I am 16 years old and I LOVE machining. I am looking into purchasing a mini mill for my garage. I have been looking at the grizzly G8689, or possibly the G1005Z or something under 2 grand. Does grizzy make good machines? What other companies make mini mills that are good? The reason I am so interested in the G8689 is because i saw a cnc conversion kit for it. Do they make cnc kits for the ones that are a little bigger? Does the cnc kit run mastercam programs or do you have to program it by hand? Sorry for all the questions. Any help would be appreciated

Couple of questions first...

1. how big are the parts you want to machine?

2. what materials?

With those answered, you will get responses.

I currently own the HF version of the G8689. You will find it referred to by its manufacturer name here. The Seig X2. Do some searches for that and you will find a wealth of info.

Being 16 and all, I have to ask a few more questions... Have you ever used a metal machine before? I only ask, not because I don't think you can't handle it, but because you have to respect the machine (even though it is small). Folllow good safety practices and the like.

If not, maybe you good find someone to mentor you or a vocational program?

I am 16 years old and I LOVE machining. I am looking into purchasing a mini mill for my garage. I have been looking at the grizzly G8689, or possibly the G1005Z or something under 2 grand. Does grizzy make good machines? What other companies make mini mills that are good? The reason I am so interested in the G8689 is because i saw a cnc conversion kit for it. Do they make cnc kits for the ones that are a little bigger? Does the cnc kit run mastercam programs or do you have to program it by hand? Sorry for all the questions. Any help would be appreciated

You know this post is funny, at sixteen I was working in a machine shop and I wanted nothing to do with it then again I was sweeping the floor. The machines in that shop went so low that you could have gotten 3 or 4 of the small x1's. And they were nice too, old K&T(kearny and Trucker) and bridgeports. At any rate I digress.

First off, I would ask your mom and dad if they are going to let you have it and make them realize there will be chips from it. So if you garage is coinhabited by a moms vehicle you may need to be on the same page as her, as I know my wife would probably make me and or my son move out.
Second, you should know how the machine operates properly, I assume that you can take industrial shop classes at your school, it would be wise to be inrolled in those if not already, there are alot of little things that you need to know over and above just buying the mill.
Grizzly does not make any machines they are strictly a resaler who rebrands other peoples equipment the majority coming from china.(although I don't know about alot of the woodworking equipment). And yes for the most part the equipment is fine, the Sieg made items seem to be of better value then some of the others who include jet and rong fu amongst many others. They have excellent service and carry many parts in stock.


The Sieg X2 (grizzly 8689) is sold by many other companies(Harbor Frieght, Micro Mark, Cummins, Homier) so you should do your homework before you buy it, you may save your self some money. Also don't forget to add the shipping into the total price or that might bite you in the rear. If you have a harbor freight store near by they will more then likely carry it and you can save yourself on freight. This machine has been succesfully turned into cnc by many people. If you look at CNC fusion they sell a kit with ballscrews which improves the normal preformace besides adding cnc(you still have to buy motors, and controls). I recommend that you do alot research before you go and buy anything, there are pricey out of the box kits which only require a computer but they are expensive and out of your stated price range. You should also consider that turning that machine into a cnc will run around $1500 more if you buy some of the available kits. I was in a thread the other day that was quoting $550(cncfusion) and $475(xylotex) for conversion and stepper and controls if memory serves. The only draw back is that this machine runs a spindle taper of MT#3 and thats really minor. There are tons of mods and tooling for these machines and I would say is an a very good starter that will hold its resale value well.

Other companies that make or more properly sells mills( in reality that are not any producers in your price range in the states anymore.) are industrail hobbies(which is considerably larger) and little over 2 grand depending upon shipping zone. Its a big machine and its well suited to larger parts in one of their pictures they show a small block chevy on the mill. A company called lathemasters sells the zay series of mill, which are also larger. The Sieg x3 is also sold by grizzly(g0463) harbor freight and cummins is also an excellent mill for its price, and is the bigger brother of the X2.
The other mill you were asking about I know nothing about save that its a round column mill. These are not very easy to convert to CNC, and they don't in my opinion cut as nice as square or dovetail column mills because the head can spin while cutting. I use a rong fu 30 at work and its a piece of crap compared to some of the same sized sqaure column mills mainly because if you take a heavy cut the mill swings sideways. They are very good drill presses, there side milling abilty is less then par however.
As for what software you will need mastercam is the first and second steps of the cnc process, you will need the third as well as the hardware. The third being the machine code translator, I would only recomend mach 2 by artsoft. The sequence of events goes like this,
You have the idea, you draw the idea in CAD, after you are done drawing it you transfer it to CAM, were the machine code is generated(G-code) which is then downloaded to the computer and run by the machine code operator (mach 2) which runs the mill and you produce the part. You can also just use the Mach 2 to run the machine by manually creating a program or jogging the mill, its alot to learn but if you have good computer skills it should not be to hard. A good understanding of X,Y,Z planes as used in algerbra helps and some of the terms used are the same like relative and absoulte.

If you build this unit into CNC you need to have a firm understanding of electrical and mechanincal controls also, its not hard but you should understand that this is not like working with a cars electronics, one wrong wire and you could fry several hundred dollards worth of drivers, or worse you. Also you or someone else can get hurt very easily while these machines are running.
The other thing you need to take into consideration is that you need to buy other things, like tooling, collets, vises, clamp downs, measure equipement, and of course material to make chips with.

In the end if I know what I know now, i would have started at 16, so go for it and there are never any dumb questions, only ones asked too late!

chris

Couple of questions first...

1. how big are the parts you want to machine?

2. what materials?

With those answered, you will get responses.

I currently own the HF version of the G8689. You will find it referred to by its manufacturer name here. The Seig X2. Do some searches for that and you will find a wealth of info.

Being 16 and all, I have to ask a few more questions... Have you ever used a metal machine before? I only ask, not because I don't think you can't handle it, but because you have to respect the machine (even though it is small). Folllow good safety practices and the like.

If not, maybe you good find someone to mentor you or a vocational program?

1. Mostly small parts like triple clamps for a motorcycle. Probably around 9 by 4.

2. 90 percent of parts would be alluminum. Some steel. I don't expect to ever do titanium.

I would appriciate some more info on the model mill you own though. Mabe some pics of parts you have made. What is the biggest part you have made with it. I have experience with mills before. I have been in a class at my high school for a couple years. I can do mastercam programing and run the program on a cnc mill that is in the shop. I also work at a machine shop.

Well keep in mind that the travel on a CNC'ed X2 is about X=7" Y=3.5" give or take a little.

It's nice to see a teenager who is into something else besides going to the mall and video games!!!! Big props Bro!!!

LAter,
Tim

You know this post is funny, at sixteen I was working in a machine shop and I wanted nothing to do with it then again I was sweeping the floor. The machines in that shop went so low that you could have gotten 3 or 4 of the small x1's. And they were nice too, old K&T(kearny and Trucker) and bridgeports. At any rate I digress.

First off, I would ask your mom and dad if they are going to let you have it and make them realize there will be chips from it. So if you garage is coinhabited by a moms vehicle you may need to be on the same page as her, as I know my wife would probably make me and or my son move out.
Second, you should know how the machine operates properly, I assume that you can take industrial shop classes at your school, it would be wise to be inrolled in those if not already, there are alot of little things that you need to know over and above just buying the mill.
Grizzly does not make any machines they are strictly a resaler who rebrands other peoples equipment the majority coming from china.(although I don't know about alot of the woodworking equipment). And yes for the most part the equipment is fine, the Sieg made items seem to be of better value then some of the others who include jet and rong fu amongst many others. They have excellent service and carry many parts in stock.


The Sieg X2 (grizzly 8689) is sold by many other companies(Harbor Frieght, Micro Mark, Cummins, Homier) so you should do your homework before you buy it, you may save your self some money. Also don't forget to add the shipping into the total price or that might bite you in the rear. If you have a harbor freight store near by they will more then likely carry it and you can save yourself on freight. This machine has been succesfully turned into cnc by many people. If you look at CNC fusion they sell a kit with ballscrews which improves the normal preformace besides adding cnc(you still have to buy motors, and controls). I recommend that you do alot research before you go and buy anything, there are pricey out of the box kits which only require a computer but they are expensive and out of your stated price range. You should also consider that turning that machine into a cnc will run around $1500 more if you buy some of the available kits. I was in a thread the other day that was quoting $550(cncfusion) and $475(xylotex) for conversion and stepper and controls if memory serves. The only draw back is that this machine runs a spindle taper of MT#3 and thats really minor. There are tons of mods and tooling for these machines and I would say is an a very good starter that will hold its resale value well.

Other companies that make or more properly sells mills( in reality that are not any producers in your price range in the states anymore.) are industrail hobbies(which is considerably larger) and little over 2 grand depending upon shipping zone. Its a big machine and its well suited to larger parts in one of their pictures they show a small block chevy on the mill. A company called lathemasters sells the zay series of mill, which are also larger. The Sieg x3 is also sold by grizzly(g0463) harbor freight and cummins is also an excellent mill for its price, and is the bigger brother of the X2.
The other mill you were asking about I know nothing about save that its a round column mill. These are not very easy to convert to CNC, and they don't in my opinion cut as nice as square or dovetail column mills because the head can spin while cutting. I use a rong fu 30 at work and its a piece of crap compared to some of the same sized sqaure column mills mainly because if you take a heavy cut the mill swings sideways. They are very good drill presses, there side milling abilty is less then par however.
As for what software you will need mastercam is the first and second steps of the cnc process, you will need the third as well as the hardware. The third being the machine code translator, I would only recomend mach 2 by artsoft. The sequence of events goes like this,
You have the idea, you draw the idea in CAD, after you are done drawing it you transfer it to CAM, were the machine code is generated(G-code) which is then downloaded to the computer and run by the machine code operator (mach 2) which runs the mill and you produce the part. You can also just use the Mach 2 to run the machine by manually creating a program or jogging the mill, its alot to learn but if you have good computer skills it should not be to hard. A good understanding of X,Y,Z planes as used in algerbra helps and some of the terms used are the same like relative and absoulte.

If you build this unit into CNC you need to have a firm understanding of electrical and mechanincal controls also, its not hard but you should understand that this is not like working with a cars electronics, one wrong wire and you could fry several hundred dollards worth of drivers, or worse you. Also you or someone else can get hurt very easily while these machines are running.
The other thing you need to take into consideration is that you need to buy other things, like tooling, collets, vises, clamp downs, measure equipement, and of course material to make chips with.

In the end if I know what I know now, i would have started at 16, so go for it and there are never any dumb questions, only ones asked too late!

chris

It won't be a problem to put it in my garage. I say MY garage because I obtained it as a birthday present in August. I work on dirt bikes a lot in there and it was the best present my parents could have given me. I do have experience with cnc machines. There is this old bridgeport manual mill at my school and it is converted to cnc. It has a box on it with a screen and it displays the x y and z positions. From the box on it it can be programmed to do position drilling, mill from point, circles and other things that I can't think of now. You can actually do a lot with the machine like that without mastercam or anything. Is there anything like that for the little mills. What I think I am going to do is buy the little mill and just use it as is for a while. Then Ill decide if CNC is something I want for this machin of if a want something a little bigger. The main thing that worries me about it is only 4 inches of y axis travel.

Well keep in mind that the travel on a CNC'ed X2 is about X=7" Y=3.5" give or take a little.

It's nice to see a teenager who is into something else besides going to the mall and video games!!!! Big props Bro!!!

LAter,
Tim

Thanks man. Im actually looking at the sx3 now.

Thanks man. Im actually looking at the sx3 now.

Just so you know I talked to grizzly a week ago and they were on backorder for about a month. The Csr said 4-6 weeks but could not give me a exact date.. They did have the regualar x3's in stock at that moment.

I will give you my honest opinion, if you have a whole garage to yourself, and its got a concrete floor, I would try and get something bigger, you can(I say this loosely) get a bridgeport in used condition for sometimes next to nothing if you can find the means to move it. Keep in mind you will more then likely either need 3 phase or a converter or a single pahse motor. I have more then once seen at auction nice bridgeports go for $250-300, some with collets and all.

Otherwise I would try and at least get an X3, but I would not rule out the Industrial hobbies machine, albiet a touch expensive it will do alot more work suited to you. Say you want to go through a engine tranny or such, plus they offer cnc kits(they are more then the mill though) to upgrade later.

If you have mastercam experience you are already one leg up on me because I just have cad and real minumal g-code experience. Yes the mach 2 control software can do what refered to as canned moves, drill a number of holes, do pockets, etc. You can also builld a MPG(manual pulse generator) dial to do manual jogs or just use the keyboard commands. Mach is a very powerful peice of software on its own, but if you have the power to use CAM then you are really ahead of the curve. The box you are refering too is more then likely an older series bridgeport, most if not all machine tools used there own machine operators which were hardwired to the mill. The box you would have to build but its not hard, and it gives you alot more flexiblity. You are replacing the box with a computer, and a power supply for the drives/motors, motor drivers, a breakout board(this is not needed but recomended), and the motors and maybe a few switchs to prevent overtravel and create a home.

Some sites you should look at are Gecko, Industrial Hobbies(these are servos), CNCfusion, Artofcnc(mach software they have tons of videos), PMDX(they sell break out boards), xylotex, and read the forums here(there are a lot of sub forums from these companies). If you do a search before you ask a question you will more then likely get it answered.

chris

Just so you know I talked to grizzly a week ago and they were on backorder for about a month. The Csr said 4-6 weeks but could not give me a exact date.. They did have the regualar x3's in stock at that moment.

I will give you my honest opinion, if you have a whole garage to yourself, and its got a concrete floor, I would try and get something bigger, you can(I say this loosely) get a bridgeport in used condition for sometimes next to nothing if you can find the means to move it. Keep in mind you will more then likely either need 3 phase or a converter or a single pahse motor. I have more then once seen at auction nice bridgeports go for $250-300, some with collets and all.

Otherwise I would try and at least get an X3, but I would not rule out the Industrial hobbies machine, albiet a touch expensive it will do alot more work suited to you. Say you want to go through a engine tranny or such, plus they offer cnc kits(they are more then the mill though) to upgrade later.

If you have mastercam experience you are already one leg up on me because I just have cad and real minumal g-code experience. Yes the mach 2 control software can do what refered to as canned moves, drill a number of holes, do pockets, etc. You can also builld a MPG(manual pulse generator) dial to do manual jogs or just use the keyboard commands. Mach is a very powerful peice of software on its own, but if you have the power to use CAM then you are really ahead of the curve. The box you are refering too is more then likely an older series bridgeport, most if not all machine tools used there own machine operators which were hardwired to the mill. The box you would have to build but its not hard, and it gives you alot more flexiblity. You are replacing the box with a computer, and a power supply for the drives/motors, motor drivers, a breakout board(this is not needed but recomended), and the motors and maybe a few switchs to prevent overtravel and create a home.

Some sites you should look at are Gecko, Industrial Hobbies(these are servos), CNCfusion, Artofcnc(mach software they have tons of videos), PMDX(they sell break out boards), xylotex, and read the forums here(there are a lot of sub forums from these companies). If you do a search before you ask a question you will more then likely get it answered.

chris

I am getting at least the X3. The industrial hobbies machine is in the picture but id have to wait a little longer. http://www.syilamerica.com/product_h4.asp or this one which is an x3 that is already converted to cnc. Where do you get the mach 2 software at? I want to just get the x3 now and convert to cnc later but I don't know where to get a kit for it.

Just to reinforce Chris's suggestion, you can get more machine by going used. It is something to consider. In any event if you are to machine steel with any rapidity you will need the largest machine you can afford. Your experiences with the schools CNC'ed Bridgeport will not transfer to the smaller machines well.

That is not to say that you can't machine steel with an X3 as you most certainly can. The problem is that it will be a much slower effort. Of course with a CNC'ed machine this doesn't mean much from the fatigue standpoint.

Interesting that you are starting out with a Mill. I was very young when I got my first drill press also. That stayed in my parents garage for a long time and I still have it. Unfortunately I went cheap at the time so it has never been a really good drill press, but I do have a project in the back of my mind to upgrade it to be a much more useful machine. sounds like you are on the right track though with regards to going with a mill first. Seems to be a good fit for your interests.

Dave

Ill be looking on ebay and craigslist for a used bridgeport of larger mill. Anywhere else I can look?

Ill be looking on ebay and craigslist for a used bridgeport of larger mill. Anywhere else I can look?

I would actually only use ebay as a guide, purchasing through ebay can be very expensive once you start adding transport costs(unless you find a local), and you cannot look(unless local) at the machine you have purchased. There two places I would start, first is look up the registered auctioneers for your state, see if they have lists for auctions and if they have websites which many do these days. The other option is to look used machinery dealers, they tend have alot of bridgeports but also want more since they themselves go to auctions and buy them.
One of the other things is go to your school teacher and seen when and if they are going to upgrade there current equipement, often buisnesses give away machines as right offs, esp if you live in a tax hell state like I do. Schools will often turn around and sell or auction those machines off. The same thing goes with tech colleges and universties. Auctions can be listed in local newspapers along with plane old for sale seciton. Sheriff auctions, federal auctions(GSA), and state auctions are also listed looking under the agency. I would go to a couple auctions and watch as they can be a unique experience esp if you have ever been to a farm auction. You will need to take an adult and all of the ones I deal with take 10% over sale(plus tax) and only cash, or a certiified letter from your bank with an account limit.

Another type of mill you might come across is the Hardinge Um, its in my opionion better but its a horz. and you can get a vertical head for it. But that is one of those he says/ she says arguments. There are anumber of good american mills, clausing/atlas, k&t(these tend to be big), hardinge, cincinnati(spelling) and B&S(be warned they use their own taper).
Some things you need to watch for are the spindle taper, and votlage hook up and any unusal add ons like hang on cnc(they are pain to fix and hard to find parts for). I personally would avoid gear and variable speed head bridgeports sticking with the 2 speed(hi-lo)multi belt desgin.You need to figure out your power budget also, if you only have single phase power you are going to be limited to about 2HP motor. You need to determine maxium amperge and votlage that you have, plus figure running lamps and heaters etc.
chris

I am getting at least the X3. The industrial hobbies machine is in the picture but id have to wait a little longer. http://www.syilamerica.com/product_h4.asp or this one which is an x3 that is already converted to cnc. Where do you get the mach 2 software at? I want to just get the x3 now and convert to cnc later but I don't know where to get a kit for it.

Sorry i did not see this on the first read,
Syil is expensive, but seems to be good, they have a forum on this site. There is no one kit, but several get you down to the two or three purchases. I would worry about that once you get to that point as thnigs like that tend to be fluid and change often. Mach software can be found at www.machsupport.com I don't sell or represent them. Goggle some of the other companies I mentioned above and you will get days worth of information.

chris

Do you plan to convert to CNC?
The SX3 looks to be really nice for manual machining. I think it's a bit of a waste for CNC though. If I ever get another mill for strictly manual use, the SX3 will be a candidate. http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0619

SupermotoAbuser its cool to see another 16 year old machining.
i find that being in Canada its harder to find nice equipment. my eyes are still peeled open tho.

this thread has allot of information, myself am 16 and trying to find the right machine.

now to sit back and absorb the info!

SupermotoAbuser its cool to see another 16 year old machining.
i find that being in Canada its harder to find nice equipment. my eyes are still peeled open tho.

this thread has allot of information, myself am 16 and trying to find the right machine.

now to sit back and absorb the info!

I would imagine its not hard to find it, its just hard to get it.

chris

SupermotoAbuser its cool to see another 16 year old machining.
i find that being in Canada its harder to find nice equipment. my eyes are still peeled open tho.

this thread has allot of information, myself am 16 and trying to find the right machine.

now to sit back and absorb the info!

Yup. Its hard because I like all this stuff but its way expensive and I already spent a lot of my money on dirt bikes.

Yup. Its hard because I like all this stuff but its way expensive and I already spent a lot of my money on dirt bikes.

There are several truths in life, one you will never have enough time,I am personally looking at adding another 5 hours to every day. Two you will never have enough money, most people choose to live to there means, lucky are the ones who can live no where near there means(or stuipd depenending upon which end of the means you live at ie debt). Somepeople can buy time, others can wait for money, very few are the ones who can have a surplus of both and are willing to part with both.
Knowledge is power, you can never learn enough, never stop learning and never ever forget the lessons of the past.

New and improved is often the slogan of a salesman who had the time and money to sucker you of both, let your knowledge figure out which is more important. PT Barnum said it best a sucker is born everyminute.

Beholden to the fact the people you surround yourself are what you make yourself out to be, and so do others make out of you.

Life is not fair, nor should it be, but don't get caught up being unfair either. Esp when it comes to takeing the time or money from someone else, because charma is a &*() and will bite you in the rear.

Otherwise you may find yourself spending time, and money on the hospital room because the friends you surround yourself with did not have the knowledge and means to see the salesman sucker punch you.


chris

you are a wise man chris

you are a wise man chris

Nope I worked with car salesmen for ten years, it took me that long to realize I hated what I did, and where I worked(ford dealer partsman). I put myself through school after having 2 kids before 22. I still work at a partime job towing cars and fixing their trucks(this job has its perks) I have since only liked where I worked for any extent of time the place that had to let me go because of 9/11. I went to tech school, as millwright/maintenance and now do that for a printing company, its niether pays all that great nor has much in the way of advancement. It does have lots of perks also, but they often are brought down with other things like being on call all the time. And repeatdly telling morons not to hit highly machined pieces that cost $3,000 with hammers.
So my advice to you, finish HS, go to college, if you like techincal stuff go for engineering or design you can make boku bucks that way, I don't think there is a machinst here that would disagree with me on that(it does not hurt to know how to machine). Don't discount your dreams, and live life like its your last day. If you like motorcycles do it for fun, don't think you will make a ton of money fixing them, I learned that lesson with cars( i used to really like cars now I hate them). People demand that they get their $30,000 plus car fixed properly, and I agree, but when the dealerships and OEMs don't train or support their people properly its a diaster waiting to happen. Now cars are crossing all kinds of lines and the techs I know don't have a conception of what some of the things they are working with are(hybrids). There is a reason that they are always demanding good techs, mainly most either quite entirley or go open there own shop and make more (stil not much) money.
If you have a dream to start your own company then do yourself a favor and take some buisness classes. This is the biggest downfall to most new buisnesses that make a go of it full time. They get caught up in taxes etc, sell themselves short and loose money in the end. Always have a safety net to fall back on, in my case I could go get a welding job if need be(this from school). Don't do buisness with family unless you are 50%/50% owner nothing else, hireing friends and family is a bad idea, it never works out well unless they have been around since day one. That also plays into don't date people you work with, because sooner or later it will be a problem.

chris

Hey, as a bit of advice to someone who is making pretty much the same parts as you are. I purchased the x3 soon after it came to America through grizzly. I kept it manual until just recently. I really enjoyed just machining manually for quite some time before I decided to start a small business and cnc became a necessity. I converted my mill with the cncfusion ballscrew kit which is really nicely made and easy to install. I built my own electronics which, with all the reference material found on this site, was very easy. I now have the machine running and after a not so brief getting to know it period Im starting production after my broken leg heals. Motorbike accident. 2nd one. Good times. For prototyping the x3 has proven very adequate. Now to my point.

I would purchase the Industrial Hobbies mill if I could do it again. The work envelope is much larger, especially the y axis which is nearly twice as large, and its a much beefier mill from everything i've seen and heard compared to the x3. While now costing 600 dollars more since the presale is over, it's almost twice the machine. Plus the cnc kit from IH gets rave reviews and if you want to make a kit yourself it would be very easy to do. Especially with access to the cnc machinery at your job and school. Get the biggest machine you can afford and have room for and if you have to wait a bit more to get something much bigger, I would wait.

Do what you enjoy is deffinately true. I only have 2 classes to take next year to graduate so im probably gonna take 2 extra periods of machine shop and work a little more hours than I do now. Im going to MMI (motorcycle mechanics instution) when I graduate. I already can do almost everthing on motorcycle for myself already(not so good with transmission work). My big plan is to open up my own moto shop and eventually turn it into a dealership also selling some exotic bikes like TM, Hausaberg, Husqavarna, ect. as well as the major 5. If that deal doesn't work out I would love to be a mechanic on a race team or something like that. I will also be taking machining classes at my local college so I could be a machinest if my big goals aren't fulfilled cause you don't make much money being a mechanic at a dealer. And I don't want to be changing tires and oil for a living. Oh ya, and im also looking into what it takes to become a pilot cause that interests me a lot too but I don't know if I did well enough in high school to do that.

Hey, as a bit of advice to someone who is making pretty much the same parts as you are. I purchased the x3 soon after it came to America through grizzly. I kept it manual until just recently. I really enjoyed just machining manually for quite some time before I decided to start a small business and cnc became a necessity. I converted my mill with the cncfusion ballscrew kit which is really nicely made and easy to install. I built my own electronics which, with all the reference material found on this site, was very easy. I now have the machine running and after a not so brief getting to know it period Im starting production after my broken leg heals. Motorbike accident. 2nd one. Good times. For prototyping the x3 has proven very adequate. Now to my point.

I would purchase the Industrial Hobbies mill if I could do it again. The work envelope is much larger, especially the y axis which is nearly twice as large, and its a much beefier mill from everything i've seen and heard compared to the x3. While now costing 600 dollars more since the presale is over, it's almost twice the machine. Plus the cnc kit from IH gets rave reviews and if you want to make a kit yourself it would be very easy to do. Especially with access to the cnc machinery at your job and school. Get the biggest machine you can afford and have room for and if you have to wait a bit more to get something much bigger, I would wait.
pzzamakr
If you read further back we were trying to talk him into getting a bridgeport, IH seems good, I would wait a bit as they are under new ownership which has not even delivered there first mill yet.

supermoto do take some buisness classes, and find yourself a job with a small company(not in automotive) were you can gain some exeperince with "front" end.

I have recently come into some more money then I had to purchase this mill I might go with IH, or Tormach, not sure. I don't think I will do syil(they seem a little lack luster for there price which has steadly gone up), or I will still get a X3 and do a killer cnc conversion. My three big problems at the moment are snow, and lack amps at my plug-I don't own the place and I don't have a free breaker to run a new line, and getting it in the basement.

I also need to by the end of summer get a decent size lathe as my lathe guy will not be able to do it for me anymore. Very much need more room......

chris

Do you have a lathe yet? I would make that a priority over a mill. By being creative with a lathe you can do darned near everything that a mill can do but it just dosnt work the other way around.

If you have the space and your parents are truly behind you in this endeavor then look for a used CNC mill with dead controls. These can be found cheap to nothing at times and you will be so far ahead of the game. Hopefully the drives and motors will still be good if so pick up some Skyko pixies and you can get a working machine on the pretty cheap. They worked for me. I have maxed out machs 45khz limit at 270ipm at .0001" res. Now I have a Grex and well see how far I can push it.

And dont forget to save for tooling. The mill is the cheap part. You money will go to tooling.

I wasnt disagreeing with the bridgeport suggestion. My problem with a bridgeport was the weight and space. My x3 fits perfect on a bench I bought from lowes and i also have room on the same 15 foot wall to put another work bench with a lathe and a small tool cart and still have a bit of room. I realize the bridgeport would fit but then I wouldnt have the ability to put tools in the drawers of the bench. I think the IH is the sweet spot in terms of a machine that will fit in a garage with other stuff rather than a machine that will fit in the garage and then trying to fit other stuff. My own opinion. Plus, knowing the work that he is doing the IH would be more than enough. I also have no way of moving a bridgeport around because of its weight and the x3 I can actually move around. With two people you could move the IH mill around. This is not the case with a bridgeport as far as I have tried.
As far as Maconas opinion on getting a lathe first i have to disagree. I had my mill first and wouldnt have it any other way. I purchased a rotary table, I bought a cheap 150 dollar one and it works great with a tailstock on the mill for lathe type work. I think I may differ with Macona though in the saving for tooling thought. I would rather buy a great mill with decent tooling, such as endmills and such, and instead make sure to splurge with the mill.
However, unless im being super super lazy I usually use my lathe, I recommend the 8*14 lathemaster as being a great lathe and more than adequate for anything I have tried to do yet.
However, because I am very new to this and Macona seems to have more experience than I do I would probably take his suggestion on getting a lathe first. I did not have the setup know-how to fully take advantage of a lathe to do mill work. After a year of doing this I have gained quite a bit of knowledge in that area and often times I have used it to shorten a pieces production time.

Well with the IH machine you are not going to be able to go to lowes and get a table thats for sure(and I would think its more like 4 people to move it.)

The bridgeport is still cheaper(or can be) then going with IH mill which will run around 2700 with shipping. For someone on a budget you will more then likely get a usable(albiet maybe not the best) machine. Since hes got a whole garage to himself, I would go for the bridgeport, hes not lugging it into a basement(I have done that once, and I don't know how that person will ever get it back up) short of getting it home hes a step up from the benchtops. I would also imagine that hes got access to a trailer, or a larger pickup(although not enitrely safe).
Buying a junk machine out of the box is only inviting problems, esp if you have no way of telling how good it is. It might be an option down the road, but at 16, I doubt hes got the know how to tell a good machine from a worn out piece of crap. So if you buy a machine with junk spindle bearings or some other part that is exepensive or next to impossible to get, then all you will end up with is a couple tons of scrap iron and wasted money(unless it was free).

I agree about lathes first, its a natural progression, I would take it a step farther and say learn how to use a shaper, but since those are no longer considered "modern" they don't do that anymore. Lathes can do anything short of milling odd size pieces, with running lathes you tend to think out of the box a little more also. I am predisposed to learning things from the 40-50's as that was the golden age of doing things, they did it by hand and had good equipment. Also with lathes you can get a true round part wereas on a mill you will always have some chatter, and motor marks from interpolation/or a rotary table. It makes mounting bearings alot easier in a sleeve for example, or working with round or hex stock to do the above.

In the end I am glad he asked it shows hes got a good head on his shoulders, as when I was 16 I would have jumped first then asked questions, because anyone older then me was wrong, then again when I was 16 I would have never done this anyway. Kids these days....
chris

And dont get stuck on the bridgeport name. There are many manufacturers of turret knee mills (Name for BP type of mill) many of them just as good if not better than a BP. Wells Index is good and even some of the Taiwan makes are good. I have a supermax ycm-16vs and it is tight and smooth.

And there are many sizes of the turret knee mill. Burke and I think Rockwell made smaller versions as well as Clausing (8250 I think)

And make sure you buy american or name brand tooling. It really does make a difference.

I wow now im confused. I really don't think im gonna get a lathe first cause I don't have much use for just round parts and such. Whey you guys recommend the IH mill, are you guys talking about the manual or the CNC cause the cnc is almost 6K. Also, with the Bridgeport idea, I haven't seen any for sale that look any good and I wouldn't know how to convert one to cnc anyway. What i really would like in a mill is to have what I described before. A guy at my work said it is called manual data input. The cnc converted bridgeport at my school has it. Basicaly you select program on the screen and choose from a bunch of different operations (position drill, circle, arc, ect.) then you type in the dimensions and the starting and ending points, zero the mill on your part, and press go. For example, if you wanted to drill a bunch of hole in certain positions you would program the positions into the machine, then press go and the machine will go to the first position, then you manually plunge the spindle and make the drill, then press go again and it will go to the next position ect. I still haven't seen any Bridgeport mills for cheap like people say they are. Basically, from all that ive heard, here are my options and im really confuzed about which to get.

1. Bridgeport mill or comperable
2. Bridgeport mill and convert to cnc
3. Industrial hobbies
4. Industrial hobbies cnc
5. super x3 mill
6. Syil super x3

What do you thing of these options. I feel like im leaning towards the syil because it isn't too expensive and it is already converted and I don't know if I could convert one myself.

And dont get stuck on the bridgeport name. There are many manufacturers of turret knee mills (Name for BP type of mill) many of them just as good if not better than a BP. Wells Index is good and even some of the Taiwan makes are good. I have a supermax ycm-16vs and it is tight and smooth.

And there are many sizes of the turret knee mill. Burke and I think Rockwell made smaller versions as well as Clausing (8250 I think)

And make sure you buy american or name brand tooling. It really does make a difference.

Yeah I should have said that myself, bridgeport in my mind at least is a style more so then a specific name brand, sorta like a cresent wrench. Getting a "knee mill" (I still use bridgeport) will take more leg work then your new purchases. Mind you this is a used piece of equipment we are talking about here, so there are dangers, if you can, ask your teachers about places to get them. If they don't know start looking at auctions as I stated before, you can look in advertisements but you will find almost always they want alot more money that way. Ebay is hit or miss on equipment, like I said you can use it for a guide, but something that big will cost more then its worth to ship it. If I were to give you an idea about age of the equipment, I would say 10-15 years old at least, but that is so subjective, some machines are that old and have less hours on them then one which is 1 year old. Now one other thing is if you live were there is no manufacturing you might have a harder time. For me its natural but getting harder to find as I live in the milwaukee area so I live in the "machine shop of the world". I went to an auction about 2 years ago that they were getting more for a lot of milwaukee 3/8" hole shooter drills(around 6), then a whole bridgeport mill. One in particluar I remember was exactly what I said for you to get(belt drive hi-lo gear) and it went for under $200. It needed some TLC but it was tight as it never cut metal, only wood. Mind you this was a very large auction as they go and there were alot of bigger more valuable machines and well over a dozen smaller BP style mills. This may take some time also, auctions don't happen everyday, and sad to say they tend to be when the economy is in recesion not while things are flying along.
As for doing a bridgeport for cnc, it will cost more then a smaller square column thats for sure(mainly larger parts). Its really no different otherwise, you more then likely will not change out the screws, as they are normally just fine. There are several people who have done it on the web a small amount of research will lead you to these folks.

As for the last of your choices, you already know the prices, I would through into that mix Tormach, since its about the same as IH mill with CNC. Tormach seems to be better supported, and has alot tooling etc. A couple people have mentioned Ajax, i don't know much about them. When you buy something like this, you need to look not only at what you get out of the box, but what you need to buy in addtion to and what kind of support do they have. IH(at least the old owner) and Tormach seem to be just fine, Syil is ok, mainly from what I have read the langauge barrier is a problem. This should be prefaced by the fact I started my search of prebuilt machines with Syil(about 8 months ago).
As for the control end, your machine controller can do MDI, I suggest you go to the Artofcnc(by your age I assume you know how to run windows throughly) homepage and look at the video manuals if you can(need broadband) otherwise download the pdf manuals. Its alot of interesting reading, and you learn alot in the process. The biggest difference between what you are more then likely working with in school and the mach series is that you "hang on" this software, its not hardwired to the machine like most older cnc equipement. The mach series can also do all kinds of canned cycles, and has "wizards" which allow you to do pockets, surfacing etc.
It also has some limited CAM ablites if you have some CAD drawings.
And its able to use a keyboard emulator which you can add your own switches, and MPG wheels(manual pulse generators) so you are not tied to a mouse and keyboard.

Using a round figure of $5000 dolars total expenditure, this is what I would do. If you have more look at 2 & 3, less 1 & 5.

1. Bridgeport "knee" mill, get a cheap one, this would be an investment in the future. I would not spend more the $3000, including moving. You can convert it to cnc at your leasure. I would put a conseravtive esimate on CNC conversion if you have a spare computer at around $1500(thats not putting any screws in) most of that is tied up in stepper/servo motors. Don't foreget about power(amperage and phases) and moving.

2.IH sells the machine as an a means to use there CNC kits, not the other way around. They are tad pricey but everyone seems like the machines, I cannot say anything abou the new owner, so there is that to think about. You can get, the machine, then put what every you want on it(or their kit on another machine). Lathemaster sells a large machine also, similiar to the IH machine, but smaller then it.

3.Buying the IH and kit, a tormach, and Syil all seem to be around the same price in the end. Syil being the cheapest, but aslo the smallest. Really here you are looking at what you need, what you have to spend, and how much work you want to put into the machine to make it cnc. If I had 7K to spend It would be a Tormach, second IH, then syil-with a boat load of tooling.

5.The x3/super x3 is easy and quick, smaller, and they are cheaper, and you can save money in the long run vs syil. Learn how to do the cnc conversion, or buy it, they seem to me about a horse a piece for time and money. I am leaning to this at the moment, I can do it the way I want. I have issues with just about every kit I have seen, in one way shape or form none are "perfect". If you are not concerned about longevity or accuracy then a kit maybe for you. They are all using the same ballscrews, some mount funny others use odd motors, or controls, some don't use alot of votlage, some use homemade controls propritery to them,some use timing belts, some use couplings of which there a dozen choices. I look at things down the road when they break, can I get replacements and how easy?

I agree with macona about american tooling, but you can get carried away that also.

chris

Get the IH mill. It is a fantastic manual machine that can handle a lot. I was in this same quandary when I was purchasing mine as to whether I should get a bridgeport. Like yourself the great deals never were in my area or just werent that good of a deal.
I am talking about the manual IH mill. The cnc could be purchased at a later date or made yourself for less than the IH kit. However, the IH kit is a great setup. Supermoto, the final decision is always gonna be yours, but from someone who has the sieg, and for just a bit more for double the machine, i would do the IH. Now, i do really like the sieg machine and with the cncfusion kit and my own electronic setup it is considerably cheaper than an IH but it is also half the machine albeit a perfectly capable machine. As far as the lathe thing goes, I dont feel comfortable arguing with more experienced machinists but like I said earlier I would not purchase a lathe first. I would buy a mill.

Thanks in2steam. I am going to look at the artsoft videos tomorrow cause its too late now. Ive been thinking and ive decided that ill probably be happy with any mill I get so im not as worried about that decision. Im still gonna study hard before I make it but im not as stressed. What kind of switches could you add to the mach software, and what does an MPH wheel do? Thanks again

Get the IH mill. It is a fantastic manual machine that can handle a lot. I was in this same quandary when I was purchasing mine as to whether I should get a bridgeport. Like yourself the great deals never were in my area or just werent that good of a deal.
I am talking about the manual IH mill. The cnc could be purchased at a later date or made yourself for less than the IH kit. However, the IH kit is a great setup. Supermoto, the final decision is always gonna be yours, but from someone who has the sieg, and for just a bit more for double the machine, i would do the IH. Now, i do really like the sieg machine and with the cncfusion kit and my own electronic setup it is considerably cheaper than an IH but it is also half the machine albeit a perfectly capable machine. As far as the lathe thing goes, I dont feel comfortable arguing with more experienced machinists but like I said earlier I would not purchase a lathe first. I would buy a mill.

An IH mill would deffinately be cool cause its way begger and more versitile. And it looks like its probably tougher than the x3

If you really want CNC the cheapest way will be to buy something like an old BP Boss or Tree 325/425 or something along those lines with a dead control. Usually the motors and drives are OK still. If it has steppers like an old boss then you can use 3 geckos and throw on a decent PC and have a working machine, say ~$500 (3 Geckos, a breakout board, and a few odds and ends. You may even be able to reuse the power supply. If it has DC servos like mine you ca use Skykos pixies at $69 ea and add an encoder to each axis and again a decent computer and breakout board. This would be even cheaper than geckos. You keep you matched drives, amps, and power supplies. And you will have better performance then you could ever get with steppers and no lost steps. Since the machine is already CNC that means it will already have ball screws installed plus auto-oilers for the ways, coolant systems, and maybe power drawbar. This would all have to be added on any other mill.

Mechanically wise on my mill I have had to replace the thrust bearings on the ballscrews and have the taper on the spindle reground. Total about $400.

Converting a normal mill to CNC is really throwing away money. By the time you add everything like ballscrews, mounts, ect you have spent more than you could ever sell the mill for. Kind of like restoring an old car. Yes, it is a learning experience but the less time you spend screwing around with the machine and getting it to work is more time making stuff.

You have to look at this as an investment. You can always do tiny stuff on a big mill, not the other way around. And with a little mill you will never have the rigidity and therefore the finish or consistent accuracy of a larger mill. Its possible you may keep this mill for most of you life. If you truly are going to get into this field of work dont cut corners and get something you wont have to trade up from. You see it all the time people jumping from mill to mill always regretting they didnt buy a larger machine in the beginning.

As for finding a machine keep an eve out o craiglslist. Also call around to some of the local machine shops. I am sure one of them has on old hurco, BP, or something with a dead control they are willing to give you a deal on especially if you tell them your story.

Also pop on over to http://www.practicalmachinist.com and ask questions there. Lots of real machinists over there (The try to avoid the Home Shop Machining stuff)

If you really want CNC the cheapest way will be to buy something like an old BP Boss or Tree 325/425 or something along those lines with a dead control. Usually the motors and drives are OK still. If it has steppers like an old boss then you can use 3 geckos and throw on a decent PC and have a working machine, say ~$500 (3 Geckos, a breakout board, and a few odds and ends. You may even be able to reuse the power supply. If it has DC servos like mine you ca use Skykos pixies at $69 ea and add an encoder to each axis and again a decent computer and breakout board. This would be even cheaper than geckos. You keep you matched drives, amps, and power supplies. And you will have better performance then you could ever get with steppers and no lost steps. Since the machine is already CNC that means it will already have ball screws installed plus auto-oilers for the ways, coolant systems, and maybe power drawbar. This would all have to be added on any other mill.

Mechanically wise on my mill I have had to replace the thrust bearings on the ballscrews and have the taper on the spindle reground. Total about $400.

Converting a normal mill to CNC is really throwing away money. By the time you add everything like ballscrews, mounts, ect you have spent more than you could ever sell the mill for. Kind of like restoring an old car. Yes, it is a learning experience but the less time you spend screwing around with the machine and getting it to work is more time making stuff.

You have to look at this as an investment. You can always do tiny stuff on a big mill, not the other way around. And with a little mill you will never have the rigidity and therefore the finish or consistent accuracy of a larger mill. Its possible you may keep this mill for most of you life. If you truly are going to get into this field of work dont cut corners and get something you wont have to trade up from. You see it all the time people jumping from mill to mill always regretting they didnt buy a larger machine in the beginning.

As for finding a machine keep an eve out o craiglslist. Also call around to some of the local machine shops. I am sure one of them has on old hurco, BP, or something with a dead control they are willing to give you a deal on especially if you tell them your story.

Also pop on over to http://www.practicalmachinist.com and ask questions there. Lots of real machinists over there (The try to avoid the Home Shop Machining stuff)

Ok I thought you were talking about a VMC earlier, this is more along the lines of series II or something like that. Keep in mind I don't do mill machine repair, I was trained to do it, so I worked on some of this stuff, and here and again I do but there are so many varations on the theme out there. I did see something on pratical machinst about fellow selling a couple BP series II's for parts.

Sounds like he is using a vectrax or something similiar right now anyway.

Supermoto please read up and listen to everyone, most of the work I do is in a industrial well equiped enviroment. I don't repair mills(unless mine broke) I keep this up as a hobby, mostly using others equipment. The main reason I am getting into buying machinery now is that the persons whom I use there equipement/services are no longer able to help me with my parts.

chris

Ok I thought you were talking about a VMC earlier, this is more along the lines of series II or something like that. Keep in mind I don't do mill machine repair, I was trained to do it, so I worked on some of this stuff, and here and again I do but there are so many varations on the theme out there. I did see something on pratical machinst about fellow selling a couple BP series II's for parts.



Yeah, something like that but the Boss series of CNC mills used a fixed head, no tilt or nod so no worries of knocking it out of tram if you crash.

If you had the room for a VMC I would definitely go for it. I hear you can sometimes pick older models up for a song. Cheaper than a new tormach!

Speaking of tormach if you do get a machine with a R8 spindle I recommend the Tormach tool system. It makes tool changes so much easier. Fixed Z height too. I bought a set from a practicalmachinist member and I love it, Got 4 er-20 collet holder and 4 ea of 3/8 and 1/2 endmill holders. Plus drill chuck and other goodies.

Supermoto, where in the world are you? Your geographic location will affect the price of used equipment.

Yeah, something like that but the Boss series of CNC mills used a fixed head, no tilt or nod so no worries of knocking it out of tram if you crash.

If you had the room for a VMC I would definitely go for it. I hear you can sometimes pick older models up for a song. Cheaper than a new tormach!

Speaking of tormach if you do get a machine with a R8 spindle I recommend the Tormach tool system. It makes tool changes so much easier. Fixed Z height too. I bought a set from a practicalmachinist member and I love it, Got 4 er-20 collet holder and 4 ea of 3/8 and 1/2 endmill holders. Plus drill chuck and other goodies.

Supermoto, where in the world are you? Your geographic location will affect the price of used equipment.

Phil has me looking very closely at these after I say him talk about it the other day. The tool change system in general looks good, I would love to make a ATS for it, but hey one step at a time. If make this extra money I might just buy one instead of the X3.

chris

Over on LMS there is a guy that came out with a changer system based on the tormach system. He replaced the drawbar with a pneumatic released drawbar and then uses a mechanism mounted on the table itself to grab and change the tool holder. I might expand on his idea and make a head mounted changer that will fit on my full size mill.

Over on LMS there is a guy that came out with a changer system based on the tormach system. He replaced the drawbar with a pneumatic released drawbar and then uses a mechanism mounted on the table itself to grab and change the tool holder. I might expand on his idea and make a head mounted changer that will fit on my full size mill.

well I have seen a couple different styles, I am not fond of the table mounted ones, mainly because I(will) do alot of odd sized stuff. I was also thinking about using the quickrealease system I saw that makes a r8 size. It looks little flimsy but would work for most of what I do. Seems better then what I have seen thus far, the problem with most of you can get now is geting the tooling lines up coreectly.

www.hightechsystemsllc.com

I have not seen it on a r8 machine, only routers and taigs.
I would use either a head or base mounted system, use a rotary indexer driven by the modbus outputs through a spare PLC I have laying around. I want to enclose the whole machine so I figure its eaiser to do the ATS as quickly as possbile. The changer would have a air clyinder powered arm that swings the tool out of the holder, attached to it a second clyinder that clasps the collet release(somehow) and intergrate a head movement. That way its out of the way, and the tooling can be up high and covered from the swarf by a door or something similiar. They have a movie of a router using it, I figure if the speed the router turns is going to be nearly an force I would put on it. If I really need to do somethig heavy I can just take it out.

I have seen an ats system for the tormach setup, thru littlemachine shop I don't think that will work real well, but I have not seen it yet either though, very hard to line up straight shank tooling even if they put on a taper on the collet. but for a grand I can do better.....
chris

I have been studying for the past week or so and i think i know what im gonna do. Ill probably get the x3 in manual form and see how it works and how good it is. Then ill either convert it or get the syil. Ive been working on Mach3 and im starting to get it. Im gonna get american tooling. Heres the basic tools ill start with.

Basic set of 2 flute endmills
Basic set of 4 flute endmills
centerdrills
drill set
set of reamers
a cutter insert facemill


Ill start with this basic toolkit and get more tooling as i need it.

Centerdrills are for lathes. They are designed specifically for making the pilot hole a center from a lathe goes into. They are often mistakenly used on drill presses and mills. The chamfer angle is wrong and drills do not start correctly.

What you want are spotting drills. They are a very short drills with very little fluting at the standard drill point angles. Or if you use split point drills you can usually get away without spotting before hand.

Be prepared to spend over $100 for a drill set. Get a full set of letters, numbers and fractionals. Get USA made bits, the chinese stuff is usually only good for wood, plastic, and soft aluminum.

Forget the face mill. You wont have the HP or rigidity to properly use one. A flycutter using a HSS cutter will do you good. Also stay away from carbide tooling in general. You will be limited to smaller endmills on this machine and you cant push them as fast as you need to push them to be efficient. HSS or Cobalt is the best choice for a home shop. Less chipping, cheaper, tougher, and usually sharper than carbide.

I would say skip the two flutes and go for three and four. Threes will be good for aluminum and leave a better finish than two flutes and fours are good in general. You will probably want centercutting too. Again buy name brands (Niagra, ect) I have some chinese endmills and they arent worth much. They came with some other stuff I bought and glad I didnt pay for them.

Your reamers wont get a whole lot of use, instead invest in a small boring head and HSS boring bars, again not carbide. I got a 2" criterion with a r8 arbor, a keyless drill chuck, and 5 of those chinese end mills for about $115 off ebay a while back as a lot. Make sure the boring head is 2" or less as there is not much mass in that mill and a larger head will make it shake!

Thats something else that is nice to have, a keyless chuck. Mine is from taiwan and it is pretty darned good. Albrechts are some of the best and they are all of over ebay.

Just make sure you get the version of the x3 with the R8 spindle.

Centerdrills are for lathes. They are designed specifically for making the pilot hole a center from a lathe goes into. They are often mistakenly used on drill presses and mills. The chamfer angle is wrong and drills do not start correctly....

Surely, you must be kidding?

If not, I can't believe that is accurate.

It seems best to capture the outside of the flutes on a drill bit 1st, to get it centered before cutting any deeper.

DON'T have a drill bit slam into a 118d "pilot hole" & expect it to not wander as it starts drilling.

Also, with rough castings a center drill seems virtually essential.

Otherwise, your recommendations seem quite good.

Centerdrills are for lathes. They are designed specifically for making the pilot hole a center from a lathe goes into. They are often mistakenly used on drill presses and mills. The chamfer angle is wrong and drills do not start correctly.

I would say skip the two flutes and go for three and four. Threes will be good for aluminum and leave a better finish than two flutes and fours are good in general. You will probably want centercutting too. Again buy name brands (Niagra, ect) I have some chinese endmills and they arent worth much. They came with some other stuff I bought and glad I didnt pay for them.

Your reamers wont get a whole lot of use, instead invest in a small boring head and HSS boring bars, again not carbide. I got a 2" criterion with a r8 arbor, a keyless drill chuck, and 5 of those chinese end mills for about $115 off ebay a while back as a lot. Make sure the boring head is 2" or less as there is not much mass in that mill and a larger head will make it shake!



Supermoto,
Yes you can use center drills to spot, I do it all the time for lack of a better way. You should use spotting drills, but if you do(use centerdrills), don't go very deep. I agree that you will get no use out of your reamers, untill you know exactly what size you need, I would just order those as demaned, its cheaper. A boring head will not be as accurate as a reamer, but it will be close. As far as mills, just buy a 2-4 flute kit to start out with, you will need to get used to your mill for a bit, those run around $40-$50. I also agree that a facemill won't work real well, a flycutter(s) would be better. HSS tooling bits would be your best bet, with a little practice you get a real decent finish. I don't completly agree with USA tooling, I bought a nicer set of HF HSS TiN drills(letter,number,fractional) around $40 and they preform better then the supposed to be usa ones I use at work.(althought the machine is not the best). The simple reason is that untill you get dialed in you will break stuff, why break expensive bits, untill you are ready to really crank out parts then you can buy what you need. If you decide to upgrade to a BP later on then most of this tooling will work. This machine does not have the power of the BP you used in school, you have to think smaller diameter on alot of your tooling. I agree with staying away from carbide, untill maybe you get to a dedicated production, after you have cnc'd then you will need the better wearing and hopefully program it to run properly. I would think about a coolant system, that will help finish and tool wear considerably.

chris

No, I am completely serious about center drills. It is a common misconception. Really the last thing you want to do is catch the sides first. this can easily pull the drill off to one side.

Here is one short thread of many that mentions this:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/26446.html?

Boring heads can be just as accurate as reamers, just maybe not the same surface finish. After all that was the primary tool in a jig-bore and those ran tenths all day.

I bought one of the $40 sets and regretted it. Nothing can beat a set of NY Twist, Huot, ect.

Get the right tools from the start and you will be used to doing things correctly. Been there done that. And buy extra. Drill, inserts, toolbits are consumables and they WILL break. Nothing worse than working on a project at 9pm on a sunday and break a tap that you dont have a spare for.

When you do get your machine you will want to go through it. There are several sites on this and how to tune it up and tram it.

Other items you WILL need: 1" dial indicator with mag base. Test indicator with an indicol type holder (.001 will be good enough, .0005 best, .0001 too sensitive). I recommend interapid. 0-1 and 1-2 mike, 6 or 8" dial or digi caliper, set of 1-2-3 blocks, set of parallels, a good vice, clamp kit.

As for coolant a spray bottle. If your doing aluminum WD-40 makes a great cutting fluid. Flood is not necessary in a home shop unless its cnc. Mist systems like the trico and bijur are most frugal with air, the cheap koolmist units suck a lot of air and create more airborne mist. I use the koolmist 77 as my coolant. Pick up a bottle of tapmagic as well.

Remember to buy good quality as these tools can last you a lifetime. Dont go too crazy on calipers though, the Mitutoyo coolant proof ones are nice but it seems that the chinese ones are just as accurate and you wont feel so bad when you DO drop them.

Also look into one of the cheap DRO systems. A dro makes life easier, especially with the uncertainty of the leadscrews on a mill like this.

Boring heads can be just as accurate as reamers, just maybe not the same surface finish. After all that was the primary tool in a jig-bore and those ran tenths all day.

I bought one of the $40 sets and regretted it. Nothing can beat a set of NY Twist, Huot, ect.

Get the right tools from the start and you will be used to doing things correctly. Been there done that. And buy extra. Drill, inserts, toolbits are consumables and they WILL break. Nothing worse than working on a project at 9pm on a sunday and break a tap that you dont have a spare for.

When you do get your machine you will want to go through it. There are several sites on this and how to tune it up and tram it.

Other items you WILL need: 1" dial indicator with mag base. Test indicator with an indicol type holder (.001 will be good enough, .0005 best, .0001 too sensitive). I recommend interapid. 0-1 and 1-2 mike, 6 or 8" dial or digi caliper, set of 1-2-3 blocks, set of parallels, a good vice, clamp kit.

As for coolant a spray bottle. If your doing aluminum WD-40 makes a great cutting fluid. Flood is not necessary in a home shop unless its cnc. Mist systems like the trico and bijur are most frugal with air, the cheap koolmist units suck a lot of air and create more airborne mist. I use the koolmist 77 as my coolant. Pick up a bottle of tapmagic as well.

Remember to buy good quality as these tools can last you a lifetime. Dont go too crazy on calipers though, the Mitutoyo coolant proof ones are nice but it seems that the chinese ones are just as accurate and you wont feel so bad when you DO drop them.

Also look into one of the cheap DRO systems. A dro makes life easier, especially with the uncertainty of the leadscrews on a mill like this.

What do you mean my going through my machine? I already have a lot of measuring instruments. What is a DRO system.

in2steam I will deffinately get a cheap set of tooling especially for when i first have my mill and im getting my speeds and feeds right. You got yours at harbor freight?

Think of a chinese mill as a kit. Some RE-assembly required.

This could be going through and cleaning any sand left in the castings, making adjustments, lubrication, ect. Maybe even so far as lapping the ways as well.

DRO is Digital Read Out. Shows on a display the current coordinates of the location of the spindle. For a mill three axis's. X, Y, and Z. There are several cheap systems on the market using the cheap chinese dro slides. I think shumatech is one.

And please dont buy cheap tooling. You are not dealing with cnc here so as long as you stay with no more then half depth vs width and watch your RPM you will be fine. The spindle on the x3 isnt fast enough to worry for most things. Thats like buying a dull chisel to practice woodcarving.

Remember GIGO... Garbage In Garbage Out

Think of a chinese mill as a kit. Some RE-assembly required.

This could be going through and cleaning any sand left in the castings, making adjustments, lubrication, ect. Maybe even so far as lapping the ways as well.

DRO is Digital Read Out. Shows on a display the current coordinates of the location of the spindle. For a mill three axis's. X, Y, and Z. There are several cheap systems on the market using the cheap chinese dro slides. I think shumatech is one.

And please dont buy cheap tooling. You are not dealing with cnc here so as long as you stay with no more then half depth vs width and watch your RPM you will be fine. The spindle on the x3 isnt fast enough to worry for most things. Thats like buying a dull chisel to practice woodcarving.

Remember GIGO... Garbage In Garbage Out
Macona
Alright, first off, i said in a pinch a center drill will work, I don't have a conception as how if its mounted in a chuck, or collet even, how it willl catch the sides and be off center. In a lathe the material is spinning, on mill the bit is spinning, same process, same effect(if you are offcenter in a lathe you will get a cam/taper). I have on a regular basis drilled 30 holes on .5 center everysingle one done with the center drill in a mill in a chuck was exactly on. I don't drill the hole with them I just spot them, the whole point of a center drill is to get a good solid point for a center, yes it not the right degree for a twist drill, but it accomplishes the same thing as center punching. Are the holes perfect, no, they are not reamed, but in an x-y plane they are were they need to be. Again not desired but it works, ideally I would have the proper spot drill, but since I am in MRO I don't have a fully stocked machine shop(I am lucky if I have a full drill index some days) and the center drill is mine from home.

Second an X3, for the most part does not need to be "re-assmebled" per say. It will need to be cleaned of cosmo yes , at that point some people have completely disaamebled them, and from what I have seen they did not need to except for moving them. These are not the jet 9x20 lathes which need to be rebuilt out of the box cleaned and deflashed. You can check the tram, I have not heard of anyone needing to adjust it, not to mention you would have to shim it if you cannont do it with the gibs.

Third, you always buy dull chisels, it against the law to ship a sharp tool in the mail, unless you are really lucky and you store sharpens them you will never get a sharp wood chisel(I make plane blades and restore wood planes and chisels). That aside, I said buy cheap tooling first, its always nice to have that cheap tool around for pierceing that hardspot in a casting,weld or hard steel. The HF drill index I bought lists for $70, its not bad, its not perfect but I have yet to sharpen any save the 1/4 becuase of operator error. Now to compare, a Hout case is $40 alone, if you were to buy a HSS TiN 29 pc you would be paying $120, for the 115 pc in only black oxide for Chicago-latrobe is $199. The cobalt 115pc is $370 from CL and over $500 for a PTD. I am not saying they are worth it, I am saying start small, replace what you break with some nicer stuff, like cleveland-twist. YES they do work better and last longer, but you can also feel real bad when you break that drill bit diving through a weld thats nearly as hard as rock, if I have resharpen a cheap bit no big deal, or breaking it oh well. As for sunday morning I am sleeping, but if I was doing that I would go to Sears, or my hardware store. Or modify what i have, if I can, broken drill make all kinds of great tools, so do dull files.

Supermoto, invest in what you can afford, I have often gone out and bought the best I can find and regretted in the end when I don't use it to its fullest or at all. A DRO in IMHO is a waste, if you are considering going to CNC it would be not be needed, and you can make a poor mans DRO(just a cheap caliper mounted to the axies) untill such a time that you need it no longer. I have 2 machines(a shaper and screw machine) now that I have done this on and it works just fine. I have them taper pinned so I just pull them out when they are in the way or needed else were. You will find that a good, old mic(something on the order of 20+ years) is always good, they are stable and tend to be very repeatable. Calipers nowadays are almost disposable, I just bought 3 el cheapos for under $50 for the my poor mans DRO. Macona was right about 1-2-3 blocks, I fogot those because I have made my own, a good set thin parallels would be handy for me, the thick ones tend to get in my way but that would depend upon what you are doing. My experience with boring heads is very limited, so I have to take Macona's advice, but I was told that reams are the best way to get accurate holes, esp under 1/2". Since I have a lathe I do all of my(very small amount) of boring on it. A good indicator, like a B&S bestest with .030 or so movement will be very handy for traming and high precsion stuff. I have a mist system on my mill at work and have opted for the hand spray method, I only turn it on when I get alot of small swarf(air only). But also since that RF is a pain to switch speeds its pretty much always in low speed, so squirting and brushing is easy. At home the plan is for flood, once the blasted thing gets here. A set of good files(I don't believe you can have too many), stones, countersinks, transfer punchs and prick punches are all very handy.


Chris

Think of a chinese mill as a kit. Some RE-assembly required.

This could be going through and cleaning any sand left in the castings, making adjustments, lubrication, ect. Maybe even so far as lapping the ways as well.

DRO is Digital Read Out. Shows on a display the current coordinates of the location of the spindle. For a mill three axis's. X, Y, and Z. There are several cheap systems on the market using the cheap chinese dro slides. I think shumatech is one.

And please dont buy cheap tooling. You are not dealing with cnc here so as long as you stay with no more then half depth vs width and watch your RPM you will be fine. The spindle on the x3 isnt fast enough to worry for most things. Thats like buying a dull chisel to practice woodcarving.

Remember GIGO... Garbage In Garbage Out


That is already done on the syil cnc mill. I would deffinately go through the manual x3 a little bit. If I got the syil I would be running it with Mach3 and it already has a DRO. Is this not as accurate? and the syil goes up to 3700 rpm which isn't crazy fast but its not to slow.




Third, you always buy dull chisels, it against the law to ship a sharp tool in the mail, unless you are really lucky and you store sharpens them you will never get a sharp wood chisel(I make plane blades and restore wood planes and chisels). That aside, I said buy cheap tooling first, its always nice to have that cheap tool around for pierceing that hardspot in a casting,weld or hard steel. The HF drill index I bought lists for $70, its not bad, its not perfect but I have yet to sharpen any save the 1/4 becuase of operator error. Now to compare, a Hout case is $40 alone, if you were to buy a HSS TiN 29 pc you would be paying $120, for the 115 pc in only black oxide for Chicago-latrobe is $199. The cobalt 115pc is $370 from CL and over $500 for a PTD. I am not saying they are worth it, I am saying start small, replace what you break with some nicer stuff, like cleveland-twist. YES they do work better and last longer, but you can also feel real bad when you break that drill bit diving through a weld thats nearly as hard as rock, if I have resharpen a cheap bit no big deal, or breaking it oh well. As for sunday morning I am sleeping, but if I was doing that I would go to Sears, or my hardware store. Or modify what i have, if I can, broken drill make all kinds of great tools, so do dull files.

Supermoto, invest in what you can afford, I have often gone out and bought the best I can find and regretted in the end when I don't use it to its fullest or at all. A DRO in IMHO is a waste, if you are considering going to CNC it would be not be needed, and you can make a poor mans DRO(just a cheap caliper mounted to the axies) untill such a time that you need it no longer. I have 2 machines(a shaper and screw machine) now that I have done this on and it works just fine. I have them taper pinned so I just pull them out when they are in the way or needed else were. You will find that a good, old mic(something on the order of 20+ years) is always good, they are stable and tend to be very repeatable. Calipers nowadays are almost disposable, I just bought 3 el cheapos for under $50 for the my poor mans DRO. Macona was right about 1-2-3 blocks, I fogot those because I have made my own, a good set thin parallels would be handy for me, the thick ones tend to get in my way but that would depend upon what you are doing. My experience with boring heads is very limited, so I have to take Macona's advice, but I was told that reams are the best way to get accurate holes, esp under 1/2". Since I have a lathe I do all of my(very small amount) of boring on it. A good indicator, like a B&S bestest with .030 or so movement will be very handy for traming and high precsion stuff. I have a mist system on my mill at work and have opted for the hand spray method, I only turn it on when I get alot of small swarf(air only). But also since that RF is a pain to switch speeds its pretty much always in low speed, so squirting and brushing is easy. At home the plan is for flood, once the blasted thing gets here. A set of good files(I don't believe you can have too many), stones, countersinks, transfer punchs and prick punches are all very handy.


Chris

I would deffinately like some more info on the caliper dro thing. and if I got the syil i would get it with the flood coolant upgrade. If i get manual Ill probably do cutting fluid, spay coolant, wd40 or whatever.

That is already done on the syil cnc mill. I would deffinately go through the manual x3 a little bit. If I got the syil I would be running it with Mach3 and it already has a DRO. Is this not as accurate? and the syil goes up to 3700 rpm which isn't crazy fast but its not to slow.



I would deffinately like some more info on the caliper dro thing. and if I got the syil i would get it with the flood coolant upgrade. If i get manual Ill probably do cutting fluid, spay coolant, wd40 or whatever.

The poormans DRO is very simple, you take your average run of the mill cheap digital caliper, drill a hole in each of the teeth, bolt, glue, taper pin, how ever you like to the axis and something thats not moving on the same plane(no angles). I am not sure on the X3 yet, and more then likely you won't get full travel on the table and head.
I did it on my shaper and I lost about 1" of table travel, I tried it on the ram but its hard to see and I no londger have that head as its been replaced.

You can buy the scales also, just do a search on DRO and you should come up with links. The DRO's I have seen also can have a readout which you can mount, again kinda a waste if you use mach3. Mach3 is as accurate as you program it and as the machine can be, the more accurate the screws and stepper/servo system is the better it will be. Servos with closed loop feedback are more accurate and have more power at high speed for anygiven size compared to a stepper. Steppers are cheaper, and easier to setup, they are good at slow speed, they lose torque as they speed up, most people find steppers a good choice for this machine size. Mach can run either equally well its just harder to setup servos the first time you run it. Syil's HS spindle is an upgrade in the motor controler from what i can tell you get now, no choice. Flood coolant has a down side as it very messy and you need shielding around the machine, and all wires must be incased. WD40 works OK, but you have to use the stuff in a gallon can not the spray can, they react to the air different. I just use water and some light cutting oil 90% of the time on a mill, again I don't go real fast. Again that also depends upon what I am doing, I ran some copper and used milk to help with the finish.



chris

With new drill bits there isnt a problem usually with using a center drill to start a bit. But if the bit has been sharpen by hand and the grind is uneven one flute can dig in an pull the drill to one side. Of course this can happen just as easy with a spotting drill.

Ebay is one of the best places to buy tooling. I never said buy new. Virtually none of my equipment is new. Right now I see one Huot 115pc set for $88. Cant beat that unless some one bids it up the wazoo...

I have one of the 6" chinese scales from Shars on the quill of my mill. They make life easier. I would just get three of these and skip the central display for now. Shars is a chinese importer but that do have some decent stuff. They are on ebay under the name "discount machine" Good customer service although their web site (http://www.shars.com) needs serious updating.

With new drill bits there isnt a problem usually with using a center drill to start a bit. But if the bit has been sharpen by hand and the grind is uneven one flute can dig in an pull the drill to one side. Of course this can happen just as easy with a spotting drill.

Ebay is one of the best places to buy tooling. I never said buy new. Virtually none of my equipment is new. Right now I see one Huot 115pc set for $88. Cant beat that unless some one bids it up the wazoo...

I have one of the 6" chinese scales from Shars on the quill of my mill. They make life easier. I would just get three of these and skip the central display for now. Shars is a chinese importer but that do have some decent stuff. They are on ebay under the name "discount machine" Good customer service although their web site (http://www.shars.com) needs serious updating.

OK, very true, next to nothing I have is new execpt for my pariashables, and even alot of that is from lots included with stuff I bought. I never really thought about looking on ebay for bits, just holders and parts.

chris

Ok im gonna ask a dumb question. What are 1 2 3 blocks really for. The only thing i have used them for is ligning up band saw cuts.

Ok im gonna ask a dumb question. What are 1 2 3 blocks really for. The only thing i have used them for is ligning up band saw cuts.

I think it has alot to do with your training, I made a set for what ever reason and have only used them a handfull of times and most of those were for non-machine tool apps. Most people use them for mounting and clamping, but they are nice for setups also. Funny thing is I made a few things but was never really taught to use them, of course this was not a course designed for MTO, it was maintenance so its a different realm. I have found parallels, delrin,UHMW, and scrap pieces more usefull, again I am not a normall machinst or tool and die guy.


Chris

Hi I'm new here.

There is a wealth of information in these forums and it has helped my decision on which mill to purchase. Looks like I will be purchasing an x2 from one of the mentioned online sellers, as it will meet my needs for the size work I will be doing. Plus the capability of retrofitting it for cnc will be nice down the road. One thing that I have noticed, the advertised spindle taper at Harbor and Cummins is R8 and then over at Grizzly and MicroLux it's MT3. Also advertised HP is 4/5 at Harbor, 3/4 at MicroLux, Cummins and Grizzly. Not a big issue on the HP, but spindle taper does matter more to some degree. Any suggestions or comments as to why the difference? Or is there some room from the manufacturer for a certain amount of customization by their customers? Or maybe a typo? :) Along that line, any real difference between the various sellers mills?

Cummins has the better deal, but must find out on the shipping cost as it could be a wash with a purchase from one of the other sellers. I will have to call Cummins to find out on shipping, since I'm not going to make the order then find out shipping is way too much. Since they can't give any cost online.

Thanx for this forum being here, almost takes me back to my former life. :)
Just an old, well maybe not that old, ex-aerospace machine shop guy turned luthier.

Hi I'm new here.

There is a wealth of information in these forums and it has helped my decision on which mill to purchase. Looks like I will be purchasing an x2 from one of the mentioned online sellers, as it will meet my needs for the size work I will be doing. Plus the capability of retrofitting it for cnc will be nice down the road. One thing that I have noticed, the advertised spindle taper at Harbor and Cummins is R8 and then over at Grizzly and MicroLux it's MT3. Also advertised HP is 4/5 at Harbor, 3/4 at MicroLux, Cummins and Grizzly. Not a big issue on the HP, but spindle taper does matter more to some degree. Any suggestions or comments as to why the difference? Or is there some room from the manufacturer for a certain amount of customization by their customers? Or maybe a typo? :) Along that line, any real difference between the various sellers mills?

Cummins has the better deal, but must find out on the shipping cost as it could be a wash with a purchase from one of the other sellers. I will have to call Cummins to find out on shipping, since I'm not going to make the order then find out shipping is way too much. Since they can't give any cost online.

Thanx for this forum being here, almost takes me back to my former life. :)
Just an old, well maybe not that old, ex-aerospace machine shop guy turned luthier.

I don't know about the x2 for sure, but there are many misprints on the x3, namely the table sizes being wrong. They are all the exact same machine, and to my knowledge they are all(x2's) MT3, but I could be wrong I think they say jt#33. Some resellers fudge the numbers, and a few cases plain old lie, but you are splitting hairs the difference between 4/5 and 3/4 hp and if any thing its lower then both.
cummins and homier are both around the same price, I would worry about what you get and alteast with the x3 and c6 lathe they knick you pretty good on shipping. As of about 3 weeks ago, for the x3 grizzly had the best deal with shipping, by about $5 over HF and there service is alot better.

Chris

Hi I'm new here.

<snip> Looks like I will be purchasing an x2 from one of the mentioned online sellers, as it will meet my needs for the size work I will be doing. Plus the capability of retrofitting it for cnc will be nice down the road. One thing that I have noticed, the advertised spindle taper at Harbor and Cummins is R8 and then over at Grizzly and MicroLux it's MT3. <snip>


JC,

The HF X2 definitely comes with an R8 spindle. The LittleMachineShop sells R8 spindle replacements for those that come with morse taper. I have no idea why the difference at least on those sold in the USA. Maybe they figure guys that have minilathes will want the MT3 taper on the mill as well. I bought the HF X2 rather than the Grizzly because I couldn't see paying more for the Grizzly and then having to buy a replacement spindle just to get started, plus I had a 20 percent of coupon for HF when I bought mine. It was also on sale and those together saved me a little over $100.

Alan

Thank you Alan and Chris for the info and suggestions.
I called HF, Cummins, and Grizzly.

HF is back ordered with no date as to when they will be receiving more. They had a good price $470 and the shipping would be around $62.

Cummins had them for $399 but the shipping would be $160.

MicroMark was $525 plus about $85 for shipping. Didn't call them to see if they were in stock.

Grizzly has them in stock right now $525 plus $73 shipping.

After more research and reading more around here, and since there isn't any real difference from one to the next ...
I ended up ordering the Grizzly, I've heard good things about their service and that they have a good rep standing behind what they sell. Which swayed my decision and thought it would be worth the extra $50 - $60. I will just have to live with the morse taper for the moment. It's not a great big deal, but sometime down the road I will retrofit to the R8 at some point.

This message board has become a regular stop. Lots of good advice and info.

JC,

If you think you want the R8, it is better to go ahead and spring for the new spindle before you spend a bunch of money on MT3 tooling. One real advantage to R8 is if you ever move to a larger machine (such as X3, RF45 or Bridgeport), chances are it will be R8. I have an RF30 mill drill so I can share tooling between the two machines.

I am a Grizzly fan also. My 9x20 and my RF30 are both Grizzly.

Alan

Thank you Alan and Chris for the info and suggestions.
I called HF, Cummins, and Grizzly.

HF is back ordered with no date as to when they will be receiving more. They had a good price $470 and the shipping would be around $62.

Cummins had them for $399 but the shipping would be $160.

MicroMark was $525 plus about $85 for shipping. Didn't call them to see if they were in stock.

Grizzly has them in stock right now $525 plus $73 shipping.

After more research and reading more around here, and since there isn't any real difference from one to the next ...
I ended up ordering the Grizzly, I've heard good things about their service and that they have a good rep standing behind what they sell. Which swayed my decision and thought it would be worth the extra $50 - $60. I will just have to live with the morse taper for the moment. It's not a great big deal, but sometime down the road I will retrofit to the R8 at some point.

This message board has become a regular stop. Lots of good advice and info.

I too ordered a grizzly sx3 but I am still waiting, now that I have its table all done no thanks to "global warming"(its been under freezing here too long) I can not wait much longer and may cancel and go with the regular x3.
I wish I could have helped you more with the x2 but I ruled that out as being to small once I saw the x3 and fell in love. So all my research has been on x3's and sx3's(and IH machines) and now c6 lathes.

chris