like your job , enjoy the guys you work with ,you may want to concider the alternative when being asked to become shift supervisor because there ain t no turning back from there ,

i have enjoyed this job for a few years , interesting work and heavy volume , balls to the wall ,just what i like to speed up the day ,keeps the fat off and the blood flowing ,and NOBODY ever questioned my work or dedication ,i take pride in my work on the worst of days especially because it s a reflection on me
a while back i took on the shift supervisor roll ,now i'm responsible for other peoples work , come to realize how needy other people can be ,not so easy,doublely so because i still try to accomplish what i used to in a day , no problem these things take time ,they need my support,
brought in a guy i worked breafly with a fair number of years ago at a crappy company ,lets say his name is LEE he was still there and unhappy , i pumped this guy up to the company as i did with the rest of my guys ,but more so with this guy , to my surprise a couple months back another guy that i worked with from another company came to work with us ,let say his name is SEAN not too bright at all but will do what he's expected to do (green means go) ,
thought everything was great till this week ,boss tells me theres complaints and i should try to smooth things over on the floor before things get out of hand , sure ! i have a brief talk with everyone , they all say everthing is cool no prob nothing to worry about ,exept Sean he had alot of BS to say for only being there a few weeks ,he said the company is so desparate for guys they could tell me to f#@7 off to my face and the company won t do anything about it (trouble guy found) , i said youve got another thought coming

Lee said nothing to worry about till i ask Lee to empty his over flowing chip barrel he just looks at me and shrugged his shoulders ,rather than this guy picking himself off the floor i decided to walk away ,things have gone too far ,
now LEE????
next day floor meeting i lay down the policies their roll in the company as professionals and my roll as their supervisor and i made a point about emptying chip bins a few times (get the point buddy), now the two are pissed ,
i didnt help Lee for two days on two separate simple setups i watched fall on his face for 8 hrs each day , i carryed him too far , i dropped him ,in the past i helped and coached him along ,
, i told the boss about being told that we're desparate and these guys think they can get away with murder
his solution put them on the other shift ,to save me the greif ,and we don t want to loose anyone fight now THATS IT !!!!

INTEGRITY is what is lacking in my opinion , there is no integrity in those two back stabbing weasles or in the company itself

personally , thats the one thing noone can take away from me,
like me or not i say it like it is

these guys have no idea how many times i went to bat for them when they took to long to setup something simple or blew up tools ,why ?????
in there eyes today was the look they beat me ,at what ever that may be
but they are too stupid to understand the reputation they are building for themselves all eyes are on them now in the company and i have friends in other companies who may or will one day ask about these guys ,
who won now !!
oh well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
may be a good time to take a few week holiday and start a newyear ,elsewhere , gettin tired of that drive anyhow


just a lil rant

I've been some sort of supervisor/boss since I was 18. You're always going to have idiots, and the worst part is that once you get rid of one, someone steps right up to take their place.

I sure hope your boss always sides with you, or at least sides with you in front of the employees, and chews you out in his office, otherwise doing your job can be very difficult.

I'm lucky, the owner lets me hire and fire as I see fit, and doesn't stick his nose into the shop, and when someone has to go, they're gone, its not always fired. I've found you can get most people that have slipped over the edge into "useless troublemaking employee" to leave on their own free will, just ride 'em, every little thing, cut their hours down, swap their hours, change shifts, giving them crappy crappy jobs, keeping track of their productivity, and setting hourly benchmarks for what has to be done. Either they get the hint and shape up or they just don't show up one day.

I wouldn't call it harassment, I would call it making sure they are doing their job, after all thats what they get paid for right?

One of my latest tales of woe was "phone boy" aka "Mr. Text Message". Started out great and just went to hell, couldn't stay off the damn phone. So new rule #1, the phone stays in your car. Day #2 of new rule #1 and he never showed back up, easy, no unemployment, no paperwork, done.

Having responsibility with no power is a no win situation. If you're going to be responsible for the parties, you have to have AUTHORITY over them. Otherwise, let your boss take over baby sitting of them.

The first place I'd start talking is with managment above you. Explain what's going on (if they don't know or see) and lay out your plan for re-gaining control. Perhaps the owner has to indicate to the workers that "you are his man" and he'll back you up.

If you don't hand out the paychecks, start doing so - the fact that the money comes from the company to the troublemakers THRU YOU needs to be demonstrated. If you control the flow of money to them, you can make it stop just as easy as to facilitate its continued flow.

You may have to start documenting the issues. Point out that there are consequences for not doing them. But most of all, you have to be FAIR. You can't pick on one guy and let the other guy slide.

There's more but what you're dealing with is classic employee relations issues that stem from a lack of discipline (not necessarily on your part). Yes, getting people may be a hard thing to do. BUT, you don't want to let a cancer start to fester as a result of some riff raff drifter taking over. Get control and keep it.

You don't let your kids run wild nor do you let a pet run amock in the house (not if you're smart anyway). Then why would you let someone that YOU ARE PAYING TO DO WHAT YOU TELL THEM RUN RAMPANT OVER YOU???

Guy doesn't clean up? Finish up the shift but he now misses the first half of tomorrow's shift with no pay(BTW, be sure he comes in on time at 1/2 shift starting time).

Doesn't clean up second time? Finish up today, miss a whole shift tomorrow. Again be here on time following day.

THird time? the pain escallates.

Go a month without a problem, slate is clean.

Issue the "rules" to ALL in writing. They sign "I've read and understand results" statement. All legal type documents.

My former fiance was a school teacher in inner city school. Kids would behave or misbehave - your choice, not the kids. The kids had to learn (and quickly) that there were dire conseqences if they didn't follow the rules.

Sitting quietly in front of blank computer screen while other kids did computer learning games in her class did wonders. Even the worst kids behaved in her class. Gee, I wonder why????

Rules, prompt consequences for non compliance, reward for compliance. Simple stuff that dogs and kids learn quickly - I wonder why adults can't be taught as readily????

EDIT: Saw a cartoon once that had this guy shouting out "I'm surrounded by idiots". The next panel has a fellow worker asking the question, "If you've allowed yourself to become surrounded by idiots, how smart does that make you????"

An idiot should not be that difficult to outsmart.

Finally, I learned via management of my own small shop that people serve up what you expect of/from them. Expect a doofus, get one. Express a demand for high performance with praise and $$$ reward or other "rewards" for exemlary performance and some neat things start to happen. The difficult becomes easy and the impossible doable if you challenge and reward employees.

However, sometimes you simply have to realize that there are right and wrong people for particular jobs. It is managments chore to figure these "job fits" out. Sometimes, some people fit better elsewheres.

END EDIT

I've been making aerospace widgets for 20 years, 16 years as a supervisior of one sort or another. Without a doubt, the hardest part of the job is dealing with people. You like the challenge and the rewards of the job, and this is a result of your experiences and the good people who helped you in the trade; but the people you work with are a whole different set of experiences. A good part of the supervisor job is figuring out how to get good work out of people who are not like you.

There's no easy way to cope with the idiots. I can recommend you document the problems and finally get rid of the bad ones. I also highly recommend lots of deep breathing and to leave work at work. Hard to do, I know.

I have also found a good single malt scotch after work is the best medicine.

Good luck

Did someone say Widgit? :)

Yes, getting people may be a hard thing to do. BUT, you don't want to let a cancer start to fester as a result of some riff raff drifter taking over. Get control and keep it.


END EDIT


Very well said, its hard to get the upper ups to understand that a lot of times NObody is better than SOMEbody.

I can't count the times that 2 good people can get more done than 3 good people and one screw up.

Management expects supervision to solve problems. Biitching does NOTHING but cause problems in management's eyes.

In this case, you as a supevisor need to pull a "we have a problem, here's what it is (document issues here, no harping, just facts) and here is how I would address the issue. How do you want me to address the problem?"

They (management) needs to know it is THEIR problem as much as YOURS but that YOU have a solution and need their support to implement said solution.

there are some good suggestions here thanks

documentation is something i had started a couple of days ago , ive tryed to be fair but firm , i think my downfall was getting too chummy !
i like to enjoy my day , always up for a laugh ,it breaks the stresses of the job , i was told there was a fine line , now i ve found it ,
what was the kicker for me was the way i covered for them when they needed it , pumped every last one of these guys to management , trying to assure managements goals will be met (product),i thought things were good , and with most of the guys it is ,
the problem i have is choking on my pride and work as a professional ,rather than rolling their boxes out to the parking dumpster

i will see to it they quit , they really don t realize the position they put themselves in ,
when i don t like someone they know it !! as they will soon see
the way i see it the company is backing me half way ,but if it was them or me , they would be out of there in a flash
they are too concerned with numbers , they tell me as new people come in ,others will go , and to hang tight ,
BS i say make an example out of them ,
this week will be the be all or end all because i've got a lot to say to the management if they want me to continue working there

Good for you

Steve

an easy way to kill a snake ,
gram em by the tail and crack em like a whip

A couple more suggestions:

Ultimatums don't work UNLESS YOU"RE WILLING TO BACK THEM UP WITH ACTION.

and

If you want to be heard, WHISPER.

Bring the staff in and explain that there will be a new set of procedures that you expect to be followed. Briefly outline the ramifications of a failure to comply with EVERYONE.

Then bring in the problem childred for one on ones - have someone from personnel there to document the procedings. Explain that you know what's been going on and it is now going to stop - BECAUSE you've been told/given authority to MAKE IT STOP.

Explain the punishments in detail and at what point their game is over. Point out that THEY not you, control their long term fate with the company. Speak quietly and professionally. DON"T GET EMOTIONAL OR USE SLANG OR CUSS WORDS - be 100,000% professional. They can ask questions AFTER you're presentation, not during or before. YOU ARE THE BOSS - YOU CONTROL THE MEETING AND PRESENTATION.

Once the meeting is over, so is your "friendship" relationship with the workers, at least during shop hours. You'll be smart NOT to have a beer with them unless it is at a company outing ane even then, you're still going to have to act professional.

You'll be amazed at what a formalization of your relationship will do to the interpersonal actions/reactions. Again, be fair, professional and reasonable. You'll be labeled as a hard ass/s.o.b. but you're the one who's overly tolerated idiotic behaviour of "friends" (???) taking advantage of your good nature. Sadly, those days have to end.

Besides, why should you be inconvenienced and have to look elsewheres' for a job when THEY are the trouble makers??? Who's the boss, them or you???

Yes, you can make an example of them BUT when you do, you want to influence the folks who stay as well - sort of advanced intimindation so that some other hot shot don't get the idea that raising caine can be benficial. The good folks will sympathize with you if you pull this off well and professionally, maybe even give you a "thanks,they deserved it" comment or two. Good workers don't like it when trouble makers start stirring the pot.

Check out some "management and labor relations books" from the library. What you're going thru/dealing with has been documented and dealt with before by seasoned pros. DON"T TRY TO REINVENT THE WHEEL. There are proven ways to fix your problem and WIN in the process of doing so.

Besides, when you pull it off with style, nobody, not even management will fork with you in the future. That's what you really want, no????

thanks for the good suggestions NC CAMS i will carry them with me this week,
you asked who's the boss them or me , this will be claified this week when i talk to management ,
problem is this company has one of if not the worst reputations as a revolving door ,why ?? because at one time there was no forgivens , they had no problem firing someones butt out the door in an instant , i know lots of guys around here that have been thru there at one point or other,
over the past couple years they've had a management change , the door doesn t revolve so much because of the bad reputation ,no ones coming inside ,they had to change , and thru learning from the past mistakes are trying to revamp the company image , they have gone soft out of fear in my opinion,
anyone in the area could take 3 guesses as to where i'm talking about and one of them if not the first would be the company i'm at ,it was that bad before i started

the whole thing for me is INTEGRITY , ive got a worried company above me and gutless weasles below me
ive been offered from another place a few bucks/hr more to walk and put that crap behind me , go in and do my job as before
which opens up a whole other other can of worms that will fall on the bosses desk ,somethings are going to change or they loose me ,i need this crap like i need a hole in my head

Sometimes, people end up in certain positions for the purpose that they are there to make a difference.

Maybe it is your time to bring some sanity and balance to your current source of employment. So the place HAS/HAD a revolving door reputation - that doesn't mean that it has to keep the rep. If management is truly interested in fixing things, maybe they'll support the incorporation of discipline onto the shop floor.

Eventually, the shop can run out of fresh meat to run thru the wringer, especially if it is a small town with limited work pool. Like I said, the problems you're encountering are basic management and labor relation issues. They've been encountered, ignored, fixed, patched and/or eliminated before. Sometimes with logic, discipline and fairness whereas other times, with the "my way or highway" approach.

Amazingly, heave ho shops always tend to be in a constant state of stress/strife/turmoil. Well disciplined shops tend to always be clean, profitable and functional with happy workers who work well together.

Some people thrive in either environment. Like I said earlier, "right guy, right job". If you were hired to make a difference and can, do so. If management is not willing to support you so as to solve the problems, let them power the revolving door - if that ain't your style, find a place that is and move on along.

You know, leopards can't and won't change their spots, no matter how hard they may want to try. Until your owners/upper management have their epiphanal moment, things ain't gonna change - perhaps this is the time to have (create actually) a "moment" and make a change for the better. YOu just might make a place that people will WANT to work at as a career rather than reside at "inbetween real jobs"...

DAMN!!! After reading this thread it makes me grateful for where I work! I supervise a cell of 16 employees and 8 machines, with rarely ever a problem. It sure helps when the management is behind you and the employees have a little integrity. Good luck!

Business is a working model of conflict.......

We are asked to take these people solving seminars at work, you know, conflict resolution, personality apptitude tests ect... here is what I have found to be true about the different types of "thinkers"

Analytical thinker type people wont get along with p-type social people (aka the "people person").
Creative people dont necessarily get along with Technical people,
add different skill sets/ temperments/religions/gender and you have a melting pot of egos...conflict.

Best thing to do is to let everyone be aware of the different ways other people think. and follow it up with this...
There are two types of communicators....
The ones that lay the cards out in front of you, tells you face to face what they think,(right or wrong) and the other type, the ones that stab you in the back and gossip because they are too much of a coward to do it face to face. Explain this to your employees, and remind them every now and then that there are two types of communicators, and which one are you???

Let them police themseleves, usually when someone starts to complain and gossip to other employees, the others employees are quik to point out they are back stabbing and need to go do it face to face with the person they have the problem with.....
You also need to let them know there will be ZERO reprocussion for coming to tell you what they really think...(within reason ofcourse)Threats and intimidation should not be tolerated. ( nor thft and vandalism)

I do agree with NC cams, you should fire fast and hire slow...don't let the cancer spread if the person causing the ripples cant be dealt with fairly.
Your most important role as supervisor is to build teams, and keep them happy any way you can. If a person is not happy, it's your job to find out why and fix it, or move them to another spot, or show them the door.
Consider the P.I.T.A. factor.(Pain In The Ass)
If the trublesome employee's value/skills/ outway the PITA factor keep them, find a way to keep them happy,if not, fire them humanily right away.
my 2cents
good luck

ive talked with my immediate supervisor , told him the upper management has to have a meeting with the department and lay down the company policies ,
it needs to be understood that the supervisors are there to enforce the policies not create them as our mood that day desires , and to show that the company respects and backs the decisions of the supervisors ,
what i got is we will have a meeting when things cool down ,
i say bull , do it now while its fresh in their minds,

i do have to say with those two idiots off my shift ,i tend to get bothered less , and the guys that took their place are enthusiastic and as pleasant to work with as the rest of the guys on my shift ,so i suppose there is an upside

The best supervisory/management course I ever took was Union Steward training. That might sound weird seeing as unions have the reputation of being anti-management but, believe me, for the most part that is baloney.

The biggest mistake management makes is one of arrogance and hubris. Someone does something or says something that rubs a supervisor the wrong way and POOF, they're fired. Well, thats a sure way to create a (winning) wrongful dismissal suite!

#1 Punishment must fit the crime

#2 Rules and Punishment must apply equally to all. If you let Sam do X wrong one week and then fire Greg for exactly the same thing, Greg is going to sue and win. Either everyone works by the same rules or there are no rules at all.

#3 Punishment must be progressive. First offence: minor consequence. Second offence: Medium consequence. Third offense: major consequence. These offenses must be related (i.e. being late or not showing up without a phonecall). If a person is late one week and breaks a workpiece the next, the two are not related in the eyes of labour law. Of course, some actions may merit immediate dismissal (removing someone else's lockout while that person is working on something). Time is also important - if someone misses a day of work without calling in and gets suspended for it then does the same thing two years later, no arbitrator is going to let you use the old incident as justification - its just too old.

#4 Everything MUST be documented. It doesn't matter how bad someone is, if you appear before an arbitrator or judge with only verbal evidence to give, you're more than likely going to lose. (Besides, it drives the point home when you pull out someone's discipline file and lay it before you on the desk).

What the union course taught me is that unions are not about protecting crappy workers. They are about making sure all workers get a fair shake. If the managers are too stupid or too high on themselves to follow a progressive discipline system then they end up losing arbitrations and litigation due to their own stupidity. Of course, on the news it'll be put forth as "the union is too powerfull" - which is mostly bunk.

I got out of supervising. Not because of idiotic employees (though I had my share) but because of idiotic management. I'd do my job, see a problem and work with the employee to fix it. See it again and pull the employee aside for a chat - which I TELL them I am recording in their file. See it once more and take the employee and their file to management. Guess what happens? Bupkiss OR a tirade and a firing (which they then lose in arbitration). You fired Johnny for this but let Fred slide - which means you told Johnny it was OK to do this then fired him for it - YOU LOSE.

And every time the manager complained the union was too powerful...

Oh and a note about #3. SOmetimes you have a problem employee that doesn't repeat a specific transgression but manages to get in minor/semi-serious trouble over and over again. There is an established rule called "Culminating Incident" where a series of minor transgressions can be cause for dismissal. Basically, the employee shows they are just too much trouble. Documentation is vital in a CU dismissal as you have to show the employee is simply not suitable.

Document, document, document - its vital.

Oh and about friendships. As a supervisor you can be friendly with the workers but you cannot be their friend. Making friends with the people you supervise will make them think they can skirt the rules and then you're in the position of laying the smack down on a buddy. Not a good scene for either party.

this is kinda funny. We have a similar problem at work, there are at least 2 guys who are never around and do just enough work to keep from getting fired. That's easy with programming computers, it's really hard to tell if someone is having a serious technical problem or if they are just goofing off.

My boss asked me to keep track of how much one of the slackers was working, and I told him I couldn't be responsible for that. I did supervise one of the other guys that did that, and he got a lot of work done. I'd sit down with him every day for 10 minutes and ask him to show me what he was doing and ask him what his approach to his problems were. Very low key, but I was the only guy that ever got any work out of this guy over a 5 year period.

What NC Cams says is correct though, no authority, no deal. That's the problem I've always had in my supervisory positions, nobody called them that.

It is very simple:

Bad employees are tolerated by bad and/or ineffective management who can't/won't control the actions of said bad employees.

This is probably the same bad managers who are having trouble making ends meet in paying bills/getting jobs/making a profit. Should it be a surprise that they can't manage their employees.

I"m not saying that the Member is the culprit - the people who run the business, who tolerate the madness are in need of MLR101 (Management & Labor Relations 101, entry level college course on "guess what?").

The problems the Member cites are TEXTBOOK examples of bad management. Rhodan's remedies are essentially TEXTBOOK solutions that work. I've used a number of them (and they work) in my own business.

To use a phrase that I hate (but it fits), "...this isn't rocket science...". The successful management of people which necessitates the ability of understanding what motivates and/or rewards them. If you think it is money, you're WRONG.

well i learned a lot about being in a management position over the past few weeks , the most valuable one is not to be too chummy , there has to be that line ,there has been a good number of suggestions posted here and i will try to work a lot of them into my routine , the management has made me aware that the observations that they made this week were good ,my shift is running quite well with the trouble guys out and on the other shift ,no-one is angry looking ,they had to see for themselves who the problem is ,them or me
they plan to lay down the guidelines (we'll see)

,i'm going to carry on the best way i know how and always remember who had better not ever use me as a referance when they are gone , though i'm still a bit haywire , in the worst of times ive been one not to burn my bridges (i try ) and it shows when i'm out looking for work , some guys like that will have to find out on their own

all the suggestions posted are much appreciated , i knew when i posted this i would get some good wisdom from guys who have experience in dealing with staff ,and i did
thanks

Oh yeah, I just remembered this:

There is a highly paid management consultant who teaches companies how to avoid or decertify a union. The first thing he tells the company is

"If you have a union, you deserved it and you got the union you deserved".

Basically, he says that people don't generally organize for no reason. The company must be doing something to make the workers unhappy. Exactly how unhappy you make them dictates how troublesome that union will be.

The union where I work has a national reputation as being troublesome. Our local hasn't been on strike since the 1980s because our management has been pretty good to us. Sure, there is the odd manager that could use an attitude adjustment, but those seem to move on after a little while as they just don't fit the outfit at all. We've had firings, usually only with pretty good cause (its never petty) though all but one was contested in arbitration where the employer lost. Not because the employee didn't deserve firing but because management seems totally incapable of following the progressive discipline procedures.

Basically, he says that people don't generally organize for no reason. The company must be doing something to make the workers unhappy. Exactly how unhappy you make them dictates how troublesome that union will be.


That applies to problem employees as well.While there are guys out there who just can't hack it in the trade.In my experience it's management,or lack thereof which creates problem employees.
There are more than a few employers out there who like to play politics in the workplace.Giving special treatment to whoever can kiss ass the best,instead of treating employees fairly.These kind of powertrip head games will make problems where there are none.

You Have recieved some very good info. But the kind of guys you are talking about are playing the system and seeing how far they can push the boundries. It is too bad that we can't just try a little electro-shock therapy or just a minor frontal labotomy on employees like these it would make the world so much nicer.

It is too bad that we can't just try a little electro-shock therapy or just a minor frontal labotomy on employees like these it would make the world so much nicer.

sometimes i think a good upper cut :boxing: would do , but i'm no longer in a position to do that without being a liability

Being too friendly with people is something I've had trouble with a lot. When I was in the Air Force, I found out that being friendly with people that held lower rank was generally ok, but there were always a couple of guys that couldn't behave. Sad really.

We have a very interesting situation at work. Our boss is somewhat of a tyrant, so people pretty much ignore him. With a batch of creative people doing research, being a tyrant is totally counter-productive. Treating highly skilled technical people like someone that's barely qualified to use a shovel will only get you some very creative ways of avoiding work.