I am looking at buying a 1987 Yamazen CNC knee mill. The model number is 5VBK though Yamazen Inc. says they never hear of that model. I am looking for a manual or any other information about this machine.

Thanks

Vince

I went ahead and purchased it. The price seemed right. The seller found some paper work that indicates it was made by Sanki and Yamazen was just a distributor. Yamazen terminated their relationship in 1989 two years after the mill was made. It has an Allen Bradley Series B 8400 control. The paper work does not say what type of spindle it has. I will have to have someone who is more knowledgeable than me look and it and let me know. I plan on stripping off the Allen Bradley control and using Mach 3 to control it. It's a big project and hopefully I won't get bogged down.

I will post pictures once I get it to my shop.

Vince

I have a Yamazen same as the one you bought. Here are the details on my machine in case you find them useful. I cut and pasted them since I had mine for sale. I was wondering what you paid for yours, I sold mine for 5K. The was one on EBAY but I think it sold. Check out the pic.
http://cgi.ebay.com/YAMAZEN-3-AXIS-CNC-KNEE-MILL-W-ALLEN-BRALEY-8400_W0QQitemZ160011743676QQihZ006QQcategoryZ12584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


YAMAZEN 3 AXIS CNC MILL
Model: 5BVK
Model Year: 1988
Serial Number: 771757
Control Type: ALLEN BRADLEY 8400 MP
TABLE SIZE 42" X 13"
TRAVELS 30" X 15"
MANUAL VARI-SPEED 70-3800 RPM
POWER DRAW BAR
BOX WAYS
40 TP
5 HP 220/3PH.

Machine Manual
Control Manual
Control Schematics

Extra memory.
DNC capable.
AutoLube sytem.
Coolant and mist control.
Tool holders included.

Before you change the controller give it a try. I find it very user friendly and very easy to service and maintain. The machine itself is a good iron and the AB8400 controller reliable. Granted is an old machine- controller. I've had mine for 15 years. The IC's may go bad on you every 5 years but they are easy to replace and cost less than 10 each. If you decide to keep the AB8400 email me baytool@hotmai.com and I will give you a few pointers to keep it running at its optimum on the cheap. There are a few people that sell spare parts, form P/S to servo amplifiers, to servos in case yours may need any. The most important thing you will want to do is to remove the brushes on the Y-servo and check to see that oil has not soaked them. If it has, dissasemble the servo (carefull with the encoder at the end, but you knew that) clean it up, put it back together, then build a shield with brass or sheet metal on top of the Y-servo to prevent oil form the Y-screw dripping on the servo. After that TUNE all the servos. I can give you the specs or you can get them from the servo amplifier card manufacturer-the name scapes my memory but most machines from that period used the same servo amplifiers so thery are readily available.
More tips later if you want them.
BTW do you know anyone that runs virtual Gibbs on a MAC?

Napoleon, your email address bounces. Could you send my a private message or send to "vince at flyingcritters dot com"

Thanks

Vince

Here are some pictures of the Yamazen mill. I think it takes BT40 holders. I am so clueless on how this is going to work. I have no idea how to upload a program into the Allen/Bradley 8400MP controller (if it even works). I have only use R8 collets before and now I am findout out there are all diferent types of collets and even different pull studs. This should be an adventure.

Vince

Vince,

When you get the machine simply clean it up, level it and hook it up or have an electrician do it for you. Beyond that I will guide you from proper G-code format to file transfer and all the way to maintenace of the controller. You mentioned that the servos and servo amplifiers are not original, there you need to find out what brand they are and do some research on how to tune the servos so that you get 'round circles' or as round as the mechanical errors in the machine allow you to. Check out the servo amplifiers cards for a set of POTS- these you adjust to tune the servos.
The tooling on my machine is ETM 40. The draw bar has a 5/6-11 thread neumatically operated, and the taper is 40. It sound that your machine may have been modified so check before buying tooling for it.
Not sure how valuable is your time and your intentions are for this machine, but it would not be a bad idea to disassemble the table and see how much wear the machine has. That will give you a good indication on how many hours are in the machine. Also check that the screw nut assy in the Z axis is tightly attached to the spindle, there should be a couple of metric screws accessible from the left behind a cove plate.There should be a layer of turcite, check out how worn that is. You may want to run an indicator on to of the table and move the table end-to-end and that will also give you and indication of wear.
In a nutshell, check the machine for mechanical integrity and tighten it as much as you can for the type of work you need within the machine envelope. I think you can get this old machine accurate within .001 realistically.The rest is easy.
I am getting ahead of myself here. get the machine as ready as you can the let me know where you need a help.

My email address baytool@hotmail.com - typo error above.

From the picture of the controller I can see that the servo amplifier cards are the same brand and type as the original- so they may be original. The POTS are the row of yellowish-orange collor rectangular boxes with a tiny screw at the end. They sit next to the conector with the blue cables.

I hooked power to it today. When it powers up it has a message "battery or fuse open" and another about memory might be lost. I changed the two AA batteries on the 8400MP board, but did not see any fuses.

After is checks memory and I hit Exit a security log in screen appears. The guy who sold the machine to me does not know the code. I tried **** as the manual says that is the "anyone can use the machine code".

I have the 8400MP installation manual, but it does not say anything about how to boot up without a password. It says that is set at the time you purchase the machine.

The drives are original, but the paper work I have looks like the motors might be newer. I would really like to get this thing booted up so I can at least try to move the axis.

Thanks

Vince

Wow! Exciting new project Vince. Best of luck.

There is bound to be a "repair and service" code that works and is never changed, but who knows what it is. Need to find someone who services Allen Bradley controls, call and ask them. Tell them you just bought a used mill and can't get past the password prompt. They will have a procedure to bail you out.

Best,

BW

I was able to get the motor to run by manually pressing in the contactor. It sounds good, though there is noticable vibration at the max speed of 3,800 rpm. I cleaned up the knee ways and moved the knee up and down. There is noticable staining on the ways that could be rust. I can't feel it with my fingers but it is a rust color.

The one shot lube system is working. There is a 120V solonoid on the top of it and I thought it might be controlled by the AB system. There is a manual plunger that I operated 10 to 15 times over the course of an hour and I finally did see some oil dripping out of the quill. That's good since I could not find any lubrication point for the quill.

If I can't get into the contoll system I have been looking at some Pixies contollers that will work with Mach3.

One other nice thing I have found is though the machine takes 3 phase, the only three phase item on it is the quill motor. I could run everything else from single phase and separate out the motor wiring and run it through a VFD. Right now I have the mill at my work and we have three phase here, but I have only single phase at home.

Vince

The one shot lube system is working. There is a 120V solonoid on the top of it and I thought it might be controlled by the AB system. There is a manual plunger that I operated 10 to 15 times over the course of an hour and I finally did see some oil dripping out of the quill.

What gets neglected is the way oil system, its a pain, but it pays to replace the metering devices at the end of every oil line, on an old machine they may have never been replaced, what happens is they slowly get clogged and ends up only one spot gets the oil.
Al.

What gets neglected is the way oil system, its a pain, but it pays to replace the metering devices at the end of every oil line, on an old machine they may have never been replaced, what happens is they slowly get clogged and ends up only one spot gets the oil.
Al.


That will be another item on my list things to check. Thanks

Vince

The password was painfully obvious. ABMP.

Now I am going to start playing with it and see what kind of machine I have.

Vince

I played with the mill for the last couple of hours. I was able to measure the backlash for each axis:
Z 0.0002
X 0.0008
Y 0.0080
I removed the cover from the Y drive belt and watched the pulleys as I commanded a move. The pulleys were moving even with a move of 0.0001. I then removed the Y axis motor and turned the ball screw by hand. I can feel a slight "crunching" as I start to rotate the ball screw back and forth. I checked the ball nut attachment and it was tight. It looks like I will have to have this ball screw overhauled. I guess the next question is where to I have that done?

For the first half hour or so I could not get the mill to home. I kept getting the message "PC inhibiting start". I kept turning it on and off, trying different dials etc. and it suddenly started working, I have no idea why. Then the first couple of times it tried to home the Y axis, it faulted with an over travel. I used the handwheel to jog off and then it succeeded.

I was going to try the draw bar (though I have no tool holder) but I found the glass jar on the water separator broken.

In the MDI mode I tried feed rate from 1 to 125 IPM and everything seemed to work fine. It looks like I just have to get that Y axis ball screw fixed and I will be good to go (other than buying tool holders, since all I have now are R8).

Vince

Glad to see you found the pwd to log-in. It is all downhill from here. I think you will be happy with that controller. It is a good tool room machine if properly calibrated and maintained. I actually came over here to suggest the original password that I found for my old Yamazen-that being ABBC. But ABMP works! Based on your posts and emails you are very thorough and you would have found it given enough time and a decent strategy such as the ones we talked about yesterday.
Good luck with your new project. It is certainly is a labor of love. Here is the code for a simple 2D contour. Note that coding before N10 and after N25 will be the same for all programs. Therefore you will have to configure your post to input these lines. Notice that the first line is a colon (;) by itself. Set your tool offset at O1 ( letter 'O' number '1') I used to set mine at Z-2.0 programed below that. During MDI when you input a number, 2 for example, remember to place the decimal point after it, otherwise the controller will enter it as 0.0002. If you wanted say 2.0 then you must input 2 AND . (decimal point).

;
G70
G45O0
G0Z0.
M3
G45O1
N10G00X1.4406Y.0000Z1.0F20.0
N11Z-0.9191
N12G01Z-1.0191
N13X1.3068Y.0820
N14X1.2622
N15X1.3068
N16G03Y-0.0820I1.4406J.0000
N17G01X1.2622
N18X1.6191
N19X1.5746
N20G03Y.0820I1.4406J.0000
N21G01X1.6191
N22X1.3068
N23X1.3642Y.0469
N24X1.3981Y-0.0160
N25G00Z1.0
G45O0
G0Z0M5
G45O1
X0.Y0.
M2

I could not wait until Monday. I went back to the shop today an looked at the play in the bearings and found .0075. I removed them and turned the ball screw. It felt fine. One of the bearings felt crunchy. Now I need to track down some 47mmX20mmx15mm bearings in a matched set.

Vince

I received the new beiring pair from Nachi the week and installed them in the Y axis. Backlash in the Y axis in now 0.0008". I ran several test and I am getting 0.0002" repeatability. I am really happy with the hardware now.

I have been playing with the Allen Bradley control system and I just can't figure out their logic. I have the manual right in front of me and I keep getting different messages that keep the machine from doing what I want, so I have decided to scrap the entire control/drive system and install something else. I am looking at both Gecko 320s and Rutex 2020s. The Rutex drive are more than twice what the Geckos are, but they will be able to drive the motors at their rated 143V. Gecko has incredible customer support and I have not delt with Rutex yet. I have sent them an email to see how fast they respond to my questions. That will be a big part of my decistion.

I did start the conversion process today. You can see my progress in the picture:
http://www.flyingcritters.com/images/Mach3.jpg
Now all I have to do is remove the entire existing Allen Bradley controller/drive system, design and build a 140VDC power supply, install new servo drives, breakout board, ModIO, computer, display, and numerous buttons and switches. Another 4 months should do it.

Vince

I removed the AB 8400MP computer today. I will list it on eBay in the next couple of days. I was very carefull to label everyting as I disconnected it so I can understand the rest of the controls in case I want to re-use some of them. I am still kicking around the idea of re-using the Servo Dynamic drives with a Skyko Pixie interface. I'm just not sure if the two are compatable. I hate to waste the money and find out they aren't compatable. Othewise I will probably go with the Rutex, although I emailed them on Friday and still have not received a response. If I can't get a response on sales, tech support will most likely be even worse.

Vince

I have 90% of the old Allen Bradley 8400MP system removed. I still have about 50% knowledge of how it was wired and what it was controlling, but every day I figure out a little more.

I decided to start the new installation with the computer and monitor. I found a good deal on a Dell SX260. $200 with shipping. The great thing about this computer is how small it is. It has a 2.4GHZ processor, 20 gig disk and 784meg ram. About a year ago I purchased a Princeton Graphics 17" monitor for another project but never used it. I removed it out of its case and attached it to a new front bezel on the original pendant.

I made a bracket to hold the computer to the back of the electrical cabinet, and then when I was training the wires I realized that the entire computer would fit in the back of the pendant, behind the monitor. I also made a keyboard and mouse holder and attached it to the front of the pendant.

I am waiting for some boards (a Pixie 100 for one) before I can start re-wiring the cabinet, but in the mean time I am tracing everything out and making a plan on how to control what's left.

Vince

Vince, I'm enjoying your thread here. The Mach 3 name plate is a very nice touch. What did you use to generate the G-code for that?

I'll be curious to hear how your Skyko board works out. It looks like a good solution for those wanting to retrofit Mach to an older servo system. Also, congrats on the little Dell, it seems ideal.

What will become of your Bridgeport when the Yamazen is running smoothly? Did you ever track down the backlash source? Was sure sounding like the ballscrew last I checked in. Glad the bearings fixed you up on this machine.

Best Regards,

Bob W.

For the Mach 3 nameplate I posted a request for the G-code on the Mach Yahoo groups and a nice gentleman named Shaun Wainford emailed it to me. I still don't have a cad/cam package to generate g-code. I don't have a much of a need cad/cam, I usually just use LazyCam or hand code. I looked at a couple of packages, but I only used it every 3 months or so, I had to keep re-learning it.

When I get the Yamazen finished I will have to sell my Bridgeport. I don't have room in my garage or marriage for two mills. Right now I am renting space at work for the Yamazen. After getting the Yamazen's backlash from 0.008" to 0.0008" I think I may have found the cause for the backlash in my Bridgeport. The original bearing pair was 31mm thick. The new pair is 30mm. I made my own spacer and I think that is the problem. I ordered a couple of custom made precision steel spacers from Mitsumi. They will get here in a couple of weeks and I will see if that helps. I will hate to see the Bridgeport go with all the time I spent on it.

Vince

While I am waiting for my C11 board and my Pixie board, I have started to clean up and paint the mill. I realy, realy hate painting. To do it right it takes longer than it took to make the part. I am not doing the complete smooth and bodo, sand, sand, sand, primer, sand, filler, sand, sand, paint, paint, paint, color sand, polish process. I am doing just enough to clean up the machine and slow corrosion.

I have all of the Allen Bradley control system removed except for the original +5v, +-15v, +24v power supply. I turned it on and the 3 Servo Dynamics driver boards still worked! I did find that the 24V output was only delivering +8v. The power supply manufacturer was still in business and was failure with my power supply when I called them. It turns out that in order to properly regulate, the power supply needs at least 10% load on the +5V output. The only +5v was the Allen Bradley computer so now there is not load on it. I purchased 4-5watt, 20 ohm resistors to put across the +5v to give it some load. I will know this week end if that works.

I thought about scrapping the power supply and buying something more up to date (the manufacturer wants $450 just to IRAN it), but the servo drives take +-15V and it seems that most modern power supplies are +-12V. I would also like to have the +24V so I can reuse all the 24v relays that are already in place.

Vince

I spent this weekend grinding and painting. I ground off all the paint that was pealing on the main body of the mill. I still have to do the knee. I then used 3 cans of Rustoleum navy blue spray paint to paint what I could. I took longer to mask than to paint, but this is just normal. I looks like I could spend several months with bondo and primer, but my main concern is to stop any corrosion for now. I stunk up the shop pretty good with the enamel paint so I did not stick around to take pictures. A couple more days and I should have the knee cleaned up and painted, and then I can concentrate on installing the new control system.

Vince

Vince,

Nice work on your mill. The manuals for the Servo-Dynamic servo amplifiers can be obtained from them. They are a bunch of very helpful people. I once talked to an application engineer there that told me how to properly set up the card and tune the servos. Regarding the PS, check the +15 V terminal for voltage fluctuation. I believe there was a revision on these where the manufacturer replaced a few capacitors and resistors to eliminate voltage drop. I remember having to monitor +15 with a gage on that terminal and once every few months the reading would be as low as +8V. I sent the PS to the manufacturer and they replaced the required components, cost was under $200 and the problem was fixed.

I have the manual for the SD drives, it came with the mill. I made sure they were working properly before I removed the AB control. They worked smooth as glass all the way to 125 IPM. Now if I have problems interfacing my Pixie cards, I know that it is not the SD drives. I just purchased a new power supply off eBay. It has the same +-15V, +5V and +24V. I was told by the manufacturer of the existing power supply that the capacitors dry out and they need to be changed out every 15 to 20 years. They wanted $450 for that service. The power supply I purchased was $9.99 + $8 shipping. The only problem I see it my new power supply is limited to 1A at 15V. The SD drive manual says the drives take 350mA each. I will put a meter on them to see how much they really draw. I guess I could buy another power supply and run them in parallel. If I have to buy another power supply retail, it is still under $120.

Vince

Twice emailed the staff at this forum and still not allowed to edit old posts. Not happy. Ready to quit this forum.

Good luck with your machine Vince.

Twice emailed the staff at this forum and still not allowed to edit old posts. Not happy. Ready to quit this forum.

Good luck with your machine Vince.

It looks like after about two weeks you can't go back and edit a post. I don't think it is that big a deal, you can post a new message with a correction.

I spent another 4 hours prepping to paint the knee. I should be ready by tomorrow and paint again on Thursday. It is supposed to be in the 60's (here in San Jose, CA) by Thursday so it will be a good chance to paint. As it is, it is taking about two days for the paint dry enough for me to put things back together.

The mill is 98" tall and my garage door is only 78". I have been worrying about how I am going to get it into my garage. I had fleeting thoughts of laying it on its back, but I came to my senses. Looking through the manual some more I found that only three bolts hold on the entire head. I will just have to disconnect the motor, power draw bar and remove the Z axis servo motor. Now I am not so stressed about the move. I am still looking at another two months or so if everything goes according to plan.

Vince

It is a big deal to be able to delete my email address from this thread. Unwisely I posted it here. Soon after that my mailbox is full of spam. I'd like to be able to delete my email address from 2 weeks old posts. I don't think that is too much to ask. Emailed these guys twice and no response. Is that responsible of them?

It is a big deal to be able to delete my email address from this thread. Unwisely I posted it here. Soon after that my mailbox is full of spam. I'd like to be able to delete my email address from 2 weeks old posts. I don't think that is too much to ask. Emailed these guys twice and no response. Is that responsible of them?

Yes, that sucks. I am used to it by now. I get about 400 spams a day, but my email filters takes care of all but about 7 or 8 that get through. If you want to leave your email address but don't want to get spam you can type it like this: vince at flyingcritters dot com. Most spambots can't pick that up.

Vince

Well, it has been a couple of weeks of sanding, scraping and painting. This was just a quickie paint job, I did not fill any areas, just remove corrosion, cleanup and paint. The pictures shows my effort.

Vince

I cleaned up my computer installation in the pendant. I hung it from the top of the pendant. I also added a piece of 6x6 electrical gutter next to the pendant to give me room for my MPG and switches. With the back of the pendant attached, I have room enough for all the circuit boards I will be adding; 3 Pixie 100, CNC4PC C11 breakout board, and a modbus board.

I have a 7.5HP VFD drive coming. I hope I can fit it in the electrical enclosure. The only thing on the mill that takes 3 phase is the motor. This VFD will enable me to run the entire mill on single phase at my house.

Vince

Still making progress. I am excited about getting my MPG mounted and working. I also mounted a touch screen over my monitor. This is working great as well. I will have to update my Mach screen set to make better use of the touch screen. I have the EPO mounted and functioning, was well as the output for coolant on and off, and charge pump. I am still working on the spindle control. Something is not quite right. My VFD arrived over the weekend and I was about to mount it inside of the cabinet door. This will be really slick. I will have spindle control through software as well as hardwired switches. I never went this far with my previous mill.

I have heard that the Pixie boards are in an in the testing and software upload phase. I should get them in a week or so. Then the proof will be in the pudding, can I get the servos to move under Pixie control.

I have posted a picture of the monitor with touch screen, MPG and EPO.

Vince

I got the VFD mounted and running (an LG iS5). I screwed up my bid on eBay and ended up getting a VFD without a keypad. I needed the keypad to program the VFD. Once programmed, I can disconnect the keypad I can remove it if I want. I had to find a distributor for an LG IS5 drive, and order a keypad separately, a $77 mistake. The keypad arrived Wednesday. The drive works perfect. It's nice to see it accelerate smoothly instead of the across the line start it normally did. This should help extend the life of the belts and pulleys in the head. I ran it on single phase just to make sure it would run when I get it home. The manual says nothing about single phase but the drive did not seem to mind. I am going to try and find some breaking resistors (40 ohm, 300 watt). When the spindle is at the max speed of 3800rpm, I have to decelerate and stop longer than 7 seconds or the drive faults.

I was playing with my CNC4PC C11 board and was able to get the Mach software to turn on and off my solenoid valve for the mist/flood coolant. This is another nice feature my previous conversion never got. This mill came with the solenoid and relay so it was pretty easy to set up.

The Pixie 100 boards shipped today and I should get them by the end of next week. If I can get them running, I can start cutting metal.

I posted a picture of the VFD mounted in the control cabinet

Vince

I found a breaking resistor on eBay for $13.50. I can now decelerate to a stop from full speed in 1.5 seconds. Without the breaking resistor it took at least 7 seconds. I feel better about getting it stopped quickly in case I have to hit the EPO.

I received and mounted the Pixie 100 boards Saturday. I have a lot to learn about tuning servo systems. Not only does the Pixie have to be tuned, but the Servo Dynamics servo drives also have to be tuned to match the Pixies. On top of all that, I am having noise issues on my step outputs. I have tried ferrites and capacitors. The ferrites helped, but not enough. I am getting a replacement breakout board in a couple of days. From looking at my scope, the noise is not from the power supply. It is either coming from the computer or from the breakout board. It's very frustrating. I am very close to getting all three axis working under Mach control. The noise is causing all the axis to gain steps, and is probably affecting the tuning of the servos. I had a similar problem with my other mill and the Gecko 320 drives.

When I get stuff working properly I will post more pictures.

Vince

I didn't know you had a oscilloscope, that will make tracking down the noise a bit easier (although noise is always frustrating).

Check the step and direction lines right at the Pixie with the scope and make sure they are clean. The Pixie does have a noise filter in the cpld, but large noise spikes can sometimes get detected as steps. Also check the channel A and channel B encoder lines at the Pixie. Make sure the encoder signals are clean and noise free.

I would wager the noise is coming from the big servo motors and not from the power supply, computer or breakout board. You can try sending steps out with the servo motors off or disconnected and see if there is any noise on the lines. This might eliminate the computer or breakout board as a culprit. Also, triple check your ground connections on everything.

I checked the noise with the Pixies powered up, but the step and direction wires disconnected. I measured at the breakout board, not the Pixies. No motors were turning, no step or direction signals were being sent. If you can see in the first picture, I am getting a signal from about .5V to 2.5V (2V per division), I have the time set on .1uS (I believe, it is the lowest setting on my scope). The second picture shows the power supply voltage at the same setting. At the time the pictures were taken, the Pixies were doing nothing other than getting power, they were not connected to the breakout board. Each of the step pins on the breakout board had different voltages on them, with simular signals, but sometimes it would look like two signals or the voltage would jump around. When I first turned on the power to the breakout board all the output pins had nice flat voltage signals, either +5V or 0V. Once I commanded a move on any axis, the noise would show up on all axis and stay. All the direction pins had nice flat voltage signals, just like the second picture.

Vince

Sorry, I really can't tell much in the first picture...the glare and the trace is just not showing up well in the photo. So are you trying to say you are getting 2V of noise on your step and direction lines when they are disconnected from the Pixie?

Do you have a part # or schematic of your breakout board? I am curious how they are isolating signals and how they route ground.

So are you trying to say you are getting 2V of noise on your step and direction lines when they are disconnected from the Pixie?

Do you have a part # or schematic of your breakout board? I am curious how they are isolating signals and how they route ground.


Close, I am getting 2V of noise on the step only line when they are disconnected from the Pixie. The direction lines look just like picture 2, nice and flat. That is why I don't think it has anything to do with the Pixie, encoder, motor etc. The only common right now between the Pixie and the breakout board is the ground and +5V.

I am using a CNC4PC C11 board. I don't have a schematic. Arturo is sending me another board to try. When I told him about the noise he said "I have been thinking a lot about the noise problem you are having. It makes absolutely no sense. The board only has buffers, optoisolators, and gates.
None of those components is capable of generating noise. "

When trying to tune the Pixies, I could not have more than one at a time connected to the step and direction outputs from the breakout boards or they caused the other axis to fault. I put ferrites on the step and direction lines and was able to get them all tuned, but I was loosing steps.

Vince

Well if you had the Pixie, motor and amplifier disconnected from the step/dir lines and still had the noise on the lines, I would say that eliminates them as the problem :)

If you had an old parallel cable (like a printer cable) you *could* snip one end off and just wire the pixie board step/dir lines directly to the computer parallel port without a breakout board. As long as you are carefull about static discharge it could be a good way to test out the system. Of course if you have error in your wiring you could end up damaging your computer, so maybe it would be better to wait for a new breakout board to try.

I posted the following pictures of the noise I am getting below.

http://www.flyingcritters.com/images/Noise10.jpg
This is my 5V power input to the breakout board.

http://www.flyingcritters.com/images/Noise11.jpg
Time set to .5uS and 2v/division. X axis noise

http://www.flyingcritters.com/images/Noise12.jpg
Same settings, Y axis noise.

http://www.flyingcritters.com/images/Noise13z.jpg
Z axis, there is a little jaggedness on the left side of the trace.

http://www.flyingcritters.com/images/Noise15.jpg
Sometimes the Y axis looks like this. It depends on what keys on the keyboard have been pressed.

http://www.flyingcritters.com/images/Noise17.jpg
A zoomed in picture of the Y axis noise. When I press the X > key the noise changes to that of picture 15. When I press the X< key (even though I am monitoring the Y axis), the picture looks like #10, no noise.

Vince

I believe I have the noise problem solved. I was accidentally shipped an earlier revision of my breakout board that had some minor issues with the high speed opto isolators. I just installed the latest revision of the board and my scope screen looks perfect. Tomorrow I will start back on tuning my Pixie 100 cards. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Vince

I replaced my opto-isolated breakout board with a non opto-isolated one and all the problems went away. I am now able to rapid all the axis at the same time at 200 ipm smooth as glass, no lost steps. I could probably go to 300 ipm, but the mill is still up on 4x4 blocks waiting for a move and it rocks more than I am comfortable with.

Now that I have the drive system up and running, I am moving forward with some of the other controls. I hooked up the powered draw bar and after replacing some air lines, it works well. I am at a loss though with how the spindle brake was connected. It should interface with the draw bar or the draw bar will spin the spindle. I can't figure out how they did that. The brake has a solenoid that operates the brake. The brake needs to engage on both the tighten and loosen cycles of the draw bar. The only way I can see to make it work is through 2 relays, and it was not hooked up like that when I got the machine.

I also need to run the fault and reset signals to the control panel. Otherwise I have to open up the pendant to reset the drive. I tend to fault the drive by not having the drive power on before attempting an axis move.

Anyway, things are looking up. I had spent almost 2 weeks trying to track down the noise problem.

Vince

I went back in to work today and scrounged up a couple of 120V ice cube relays I could use to make the spindle brake work. I wired them up so that the brake would engage when either the drawbar in or out is run. It works well. I did not think it would make that much of a difference, but the draw bar engages much quicker and smoother with the brake on.

The next step will be wire in the automatic one shot lube system, and then start on the spindle control. I ordered a card that will change a step signal into a 0 to 10V signal the VFD requires. I also need to get the manual spindle controls and coolant controls wired in. These are going to be a little trickier as I have to work in a holding circuit.

Vince

Putting the noise issues behind, I have been moving forward. I added a power feed for the knee. That big knee is just too much work to crank up and down.

I have been running test to see how well the repeatability of the machine is. You can see in one of the pictures I have been using the roadrunner file from Mach 3. The lines overlap perfectly. There is a double image in the picture because I did not want to change paper and just moved the origin a little and did another couple of runs.

I have the VFD running under Mach 3 control. I did find a problem though. My VFD has to have an open circuit on both the forward and reverse direction pins when it is powered up, but with the speed control board I am using either one or the other is always closed. I figured out that I will run the signals though my EPO switch so when I start the VFD the EPO will be open and both the direction circuits will also be open. I will also run the 0 to 10V speed single through that circuit for added safety. The EPO actually controls a couple of 4 pole relays so I can have 8 circuits controlled by the EPO.

The pictures are of the power feed, the pixies, breakout board and speed control board, breaking resistor (under the VFD), and the roadrunner drawing.

Vince

I have been getting more into the controls now that the machine is running well. The Pixie cards can all be wired together so that when one faults, they all fault. I decided to wire them this way for safety. For instance if the Z axis faulted when it was supposed to retract, the X or Y axis could crash the tool. The Pixies can also be wired so that when you reset one, they all reset. I did that as well. I mounted a lighted switch on the control panel so that when a drive faulted, the switch would light up. Pressing the switch would reset the drives. I needed some way of having the Pixie light up the switch. I found the solution at http://www.cncbuildingblocks.com. They have an 8 relay board that will take a TTL signal and control a relay. In addition to the Pixie being able to fault each other, any of the fault signals can also supply a TTL signal at the same time. The relay board arrived yesterday and I wired it up like the manual said and it worked the first time. My lighted switch had a 120V light so that is why I needed the relay.

After playing around with it, I found that I had another problem. If the servo drives are enabled and the Pixie’s are faulted, the motors will creep. I thought about it over night and when I woke up this morning I had the answer. If the Pixie TTL output could drive a second relay, I could use that to tie into my EPO circuit which disables the servo drives. It also has the added benefit of shutting down the VFD that is driving the spindle.

After work tonight I wired in another relay to the Pixie fault output and tied that relay through the EPO wiring. It all worked. Now if a Pixie faults, it shuts down the spindle, servo drives and lights up the switch.

Next on the agenda is to install a latch on the pendent enclosure so I can open and close it easily. Currently is has two screws that hold it closed. Then it’s on to the manual/automatic switches that are mounted to the front of the quill in the original configuration. I would like to get them working again. I am thinking that I might be able to use the CNC building blocks relay board for them as well.

Vince

It turns out that I did not have a noise issue after all. The noise was generated on the break out board itself. I am using a different version of the board now and everything is going great.

I installed the latch on the pendant box. This enables me to open and close it easily to turn on the computer.

Thursday is moving day. I re-arranged my garage to make room for the mill. I am having a machine mover bring it from my work to my house. I removed the head to I can fit it through the garage door. Once I get the mill in place I will have to hoist the head up from the roof joist and set it in place. It is so tall that the head will have to fit between ceiling joist. I will take some pictures tomorrow and again on Thursday.

Vince

The machinery mover I hired picked up the mill at my work and delivered it to my house. They place it in the garage, but could not get it into the final location due to the low ceiling. They could have moved it all the way, but that would have cost more. They charged me $350 for a move of 7 miles and about 2 hours total. That was $300 less than any other quote I received.

I moved it by myself about 15' to its final location using pipes, Johnson bar and a pinch bar. To get it off the 4x4 block I had to tie a rope to the blocks while lifting it with the Johnson bar. It weighs 4,000 pounds. After getting it in place, I used my engine hoist and a hoist (attached to the rafters) to lift the head in place, again by myself. I made some custom bracket to lift the head so it would be level as I raised it. The whole process to move it in place and put the head on took about 2 hours.

I have some pictures of the process. My dog watched from the bed of my truck, looking quite bored with the entire procedure.

Vince

Just an update since my last post. I built a plastic housing around the bed to contain the coolant. It works well with very little coolant getting out.

I had it running as fast as 450 ipm (in its original configuration it would go 100 imp), but it was going to take a lot of tuning to get it to run like that consistently. I slowed it down to 270 ipm and have not had so much of a hiccup.

I am using a CNC4PC modbus board to give me 12 more inputs and output. I need these to control the coolant, external spindle start and stop was well as a few buttons I am adding to the control panel.

Here is a video of it moving along as 270 ipm.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3686030068739958567&hl=en

Vince

beautiful work N4NV only wish the items where in my garage


cheers

My mill has been running great except for one thing. The Z axis limit switch trips at certain RPMs and cutter feed rate. It happens about once every 30 or 40 minutes of cutting. When the switch trips, Mach does and e-stop and I loose my X, Y and Z positions which then requires me to re-zero everything then do a “cycle start from here”, a pain in the butt. The limit switches are high end Omron (about $100 each). I tried varying the debounce interval, but it still did it when I passed 5,000 on the debounce.

Since completing the mill, I started on a Hardinge CHNC lathe. The Hardinge uses Hall effect switches for all limit switches. Once I saw how well the Hall switches worked, I figured they would great on the Z axis of the mill since they would be immune from vibration. I purchased several Hall switches DigiKey:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=US5881LUA-ND
These switches are only $2.30 each. I made some switch mounts out of Delrin and epoxied the switches to the Delrin. Kirk had given me some 1/8” diameter magnets that are some special material and very strong. I epoxied one of these magnets to the Delrin piece mounted to the Z axis ball screw (see pictures).

The switches are three wires, 0V, +3.5 to 24V and output. I wired two switches in parallel (one for Z+ limit and one for Z- limit) to a CNC4PC C11G board with a 1K resistor across the +5V and pin 12 input. I then set up Mach for pin 12 active low. I lined up the switches so the magnet would pass about 1/8” away from the Hall switches. I ran the Z axis to both upper and lower limits and they worked perfectly!

After getting the switches adjusted I ran some test on the repeatability of the switches. I used a Mitutoyo digital dial indicator that reads to 0.00005” and is accurate to 0.0001”. I was amazed at the results. The Home Z axis repeatability was +- 0.00015”. No wonder Hardinge used this type of switch on their lathe. Just for the giggles I checked the back lash and found the Z axis to have 0.0004”. I kick myself for waiting so long to fix this problem. The total cost was less than $5 and some scrap Delrin, wire and a 1K resistor.

In the pictures of the switches, the white stuff over the wires is and epoxy putty to hold the wires in place.

Vince

Awesome tip on the Hall effect switches!

I'll bet they'll last forever with no moving parts too.

Cheers,

BW

Awesome tip on the Hall effect switches!

I'll bet they'll last forever with no moving parts too.

Cheers,

BW

They should last for a while. On my Hardinge CHNC which is 28 years old, there are 19 hall switches for limits and all that I have tested still work properly.

Vince

The Hall limit switches went so well, I moved ahead and made a speed sensor for the spindle. Up inside the top of the head where the quill shaft goes through the upper bearing, I saw enough room to mount a magnet holder to the shaft and there was a stud coming through the upper housing to mount my Hall sensor. The quill shaft had a keyslot machined into the shaft. I would use this slot to keep the mount from rotating on the shaft.

I drew up a tool path for the magnet mount in AutoCAD, saved it as a DXF file and imported it into Mach LazyCam. LazyCam generated the G-code for Mach. I cut the mount out of a scrap piece of Delrin I had laying around. Here is the Video:

YouTube - Machining a magnet mount

I cut the finished mount off of the block of Delrin with a chop saw, cut it into two pieces with a hack saw, threaded one half for 6/32 screws and machined a small hole for the magnet. The magnet mount has 4 raised bumps on it so that it would not cause a balance problem with the quill. Epoxy was used to secure the magnet.

Installing the magnet mount was quite a task as I could get one hand in the access hole, but then could not hold on to a tool. I only dropped two tools into the quill head. If that don't get your hear thumping, you're one cool cat. I retrieved both tools with a magnet on a string. With the magnet mount in place I could take the measurements to make the Hall sensor mount. That too was made out of Delrin.

I soldered a shielded 4 conductor cable (only used 3 conductors) to the Hall sensor. I held the sensor in place with epoxy putty. After the putty dried I sanded it down so it would not interfere with the magnet and would clamp flat to the top of the quill housing.

I had to remove my touch probe connection to the break out board as I was out of inputs. I used a 1K pull resistor across the 5V and pin 12 and set Mach for active low. When I ran a test it did not work. After removing the Hall sensor I found that I had installed the magnet backwards. The Hall sensor is only tripped with the south pole of a magnet. If you have a compass, the south of your magnet will attract the north pole of the compass.

I had to remove the magnet mount, pry the magnet out of the epoxy, re-drill a hole for the magnet, re-epoxy the magnet and re-install the magnet mount. After all that it worked great. It reads to the top speed of my mill at 4,000 rpm and down to 60 rpm. Below 60 rpm it reads 0.

My next project is to make the same part for my lathe.

Vince

PS, the black tube in front of the quill housing is my fiber optic light pipe.

hi vince
how do you wire them up in parallel and how do the three wires attach on the board.
im a newby at this and would appreciate any help.

john

hi vince
how do you wire them up in parallel and how do the three wires attach on the board.
im a newby at this and would appreciate any help.

john

I assume you are asking about the limit switches. All three leads just parallel. The ground leads tie to the ground terminal on the breakout board, the VCC leads tie to the +5V and the output leads tie to input terminal 12. I had to use a 1K pullup resistor between +5V and terminal 12 because the Hall sensor uses a logic low. On my CNC4PC board, each input terminal has a +5V terminal next to it which makes for easy wiring.

Vince

Well, I thought I had my problem with the limit switch tripping solved when I installed the Hall limit switches, but no, it still stripped. After a lot of testing I determined that all my limit switches were causing a fault. I decided it had to be a noise problem so I installed a 33uF cap (the only size I had on hand) across all the limit switch inputs. I ran my test program 3 times in a row without any trips (previously I never made it through the program)! Time will tell if this solves the problem for good.

Vince

I'm trying this setup and struggling so far. I have the same sensor's and swear I thought I have things wired correctly, apperently not. I have +5v going to pin 1 (VDD), pin 2 to the input on the break out board and pin 3 goes to the ground. I have a 1k resitor between the +5v and the input on the breakout board. I wave different magnets different ways and get nothing. What am I doing wrong, been one of those days?

I'm trying this setup and struggling so far. I have the same sensor's and swear I thought I have things wired correctly, apperently not. I have +5v going to pin 1 (VDD), pin 2 to the input on the break out board and pin 3 goes to the ground. I have a 1k resitor between the +5v and the input on the breakout board. I wave different magnets different ways and get nothing. What am I doing wrong, been one of those days?

Try different values of resistor. With my CNC4PC card, some of the inputs required only 300 ohm. On my new PMDX board, no resistors are required. You can also hook up the VDD to +5V, pin 3 to ground and a volt meter between +5V and the output pin. If it is working you will see a voltage change on the meter. The magnet has to be perpendicular to the sensor and it only works with the south pole of the magnet.

Vince

I had two threads where I was asking the same question, my fault! I'm moving over some info from the other thread to this thread to combine for both myself and other's to benefit from:-)

Other Thread:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73017

I don't which thread is better to have the info in. Mine was on home and limit switches so easier to find searching but this is the thread that really started the discussion on hall effect switches. I yield to the admins and those who know better to tell me what to do:-)

I assume you're not really using application circuit 12.1 just what you have listed above correct? I would wire up the circuit in 12.1 exactly, hooking grounds to the ground on the BOB and the Vcc to the 5V on the BOB. Before hooking up the Vout to the BOB, do you have a multimeter or better yet a scope? Personally I test on a breadboard on the bench (electronics, not machining) before it goes near the controller.

Yep, just using what I listed. I ordered the 470pF capacitor that I did not have. Was trying to get away with just a pull up resitor as the orginal poster of this was able to do, not my luck I guess:-) I do have some breadboards and a multimeter and orginally bread boarded it and was never able to get any change in the output?? I assume when they say that the output is active low that it turns into a ground when the hall effect sensor sees a magnetic field, is this correct?

Thanks for the help!

Mark [mkenney]


Mark [mkenney]

Try different values of resistor. With my CNC4PC card, some of the inputs required only 300 ohm. On my new PMDX board, no resistors are required. You can also hook up the VDD to +5V, pin 3 to ground and a volt meter between +5V and the output pin. If it is working you will see a voltage change on the meter. The magnet has to be perpendicular to the sensor and it only works with the south pole of the magnet.

Vince

Still working on it. When off the output pin is at .535Volts and when on it is at .022Volts. Any chance you could tell me what yours are showing. Starting to pull my hair out on this one:-)

Mark [mkenney]

Still working on it. When off the output pin is at .535Volts and when on it is at .022Volts. Any chance you could tell me what yours are showing. Starting to pull my hair out on this one:-)

Mark [mkenney]

With reference to ground or +VCC? I will bench test it today. OK, I just tested it. With an input voltage of 5.27V, between the output pin and ground I get .512V with no magent and .008V with the magnet. This switch is a current switch not like a regular mechanical switch. The voltage does not mean much. When the switch closes, it allows current to flow, so the reading of .022 looks correct for you. Think of it as reading across a mechanical switch, when it is closed you will not see any voltage. I still don't fully understand these solid state switches, but as long as they work, I don't try to. The change in voltage you are seeing tells me your switch is working.

Depending on the break out board you use and how their logic is wired, it could take from no resistor across the output to +VCC to 10K and just about anything in between. The resistor is to provide a voltage drop across it when the switch allows current to flow so the BOB can see a voltage at the pin.

Vince

With reference to ground or +VCC? I will bench test it today.

Vince

Reference to ground. MUCH appreciatted. I'm banging my head against a wall and botherring these nice people about it as well:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=19296

Thanks for the help!!

Mark [mkenney]

With reference to ground or +VCC? I will bench test it today. OK, I just tested it. With an input voltage of 5.27V, between the output pin and ground I get .512V with no magent and .008V with the magnet. This switch is a current switch not like a regular mechanical switch. The voltage does not mean much. When the switch closes, it allows current to flow, so the reading of .022 looks correct for you. Think of it as reading across a mechanical switch, when it is closed you will not see any voltage. I still don't fully understand these solid state switches, but as long as they work, I don't try to. The change in voltage you are seeing tells me your switch is working.

Depending on the break out board you use and how their logic is wired, it could take from no resistor across the output to +VCC to 10K and just about anything in between. The resistor is to provide a voltage drop across it when the switch allows current to flow so the BOB can see a voltage at the pin.

Vince

Thanks for the input, sorry for the late reply.

Well that makes a lot better sense now, my C10 board from CNC4PC must just not switch at the right point or something for this sensor? I tried lots of different pullup resitors and either got off (low) or on (high) all the time. Usually when I did get to high I would discover that I had cooked the sensor at the same time:-( So frustrating as I just love this idea so much and can't seem to get it to work. Any suggestions on a next step?

Thanks again for taking the time to measure your's!!

Mark [mkenney]

That device you show is open collector with a current capable of 50ma, so at 5v, the Min. resistance that can be used from output to 5v would be 100ohms.
Normally with an open collector device, when it is off there should be close to 5v on the output (collector) and very low voltage, <.5 volts, when on.
You only need a pull up if the circuit it is connected to does not provide a resistive path to 5v.
This device is called a sinking device and the BOB would be termed source.
It is important, especially when using this type of device to know the exact nature of the BOB input.
The voltages I mention are WRT common, or ground as I believe they use on that BOB.
Al.

That device you show is open collector with a current capable of 50ma, so at 5v, the Min. resistance that can be used from output to 5v would be 100ohms.
Normally with an open collector device, when it is off there should be close to 5v on the output (collector) and very low voltage, <.5 volts, when on.
You only need a pull up if the circuit it is connected to does not provide a resistive path to 5v.
This device is called a sinking device and the BOB would be termed source.
It is important, especially when using this type of device to know the exact nature of the BOB input.
The voltages I mention are WRT common, or ground as I believe they use on that BOB.
Al.

Probably not what needed but here are the specs on the digital input:

On-State: 2 to 5V DC
Min on-state input current: 1.1mA
Max off-state voltage: .8V
Max off-state current: 1.1mA

Do these figures give me something to go off to make this work for this board somehow?

Mark [mkenney]

To me those figures look like they would almost be from a sink type input?
What voltage do you get on an input when the switch is not connected?
Why they do not show the input diagramatically is beyond me.
Al.

To me those figures look like they would almost be from a sink type input?
What voltage do you get on an input when the switch is not connected?
Why they do not show the input diagramatically is beyond me.
Al.

I may be answerring the wrong question. When I test the inputs on the BOB itself, they are all ground without anything connected. If you apply 5V to them they trigger as on then. Anywhere close to what you asked?

Mark [mkenney]

If that is so, they are not ideally suited to a NPN sink device that your hall effect is.
Some one somewhere has probabally reverse engineered the input to show exactly what the input configuration is.
To feed 5v into them with a solid state device such as you are using, it would have to be a source type, PNP etc.
Al.

If the input is the way I think, one way may be to use the hall effect in reverse logic, similar to a normally closed switch.
To do this, with the hall effect disconnected, find out what the lowest resistor from 5v to input will turn on the input, try 500ohms and no lower than 150ohms.
When the input turns on, connect the hall effect, now it should work except reverse logic, when the hall effect is on, the input will be off, and vice-versa.
What happens is, the hall effect will force the input to common or off.
Not the best solution, but it should work.
Al.

Mark, are you sure the input to the BOB your are using is working? I went through a similar problem with my C11G board trying to get my spindle sensor working on my lathe. It turned out that the pin 11 input was not working on the BOB. Try some other inputs. I also found that the PMDX-122 BOB works great with these hall sensors without any resistors but you do have to reverse the logic in the software.

Vince

Looking at the manual, it appears it can be set for sink or source by jumper, http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C11GR7_1_User_Manual.pdf
This also show the PNP or NPN requirements.
I suspect the problem it is it set for source input devices instead of sink device.
Al.

Looking at the manual, it appears it can be set for sink or source by jumper, http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C11GR7_1_User_Manual.pdf
This also show the PNP or NPN requirements.
I suspect the problem it is it set for source input devices instead of sink device.
Al.


Wow, I think you can hit me in the head now! The NPN p[en collector sensor diagrams show a 12 or 24 volt external power supply being used with them. I don't have one of these connected, just the 5 Volt from the board. Vince is able to get away without this, but mine must want it???

Sound about right??

Mark [mkenney]

All my sensors are working at 5V (there are three of them). On my mill I have the CNC4PC C1 board. I am going to change to a PMDX 122 board as soon as my speed control board gets here from Peter Homann.

Vince

I think this new sensor is going to work with my board. 4.5 Volts on and close to Zero when off. Can't wait to try it off the breadboard and interfacing the BOB itself... Attaching the datasheet on it...

Mark [mkenney]

I think this new sensor is going to work with my board. 4.5 Volts on and close to Zero when off. Can't wait to try it off the breadboard and interfacing the BOB itself... Attaching the datasheet on it...

Mark [mkenney]

What was the cost on these? Never mind, I just checked DigiKey and they have them in stock for $7.22 for 1, $4.16 each in quantities of 100. No a bad price for a sensor that is already mounted. That would have saved me a couple of hours on some of my installs. I might have to order some and check them out.

Vince

What was the cost on these? Never mind, I just checked DigiKey and they have them in stock for $7.22 for 1, $4.16 each in quantities of 100. No a bad price for a sensor that is already mounted. That would have saved me a couple of hours on some of my installs. I might have to order some and check them out.

Vince

They are $7.22 with the part# 55100-3H-02-A-ND. I'm hoping to get some time today to try it out!!

Mark [mkenney]

Fixed! Someone pointed out that the pinout is different on the UA package but that the SOT-23 package is listed first in the table and confusing. The pins should be:

1- Vcc
2- Ground
3- Output

So i had the Ground and output pins reversed!!

Works like a charm now with over 4.5volts without a magnet and close to zero with a magnet next to it!!

Mark [mkenney]

Fixed! Someone pointed out that the pinout is different on the UA package but that the SOT-23 package is listed first in the table and confusing. The pins should be:

1- Vcc
2- Ground
3- Output

So i had the Ground and output pins reversed!!

Works like a charm now with over 4.5volts without a magnet and close to zero with a magnet next to it!!

Mark [mkenney]

I made the same mistake when I fist wired them as well.

Vince

I got some of these switches from digikey and without using the 1k pullup resister, with 5v going in I get a .60v normally and almost 0v when the switch is triggered. Should this be right? By adding the 1k pullup it should bring it to 5v?

Second question if I am correct would it be ok to wire the 1k pullup off the 5v Vcc input directly to the hall voltage output so I'm not sending .6v signals all the way to my control?

thanks