Hi All,
New to the forum and looking to get into CNC milling for firearms.

I have looked around quite a bit and have seen so many benchtop and mini mills I think I am going mad. Every one has features that I like or want, but most of them do not tell me what metals I can and cannot mill with the models.

Most of my work will be on aluminum, mild steel, composites. BUT, I may be doing barrel work and frame work later, so the kinds of steel would then be much harder steel, some stainless as well.

I also want a mill that I can do CNC or manual milling. As you well know, CNC is good for some types of work and manual milling is good for other kinds of work. I want the flexibility of both, the power and rigidity to mill whatever materials I am working on (listed above) and have a good all-around machine that will last.

Ya, I am asking a lot, and maybe building my own is the way to go, but honestly, I don't have the time to do the building part of it. I need to be able to buy most of it ready to go.

I am starting a small manufacturing business and that is why I want CNC - so I can repeatedly make parts and accessories. I am also beginning the process of getting my FFL (Federal Firearms License) so that I can do some gunsmithing and custom work for firearms. The overarching idea is to have at least 2 businesses serviced by this one machine. I may also be making small, custom parts and accessories for cars, so that may be a 3rd business. Only one may not be realistic, but I want to try. If I find I really need two mills, then so be it. I am not planning on doing all three at once. The first will be the firearms parts and accessories. Until I get my FFL issued, I cannot work on actions, frames, etc. anyway, so that will wait. The automotive parts is more of an idea right now, so that would be last. By then, I would know if I need more machinery or not.

So, budget is always an issue. I would say starting out my budget, all inclusive is around $3,500. I have the PC already. Otherwise, I would need the mill, CNC software and numerous cutters, accessories.

From my research so far, the brands that seem to be pretty god are;
Taig
Sherline
Flashcut ($$$)
CNC Express ($$$)
MAXNC
SmithyCNC ($$$)

I am open to other brands, this is just what I have seen or read about online as well as in precision metalworking magazines and books.

Many thanks!
~ TheShooter

How about the Sieg x2 or super x3 a lot of people here on the zone has them and swears by them.

What sort of work envelope do you need and what material do you expect to be working with?

Years ago I started with a Sherline manual mill and found that pretty modest depths of cut were required when milling steel with it. The Taig should be able to take heavier cuts from what I've read.

You might also want to check out the mills from Industrial Hobbies and Tormach, especially if you need to work on parts larger than the Taig or Sherline can handle. I'm a new Tormach owner and am very happy with the mill so far.

Mike

I second the Tormach idea. That would work very well for you, and it sounds like you would have the space for it.
I have both a Taig and a Flashcut-based machine, and both will likely do you want, but also very likely the Flashcut machine just won't have the bang-for-the-buck. The Flashcut system is definitely nicer in many ways, but whether it is worth the extra money or not is arguable in your case as for you they will both do the same job.
I have also worked with the Sherlines, doing gunsmithing incidentally, and they will be too light for your needs. I have no real experience with MaxNC stuff other than helping out other owners, but from that I have distinctly picked up the sense that thier entry-level stuff is not really something you want to get into.

If you are looking into production and can afford it, definitely look into Tormach.

I definitely have the room for any machine I decide on - an extra-long 1 car garage. There is room for a larger machine as well as lathe, drill press, etc.

The Tormach definitely looks like a nice mill. A bit pricey, but the idea is to get one that will handle production runs but also do custom work as well.

My work envelope is not huge since I primarily will be working with pistols and revolvers. Most of the benchtop mills are plenty big enough to handle any handgun frame or part.

The Taig machines look quite nice for the price and might be a good one to start off with and then maybe "grow up" to Tormach.

More research for me and looking forward to more feedback and suggestions from the folks on CNCZONE.

Thanks so far - keep it coming in!

I had to use a 1 HP benchtop mill with R8 spindle for some milling for awhile. It was a round column type. Junk! If you intend to actually make a living with this machine buy something truly decent. If you don't, you will scrap some expensive gun parts and waste a lot of hours doing it. You need at least a light duty vertical knee mill. A bridgeport clone of some type. Resist the urge to buy too light to get cheap. You'll pay dearly for it in the end. Remember you are not the only person trying to make a living at this. You will have alot of competition. Many of them with high dollar machines. I don't want to seem like a wet blanket, but if you don't get something decent to start with you could just end up wasting the investment your making and not having anything left to fix the problems you got into. For $3500 you should be able to get something fairly decent if you really shop around. Don't be to quick to spend it though if you can save up a little more and buy something nice. The Chinese machines that are available are at least solid iron, even if somewhat loose. Solid is what you'll need to cut alloy steels that guns are made of. Even aluminum takes some guts to cut if you expect to be competitive.

Have you looked at the Syil X3's? Already converted, I think it is something like 4k

I would stay clear and I repeat "STAY CLEAR" of the MAXNC machines. I am speaking from experiance. I own one and the money I have put into this machine just to make it work reliably (Am still putting into this machine) I could have purchased something bigger and better.

Hi Shooter;

For the most part I have to agree with chineguy you want to be looking at a larger machine. You may very well get good results with a smaller conversion mill if you are targeting just one of your three considerations at a hobbiest level. It would be in my opinion a huge mistake to have one of these mini machines try to service three different business opportunities at once.

So doing a conversion on a knee mill would be one consideration. With the right controller software this would be a possible starter machine. I'd rather see you consider a real CNC machine with a tool changer though. Mostly due to the substantially different businesses you are targeting. Using an R8 based milling machine is going to be slow, especially if the items have any complexity at all. This has the potential to cost more up front but I believe would pay off almost immediately.

The other option would be to CNC a couple of small manual knee mills. In the end production type work requires the coolant containment and other options that a purpose built CNC has. An old R8 mill conversion will certainly do for one offs but once you get to the point of making multiple parts i see them as getting messy fast.

Dave

I would rather own a worn out real CNC VMC that anything converted!
I fully agree with wizard. Here is something that no one has mentioned!!! What about feed rate? If you want to make money stay clear of anything that is not true CNC Most people do not realize that full blown Machines are no that expensive anymore(given you have the space if not never mind!)

When you say that full blown Machines are not that expensive anymore(given you have the space if not never mind!)What price range are you talking.

Also I have seen a couple of your posts Rally, you seem to be a little on the negative side whats up with that?

Hi Redline
I'm not trying to br negative but but I do this for a living and as a hobby as well. If a man starts talking high precision and production he clearly is in the wrong forum. As for the cost, there are places where a man can pick up used equipment for $15,000. I realize it is a big investment but it will at least have a high return. People mormaly would not think twice to lay down $30,000 for that new chevy,Ford,Dodge or whatever so what would be wrong whit investing on something that has high return.

I've seen used equipment go for even less. As long as the machine is in runnable and serviceable condition it will be an immediate advantage. Even if the controls need an update it would still offer advantages down the road.

The big issue is getting a handle on what the original posters production goals are. If the firearms work is one off then a CNC'ed knee mill that is at the same time easily manually operated will have advantages. Any CNC mill has the potential for manual operation, the usefulness of such is you ability to see what is going on. The other big advantage that a knee mill offers is a constant height of the head with respect to the operator, this can address issues of fatigue.

Those are considerations for one off or very limited production work. If the volume goes beyond limited then the real CNC mill will offer up significant advantages. The quantity "limited" being somewhat variable depending on the product.

I find your allusion to the cost of a car very interesting as I just had a discussion at work with the very same theme. That is a NEW CNC machine now cost less than a family car and often less than a nice pickup truck. The problem is that that is not all there is to starting up a business and cash flow is a big killer. Many here would also suffer from the same issue I have which is the cost of the facilities to put the machine into. Thankfully the original poster has space for his machine. For those that don't the problem is much bigger.

Dave



Hi Redline
I'm not trying to br negative but but I do this for a living and as a hobby as well. If a man starts talking high precision and production he clearly is in the wrong forum. As for the cost, there are places where a man can pick up used equipment for $15,000. I realize it is a big investment but it will at least have a high return. People mormaly would not think twice to lay down $30,000 for that new chevy,Ford,Dodge or whatever so what would be wrong whit investing on something that has high return.

No argument there! There are always many angles to be considered.
However, fact is this if someone is loking to produce parts with the nice finnish you just can't beat the blasted & filtered coolant.

OK, so I want to do one-off work as well as future production runs of up to 50 pieces. All workpieces will be rather small for produiction runs, no bigger than 2" in any one dimension and will likely be aluminum, not steel. The one-off work will be steel, stainless, aluminum, whatever... So, I want a large/powerful mill to handle that work and the workpiece sizes will be larger, more towards 6-9" in the X or Y dimensions. Primarily, all handgun work, little rifle work initially. Thus the desire to have manual/CNC on the mill.

budget - $8K maximum (another $2,000 is set aside for tooling, parts, repairs, etc.). Obviously, I need to go with used, looking at Bridgeport Series II & BP knock-offs. I don't care if it is Asian or otherwise, just as long as it is in good condition and a good machine.

I have the room, so that is not an issue. :cheers:

I have been looking all around and have found a used machinery dealer in Santa Clara which is only 60 miles from my home. That way I can go down and look it over before I make the deal complete.

It does not have to be local, but it would be better so I can see it, touch it, etc.

FYI - The last time I plopped down money for a car it was $700. The one before that was $500. The one before that was $9,500 brand new. Cars are just devices I need to get me and the family around, so we keep it cheap, but safe. Yes, I am also an auto restoration junkie. :cool:

the last two guns I bought were $1470 and $1200, so clearly I have my priorities right... :rolleyes:

Anyway...

That's the deal right now.

Thanks to all who have chimed in... it is really helping me steer in te right direction and (hopefully) avoid any BIG mistakes.

Let me clairyfy one thing before you go and buy a bridgeport. When I was talking about a VMC I did not have a $300,000(new cost) machine in mind.
Have a look at a baby Herco or Haas Setting up and working with these machines is as easy as a bridgeport but in addition you will not have the mess with the coolant (When blasting chips away with coolant will ALLWAYS create a nicer finnish.
Regards!

I was just going to suggest the bridgeport Series II or something of the like. For 8k you can buy a good used bridgeport. As far as industry goes (which you plan to enter, even if not heavily), aluminum is all about speed when it comes to production runs. To make money with aluminum for production means fast turn around, so machines capable of high feedrates.
I make receivers for Thompson Center Arms (now smith and wesson), and I work on barrels for them as well. I don't know anything about guns, but I know those are some tough steels. The stainless can be pretty tenacious, and tough to get a good finish on. YOu really will want a flood coolant for this stuff. The bridgeport's I've seen have all come with coolant systems already.

with steele stay away from the light duty desktop machines. to slow and light weight for steele. im not saying it couldnt be done. but it would be slow. it took me 27 hours to machine a block of copper 2x3 inches on the maxnc.
i wont tell you WHAT to get because I dont have any experiance with mid to heavy duty machines that are affordable. But I sure as hell can tell you what NOT to get!

Ya, the more I think about it and get ideas/feedback, it seems that a BP/BP clone is the way to go. At first I though ti was just too big of a machine. Now, I think it is the right sized machine for me.

I will begin in earnest looking seriously at the end of February when my bonus comes in. At that point I will have the cash.

Eventually, I will be working towards building custom 1911 frames, but they are pretty advanced for me right away. For the short term, I need to get good at both manual and CNC jobs, hack up a lot of metal, probably bust a few tools along the way and figure out my own processes and techniques.

One thing I was looking for is a spindle speed/metal/tooling/feedrate calculator or estimator. Basically, I would like to say I am using XXX metal, describe the kind of cutting I will be doing along with a few other details and comup up with recommeded feedrates and spindle speeds, especially when I begin doing steel work.

I have a father-in-law who was a machinist for about 10 years and he had a BP clone (he thinks it was a sampson (sp?) knee mill. Anyway, I am hoping that I can have him train me on some techniques and basic setup. He was a good machinist, self taught and had a pretty good business doing contract/bit work for various high volume shops needing assistance. He has Parkinson's, so I am hoping that his getting involved with helping me will help in the self-esteem area as well as getting him more active overall.

So!

BP/BP clone, Series II, CNC/manual capability - looks like this is the type of machine I will be looking for once I get back from London. Yes, I work for a big bank and I am going to London to work on a project for their IT department. That is my real job. :wee:

I am a Business Continuity Manager - interesting work, but it does not pique my interests the way anything mechanical does.

well with my experiance and under powered spindle motor, I have found that I adjust my speeds and feeds to get the best chips. not dust. Just remember that the smaller the cutter, the faster the spindle speed.

Shooter, this is the mill I use for my firearms stuff:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40939http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40939

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/40900-40999/40939.gif

I'm not necessarily recommending the HF mill, but size wise, this has been a very good mill for me. I have built three 1911's on it (one 40% receiver, and two 80% receivers) and have built four Browning 1919A4 machine guns on it (semi-auto conversions, of course). I am not sure I sould want the HF for production runs, but I would definately recommend the larger mill versus a bench top size.

Tormach PCNC 1100 no question. Its 500 kgs of first class CNC machine. Forget about needing manual capability. Its a piece of cake operating a CNC mill as a manual, and quicker. You have power feed and a DRO on all axis. Type in a set of coordinates hit return and it just goes there. Then use the jog facility to feed as you want.

www.tormach.com

Regards
Phil


budget - $8K maximum (another $2,000 is set aside for tooling, parts, repairs, etc.). Obviously, I need to go with used, looking at Bridgeport Series II & BP knock-offs. I don't care if it is Asian or otherwise, just as long as it is in good condition and a good machine.

I have the room, so that is not an issue. :cheers:

Wander over to the Roderus forum, google it. They have homegunsmithing info and a machine forum as well. Guys on that sight do 80% 1911 frames with the mini mills from HF.

Sounds like you want something larger than the original list you posted. Just keep in mind when budgeting the cost of tooling can quickly amount to large % of your budget, most people get tooling as needed to defer the expense as much as possible. Also software will cost you along with other incidental items you will encounter. I would look are lurk at that reseller in Santa Clara for a good machine maybe just in need of a re-fit to update the CNC components. Wish I had someplace like that local to try and scoop a deal up.

Good luck and remember nearly everyone who gets their 1st mill almost immediately wishes they had a bigger one so get as big as you can afford.


Bowman

the last two guns I bought were $1470 and $1200, so clearly I have my priorities right... :rolleyes:

Have I seen you somewhere before? AR15.com perhaps?(flame2)

AR15.com - perhaps?

Sounds like you want something larger than the original list you posted.

Yes, my requirements have changed as I learn more about the types of machines and their capabilities, or lack thereof...

I have decided to do something of a blended solution.

1. benchtop small mill, manual. Good for prototyping, playing, testing, learning - cheap.
2. full size Knee-mill, initially manual, but buy CNC retrofit kit so when I am ready for CNC, I can do the conversion.

Unless I can find a Very Good to Excellent condition knee mill WITH CNC, I will likely go this route.

I will also be getting a lathe - unsure of size brand but beginning research on those now.

Definitely will get a coolant system so when cutting steel and doing faster cuts, I can have assurance of better overall quality/cooling.

~ TheShooter :banana:

Well then, now I recommend looking at used bridgeport's. Bridgeports last a very long time, 30 years is not old at all. And you can get used ones for less than you may think. Check ebay for local listings. After that, there are many kits available exclusively for Bridgeport or bridgeport clone stuff. I recall hearing that Hiwin even manufactures a ballscrew specifically for the bridgeport. Damn, I wish I could have one.

Looks like you really should revisit the Tormach. It's by far the stiffest of the square column type, based on photograph and weight comparisons, even compared to the IH.

In my opinion you don't really need manual and CNC. Its much easier to use my Tormach in manual mode than it ever was to use my manual mill in manual mode.

regards
Phil

Yes, my requirements have changed as I learn more about the types of machines and their capabilities, or lack thereof...

I have decided to do something of a blended solution.

1. benchtop small mill, manual. Good for prototyping, playing, testing, learning - cheap.
2. full size Knee-mill, initially manual, but buy CNC retrofit kit so when I am ready for CNC, I can do the conversion.

Unless I can find a Very Good to Excellent condition knee mill WITH CNC, I will likely go this route.

I will also be getting a lathe - unsure of size brand but beginning research on those now.

Definitely will get a coolant system so when cutting steel and doing faster cuts, I can have assurance of better overall quality/cooling.

~ TheShooter :banana:

Just pony up the dough and buy a real cnc, like a Mazak or at least a Haas

yeah just pony it up.. might as well get the 5 axis option as well.. lol

The costs of metalworking are so high in overhead. This is the time you start to think about people selling real estate and how they have the overhead of a computer system, cell phone and a small office with some paper. So many other professions with minimal investment risks to get into and no overhead or stock much less actually having to make a product. I think about how much a production shop would cost to setup.. EEKS Probably spend more on endmills and drill bits then the people at the ABC insurance office with its 2 desks in a room.



Bowman

Our factory spends 50k per month in parishable tooling alone.

One thing I haven't heard mentioned is power. Is 3 phase available? If you go with a Bridgeport or clone they will most likely require 3 phase power or a phase convertor. Either option can add considerable cost. I have reworked a BP series 1 by adding an invertor to the spindle and updateing the controls to run with 230 single phase so it could be used at home. Just something to consider.

Good point Cholder. Do not overlook powering the machine. Usually your reading the machines specs and think yeah, yeah, yeah and always at the end they get you with the power required if your trying to work from home. It can be done but its another expense to consider. Nothing is cheap in this realm, even scrap cut offs are worth money on ebay ;)

Bo

Well then, now I recommend looking at used bridgeport's. Bridgeports last a very long time, 30 years is not old at all. And you can get used ones for less than you may think. Check ebay for local listings. After that, there are many kits available exclusively for Bridgeport or bridgeport clone stuff. I recall hearing that Hiwin even manufactures a ballscrew specifically for the bridgeport. Damn, I wish I could have one.

What weed are you smoking our machines get replaced about every 10 years.
If you had a crew that really takes care of the Machine then yes you will see a long live but that is almost impossible to do in a business because most people don’t care about someone else’s stuff. I have worked in different machine shops for 20 years and machines was a treated the same everywhere I worked. Not to mention the fact that Factory installed Oilers over time get forgotten and the ways wear out rapidly.

What weed are you smoking our machines get replaced about every 10 years.
If you had a crew that really takes care of the Machine then yes you will see a long live but that is almost impossible to do in a business because most people don’t care about someone else’s stuff. I have worked in different machine shops for 20 years and machines was a treated the same everywhere I worked. Not to mention the fact that Factory installed Oilers over time get forgotten and the ways wear out rapidly.

:bs:
Why don't you check again? I've used bridgeports which are about 35 years old. They originally saw service at a local navy shipyard. And yet, I personally have held .0005" on them. They are still rock solid. Coupled with a DRO, they are tremendous tools. At the shop I am at, our bridgeport clone is probably 20 years old or so. We use that thing constantly, never a problem. Why don't you post this in the Bridgeport mill's section of this forum

And what kind of bridgeport have you used which have rapidly wearing ways? I didn't know Sieg made a bridgeport clone as well?
Bridgeport's and clones have flame hardened ways. I will tell you now, these are NOT fast wearing. Perhaps if you used them bone dry for a while, though this is rather unusual.