Hi everyone..

I'm preparing to purchase a 06 4020 loaded with the 18i-MB5 control. The machine also has the VH-165 rotary. I sold six fadals last year and I'm getting back into the business. I have always had good service from my Fadals with the 88HS

I'm new to the Fanuc control. I'm gathering that this is the "Cadillac" of controls and a quantum leap from the 88HS? I would like to eventually add a 5 axis TR-165. Can this be done easily in the field ?

The rock bottom price is 85k.They were asking 105k.. The machine has the chip conveyor with washdown, high torque, coolant through, rigid tap and VH-165 rotary.The machine is a lease repo with 700hours, so basically new condition. any opinions on this price ?

The machine will be used for medical and aerospace work

Thanks, any opinions will be appreciated:)

I purchased a Bridgeport/Hardinge XP3 about 6 months ago with the 18i-MB control. It is a great control with the AI-NANO processor. I use it for complex 3D machining and it is amazing at how fast it can read and process massive amounts of data. To activate the AI-NANO processor function you simply add the line G05.1Q1Rx at the beginning of the program, where x is a number from 1-10 that indicates how closely you want the control to match the shape of the part you are machining. I use 5 as the setting and all of the parts I make look great. A setting of 1 will speed the machine feed up closer to the programed rate and 10 will cause it to slow down to more closely match the part shape. It looks well ahead in the program and determines how much it must slow down to accurately cut the part to shape. On my models in aluminum, I run 12,000 rpm, .125 ballnose endmill, and I program a feedrate of 110 ipm and it will hit that on the smoother, flat areas, but will slow down to as much as 40ipm in the tight areas. All in all, it is a great control, but hopefully you are programming with software, as it is not a friendly control for MDI programming. It has no conversational mode. Hope this helps.
Mike

As a machine builder I can tell you the Fanuc control is the best. However, I do know that any options you want are about 1/2 price at time of purchase over getting the fanuc guys to come into the field and add options to the control.

AINano is worth the price for sure...
Without this option HSM is not possible. If all you do is drilling, you don't need it, but who doesn't do milling right? I have not used HPCC but I'll bet that option is just that much better than AI. One year ago, AI was 5k, HPCC was 10k. This may seem costly, but remember a Fanuc without these options is like runing an engine in your car on half it's cylinders...
There are controls that don't require puchasing high performance options, but not Fanuc. Fanuc say's you gotta pay if you want to play. No surprise here though, at least Fanuc is consistant. Same is true for all the car makers out there, I am not complaining, I like the options... They are worth the money.


BTW, you should turn off AI when drilling because X, Y & Z motion are slowed a bit if you leave it on, and there is usually no point in slowing down a machine when moving to X & Y points for drilling holes. (unless of course you're trying to hold really tight positional tolerances).

Sincerely,

Are there different versions of this control, or are they available with certain versions turned off ? On the spec sheet for this machine I see some of these options:

AI- contour control
Bell acc/dec in rapid
Bell shaped acc/dec after interpolation
Bell shaped acc/dec before interpolation

What is HPCC and how do I know if its on this control..?

I think you're going to find that the fanuc is a great control (they've been industry standard for several years) but they aren't as user friendly as the old 88HS. They are really designed for the guy with the seat of CAM and aren't really all that great for manual programming at the machine. For one, they don't have all of the L94xx subroutines. But that's evolution I guess. I wouldn't be afraid of the machine or the control. Just be prepared for a learning curve with the control. As far as the price.... that seems a little high for a used machine but that's just my two cents.

:cheers:

Thanks for the input.. Im going to dig a little on this machine. It also has the side mount tool changer. I Was told the new sale price was around 130k..

AINano is worth the price for sure...
Without this option HSM is not possible. If all you do is drilling, you don't need it, but who doesn't do milling right? I have not used HPCC but I'll bet that option is just that much better than AI. One year ago, AI was 5k, HPCC was 10k. This may seem costly, but remember a Fanuc without these options is like runing an engine in your car on half it's cylinders...
There are controls that don't require puchasing high performance options, but not Fanuc. Fanuc say's you gotta pay if you want to play. No surprise here though, at least Fanuc is consistant. Same is true for all the car makers out there, I am not complaining, I like the options... They are worth the money.


BTW, you should turn off AI when drilling because X, Y & Z motion are slowed a bit if you leave it on, and there is usually no point in slowing down a machine when moving to X & Y points for drilling holes. (unless of course you're trying to hold really tight positional tolerances).

Sincerely,
Thanks for the tip to turn off the AINano functiion during drilling. I did not realize it slowed the machine down until I went back and watched it, both on and off. I also would like to know what is HPCC? My machine cost me 80k total delivered, with 12k spindle, through the spindle coolant, and 30 tool swing arm toolchanger. It was the demo model at the tool sales company, and had 45 hours run time on it.

My advise is to design a test cut that your Machine Tool suppliers would run for you. This is the only way you can make sure you get what you expect.

Also check out:
http://www.creat.com/

If SME (Society of Manufacturing Engineers) has any advise on a builder / partner (training & support) it would be to consider these guys...

Sincerely,

AINano:
If this is activated with a high degree of accuracy, then your feed rate should be increased. This is the point of this feature... If activated and no increase to feed is made, then your cycle time will be longer and of course geometry will be more accurate. Personally, this idea of using a variable to set machine accuracy performance is still a bit frustrating. This is the way it is with Fanuc and some other controls, even Fadal with it's Advanced Feed Forward option (point to point motion only), or even the G8 G9 setting.

I mean why can't a CNC machine just be accurate in it's behavior, not some compromise of accuracy, or speed. As a programmer/machinist do you program a feature with anything besides accuracy in mind? I don't.

If I want to go fast, I want to go fast accurately, period!

What about you?

BTW check out:
http://www.creat.com/

Thanks for the input.. Im going to dig a little on this machine. It also has the side mount tool changer. I Was told the new sale price was around 130k..


I'd go to Haas' website and do a quick quote on a similar machine. At least this will give a ballpark # to determine whether the salesman is yanking your chain or not. Even if you're not considering a Haas believe me, if the Fadal guy knows you're even thinking about one, he'll do wonders with the numbers. Let us know how you make out...

:cheers:

Bear in mind, with Haas you will be getting a linear bearing machine compared to a solid-way machine with the Fadal.

Seems a little high to me...take a look at the Haas...I'm not to crazy about the fanuc control any how I think yasnac is much more user friendly especially
when your setting up...That's one thing I like about Haas...the control you'll probably be looking at the same price with the 5th axis prewiring built in...

haascnc.com... price it out they have that build your own options on there so you'll get an idea of what your looking at..

Bear in mind, with Haas you will be getting a linear bearing machine compared to a solid-way machine with the Fadal.

This is true however, I do not think that it amounts to anything. I was a Fadal die hard for years. They (Fadal) kept shoving that down our throats. Their service and quality left when G&L took over. I spent two (2) years and two (2) brand new Fadal machines before I got one that will run with minimal flaws. Most of the big time machines, Mori, OKK, Mazak, etc, use linear bearings. I switched to a HAAS and let me tell you it blows away our 2005 Fadal 4020 with Siemens 840D control.

I am not saying not to buy a Fadal, I have four (4). I just wouldn't use that as a criteria. The linear ways are bigger and better and prove to add speed and accuracy to the machine. If you are worried about them wearing out, I figure the machine gets replaced in 3-5 years anyway. I do not know of many Fadals that have been used in production that are very accurate and reliable after 5 years. I know some Moris that are 15 to 20 years old and as accurate as they were when they were new.

I agree with the other posts. The price seems high. I would think about 62K however, that also depends on your demographic area. Good Luck!

...
I mean why can't a CNC machine just be accurate in it's behavior, not some compromise of accuracy, or speed. As a programmer/machinist do you program a feature with anything besides accuracy in mind? I don't.

If I want to go fast, I want to go fast accurately, period!

What about you?

BTW check out:
http://www.creat.com/

I agree completely. Accuracy is the main goal for me as well. The link you gave shows some really nice equipment in action. Kind of wish I had seen them when I was looking to buy. When I tested my machine after delivery, the setup tech said I could run it "real fast" so we programmed a part at 300ipm and set the accuracy level to 1. I was truly amazed at how fast the machine cut my parts, and I told him, while the machine was running, "if this thing can cut my parts this fast and they still look good, I'll buy another one right now". I watched the feed rate fluctuate very little from the 300 ipm, and the machine movement was very smooth. Everything appeared great, until I checked the part after it finished. Yes it cut it, but most all of the fine detail was lost so after a few more experiments, the 110 ipm and setting of 5 on the accuracy level was what I ended up with. So, it is as you stated, why have the speed vs. accuracy variable at all? I mean what good is it to cut a part really fast if the accuracy is crap? My old Cincinnatti Sabre 750 with Acramatic 2100 control was doing the part in 18 minutes. The new machine cut that machine time to 7 minutes 20 seconds and a better finish, so I was happy.

cnckid,

Hey that is a good improvment, what 60% faster right?
How many tool changes? To bad that A2100 control is history now. I think it had promise, till Siemens bought Vickers out and thus any competition it offered...
I noticed you said your "old Cincinnatti Sabre with this control"... Hey that is a new successful control, with some advanced features compared to "any control" that Fadal came out with. Far better don't you think?

I say "old" only because it is a '97 model, and 10 years is getting up there for CNC machines now days. The A2100 control is great in my book. I had Dynapath, and Mazak controls before that one and for me it was quite an improvement over those two. Since I "upgraded" to the HSM Fanuc control, I still have to remind myself that it is not a "touch screen" like the A2100:)
Attached is the test part I ran. I do this kind of stuff to "relax" from the other hair pulling work that pays the bills. Tooling used, .500 endmill, .250 endmill, .125 ballnose, .125 x 90 degree.

In regards to the linear ways.
I hear wgat you are saying about the linear ways.

I am sure you have seen the linear ways in a high end machine Makino, Okuma, etc. BUT the linear ways in a machine such as Fadal, Milltronics & Haas are wimpy little baby toys.

IMO comparing a Fadal linear to a Haas - the Haas blows the Fadal away, but a Haas is light compared to a Fadal boxway.
Don't get me wrong; a Haas is a great machine, I am just making a point.
The type of work should be a deciding factor on the needed way type.

I mean why can't a CNC machine just be accurate in it's behavior, not some compromise of accuracy, or speed. As a programmer/machinist do you program a feature with anything besides accuracy in mind? I don't.



I must disagree. Doing a 3D roughing operation, I can deal with ±0.010 or looser. You improve the feedrate there and that's a HUGE benefit in time savings.

Sounds like you already had the slow/precise setup - look at it from the other way. I'd love to have a fast/sloppy option!!

The LW on our HAAS are the same size as on the Mori. Also, if you have a chance take a look at the casting of the HAAS vs the Fadal. I am comparing my '06 VF-3SS YT with my '05 Fadal 4020. The HAAS casting is substantially (sp) larger. If I program say for example a 1/2" dia hole, cut this with a 1/4" EM and say feeds of 60 ipm and .002 chip load, I would have to comp the tool on the Fadal up to 0.010" before I hit the numbers. Same part, same tool, and same feeds on the HAAS...No comp. In fact I can run the tool up to 120 ipm with the same results.

I must disagree. Doing a 3D roughing operation, I can deal with ±0.010 or looser. You improve the feedrate there and that's a HUGE benefit in time savings.
Sounds like you already had the slow/precise setup - look at it from the other way. I'd love to have a fast/sloppy option!!

IMO, 3D Roughing should be done with different toolpath than finishing.
This process should not have the same tool as the finish pass, or the same step over or scalop height, or the same speed and feed.
This would just be a waste of time. Whenever possible, Z-Level roughing should be used to maximize metal removal rate along with consistant depth of cut. And this method should not be used for finishing...
In the Die/Mold industry the longest cycle times are during finishing, and that is where the real time savings can be found. Also, the closer you can get to finish size with your roughing the better it will be for semi-finishing and finishing...
Again, machine tool builders who loosen up the machines accuracy to go faster are addressing the wrong issue with their CNC. A CNC does not have to be "loose" in order to go fast. This is just not right.

What do you say?

Moldmaking and production are two different animals. My companies provide both. With the moldmaking, we are looking at a one time shot (basically) so accuracy is the key, whereas production is get it out as fast as possible. We still need accuracy but we can generally deal with +/-.005". I have programmed 700 ipm on my Siemens controlled Fadal and obtained unexpectedly great results (within .002" of nominal). In doing so though I rarely observed the machine actually hitting the 700 ipm. Maybe on a long strait section. Anyway, unless you're in the wood business, I don't think that sacraficing dimensional stability for speed is a good idea.

Just as Darbee says, Haas is not a fair comparison to the box way Fadal. Really, even a linear guide Fadal is not a fair comparison to a Haas. Fadal builds machines for the long run compaired to Haas and because they use heavier duty components, ie. ballscrews, bearings, spindle motors, and much more, they should be more expensive. Not to mention the BMW of controls against a Chevy Cavilaer. Be fair to yourself and your business and compare it all; machine design, torques and horsepowers (Haas fiddles with their numbers to look good. I have photos of their "40HP Vector Drive, with a Haas sticker that says right on it that it's a 20HP drive. I uploaded it for your reference. Look closely at the tag, it says 20HP direct from the factory. The spindle motor is also 20HP and that also is on the motor spec. plate.), weights, and lastly how much are you willing to see your local Haas Factory outlet to repair it all the time vs. Fadal. I did factory service for Haas for over 5 years in Idaho and they nearly retired me from all the money I made fixing them. So, please realize you are not comparing apples to apples when looking at Haas.

PS: Don't belive the argument that it's a Vector drive, so you can pull more ponies out of the motor that it's rated for. Yes, true, for a nanosecond, but not a 15 minute duty cycle as all other machine builders hold their specs to.