I have a friend that is in the market for a home CNC I have been telling him about the Tormach but he seems to be leaning toward an Ajax tool room mill. The Ajax mill looks fine but cost about twice as much as the Toromach. Has any one out there compared and Ajax tool room mill with the Toromach. The two things that he seems to like about the Ajax is that it has a 2HP motor its own control and a much higher rapid feed rate. Any help is appreciated.

David :)

What Ajax CNC mill are you are talking about. I can't find a "Tool room CNC mill on the web site". Do you have a direct link.

Buying a mill for hobby use is like buying a new car. How much money can I afford to spend, add between 20% and 50%, then evaluate the alternatives based on 10% logic and 90% heart.

I would congratulate him and tell what an excellent choice he's made.

Regards
Phil

I have a friend that is in the market for a home CNC I have been telling him about the Tormach but he seems to be leaning toward an Ajax tool room mill. The Ajax mill looks fine but cost about twice as much as the Toromach. Has any one out there compared and Ajax tool room mill with the Toromach. The two things that he seems to like about the Ajax is that it has a 2HP motor its own control and a much higher rapid feed rate. Any help is appreciated.

David :)

http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=6079

Thanks :)

What am I missing here? I see:

1.5 HP spindle motor

Shorter travel distances, particularly Z

NO COOLANT

3000 RPM max (vs 4000 RPM on the Tormach)

Thousands more for program features that come with the Tormach

Rotary tables not advertised as 4th axis (don't know if they are or not)

BT30 Spindle, the Tormach is R8, I preferred the R8 myself with the TTS

The control is still a PC. You can buy a PC from Tormach, too, they will configure it for you.

Doesn't say whether faster rapids are from use of servos or whether they are compromising accuracy with gear ratio or running steppers at the high end. I would ask. You can push the Tormach a lot faster too, but then you run the risk of missed steps.

--97T--

Here is a better description, straight from the horses mouth:

http://www.ajaxcnc.com/DM45.htm

It doesn't look like either of them are that well protected from chips and coolant out of the box.

-Jeff

It looks like the Ajax has a lower spindle speed, 50 rpm vs 300 for the Tormach and that could be useful for some operations. The lack of coolant containment would be a problem for me and it looks like the controller might be Linux-based, which wouldn't thrill me too much either. The pendants look pretty cool, though.

So far my Tormach does all that I've asked of it and I've yet to see a comparably priced (+/- $5k) CNC mill that I'd rather buy.

Mike

BT30 Spindle, the Tormach is R8

IIR Tormach has a replaceable cartridge spindle and BT30 is an option.

Don Clement

The drop in cartridge spindle with BT30 can be found here:
http://tormach.com/document_library/Newsletter07_2006.pdf P/N 30505

Thanks for all the good feed back. Another thing that is playing into the equation is that he is actually trying to use this machine to make more than hobbies parts he wants to use it to make prototype parts for company's like a job shop for prototype parts, he is a professional machinist. He would like to have a production quality machine but I am wondering how close you can get to that and not spend 60,000 hence the Ajax vs Tormach.

Thanks,

You can lead a horse to .......

Regrds
Phil

Thanks for all the good feed back. Another thing that is playing into the equation is that he is actually trying to use this machine to make more than hobbies parts he wants to use it to make prototype parts for company's like a job shop for prototype parts, he is a professional machinist. He would like to have a production quality machine but I am wondering how close you can get to that and not spend 60,000 hence the Ajax vs Tormach.

Thanks,

Thanks for all the good feed back. Another thing that is playing into the equation is that he is actually trying to use this machine to make more than hobbies parts he wants to use it to make prototype parts for company's like a job shop for prototype parts...


That is exactly what I bought my Tormach for. I am not a professional machinist but the guys that work for me are. They all really like what they have seen so far with the Tormach.

i like the Ajax control with servo motors

if i had the extra money I'd buy the Ajax

but it's still the same class of machine and no matter how good the control is you still have a lite body in both machines

so for the best machine for the coast per pound I'd buy a bridge port and retro fit it with an Ajax control

What so great about the Ajax control.

Regards
Phil

i like the Ajax control with servo motors

if i had the extra money I'd buy the Ajax

but it's still the same class of machine and no matter how good the control is you still have a lite body in both machines

so for the best machine for the coast per pound I'd buy a bridge port and retro fit it with an Ajax control

What so great about the Ajax control.

Regards
Phil

i found it very easy to install on my Bridgeport

it uses servo motors instead of steppers

it handles 3 axis milling very well

it has optical connections to the drive boars (the tig welder doesn't make it go hay wire)

$3200.00 for controller and PC
$3000.00 for Bridgeport with motors and ball screws on all three axis

a much better buy than one of those smaller machines

Buying a Boss Bridgeport and adding these controlles would be IMHO a very good way to go if this type mill is what you need. The AJAX controls look to me like the Centroid control system. Which is being used in a lot of high production places & even on much larger machines. It is suppost to be a great control system.

I am not kicking the Tormach in any way. It looks like a very sweat setup. But I do think they will be limited & I wander about 3 years down the road , how is the machine itself going to be holding up if it is put to some hard use. Whats it goign to take to repair it ( Like the so called Plastic ways it has on some parts)

One thing about buying a Boss, is you can find them very cheap & in good shape with dead controls. So you could even take your time & have a second machine as back up for when & if things did ware out on the Boss. Take your time & with a little luck you can even find these machines for $1000.00 & I have even see a few that where for the hauling off of the machine. But you got to wait for that good chance to come around. On average around 3gs for one is normal. They already have the ball screws & some have the DC servos.

No matter how good the Tormach is, I dont see it compairing to a Boss. Even when it comes to space there is not much diff. And although I have not run a Tormach I feel the controls fall a little behind what the AJAX/Centroid controls are about. AJAX/Centroid is a lot bigger company with updates & refind controls with good service that many large companies use.

Now this is just my opinion from research. It seems there is very many people quit happy with there Tormach. But I would have to go with the AJAX myself. Even if I didnt get a Boss and bought there little machine package. There machine looks about like a Zay, and in that case I would have to give IH a look if this size machine was something I was looking for. But a BP is going to be hard to beat compaired to these smaller machines. You can go to the Centriod site & find a lot more about these controls. There is even better packages that dont need a PC but can still have one installed. I have researched around alot. the AJAX/Centriod looks like a good way to go to me if you can afford it.


After reading more about there machine itself, that machine for a small mill is built pretty good. the table travel is one thing I see being a but lacking.

Jess

The ajax controls aren't that great. They're not as intuitive as others that I've used in the workplace. Even mazatrol isn't that hard once you use it enough. It makes things pretty easy once you speak the language.
Fanuc can be a pain in the ass, but the newer controls are much more friendly than the old ones.

As for the Tormach...they aren't "plastic" ways. They are cast-iron ways with a layer of Turcite. They use that on some big, expensive machines too. Not every CNC machine has THK linear ways on them.

It's hard to compare a benchtop machine with a Boss. But a Boss isn't exactly a workplace phenom. Even with upgraded ballscrews and servos, they cannot compare to a new toolroom mill from Haas, or even a Hurco. Sorry, but the Boss is not that great of a machine. Bridgeports don't exactly have quality written all over them, like the "good old days".

Just because Centroid and Ajax have good things to say about their product...why don't you ask a few people on this site who have had problems with theirs?

The ajax controls aren't that great. They're not as intuitive as others that I've used in the workplace. Even mazatrol isn't that hard once you use it enough. It makes things pretty easy once you speak the language.
Fanuc can be a pain in the ass, but the newer controls are much more friendly than the old ones.

As for the Tormach...they aren't "plastic" ways. They are cast-iron ways with a layer of Turcite. They use that on some big, expensive machines too. Not every CNC machine has THK linear ways on them.

It's hard to compare a benchtop machine with a Boss. But a Boss isn't exactly a workplace phenom. Even with upgraded ballscrews and servos, they cannot compare to a new toolroom mill from Haas, or even a Hurco. Sorry, but the Boss is not that great of a machine. Bridgeports don't exactly have quality written all over them, like the "good old days".

Just because Centroid and Ajax have good things to say about their product...why don't you ask a few people on this site who have had problems with theirs?

all controls have there problems ,i very happy with the AJAX control on my BRIDGEPORT

most of the Bridgeport's being retro fitted today are from the good old days

i also like the Hurco machines

but Haas, wouldn't take a free one

it still comes down to comparing apples to oranges...a benchtop mill for prototyping and light manufacturing to bootstrap yourself...

and an old machine that needs a ton of work before it can do the exact same thing

a retrofitted Bridgeport is not going to perform that much better for the money...it's still an R8. Even if he were to find a 40 taper Bridgeport, it's not going to be skittles and beer....

the bench top will flex more then a Bridgeport would

and for a bench top tool room machine i have to laugh at that

I'm not sure how much flex you're going to have, but I have had the pleasure of seeing the Tormach in person, and it's column is beefier than the X3 or the IH mill. Not knocking either one, but this is one stout little benchtop machine. So the question would seem to be for me...are you trying to cut metal within the limits of the machine, or are you trying to take a .250" facing cut? I'm sure you could get the machine to flex if you were willing to crash it as a matter of practice.

Again it comes down to paying your money and taking your turn. Be happy with what you have...but that doesn't always mean that because something is more expensive that it is better. Somebody throwing in their opinion on a retrofitted Bridgeport when the question was between the Ajax mill and the Tormach seems like someone pushing their opinion. And then knocking the Tormach by stating things that they don't know for fact or are unaware of...not sure how that would be helping this guy get information for his friend.

I'm not knocking the Tormach

if i could buy only one of the two bench top mills and no other machine it would be the Tormach

but seeing i don't live in a communist state i suggested a way to spend the same money and end up with something better

i know your pro Tormach so i hope i didn't hurt your feelings

I'm pro CNC. I'm pro hobby. I'm also for affordable technology that performs. Remember when VCR's cost $800? Remember when a CD player was the size of a VCR and cost $1000? The sad fact is that a $35 portable CD/Radio from WalMart plays better than the top of the line home unit from the early 90's. And comparing an old Bridgeport of unknown origin that has been retrofitted with a brand-new out-of-the-box engineered product is not really the same thing at all. I for one would love to have an original Bridgeport, restored to perfection, to use at home for various projects. But I would prefer to keep it a manual machine. And for any projects that need CNC, I would use a Tormach. Thankfully Tormach doesn't convert a manual mill...because that would only add fuel to the fire that it's not good enough the way it is. For the money and the size it is pretty incredible.

I hope I didn't offend you...I enjoy this site and most of the people on it. I have learned alot about the DIY side...coming from a production environment, I often envy the ability of the tools I use everyday but had no hope of having one to play with in my home. With something like a Super X3 or a Tormach I now have the ability to do some pretty cool home projects.

for home use i would buy one as well and did consider it to be an option for the hobby stuff ,the shop is busy and can't get the time on the money machines to play

That's exactly why I want one...our machines are running two shifts, six days a week...not going to be able to play with them. We don't really have off-seasons or slow seasons, just different stuff at different times.

And although I have not run a Tormach I feel the controls fall a little behind ...I am not kicking the Tormach in any way

Why are you comparing a large heavy knee mill retrofit with the small compact Tormach, especially since you apparently never run a Tormach? One of the main reasons I ordered the Tormach was because of the compact size. If there were space for a heavy Bridgeport size knee mill retrofit then I would have sprung for a small Haas. BTW. Turcite is an amazing material, self-lubricating and non cold-flowing thermoplastic bearing material; The modern day Lignum Vitae. Turcite is used on very high-end precision machines with hydrodynamic ways such as Hardinge.