I am interested in making some full size engine connecting rods out of some type of billet (steel)for race engines. I am not a machinist nor do I have a machine at this time. But being dissabled now and spending my whole life in racing & building race cars it seems like a good place to take my love of racing & skills to ( making specailty parts). I have some time on manual machines but not much more than what a good Auto machine shop would do back in the older days.

The only thing is I just do not know what I need to start this. Will a small mill do this work. I know there would need to be honing to both ends but can this be done at home on a small mill ( then a local shop can finish the honing for me). If so will it take a bigger machine than a X3. Of course I will be wanting to make other thing but they will not be as hard as this. If I had a maching that would pull this off the rest of the things I wish to make should'nt be a problem.

I am not to conserned about doing it fast. I would rather spend my money on a very good machine and deal with it and then go CNC later. It seems the X3 may be a bit light to do this kinda work but I dont know. If so what would be a good size up from this to handle the work. I have spent a lot of time ready this forum and other info but it gets a bit over welming & I need some direction on what I need to be reading up on. I want be buying any machine for about 4 months, there is just to much to get a understanding of to even think about making a purchase without putting alot of research into. But I will have about $5000.00 to work with when the time comes for me to make choises. The subject of machining is so vast that I quickly realized that I need to stick to a few guns instead of trying to equip for a vast range of projects. Most other things I need to make are pretty simple but the connecting rods have me wandering what I need. Where do I go from here?


Jess

I bought a on old CNC. It's a big, heavy duty and accurate machine. I got it for around $2,500. I think this is a way better deal than most of the small hobby machines that are out there. It takes up a lot of space and requires a 3-phase converter though.

If I were to do it again I would probably have gone with a Tormach system. For around $6K you could get a new system. The other system I looked at was the shopmaster tri-power (similar price and it's a "good" 3 in 1...most 3 in 1's aren't considered good at anything). I don't know what the material/hardening requirements are for a connecting rod but a CNC mill would do the trick.

That being said, I'm still working on my shop and to have a basic shop you almost have to have a Mill, a Lathe and a bandsaw so it's quite a hefty investment. You don't have to have a CNC mill but if you want to make many parts or any unique shapes it sure helps.

Chris64, thank for your reply.

Well it sounds as if making con rods on a mill is possible anyway. I am not sure of the metals hardness but 4340 billet & better will be the metals used. I will use some AL to get the design & process down but in the end it will be good metal. In time I would put in the honing equipment to do the whole job in house ( besides cyro treating & shot peening).

I really think it would be best for me to stay away from used machines because of not having the know how to even know what I was buying was usable. But still I have been around machines all my life so its not like I would'nt have some idea. I am old enough to of been making 10 second passes in Hemi cars back in the 70's, although I did get a good start when I was young with the hot rodding and building cars. Having & building a few fast cars before I was old enough for paper to make me legal on the road. So I am not totally over the hill yet.

From what I read the 3 in 1 machines seem to be something I dont want. I believe my needs will require a bit better machine than this. Although about 80% of what I want to do could be handled with a 3 in 1 or small equipment there will be the few things that need a good machine. Having a life long tool set already the machines and tooling will be the main things I have to buy. I will have more than the 5g's to start with but I also inteand to buy a lathe around the 2g range & already have a Miller Tig on the way. I use to run & own my own performance shop & outside some learning curves & the computor side of CNC I feel I will be able to fall right into to this type of work. Dont get me wrong I dont expect any thing to be easy. And I also only have about 10g's to get me started so I need to make my choices good and will be needing the returns from my investment to pay the way to go farther.

As far as a mill I really dont want to buy more than I need as long as what I get can do the job. And I would kinda like to start out with manual ( but dont have to). My main consern is getting a machine that can handle making the con rods. But I could see it very easy to spend 1 or even 2 g's on tooling to be able to jump into many deffernt jobs. But if there is a CNC around the 4 or 5 g range that can handle making the con rods then I would probably go that route & sqeeze myself on just the major needed tooling at first. I just dont know what class machine I need to handle this & if I have to pay 3 to 4 g's for just the machine the CNC will have to wait. My son has several years in auto cad and other softwear so if I do go CNC I will have some daily help even though it would still be a learning expierance for both of use. We also already have any computors needed to run a machine & if I need more computor I am capable of building it myself. But my first consern is the machine itself handling the job and being no bigger than I need. Although my shop is not real small I dont want to use no more space than I have to, but I dont want something that I am pushing the limits on a whole lot. I also would like to stay single phase at least at first but if its really needed to get started then I will do 3 phase.


I am not going to even get into the how to's of making the con rods yet, I intend to get many training Vids & a lot of research before I even start to buy equipment or put tool to metal. I am sure the CNC would help to acomplish this but I feel sure it can be done manualy even if it does take a lot of work or setup to ensure matched sets & quality. To acomplish this with a manual I know it will take some skill but if it comes down to that I will take the time to get my skills to this level before making them. I just need the machine & tooling to be upto the job & dont know what machine can handle this type of metal & job and then be converted to CNC if its not already.

This may be the wrong topic in the forum to be asking such aquestions but I wasnt sure where to put this. Even though I dont know the right questions to be asking maybe some ideas from the forum can get me pionted in the right direction. Well I'm off to read & research more.


Jess

I've heard bad things about most 3 in 1's. I don't have any personal experience and I want to believe that they would be OK because they are inexpensive and don't take up a lot of room. I've heard that they perform both functions OK but don't perform either function up to the level of a stand alone machine.

If you want to go CNC, again consider:
http://www.tormach.com/
If you want to try 3 in 1 consider:
http://www.shoptask.com/

Really it comes down to size. A good place to look for a huge variety of mills and lathes would be
http://www.grizzly.com
or for the super budget machinist (read...buyer beware)
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Category.taf?CategoryID=264&pricetype=

If you are seriously considering converting to CNC, I would look into the tormach or the CNC options with the shopmaster. Grizzly even has a nice looking Knee CNC (The controller alone would be around $8K). I've been having a hard time finding a decent turn-key controller setup for under $6K. Both the Tormach and Tri-power offer a full CNC system for around that amount complete. You could build a system for way less but you really have to do your homework and then it seems like you end up with a bit of a half baked system.

As far as unobtanium metal cutting...it seems to mostly come down to the cutter. You just have to take things slow and expect certain metals to wear the endmills faster than others. Again, I'm still just figuring this stuff out but I've been where you are not too long ago so I can at least share my experiences.

good luck.

Thanks Chris64, yea there is a lot to take in when your just starting to look into all this and have no expeirance with the performance of each machine out there.

I have already done some research on the Tormach you listed and I must say this is impressive for this amount of money. I could see the extra money being worth it in the long run if I was to spring for this type of machine. Not to meantion the abilities it would give me to be able to do a vast range of work which would help to keep a income flow for sure. I really just dont want to get into building my own setup unless it is down the road after I have learned a lot more & this machine looks like it could cary me for quit awail if I was to dig deep enough to buy it. It has got me thinking for sure but I have plenty of time for that. The size and weight of this machine fits into my shop room very easy also. The only thing is it is quit a bit more money than I was planing. By the time I have softwear,tooling and maybe a fourth axis it would take up all the budget I have and leave no room for other things. But I believe that would be returned pretty easy once up and running.

Again thanks for your time & all the links, I will research plenty more for sure.

Hope you have had a good new years & Thank you.



Jess

Thats a real tall order..To make / manufacture billit steel rods on a manual machine...Design, tooling , jigs and set up is an awsome job..just real time consuming and technical..Even with 35 years experiance ( and a lot making some real horse power) as a machinest/ engineer, it would be overwhelming..not impossible..but real difficult.


I had an accident 4 years ago that left me in a wheelchair..I found it difficult to operate my manual mills and lathes, so I retrofitted to CNC. The Mill is done, has produced some very nice parts..but I had to learn a CAD/CAM program ( vector 10 ),and learn how to program at an old age..just a real big learning curve ( for me anyway..some of the younguns are really fast at this ), had I not had the math and machining experiance, would have a been a long ..long ..haul..still have a lot to learn in CAD..still have lots of tricks to learn in CNC machining..

My advice would be to download some CAD/CAM free programs ( most give you 30 days free trail ) and see how you do..try several..then research some CNC programing, get some books ( CNC for Dummies, like me ) do some tool paths..then really study machining tecniques..Then you will be ready to evaluate machines and tooling..tooling can be very expensive, but correct tooling is as important as the machine.. it takes time, do not waste your money an an inadequete piece of machine that becomes a big boat anchor in your home shop..and remember, have fun at what you are doing !( and be safe)

Adobe (old as dirt)

hi

well said Adobe Machine Happy 21st Birthday ;)

Question , Why spend all that time and money in just making steel connect rods ?

the market place is floated with them from cheap chine's , Taiwanese and other country's out there European , Australian and USA makers of steel conrods.

There are good and bad conrods out there.
from carrillos , manley , crower , eagles , scat , arrors the list is endless

and to use a small cnc milling machine it will take ages to do one rod at a time

most con rod manufactures are doing a jig form of rack of 6 conrods or more spaced out on a milling table less down time

wish things go well for you , happy machining.

cheers

hi

well said Adobe Machine Happy 21st Birthday ;)

Question , Why spend all that time and money in just making steel connect rods ?

the market place is floated with them from cheap chine's , Taiwanese and other country's out there European , Australian and USA makers of steel conrods.

There are good and bad conrods out there.
from carrillos , manley , crower , eagles , scat , arrors the list is endless

and to use a small cnc milling machine it will take ages to do one rod at a time

most con rod manufactures are doing a jig form of rack of 6 conrods or more spaced out on a milling table less down time

wish things go well for you , happy maching.

cheers



Yes I am sure it will take some time for sure. The reason why,

One, I get a lot of satisfaction making any & all things for my HotRod. The more I can do myself the better it feels when I take the win light against a big team or factory backed racers. I just love it I cant help it.

Two, there is no company that makes rods for my aplication. When I contacted a few of the rod companies about making rods to handle the HP that will be produced the price exceads $2000.00 or more ( and this is only around 1000hp, nothing real big on power). I believe I can make them for around $400.00 to $600.00.

Three, If I can achive this then I can be the one selling the rods for $2000.00 also.



In the end if I can supply them for myself I will be doing good. Even if it takes me alot of time it will be worth it for my own needs. Plus the skills from achiving such a thing can go even farther into other areas which will make me a better machinist & Racer.

As far as a small mill, the more research I do the more I see how important choicing the right machine is going to be. I have narrowed choices down to few machines but am unsure at this time which will be the one. Even at that I do plan to keep my eye out for a good priced Brigdeport to bring bach to life. In my area I do see them around quit a bit but I dont want to buy one first and have to rebuild it before I can even make parts so I will buy a fairly good size & quality machine to get me started & pickup a some old iron for a good winter time prodject. Right now I believe the IH,Tormach or the Grizzly 1240 will be a good setup for me. The more I reseach the IH or the Barebones 1240 may just be my choice & I can do the CNC myself ( which I think will give me a better machine in the end). I dont have to be making ConRods right off but in time I do hope to achive this and even more. To tell the truth the more people think this is a bit much for a home shop to be doing the more I am getting hyped about doing it. Kinda like running a Tunnel Ram & two fours on a street engine. Most say stay away from it, but its the best setup I ever ran on may street cars in MPG, power & drivability. But it does take a lot of work to make it happen. But aint that part of the fun.


Jess

I always thought strong conrods were forged and not machined from a billet? I know when we were making hot VW motors the polished standard conrods would survive 99% of the big dollar chevy H-beam rods, they were forged 4340 I Beam.

i am currently running fairly large sized connecting rods at work right now , they are castings run on a horizontal cnc 4 axis 1 op.
something that looks so simple is actually a very involved part ,on a good day we get three parts per shift and we don t dick around
you may need to look at the number of operations involved if your going to run them on a bridgeport , you will be looking at a good number of them ,
don t get me wrong ,i say all the power to you , have fun !
remember save the spot faces and bores to the very last operation

after doing a search ,typical connecting rods are fairly straight forward,the ones we are doing are slit , drilled and tapped at an angle on one side for the small id and where it s split at the large id we bore and add bushings before reasembling the two halves which i would suggest you do in order to uphold a better accuracy if you plan to do some balancing and want everything to stay the same when dismantling and reassembling
have you concidered using aluminum?

If you want to make useful things for hot rods there are many more items other than a part that is highly stressed and so open to failure.
You could specialize in certain brackets, and other such easier to make useful items.
To make a connecting rod ie. one that will actually work. You will need much more that a chunk of 4340 or what ever. To start with if the material has inclusions in it you will be sunk in the begining. Also you will need to have grain structure id'ed. And like the one fellow said. The best and strongest is a forging. You will never make a product productivly to sell on a manual machine. I ran them years ago. And mind you all you have to do is one goof up and many hours of work and the material go into a scrap bin. Not saying it can't be done. It would be a chore on an old K&T Rotary head mill which I spent some time on in the old days.
These days a person doesn't even need to be a machinist, a computer will do it for ya. But you do need to know a bit about how to go about it.
As far as making such things as a connecting rod for racing or ? If you don't have a grasp on engineering principles and the properties of the various materials, and the dynamics involved, and all the correct test instrumentation. You would be better off making a tool or something else useful. Because a pretty con rod can be just that and nothing more.
Sorry to sound so negative, but it just isn't practical with a limited amount of machinery.

These days a person doesn't even need to be a machinist, a computer will do it for ya..



i resent that comment

Thanks for all the replies guys. I do intend to make many so called easier things such as Crank trigger setups, pully sets, valve covers(tig welded) adapters,oil pans, maybe a belt drive system for the camshaft, cam shaft sensor ( to fit inplace of the Dizzy, probably seen this type on a few ford products)flywheel to crank adapters for tranny conversions, Custom EFI intakes ( the mill making the fanges), turbo kits ( mill making the flanges).

A set of rods want be atempted until atleast a good solid CNC machine has been run for awail. Con rods are mostly made from forged blanks but some of your more pricy rods are made from billet bars and treated (heat treating & cyro). Grain strucure is a very good piont because you want the grain to follow the rod & the cap you want it to cross the cap to aid the cap from what is so called spliting ( go oval). This is the type rod you get into when you talk 2 & $3000.00 or even more for a rods. Making a AL Rod instead of steel is something that will be tried also but the steel rods I need to.

The procedure will be somthing important to get a acurate piece. I have not went down the road of figuring this out because I am not even close to even trying such a thing. But still it has been lightly talked about & I must say I am suprized at how close we are to what was meantioned to get a quality peice. Believe me this is not something I take lightly ( what it takes to achive this). If it does work out to where we cant pull it off then buying the forged blanks & machining them ourself is a other option.

All the replies are very good. It keeps me thinking and researching towards my goals. The group of people on this form is about as good as it gets from my research. There is more real world expeirance here than anyone can take in. I have spent the last two months reading every day many hours a day & some subjects I have read every thread from start to end & more than once. I find the more I learn when I go back and reread the more I learn and picking up & understanding things that didnt make sense the first time. The forum has already saved me from making a purchase that I would regreat very quickly without me bairly making any post. I have also takin CAD programs and made up quit a few parts to help get me ready for the real thing. Nothing that woud even be close to worthy of putting in a CAM program but still more than was known before. Now this is with the help of my son. Kinda like old school & new school together when we take on things like this, seems to work out well.

Thanks for all the replies & anymore please post them because it does help even if its not directly.

Jess

If you are going to be milling steel than I would sugest a real machine even if its an older one. Somthing like a BridgePort Boss5.0 or Boss8. Rigid with quick change tooling even.

We sold an old Boss5.0 a while back with t he quick change 200 spindle and tooling holders for $3000 machine ran fine Looked like crap because it been around longer than 20 years but still a very usefull machine just not able to compete with $100,000 plus machines.

Please keep in mind most all full size machines even old ones are 3phase so that means a converter for most to run at home unless you have already 3 phase, the cost of having the local electric copany to run 3phase would make you very sick.

on the con rod side if you have a good machine and a nice boring head there would be little need for honing. The more work that is not done by hand the closer the rod lenght could be held and weight.

All things considerd you would have to be in it for the love as the market is flooded with good rods by people that have the money to make them.

I would look for somthing that is not readly available to the public (niche) where competition is less at first.

not to discourage any one.

Whish you well, and hope this helps

My cost for 10,Kieth Black Alum Rods, 540 CID,Super Charged,Alcohol is $1600.00. We keep two sets of 10, change them as a set every year, let the set from the season before "rest"(molecules settle), have had the same 2 sets for 8 seasons, never a failure.We do dye check them. I would be hard pressed to buy any set of rods, from any one for this engine, except KB, due to the cost of patching windows in the block, line bore ( which has a limit the number or times that can be done ). Price a new KB Block and studs latley ?

I know people who have bought "economical rods " ( and cranks etc) just not worth tearing up $$$$$$$ to save a bit..The steps necessary to produce good high performance rods including forging, heat-treat, breaking at the cap etc are numerous and costley..much less theCNC machining. I include Diesel Engine rods in that catagory.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Verfur - 3 phase is a bit of a prob, but putting in a convertor should be fine. Or doing a motor change or maybe a VFD setup ( not sure on the VFD & its type setup) If I understand right the VFD can take 120v & run a 3 phase motor at speeds ( I may be wrong here). Either way there is a way to work with getting the old iron in my home shop.

The rod market is flooded & for most peoples needs rods can be had at a very good price that can hold the need. But the engine I am working with has no such thing going for it. I have even cross ref. ever rod out there to find a fit and unless we had a crank from someone there is nothing that will work. Which brings a other problem, for someone to supply a crank has been at the $3500.00 price. No one wants to forge a crank because they dont feel there is enough market for them ( but there wrong). Well I feel sure that it would be easier to make a set of rods than to cut out a crank from a billet stock ( probably cant without very pricy machine).

It surprizes me that you could even complete such a thing as a rod with no honing. I am not sure if I have seen a steel rod that was not honed




Adobe Machine - Yes I know just how much a KB cost. And I have been envolved with fixing some windows on some old iron elephants. I have not had the pleasure of runninig any KB stuff myself (or the need). But if your on your 8th season between two sets of rods then that tells me alot about your tuning abilities.

Trying to compete in todays rod market is not somethinig I am trying to do. Supply a community with a part that is unavalibale now that would work. I do know of atleast one person/group that is doing exactly what I am wanting to do, although they are not local to me nor do I know them good enough to draw off there expeirances.

Here is a nice example of a rod that was done this way & is in service now. Although I think they need to take them a few steps farther than they have. I dont think this rod has been heat treated,shot peened or cyro treated and is holding up quit well ( I could be wrong about what has been done but it is my understanding that they where not although it looks like they may have been shot peened).


Jess

I don't know about "tuning abilities", alcohol is just nice to these big motors, even at 50 + lbs of boost..Have you tried Hank The Crank ( HTC Enterprises) for a crank..They have always treated racers real good and have several options on any crank you would need.

Way back when, we experimeted with some 180 degree cranks,designed by us,built by HTC and they were quite resonable, even if they were completley off the wall, and a one "off design".

Where is NC Cams today? he knows all the current suppliers and the "good guys" still out there that you might want to talk to.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Con rods are something that are VERY well developed. To start anew would be hard to justify. Why? What you'd have to do to reinvent the wheel would hardly be worth the investment. When an engine easily costs the price of a small house, why would ANYONE want to experiment with a new, unproven design??? Heck, even finding a good con rod bolt ain't easy let alone finding one that doesn't have junk or improperly processed steel surrounding it won't be easy to figure out on your own.

At this point in time, there are any number of GOOD rod suppliers and even some great ones. Some of them include Carrillo, Crower, C&A, Lentz and/or Lunati (US made product) in steel. Venolia, BME, C&A, Keith Black and goodness knows who else for aluminum. I wouldn't used an imported rod in a race engine no matter who made it - unless it came from a F1 shop but the chances of that are slim and none.

At this point, if I were building an engine, I"d call one of my pro engine buiding contacts and see what the hot ticket is for a particular phase of the moon. Interestingly, one NASCAR truck team we work with literaly machines their own - it has gotten that sophisticted anymore.

For the "hobby" or "sportsman" racer, there are lot of nice imported product rod "knock offs" that should be more than adequate for most applications that are NOT on kill.

I have a set in a street HP motor that I built. Why? cheaper and easier to buy a set of Carillo knock offs from a friend who had LOTS of useage experience with new Chinese imports than it was to recondition a set of OEM used forgings with a "god knows what" useage history.

When it comes to racing con rods, buy the best USA mAde gems that you CAN'T afford. My personal favorites due to long standing friendships with the owners/managers of the companies would have me buying "Carrillo" steel rods or "BME" aluminum gems.

What is the application and could the crank /rod be modified to accept an oem size of rod take a look at murphysmotorservice.com Jeff makes rod's and rocker's for the antique tractor puller's and odd one off thing's. I have a boss3 BPT that is for sale with holder's PC ant a good lot of tooling PM me your emale and I can foward pic.s and info Good Luck Kevin

The use of a "common" crank pin is not unusual.

The most common crank pin size in NASCAR at one time was the 2" small block/small journal Chevy size. This evolved to the 2.1" "large journal" size when speeds and loads increased.

For a while, one particular engine builder went to "big block" rods and main sizes in his "small block" Chevy's. The reason, "...at least a big block was designed for 600hp..." His cranks were VERY durable albeit a bit heavy but they lived at high RPM.

Due to parts availability issues, and the evolution to small block engine developement, the availability of 2" or 2.1" inch crank pin rods pretty much standardized on small block Chevy based bearings and, quite often, 0.927" Chevy pins. All you had to do to get them to fit a Dodge or Ford block was to match the Chevy crank pin dia and width and , wah-lah, Chevy rods fit pretty much EVERYTHING. Less costly as a result.

As restrictor plate racing evolved into a BIG payday with million dollar purses for multi track wins, the builders started looking for smaller/lighter rotating assemblies to extract every last bit of power from the engines and, more importantly, to reduce parasitic losses due to friction.

Thus, they went first to 2.1" pins then 2" small journal pins they to some of the even smaller Indy car pins like those used in the Honda and/or IRL engines from Chevy or whomever else was making them. At this point, the crank pins are ungodly small at 1.9" or so and crank flex issues are now starting to rear an ugly head.

Yes, you can run "standard" journal sizes in just about any engine that they'll fit into. To prove the poiunt, pro stock Big blocks are at 2" crank pins or smaller for motors that run on "kill" all the time - whatever it takes to reduce weight and/or friction.

By using a true race bearing (which typically have more crush, better eccentricity and other features to carry load better at high speeds), you avoid the use of OEM bearing technologies that can become woefully inadequate at racing engine speeds and loads.

The nice part about using a proven rod is that all the development needed to make the part survive with an appropriate bearing has already been done. As some rod builders learned when they jumped into the market when the custom rod business really took off in the late 70's early 80's, the rod an bearing have to be cooridnated properly with each other or else wierd things happen

(Example: flexible big end rods want need something different in the way of bearing eccentricy than rods that are more robust).

By the way, NC Cams had a lot to do with development of High Performance bearings, pistons ( and now cams) in a former engineering job, pretty much the chief, cook and bottle washer, head engineer ,product development and tech advisor for a very well known manufacturer, so he does know what he is talking about, just to give you a referance. A lot of his engineering is still very viable today in NASCAR and Truck.. Drags and off road.Knows what he is talking about.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Hum, I dont why but I quit getting email Notices when a post was made. I will respond real quick here but go back and read the post I have missed & replay back.


First again thanks for they replys guys, its a big help.


Kevein Talor - As far as regrinding the crank to work with other off the shelf rods is it has a very wide Big End on the rod ( 1.2xxx). There is sevral Big Block Chevy type rods (7.100 L. 1.014 be. width .990 pin for the standard (chevy) crank jornal size ( somewhere around 2.2xxx, I would have to go back & read to know for sure). The jurnal size is close enough to my app that I could turn .013 under on the crank & run a .020 bearing and be OK. But the side clearance would be way to much ( over .100 side clearance) . The only way I could get around this would be to weld the crank up & return it to fit. I am not much on this idea because I am already pushing limits of what the crank can take.


Adobe Machine - Thanks for the heads up with HTC. I remember this companies name but have never bought from them. If they could produce me a crank that was afordable then it would end the need for a custom rod all together & also would help our engines a great deal.

I know you cant price there work. But could you give me some idea on what this might cost ( PM or Email me if you want ) ( Jess1313@charter.net) . Just any idea that might help to guess what this would cost. What about contact info. I did a search & I dont believe I found any way to contact them just suppiers of there products.


NC Cams - I will have to go back and read over your post to be able to reply very good. I will do this and get back but thanks for your input.

Part of the problem for this app is it is not for all out racing, more of a duel purpose thing street/strip for the biggest part of the people that would run this engine. Most people pushing no more than 400 to 600hp & even a good import rod would hold for this. There is the few of use that will be pushing more ( maybe 1000hp). The stock rod as held 700hp with new bolts & shot pinging but Cyro treatment has not been added yet & would help even farther. $1250.00 for a set of rods ( very good rods) is the best price I have come up with for customs. This is just out of reach for most of the guys running these engines. For myself its no big deal because I have played this game many times & know what a cheap part can do to months of work & prep. A other problem is there is more things becoming available and the average persons HP will be growing & the need for better rods will grow.

If I could afford to call a rod maker & get them to forge a set and buy them in big lots I would but this is out of reach for me & is what would be need to get the price down.

A new crankshaft at a affordable price would be the anwser that I need. If this could be done for not much more than the average Eagle,Scat, Cat cranks that are around it would be a very good option. Most of these cranks are around $6 to $700.00 & if the price could be within 2 to $400.00 of this it would be possible to sale these. Any more than this is going to be out of reach for most (except the few of us) because they are just not trying to achive no extreem levels of power. They just want more & in a durable way that is affordable.



I will replay back in the next few hours also.


Jess

Speed costs money - how fast do you want to go and how long do you want to do it????

Crankshafts: The best crank work I've evey seen in my life comes from Sonny Bryant. Worth EVERY PENNY considering that they already come balanced, sized and properly counterweighted when you tell them EXACTLY what you're trying to do. The last crank I got from them was perfectly sized to the 0.0001" on EVERY journal.

Another crank source doing a lot of work in NASCAR anymore is Winberg. I've never used any of their stuff but I know of several NASCAR teams (top 5 in 2006 points) who use their stuff religiously. Velasco made good cranks at one time but I lost track of that operation. Moldex (in Detroit/Dearborn) still does good crank work and his prices are quite reasonable all things considered.

The Eagle hi perf cranks are equal to and perhaps superior to the "old" hi perf Chevy stuff which, in its day, was suitable for drag and oval track racing. HOwever, since the Chevy stuff went from 5160 to 1053 steel, I"d be more inclined to go with the Cro-Moly import as it SHOULD have superior fatigue life over the carbon steel OEM stuff anymore... The import machining quality is decent for the price but not as good as what you want/need for hard core racing IMO.

Even so, many of the budget cranks are imported and are a good bargain for the sportsman racer on a budget. They probably will survive in a sportsman oval track car just fine or in a boat or quite a while in a bracket car.

Since you're gonna be competing with high buck stuff in late model racing and/or Comp or other high end classes, i'd consider these "budget" parts to be marginal for hard core race use. Buy the best that you can't afford and you'll be better off....

I bought an Eagle crank and some Eagle "carrillo copy rods" for my street big block. By the time you screwed with all the cryo and stress relieve, shot peening and then reconditioning and beam polishing and bolt replacment, it is easier and cheaper to buy a premium aftermarket rod. Besides, even after all that work on a stock rod - you still are in a situation where all you did was put lipstick on a pig.

In 1970, a set of Carrillo's cost $500 per set and 100 octane gas was something like $0.50 per gallon. Today, a set of Carrillo's is $1100 or so and race gas is pushing $7-$8/gallon. Do the math, the Carrillo's are a better value and will quite often outlast your interest in the hobby/sport/business. SOme Eagles are $500 or so a set which is LESS than some HP Chevy OEM rods.

If you live in the Southeast, you can even buy used NASCAR rods at a fraction of the new cost from various parts liquidators. Sometimes the stuff is on the wierd side for length and width and bore size but a great value for the low buck racer.

Early on in my career while developing race parts for a noted race parts supplier, I helped some guys by letting them use "test parts". Their engine was a 427" big block Chevy fitted with a Moldex crank, 3/8" Carilllo "lite weight" marine rods and the other usual hot rod parts (roller cam, aluminum L-88 heads, tunnel ram, etc).

They ran 9.90 class when they had the money to feed the thing valve springs for the roller cam. The short block was definitely "high buck" - the rest of the car a combination of "cheap parts", pound and grind fab work and decent used transmissions and rear ends. At the time, the engine was spinning roughly 7900 rpm

We were testing some HOT flat tappet race cams that put out 0.650 or so lift. We were also developing some NASCAR based springs to support the cams. To test, we gave them a couple sets of springs and cams and lifters and told them to run them until they smoked them.

They ran 10:30's all day long, week after week for at least 2-3 seasons. With the flat tappet stuff (which did get into the company's catalog that ANYBODY could buy), they made more money with essentially NASCAR cams and parts in their bracket drag car than they ever made with their high buck rollers.

The short block simply ran and ran with what many guys thought were "wrong" Carrillo con rods and wrong everything else - wrong according to the local "experts" who blew up more crap than anybody should be allowed to but these guys simply showed up, checked the lash and ran the damn thing.

If you spend GOOD money on cranks rods and pistons, these highly stressed parts will serve you better and longer than "cheap/budget" parts. By cheap, and eventually you'll pay and pay DEARLY.

When it comes to cams, we're able to run light titanium valve small block fitted engines at/above 9300 for 300+ miles with lifts at or above 0.815" in Craftsman truck applications. It takes a bit of work and some high dollar Jessel rollers and tool steel cams and high $$$ custom made NASCAR valve springs but it is quite doable. The stuff is quite expensive but what would you pay to run 9300 all day long and NOT break???

When you know the right sources of parts and know the right parts to buy, these sort of speeds and valve lifts are definitely possible and doable....

Regarding low cost race parts:

Over the past 10-15 years or so, the racer has seen a HUGE influx of parts suppliers. Whereas the billet crank and rod business was at one time a very exclusive market where only a few suppliers held sway, now there are a veritable plethora of suppliers.

THis is both good and bad. Good because the competition provides for competitive pricing and accelerated development of "better" parts - bad because there are some new guys out there who are merely copying someone else's work without copying the learning curve.

The days of finding GOOD parts $200-$400 per set cheaper may be gone forever. A main reason is world demand for steel as well as the cost of energy. Take chrome moly steel as an example.

Relatively garden grade 4150 crome moly (crank and billet cam and even billet rod material) has essentially doubled in price over the past 12-15 months. It is up nearly triple of what it was about 2 years ago.

To properly heat treat it will involve multiple heat cycles, preferrably in a special atmosphere. The result is that it costs more to heat treat a set of rods than to simply "recondition" them.

At one time and still, 8620 steel is a material of choice when it comes to making roller race cams. Our experience of late is that the material is barely adeqate anymore. We've had them spall (chunk) within as little as 250 miles of racing service. Hence, you're forced to use CERTIFIED 8620 AQBQ (aircraft quality, bearing quality) steel and that stuff is DOUBLE or more the price of garden variety 8620.

If you REALLY want a good straight durable cam, you talk tool steel. However, with tool steel, you can be talking nearly $300 for just the raw steel billet, no machining nor heat treatment, just a piece of steel. When you finish machining and heat treating and grinding (no small tasks in themselves - ask anyone who machines tool steel), you're talking high buck stuff.

Hardly affordable for the sportsman racer but pretty much MANDATORY for the pro's. At their level, even the best is hardly adequate.

I realize that racing is expensive. I also realize that this high buck stuff is rapidly putting it out of the reach of the common guy. Sadly, racers will spend themselves silly. Having first tried to make a living racing, I learned that the cash flow was essentially in the wrong direction if I raced for a living. That's why I got involved on the supply side - at least the cash flow is in the right direction.

The economics of the business is also why I don't do "sporttsman" type products. Most can ill afford to race and want/need/hope to find suppliers who will "sponsor" their aflicition. It is our policy to help but we "help" by providing the same service and quality of work and level of technology to a sportsman that we'd offer to a NASCAR/NHRA touring pro.

However, speed costs money and this is a business. With nearly a quarter of a million invested in equipment, I can hardly afford to "give away" my services or cut prices so someone who's satisfying their ego racing can race on the cheap at my expense.

The guys who provide budget/imported parts are doing everyone a service. If those prices are still too expensive for your budget/taste, you probably need to find a different hobby.

R/C cars at one time were inexepensive alteratives to real race car parts. Sadly, the megalomaniacs who used to race big cars found the little ones and spent everyone into the poor house there as well. Adreniline, testosterone and ego's do seem to cause racers to do/expect irrational things when it comes to creating and sticking to "budgets" when they get really into hard core racing.

I would say that one thing most drivers/racers overlook in there quest for speed is " To win the race you have to finish it first" for anthor words still be running at the end of the race. I used to race with a fellow (I machined and built the engines as well as tuned the car" He Drove it" ) that was always talking about what so and so was runnig and how he wished we had the money to run the same junk. My response was so and so was fast but always broke before they finished.

So what I am saying is quality matters.

quality = money = time................ its all in the numbers.

verfur

I would think with something like a con-rod, why try to retrofit something or buy a cheap hobby machine and get set up from the ground up to do this? I wouold think doing the design work and jobbing out the manufacturing to someone with the right machine would be more effective both in quality and time to market, if your really trying to hit the market with something new......

When you consider what it costs to set up to machine the first billet rod, drill the first hole, heat treat the first part, and/or buy the first set of rod bolts and/or pin bushing, you categorically can NOT afford to compete with an outfit that is already in the business of making a rod.

Lots of people see how much the rod costs and THINK they can figure out how much is being made on each set and then get the mistaken idea that the vendors are getting rich making the parts. That is hardly the case.

Yes, they can make a lot of rods with their CNC machining centers. When you consider, however, how much the CNC costs to buy, tool and run, they are definitely NOT getting rich off of them. Especially when you consider the development costs and/or the cost of one lost batch of rods that the heat treat guy quenched or tempered improperly.

God bless the heat treaters as, without them, we'd not have steel the is heat treated for hardness or toughness or whatever. HOwever, when they screw something up and offer to do a "free heat treatment" of nearly $12K worth of machined and ground steel that they screwed up due to bad carb and harden (going thru just that escapade now), somebody has to pay and that comes out of the so-called "big profit" that we make on the parts we made.

Racers are always looking for deals, free parts and "help". Sadly, from a business standpoint, they will NOT brag about the good work you do for them (racer secret after all). But they will surely biitch about something that they think is/was wrong even if and especially whent they screwed it up.

Dealing with high strung people is simply part of the process in doing race parts business. However, "sponsoring" a race car is something that is often not well appreciated. And, more often than not, is not going to gain you a lot of new race business - this is especially true if your client has problems that are NOT your fault. You, unfortunately, get painted with their brush with disaster....

By the way and interestingly, racer problems are NEVER the fault of the racer. For the life of me, I can't understand why/how it works out that way????

Well said NC.......the devil of development (or anything else for that matter) is in the details often invisible to the consumer.