Last week while surfing through eBay, I stumbled across a used 8-station turret like the ones on a Hardinge Chucker! Immidiately I placed a bid and slapped a massive MAX bid on top of that to ensure I would win this little gem! And I did! :)

It arrived today, and when I opend the box it looked perfect! Upon a more serious examination, I saw that the previous owner had taken a 2" diameter pnumatic sanding disk and pollished all the external surfaces to make it nice and shiny!

Well, that proceduer had distroyed all the precision surfaces, so I disassembed the turret, and proceeded to remachine all the parts to restore it's precision! The octagonal turret fit nicely in my 3-jaw chuck, and with a dial indicator through the center hole I was able to dial in the precision surface on the inside! Then I took a .005" face cut ant now it looks perfect! The micrometer shows a .0003" out of parallel condition.

The overall quality is fantastic, as every part is chrome plated and ground and heat treated! The underside of the cast iron turret and it's mating part is also Chrome plated and ground! This turret has a pneumatic valve to relax the turret for manual indexing in either direction!

All I need to get is a few new rubber o-rings!

The base plate is also cast iron, chrome plated on the top side and heavily sanded by the previous owner, resulting in a tapered surface of .006" So I put it in my mill, and took a skim cut across the butchered surface!

Total cost with shipping was: $145.67 :)

Next I removed the compound from my lathe's cross slide, to see how this turret would fit! The cross slide has a round t-slot groove, with a steel boss protruding in the center. The is proving to make this a little complicated! Fortunately, the turret is best located in the center of the cross slide, and that is far enough away from the boss to eliminate any conflict with the internal air ports!

I looked at it closly for several minutes, thinking how an adapter plate can be made to fit between the cross slide and the base of the turret!

The other option is to replace the exsisting base plate with one that is customized to fit on top of my lathe's cross slide! A nice cast iron plate would do the job just fine!

Tonight I'll play around with my CAD program to see what size plate to order!

Does anyone know what the distance from the spindle center to the top of the turret is on a hardinge chucker? I would like to make mine standard, so I can use all the pre-existing tooling instead of having to make my own!

to be continued . . . . .

Nice score on the turret, it funny what people will do to things. Sanding a surface like that just so it looks good for there pics. Oh well, atleast it was fixable, and the price was right to.

Should make things a little quicker for you when you go making those batches of little goodies I have seen you post about.


Is that turret made to switch with air, or does the air just lock it in place & you turn it manually after unlocking?

I cant help you with the measurments you need, but your right, a little pre planing on the setup will make things a bit easier & cheaper if it works out to whats already out there.


Just wandering, what kinda lathe is your? Its not CNC is it?


Jess

No, the AIR just locks it down, a really slick design too!
As for the measurement, I remembered way back when I ran a Hardinge Chucker, we used to place 3/8" tool bits right on the top of the turret, and they were centered perfectly! And by flipping the tool bits upside down, you can measure the distance from the tip as it gets ground back, and add little shims to correct the center line! (that's an old memory too! 1975 !!)

I have entered most of my data into the CAD, and it looks like a 2 1/2 x 6 x 12 piece of cast iron is what I need! I can't wait to use it, as I have so many little parts to make out of 303-SS and bronze!

The only problem is when I made my carrage stop, it has 5 positions, NOT 8 like the turret! It looks like a replacement part for the stop is inorder too!

My lathe is a 13x40 geared head Gap Bed lathe, made by Birmingham!

Widgit

I tracked that on ebay. Really good price. I've only seen a couple of them before.
I also wondered how to mount one. I figured I'd just mill off the compound boss. If the unit is mounted mid cross slide, how will you set tools for turning? Looks like you'd only be set up for face and drill operations.

Actually it's a pain to mount, as the exsisting compound has a post to mount on! I will be making a plate which straddles the top of the carrage, and fits over the boss. Then I'll add a few SHCS to fasten it to the carrage.

Most turret lathes use long solid tool holders to turn long diameters, but after 5 or 6 inches they are not very accurate and the part requires a support center!

The turret will be an accessory, and with a few screws is ready to go!

I have been wanting a turret lathe, as I've been running off lots of 50 pcs of little parts, and the Quick change tools I use have not been very efficient!

It seemed to be more economical to make a turret lathe than to buy one!
I hope I don't eat my words!!

Widgit

This morning I called Speedy Metals (http://speedymetals.com/) 1-888-744-4140 and ordered one piece of cast iron for the adapter base plate!

A 12 1/4 x 6 1/4 x 2 1/4 piece of cast iron cost me $85.98 including UPS shipping!

That's still cheaper than buying a used Turrel Lathe! :)

Widgit

This morning I called Speedy Metals (http://speedymetals.com/) 1-888-744-4140 and ordered one piece of cast iron for the adapter base plate!

A 12 1/4 x 6 1/4 x 2 1/4 piece of cast iron cost me $85.98 including UPS shipping!

That's still cheaper than buying a used Turrel Lathe! :)

Widgit

your are going to have to show us when you get it all going

nice find Eric, way to go.

Today I did a little reverse engineering!

After finding all the pins that fit the holes in the base plate, I set the part on an angle plate on my surface plate. Then I used my little height gage to calculate all the distances and center locations of all the holes!

But first I made a full scale sketch on some graph paper and added the dimensions as they were calculated!

All I need now is that big slab of cast iron! :)

Widgit

Today I did a little reverse engineering!

After finding all the pins that fit the holes in the base plate, I set the part on an angle plate on my surface plate. Then I used my little height gage to calculate all the distances and center locations of all the holes!

But first I made a full scale sketch on some graph paper and added the dimensions as they were calculated!

All I need now is that big slab of cast iron! :)

Widgit

Cant wait to see it in action

Eric;
That's probably one of the cleanest lathes I've ever seen!!! I think this thread is going to be fun to follow. Keep up the good work.
Bill from Spartanburg.
:)

It took me awail to understand how the turret worked ( by looking at your pics of the pieces). But I think I understand now. The locking part is bolted down to the base, inside of it is a piston, the piston has a arbor that goes threw & bolts to the turret(top). So when air pressure hits it, the piston raises the turret top, which lets the eight(I believe it was eight) regesters seperate so it can be rotated.


That looks like a pretty good design. It has a lot of regester surface to keep it in possition. So it should be very accurate (repetable) when rotated.


One thing I am not understanding is your use of the pins ( when making the gragh for the base plate). Are these pins in holes that are used to attach to the base plate that your making? I understand how your using the pins to find the center of the holes. But, what are the holes for?



Also, someone else meantioned about the type turning that could be done with this setup. It is pretty much like any other turret lathe. But after thinking about it I got to wandering if there is things that you would be limited with this type setup. ( remember I am not with expeirance of lathes). Anyway this got me wandering about having it mounted as a rear tool post. I guess one thing that is not known for me is how the cutters/tools attach to the post. So I dont understand the possition of the tool. So what kinda tool holder attaches to a turret of this type?



Jess

LOL Bill!
That is a picture of my lathe when it was brand spanking new! It didn't even have power connected, fresh off the forklift!

As for the turret's function, there is a large diameter piston inside which when air pressure is applied, pulls down on the top turret and locks it into position on the eight alignment rails.

There are many types of tool holders for this turret, ranging from turning to facing to boring and angle turning! Then there is a holder with a 5/8 bore which can hold Geometric Die Heads and large boring bars! Also the basic drill chucks!

Same tooling fits gang tool plates for Hardinge CNC's as well as Omniturns. There is another thread where we're discussing building such a plate for mini-lathes. I like that style of tooling. It also looks like it wouldn't be that hard to make your own holders, especially for the Widgitmaster!

Eric, from your photos above, I am inferring that you used your surface plate and height gage to measure coordinates for all the features on the base plate and then transferred that to a drawing on graph paper. Did you literally measure X and Y with the plate rotated 90 degrees?

FWIW, a list of those coordinates would make doing a drawing in most any CAD program super easy. I happen to prefer Rhino, but there are many available, and it seems like it would save you some time.

Best,

BW

Thanks Bob!
Yes, I clamped the plate to angle plate so I could lay it on it's side and measure the other direction!

Not all the dimensions were direct transfers to the new plate, as the origonal plate was goofy and had the turret sitting on an angle????

So I calculated all the bolt circles and rotated it so one flat edge of the octagon was perpendicular to the spindle! Then I had to relocate all the air porting and re-design the valve assemble! Challenging, but fun :)


Widgit

Made a little progress today!
I found 4 out of 5 O-Rings in ACE Hardware!

Now the search is on for the big 4 3/4" OD O-Ring for the main piston, it has a thickness of .145" (but it is very worn and disfigured)

I have been told that the "Make-Your-Own" O-Rings don't hold up well within a sliding mechanism, so I will search for a direct replacement!

Yesterday I re machined the small bearing surfaces that contact the thrust bearings when the turret is lifted and rotated, those surfaces had slight wear grooves in them. About .005" deep.

The CAD file is finished, and waiting for the slab of cast iron!

Widgit

Mcmaster (www.mcmaster.com) will have a replacement o-ring for you. .145 doesn't seem to be a standard size, but a nominal 1/8 o-ring measures .139 and should be close enough. Just pick a material that is suitable for the lubricant you are using and it should be fine.

Ken

the original size was .125. seals always swell when coated in lubricant.

Widget, you might make a trip to your local Transmision repair guy to find a good Oring that will work. You could even machine the piston to work with the lip type seals they use in a lot of the tranny pistons. It might hold up a lot better than a normal Oring. It would be something to fall back on if you cant find what you need anyway.


Jess

Thanks guys!

I just ordered 10 for $9.00 at McMaster Carr!

I fount the Neoprene 1/8 x 4.75" OD !

Now I have a few extras to sell on eBay :)

Can't wait for that slab of Cast Iron!!

Widgit

The slab of Cast Iron arrived today! I don't think the USP guy liked it very much!

I have been busy making little stainless knobs on my lathe, and had I an 8-station turret, it would have been much easier to make the 30 pieces!

The slab of Cast Iron arrived today! I don't think the USP guy liked it very much!


45ish pounds, eh? Annoying just to hump that thing in off the front porch and into the shop.

I've had a hard time getting Speedy to quote me a piece of cast iron that's 18" x 5" x 1" thick. I've been going by email and it has been hard. They just keep saying "regrets" and won't quote it. I guess I'll have to call and see what their story is.

I did get another outfit to quote me $125 delivered for the slab, but I really kinda wondered what Speedy's price would be before I order.

Best,

BW

Hey Bob, call Speedy's 800 number (1-888-744-4140), and ask for Marty or Anson! Tell them Eric says hello!
These guys are very helpfull, as I have spent a ton of cash there with all my little projects!

Widgit

Midwest Alloys out of the chicago neibhorhood 2'X5"X20" ductile $105 to my door this was last fall they will cut to size and I think they have a blanchard grinder also nice people to deal with have plate round and cored round I think they told me one time they could cast or saw 4'X8'X15' ph# is 1-800-526-0548 project look's good I thought of using a superspacer for a turitt on a DV59 conversion to CNC Keepup the good work Kevin

Today I put that slab of cast iron in my mill's vise, held it up high on some parallels, and machined all exposed surfaces flat parallel and square! This was necessary because the hot rolled surfaces of the slab were not flat, and I needed something to work from and to hold it securely.

Next I milled out the 1/4" deep track that will straddle the lathe's carriage! This was done in a few operations, 1st using my carbide shell mill to remove the bulk. 2nd I used a 1/2" 4 flute solid carbide end mill to square the inner corners and bring the track width to size.

Then I used a 5/32 4-flute carbide end mill to undercut the inner corners .025" deep. Then I use a 45° carbide end mill to chamfer the corners .025"

Then I used a long 3/4" 4-flute end mill to bring the ends to length.
Lastly, I setup my big fly-cutter so the tool radius fit inside the track, and took a .005" deep pass across the entire inside floor surface. This will be the datum surface when mounting the block and turret assembly to the lathe.

VIDEO (http://widgitmaster.com/video/Picture009.MOV) I would have made more movies, but i forgot to put the memory stick in the camera and I was too dirty with cast iron to go inside to look for it! (chair)


Now the entire bottom of the slab is finished in one process! Tomorrow I will drill & bore the hole which will go over the post on the lathe's carriage.

Oh, that looks sweat. That plate has a lot of meat & should allow a very stable platform for your turret. I guess that just sorta worked out that way because you had to make it to a height that would center your turrets tooling, but it worked out to the good from what I can see. Should be very stable.


Your fly cutter, it hangs out the back side of the base/tool. Was this for ballancing, or its just a cutter that can take a bigger cut & just happen to be hanging out the back for the size cut you was making? Looks like it was making a very smooth cut!


Well, it looks like its getting closer to time for the turret to be making some chips for use. And I hope you make a Vid of it in action when the time comes. I guess there is still more work to be done before that will happen though. So we will be waiting on the finishing touches & the rest of the story. Thank You.


Jess

This morning I put the slab on it's edge in the vise, and removed all material except for .005" for finishing.

Next I dismantled my lathe, removing the lead screw and cross slide.
Then I put the cross slide in my mill's vise, and used the mill like a CMM to get the exact location of the post so that I can drill & bore the mating hole exactly where it needs to be!

Next I placed the slab on edge in the mills vise, and removed all excess material except for .005" for finishing on each edge.

Then I plaCed the slab upside down in the vise, using four screw jacks to level the finished surface underneath. To do this I used my surface gage and a dial indicator, sliding the gage on the mill's table and adjusting the jacks until I had four corners with the same zero! Then I loaded my 3" face mill into the spindle and prepaired to mill the slap to the final thickness plus .010" for finishing.

But before I started milling, I needed to calculate the exact thickness required to place the top of the turret .3750 below the centerline of the spindle!

To do this I placed a .7500" hardened drill blank pin in the spindle, and dialed it in true. Then I used my trusty old planer gage to transfer the dimension from the top of the turret to the bottom of the pin to my micrometer!

The bad news is I had order a slab .750" too thick! Yikes :)


VIDEO1 (http://widgitmaster.com/video/Picture011.mov)
VIDEO2 (http://widgitmaster.com/video/Picture012.mov)
VIDEO3 (http://widgitmaster.com/video/Picture013.mov)

OMG!! A MAG Instrument 8 station? I used to work for them in the pre-flashlight days. Guaranteed accurate repeatability within .000050 (50 millionths, not tenths, mfg tolerances were less than half that.) Had one of the best non-aerospace QA labs I've seen. Far higher precision than the one Hardinge put on their chuckers.
Seeing that picture brought back memories of when I was 20-something and living in CA. I was at one time the only machinist (besides the owner) in the place. Then the siren song of Boeing got me to the Frozen North, but I digress...

Fascinating work here. I'm going to have to write another Widgitmaster Techniques piece in my blog I see. Some good stuff such as using the mill DRO as a CMM and leveling and indicating the CI piece in with machinist screws.

One thing though. I noticed in picture 017, you're dialing in on the pin for the cross slide. What's up with that indicator holder? I mean, it is a widgit, but it isn't THE widgit. At least it isn't the holder you sell on eBay.

(chair)

Don't mind me, just a little good natured harassment.

Best,

BW

There's always room for more Widgits Bob! :)

Today I used my big fly-cutter to take a final pass across the top of the plate. With the head trammed, and the plate leveled, the final thickness was within .0003" parallel! My contribution to the MAG Industries Turret!

VIDEO (http://widgitmaster.com/video/100_0096.MOV)

Next I drilled & tapped the eight mounting holes for 1/4-20 SHCS, and drilled the three 1/2" diameter flat bottom holes for the return springs!

Then I pressed out the hardened guide bushing from the old base plate, and drilled & bored the holes for the bushings new home!

The next step is to drill and ream a long .5000" diameter hole for the valve piston assembly, and that is another weekend's worth of work! I think I'll have to order a long drill bit, as the jobber's length drills are about 3/4" too short! Wish I had an Oxy-Acetylene set so I could braze an extension on an old drill bit! :mad:

During this whole process, I decided to lower the turret .750" below the centerline of the spindle, as it seemed advantageous to have long parts clear the top of the turret! That means I'll have to make all my own tool holders!

Regarding welding an extension to a drill:

Isn't there a technique where you put one part in the spindle of the lathe with the other held fixed on the cross slide (or tailstock)? Then run the spindle up to speed, turn it off and force the two parts together. The friction generates enough heat to weld the parts together.

I forget what the technique is called or where I heard about it. I've never tried it.

Ken

Regarding welding an extension to a drill:

Isn't there a technique where you put one part in the spindle of the lathe with the other held fixed on the cross slide (or tailstock)? Then run the spindle up to speed, turn it off and force the two parts together. The friction generates enough heat to weld the parts together.

I forget what the technique is called or where I heard about it. I've never tried it.

Ken

Surprisingly enough it is called friction welding. A year or so back someone had posted a link to a video showing it being done on something. I think I might have mentioned in a post that Caterpillar (the company that is) used it for welding ends onto hydraulic cylinder rods. Just about anyone who has run a CNC machine has done it inadvertently once or twice. Although normally this involves friction welding a tool into a big block of steel rather than onto a bar of equal diameter.

Now I feel a bit stupid :withstupi literally beside myself I guess. I did a search and find I am the guy who posted the video link. Ah well age does creep up on one.

looking good widgit keep posting

FYI, if anyone wants one, there are quite a few tooling plates of this style available on eBay at the moment. You still have to do the work Widgitmaster is doing (and then some, most have no base like his did) to adapt it to your lathe, but if you are enjoying the thread and want to "play along".

I snagged a Hardinge for potential use as a CNC toolchanger down the road.

Best,

BW

Awesome thread. Keep up the excellent work. I have a 4A 5 station turret lathe, and love the versatility, even though it has a relatively short bed.

Today I was able to spend 7 1/2 hours in the shop! I have gotten a lot done on this project!

Today I turned the new valve stem for the pneumatic clamping mechanism, made it out of 303-SS! I had to change my design to adapt everything to the new base plate, so I will need two more O-Rings for the new valve!

Then I drilled all the remaining holes on the top of the plate, as well as the little array of holes for the exhaust port! Next I drilled & tapped the 1/4 NPT input port, also on the side.

Then I placed the slab on end and rough drilled the deep hole for the valve stem, unfortunately, my long drill and new reamer have not arrived yet, so I was unable to complete the task!



Then I set the plate in the vise and milled a .125 x 45° chamfer on the top edges of the slab. So far so good! !

Widgit

Widgit, very nice. That ugly duckling chunk of cast iron is turning into a precisely machined swan!

Sorry to have missed out on whatever setup was needed to make that chamfer taper off around those circular areas. That was probably quite an interesting rotab setup.

Nice to get so much time to focus on a job. That's always when I make real progress.

Best,

BW

Not really Bob, all I did was ink up the area where the hub sits near the edge, and scribed a line following the curve! Then I hand filed it to the line at the same angle as the rest of the chamfers!

You need to think simple, not complicated!

Widgit

Not really Bob, all I did was ink up the area where the hub sits near the edge, and scribed a line following the curve! Then I hand filed it to the line at the same angle as the rest of the chamfers!

You need to think simple, not complicated!

Widgit

Well that's my problem in a nutshell! I work in the computer business, and nothing can make things more unnecessarily complicated than a computer:

To err is human, but to really screw up takes a computer!

LOL,

BW

Here are a couple more Pictures!

Hurray! It works!
Today I was able to put another five hours in the shop, this turret assembly is finished, assembled, & tested!

all week long i have been bidding and buying tooling on eBay, that was designed for use by the Hardinge Chucker's 8-station turret! Unfortunately, none of them fit this particular turret's dimensions! So now I have a bunch of stuff to re-sell on eBay!

It was not a complete loss, as I was able to acquire several 3/8" Jacobs drill chucks and some 5/23" Jacobs drill chucks. After removing all the Morse tapered shanks, I went to McMaster Carr and ordered a few 5/8" straight shanks and 1/2" straight shanks all with the appropriate Jacobs taper for the drill chucks!

The next thing I will do is mill up a bunch of tool holders to mount the drill chucks to the turret, and some blocks to hold 3/8" & 5/16" tool bits!

Then I will make a Widgit that can knurl various diameters, which will also mount to the turret! :)

Here is a video of the turret in motion:

VIDEO (http://widgitmaster.com/video/100_0109.MOV)

Widgit, that's really cool!

The air operation is very smooth.

So are the T-slots too big? I would assume if they're too small it might be easy to mill the Hardinge tooling than make blocks from scratch.

Another question: will the plunger knob be on the operator side or far side when the turret is in use? I get the idea it will be on the far side looking at the video.

Best,

BW

I believe you are having to much fun building this thing :).

I think this may have been covered before in the thread, if so just pay no mind and I will go back & look it up. But when the turret operates, the air raises it. But when it goes back to locked possition, does the air lock it or does just the spring pressure lock it?


You have that air pressure set just right, that thing works so smooth its not going to wearout because of abuss.


I would guess it would be best to buy a turret to start with. I got to thinking about making the top & locking plate & it would be very hard to get it sized up good enough to exact regestor/indexing for each possition. Atleast for most HMS guys anyway.


Am I thinking wrong, or are you going to be able to use that turret from the front or the rear of the work peice?


You know, it would not take much to take just what you have there & make it to where it auto indexed. Not that its really needed. It in itself is going to save so much time that I wander why many others have not done this before. And as far as auto indexing, with it being on a manual lathe it would almost be a waist of work to set it up that way. But for a CNC, it may be a different story.


That is going to be so nice when you put it to work on making those batches of Widgets that you make. With the time you save you will be able to make a lot more of them in the same time as before.


BTW, thanks for the Vids.


Jess

But when the turret operates, the air raises it. But when it goes back to locked possition, does the air lock it or does just the spring pressure lock it?

Good question Jeff,
Three springs pop it up, a spring loaded ball helps it index, and the air pressure locks it in position!


Bob.
As for the T-Slots, the tooling I got from eBay is usless, because I changed the design midstream, and made the spindle center .7500 above the turret top. I had only gotten two items, so it's no biggie!


I have all ready designed new tooling, and cut the stock last night. I'll be making three different length turning tool holders, and three 5/8 round holders for the drill chuck shanks.

It looks like I'll be making things for it as needed :)

Widgit

Another productive day!

Today I milled up four tool holders for the turret out of Hot Roll steel!
First I used the horizontal band saw to cut the stock from a 24" x 5" x 1.5" bar. The three pieces were 4 x 1.65 x 1.5, then I cut them again to the lengths needed.

Then I used my 3" dia face mill to bring the parts to size, and continued non stop for 6 hours till all four parts were finished with milling.

Tomorrow I will drill & tap the remaining holes, and make some custom T-Nuts or T-Studs to fasten them to the turret!

In order to make sure the surface which holds the tool bits was exactly .375 below center line of the spindle, I re-measured the distance from a 3/8 dowel pin to the top of the turret, and calculated the exact number needed for the tool holders. Then i used my round space blocks, and made up a stack to the exact number.

Then I used a 1-2-3 block, height gage with indicator, and transferred the dimension to and from the tool holder and the top of the space blocks until the indicator remained at zero! Taking light cuts in my mill as I went along.

More movies too!

VIDEO1 (http://widgitmaster.com/video/100_0139.MOV) Milling steel
VIDEO2 (http://widgitmaster.com/video/100_0141.MOV) Milling steel
VIDEO3 (http://widgitmaster.com/video/000_1158.MOV) Setting dimension using a height gage.

A little more progress!

Today I finished drilling & tapping the tool holders!
Made a mess of custom T-Nuts to fit the slots on the turret!

Then I band sawed the blocks for making the 1/2" & 5/8" diameter tool holders for the drill chucks!

Widgitmaster, you're getting very close I see. Just a few more attachments and you'll have widgits making widgits!

I would love to see some video on the turret in use manufacturing some parts, but I know you would have already thought of that and will have it when you get to it!

Thanks again for all your contributions. Many of us here have learned a lot from you!

Best,

BW

PS Darned if that little mini-router won't cut aluminum just fine! Was playing with it again this weekend. Amazing little machine.

Tonight I made a little more progress, I milled up a nice set of blocks and mounted them on the turret to be drilled and bored true to spindle centerline!

First I spot drilled the locations in the mill, then I dialed them in to the lathe spindle center. It took a few minutes to get both blocks in exactly the same place when the turret was rotated 180°, and also have the face of the block parallel to the axis of travel.

Then I rough drilled them by putting a stub drill in the collet chuck, then I switched over to a three jaw chuck to hold my 2" boring head with an R8 shank.

Next I set my carriage feed to it's slowest rate, and set the RPM around 750. After several passes with a boring bar, I used my new set of gage pins to keep me on target for my finished diameter. These two blocks will have 1/2" bores for the smaller tools and my 5/32" Jacobs drill chucks!

Now that the bores are finished, I will remove them and drill & tap a cross hole from the top for a nice big set screw! Cutting the shanks a little shorter may also be required!

Now when ever I need to set them up, all I need to do is put a pin in the spindle and clamp the block to the turret when the pin is inside it! And set zero for the center on the dial.

Next I will mill up a pair of bigger blocks for the 5/8" shank drill chucks.

Today I decided to finish this project by adding the DRO scale to my lathe that I had purchased way back when I got the lathe! The scale for the cross slide needs to have an adapter plate to fasten to, and an adapter to Mount the reader to the carriage.

The long adapter was made from a piece of Low Carbon steel with a nice ground finish, it measured 14x1.5x.5. The other adapter was the same material but only 4" long.

After all the measurements were done, I had a simple sketch to work from. Next I spent 4 house milling, drilling and tapping! After all was assembled, I decided to make a little wooden shelf to hold the DRO at eye level!

Now I will need to get a 2nd DRO counter, as I now have to share this one with my mill! Also, I have to order a 42" long scale for the lathe, and that is going to be expensive!

This evening I spent a little time calibrating the DRO on my lathe. The processes is easy, as all you need is a surface gage and a dial indicator.

The concept is simple, the scale must be parallel to the motion axis. any deviation will result in a distortion in the scale's measurement.

So by setting the surface gage on the top of the carriage, and setting the dial indicator to zero on top of the scale housing, then moving the the other end of the scale and comparing the indicator's readings. After loosening one of the fasteners on one end of the scale, and tapping it gently with a small block of plastic, I was able to get the same zero on both ends of the scale!

The perpendicularity of the scale was set when I milled the adapter plate and bolted it to the side of the lathe's carriage.

After calibrating, a test cut in the lathe resulted in an accurate diameter change of .0005, which was the amount I move the carriage according to the DRO!

Your attention to detail is always impressive. It's interesting to note, though, that an error in parallelism of .1 over ten inches will cause an error of about .0005 in ten inches. Although that's pretty small, I'm sure it wouldn't meet your standards.

An error of .01 over ten inches, though, would give an error of about 5 millionths of an inch over ten inches. That would be pretty hard to notice. :-)

People who worry about alignment of scales are worrying about the wrong thing. This is one area where it is hard to get it wrong enough to matter.

Alignment of the scale to the slider (or sensor, or whatever it's called) is a different issue. Depending on the technology, misalignment might cause the sensor to rub against the scale and shorten its life.

Regards,

Ken

Thank you!
You are correct, and much attention went into the detail of mounting the reader, as any mis-alignment can cause physical damage to the scale's internal sensors!
One of the main reasons I choose the Mitutoyo is that it has nice little plastic alignment blocks which are screwed in place for shipping, and have a dual purpose during the mounting process!
If everything is mounted properly, these little blocks should slide freely right up to the scale's reader. Any interferrence indicates mis-alignment of some component!

I have been trying to spice-up my lathe, so that I can easily turn a large quantity of close tollerance parts! I hope my efforts pay off! I have noticed an increase in finish quality when using the turret, as opposed to the generic tool compound! I suppose that massive cast iron plate has actually straightened out the thinner cross slide that came with the lathe!
Also, having adjusted the gib helped too!

Well, I have ordered a second DRO and the 42" scale from MSC, at a cost of over $800 not including shipping! The Mitutoyo DRO has a resolution of .00005"; consequently, any alignment error is greatly enhanced!

Hello widgitmaster,
I have been able to buy the same turret you started with. I want to mount it against a block and use it as a vertical turret; if that's the right terminology.

Anyway I want to take it apart and change all the seals but after looking at it for a hour along with your early pictures, I am totally at a loss to know how it comes apart. I presume the top or bottom shaft is a press fit and needs a puller but I don't want to hurt it.

Can you Help?

Jerry

Hello widgitmaster,
I have been able to buy the same turret you started with. I want to mount it against a block and use it as a vertical turret; if that's the right terminology.

Anyway I want to take it apart and change all the seals but after looking at it for a hour along with your early pictures, I am totally at a loss to know how it comes apart. I presume the top or bottom shaft is a press fit and needs a puller but I don't want to hurt it.

Can you Help?

Jerry


:eek: Oh No, NO PULLERS! :eek:

1st remove the center plug on top, it is pressed in!
2nd remove the 4-screw in the bottom of the t-slots, and let the outer skirt drop.
3rd remove the pointed setscrew which is accessible from the side, between the top & bottom halves.
4th remove the large bolt from the top, which was under the pressed in cover.
5th remove the 8 bottom plate screws. There is a spring loaded ball bearing, and 3 big springs.
6th remove the nut holding the piston to the hollow bottom plate.
7th use a pin-spanner wrench to remove the piston plate from the central shaft while holding the shaft in a 3-jaw chuck.

That's all folks!

Widgit

Thanks a million Widgit,
I won't have time today, (visiting family luncheon, curse of Florida living), but I'll get at it in the morning. It's step three that had me. I thought I looked all around in there, but I must have missed the set screw.

What air pressure are you using?
Also, there is a large pointed set screw in the base, maybe an airflow resrictor, there appears to be a threaded hole for another. Should there be two screws? What do they do?

Thanks again,
Jerry

If i'm not mistaken, I had to rotate the center assembly with an allen wrench to get the set screw to line up with one of the eight v-grooves under the top plate!

The screw was barely visable when not lined up!

Eric...I don't see any goop or other nasty looking stuff on your height gage, surface plate and other items! Nice to see that someone takes care of the precision insturments!
Steve

Help Again Eric!
Took 15 or 20 minutes to find the screw but it's out now. The new problem is that the thing still won't unscrew. I can rotate the top screw with some force but it doesn't seem to be coming apart. I assume it's a standard right hand screw.
Do you think I should try a 3/8" impact wrench or do you have another idea?
Thanks,
Jerry

Well the impact wrench got it apart.
The insides are a bit different from Eric's, but should work well.

Jerry

Eric,
I'd still be interested in knowing what pressure you're using.

thanks,
Jerry

Eric,
I'd still be interested in knowing what pressure you're using.

thanks,
Jerry


120 psi

Well the impact wrench got it apart.
The insides are a bit different from Eric's, but should work well.

Jerry

Got pictures?

Not yet Eric, as soon as I get all the pieces all cleaned up.

Jerry

Pics.
After cleaning up a bit and re-looking at Erics pics, I see there are not many differences.
The piston is held on by a nut and there are some parts in Eric's pics I don't recognize.
I now see that the top screw broke while extracting it, I don't know why as the set screw was totally out.
I could make another but creating the hex hole would be a project for me. I think I'll just use a bit of loctite blue on the threads.

Jerry

Today I have spent a few hours working on another project, and realized I did not have a boring bar big enough to cut 5/8-18 internal threads in my lathe! So I made one!

First I found a 1/2" dia Drill Blank in my tool box, along with two 3/16" dia dowel pins around an inch long. Then I took an 11/16 5C collet and placed the three pins in the collet! Then I placed the collet in my cheapo spin fixture, and placed it on my surface grinder. The two dowel pins allowed me to spin the drill blank with an eccentric offset!

Then I used a 3/4" wide wheel and slowly ground the drill blank about 3/16 deep offset. Next, I placed the drill blank in my vise, and oriented the eccentric diameter, so that I could grind a flat to 50% of the diameter.

Next, I placed my Uni-Vise on the surface grinder, and clamped the boring bar with the two bolts. Then I adjusted the Uni-Vise so that I could grind the inside 30° angle, along with a 5° relief angle. Next I re-positioned the boring bar to grind the other 30° angle along with a 5° relief angle.

Now I have a nice 1/2" Dia threading bar made of solid HSS!

I have noticed an increase in finish quality when using the turret, as opposed to the generic tool compound! I suppose that massive cast iron plate has actually straightened out the thinner cross slide that came with the lathe! Also, having adjusted the gib helped too!

I am so excited to hear you say this. I had thought that when I build my gang plate of 1" cast iron, possibly with a similar turret toolchanged atop, that my rigidity might increase, but I dared not think it aloud. This gives good reason to suspect it may be the case.

I must also say that the Hardinge turret I received is a lovely piece just to look at. The machine work on it is absolutely gorgeous.

Best,

BW

Hi Eric and All,
I finally got my o-rings from McMaster and finished assembling my turret; works beautifully.
I keep vasilating about how I'm going to mount it and what my tooling should look like. My first thoughts were to mount it on its side, with its axis parallel to the lathe axis. My reasoning has been that the way Eric is using it, limits the length of a part that it can be used to make; the tool holder needs to be as long as the part. Is that right?
However, mounting it on its side is going to take a pretty massive chunk of metal, and the tool holders still need to be long enough to avoid interferance between drill chucks and say a four jaw lathe chuck. This position would allow easy tool height ajustment.
In both cases I'm having a hard time picturing the mounting of things like cutoff blades, and scissor knurling tools.
I'd appreciate any feedback and any pictures of fully loaded turrets of either type.
Thanks,
Ozzie

By the way Eric, beautiful boring bar.
I remember my Dad Heating a piece of steel with a "white gasoline torch" , hammering the end over, quenching the end, watching the color come to the tip and then quenching the whole thing, and then grinding the end on a bench grinder. That was 52 years ago.

If anyone needs the two large rings for this turret, 4 3/4 and 6 inch, I have 9 spares of each.
The rings and shipping cost a quarter of what I paid for the turret!

How much? Hmmmm.
Send me a self addressed envelope, postage applied, $3 cash inside. Email me for my address. OzzieII@msn.com

Ozzie

Actually, that is why I made mine to function as an accessory! By removing four Allen cap screws, I can remove the entire turret assembly and re-install the standard tool post!

Having operated many turret lathes in the past, its easy for me to think of ways to make tool holders as I need them! But the first set I made covered the basics, like round tool holders and square tool bit holders. I have plans to make a parting tool, and one for knurling. There is even a plan for a nice radius turning accessory for the turret!

At this time I have so much work to do just fulfilling orders, that I sneak a little tooling project in whenever I can!

If you were to mount the turret horizontally, the moment you release the air pressure, the heaviest tool would drop to the bottom! I would consider that to be a major problem, as there isn't any means for mechanically indexing the turret! :eek:

Widgit

Thanks Eric,
The falling tool problem doesn't sound too big to me; I could leave the pressure on all the time, I have a couple tools that are always pressurized, or just move the heavy to the bottom.
When I bought the turret I hoped that it would handle all my tooling but maybe I need to rethink that. Maybe I only really need it for drilling operations.
I've already made about a dozen holders of various types for my quick change post and so another alternative would be to just make another three or four to hold more chucks or the drill stubs I use in my milling. Just thinking out loud, looking for ideas.
The plans you have for parting and knurling, are they paper, mind, or other?:) Can you share?

Ozzie

If you are talking about mounting the MAG turret vertically, don't worry. The serrations inside are angled (15* IIRC) so it will pull up anywhere you index it. We used to mount one in different positions and demonstrate that it still held .000050 repeatability. While I was a machinist, I did go out and make a few sales type demonstrations.

Thanks Toolman,
Can you tell me more about how you mounted it, what supported it, did you use different tool holders for the vertical position? Did you use other positions?
I'm new to this turret thing and would like to hear all you can share.

Ozzie

Well, with the project of making ten more Mini-Routers completed, I decided it was time to install the 42" long Linear Scale for the DRO to my lathe bed!

After spending an hour moving all the attachments and stuff for my lathe to the other side of my dividing wall, I swept up the floor and used a 6-foot pry-bar to move the lathe to the center of the work area. Then i setup my flood light so I could see what I was doing!

Next I sketched up and machined a pair of steel blocks to adapt the Linear Scale to the uneven painted cast iron surface behind the lathe bed.
The blocks have two 1/4-20 tapped holes for setscrews, and two counter bored holes for 1/4-20 SHCS to fasten the blocks to the lathe bed. The setscrews will be used to level and square the blocks to the ways.

Then I pushed a #7 drill through the cast iron, and tapped the hole. After tightening a SHCS in the 1st hole, I used the block to guide the 2nd drill so the holes were accurately located.

After both blocks were secured to the lathe, I used my Tri-Square and a .400 space block as a gage and adjusted the setscrews until the two blocks were perpendicular, parallel and square to the lathe ways.

Now I have to tweak everything with dial indicators to get them as close to perfect as possible! The more accurate the scale is mounted, the less error in the DRO's readings! The dialing process took me three hours of adjusting and shimming to get it within .001 over 40 inches!

Tomorrow, I will sketch the required block to attach the Linear Scale's reader to the back of the lathe's carriage. A nice block of aluminum will work just fine!

That DRO is going to be nice!

So did you indicate along the top and back of the scale to get it where you wanted it? Used the bolt wiggle to move up and down and shims between the scale and bracket?

Best,

BW

Yes Bob,
Because the mounting brackets were machined, I trued them up as close as possible. Then I used shims between them and the scale. There was enough slop in the holes on the end of the scale to set it horizontally with a depth mic, then I tweaked it with an indicator.

This Mitutoyo KA-Counter DRO will give my Chinese lathe an accuracy of .0001" in all directions! I can't wait to use it with the new turret!

Eric

Today I made the mounting bracket for the scale's reader, and everything aligned perfectly!

Then I removed the Gap from the lathe bed, scraped all the crud and extra paint from the mating surfaces. Then I put it back in place, and the taper pins helped get it really close. All I needed to do was tap it with a lead hammer to get the way surfaces to align perfectly.

The next phase of this project is to add adjustable feet to the bottom of the lathe, so that I can easily keep it perfectly level! The only problem I see is the cabinet beneath the lathe is made from thin sheet metal, and is actually hollow!

My solution to this problem is to place a 3/8" hot roll steel plate under the lathe, and drill & tap the plate for the adjustable feet! The scrap yard had a couple of torch cut drops, a few inches bigger than I needed, so I placed the bigger plate on the mill and ran a 3/8 ruffing end mill the whole length!

The adjustable feet have 1/2-13 UNC threads, and a rubber bottom. They may not slide easily, but they will help me level the lathe!

In order to get the plate under the lathe, I used a pair of 2-ton 14" screw jacks and a couple pieces of lumber!

Isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when no one is looking over your shoulder, or the phone is ringing constantly! I love retirement!

Widgit

Oh, I wish you'd taken pix of the gap taken out. I've never seen that done.

Do you think you'll have need to use it that way? Just wondered why you pulled it out.

Saw your leveling feet and it made me think of something. FWIW, I bought a crate of hockey pucks on ebay for $10. What the heck would you want a crate of pucks for? Machine feet. The rubber machines real nice, so I may use them for other purposes too.

Now here is the other interesting question: Now that you can measure to a tenth, are you going to "tune up" your lathe to improve its accuracy? For example, I've talked to folks who took the leveling a step further. They started out just leveling, and then went a step further putting "anti-twist" on to get the taper out of their turning operations. These were folks on the PM boards doing this with full sized machines, even commerical turning centers. Others I know don't hold with that approach.

Best,

BW

Hi Bob,
Prior to this phase of the project, my lathe was propped up on stacks of metal on four corners, not so good when the base has six points to level it from! I will sneak a few pictures of the Gap for you before I'm done. The reason I removed it was the swelling of rust was raising it up, causing an uneven condition in my turned surfaces. I had not noticed it till I put the DRO on the carriage!

Yes, before I'm done, I plan on leveling the lathe, and adjusting the headstock till it produces minimal taper over 3 or 5 inches!

The other problem I have encountered, is the positive stop I made in another post, only had 5 positions, and I now have 8 stations on the turret! I have totally remade the stop, so it lands on a different location on the side of the carriage. That was a big project, but when I'm done the lathe will be really sweet to run! :)

Another BIG project finished!
Today I finished making the sub plates for my lathe, and placed them under the lathe. Then I spent an hour adjusting the feet until the lathe was level on both ends and in the middle. I used a couple sets of 123 blocks, to raise my Starret level above the ways, and that helped speed things up!

After the lathe was level, I placed a 2" dia x 6" long piece of steel in the 3-jaw chuck, taking a light cut and measured the diameter for taper. After bouncing the lathe around the shop floor, the taper was .0017 over 4 inches!

So I lostened two of the four bolts that fasten the headstock to the ways, and located the adjuster nut on the back of the headstock. After a little trial and error, I have successfully eliminated the taper!

The splash guard went back on easy, along with the chuck guard, then I spent the rest of the afternoon mounting a 2x4 to the back wall, and drilling big holes in it to store all my drill chucks and centers! Then I put the coolant tank and pump assembly under the lathe, so now it's ready to do some serious work!


VIDEO (http://www.misspattys.com/100_0209.MOV)

Well, it took me a little time to get used to using the DRO with the 8-station turret, as the DRO's manual is so poorly written! After I figured out how to set the coordinates for each tool, and set the carriage stop accordingly, I ran off 20 leadscrews for the new Midi-Routers! The DRO allows me to set a ZERO for for each axis with each tool!

So while turning the leadscrews, Tool #1 was a facing tool. Tool #2 was a center drill. Tool #3 ruff-turn small diameter. Tool #4 ruff-turned large diameter. Tool #5 finish turned large diameter. Tool #6 finish turned small diameter. The trick is getting into the rythim of indexing the turret, indexing the stop turret, and switching the DRO to the next tool! And yes, I did scrap a couple of parts by missing a step in procedure, but that's what red dykem is for! :)

I have been making tool holders as I see need for them, the next one will be for a cut-off blade!

This Chineese lathe is running really nice and tight, and the new DRO actually allows me to turn off one tenth from the diameter (.0001").
I would have taken some video's, but I have been preocupied with getting it all to work!

While making the leadscrews, I noticed the turret was repeating within .0003", I wonder if an increase in air pressure would lock it down better?

Widgit

Fun stuff!

I woulda thought one of those springey coiley air hoses would be good for this application, perhaps with a quick connect mounted to the backsplash.

Now just imagine a CNC gang lathe doing your bidding!

Best,

BW

Hi Bob,
The coiled air lines take up more space, and in my little shop that is a valuable commodity! The lathe is near the front of the garage, so when the door is open it covers the lathe. This eliminates access to the celing as a place to hang an air line, coiled or straight!

But you are correct, it is FUN :cheers:

Widgit!

OK,
Here is a little video of the turret in action, making delrin nut blanks.

VIDEO (http://widgitmaster.com/video/100_0230.MOV)

Widgit

Another video of the turret making aluminum spacers!

VIDEO (http://widgitmaster.com/video/100_0231.MOV) (this is a long winded movie, be patient)

Station #1 is a push bar, which puts the stock at the starting position.
Station #2 is a facing tool, removing .005" material.
Station #3 is a 1/2" stub drill, set for .4" depth.
Station #4 is a 5/8" shank boring bar, finishing bore to .525" ID.
Station #5 is a turning tool, set to turn .87" OD x .39" long.
Station #6 is a parting tool, set to cut of the part at .37" long.

Next operation will be to hold the new parts in a collet, and face them to the final thickness.

These little spacers are used between the ball bushings and snap rings on the x-axis slide of the Mini & Midi-Routers. Two required for each router.

Widgit

Hi Eric,
Are you getting that finish on the ends without polishing? (On the screws)
If you are maybe you can spell out the details of speed, feed, and maybe a closeup picture of the finishing tool; ,,,,,,,,in your spare time :-)
Ozzie

Hi Eric,
Are you getting that finish on the ends without polishing? (On the screws)
If you are maybe you can spell out the details of speed, feed, and maybe a closeup picture of the finishing tool; ,,,,,,,,in your spare time :-)
Ozzie

Hello Ozzie!
No, making the ends is tricky!
I have found that by the time the tool bit cuts off the thread, the intermittant cut has killed the cutting edge! This is the advantage of having a turret lathe, as one tool rough turns the bulk material off. Then a finish tool removes the last .010" in light cuts.

Lastly, I file off a little taper from the 1/4" diameter, and polish the finish diameters with a Cratex stick (rubber impregnated with abrasives)

The tool bits are 3/8" AR brazed C6 carbide, sharpened on a diamond wheel. I have purchaces tool bits from Enco, and was not happy with them, so now I buy them from McMaster Carr. Enco's Chinese bits are not as tough as a C6 grade bit should be, and the steel that they are brazed to is bent or twisted!
This is a big problem for me, as the rigid tool holders on my lathe's turret require the tool to be exactly .375 from spindle center line!

The finish tool has a sharp point.

Widgit

Thanks Eric,
I'll have to try the Cratex.
Why the sharp point?
Ozzie

The videos are very enjoyable, Widgit!

Oh, but you are so close to nirvana. That lathe would be so easy to CNC!

Probably less trouble than building the turret and stops for it. Imagine it singing along with a pneumatic collet closer and bar puller.

If you leave off the spindle speed control, you would just need a few relays to turn spindle on and off, reverse (if desired), coolant relay, and a couple of Geckos for the two axes.

What a machine it would be for turn out router parts!

Best,

BW

Pics.
After cleaning up a bit and re-looking at Erics pics, I see there are not many differences.
The piston is held on by a nut and there are some parts in Eric's pics I don't recognize.
I now see that the top screw broke while extracting it, I don't know why as the set screw was totally out.
I could make another but creating the hex hole would be a project for me. I think I'll just use a bit of loctite blue on the threads.

Jerry


Hey Jerry,
Did you ever get that 8-station turret hooked up and running?
Eric

Hi Eric,
After looking at the thing for a long time I decided to work on setting it up. I took a lot of pics. and wrote an article which I've submitted to Home Shop Machinist.
Most of the article is on making and setting up the tool holders for CNC use along with Mach3.

It seems to work well in early tests, but shortly after completing it I decided to paint my '94 Infinity. Re-learning to paint with today's materials has proven a long experience. I painted and re sanded the hood four times.

Next week I'll get back to using the turret and giving it some real tests of repeatability and stiffness. I used a commercial angle plate to mount the turret and it was just big enough; so if stiffness proves a problem I'll go to a larger one or consider a huge chunk of cast iron. The weight of that would be more than I want to deal with at my age. It will be interesting to see if it's stiff enough for a parting tool. Of course I can still use my old post for heavy work; I've set the turret up as a back tool post. Using both back and front makes CNC coding a bit tricky with Mach3, avoiding collision and such. It's not a huge problem, just have to keep one's wine consumption under control.

Assuming I'm happy, I'll consider designing a new back end so I can rotate the turret with CNC. That shouldn't be too tough. The real beauty of the Mag is the indexing system; lots of surface, lots of surfaces.

Rotation of the turret with the air disconnected does not seem a problem; the spring loaded ball locater holds well enough, with the tools presently installed.

Thanks for your interest,
Ozzie