I am thinking about building a new coolant table for my benchtop mill - with a bit more room for something rather larger than my Super X1-L. Ideally I would like to also reduce the noise and vibration produced during milling for both my and my neighbours' sakes!

The options that spring to mind are:

A) Sit the mill on vibration reducing mounts on top of the coolant tray

B) Bolt the mill down to the table through the coolant tray and stand the table on anti-vibration mounts.

C) Bolt/Stand the mill on something heavy (e.g. concrete bricks) on top of the coolant tray and stand the table on anti-vibration mounts.

I don't really have much idea what would be best in terms of vibration damping, but I don't like B) because it perforates the coolant tray, and I really don't want to be crawling around searching for leaks under a heavily loaded table!

I know it's good practice to bolt the mill down to something heavy, but does it have to be the table itself - the table isn't that heavy at all?

Any suggestions would be most appreciated.

Cheers.

I am thinking about building a new coolant table for my benchtop mill - with a bit more room for something rather larger than my Super X1-L. Ideally I would like to also reduce the noise and vibration produced during milling for both my and my neighbours' sakes!

The options that spring to mind are:

A) Sit the mill on vibration reducing mounts on top of the coolant tray

B) Bolt the mill down to the table through the coolant tray and stand the table on anti-vibration mounts.

C) Bolt/Stand the mill on something heavy (e.g. concrete bricks) on top of the coolant tray and stand the table on anti-vibration mounts.

I don't really have much idea what would be best in terms of vibration damping, but I don't like B) because it perforates the coolant tray, and I really don't want to be crawling around searching for leaks under a heavily loaded table!

I know it's good practice to bolt the mill down to something heavy, but does it have to be the table itself - the table isn't that heavy at all?

Any suggestions would be most appreciated.

Cheers.

A heavily loaded table that is light weight sounds like most of your vibration problem right there. Damping is only as good as the surface to which you mount, IHMO if you bolt through a light duty table its still going to vibrate, if you mount pads on the table feet you may absorb most of the vibration depending upon how solid the legs and mounts for the legs. In the end you may need either a heavy table or a more rigid machine. I would/am going to on my new mill use a utlity basin tray and drill holes through it and use double studded mounts. Mind you i am reinforcing the 10 ga steel top with 2x4's under it in order to make it more rigid and heavy and putting leveling mounts on the floor.

Thanks for replying.

My current table/enclosure is probaly about 30-40kg, and my machine is about 50kg with a vice on it. I'm guessing my next machine will be in the 100kg range.

I am unfortunately a bit limited as to the materials I can build a table with as I can't weld anywhere and my mill lives indoors on the first floor. My current table is wood/MDF, and I am trying to decide between 80/20 for ease of construction and rigidity or more wood and MDF.

I have had a look at Tormach's DIY wood/plywood table, which seems pretty sturdy even though it is a fraction of the mills 1100lbs. Do you think there would be any benefit in building something similar, but adding an array of concrete blocks just below the table surface - rather like the granite slabs in a pool table?

Thanks for replying.

My current table/enclosure is probaly about 30-40kg, and my machine is about 50kg with a vice on it. I'm guessing my next machine will be in the 100kg range.

I am unfortunately a bit limited as to the materials I can build a table with as I can't weld anywhere and my mill lives indoors on the first floor. My current table is wood/MDF, and I am trying to decide between 80/20 for ease of construction and rigidity or more wood and MDF.

I have had a look at Tormach's DIY wood/plywood table, which seems pretty sturdy even though it is a fraction of the mills 1100lbs. Do you think there would be any benefit in building something similar, but adding an array of concrete blocks just below the table surface - rather like the granite slabs in a pool table?

Well if I remember correctly its about 2lbs to every kilo so you have a table of around 60 pounds holding a machine of a 100 or so pounds. The weight in of itself is not what you always need to look at. Rigid construction is more important than anything else. I have 80/20 and its not rigid(at joints), similiar materials can be used to make a soild table construction without doubt but 80/20 is more suited to light duty uses like enclosures(its why I have some). If you cannot weld, I would recommend using wood(4"x4" and 2"x4" douglas fir is always sturdy), if you do some studying and with a little elbow grease you can make a very nice sturdy rigid table. Ideally you would have some steel in it esp the legs and table top, becuase wood will move around alot esp with temp humidity changes. Wood will absorb alot of vibration, the problem being is in time it will loosen its joints. When I was taught how to set large machines early on they used wood cribs to keep the machines stable they then would often pour concrete base slab then motar for the final level and tucking. Loose rocks in the table will be of little value if they themselfs are not tied down or together very tightly to make one solid mass which is then tied to the machine and the floor. I built a 4x4 2x4 table earlier this year with an 1.25" MDFcore laminate table top that was used for around $25 in wood and I bought a $30 3" box of wood lag screws. It does not move when I pound on it with a hammer and chisel. You really need to make sure that were the table meets the legs there are not unsupported right angles. Use gussets at all the corners, and I would say most importantly have leveling feet capable of taking all the weight plus 100% that would provide a comfortable margin. My only draw back to my table as it sits right now is that the cement it sits on is not level and I have not put leveling feet unto it so it wobbles when weight is applied in the right spots. leveling feet will be able to compensate for floor uneveness, I use three point method most of the time, never adjusting the fourth leg after firming it up. In the end you want the table one with the machine and the table one with the floor, if its on a finished wood floor you might need to consider rubber mats or pads.
I cannot comment of hte tormach table as I have not seen one, your machine is smaller then then the ones I use and the one I hope to purchase very soon, I am preparing a steel table with steel legs, and adding pine 2"x4" underneath for support and damping. Leveling may be tough and I might have to add additional gussets to the main steel legs as they only mount at 90 degrees to the top surface, so left and right motions from the front maybe problematic. Welding in my case would be prefered but I am afraid that I cannot weld the steel legs, so I may have to bolt them on. I would surf the net and look at what other people have done for there tables.

regards
chris

Well, I've built my new table/stand, and while it is very stiff it does actually resonate at the frequencies produced by the steppers :(

I have mounted my mill on some 12mm thick rubber vibration damping sheet, which does help and I've lined the underside of the table with some soundproofing sheet, but it's still a bit loud for my liking.

Does anyone have any ideas for vibration reducing mounts that will absorb lateral vibrations? I think the rubber is doing a good job of absorbing vertical vibrations, but not lateral ones.

It is quite possible that this might cease to be an issue with my new machine as it is going to use servos and weigh over 200kg/400lb, but I'd still like to have some decent vibration damping feet if possible.

Cheers.

Oh, Lord help you! :)

Some nice isolation mounts and ideas can be had from the Lord company.
Check 'em out @ http://www.lord.com/tabid/3438/Default.aspx

Pres

Oh, Lord help you! :)

Some nice isolation mounts and ideas can be had from the Lord company.
Check 'em out @ http://www.lord.com/tabid/3438/Default.aspx

Pres

Thanks Pres - some interesting ideas on there - basically it looks like I need to bolt my mill to a wobbly-jelly on each corner to stop the vibration being transmitted to my table. I don't really want to spend too much more on the table, so I might try hacking up some of this 1/2" rubber sheet I have.

Well, I've built my new table/stand, and while it is very stiff it does actually resonate at the frequencies produced by the steppers :(

I have mounted my mill on some 12mm thick rubber vibration damping sheet, which does help and I've lined the underside of the table with some soundproofing sheet, but it's still a bit loud for my liking.

Does anyone have any ideas for vibration reducing mounts that will absorb lateral vibrations? I think the rubber is doing a good job of absorbing vertical vibrations, but not lateral ones.

It is quite possible that this might cease to be an issue with my new machine as it is going to use servos and weigh over 200kg/400lb, but I'd still like to have some decent vibration damping feet if possible.

Cheers.
Are you sure you are level at the feet,
check mcmaster-carr page 1308 I cannot post a link here at work.
otherwise
wood....
preferably natural, and hard like maple or beech placed in key places like shiming under the machine.
BTW hiding the vibrations, does not get rid of them, if they are that bad you may end with bad bearings etc, if they are not already.
chris

You could always pop over to the engineering forum, followed shortly of course by the inevitable covering everything you own in a two-foot thick coat of Polymer Concrete. :D

Are you sure you are level at the feet,
check mcmaster-carr page 1308 I cannot post a link here at work.
otherwise
wood....
preferably natural, and hard like maple or beech placed in key places like shiming under the machine.
BTW hiding the vibrations, does not get rid of them, if they are that bad you may end with bad bearings etc, if they are not already.
chris

It's not on feet - which may be part of the problem. The mill is bolted to a sheet of 18mm/0.75" thick plywood, which then sits on two 0.5" strips of vibration absorbing mat and then on another chunk of plywood before resting on my table cum bass-box.

My previous table had the mill mounted on a far more wobbly pair of beams suspended over the table surface:
http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/107716341-Th.jpg (http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/107716341-L.jpg)
which I guess managed to absorb a lot of small and medium sized vibrations.

I know the key to the problem is reducing/removing the vibration in the first place - I am still playing with speeds/feeds to get smoother cuts, but a lot of the noise/vibration problem seems to be due to the steppers. They are very solidly and squarely mounted to the table, and have flexible couplers and didn't cause me any problems when the table wasn't resonant :(

I am beginning to think that I need to rework my table top as it is forming stagnant pools of coolant and not allowing the chips to flow to the drain, so I think I might try raising the mill off the table again. How well this will work with a 400lb mill has yet to be seen!

You could always pop over to the engineering forum, followed shortly of course by the inevitable covering everything you own in a two-foot thick coat of Polymer Concrete. :D

If/when I can afford a house with a garage or a garden big enough for a 20'x20' shed, I intend to build a mill table along the lines of a brick barbeque - but using breeze blocks and a 2' thick poured concrete slab with integral drain gutters for the top. This table, despite being big, heavy and expensive is just temporary, so no concrete this time!

It's not on feet - which may be part of the problem. The mill is bolted to a sheet of 18mm/0.75" thick plywood, which then sits on two 0.5" strips of vibration absorbing mat and then on another chunk of plywood before resting on my table cum bass-box.

/.....
I am beginning to think that I need to rework my table top as it is forming stagnant pools of coolant and not allowing the chips to flow to the drain, so I think I might try raising the mill off the table again. How well this will work with a 400lb mill has yet to be seen!

Um yeah, you need 4 distinct legs which you can level, haveing a solid base is useless, thats for starters, haveing the machine sitting on a vibration mat is just asking for problems in the long run, again you need distinct mounts. you will not be putting a 400lb mill on this setup, it least not for long.

I would with what you have, do this, take another piece of 3/4 ply(hardwood) laminate it to the other piece(glue and lag bolts would be best). After you have that, take some 1" X 1" 1/8" thick steel tubing, mount the machine to that, in turn mounting that to the plywood. Create 4 4x4 legs, and a 4x4 (you could use 2x4 but I am thinking for heavy loading)base, bolt the legs to the base, a half lap would be best, but I will assume you don't have a saw capable. Gusset the legs from the middle of the table, brace the legs to each other no less the half-way down from the top. This creates a nice shelf in the end you can use for coolant basin. The gussets and the bracing are important, if you don't do them you will be rickety. From there you can shim the legs or if you want to screw in levelers to the bottom of the legs, in my case shiming works well untill I need to move the table. Toss the vibration mat, thats not helping you any, if anything cut it into squares and put it unto the legs of the table. I don't know what ply goes for near you but its around $40 for a 4'x8' sheet here, another $20 for 4"x4" or alternative of 2"x4" bolted together, bolts are around $20. The steel is minimal since you only need about 3 feet, You can use drywall screws, I prefer lag bolts and wood glue, don't use the metal hangers for joints they don't work well its better to be directly bolted, I supose you could use nails, or threaed rod and nuts also. I used 45 mitres at the table corners, but you can butte them, again half laps or mortise and tenon are best but even I know that its not always worth the effort. This is not a 100 year table, but should suit your needs, you can cut a hole and go get some PVC drain tube for the coolant.
BTW this gives you around a 3'x6' table depending upon how you cut plywood, I assum you are much smaller.
chris

Um yeah, you need 4 distinct legs which you can level, haveing a solid base is useless, thats for starters, haveing the machine sitting on a vibration mat is just asking for problems in the long run, again you need distinct mounts. you will not be putting a 400lb mill on this setup, it least not for long.

I would with what you have, do this, take another piece of 3/4 ply(hardwood) laminate it to the other piece(glue and lag bolts would be best). After you have that, take some 1" X 1" 1/8" thick steel tubing, mount the machine to that, in turn mounting that to the plywood. Create 4 4x4 legs, and a 4x4 (you could use 2x4 but I am thinking for heavy loading)base, bolt the legs to the base, a half lap would be best, but I will assume you don't have a saw capable. Gusset the legs from the middle of the table, brace the legs to each other no less the half-way down from the top. This creates a nice shelf in the end you can use for coolant basin. The gussets and the bracing are important, if you don't do them you will be rickety. From there you can shim the legs or if you want to screw in levelers to the bottom of the legs, in my case shiming works well untill I need to move the table. Toss the vibration mat, thats not helping you any, if anything cut it into squares and put it unto the legs of the table. I don't know what ply goes for near you but its around $40 for a 4'x8' sheet here, another $20 for 4"x4" or alternative of 2"x4" bolted together, bolts are around $20. The steel is minimal since you only need about 3 feet, You can use drywall screws, I prefer lag bolts and wood glue, don't use the metal hangers for joints they don't work well its better to be directly bolted, I supose you could use nails, or threaed rod and nuts also. I used 45 mitres at the table corners, but you can butte them, again half laps or mortise and tenon are best but even I know that its not always worth the effort. This is not a 100 year table, but should suit your needs, you can cut a hole and go get some PVC drain tube for the coolant.
BTW this gives you around a 3'x6' table depending upon how you cut plywood, I assum you are much smaller.
chris


Unless I've misread it, that seems to be instructions for a brand new and rather sturdy table. I really don't want to rework what I've got if possible - my table is very solid, but being a hollow plywood box, does have a tendency to resonate. I have also built a full enclosure on top of it, so tearing it all down isn't an option I'd be in a hurry to try...

OK, so I think what you're also saying is that I need to support my mill just by its corners, and not by bolting it down to a flat sheet of material?

I guess I need to build some 'shock absorbers' that will allow 1/10" or so of movement without transmitting too much of the vibration to the main table top.

BTW table is 1.5x1.2m - so about 5.9' x 4.7' and the whole enclosure is over 6' tall - and I'd estimate about 150-200lbs.

You could always pop over to the engineering forum, followed shortly of course by the inevitable covering everything you own in a two-foot thick coat of Polymer Concrete. :D

Actually you don't need to cover things is polymer concrete. For this issue, is I understand it correctly, you need to make a concrete table top. The purchase of cheap surface plates could also be a solution.

There are actually a couple of books on using concrete to make kitchen counter tops and such. The techniques are straight forward and just require the production of a upside down mold negative. For that application real concrete is used, but I would not recommend that here. Instead use the polymer concrete approach.

One advantage of this approach is that you can mold into the top all the feature you will need. Thus sloping surfaces to a center drain are easy. As is mounting blocks or risers for the machines feet. Even a raised rim is easy.

The biggest problem for these sorts of things is that the tops can be extremely heavy. Often the best approach is to cast the table top very close to the installation point, thus allowing for flipping over easily.

In a nut shell a molded table top that is heavy and dense is the way to go.


Dave

Actually you don't need to cover things is polymer concrete. For this issue, is I understand it correctly, you need to make a concrete table top. The purchase of cheap surface plates could also be a solution.

There are actually a couple of books on using concrete to make kitchen counter tops and such. The techniques are straight forward and just require the production of a upside down mold negative. For that application real concrete is used, but I would not recommend that here. Instead use the polymer concrete approach.

One advantage of this approach is that you can mold into the top all the feature you will need. Thus sloping surfaces to a center drain are easy. As is mounting blocks or risers for the machines feet. Even a raised rim is easy.

The biggest problem for these sorts of things is that the tops can be extremely heavy. Often the best approach is to cast the table top very close to the installation point, thus allowing for flipping over easily.

In a nut shell a molded table top that is heavy and dense is the way to go.


Dave

I really do like the sound of that, but I really don't think I can get messy with concrete at the moment - my mill is in a 1st floor apartment, and I have to be able to dispose of the whole table when I move out - hopefully to somewhere with a huge garage/workshop area :)

I could however cement together 20 breeze blocks at a push...

Unless I've misread it, that seems to be instructions for a brand new and rather sturdy table. I really don't want to rework what I've got if possible - my table is very solid, but being a hollow plywood box, does have a tendency to resonate. I have also built a full enclosure on top of it, so tearing it all down isn't an option I'd be in a hurry to try...

OK, so I think what you're also saying is that I need to support my mill just by its corners, and not by bolting it down to a flat sheet of material?

I guess I need to build some 'shock absorbers' that will allow 1/10" or so of movement without transmitting too much of the vibration to the main table top.

BTW table is 1.5x1.2m - so about 5.9' x 4.7' and the whole enclosure is over 6' tall - and I'd estimate about 150-200lbs.

I use Ideal alot, you have to use common sense too....

You are dealing with several factors, weight/load distrubtion, vibration, rigidity, and contact points.

First
Ideally you want any vibration absorbed at base(the point were it contacts something else) of the machine, if you transmit those vibrations into a surface(the base box) that itself vibrates only makes matters worse. Although I like your idea of the vibration mat, it makes other problems worse(rigidity). You move your vibration damping to the lowest possible place before the last contact point(the floor).
Weight-
The reason I said to mount the machine to steel, is to help spread the weight of it out over the ply, since ply has a tendecy to bend, thats why ideally you would have a metal or concrete mounting surface. Weight is the single biggest factor in vibration control, the more you have moving the more you will have.
Rigidty-
Laminating the ply increases the rigidness, to improve upon the above(steel beam) and thinking about a bigger machine, you could more then likely get away with either, in the long run you will find the 3/4 bending and loosening up. You want the mill mounted distinctly, I know the steel beams counter that, but given what you are mounting to it may be needed.
Vibration-
If you have or think you have 1/10" of movement you have other problems, either in the process or in the machine-inclduing the mounting. Ideally you should be absorbing 0" of movement.

If you really want the resonation to stop, yes, you need rebuild the table to be on at least 3 feet, but 4 is better/easier, like I said you are talking about putting a bigger mill on this setup well thats not going to happen. Although spreading the load over a whole area does increase the load bearing, it makes it impossible to have full contact on a floor even wood. If you look at just about any machince, they have distinct contact points, not a full base, there is a reason for that.
A quick fix, remove the vibration mat, cut up a section of 2x4, 4 pieces say around 4" long mount those to the bottom of the box. You will more the likely need some thin shims to place under these to level.
If you are going to have vibration material it should be securely mounted to these feet on the box.

Yes I guess in the end you are rebuildig the table, but you are talking about putting something bigger into the table I would consider that also.


chris

Thanks for another really detailed reply in2steam!

My table is basically a slight modification of the Tormach DIY stand:
http://www.tormach.com/Product_DYI_StandImages.html

So it is a solid wood frame stressed only in compression, skinned with 3/4" ply and topped with a 3/4" ply sheet. My table has an additional disasterous fibreglass top which will soon be heading for the landfill as it doesn't drain properly :(

So, my plan with weight distribution is to mount my mill directly over the horizontal cross beams which are spaced at roughly 16" inch intervals. I would guess that my X-1 is currently sitting over one cross member as its base isn't all that wide, and that's probably not helping. The table is also lacking the feet which Tormach recomend, so I will probably use your idea of mounting the whole thing on 2x4" feet.

I don't have 1/10" of vibration to absorb - it was just a number I plucked out of the air.

I was gonna say thats incredible if you did,
The picture helps, can you get one of yours?

Let me digest that a little, the tormach weighs a boat load more, it looks like they are trussing out the weight some.

Fiberglass=bad ditch that ROW.

I don't follow on compression only, do you mean there is no prestressed parts of the wood?

chris

I was gonna say thats incredible if you did,
The picture helps, can you get one of yours?

Let me digest that a little, the tormach weighs a boat load more, it looks like they are trussing out the weight some.

Fiberglass=bad ditch that ROW.

I don't follow on compression only, do you mean there is no prestressed parts of the wood?

chris

It sounds like an excuse, but the table is so big comapred to the room its in that I can't get it all into a single photo! I did take some shots during its construction though, I'll see what I can find. Mine is actually a full enclosure to reduce noise and contain all the coolant and chips.

The fibreglass was a very smelly and expensive mistake - I imagine the side against the plastic liner is lovely and smooth but the top side is perfect for catching chips and wicking coolant! It's basically there to stop me ripping the liner, but it will be replaced with thin metal sheet in the style of a zinc-roof. I have worries about that singing like Pavarotti, but if it has enough weight on it, it should be fine.

The theory behind Tormach's design is that all the wooden beams are just sitting on top of eachother, so all the loading is vertical compression. The vertical beams are just glued and screwed to the plywood front and back sides, then the top and bottom horizontal beams are glued and screwed on to those and then the left and right sides are glued and screwed on. The plywood keeps it all rigid, and the beams take most of the loading. It is a very nice stiff structure and even the flimsiest looking bits easily handle my full weight but it is a plywood box with holes in it and a sound source on the top - making it an ideal sub woofer!

And vibration amplifier

chris

Well, I finally got bored of the noise and smell of stagnant coolant, so I took my mill off the table and removed the horrid fibreglass top. :)

I now have my mill suspended over the table on some steel box-section, and sitting on some vibration reducing mat. The table itself is now raised up off the floor and sits on a couple of 3"x1.5" beams and 4 little feet of vibration reducing mat.

The table top now has sloping wooden formers underneath the waterproof plastic sheeting, which helps run off, but I still have a tedious wrinkle or two which are pooling coolant - arrgh! The whole thing is then covered with a piece of acrylic with a drain hole in it which does a pretty good job of providing a smooth surface for coolant runoff and protecting the waterproof membrane below. It has a crack or two, and I might replace it in a week or so before I put my really heavy machine on top of the table.

The noise reduction is amazing - the stepper noise used to resonate badly, but now it's a gentle hum. I also used to be able to feel the mill vibrations across a concrete floor when it went into nasty chatter - now I can hear and see the chatter, but I can't feel it. I still need to do some actuall milling to see what the cutting noise and vibration is like, but for drilling and rapids, it is so much better. I just need to perfect the coolant run off now...

Hi digits and anybody else who has vibration problem,

I don’t know if you total sorted the vibration problem but I would highly recommend reading this thread; especially post #26 here http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32284&page=3 . I posted myself in that thread and have to say this vibration dampener is nothing less than amazing. Watch and listen to the videos if you need more convincing.

John

That damper system is amazing!

I'm still not 100% happy with my coolant and chip flow - I still have hard to reach chips below the machine, and coolant pooling on the waterproof sheet under my acrylic top :(

I guess I've underestimated just how important a proper slope is to runoff, and how much coolant can be trapped on the table by a small wrinkle in the waterpoof sheet :(

I would still like to try covering it with overlapping thin metal sheets, much like a zinc roof with raised ridges where the sheets join. It won't be cheap - £70/$140 is my best guess, and my real fear is that the sheet itself may start to resonate. I could try heat-forming more cheapish plastic roofing sheet instead, but I'm worried that could crack if I dropped a spanner on to it.

I would also like to add a coolant stream to simply wash down the whole table continuously, so that chips can't get caught in under the machine. I'm not sure my coolant pump have enough power to service both that and the spindle coolant pipes though, so perhaps it might just have to be an 'end of day' flushng system instead.

If all else fails trying to kill vibration, you could just try hanging the mill from the ceiling with bungee cords..... Boingy, boingy :rolleyes:

I'm liking this concrete drain pan/mounting idea... i've seen several tv shows on how to do it, and done some research on the net... sounds like something that i just might give a try... my question is this.. how much rise over run would a person want? ie what angle should the inside of the pan taper towards the drain hole...

If all else fails trying to kill vibration, you could just try hanging the mill from the ceiling with bungee cords..... Boingy, boingy :rolleyes:

I've now got 3 layers of vibration reducing mat - one between the mill and the aluminium frame (base of my new mill!), one between the aluminium frame and the steel box section the frame sits on and one between the feet of the enclosure and the floor.

I really can't feel any vibrations across the floor anymore - which must be good news for my downstairs neighbours, and the peak noise has dropped from ~67dBA to ~57dBA at about 1 meter.

Coolant flow and chip removal are still tedious though!

On the subject of coolant; I’ve just bought a system which delivers 12Lts/min. I don’t know what you have now or what you are going to need but if you do decide on another system I got mine from here after shopping around http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=570891&name=coolant&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=0 .

John

I'm liking this concrete drain pan/mounting idea... i've seen several tv shows on how to do it, and done some research on the net... sounds like something that i just might give a try... my question is this.. how much rise over run would a person want? ie what angle should the inside of the pan taper towards the drain hole...

IMHO as much as possible - when the chips start to fly, unless they are being carried away by the coolant, they will quickly start to form little dams and you'll get stagnant puddles.

If I had a nice garage to work in, I'd probably just build a concrete 'shower tray' without a drain, and then build a brick/concrete column in the middle of that, and top it off with steel or a paving slab. I'd then bolt the mill to the top of the column and just let all the chips and coolant fall into the 'shower tray' at floor level. The coolant pump would sit in the tray with a chip-filter to protect its intake, but the rest of the tray would be allowed to fill with a mixture of chips and coolant. Dropped tools/bolts will be a problem to retrieve, I suppose you could put some chicken wire in there to catch them but let the the chips go through.

As I don't have a garage though, I'm really tempted to have a go at something like the wonderful enclosure in post #17 in this thread :
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24496&page=2&highlight=enclosure

- have a look at the pics in the Zip file.

What I would do though is increase the size of the drain hole to 6"-12" and then put a plastic bucket with the bottom cut out and replaced by some fine mesh under that, as drill chips keep building up in all my 1.5" piping. My coolant sump would live under the bucket, probably at the centre, front of the table for easy access.

i was bouncing all of this back and forth with a buddy of mine here at work today and came up with what i'm gonna try... i have a sheet, yes a full sheet, of 1/4 steel plate.. i'm gonna cut it up and make myself a pan outta that.. its heavy enough, and i can make the drains anything i want... what i'm thinking is that i will have 3 drains across the front, i'll just use whatever el cheapo sink and or shower drain i can get at the homie de-pot.... i'll have a pretty serious slope to the front, and will weld little tabs inplace so that i can secure a screen over the drains... then, i'll funnell the coolant down to the bucket through an old coffee filter holder and coffee filters... easy to change, cheap, should flow enough volume.... hey it might not work, but its worth a try... right?

heres my kindergarden level rendering of it(im at work and dont have any kinda cadd here to use)

I realized that my previous suggestion of hanging the mill from the ceiling of your living room didn't take into account the drainage problem. I would instead suggest hanging the mill from the ceiling of your shower. That should do it. Suspend it with something stretchy and elastic to cut vibrations - a few pair of your wife's nylons knotted up should do the trick nicely.
She'll be impressed with your ingenuity and thriftiness when you show it to her I'm sure. Or just wait until she tries to take a shower and let it be a surprise!

Well, I guess its time to re-heat this thread, as I need a decent coolant tray solution before I put my 200+ kg mill on top of it.

My current coolant tray consists of raised wooden sides round the top of the table, covered with two layers of damp-proof membrane to waterproof it. I have cut a rectangular hole in the table and membrane, and I catch coolant under it. On top of the whole lot, I have a sheet of acrylic with a large, and unfortunately ugly hole in it, which is designed to provide a smooth surface for efficient coolant and chip flow.

Unfortunately, not all of the coolant that hits the acrylic stays on top of it - some of it leaks off the edges (which are only slightly raised as its damn hard to bend) and then forms puddles in the tiny wrinkles in the damp proof membrane. I guess I lose upto 1/4 of my coolant to puddles over a long milling session, and it takes ages to then trickle back down to the drain, and there's always a litre or two of coolant that gets left behind :(

I am planning to replace the acrylic with some 1mm thick steel sheet - but I can't easily get a piece big enough to do it in one go, so I'm going to have to join or overlap several smaller ones.

My mill is suspended on steel box section over the coolant tray, and there is very limited clearance under it, so I need a solution that will be able to flush the chips down to the drain.

If anyone has any sensible suggestions for how to construct the tray without welding, I'd love to hear them.

And for those of you with a plastic coolant enclosure - have you tried dropping a vice or rotary table onto the base of your enclosure - it's not hard to do, and it really isn't pretty!

Looks like we are in the same place at the moment so would also like ideas.

As I said in my thread nearest I have found is a concrete mixing tray and I would imagine that would withstand a vice being dropped on it as they are really tough. The problem is they are around 900mm square so to big at least for me anyway. I have considered cutting it down but would be a little nervous of the joint. I could seal the joints with fish tank sealant (if you think about what a fish tank has to withstand) but do not know if the coolant will eat away at it?

John

Looks like we are in the same place at the moment so would also like ideas.

As I said in my thread nearest I have found is a concrete mixing tray and I would imagine that would withstand a vice being dropped on it as they are really tough. The problem is they are around 900mm square so to big at least for me anyway. I have considered cutting it down but would be a little nervous of the joint. I could seal the joints with fish tank sealant (if you think about what a fish tank has to withstand) but do not know if the coolant will eat away at it?

John

That's not big enough for me - I need 1400 x 900mm, but it might be worth a go. I did previously suspend my mill over a shower tray but the drain tended to fill with chips.

John, I would have thought that with a bit of effort with a heat gun, you could probably curve up the sides of that tray to form a splash-back, but doesn't your mill have 500mm of X-travel anyway - you are going to need well over a metre of width at least!

That's not big enough for me - I need 1400 x 900mm, but it might be worth a go. I did previously suspend my mill over a shower tray but the drain tended to fill with chips.

John, I would have thought that with a bit of effort with a heat gun, you could probably curve up the sides of that tray to form a splash-back, but doesn't your mill have 500mm of X-travel anyway - you are going to need well over a metre of width at least!

I have 350mm of travel; would like to see where the coolant runs off to know exactly how wide I need to go. If the stepper motor sticks over the end of the tray will that be a problem or should the tray extend past the motor at the tables extreme; same with Y axis?

You could buy two of the mixing trays cut and join them to give up to about 1700mm x 900mm.:)

John

I have 450mm of travel; would like to see where the coolant runs off to know exactly how wide I need to go. If the stepper motor sticks over the end of the tray will that be a problem or should the tray extend past the motor at the tables extreme; same with Y axis?

You could buy two of the mixing trays cut and join them to give up to about 1700mm x 900mm.:)

John

The coolant will run off the end of the tables, and also off the front/back as soon as the T-slots fill with chips. If you are lucky/clever, not much of it will make it along your motor-mounts and onto your motors. My experience is that a few drops of coolant may end up dripping off the underside of your motors.

You have to remember though that coolant will also spray off in random directions if you have enough pressure to clear chips - I'd allow at least a 1-2 foot radius of the spindle.

As for the trays - yes, that would probably work - I think there are two basic approaches here - to stand the mill in/over a waterproof tray that can acutally hold coolant, or to suspend the mill over a roof-like structure that will let coolant run off along it. I am tempted to buy some guttering from Wickes and then use B&Q steel sheet to build a metal sloped roof. I would turn up about 25mm along the edge of each sheet and then use B&Q aluminium channel to cap the join between two sheets. This structure wouldn't hold any liquid at all, but TBH, I don't want a pond on top of my table - all the coolant should return to the sump with the pump.

This guy might be worth an email; just found it http://cgi.ebay.co.uk:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180137709811&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:UK:111

John

This guy might be worth an email; just found it http://cgi.ebay.co.uk:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180137709811&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:UK:111

John

Cheers John - it is a great find. I don't think I want to hold off assembly of my new machine though, so I guess I'll either let B&Q rob me blind or just put up with what I've got for now.

Edit: This is getting confusing, so I'll try to keep this in my own thread! Looks like I may be able to get a large enough single sheet from Metalsupermarkets on Saturday - assuming the price is right and it will fit in the car!

hehehe just put it on the roof and hold on to it out the window like i see so many times... hehehehehe

hehehe just put it on the roof and hold on to it out the window like i see so many times... hehehehehe

I haven't got enough roof for that :)

If it won't bend enough to go in the back with the seats down, I've got no chance of forming it into a drip tray anyway - but I think I am going to try and get a large sheet of steel or aluminium and have a go anyway.

Well I’ve now 90% completed my stainless steel :cool: coolant tray and so far it has cost me £0. I was sat in my workshop pondering buying one or making one and trying to think if there was anywhere local to buy sheet. Then I eyeballed by stainless bin which was rejected from the kitchen because it was out of fashion lol. I put my tape measure on it and within 5 minuets I had a sheet of stainless steel. Within 30 minuets I had a tray measuring 900mm x 600mm with a 20mm lip. I have it to stick to ply wood because it is to thin to support it’s self and it’s a little smaller than I would like but it will do the job.

Just though I would post it because some one might find the information useful.:)

John

Well I’ve now 90% completed my stainless steel :cool: coolant tray and so far it has cost me £0. I was sat in my workshop pondering buying one or making one and trying to think if there was anywhere local to buy sheet. Then I eyeballed by stainless bin which was rejected from the kitchen because it was out of fashion lol. I put my tape measure on it and within 5 minuets I had a sheet of stainless steel. Within 30 minuets I had a tray measuring 900mm x 600mm with a 20mm lip. I have it to stick to ply wood because it is to thin to support it’s self and it’s a little smaller than I would like but it will do the job.

Just though I would post it because some one might find the information useful.:)

John

That's very McGyver of you John :) How did you seal up the corners - I am half tempted to use plumbing solder and a blow torch if I get steel sheet - I have some aluminium solder (easyweld) incase I come home with aluminium :)

I would have thought that the plywood backing is a damn good idea anyway -without it, unless the steel is really thick, it will 'sing' like Rolf Harris' wobble board once your mill gets going :(

I thought I would post up a picture of my enclosure, its not quite all together yet, I am just waiting on some things.

Its loosely based on the tormach stand, all wood with a fiberglassed tray, its working out perfectly.

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/6672/dsc00074fm7.jpg

That's very McGyver of you John :) How did you seal up the corners

As yet I haven’t sealed the corners because I have been doing some panel beating and adding plywood wedges side by side to the underside. This will make the cutting fluid flow from the back right corner around the front of the machine, back to the back left corner and into the drain. It sounds more complicated than it is. I have been testing different adhesives on some scrap stainless and plywood and found the only thing that will work is fish tank silicon (technical not an adhesive but I had a strong feeling it would work). The corners will be sealed when I add a plywood strips around the outer edges to strengthen the tray lip I am testing silicon to see if it reacts with cutting fluid and if not will use that to seal the corners.

John

I thought I would post up a picture of my enclosure, its not quite all together yet, I am just waiting on some things.

Its loosely based on the tormach stand, all wood with a fiberglassed tray, its working out perfectly.

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/6672/dsc00074fm7.jpg

That looks very nice! The tormach stand DIY stand is an excellent example of how to construct a very sturdy table from wood, glue screws and plywood, but I had no luck at all with fibreglassing my table :(

As yet I haven’t sealed the corners because I have been doing some panel beating and adding plywood wedges side by side to the underside. This will make the cutting fluid flow from the back right corner around the front of the machine, back to the back left corner and into the drain. It sounds more complicated than it is. I have been testing different adhesives on some scrap stainless and plywood and found the only thing that will work is fish tank silicon (technical not an adhesive but I had a strong feeling it would work). The corners will be sealed when I add a plywood strips around the outer edges to strengthen the tray lip I am testing silicon to see if it reacts with cutting fluid and if not will use that to seal the corners.

John

I really hope silicone is coolant safe - I am banking on it! Did you try expoy - I would have thought that'd do the trick of sticking wood to steel?

I decided to bite the bullet and went to Metalsupermarkets on Saturday. I picked up a 1600mm x 1100mm x 1.2mm (18GA) aluminium sheet for £60 odd which is pricey, but I needed it in a hurry. It didn't fit in my car flat, but it was flexible enough to just fit with a bit of flex!

I had to hoist off my X-1 and supports and the remove all the enclosure lining to get at the acrylic sheet that was lining my table. Once I'd cleared off all the chips, I tried to remove it - bang it snapped in half! The acrylic seems to have become very brittle after a few months with coolant running off it, so I decided to break and bin it, rather than keep and re-use it. I also decided I would redo the plastic liner under the acrylic as it had some rather nasty looking pools of stagnant coolant on it. Urrgh - as soon as the plastic came off, I noticed a very musty smell and some serious discolouration of the plywood underneath :( It looks like the damp-proof membrane isn't coolant safe, or isn't 100% impermeable - it had damp-patches in the middle of the sheet which had kept the ply below moist enough to grow various patches in interestingly coloured mould :(

Fortunately most of the mould was on some ply that I'd added to give the table some curvature for drainage, rather than the table top itself, so I disposed of that and cleaned off the table with household mold killer spray (which appears to be bleach + limonene for a nicer smell!). I then also made an emmergency trip to the DIY store just 5mins before it shut to get some varnish to re-seal my table top, but came home instead with water-resistant floor paint in battleship grey. I have given it two coats, and if it's properly dry, I will try and mount my ally sheet.

I had a quick measure of my table to get the actual dimensions and position of the existing drain, and then marked up and attemped to fold up my ally sheet - with quite a lot of force and a long wooden beam to help me make a straight edge, I managed to fold up the two longer sides. Folding up the other two was a bit harder, and folding in the corners required a fair bit of hammering - but they are now folded, and I avoided doing any cutting or welding. I just need to see it it fits my newly painted table - I expect it will need some hammering into shape (sorry neighbours) and perhaps some jumping up and down on as well! I may have to cut the sides down a bit to allow me to fit the machine supports, but I might end up raising them a bit as well. I am still in two minds as to whether it needs re-enforcing, and I am less keen to use wood again.

I will try and post some pics tonight - it will make more sense, I hope!

I'd like to see some up close shots of the inside and what you're using for a drain, if possible? :) I'm in the process of making one, well I've made a enclosure, but didn't work out to well.

Well, as promised, here are some pics...

Here's the old acrylic topped plastic arrangement - check out the nasty stagnant coolant puddle - that's about 3 weeks old :(

http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/173742063-L.jpg

And here's what was lurking under that 'damp proof' plastic sheet - horrible mould :(

http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/173742192-L.jpg
http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/173742351-L.jpg

Goodbye mould, and hello battleship-grey :)
http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/173742491-L.jpg


Here is my simply folded ally sheet top resting in place. It took a lot of hammering to get it to fit properly - and I couldn't find my ear-defenders - that was a mistake - hitting that sheet is loud!

http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/173742649-L.jpg


The coolant flow still isn't perfect, as the food-colouring enhanced water shows, but I'll worry about that once I have some weight on it - at least I have plenty of room to get under it to clear out the chips.

http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/173742805-L.jpg
http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/173742946-L.jpg
http://digits.smugmug.com/photos/173743063-L.jpg

I don't think I'll have any filters on the table this time - the chips will go straight down into a 30L or so bucket, and I will have some sort of mesh in that to prevent the chips getting to the coolant sump below.

Cheers.

Sheet metal, I didn't even thing of that! I was thinking big and thick, with this you can mold it however you need it. I'm going to try some tomorrow, thank you!

Nice job BTW!!

Couple more shots from my table, if its any help to anyone.

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/9245/dsc02327nx0.jpg

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/9324/dsc02328we3.jpg

I don't know if anyone uses a waterfall separator with their coolant, they work pretty well to get rid of most of the fines before it gets back to your pump.

All you need is 2 containers, the first with a baffle forcing the fluid to go down under it before coming up to the drain leading to the next container. The pump is in the second one. 5 gal buckets, big tupperware, whatever you have around and some plumbing fittings. A coarse screen leading in and you're good to go.

I don't know if anyone uses a waterfall separator with their coolant, they work pretty well to get rid of most of the fines before it gets back to your pump.

All you need is 2 containers, the first with a baffle forcing the fluid to go down under it before coming up to the drain leading to the next container. The pump is in the second one. 5 gal buckets, big tupperware, whatever you have around and some plumbing fittings. A coarse screen leading in and you're good to go.

Cheers, that is a good idea! :) I take it the baffle has to be properly sealed against the sides to prevent the coolant short-circuiting across the top and leaving a lot of stagnant liquid in the bottom?

I am hoping though that my chip bucket will become self filtering if I'm too lazy to empty it often enough - all my 40mm drain piping has ended up blocked with curly chips which self assemble into metal scourers!

While it would be nice, the baffle doesn't have to be perfectly sealed, as long as the edges are fairly true, you can just slide it up against the wall in a round bucket and it'll be fine. If it's not sealed it's also easy to remove when you have to clean out the bucket.

I used to use this system for recirculating water in a tumbler with 3, 60 Gal drums and multiple baffles. It would go in looking like mud and finish almost clear.