they use hydro electric... there is some irony there.

i dont know about where you live, but here the utilities regularly get caught fixing rates, etc. keep bringing up 'global warming' all you want. that is only one issue. the larger issue is still pollution, the right to pollute, and what is really fair and legal.

your argument about volcanos is rediculous. consider what you are saying and how absurd that is. it is like saying some people steal, so stealing is not only appropriate and fine, but inevitable, and anyone who dosent steal is guilty. keep pretending to be happy and secure and invested with the oil economy.. it is sort of like being a nazi sympathizer.

california is a beautifull state. culturaly and aestheticaly.

much of it is politics, but china not only admits to this issue, but has at least begun pretending to make moves to change some of this in the future. maybe you have read about their seemingly honest effort to avoid as much petroleum use for cars as possible?

'climate change, global warming' - this is a bit of a red herring. the issue is still political and economic as much as environmental. the cost of dealing with pollution is the real issue. sure the argument can be made about the higher energy costs comming back to consumers. however, much as i love anarchistic ideals, i also really enjoy the way market systems seem to really drive innovation when a roadblock is met.

for the record, the other night at the bar i recited quite a bit of the anti-gore information from reading posts here, to further the discussion we were having. everyone of my liberal\non political but obviousely not conservative friends agrees with one basic premise:al gore cannot be trusted, his grandstanding is transparent, this contest is a farce.

so. please, before anyone discredits a point of view on a complex subject based on prejudice, consider how much that weakens your own arguments.


about global warming ill say this,the earth was in an ace while back,of course its going to warm up and the ice melt,what you expect,these are natural cycles that we will not stop,are we contributing to it,yes,can we slow it down,maybe,but not if we are th only country,as far as selling out,we spend the most and do the most of any nation around the world,when theres a mess,we either clean it up or pay for in all the poor third world countries
china is the biggest destroyer of the enviorment,why dont you go over there and tell it to them,if you want to make the enviorment better,start there,but they would only shoot you,sad but true,we are mostly alone in the war to save the enviorment

enjoy your oppinion.

of course i use the products. and i breathe pollution emitted based on credit 'purchased' from a state where they use hydro electric... there is some irony there.

i dont know about where you live, but here the utilities regularly get caught fixing rates, etc. keep bringing up 'global warming' all you want. that is only one issue. the larger issue is still pollution, the right to pollute, and what is really fair and legal.

your argument about volcanos is rediculous. consider what you are saying and how absurd that is. it is like saying some people steal, so stealing is not only appropriate and fine, but inevitable, and anyone who dosent steal is guilty. keep pretending to be happy and secure and invested with the oil economy.. it is sort of like being a nazi sympathizer.

california is a beautifull state. culturaly and aestheticaly.

I apologize for not clarifying my original point.

I don't believe WE are destroying the earth or capable of it. Are we putting up pollutants, yes, destroying? No.

My reason for volcanism is that more dangerous pollutants are put into our air that you and I breathe and water that you and I swim in.

The earth has it's own cleaning system, the theory that man's pollutants are causing a warming or cooling trend is "THEORY" too ridiculous to buy into. Like I said, one volcano eruption is more than man has put out in it's lifetime.

I suppose you find a clearcut forest to be a sign of progress and business as usual.

(looks at feet, frowns sadly)

(walks away shaking head)...

I apologize for not clarifying my original point.

I don't believe WE are destroying the earth or capable of it. Are we putting up pollutants, yes, destroying? No.

My reason for volcanism is that more dangerous pollutants are put into our air that you and I breathe and water that you and I swim in.

The earth has it's own cleaning system, the theory that man's pollutants are causing a warming or cooling trend is "THEORY" too ridiculous to buy into. Like I said, one volcano eruption is more than man has put out in it's lifetime.

so. please, before anyone discredits a point of view on a complex subject based on prejudice, consider how much that weakens your own arguments.

This could also apply to using the phrase: "it is sort of like being a nazi sympathizer.". You discredit yourself and weaken your own arguments.

i am not the one suggesting that it ok to do something harmful and avoidable because volcanos do it.

the thought was incomplete. it is like being an american company supplying the nazis previous to our official involvment in the war.. i sure dont want to open an argument over why US joined WW2 when and for what... but it is the same sort of mindset..

i would call it machivellian, but really it is just greedy. i suppose this guy would fancy himself machivellian if he was inclined to think in such terms.


This could also apply to using the phrase: "it is sort of like being a nazi sympathizer.". You discredit yourself and weaken your own arguments.

Has anyone bothered to read the recent report on "Global Warming?" The most important measurement in the whole equation is how much energy is the sun sending to the Earth? The equipment to measure that is only about 10 years old and the accuracy is questionable. Because of this, the scientific community has considered the sun to be a CONSTANT SOURCE. This is wrong!! Currently, Mars is losing its polar ice caps to a greater degree than what it had in the past. What does this tell us? The sun has been ejecting more energy in recent history and it is affecting more than just our planet. "Global Warming" isn't caused by man, it's a natural occurrence. How much time do we have recorded of the Earth's history? We don't have a statistically significant amount of data to make any kind of predictions. How then, can we claim to know what is going on with the environment? Does anyone remember 30 years ago when we were headed for another ice age? They don't know what's going on. How can they claim to know now?

has anybody stopped asking if 'global warming' exists, and started asking 'why do we care more for the red herring than the actual issue?'

also.. the only person here who seems to make claims with any sensible limits seems to be geof and his comments in this thread are less than useful..

try and seperate your political belief from your economic interests and then again from your stated oppinions on the debate over climate change...

these are not compatible issues if you want to 'be right', which clearly you do.. surely being 'reasonable' holds some appeal?

why argue in favor of a huge industry full of spooky rich men who were allready rich on their first day of life and really do 'stick it to us'.

maan.. it makes my sticking up for microsoft look like a noble cause..

I suppose you find a clearcut forest to be a sign of progress and business as usual.

(looks at feet, frowns sadly)

(walks away shaking head)...

Did you know that there are more trees in the US than there ever was when the Euro's arrived?

do you know your statements have no references and dont really mean anything in and of themselves?

so far you told us that volcanos make it ok to pollute, 'tree huggers' damage your business, and 'there are more trees now than before'

somehow i find the last idea specifically difficult.. but then, what do i know about the conversion of farmland from forest? the cutting of alaskan timber?

almost nothing, so i wont assume anything, just, you know, good luck fighting off the green menace..

Did you know that there are more trees in the US than there ever was when the Euro's arrived?

Did you know that there are more trees in the US than there ever was when the Euro's arrived?

What evidence do you have to support this?

do you know your statements have no references and dont really mean anything in and of themselves?

so far you told us that volcanos make it ok to pollute, 'tree huggers' damage your business, and 'there are more trees now than before'

somehow i find the last idea specifically difficult.. but then, what do i know about the conversion of farmland from forest? the cutting of alaskan timber?

almost nothing, so i wont assume anything, just, you know, good luck fighting off the green menace..

When I get some time I promise you, I will re-research a url statistic and give a ref from a government website which I read (Dept of Forestry RE: Tree population for more hugging :) ) after debating a much similar thread in another forum.

Tree huggers / greenies interfere with my occupation in the form of making uneducated decisions on incadescent lighting as well as mercury filled illumination, but that's another topic. But as always we get what we vote for, right?

welcome to cnczone. you will find some very friendly, even headed, and helpfull people here, trying to learn and teach for the mostly pure love of learning and teaching...

Did you know that there are more trees in the US than there ever was when the Euro's arrived?


Really ? , That seems to be your OPINION , Your governments own "Nationalatlas.gov" site quotes:-


Credit: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Before European settlement, forests covered nearly one billion acres of what is now the United States. Since the mid-1600's, about 300 million acres of forest have been cleared, primarily for agriculture during the 19th century. Today about one-third of the nation is forested. While total forest area has been relatively stable for the last 100 years (currently about 747 million acres),

Please , when making statements on such an emotive issue , At least make sure that the "facts" you quote are more than bar room bulls**t

vacpress,

One of the nice things about this place is that the people who come here have something very important in common: they all do something with themselves and they have all made something of themselves. And they generously give the benefit of their experience to other people who are on the same path. Positively delightful!

That said, forests are renewable resources, and old growth forests don't support anywhere near the diversity and quantity of wildlife that younger forests do. At least that's true in the temperate zone, where we live. Harvesting wood for lumber and paper is better than letting the timber stand until it burns.

Was that power plant there when you moved into your neighborhood?

--97T--

Thanks for the welcome!:cheers: I enjoy a good discussion, I'm not looking to change anyone's mind especially in a political thread but I do like to point out a different point of view for some to make their own decision

Here's .pdf file if you want to take the time to read. Though everything you read is always up to your own interpretation. Our forest population has been pretty much stable since the 1907. This file has plenty of charts and you should be able to determine that we are in no near shortage of forests or trees. It will show tree removal, new plantation etc etc

I can point out to my neighborhood for example. In the early 1900's my area was a wasteland and it wasn't until around 1920 or so when a Mr. Jerabek imported the Eucylptus trees from Australia and planted them for a major land owner at the time (The Scripps Family) in hopes of making railroad ties. That fell thru due to the structure of the tree but now we are practically forested with them all over San Diego from the sea tot he mountains.

This is far off topic but bottom line were not running out of shade anytime soon.

Anyway I hope to learn and share experiences with CNC and other tooling when I can.

...Did you know that there are more trees in the US than there ever was when the Euro's arrived?...

Your linked file doesn't seem to back up your assertion. In the system of math I use 423 million is larger than 302 million. Or are you claiming there are now more trees per hectare?

[I]Land and Forest Area

It is estimated that—at the beginning of European settlement—
in 1630 the area of forest land that would become
the United States was 423 million hectares or about 46
percent of the total land area. By 1907, the area of forest
land had declined to an estimated 307 million hectares or
34 percent of the total land area. Forest area has been relatively
stable since 1907. In 1997, 302 million hectares—
or 33 percent of the total land area of the United States—
was in forest land. Today’s forest land area amounts to
about 70 percent of the area that was forested in 1630.
Since 1630, about 120 million hectares of forest land
have been converted to other uses—mainly agricultural.
More than 75 percent of the net conversion to other uses
occurred in the 19th century.

niner,

Yeah. The power plant was there. It has been there for decades, of course. They are not quite misguded enough to put up coal burning powerplants 3 miles from the Chicago lakefront.. at least not anymore.. The problem is total lack of transparency about emissions, probably illegal emissions(they are constantly 'under investigation', spending money on lobbiests instead of just changing business practices.. that sort of thing0.

these power utilites are like the mafia. at best. they use their power to secure their position. it is 'all business' to them, no matter how literaly dirty the deeds.

The issue to me is still as follows:
a)these power plants are not as clean as is technologically possible
b)the profits these companies report PROVE they could afford a cleaner power generation method
c)the previous method of control, 'clean air act', had allready set mandates for this plant to install and use scrubbers, among other emission reducing technology
d)the emissions credit system allows this plant to literally poison the citizens, and totally destroyed the CAA, which really did represent decades of effort to come to an agreement between industry and environmental concerns
e)global warming, real or not, is not the issue, the right to pollute and profit from this pollution is the issue
f)my god i dont really know what i am talking about, but i know that my point of view is not complete rubbish


i am not anti capitalism or anything like that. clearly i am a capitalistic entrepeneur myself. i love capitalism.

what i hate is the way i have to fight uphill to get any sort of business grants, tax breaks, anything at all... anything..

meanwhile these huge corporations can complain about not making enough $$ becuase of environmental laws.. they make so much $. it is heartbreaking. it is not fair. and if you would prefer to ignore the inequity or accept it, instead of being indignant, your morals are very questionable, and you are a unpaid collaborater with the energy producers...

i am not really a bleeding heart either. but i want people to have help when they need it. i think humans have alot of different backgrounds, and a reasonable society will help take care of those who need it. sort of like bailing your drunk son or daughter or friend out of jail even though you dont want to!

-R

vacpress,

One of the nice things about this place is that the people who come here have something very important in common: they all do something with themselves and they have all made something of themselves. And they generously give the benefit of their experience to other people who are on the same path. Positively delightful!

That said, forests are renewable resources, and old growth forests don't support anywhere near the diversity and quantity of wildlife that younger forests do. At least that's true in the temperate zone, where we live. Harvesting wood for lumber and paper is better than letting the timber stand until it burns.

Was that power plant there when you moved into your neighborhood?

--97T--

vacpress,

On the western shore of a big lake is an ideal place to put a power plant, if you want unlimited cooling water and no neighbors downwind of you.

But anyway -- you question my morality and say you are a capitalist.

Yet you;

Claim the right to insist on the cleanest technology possible, without any mention of whether it is cost effective or reasonable (who has the right to regulate your business without justification?),

Claim that profits prove they aren't spending enough (is the same true of your business if it makes any money?), and

You think you are entitled to be paid other people's money through the legalized thievery of the government gun, or at least you should get a tax break which others won't get. Which uses the law to punish someone else so that you can be favored, giving you a competitive advantage over those who refuse to ask for it. Asking for either puts you squarely in the same league as that power company, as far as morality goes.

Technically, capitalism is voluntary trade between individuals or companies without coercion from the state. And fascism is a system that keeps some of the appearance of capitalism, such as title to ownership and whatever profits are left, but where government sets the terms, provides protection from competitors, dictates the direction and policies, and rakes the lion's share of the money out 'before profits'. One of their favorite little tricks is to pick favorite companies and grant them special status (but oh, the price to be paid back!). It ends up being like-minded people in government and business. I'll leave it up to you do figure out what kind of people they are.

Technically, the way the power company operates is fascist, not capitalist.

But it's the system we inherited. They are a quasi-governmental bureaucracy with a government-enforced monopoly that serves as a money machine for everyone from the lifetime employees to the politicians that run interference for them. On the other hand, at least the bloated obscenity of a business provides us with almost-free, reliable power. Fight to raise their costs, and you are fighting to raise the cost of everything, not just your heat and light bill. If you are successful at raising their cost of doing business, it pays off in higher prices, less business, fewer jobs, a lower standard of living for everybody. The government knows it, and this sets the limit for how badly they will milk it. They're running a big business and skimming money, power, and influence out of it for all it can yield. They are all swelled up with self-importance and an air of respectability. They don't want any pesky neighbors causing a stink in the papers and courts. (Which is where to take the fight if you want to get to them.)

I'd prefer to see an open market for power, where companies are responsible to neighbors directly. So if a company wanted to sell power, it would be cheaper to produce it cleanly than to buy out miles of buffer zone or pay damages. But with the system set up as it is, we will never see that. They can't even build nuclear power plants because of the obstacles that are put there by the fascist propaganda machine.

If you are successful at getting more government control over their operations, limiting their profits to some arbitrary maximum, making them spend everything they have on whatever technology, and so on - since they are married anyway, they will get it all back from you, and more. And the government will be happy to exercise their expanded powers over your business while they are at it. The powers you are willing to grant them will affect everyone else, and lower their standard of living. In the beginning, you might get some benefit at everyone else's expense. In the end, you'll end up not being able to enjoy that benefit. Given enough power, money, and influence from the entrenched operation, they might even decide that it's cheaper to condemn your neighborhood and raze it than it would be to build a nice, clean, nuclear power plant. Problem solved, in their view.

I'm firmly against the marriage between state and businesses that buy favors and suck up corporate welfare and protection. Which one of us is really a collaborator?

A local pilot took advantage of a very low price to buy a piece of land directly off the end of the runway at my favorite airport. He built a house right under the flight path of all the traffic on the main runway that gets used when the prevailing wind is blowing. He knows a plane could crash into his house. His dishes and windows rattle whenever someone takes off towards the east. He knows that airplanes burn leaded gasoline and drip oil. But he can walk across the street to get to his airplane hangar. He saved a bundle because the parcel wasn't worth much, being at the end of the runway. I just hope he never sells it to a non-pilot.

--97T--

niner,


what i hate is the way i have to fight uphill to get any sort of business grants, tax breaks, anything at all... anything..



We finally find what your real motive is.

We finally find what your real motive is.

oh. on the contrary. i have been pro-underdog, anti-establishment, in a way, since i was about 5 years old... this isnt because i want business grants, etc.. that was just another example of how WE are actively undermined by these huge corporate entities that are forced upon us.


i am actually slightly offended, at least as offended as i can be on a webboard.. clearly greed isnt my motive. i personally am willing to pay the same $7/gallon they pay for gasoline in sweden, if we can have 75% of sweden's style.

OK?

...this isnt because i want business grants, etc.. that was just another example of how WE are actively undermined by these huge corporate entities that are forced upon us.... clearly greed isnt my motive. i personally am willing to pay the same $7/gallon they pay for gasoline in sweden, if we can have 75% of sweden's style...OK?

Oh don't be silly. First; these huge corporate entities, and smaller ones down to your garage operations with employees, are what provide US citizens with a life style that attains at least 75% of Sweden's. Yes there are disparities, there are disparities everywhere. Maybe the disparities in the US are greater in absolute and relative difference than some other countries; you can always solve that...Cuba did a long time ago by grinding nearly everyone down to the same low level.

I live and pay my taxes in a different country but I have nothing but contempt for people who whine because they cannot get government handouts to subsidize their business; about the same amount of contempt I have for the ones who get the handouts. Over the years I have created hundreds of people-years of employment and my company has paid millions in taxes. I started with no capital and a $7500 loan from my father-in-law which I paid off within six weeks. I have never borrowed money since and I have never had a government handout. I know own a successful business worth several million and I got here by busting a gut working 7 day 90 to 100 hour weeks for around 12 years. I did not sit around whining about the 'system' oppressing me.

Not to ignore you Geof I haven't had the time to research my original .pdf file (It's been 7+ years since I've seen the doc, sorry) the forest/tree population had to do with o2 producing (not the usual pine trees) trees and harvest agriculture type population that I've been searching for...

I'm just super busy with work and this topic took a huge offramp right off the freeway as it is (Gore>Trees>Energy Plants>Socialism :) ). But I think the .pdf file should explain enough that were in no shortage of losing our tree life :)

Anyway I'm done with this thread and look forward to the main body of this forum, which is the reason why I joined.

Cheers!

i am not whining about anything. your business sucess is admirable and the sort of things i like to hear about.

my concern abotu business grants, etc. is actually mostly based on watching my father's small business troubles with getting support from our government, and then also watching the huge tax breaks that these large companies get. he has never gotten any sort of tax breaks beyond very meagre small business incentive stuff.

i need to stop talking about this issue in this forum. you people are not being fair. i say one little thing, 'it is heartbreaking how these large companies get so much assistance and smaller entities(myself included) have almost no support'

geof, for such a smart guy, you sure are narrow minded on this issue; and your reading of what other people are saying. i suppose i have helped ratchet the rhetoric up to a certain level here, but still.

and in sweden, i dont mean they all have 'the good life', on the contrary, i mean they have a progressive and well meaning government that helps support it's citizens, even if it is only 10-15 million of them. sweden aside, the point was that here the energy companies are treated with financial breaks that do not make sense from a global point of view. these financial breaks seem to trickle down to the consumer in the form of lower fuel costs, but i am skeptical about the long term results of this inequity.

how can fuel cost 3x more in europe than here, and that works out economically in the long run. nothing is free, i thought?



Oh don't be silly. First; these huge corporate entities, and smaller ones down to your garage operations with employees, are what provide US citizens with a life style that attains at least 75% of Sweden's. Yes there are disparities, there are disparities everywhere. Maybe the disparities in the US are greater in absolute and relative difference than some other countries; you can always solve that...Cuba did a long time ago by grinding nearly everyone down to the same low level.

I live and pay my taxes in a different country but I have nothing but contempt for people who whine because they cannot get government handouts to subsidize their business; about the same amount of contempt I have for the ones who get the handouts. Over the years I have created hundreds of people-years of employment and my company has paid millions in taxes. I started with no capital and a $7500 loan from my father-in-law which I paid off within six weeks. I have never borrowed money since and I have never had a government handout. I know own a successful business worth several million and I got here by busting a gut working 7 day 90 to 100 hour weeks for around 12 years. I did not sit around whining about the 'system' oppressing me.

it is sort of like how my friend who makes 200,000 a year pays far less taxes than me, % wise, even with his higher income bracket, because he can afford to use financial services that help him manipulate the tax system in ways a less afluent individual cannot.. such as me.. i put every last $ into my art, design, music and small business goals... this amounts to less than $50,000. much less every year except the last.

in germany, and lots of places in europe, many\most people involved in what i am get a portion of their equipment and facilities paid for. this is an example of government subsidy actually helping individuals.. as opposed to helping oil companies and their own reelections..

i can clearly see that i am at the bottom of a large hill of industrialized-thought on this forum. i am actually quite moderate compared to environmental protesters, etc., yet i feel like i am demanding we abandom democracy or something.

in my oppinion democracy does not mean tax breaks for the most secure and profitable industries. NO. that is NOT democracy. if you fail to see that point, then you fail to understand the concept of human decency.

:eek: I'm am shocked by the ignorance of some of the statements I'm reading. Do you teach your kids this drivel?

Let me try to clear some things up.....

But keep in mind, one volcano eruption is more pollutants than man has done in his entire short blink of an eye life time.

There's no denying that volcanoes release plenty of bad stuff. However their main pollutant is sulfur dioxide. This is a nasty chemical which can cause smog, and acid rain. However it has little to do with GLOBAL WARMING which is a far greater threat than either of the later. The main cause of global warming is C02 which traps the suns energy in the atmosphere and leads to increased temperatures. It really is a rather simple concept.

Man made C02 far exceeds the amount created by volcanoes! Do you honestly think if ONE volcano eruption damaged the environment more than humans EVER have there would even be this debate?

china is the biggest destroyer of the environment......we are mostly alone in the war to save the environment

Guess what, the US is by far the biggest producer of CO2 emissions. It's a fact, look it up. China is no saint but at least they are taking some steps to do their part. Their vehicle emissions standards are better than ours and they've signed the Kyoto treaty with just about every other industrialized county in the world (not us). They along with the European Union have pledge to create 10%+ of their energy from renewable resources by 2010. The US has made no such proposals. So your right we're alone but I don't think it has much to do with saving the environment.

Did you know that there are more trees in the US than there ever was when the Euro's arrived?

HAHAHAHA!!!!! That's hilarious. Hey I heard you can buy land on the moon!!

You guys this is a very serious issue. Please do a little more research on your own before spreading baseless propaganda. Thanks :cheers:

Let me try to clear some things up.....

........ The main cause of global warming is C02 which traps the suns energy in the atmosphere and leads to increased temperatures. It really is a rather simple concept.
Please do a little more research on your own before spreading baseless propaganda.

You might consider doing a little more research before making statements without sound scientific basis. You're not really teaching YOUR kids that drivel, are you???

lolz, theory theory theory.

Some peeps eat everything they are fed :)


CO2 to feed the trees :)

vacpress,

I can understand the reason Geof responded as he did. After being one of the payers for awhile, you begin to see the inequity and the cruelty of the system. The system punishes those who produce, and punishes them more if they are more successful. It rewards those who engage in legal bribery and other chicanery. It subsidizes laziness and failure. I've done the same thing he did -- I paid my own taxes, my business taxes, and all of the taxes for my employees, millions of dollars of it. The things I produced help make labor saving devices for humans at a price they can afford. Products that are sold to willing buyers with no guns involved, that enhance their standard of living.

More taxes, more handouts, more nanny socialist government, and a squeeze on energy are driving industry out of the area where I live. It isn't theory, it's happening. The auto companies are maneuvering to remove capital from the country preparatory to declaring bankruptcy. They are mindful that Washington is against them on the most fundamental level. Their products, their size, the processes used to make their product, all have been declared to be evil and now the political machine has announced that it is going to punish them some more. There isn't anything left to squeeze, the cash is gone, the profits are history, and in order to survive they have to pull out of the U.S. The end game is on. They might survive or maybe not. The socialist democrats and their cousins the socialist republicans are going to win this battle. The result is permanently lost jobs, and the ripple effect of the destruction of this productive sector of the economy is already being felt, but it is nothing compared to what is on the way.

The real cruelty is that honorable men who risk their own future and everything they have as well as the jobs of their employees every week when payday approaches and the tax bill is due, are considered to be greedy capitalists, and any success in their endeavors is viewed with envy and hate by those who have never produced anything in their lives. The perverse travesty is that official policy reflects this envy codified into law. These are the men who build a business, employ others, and whose livelihoods and fortunes are plundered by the self-righteous. These are the men whose life savings get wiped out when their market is driven away. These are the men for whom it would be an unspeakable shame to ever think about asking for a handout from the parasites that are draining them. They couldn't consider themselves human if they encouraged more of the same treatment for other men of integrity by asking for a portion of the stolen loot.

All an honest businessman wants is to be left alone to deal with others without coercion.

"what i hate is the way i have to fight uphill to get any sort of business grants, tax breaks, anything at all... anything.."

Business grants and tax breaks are legalized corruption. To anyone who thinks money should be taken by force from others who legitimately earned it, in order to have their equipment and facilities paid for, I have a question: What is the moral difference between sending government agents to do it on your behalf, or sending some underworld thug to do it? Does having it be legal, and being in the majority make it a little more comfortable?

As someone at the wrong end of that gun, don't expect any sympathy from me when you complain that the government isn't giving you enough of what they confiscated from me.

The global warming and environ mental machine is an attempt to take legalized thuggery to a worldwide level. You are in good company. In the end, if they are successful, there won't be any loot to steal. People don't risk their fortunes and their sacred honor to build something and slave at it non-stop for years at the point of a gun. And the man with the gun is not the type to be able to do what the innovator does. Those he pushes around will do what they are told, but that's all.

--97T--

......People don't risk their fortunes and their sacred honor to build something and slave at it non-stop for years at the point of a gun. And the man with the gun is not the type to be able to do what the innovator does. Those he pushes around will do what they are told, but that's all.

--97T--

And the very people that want us to pay carbon credits are the same people that want us to relinquish our guns. They don't like pointing their guns at us only to have us point back. I'm specifically referring to Gore and his ilk, and liberal academia. As long as they have a gun to point at me, I want one I can point back. That way, the science will be balanced and the argument fair.

..... such as me.. i put every last $ into my art, design, music and small business goals... this amounts to less than $50,000. much less every year except the last.

in germany, and lots of places in europe, many\most people involved in what i am get a portion of their equipment and facilities paid for. this is an example of government subsidy actually helping individuals.. as opposed to helping oil companies and their own reelections...

I must apologise. I did not know you are an artist!!!!! Of course you are far more deserving of government largesse than me, a money grubbing capitalist pig, and a narrow minded one at that.

"in my oppinion democracy does not mean tax breaks for the most secure and profitable industries. NO. that is NOT democracy. if you fail to see that point, then you fail to understand the concept of human decency."

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -- Benjamin Franklin

"At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results, and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished, asked him directly: "Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" "A republic if you can keep it" responded Franklin."
From http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2000/cr020200.htm

--97T--

I must apologise. I did not know you are an artist!!!!! Of course you are far more deserving of government largesse than me, a money grubbing capitalist pig, and a narrow minded one at that.

actually, i probably am..

geof. why do you quote me out of context? this is misleading, and is a tactic that should be beneath you.

having given me nothing else to respond to in your witty 'slam-dunk' of a reply, i will let you consider that idea.

ive got a franklin quote i like.. everyone has seen it. at the very start of the current iraq war, someone paid for a huge billboard near downtown chicago that read:
'those who give up personal liberties for a temporary sense of personal safety deserve neither'.

this was of course being aimed at the 'patriot act', which is a law that was named after the popular movie, 'patriot games'(in case you didnt know that)

but i suppose you spooks probably like the patriot act..

i wish americans could remember political events as existing on a timeline, not rising out of the ether riding in little bubbles..

Straw man technique: in order avoid replying to the issues raised, instead set up a fake scenario and then masterfully slash it to pieces. All the better if it allows you to call your adversary a name.

I suppose maybe in all that information about how the environ mentalists are trying to destroy freedom, then if I didn't say that the patriot act is anti-freedom, and therefore I don't like it, I don't suppose anyone could infer that.

--97T The freeken SPOOK--

actually, i probably am..

geof. why do you quote me out of context? this is misleading, and is a tactic that should be beneath you.

having given me nothing else to respond to in your witty 'slam-dunk' of a reply, i will let you consider that idea.

I expected you would recognise irony and sarcasm.

Through my life I have met several people who consider themselves artists and think that due to this self-bestowed status they are somehow more deserving of support and are in some way superior to non-artists. My response to this is that it is bunkum.

Are your art activities intended to lead to a viable self-supporting business? If that is the case then get stuck in and work at it; you are no more deserving of support than any other budding businessperson. And you are not really any more valuable to society than any other budding businessperson.

Are your art activities pursued for your own satsifaction; i.e. a hobby? If that is the case why should you get support for your hobby? I have a hobby on which I spend a lot of money, should I get support?

And to go back to the context you are accusing me of quoting you out of. If you begrudge your friend the % tax rate he pays why don't you go and get a career or profession in which you can earn that kind of money and avail yourself of the same financial services?

Incidentally I quoted complete sentences, or at least I think they were complete your eschewing capitalization makes it difficult to tell. I hardly think what I did truly qualifies as 'quoting out of context' and considering the full context is available on the same page methinks you complain too much.

[QUOTE=vacpress;273239]actually, i probably am..QUOTE]


For the sake of discussion, can you ellaborate and qualify on the "how and why" you are more deserving specifically?

It would also be somewhat compelling to see the numbers you proposed to ask for and how that investment in your business offers multiple benefits to the community and ultimate potential returns to the general fund.

DC

simply... cultures and locales benefit from the indipendent arrtisitc output of the citizens living there.

case in point: oak park, il would be nothing without hemmingway and\or frank lloyd wright. people still goto rome to see the uffizi, not nescisarily eat the pizza.

in order to continue a rich cultural heritage, sometimes we help support the infrastructure that leads to these 'treasures'. the fact that i have to explain this probably means you will all question the value of these 'potential treasures'.

that is your right. i wouldnt try and convince you of this. you guys work hard and dont appreciate taxes. i can see that.. i can understand some of the mentality behind your points of view..

I am extremely grateful my background affords me a different POV and position...

I rarely apply for any state funding\etc. In the past the EU has actually given me the one grant I have been able to work under.

Irony, really.

vacpress you call me narrow minded and accuse me of quoting out of context and then come out with some condescending drivel about contributing to a rich cultural heritage which I won't understand. You don't have the foggiest idea what my business does, or what cultural heritage I may choose to appreciate or understand. In short you simply confirmed my sarcastic appraisal of your attitude in an earlier post.

Since I do photography as an occasionally paying hobby...I'd like you all to buy my artistic stuff, whether you like it or not.

In that way I can contribute to our rich heritage. Like Frank Lloyd W. and many others who've gotten rich doing their 'art', I'd like to get rich doing mine.

I write poems too, and you'll find them attractively priced at $1.50/word (please add $.15/word for 14pt or larger font sizes).

Won't you all agree that we've got to stop buying art just because we like it, a classic form of capitalism? It only fosters people striving to improve the quality of their work, finding markets, and working hard to establish marketing and distribution channels which we all know should be only in the realm of people who produce tangible and useful products.

Geof, you'll agree, won't you, that people who need your product nickle and dime you on the price? And you've noticed that people who WANT a product will throw their wallet at you to get it?

Artists want you to WANT their product, so you should throw your wallet at them....and me too!

...Geof, you'll agree, won't you, that people who need your product nickle and dime you on the price? And you've noticed that people who WANT a product will throw their wallet at you to get it?

Artists want you to WANT their product, so you should throw your wallet at them....and me too!

A few years ago I was talking to a fellow with a very well equipped local shop who specializes in not specializing. He has the equipment to do almost anything but never quotes on production jobs or gives quotes. I was questioning him about the viability of this business approach and his reply was almost word for word how you phrase it; he makes things people want.

So after talking to him I went and bought a Haas Gantry Router, GR510, with all the bells and whistles to indulge in what I hope will be my retirement hobby. Check out this thread;

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=273829#post273829

As I mention there my goal is to create latge (machine) chased copper murals which will probably in many cases be based on some of the phtotgraphs I have taken on my travels.

Just think in a few years I will be an artist and I can look down my nose at you philistines.

Just look at all the great art we get from government funding.

<cough>

Art gets filtered exactly the same way as science does when it is funded by committees who spend money that was confiscated from honest people. The ones who do the best job of sucking up and echoing the fashionable issues of the day are the ones who get the funding. If people want to buy disgusting abominations with their own money, that is fine. When it is public money, the piece must be a disgusting abomination. That way, they can all sniff with superiority that it's not their fault that you can't understand and appreciate the deeper social significance of symbolizing the plight of the _________. And that's why it must be funded with expropriated money: the ignorant masses will never appreciate fine art abominations.

Anyone with integrity would not accept a penny that was unearned, especially if it was taken from someone who disagrees with that use for his money.

--97T--

...Anyone with integrity would not accept a penny that was unearned, especially if it was taken from someone who disagrees with that use for his money.

--97T--

Philistine.

'yawn, conservatives'.

some of the irony here is that you guys of all people would be intrigued by the things i work on..

go back to guarding your land with your guns, or whatever you guys are into. im done with these amusing conversations... it has stopped being amusing...not because you have exposed me as 'the low, hypocrate i am', or whatever, but because politics are for a**holes to begin with..

that is why i spend my time working on creating as much as i can, be it music, art, feces, or electromechanical devices. when there is some funding available to help me, i am happy to take advantage of it...

the end. i will not take part in any more global warming or any other such conversations.

oh, you guys. :)

I am sure the people here would be more intrigued if you found someone to fund or purchase it in the private sector as a real thriving business entity instead of seeking tax deductions and cult-ural contributions from Governments to support your creativity that essentially produces nothing viably sellable, jobs or services people need.


My senses tell me you are a conservative when it comes to your own money, but would like the opportunity to liberally waste someone elses.

A local news story for you:

Here in Seattle, an openly gay lawyer willed the art museum 1 million dollars. They get to claim it with one stipulation. There must be a statue in his name including a full size naked man. The first proposal is from a dear friend of the deceased whom is an artist/sculptor. The naked man may be reaching out to a young boy reaching back, in a fountain who is up to his waste in water. While their hands never touch, the message it sends is very questionable given his proclivities and its "potential treasure" to the community. I doubt it will be appreciated as art simulating pedophilia in a Seattle city park. I hope the museum wouldn't sell its morals and at minimum remove the young boys image from the scene.

DC

vacpress,

You have to know what a conservative is before you call someone that name. Why don't you post pictures of some of your feces art on your website? If you get good enough at it, maybe you can use it to help spread the global warning message.

On the other hand, you could man up and go out and just steal the money yourself.

--The Spook Conservative--

I'm only a Philistine on my days off. In downtown Detroit, we have a real nice black fist for artwork to celebrate blackness of the power elite, and a 60 foot tall replica transmission gear made to celebrate the labor movement. In keeping with the values it reflects, the bore is off center and it is cracked at the top. And to demonstrate to the public that the city overlords are as clueless as anyone else when it comes to publicly funded art, and because image is everything (got to call attention away from the murder rate), for the superbowl they spent millions on a bridge located on the freeway between the airport and downtown. The bridge spans nothing, supports nothing, has no function, and doesn't even copy beautiful bridges of the past. It's just an ugly mess of steel apparently designed by some idiot to look sort of like a bridge. It does serve a purpose, though; it is a reminder to any visitors to the area not to trust the pigs who feed at the tax money trough. There are a lot of smaller 'sculptures' about, apparently salvaged from the scrap piles of the local community college welding classes. In publicly funded art, it must be an incomprehensible mess, otherwise it won't get funded. Making art that is about something is considered old fashioned. Besides, it's too embarrassing to those without skill. The good artists make their own money.

--97T--

The Bridge Abomination:
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2006/02/political-requirements-of-bridge-met.html

The Black Power Abomination:
http://www.robertgraham-artist.com/civic_monuments/joe_louis.html
"Making a statue of a fighter would have been a limited image of Joe Louis," said Robert Graham, the sculptor". A couple of painters have some white paint left over from a job, go out for a few beers, and brew up a little artwork on their own, which was not considered funny:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/2004-05-14-louis-statue_x.htm

The 'Scrap Part' Abomination:
http://detroit1701.org/American%20Labor%20Movement%20Statue.html

97T no matter what you say it is art, by definition. But, Philistine that you are, you will demand an explanation. One definition of art, or for art, is that it is something, a creation, that evokes an emotional response. Judging from your post these objects qualify; disgust is an emotional response.

...Interesting to note that Philistine is generally taken to mean someone who doesn't take any interest in art, and the original Philistines are Palestinians......

...Interesting to note that Philistine is generally taken to mean someone who doesn't take any interest in art, and the original Philistines are Palestinians......

Yes, what is the etymology of the word? The only thing that comes to mind quickly without doing any searching is that it might be related to the library at Alexandria.

EDIT: Actually isn't Philistine a bit stronger than lack of interest. I think used by an "Artist" it is intended as an insult by implying that the person so addressed is too ignorant to understand "Art". I am not an artist so the meaning I use, which I think is generally accepted, is the person addressed has something of a sense of contempt for the art or artist. Anyway I will humbly apologise if I have insulted anyone by using the term and will promise to try and stop being a smart ass for at least the next ten minutes.

so like.. do you 3 guys actually do or build anything that you talk about here?

as for 'feces art', i only wish my work was that 'accessible'. you guys would totally dig my stuff. let me describe the 'painting' i am currently doing. this is one of many 'pieces'. the reason i am keen on funding is that these are very expensive. the special glow paint used in the following cost me almost $400.

picture a 6x8" blank canvas on a wall in a dim corner of a gallery. suddenly glowing lines begin to appear behind a moving point of light. the slight sound of gears and electromechanics can be heard... ... as the image completes drawing, the first few lines have begun to fade...

mechanism: glow-paint coated translucent membrane stretched across a frame containing an x,y mechanism using a white LED and lense as a 'light scribe'.

i dont have my 'fine art' work on any site right now. i am waiting for it to be documented by the community at large.

www.robertguyser.com/ublos.JPG
www.robertguyser.com/ublos.MOV

Sorry for the large file sizes.

;)

Just how I've enjoyed reading this thread! You know what guys, regardless of who's right and who's wrong, Vacpress runs rings around the lot of you in the way he composes his posts. He can make a statement and is happy to have it challenged by others rather than getting all edgy like Geoff and others do.
Vacpress tells us he's an artist and suddenly we get gay sculpture comments. w.t.f.! Art covers lots more things than painting and sculptures. (I, by the way, am not an artist) All I can say is thank goodness there are still people who's primary motivation to do the things they do isn't money. Oh and one more thing, due to his travelling he is open minded enough to see that some (lots of) things in the US are good and some (lots of) things stink, the same as many other places, hence his comment about Sweden. What, are you going to start calling him Anti-American next?

No, not me.

All I can say is thank goodness there are still people who's primary motivation to do the things they do isn't money.

LOL!!! :)
Weren't we just talking about someone wanting gov't grants to do art??

..... What, are you going to start calling him Anti-American next?

Wrong thread you should search around for that.

Fizzywhatsit beat me in responding to the part about money. If it was not for us who do make money and pay taxes there would not be the money available to give grants to people who do not do things for money. If you can follow that convoluted logic; I am sorry I am only a semi-literate money grubbing capitalist.

Yer, maybe I'm getting too wound up in all of this. Sorry Geoff, I just jumped at an earlier statement of yours when in fact after reading a few of your posts elsewhere I realised that I shouldn't have. cheers. I'm still convinced that these types of threads don't belong in cnczone.

Yes, Geof, I didn't claim it wasn't art.

Somehow I get the feeling that the work is intended to evoke a different reaction in the viewer. Confusion, bewilderment. If it is incomprehensible, then the aficionados are all the more likely to look around them, and echo the reactions of those whom they think understand it, eager to be seen agreeing with the consensus view, so that everyone knows how artsy-fartsy they are. When they are all in the same boat and nobody understands it, it is deeply profound. This is much the same way the whole global warming campaign works.

By the way, I'm not from that part of the world. Heh.

Anyway, this is all way off topic.

I'm not disturbed if someone 'runs rings around me' by ignoring facts, ignoring logical contradictions in their arguments when pointed out to them, calling people names and making unsupported assertions. Those are the exact tactics of the global warming True Believers. I don't expect to persuade them, but if anyone else happens to read along, at least they will be able to see that just as with any other religion, in order to believe it you must suspend your reasoning faculty.

--97T--

...Anyway, this is all way off topic.

I'm not disturbed if someone 'runs rings around me' by ignoring facts, ignoring logical contradictions in their arguments when pointed out to them, calling people names and making unsupported assertions. Those are the exact tactics of the global warming True Believers. I don't expect to persuade them, but if anyone else happens to read along, at least they will be able to see that just as with any other religion, in order to believe it you must suspend your reasoning faculty.

--97T--

Only boring people stay on topic :) .

I call it invoking "The Emperor Has No Clothes" syndrome.

And mighty fine clothes they are!

"And mighty fine clothes they are!"

-and thank heavens the Chinese do make such good clothes for him! :)

Hey TurboME:

Actually, I believe the theory that there are more trees today than before the first Europeans arrived is actually true. Note I said theory. And, to me it makes logical sense.

Read: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/PROGRAMS/science/fire-prm.html

You might also read a paper by Johnson 1995, "Changes in Southwestern Forests", sorry it's not availabe on the net, you have to ask for it from the forest service.

It's too bad that the original statement didn't come with a link to reference the claim, but to slam someone without proof is several orders of magnitude more reprehensible. Exactly what part of the moon does your acreage lie?

And to be clear the guy said more trees, not more acres of trees.

Edit, found another source of the more trees theory:
Gale Norton planted this seed: http://www.fws.gov/news/speeches/remarksgalenorton121503.htm

I my continuing effort to pull the wool from over your eyes.

A nice story about Gore's Family, and it's damage to the environment: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17685

For those of you that want to see Gore's House in Belle Meade Tenn: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=312+Lynnwood+Blvd,+Belle+Meade,+Davidson,+Tennessee+37205,+United+States&ie=UTF8&sll=36.106347,-86.854305&sspn=0.021219,0.034332&om=1&z=19&ll=36.11382,-86.847345&spn=0.001638,0.003562&t=h&iwloc=addr

And, Gore's Farm: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=312+Lynnwood+Blvd,+Belle+Meade,+Davidson,+Tennessee+37205,+United+States&ie=UTF8&sll=36.106347,-86.854305&sspn=0.021219,0.034332&om=1&z=14&ll=36.224196,-85.8918&spn=0.052346,0.113983&t=h

Oh wait, why doesn't google have better resolution of this area, maybe because there's a huge mine tailing out on the back of the property, and it looks bad. But, why would Google care, maybe because Gore is on the board of directors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore

New Environmentalism is mostly a religion. And, what are religions best known for starting?

The most convenient lie, as originally posted is
PROFIT WITHOUT INVESTMENT

We've (maybe) read about carbon cap and trade emissions and how utilities will be able to sell them to each other.
(insert loud voluminous bovine methane flatulence here, if not pc think of it as a cow fart)

Now what bugs me is: Did they buy these carbon credits? They did not is the correct answer. They were created from foofoo juice! It is a fiat carbon tax in that consumers will pay increased rates from something the utility never bought or invested in at the start.
It seems like a defacto rate increase without base generation increase or investment in efficiency.

Basically the consumer is buying carbon based emissions power granted to utilities, if you see what I'm getting at, lobbied for and not purchased. By shutting down older less efficient utilization facilities, utilities will have enormous windfall profits from (you guessed it)
carbon based hot air(nuts)

.... i personally am willing to pay the same $7/gallon they pay for gasoline in sweden, if we can have 75% of sweden's style.

OK?

Vacpress,

I am happy that you can afford $7/gal for gas. What about those at the bottom of the food chain than would fold because of the extra cost? Should they just go on welfare?

I think there had better be a darn good reason before they tax the heck out of gas in the US. Sorry, global warming is not a convincing reason. ENRON petitioned for ratification of the Kyoto protocol, so who would be enriched by new gas taxes at our expense; to achieve exactly what?

You complain about attitudes towards pollution: Just because some of us don’t consider carbon dioxide pollution does not mean we don’t care about real pollutants;
such as CO, SO2, NOX & VOCs etc.

CO2 is a pollutant...when it is a pollutant. So far, it remains to be seen whether it is.

As to living in a Swedish lifestyle, you'll be paying Swedish taxes...currently at about the 48% bracket.

I don't have a problem with $7/gal...I have a problem with the oil companies making record profits (which in a supply and demand economy should be expected) when they get taxpayer subsidies....and the amount of taxes from each gallon being excessive.

We have here in Reno some of the highest gas prices in the country....without the fine quality roads to show for the high taxes we pay. Proof that higher gas taxes DO NOT equate to a) a cleaner environment or b) better roads or transportation.

Now if CO2 can be branded as a pollutant, and widely accepted as such, then by your very act of breathing you have assisted in the rebirth of the concept of Original Sin.

Now if we can only do something about the huge quantity of unregulated DiHydrogen Monoxide being carelessly released into our precious waterways.

--97T--

Labeling CO2 as a pollutant must imply ownership, and that leads us down a nasty slippery slope...

I have to pay you for releasing 'too much'....and then I have to pay you for the CO2 you release that feeds my crops?

this turned out to be much longer than I thought it would, but...
that's what high-speed is for.

From post #5: in order to make $$ for their very wealthy owners and boardmembers and large shareholders
Well, they're not in business to lose money for their owners, boardmembers, and shareholders.
**********
From post #17: i would call it machivellian, but really it is just greedy. i suppose this guy would fancy himself machivellian if he was inclined to think in such terms.
Why is it that folks on what appears to be your side tend to resort to demeaning name calling?
**********
From post # 30: it is not fair
Fair?
Who promised you fair?
I want some too; it's only fair.
**********
From post #37: in germany, and lots of places in europe, many\most people involved in what i am get a portion of their equipment and facilities paid for.
So move there.
Not saying "America, love it or leave it" but if you're so unhappy with "here" and "there" is so good, go.
**********
From post #38: The main cause of global warming is C02 which traps the suns energy in the atmosphere and leads to increased temperatures.
This is, at best, a very shaky hypothesis.
**********
From post #50: hemmingway and\or frank lloyd wright
How much do you suppose they got from the government for being "artists"?
**********
From post #56: go back to guarding your land with your guns
What does gun ownership have to do with anything in this thread?
Perhaps because folks that look at things from the angle you seem to tend to look at gun owners as less than cultured and intelligent?
Not unlike your view of "non-artists".
**********
From post #63: Vacpress runs rings around the lot of you in the way he composes his posts
Really?
I don't see it.
I see him throwing out statements to be challenged but I don't see him countering those challenges.
I see him pretty much just throwing out anti-establishment talking points.
I see him being condescending to those of unlike mind.
**********
From post #75: I am happy that you can afford $7/gal for gas. What about those at the bottom of the food chain than would fold because of the extra cost? Should they just go on welfare?
Of course not.
See, the reason for $7/gal gas will be taxes.
What we'll do is use those taxes to create a fund to hand out money to people so they can buy that $7/gas and pay the tax to sustain the fund.
Easy.

**********
See post #62
Actually, that does sound kind of cool.
Post a vid when you get it done.

Is Global Warming really nothing more than Global Equalization?

Socialism. hmmm.