:rainfro: Well I thought I would start my photo log anyways.. still waiting on the kit, but keeping busy in the meantime.. got everything ready.. :)

sorry for the camera phone pics, nikon is fixing my d70 at the moment..

http://www.vi01.com/cncbuild/1.jpg

all the nuts and bolts in the box from boltdepot.com, some stuff from home depot, threaded rods, couplers and such from Enco, the love joys are neat little guys, interested to see how they work out..

Also some pics of the rest of my shop, it's a bit messy, but I haven't had the time to work in it lately so I don't really care. Can't wait to move it into a commercial place pretty soon.

http://www.vi01.com/cncbuild/2.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cncbuild/3.jpg

My delta lathe, my pride and joy, the thing is in mint shape, got it for like $100, it's almost 60 years old and still runs perfectly with 0 upgrades or mods to help it.

http://www.vi01.com/cncbuild/4.jpg

My delta hybrid, an upgrade, it's a tank, about 500 pounds, no storm door, it was a PITA to get in my basement!

http://www.vi01.com/cncbuild/5.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cncbuild/6.jpg

Some cherry and african mahog., maple etc.

More pics to come, just thought I would share since I don't have anything else to show pics of :)

Your first pic looks very familiar ;)

:) although yours are crystal clear.. my treo photos are no good, can't wait to get my d70 back.. sorta holdin still until the parts arrive, although I have a feeling I'm going to pull an all nighter and get everything assembled in a day or two :)

Nice set up and I like the lathe!:)

Looking forward to your kit arrival so I can watch your progress, will keep and eye open.

bp092,

Just stopped by to see if you've done any prep work prior to your kits arrival.
Any word on a delievery date yet?

Looks like next weekend will be open to get back to my project.

David's moving right along and his work is looking fantastic!

Oh, congradulations... Mr moderator, keep us in line ;) Thanks!
Forums always need good people to make them a great place for all of us!

bp092,

Just stopped by to see if you've done any prep work prior to your kits arrival.
Any word on a delievery date yet?

Looks like next weekend will be open to get back to my project.

David's moving right along and his work is looking fantastic!

Oh, congradulations... Mr moderator, keep us in line ;) Thanks!
Forums always need good people to make them a great place for all of us!

All the linear slides are already done, all the parts are prepped ready, not going to tackle the controller until the kit arrives, once it arrives I will order my xylotex ready kit, a decent desktop and lcd display. Other than that I'm just anxiously waiting. Joe said it might be ready by end of next week or so, so soon enough, maybe just in time for christmas? :rainfro: Yes I'm Mr. Moderator now, figured I'm here enough, might as well do something good with the time. :) I'm looking forward to seeing your build as well, but I understand the difficulty with spending precious time with family.

All the linear slides are already done, all the parts are prepped ready, not going to tackle the controller until the kit arrives, once it arrives I will order my xylotex ready kit, a decent desktop and lcd display. Other than that I'm just anxiously waiting. Joe said it might be ready by end of next week or so, so soon enough, maybe just in time for christmas? :rainfro: Yes I'm Mr. Moderator now, figured I'm here enough, might as well do something good with the time. :) I'm looking forward to seeing your build as well, but I understand the difficulty with spending precious time with family.

Sounds good! You'll be like David up and running before I get paint in the air!

I purchased the xylotex kit a couple of weeks ago and may use it instead of the HobbyCNC kit. I've bought and cut all the plastic for a BigBear project. Which ever controller I don't use on my Joe's kit will go on the BigBear. Once I got my kit from Joe, the BigBear went up on the shelf. I plan on giving it to my son. Will probably post a few picks once I get the kit from Joe completed.
To bad we don't have 48 hours in a day, around the holidays it seem like I end up with 2 hour days :)

Gotta run, I'll be watching!

Well I just got home from work, no OT today, especially knowing that DHL was coming. Anyhow, apparently my family said that it was a female delivery driver and she had to get two guys at dhl to load it into her truck and when she got here she struggled to get it out. Just a word of advice to joe and I mean this with all respect, you've gotta break down those packages. 4 boxes minimal, make it easy on yourself and the driver. The price difference shouldnt be a whole lot and most couriers will keep the boxes together during shipment atleast within the same day or so. The box was almost destroyed by the time it got here, peanuts attacked my garage like african bees. Sitting down for a few then getting to work, but Joe, thanks for everything. It took a lot of patience and time to wait, but it was most def. worth it. Pics and other stuff to come.

well the driver should have used a dolly, the weight is on the package, and when they pickup from me they use a dolly. This was a bad descision on the driver i would think, no matter if a male or female, they should have a safty standard in place for package weight.

I package the boxes in such a way that they can take a little abuse, and if someone mishandles it my popcorn ninja's will get them. lol

Look forward to your build.

Yeah, I know, they get paid to deliver, not to give excuses! Male or female should have prepared for it. All the parts are scratch/nick free, you did well my friend! Let me know what the total shipping cost was so I can reimburse you. By the way, everythings half inch, assuming its a template kit just full? That's fine, but the pics looked like 3/4, didn't want to start templating out 3/4 when I didn't have to, especially when I'm tired heh. HDPE looks nice, router really mills it nicely. Do you switch tooling for the hdpe vs. the mdf? Thanks again Joe!

Yeah, I know, they get paid to deliver, not to give excuses! Male or female should have prepared for it. All the parts are scratch/nick free, you did well my friend! Let me know what the total shipping cost was so I can reimburse you. By the way, everythings half inch, assuming its a template kit just full? That's fine, but the pics looked like 3/4, didn't want to start templating out 3/4 when I didn't have to, especially when I'm tired heh. HDPE looks nice, router really mills it nicely. Do you switch tooling for the hdpe vs. the mdf? Thanks again Joe!

I use the same bit for HDPE and MDF "CMT 2 flute upspiral 1/8 bit and 1/4" bits" just change spindal speed and feed rate, I usually use 80ipm on most all parts, this is a comfortable speed for cutting with the router.

You have a full kit no need to make more parts from templetes. shipping was 75.00 total with packaging and shipping.

joe

Joe, thanks for the info. Just checked your edrawings at the same time and did some dims. lol I will post pics after dinner. Check your paypal account.

I will post pics after dinner.

You still eating dinner? Where's the pics? ;)

They are coming, been sick all weekend. I will go grab the stuff that was drying last night in the garage and shoot what I'm up to.

Well finally I've got pics, sorry for the wait.. some of the stuff has a coat of primer and needs to be scuffed and top coated.

z carriage with a coat of primer, fixed the adjustment nuts :)

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/01.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/02.jpg

Torsion Box Primed

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/03.jpg

Another box being assembled. I found doing it sections was best, no more than a few ribs at a time.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/04.jpg

Joe's sweet hdpe parts, here and there. A grab box.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/05.jpg

Some more hdpe with the acme nuts and bearings

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/06.jpg

Some lonely parts ready to assemble

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/07.jpg

Glueing up the large ribs

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/08.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/09.jpg

Just to show how messy my freakin shop is. I can't move in there and have avoided cleaning it up a bit.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/10.jpg

Some of my nailers used, pc ftw

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/11.jpg

Bought a bunch of these rockler wide body clamps recently, they absolutely rock. I swear they are better than bessey's and pony clamps.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/12.jpg

Well that's it for now, more to come, going to get the rest glued up and built by this weekend and try to get the hdpe stuff tapped and put together.

And by the way, drywall mud on the edges is an official pain in the ass but is such a cheap way to give nice clean consistent edges so I'm glad I did it. I think a bunch of you did the same thing and probably would agree.

Looking good!

I have to admit I gave up on applying drywall mud to the edges, as you say to much of a pain. What I ended up doing is applying extra layers of paint (both primer and topcoat) to the edges and they are well and truly sealed and I don't think putting spackle on the edges would have given me that much better finish.

I hear yah, just finished the bottom torsion box for the gantry. Going to prime it inside then put the other skin on and spray the outside. I need more primer though lol. Almost thru 2 cans. Home depot here I come. I would like to finish the carriage this weekend and get everything on it and then get the gantry all set.

Great job! Really coming along nicely!

I wish I had purchased some spray paint stock.

Didn't get to many laughs today at HD. The same gal waited on me and said "Back again". Told her I had a lot of walls to tag... got a nasty look, whoops wrong thing to kid around about I guess! :)

I thought about the mud, but I think the reason I don't like to paint is because I'm really not that good at it. I figured I'd mess the whole works up if I started getting to creative. Will do as David did and hit the edges with a little extra paint.

Keep um coming!

don't worry about the paint, just remember, be generous in coats not coat, put a lot on but do it in thin layers.. the biggest mistake people make with contact cement, hvlp sprayers, spray guns and cans is that they put too much on at once.. sandable primer is awesome though, just get some sanding blocks, fine type and scuff sand them smooth, makes a great surface for a top coat.. with the top coat just go light and consistent, back and forth side to side and start spraying off the piece and work your way over it.. once it looks coated stop! anything you miss you can add in a second coat.. and then you're golden.. and yeah they take it seriously.. I still don't understand why they card me sometimes for buying spray products, but I guess it's store policy.. you'de think you were a kid in a liquor store or something.. HD employees around here are rather lazy so I always hit the self checkout, ahh no hassle as long as you don't buy spray paint

don't worry about the paint, just remember, be generous in coats not coat, put a lot on but do it in thin layers.. the biggest mistake people make with contact cement, hvlp sprayers, spray guns and cans is that they put too much on at once.. sandable primer is awesome though, just get some sanding blocks, fine type and scuff sand them smooth, makes a great surface for a top coat.. with the top coat just go light and consistent, back and forth side to side and start spraying off the piece and work your way over it.. once it looks coated stop! anything you miss you can add in a second coat.. and then you're golden.. and yeah they take it seriously.. I still don't understand why they card me sometimes for buying spray products, but I guess it's store policy.. you'de think you were a kid in a liquor store or something.. HD employees around here are rather lazy so I always hit the self checkout, ahh no hassle as long as you don't buy spray paint

Thanks! Have pretty much been doing what you've suggested however I did get in a hurry and got a couple of runs I had to work out.

Now that I know how to turn this gals crank, I hope she's working tomorrow, figure I really get her going when I tell her I'm tossing the empty cans in an open burn barrel. That ought to get her all fired up! :D

I'm just kidding about the burn barrel...

I shudder to think how many cans of spray I got through but it must be getting near 30!

lol @ david, I'm at 7 primers and 3 top coats, although maybe another 4 top coats by the time I'm done..

sparky, be careful, the last thing you want is her calling the fire department on you haha

lol @ david, I'm at 7 primers and 3 top coats, although maybe another 4 top coats by the time I'm done..

sparky, be careful, the last thing you want is her calling the fire department on you haha

Except for some touch up I'm done with the painting. You're right about the fire department. She wasn't working today, so no fun for me... :(

I lost count of the coats of paint I applied but I can tell you I've got a s@#$ load of empty cans. I was painting in the shop and wearing the proper breathing protection, the heater was cycling on and off as normal and then it hit me; I wonder how much of this can get into the air before... boom. Needless to say all went well and the shop is still in one piece :D

Any way thanks for your help on the paint!

Yeah I wouldn't spray around any electronic source except for an explosion proof fan or expl. proof lighting.. stay away from outlets, if the overspray gets in there and causes a spark it will give you a nice little fireball lol.. I said screw it with the respirator, I sprayed out on my porch and then put it to dry in the garage for about an hour then to my shop for a nicer temperature with low moisture in the air.. right now its foggy and thick air outside but warmer, the overspray just sat there it was bad.. just put the top coat on some stuff, semi gloss white, looks great :) .. more pics to come

Are you guys saying that it is not necessary to tape off the spots that will be glued if it is not gloss paint? If this is the case there is no need to tape off for priming, right?

It depends, if you prespray the ribs or anything I wouldn't, can you be more specific? Any areas that need to be glued just go easy on, meaning don't try to spray it but if you do no big deal just scuff it up and move on. Remember, david really started this whole "has to look beautiful" but lets not forget after all it is a machine and it will get nicked up and banged up. However, I would hate to be called a hipocrat with my 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of semi gloss finish lol. I'm just trying to keep up with everyone though.

Hey stranger how's the build coming along?

I've made some head way on mine with a few stumbling blocks, but worked through them.

Get those pics coming! ;)

Hey sparks, pics today probably. Just had a busy week, no energy to work on the build.. much thanks to Joe for his prompt shipment of a missing HDPE part, now I can complete the carriage assembly. Once I do so I will take pics of everything done thus far. I'm going to try (key word) to get the gantry completely done this weekend and if I can get some MDF today get the rest done by mid week and get working on the electronics next weekend when they may arrive. But pics to come, and thanks joe, the part looks good.

Hey sparks, pics today probably. Just had a busy week, no energy to work on the build.. much thanks to Joe for his prompt shipment of a missing HDPE part, now I can complete the carriage assembly. Once I do so I will take pics of everything done thus far. I'm going to try (key word) to get the gantry completely done this weekend and if I can get some MDF today get the rest done by mid week and get working on the electronics next weekend when they may arrive. But pics to come, and thanks joe, the part looks good.

I hear you! I got a lot done today and posted pics. I'm thinking about kicking back and enjoying football all day tomorrow!

sparky, pics tomorrow I guess, I got so busy on the build that I didn't get a chance to take progress pics... I'm happy the slide on the carriage is so smooth.. the u bolts really pulled those bearings in tight, I left them tight but only enough to keep it from wiggling but loose enough to glide nice. Pic's tomorrow morning before I get started. No delays :).

well finally some pics.. haven't made any astounding progress but I have been busy with it none the less... here are a few pics.. should have the thing put together soon just waiting for my MDF that I ordered (coming tomorrow) so I can skin it, pipes are already cut for the gantry, need to get some more for the larger torsion box.. but the carriage is really heavy I was suprised. The carriage flows smoothly, not sure how tight it is supposed to be but I left it a little less so I can tighten it up if I need to down the road.

Primed larger torsion box, waiting for skins.

http://vi01.com/cnc/13.jpg


Carriage, def the most mechanically involved assembly yet.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/14.jpg

Gantry sides without the bearing slides.

http://vi01.com/cnc/15.jpg

Gantry & lower torsion boxes.

http://vi01.com/cnc/16.jpg

Everything is primed and painted just like David's.

Thinking about buying this computer now on newegg for the controller, but might house the controller in it, might not depends on the space.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16883107184

Going to get a 17" or 15" lcd with it as well. No CRT for the router, thought I might as well go nice if I'm spending the time and money on the machine as a whole. Probably will order the xylotex kit once david works his kinks out. Thanks for watching. :rainfro:

Looks great and so familiar ;)

Also big thanks to Joe. He has really gone over the top on helping me, answers all questions promptly even when he doesn't have to. If there wasn't that dedication for the machine and support for it I might have given up already lol. He's made my dream for a cnc router come to life without breaking the bank too badly. Thanks man!

However with sugar coating comes another question. Don't you guys like how this works? One thing I've been kind of hazey about is the hardware to fasten the acme nut blocks to each other. I believe you use 1" 1/2 bolts and washers but that makes them facing each other tight. Everyone elses looked as though they were away from each other just a tad. Are they supposed to be longer or what? Sounds like a silly question but it poses a road block down the road (pun intended) for the rest of my build :). Thanks.

Question 2, just reminded myself I have an electrician coming to do some wiring for me to the main. I might as well have him do some other stuff for my shop while I'm at it. How much power do you think this machine will use at a given time? I figure, PC/Monitor - Dust Collector - Router is enough alone to trip the breaker since I have GFCI's almost all over my house. Is it enough to have him put a separate breaker/circuit in? Thanks!:confused:

bp092,

Looks great!!! You'll be cutting in no time!

Hard to say what you need, if you have circuits in place to handle some of your needs than an additional 20 amp circuit could be enough. If it was me and since it's a shop and you'll have him their anyway I'd add a couple 20 amp circuits. In the shop I have a circuit just for my pc and other electronics. Keeps them off of circuits that can be loaded up with equipment.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking sparky. I could always run extension cords for the computer to another circuit but why do all that when it wouldn't cost that much to have it done right.

Looks like you're making good headway and doing a very good job. Machine looks very familiar. At the rate you're going it won't be long.

Looks like you're making good headway and doing a very good job. Machine looks very familiar. At the rate you're going it won't be long.


Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully will have a lot done by the weekend. Skinning the large torsion box today finally with my mdf I Just had delivered yesterday. Got the computer multifunction card and xylotex kit on it's way here. Bought to order some more components but those will keep me busy for awhile. Now just really looking for a deal on an lcd if I can find one. :rainfro:

Well, it's saturday. Was hoping my xylotex kit would be here today but it's not. I've been sick this weekend so I really wanted to get the controller going since I can do it right by the couch! None the less, I ended up going out and getting some lumber and built a pretty solid and nice sized poplar bench for the router. I plan to make a few cutouts, (3) in the center of it so I can lube and maintain the machine as it was previously suggested. I will post pics of it tomorrow after I do that. Tomorrow should have everything atleast together and waiting the motors. Here's a video (cell phone sorry bad quality) from last week of me playing with my z axis carriage on top of my table saw.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/vid.wmv

Well, it's saturday. Was hoping my xylotex kit would be here today but it's not. I've been sick this weekend so I really wanted to get the controller going since I can do it right by the couch! None the less, I ended up going out and getting some lumber and built a pretty solid and nice sized poplar bench for the router. I plan to make a few cutouts, (3) in the center of it so I can lube and maintain the machine as it was previously suggested. I will post pics of it tomorrow after I do that. Tomorrow should have everything atleast together and waiting the motors. Here's a video (cell phone sorry bad quality) from last week of me playing with my z axis carriage on top of my table saw.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/vid.wmv

Sorry to hear you're under the weather!
I brought my controller home with me and played with it today. Will take it in tomorrow and hook it up.
The video looks good, sounds like it is moving smoothly!

Also big thanks to Joe. He has really gone over the top on helping me, answers all questions promptly even when he doesn't have to. If there wasn't that dedication for the machine and support for it I might have given up already lol. He's made my dream for a cnc router come to life without breaking the bank too badly. Thanks man!

However with sugar coating comes another question. Don't you guys like how this works? One thing I've been kind of hazey about is the hardware to fasten the acme nut blocks to each other. I believe you use 1" 1/2 bolts and washers but that makes them facing each other tight. Everyone elses looked as though they were away from each other just a tad. Are they supposed to be longer or what? Sounds like a silly question but it poses a road block down the road (pun intended) for the rest of my build :). Thanks.

Question 2, just reminded myself I have an electrician coming to do some wiring for me to the main. I might as well have him do some other stuff for my shop while I'm at it. How much power do you think this machine will use at a given time? I figure, PC/Monitor - Dust Collector - Router is enough alone to trip the breaker since I have GFCI's almost all over my house. Is it enough to have him put a separate breaker/circuit in? Thanks!:confused:

Sorry i did not see this post earlier.

try using 2" bolts, on the anti backlash, ans yes they face each other and ate just barely snug just to take up the ever so slight slack of the nut on the lead screw.

my system is all on one circuit.

Joe

Thanks joe, tried 2 and works nice. I left a little room to play. I see they kind of move (if you want them to) without the leadscrew in, back and forth with whatever distance I left and when I insert the leadscrew as a test and hold it back the distance to the head of the bolt it does not move at all and keeps it solid. I'm assuming that is all correct right? Do you have any problems with your GFCI tripping on you? I've had mine hit the breaker at times if I'm doing too much machinery at once. I usually work alone in my own shop but my brother came down and I wanted to make him some furniture so we knocked a whole living room set out in a weekend. I was at the table saw with the dust collector and he was running the jointer or the miter saw and it kicked it off. I will just have to see I suppose :). Pics to come. It's wayyyy too cold to paint right now so I can't paint my skins or touch up some stuff. I'm going to say screw it for now and just assemble it. I can always take it off later and paint the skins. I went to go cut the 3/4 pipe today and it was so cold in my garage that I couldn't feel any heat coming from the pipe. Free coolant I suppose. Taking advice from jay's video I sanded the ends and also sanded them all with 400 and then cleaned them up with steel wool, wow they are really good now. Anyhow, pics to come. Maybe I will get the xylotex stuff tomorrow and start debugging and helping David.

All help gratefully received ;)

you bet david, just assembled the gantry, man could I have used an extra hand or two... it was fun though.. the z carriage assembly was crooked and scared me for a second but I propped it up correctly so it was perfect and then just tightened each of the adjustment screws enough so it rode along the rails perfect.. lovin' joes design, you can almost eye ball some of the things and adjust them later, kind of like blum hardware these days, install them in the cabinet almost as close as you can and then you can adjust them in every which way to make them perfect.. :) pics in next post

well as promised...

this weekend I built a bench out of poplar and 1/2" mdf top. Will do the cutouts later once I get the long pipes in and bolted together with the gantry on. Bench is very solid and leveled out. I put in some ribs so there was no flex at the center of the mdf. Anyhow, the pics.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/17.jpg

The dust collector in which I have to still port out a direct line for the cnc (later on). A similar separator to Joe's and although not as great as the cyclone style it does the job.. bagging the light stuff and putting the heavy stuff in the plastic container. Recommendation though to anyone that starts running things, go metal it will save many headaches. If you get enough static going from the pvc, you can start a fire if it's not grounded (I have a copper grounding throughout it all. That's what I've been told, how much static you need for that, beats me. Also, the flexible hoses are nice but you lose suction with them, the more straight pipes you have the better in my experience. Switching to metal hvac soon. :(

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/18.jpg


And lastly the pages that started it all. Putting the gantry together tonight and even despite being far from cutting I wanted to again say thanks Joe. If it wasn't for you and your well thought out design it would still be a dream to have my own cnc router. :) Thanks man.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/19.jpg

And if anyones wondering what happened to the lower half of my drywall well I had a flood last year due to the idiots that hit my drain lines from my gutters (about a foot underground) and did NOT tell me and just filled it in. My foundation walls couldn't handle it and my entire crawl space filled up and poured over into my shop and the other side where my cnc router will be. Took out about 2 feet of drywall all down the wall to avoid mildew of any kind. It was a total mess, thank god it happened before I had this stuff in there!

Looks good! Your bench looks pretty stout!

What brand and size dust vac are you using?

Keep up the good work!

I have a (Delta 50-760) 1.5 HP 1,200 CFM dust collector, it works well for my setup with only use of one or two machines at once. It works extremely well on my router table so I'm assuming dedicated to my cnc with blast gates it will do a fine job :).

http://www.mgsweb.com/woodworking/buildit/bgate/bgate.htm

http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/BlastGate/blastgatebuilding.html

Joe

lol joe, nice read but I just get the $5.99 ones from woodcraft and they work well.. someday when I go metal I'de love to get electronic blast gates, but that's a bit over kill and lazy for a small shop.. would be cool to have the cnc go on and trip close all the other blast gates in the shop except for the cnc :D.. but a little over the top

some goodies just came


http://www.vi01.com/cnc/xylotex1.JPG

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/xylotex2.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/switches.jpg

I was expecting to see a 'dinged' up power supply in the xylotec parts kit. It is a shame that it got damaged. The only damage I had was to one end of the printer cable which was easy to fix and it had to come a long way.

Regards,
Bob

Yeah it's no biggy, my multifunction stuff won't come until later this week anyways. I'm a reasonable guy, can't get mad at him because usps isn't gentle lol. Big thanks to xylotex, they are shipping out a brand new one today. They really stand behind their product and I respect that.

Updates:

Machines almost done. Finished assembly tonight, was so happy to see it come together. Waiting on the new power supply and will test by the end of the week. Got one more motor to mount and the leadscrews to put in, and also some more threaded rods (ran out lol).

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/20.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/21.jpg

Also I noticed the thing wouldn't sit perfectly flat on my table on one end so I used angle brackets, gotta get more heavy duty ones and will put them on either side as Jay said the machine will function better if it stays put.

Looks very good!

Great job, can't wait to see it in action!
Thanks for the info on the dust collector!

Nice blast gate articles Joe.

Anyone using a grounding wire in their dust collection system to avoid static charges stating a fire?

Just curious after seeing the PVC being used for dust collecting.

Nice blast gate articles Joe.

Anyone using a grounding wire in their dust collection system to avoid static charges stating a fire?

Just curious after seeing the PVC being used for dust collecting.

I have never started a fire from static chrge before, but i have shocked myself from touching the pvc pipe on the dust collector.

after my move i plan on fixing everything up nicely, i will have a large 2 car garage as work shop.

joe

Nice blast gate articles Joe.

Anyone using a grounding wire in their dust collection system to avoid static charges stating a fire?

Just curious after seeing the PVC being used for dust collecting.

I use a copper grounding wire, actually a kit from woodcraft. Works very well. Just run it throughout and ground it to your DC and then it goes through that ground. (I believe/hope):confused: Without it, if I run the DC for awhile, and then go touch it I get shocked. I will see when I get the cnc running whether I Want to switch to metal or not. But pvc is such a cheap solution that's why I did it and many do for that matter.:rainfro:

I have never started a fire from static chrge before, but i have shocked myself from touching the pvc pipe on the dust collector.

after my move i plan on fixing everything up nicely, i will have a large 2 car garage as work shop.

joe

I've heard of the fire thing but I've never heard of it happening. Some woodworkers told me if you had enough of it you could start a fire. But the real question is, how much stuff do you have to be running to produce that? :confused: Must be a lot.

This is from Bill Pentz's website

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Ducting.cfm#FAQs

If you have never read his stuff on dust collection you need to take the time to do it.

Dwayne



# Static Electricity

There is always someone who will bring up the concerns about duct static potentially causing an explosion when you use PVC pipe. PVC pipe is an excellent insulator that will build up a static charge, particularly in a dry cold climate. Although that charge can shock you, the experts say it is not ample to cause an explosion in hobbyist based systems. Dr. Rod Cole wrote an excellent article in Fine Woodworking that debunked the static myth with PVC pipe. He also posted that article on a woodworking forum and gave me permission to include a link to his article. If you are still concerned, go read his information. Dr. Rod Cole has some excellent additional information on grounding PVC on his site: Dr. Rod Cole on Grounding PVC (Click here).

Explosion or not, getting a good zap while next to a sharp blade or cutter can be plenty dangerous, so if you live in a dry climate and chose to use PVC, you might want to seriously consider grounding your ducting. Running a single grounded wire around the outside of your PVC that also attaches to the metal coil spring inside your flex hose helps if you ground that wire both at your machine and your blower. However in dry climates, static can be a real pain around tools and doing a better job of grounding your dust collection piping is worth doing. As I said before most grounding approaches do not work well at all and often lead to plugged pipes. Here is a workable solution shared by one of the many contributors to this site. Thanks for sharing Brent!

Brent Dugan was the Maintenance Supervisor/Plant Engineer for a large 'Meltblown' polypropylene manufacturer (oil sorbents) for 9 years. He shared his way to eliminate those nasty static shocks, "Our product was plastic and our conveying systems, both air and mechanical were plastic. Polypropylene fibers traveling through 3" or 4" PVC piping creates massive amounts of static electricity. Our problem was so severe that we had sparks jumping 1 1/4" from our piping that would leave burn marks on your skin. Our employees dreaded working with the equipment. We tried all of the available methods you proposed and more; e.g., wire inside, wire outside, wrapped wire outside, etc. We spent quite a bit of my company's money to try and solve the problem with consultants and experts all to no avail.

I finally came up with a solution. It was so simple and inexpensive that you will not believe it. As you stated, static is electrons building on the surface of an object. Well, I solved the problem by sticking 2" wide aluminum foil tape to the outside and inside of the PVC piping and then grounding that tape. It is easy to just stick the tape on the outside of the pipe. Unfortunately that was not enough and I also had to put a strip of tape on the inside of the duct.

Putting the tape on the inside was an interesting challenge. I wanted my tape inside and tape outside to end up right next to each other with just the PVC in between so I could use a screw and nut to ground the two layers together. I was only able to make the aluminum tape with a backing like double-sided tape work on the inside. To do so I started by sticking the aluminum tape to the bottom edge of the PVC pipe. Slightly peel the backing and adhere the aluminum tape to the end of a piece of 1/2" EMT, conduit pipe, or other long rod. Feed the aluminum tape through the pipe as you unroll it from the roll. When you have the tape through the PVC, stick the aluminum tape to the end of the PVC pipe. Now 'tape' the backing to the rod then stretch the aluminum tape tightly angling it towards the top of the PVC piping (12 o'clock position). This keeps it from sticking prematurely. Now gently pull the rod out of the PVC that also removes the 'backing strip' off as you go. Keeping the aluminum tape stretched tightly lower it to the bottom side of the PVC pipe. To smooth it onto the inside I slipped in a longer piece of PVC and simply rolled that pipe inside to "iron" the aluminum tape down.

Having the tape back to back made grounding easy. I drilled a hole near each pipe end through both layers of foil, inserted a 1/4-20 screw from the inside of the pipe, put on a nut to make a good circuit, then connected each section using 14 gauge wire. I connected each end with alligator clips to another strip of the aluminum tape adhered to the concrete floor. That totally eliminated the massive static electrical discharges and earned me a bonus!"

Thanks for the comments everyone. DayneInfo, Thanks for your post. That was very informative.
I've heard of the static thing many times over the years. Although I've never cut large amounts of MDF at once, I figured it would be more of a hazard due to it's small particle size.
I recall a local paper manufacturer having a HUGE fire some years back. It was said that the fire began due to a static charge in the ventilation system.
Just thought I'd throw the question out there.

Without any dust collection, I guess my furnace igniting would be more of a concern than a spark caused by static. ;)

bp092: which thickness of MDF you using on your machine.

bp092: which thickness of MDF you using on your machine.


Half inch, I got the kit from joe. I couldn't get any decent 1/4 for the skins so I used half inch. Because of weather reasons I was never able to paint it but I kind of like the two tone look. I will also use a half inch or 3/4 spoil sheet.

Some updates, busy wiring, Waiting for some components and case to put everything in. Started extending the motor cables today with david's tip. I ended up just using quick connectors, crimping them and then heat wrapping the entire 4 wire connections. http://www.vi01.com/cnc/22.jpg

I'm still getting a lot of vibration or rattle from the x acme rod and a little bit from the y just not as much. I've gotten myself pretty much to a wall tightening and untightening. :rolleyes: The machine works but I feel I may be stressing it somehow but who knows, maybe it's going to function fine. Ran it at 100IPM tonight and even with those rod problems I didn't stall or lose any steps that I noticed. Pretty neat if you ask me :).

Looks good.

In reality you are unlikely to run it at anything like that speed, more like 60ipm.

oh I know lol, but it's fun to see it air cut like that, like you said, motors off the machine are a poor representation, and to me motors without cutting are a poor representation as well.. it's going to be a lot different cutting solid oak than say poplar

Looking very nice! 100IPM, wow, how did you deal with the wind coming off the z-axis as it went by? :D

I'm waiting for my threaded clamps ordered from DumpsterCNC and plan on changing the z-axis carriage so that the clamps will be on the outsides instead of the inside. Got my HomeCNC controller built last night and if all goes well will get it hooked up today or tomorrow. When I do I'll put up a video of the machine running the roadrunner code.

Got a video for us yet? :)

Keep up the great work!

That does look good, Great Job on it. you will be cutting in no time at all.

Is it possible your leadscrews are slightly bent and that is causing some whipping?

David is right I Usually Cut at 60ipm to 80ipm max. works great and is pleanty fast at that speed. (fun to watch)

I Finally got everything moved to new house so I need to make the perminate area for the machine now. and get back to cutting. I was actually able to move the whole machine all together. (Boy was it heavy, just a couple of small dings, but all intact).

Joe

Heh, must be nice to have a nice open place to move around and cut things Joe. I figure I will be cutting by this weekend's end. Going to start with poplar, could you suggest maybe 3 or 4 bits I should buy to start with? Or is there one size bit you use most often. Also, do you use 1/4 or 1/2 collets more? I was thinking half inch for stability but shall see. Going to go to lowes this weekend to buy the router might as well buy some end mills or up/down spirals or whatever you reccomend. I have staight buts but I'm not sure they would be appropriate for a cnc router. The acme rods could be bent slightly, do you think over time the machine will work them back or do you think it will pose as a threat to the integrity of my machine if I use them like that? I will take a video of it happening and post the videos I took with my phone tonight. I just have to convert them from cingular's crazy format.

Heh, must be nice to have a nice open place to move around and cut things Joe. I figure I will be cutting by this weekend's end. Going to start with poplar, could you suggest maybe 3 or 4 bits I should buy to start with? Or is there one size bit you use most often. Also, do you use 1/4 or 1/2 collets more? I was thinking half inch for stability but shall see. Going to go to lowes this weekend to buy the router might as well buy some end mills or up/down spirals or whatever you reccomend. I have staight buts but I'm not sure they would be appropriate for a cnc router. The acme rods could be bent slightly, do you think over time the machine will work them back or do you think it will pose as a threat to the integrity of my machine if I use them like that? I will take a video of it happening and post the videos I took with my phone tonight. I just have to convert them from cingular's crazy format.

5 bits should do most anything you want,

1/4" upspiral end mill
1/8" upspiral end mill
1/8" ball nose
60 deg. v bit
90 deg. v bit


with these you can do most your needs, if you do a Litho. then maybe a 1/16" ball nose.

this is when a tool changer comes in handy.

Joe

thanks joe, purchased some of those and the router today.. okay so some new observations tonight..

I wired up the rest of the limit switches and wired them in series and roughed them to where the controller case will be. Tomorrow when I get the router I will put in the flex hoses as my cable carriers and extend the last motor cables. After finishing tonight I toyed with the router just going on all axis's to see where the vibration is coming from. It's really strange because I can't pin it down. The z is flawless, it runs smooth as silk and is quite quiet. The y and x rattle a bit, the y sounds worse but the x wobbles physically more than the y. I realized tonight that the gantry moving along the x only makes the sound of rattling or rocking if I'm going one way. But then five minutes later of not using it the sound might disappear all together, then it comes back. The only consistent part of the router is that the physical attributes that are off are always the same. Somehow to me I feel the gantry is too low and is pushing the rod down, making each end wobble at the bearing. Bringing it up might cure that, but I can't get it to go up any more than it is. Joe or anyone that is running joes build could you measure the distance (within a 16th please) that the gantry sides are off the table. I'm at roughly a half inch. Other than that I'm not quite sure what to do. The machine works fine, but I can't imagine that it is doing any good and it sounds terrible when running a g code apposed to jogging. If it helps I can use a digital sound recorder and host it, I don't have a digital video camera, just a camera phone and that isn't all that good on quality. Anyhow, any ideas anyone? I'm getting pretty stumped on this one. If I wasn't so side tracked with wiring on the build I'de be pretty frustrated. lol Thanks!

Congratulations, you’ll be making dust in no time.

Do you have any plans for a first project?

Hager

First on the list is to cut a dust collector fitting lol. Also got some mahogany and cherry to use up, would like to make some signs for a few friends. After that? Never cut things by hand ever again :D.

thanks joe, purchased some of those and the router today.. okay so some new observations tonight..

I wired up the rest of the limit switches and wired them in series and roughed them to where the controller case will be. Tomorrow when I get the router I will put in the flex hoses as my cable carriers and extend the last motor cables. After finishing tonight I toyed with the router just going on all axis's to see where the vibration is coming from. It's really strange because I can't pin it down. The z is flawless, it runs smooth as silk and is quite quiet. The y and x rattle a bit, the y sounds worse but the x wobbles physically more than the y. I realized tonight that the gantry moving along the x only makes the sound of rattling or rocking if I'm going one way. But then five minutes later of not using it the sound might disappear all together, then it comes back. The only consistent part of the router is that the physical attributes that are off are always the same. Somehow to me I feel the gantry is too low and is pushing the rod down, making each end wobble at the bearing. Bringing it up might cure that, but I can't get it to go up any more than it is. Joe or anyone that is running joes build could you measure the distance (within a 16th please) that the gantry sides are off the table. I'm at roughly a half inch. Other than that I'm not quite sure what to do. The machine works fine, but I can't imagine that it is doing any good and it sounds terrible when running a g code apposed to jogging. If it helps I can use a digital sound recorder and host it, I don't have a digital video camera, just a camera phone and that isn't all that good on quality. Anyhow, any ideas anyone? I'm getting pretty stumped on this one. If I wasn't so side tracked with wiring on the build I'de be pretty frustrated. lol Thanks!


Can you set your jog to like 2ipm and look at leadscrew on the x axis and see if it has a bend in it, that will cause whipping.

On the Z-Axis Carriage try the readjustment of the 5/16" adjustment bolts, turning the fron two in series and the rear two in series and see if it will tilt the Z-Axis carriage to even it out.

Also make sure you have both the Y and X Axis leadscrews preloaded (undertension with the acme nuts both ends, I would go ahead and drill and tap an acme nut on each end (two setscrews per acme nut).

Joe

Joe,

Will try your advice in few. The acme nuts are tight and under tension. I can test with a little more tension to see what happens. Thanks.

joe I've gotten to the point where I'm just saying screw it and I'm going to run a cut and see what happens with my finger ready to hit the stop button in mach3. Basically I did make sure there was tension and preload on the x + y and there is. I got the sound down a little bit on both. Running air at 80 IPM max for all axis's it sounds decent. Something I've yet to figure out however is why my motors start up good sometimes but sometimes don't. After I warm them up they run fine, but at startup sometimes they stall randomly. I might have to talk to xylotex about this, it could be multiple things but I'm wondering if I got a bad motor or two. I ran it really slow too, so I know I wasn't pushing them too hard. Then after jogging it and running a gcode they work fine. Overall I'm satisfied, unless I had you here watching and listening it's going to be hard for me to determine what's wrong until I see what's wrong when it starts cutting wood. I Know that sounds dangerous, allowing the problem to happen with a 2+ hp router running on it, but I think the work it produces and how clean it is will tell me if the wobbling (to any degree) is affecting the cuts. I know the vibration is down significantly on the x and y if I slow it to 80. 100 must just be too much for the setup and was a little over the top on my part. I think I'm going to test cut with no more than 50 for the first trial and run something simple like david's name he gave me the g code for. Anyhow, still have much wiring to do before I'm comfortable with firing it up all together. Still want the safety charge pump in and all those gizmos and gadgets.

Also one more thing I've noticed. Sometimes if I mess with the settings on the motors or in general it starts to bug out mach 3, as in the feed rate on the software end will be at like 400 IPM or 1000IPM but it won't try to feed it that fast, it just bugs it out a lot. Might try a different earlier proven version of mach 3 or just when I buy it hope it is all good. Thanks for the help, updates and pics to come. David hurry up on your controller man! Me being electronically challenged is making me rely on you lol. :D

bp092,

How's the build coming along? Did you do any cutting yet?
Can't wait to see it cutting! I'm getting close. I've posted a reply in David's site with my schedule for tomorrow so if all goes well I'll have a video and pics to show. If it works out I may try cutting something this weekend.

Look forward to seeing you guys do some cutting, and some finished work pieces, like to see what all everyone is making with the machine.

Hey joe, sparky, going to get the rest wired up this morning, just only confused now on the ac relay card and how to wire that up.. then I'm going to test cut some stuff with my hand by the estop button lol

Hey joe, sparky, going to get the rest wired up this morning, just only confused now on the ac relay card and how to wire that up.. then I'm going to test cut some stuff with my hand by the estop button lol

Great! I'm just heading out the door for some breakfast and then I get to go play in the shop, yahoooo! Have a busy day planned and if all goes well I'll have pics a videos later today.

You're build is coming along great! Be back later today to see your master piece :)

Well didn't get to cut anything today. Still wiring, and confused to say the least lol.

David's cool idea to make plug and play easy. That cable is for the usb and I have 3 more for each limit series.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/23.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/24.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/25.jpg

The mess, and my hack job of wiring. I guess it reflects on my inner woodworker. Now I have to figure out the rest of the safety charge pump wiring and the ac relay card maybe tomorrow. Possibly cutting tomorrow night. Possibly. :confused:

Glad I have a multifunction card ;)

Well didn't get to cut anything today. Still wiring, and confused to say the least lol.

David's cool idea to make plug and play easy. That cable is for the usb and I have 3 more for each limit series.

The mess, and my hack job of wiring. I guess it reflects on my inner woodworker. Now I have to figure out the rest of the safety charge pump wiring and the ac relay card maybe tomorrow. Possibly cutting tomorrow night. Possibly. :confused:

What is the board that is circled in red?

What is the board that is circled in red?


safety charge pump

Well didn't get to cut anything today. Still wiring, and confused to say the least lol.

David's cool idea to make plug and play easy. That cable is for the usb and I have 3 more for each limit series.

The mess, and my hack job of wiring. I guess it reflects on my inner woodworker. Now I have to figure out the rest of the safety charge pump wiring and the ac relay card maybe tomorrow. Possibly cutting tomorrow night. Possibly. :confused:

Case looks good! A few wire ties will go a long way towards cleaning up the wires. So today's the big day? Hope you get it cutting, will be back to see the video. :)

safety charge pump

Where did you buy your Safety Charge Pump?

Did a Google and the only one ($16.95) I found was out of business.

Thanks
Hager

Hager you can get them from www.cnc4pc.com.

David

Hager David posted the link. Most people at the zone that I've seen have been buying from cnc4pc. Arturo there offers awesome support, phone and instant messenging. He helped me get my stuff wired up and walked me through a lot of it. Plus his boards are fairly reasonably priced. Although as David said go with the multifunction card if you need the whole bundle, saves a lot of headaches in wiring. TRUST ME.. :)

Hager you can get them from www.cnc4pc.com.

David

Thanks David,

Tried to call but no answer, they had a on screen communicate form but it wasn't working. So tried E-Mail, hope they are still in business.

Thanks

Hager

Hager, they are, arturo is on skype now, and I talked to him this morning.

Arturo is definitely still in business. I always communicate with him via email.

David

Arturo is definitely still in business. I always communicate with him via email.

David

Thanks David,

I just wait for a reply from him.

Hager

well I just made my first real cut.. I gave up on the cnc4pc stuff for now, I've been totally cnc frenzy and am sick of wiring, but will do that when I get the time.. I had a few hours to kill today and that was just enough to get running.. I tried david's test file he sent me and it ran perfectly, then I ran into problems with the road runner file, it just all of a sudden plunged way too deep so I hit the stop button and backed it off.. also note I wore glasses and had my hand on the stop button the entire time, call me a wuss but I still don't trust the machine :)

And for the more observant yes I did run the d, I forgot to rewind after air testing it one last time.. lol

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/26.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/27.jpg

Well done Brian!

The roadrunner file may have had the z axis 0 set in a different place I on the machine table or on the top of the work piece.

David

Looks good, try some of the V-Carve sample files, you can save and cut the samples, just can not create some if not purchased yet.

Joe

yeah going to go run one now, :) brb pics to come then I have to go

another sample file I just cut..

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/28.jpg

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/29.jpg

and yes again that is the xylotex controller that everyone is bashing :) but this is nothing, those are light passes on a soft wood (african mahogany), lets see how it handles hard wood :D

looks good, but for some reason i thought it was larger than that?

How is the machine working now?

Joe

Me too.. lol I'm not sure why mach3 cut it so small.. weird huh? will investigate tonight.. works fine, only makes a really horrible noise on the x sometimes going back and forth, I think its the lead rod, also the nut in the backlash assembly (top one I believe) is loose and spins sometimes I can hear it.. again this affects nothing in the quality of the carve though.. strange though that its so smoooth even though the machine sounds so bad

heres the gcode, v-carve 1 is the one I ran in the photo, test is the one I saved again.. I will run the other one in mach when I get back..

Hey Brian do you have your steps set correctly in the motor tuning for each axis for the microstepping you have set? If not you are going to scale up or down the stuff you are cutting.

well I just made my first real cut.. I gave up on the cnc4pc stuff for now, I've been totally cnc frenzy and am sick of wiring, but will do that when I get the time..

I received this from CNC4PC it might help you in your wiring.
http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/E_STOP_N_SCHP.pdf

Looks like your boards.


Good job of cutting. I'm so jealous.

Hager

Hey Brian do you have your steps set correctly in the motor tuning for each axis for the microstepping you have set? If not you are going to scale up or down the stuff you are cutting.

probably not I'm running just what you sent me, I will play with it, any reccomendations on steps and stuff? thanks David

I received this from CNC4PC it might help you in your wiring.
http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/E_STOP_N_SCHP.pdf

Looks like your boards.


Good job of cutting. I'm so jealous.

Hager


Yes, that diagram helped immensely. The c1g is a different older board but the pins are the same.

BTW david, I had the file set to scale factor of 2.0, would that have had any adverse affect to the cutting file?

Brian,

Wow, I'm just jumping out of my shoes! Great job, how exciting to see the results of your machine in action!

Keep up the excellent work!

David is talking about what micro stepping your board is set at and in motor tunning in Mach3 what do you have steps set to?

What microstepping do you have your board set to? What does the steps say in motor tuning?

David

checking now guys, btw is there any freeware to program in like vcarve? something even simple, want to carve two names for tomorrow for work, simple carve and then plunge with tabs around them.. or any trials that would allow saving? Probably going to purchase vcarve soon but have to put some more money aside for it

step pulse and direct pulse are 0 0 for all three axis's

you know you're right, I just jogged it 2 inches and it's like 1 inch in reality

checking now guys, btw is there any freeware to program in like vcarve? something even simple, want to carve two names for tomorrow for work, simple carve and then plunge with tabs around them.. or any trials that would allow saving? Probably going to purchase vcarve soon but have to put some more money aside for it

That would be v-carve ;) Well worth the money.

That would be v-carve ;) Well worth the money.


I know, going to purchase it this week. It's such a sweet piece of software. :)

step pulse and direct pulse are 0 0 for all three axis's


No not the pulse, it's the value in the fist box on the left, it will say something like 32,000, or 16,000 or 8,000.

What microstepping is the board set to? ie what jumpers are covered? ms1, ms2 or none?

No not the pulse, it's the value in the fist box on the left, it will say something like 32,000, or 16,000 or 8,000.

What microstepping is the board set to? ie what jumpers are covered? ms1, ms2 or none?

only the ena's are covered..

running 8000 steps per

the pdf says MS2 jumper not installed quarter step and eighth step, ms1 jumper not installed half step and eighth step

You should set it for 16,000 for each axis not 8000. 200 x 10tpi x 8 = 16000 (1/8 stepping is what you have the card set to with no jumper on MS1 or MS2.

David

that seems to tax the machine alot david and cause the gantry to vibrate, also stalls the motors, should I move the jumpers?

sorry to clarify, z runs shotty at 16000, x and y are OK but not perfect, I wouldn't want to test cut though with it like that, the motor is stalling a lot on the z at that steps per

sorry to clarify, z runs shotty at 16000, x and y are OK but not perfect, I wouldn't want to test cut though with it like that, the motor is stalling a lot on the z at that steps per

once you redo your steps in mach you need to tune the motors, change the vel. to 60 and accel to 15 and see what happens, you know when you change the vel. and hit the tab button you can test it right in motor tunning by pressing the up and down button, then when satisfactory, save that axis and set the others.

Joe

joe changed the jumpers to 1/4 stepping ms1 and I don't even get a response anymore from the motors.. sparky tried successfully on ms1 @ 1/4, but then again wouldn't 1/4 be worse for me than 1/8th anyways?

joe changed the jumpers to 1/4 stepping ms1 and I don't even get a response anymore from the motors.. sparky tried successfully on ms1 @ 1/4, but then again wouldn't 1/4 be worse for me than 1/8th anyways?

you will not see a difference cutting wood at 1/4 steps, most people use 1/4 steps on their board. i have even used 1/2 and still works good.

Then leave it at 8000 on each axis and change the microstepping on the board to 1/4 (jumper on MS1)

apparently 1/4 doesn't work then, have to email xylotex maybe its faulty, switched back to 1/8 th will fine tune but cut tomorrow, too late to cut my family will disown me if I turn on the router lol

well now I have a compromising situation, my z is apart now, took the motor off, the backlash assembly nut (top one) came out and is spinning loose on the rod and now its tight against the bearing and I can't get the rod out. damn...

nevermind, got the thing put back together after fixing the backlash and it runs better than before, phew!

I was going to sugest to take a picture of it. you need to get a camera, get a 3 meg. pixel for 80-90 dollars, walmart or other places. some will do video also.

Joe

I have a 6mp one but its not video.. anyhow, just ran bullshead and david again, man is the quality shotty, but it was taking most of the stuff in one pass and plunging a lot harder than I would have liked.. I probably A. ran it too fast and B. took too much off in each pass. Will take pics now and screenshot of vcarve readout of my settings to show.

okay here is bullshead again..

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/30.jpg

Need to get a dust collector hooked up :D

Sapele cuts nice though, not much small airborne dust, just chips.


http://www.vi01.com/cnc/31.jpg

It looks perfect, but it isn't hardly, atleast I don't think so. I'm not dissatisfied, this is what I want, because now I know I'm doing something wrong and I can measure the accuracy in quality. Check out the full res. linked below to see the detail. I took it without a flash so mind the slight blur, the flash washes out the imperfections. I drew red lines by the marks. It was pretty consistent, like little bumps as if there was vibration on the gantry or z or everything as a whole. I'm not suprised, I can see it as the machine jogs. Also occasionally it bumps into something too deep (maybe a 32nd" tops) and marks it up on some letters. Any thoughs?

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/32full.jpg
http://www.vi01.com/cnc/31full.jpg

I have a 6mp one but its not video.. anyhow, just ran bullshead and david again, man is the quality shotty, but it was taking most of the stuff in one pass and plunging a lot harder than I would have liked.. I probably A. ran it too fast and B. took too much off in each pass. Will take pics now and screenshot of vcarve readout of my settings to show.

Almost all digital cameras have video capability now, sounds like you need to get the manual out.

I was just thinking about that today for mine, I'm getting closer.

Hager

Almost all digital cameras have video capability now, sounds like you need to get the manual out.

I was just thinking about that today for mine, I'm getting closer.

Hager


No, sorry. I have a nikon DSLR, it's manual digital and also fully automatic. I used to have but sold my fujifilm s5000 which did pretty decent video. I will be able to get video though next weekend or next week. Will help I'm sure to be able to listen to my machine and tell me what it sounds like. Right now I'm just winging it like many of you did when you first started off I'm sure.:)

Also my vcarve settings..

90 degree 1/2" v bit
home x 0 y 0 z .5
Safe z .2 inches
rapid rate 60.0 in/minute
scale factor 2.0
feed plunge 60/30 ipm
spindle 16000 rpm
max depth .2397
pass depth .25 <-- too much, my mistake

Going to run it at 1/8th inch pass depth and see how it goes.

No, sorry. I have a nikon DSLR, it's manual digital and also fully automatic. I used to have but sold my fujifilm s5000 which did pretty decent video. I will be able to get video though next weekend or next week. Will help I'm sure to be able to listen to my machine and tell me what it sounds like. Right now I'm just winging it like many of you did when you first started off I'm sure.:)

My 5+ year old Nikon cool pix 4500 has movie capability and I'm sure yours does, but it may be hard to find in out how to do it, and take a lot of momory.

My 5+ year old Nikon cool pix 4500 has movie capability and I'm sure yours does, but it may be hard to find in out how to do it, and take a lot of momory.


LOL I'm 100% positive it does not. It's basically a film camera with a digital aperture. But my brother has a digital video camera, will do that next weekend or next week...

Joe and anyone interested. I just ran it again 40IPM 1/8th passes and it was 100% better. I know it sounds slow but to me it's wicked fast and the quality is pretty good for what it is. That's v carving, going to program some cut outs with tabs see how it goes ;).. damn I'm addicted..

:rainfro:

Yes I think those marks is the tool chattering because the feed rate is probably to fast and certainly the pass depth is to deep, try 40ipm and 0.125 first and if that is okay work your way up.

Also my vcarve settings..

90 degree 1/2" v bit
home x 0 y 0 z .5
Safe z .2 inches
rapid rate 60.0 in/minute
scale factor 2.0
feed plunge 60/30 ipm
spindle 16000 rpm
max depth .2397
pass depth .25 <-- too much, my mistake

Going to run it at 1/8th inch pass depth and see how it goes.

Mr Chips no it does'nt, Nikon DSLR dont have video. I have a Nikon D1x.

David

It's not that slow for a home built machine ;)

LOL I'm 100% positive it does not. It's basically a film camera with a digital aperture. But my brother has a digital video camera, will do that next weekend or next week...

Joe and anyone interested. I just ran it again 40IPM 1/8th passes and it was 100% better. I know it sounds slow but to me it's wicked fast and the quality is pretty good for what it is. That's v carving, going to program some cut outs with tabs see how it goes ;).. damn I'm addicted..

:rainfro:

what were the settings you cut at before looked like you were getting chatter in the X-Axis, on the 1/8 setting now motor tunning is 16,000 steps per.

def. chatter on the x, I'm questioning the lead rod and how straight it is.. or how square the gantry is to the table, as it might be too loose in some places. One major thing I did notice is one of the nuts for the adjustment bolts on the gantry sides came out and stripped the hole somehow. I believe its the only one on the machine that has however. Is most chatter caused by it being too tight or too loose in your experience?

Most chatter is caused by too high feed rates / to deep a cut.

Remember that your feed rates and depth of cut will also need to be adjusted for different materials.

I would start of gentle on the machine and work your way up until you see chatter.

David

sounds right david, just gotta beat the hell out of the machine and work out its kinks, it's all a process. I'm just happy to be cutting. My head was just twisted in the whole wiring, want to just cut stuff for a few weeks :).

Mr Chips no it does'nt, Nikon DSLR dont have video. I have a Nikon D1x.

David


You are right none of the digital SLR cameras have video. At least none did the last time I researched cameras. Thats the the reason I went with a so called prosumer(SP) type.

Garry

Hey everyone. I've been busy so I haven't had the time to record these but here is my best attempt. The first one is just x + y, second is x, y and z. There is a little explanation on them as well. I would take a video but besides the fact that I don't have a digital video camera the machine looks and functions fine, but the sounds are what really is bad anyways. There are small bumps but I'm working out my gcode to see if it was just a poor artcam setup that I had as I could see almost the exact same bumps in my work. The endmill left tiny bumps, not a clean straight line, but ones that were barely noticeable, even to a woodworkers standards. Edge sander can fix that in seconds.

I just do not like that noise it's making because I know it shouldn't be happening and the fact that it is happening worries me when I'm running a bit at 15000 RPMS on a fairly dangerous router; I'm basically shooting cards you know, waiting for something to happen. I'de like to rectify the problem so it stops. My best evaluation is that it is due to the anti back lash assembly which is very hard to access although I have a good 4x4 square cutout under my machine table so I can crawl under and look/adjust. Nothing seems out of the ordinary though. I might take things apart though and make sure the nuts arent just grinding together. The strange thing however is that it only happens on the far end of the machine, farthest from the x motor mount and it only happens when jogging in one direction, away from the motor mount. Almost like the nut may be getting pulled from the block and grinding then when jogging back towards the motor mount it gets pushed back in. Not sure though.

Any thoughts, reponses welcome. Put it this way, I can here that sound even with the router, dc, and steppers humming; it's that bad. You may also hear the chattering on the bearing ever so slightly, maybe it's common not sure. Thanks!

http://vi01.com/cnc/test1.wav

http://vi01.com/cnc/test2.wav

also a question..

My gantry head z can slide back and forth a quarter inch because of that anti back lash block, right on the bolt, is that supposed to happen? I have about a quarter inch between the nuts, they used to not be able to move but now the nut can come out of its hdpe holding block if it wants to just a little bit. When I make a curve sometimes not even back routing, but a regular cut it will chatter the router, at first making me nervous now used to it and then proceed to be normal. I just feel the z isn't tight enough and solid, there is too much play still. Thanks again!

On the first sound track apart from one squeak on the x axis only part which sounds like you have not put any lubricant on the leadscrew the rest sounds fine. On the second one I hear the squeak again, try backing of the anti-backlash just a bit and see if the sounds different. You do have lubricant on the leadscrew, don't you?

There should be no play in the z axis, are you sure the leadscrew is tight?

David

On the first sound track apart from one squeak on the x axis only part which sounds like you have not put any lubricant on the leadscrew the rest sounds fine. On the second one I hear the squeak again, try backing of the anti-backlash just a bit and see if the sounds different. You do have lubricant on the leadscrew, don't you?

There should be no play in the z axis, are you sure the leadscrew is tight?

David

David,

I will lube it up some more. I've been using dry wet lube, top-cote which I use on all of my tools regularly, especially the router table or hand router on the bearing and plate. Jay reccomended a lube, but are there any you guys are using that I can get locally? The back lash assembly under the x table is pretty hard to access besides tightening and loosening the bolts, and even that is a challenge, hopefully it's only lube that is the problem. The ms paint drawing below (excuse me for it's roughness) should explain the backlash assembly problem I'm having, it could be the same for the x, where the nut works its way out. Remember this didn't happen until just recently, I think the vibration in the rods made it do it. Also the vibration is down a lot where it bounces up and down. David do your acme rods bounce at all?

http://vi01.com/cnc/backlash.JPG

Also note, that I can do the same exact thing with the Z assembly, where if I wanted to I could touch it down and in effect raise it up resting the bit on the work piece. Although I can't see it, I'm sure its the same for the x assembly.

Well the normal setup as you have drawn it is the same as the second one after you have moved the axis. The anti-backlash bolts should be just lightly snugged down to the HDPE block not standing off from it by what looks like about 1/8". Setup this way will allow not only the axis to have backlash but also on the Z-axis probably result in the acme nut working its way out of the HDPE block.

David

so put them back in, so they are right, then tighten the bolts so that the head hits the hdpe? won't that just bring the nuts to face each other? If I did it without the acme lead rod, then it won't go in properly, I had to put them in loose as you may remember to get them towards each other to get the darn thing in there at all.

BTW I just cut the DC piece and brackets, thanks for your help and thank you joe for the gcode :D.

Quality is a little butch, but I'm still thoroughly impressed. I have a feeling that if I can fix what's going wrong and tighten this thing up, it won't vibrate and then I won't get the bumps. Although, those bumps are very similar to all the ones I saw in my hdpe parts cut by joe so I don't know..

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/dc.jpg

Oh and that was just a test, going to do HDPE next :)

No do it after the acme rod is in and set the 1/4" gap between nuts, then tighten to just loosely touching the HDPE (not tight though). What you should do is tighten it slowly towards the HDPE while trying to move the axis to test for movement. As soon as the movement disappears stop tightening.

If you are talking about the "bumps" on the edges I think that is normal.

sounds good, will try that.. btw put a ton of lube on the x assembly, again top cote and I don't hear a whole lot, and if I remember correctly, x is already tight, I never left it loose, I need to tighten up z though too

- check out my pic to see bumps, sometimes the occasional nick and bump which is because my stuff is too loose, just wondered if it should be showing those bumps or if anyone has joes machine and been able to cut very crisp edges with it?

I had the same problem with my Z-axis. When I put the threaded clamps on I reversed the bearing blocks so the clamps could be on the outside for easy access. After re-assembly I forgot to tighten down the two bolts on the anti-backlash nuts. I was all set to go with the router in place when all of a sudden the router mount dropped about 3/16" pulling the nut up that distance. When I pushed it back up and forced the nut back into place I notice I did not have the two bolts tightened and the head of the bolt was about 3/16" away from the HDPE. I tightened them down just to be snug and it still turned freely with no noticeable play. If you tighten it to much it will get to the point were you can't turn the acme rod by hand at all.
I believe there is about 3/16" - 1/4" between the nuts on my machine but as long as they aren't touching and you have enough bolt threads in the HDPE so it can't pull loose, distance apart can very. At least that's the way it appears to me.

I did post a couple of more pics on my site of the Y-Axis anti-backlash set up and will take a close up tomorrow. But as David said judging by your pictures that'll take care of the problem as shown.

Like you dust collector, it looks really good!

After looking at my own pictures it appears that the two nuts on the y-axis anti-backlash nuts are more than a 1/4" apart. I'll have to look at that tomorrow and make sure I have enough threads into the HDPE... whoops :o

Even as is, as long as there is enough threads to keep the bolts from stripping out of the HDPE it should be fine and there is no noticeable play.

I tightened them up, now there is no play, but vibration still occurs.. at this point I've observed another thing, I definetly had my gantry side adjustment bolt s (1 of the 4) stripped from the hole and its out, not sure how I can fix that very easily or if it totally matters..

I'm about to cut the DC again in HDPE, only could find one 1/2" cutting board (they are cheap at home goods, $9) so I've got one or two shots at it. Any tips on feedrates or speed setting for the router? Never in my life routed plastics of any kind.

16,000 rpm, .1 passes at 40ipm with a spiral upcut bit

brian can you barrow a video cam or anything to take some video shots of the vibration? and also shots of the anti-backlash areas white cutting maybe the roadrunner file.

yeah joe I will this week for you, best way to show you everything at once.. anyhow, I just cut the DC sides and bottom, they came out great! The cutting board idea is so creative. I still have room if I'm careful to cut maybe 2 or 3 of those clamps I saw david and you use :). But I think those were from 3/4 material, I could be wrong though. Parts look good, a little tlc from a sharp chisel and the bumps are minor, nothing worse than what I saw on joe's cut hdpe parts so I know I'm not too far off. One thing I will mention though is that it was quite the battle, fighting off all those plastic chips! I was covered by the time both gcode files were run, even holding the hose to it :D. THe plastic cuts like butter though. Cut them at 60 IPM 10 accel, will post pics when I get back from HD of the finished attachment.

And a video documen. this week.

I cut the clamps from 0.5"

thanks david, have the g code for the clamps? will cut those while I have the stuff still screwed down :) and test the new dc hookup at the same time :D

Well I got a fair amount accomplished this weekend on my joe's 06' machine. Appreciate all the help, files, and tidbits from members here and joe. David ;) always comin' to the rescue.

Anyhow, the fruits of the labor.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/33.jpg

A mahogany sign for someone that got me looking for cncs otherwise I would have never found the zone or built this machine. He deserves my first good piece of work. 150% better than the first one I cut of the same design, just tinkered with the gcode file, took lighter slower passes and the bumps were non existent. Ran it at about 50 IPM 10 accel. 1/8" deep passes MAX, 1/6th" on the vcarve. It took awhile, but I'm willing to wait for quality, many of you might agree.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/34.jpg

The dust collection piped in, bungeed from the ceiling on a bar so it slides at the center point both ways, it's working very well, just need a better bristle structure like the one david purchased instead of my hack job at a $5 home depot hand broom lol.

http://www.vi01.com/cnc/35.jpg

And my nifty cheap way at mounting an e-stop. They are outdoor rated recepticles with a flat cover, just drilled a hole in it, mounted it and will wire it up when I get the patience to conquer the multifunction boards again heh. Purchased the estop (basically a proxy switch with an arcade style push button) from cnc4pc.

Thoughts, suggestions, critisism all welcome. :rainfro:

Look very good, Yes i agree, the quality is what i would be after, just let the machine do its job and you can go be doing something else while it works, like surf the CNCZone... lol

looks like you are there now with the machine, great work.

I like that E-stop button, simple yet functional.

Joe

Great job Brian! The sign looks very nice!

How well persentage wise do the dust collectors work? Would you say the pick up 70, 80 percent?

I've got to get a DC cut and installed, the amount of dust from the roadrunner cut I did was increadible!

I'm not entirely worried about getting everything because the only way to do that would be to get in the way of the tool path. The best I want is so that all airborne debree is picked up and that it remains on top of the table. Then I pull the hose out of the fitting and suck up the rest. It's almost there, but I need better bristles. IMO buy what david bought, I will try to find the link he posted, I'm purchasing it tomorrow. The time spent hacking up a broom is useless when that stuff is so cheap. Plus I'm sure david would agree the chip control is pretty damn good with that setup in there. For me now it's about 50%, with the new bristles, probably 75%, the rest remaining in the cracks and on top of the piece being cut. One thing I have noticed is the bristles are in the way of tool changing. Can't wait to later down the road have an ATC after joe and david put a lot of time on it; I will likely follow their footsteps ;).

I'm not entirely worried about getting everything because the only way to do that would be to get in the way of the tool path. The best I want is so that all airborne debree is picked up and that it remains on top of the table. Then I pull the hose out of the fitting and suck up the rest. It's almost there, but I need better bristles. IMO buy what david bought, I will try to find the link he posted, I'm purchasing it tomorrow. The time spent hacking up a broom is useless when that stuff is so cheap. Plus I'm sure david would agree the chip control is pretty damn good with that setup in there. For me now it's about 50%, with the new bristles, probably 75%, the rest remaining in the cracks and on top of the piece being cut. One thing I have noticed is the bristles are in the way of tool changing. Can't wait to later down the road have an ATC after joe and david put a lot of time on it; I will likely follow their footsteps ;).

You'll get a lot better dust collection if you don't constrict the flow with that shop vac hose. BTDT

The only thing I would do when I replace my bristles is get longer ones. You can get flexible backed bristles from McMaster (search for strip brush) They are'nt that cheap (about $36). I tried the metal backed ones but they will not bend properly.

You'll get a lot better dust collection if you don't constrict the flow with that shop vac hose. BTDT

Well it was the peer pressure. Everyone else was doing it. But wouldn't a smaller hose bring more suction anyways? :confused: for example if you put your hand in the tube it sucks heavier, if you take it out it spreads the air out and creates less suction. I could be entirely wrong though. Only thing I'm positive about is that the hoses with ridges in them cause suction loss and that it is crucial to run hose lines in straight pipes as close to the machine as possible. Flex piping loses suction, or so I've heard for years.

The only thing I would do when I replace my bristles is get longer ones. You can get flexible backed bristles from McMaster (search for strip brush) They are'nt that cheap (about $36). I tried the metal backed ones but they will not bend properly.


Really? will look into it more. I'm not concerned about price, just want to keep things tidy, stuff in the bearings or in the way of them doesn't do any good.

You do not need alot of suction pwer to pick up air born dust. You need air flow. Reducing hose resticts air flow on a dust collector

Dwayne

Dust collection is about air flow. When you reduce the diameter by half, you restrict the flow about 4 times. Shop vacs work by suction. That's what lifts and removes heavier objects.

Ah, that would make sense, but I will test it out some more with cutting things like MDF where airborne dust will be a lot more significant (as apposed to chips).

Rule of thumb: Dust collectors make lousy shop vacs and shop vacs make lousy dust collectors.

Well some videos from not too long ago. My cell phone is not the best of video quality so bear with me. Plus its a pita to get videos off. It's a microsd card on my phone isn't compatible because LG screwed up their software, so it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. Then have to convert their stupid video format (trial program) that only allows up to a certain percentage of the file. Anyhow, some mahogany cutting and hdpe. Enjoy. I do have another on the way of the sound its making when cutting on a funky back and forth tool path, broke the upspiral bit but just got another one, lowered the RPMs and its still doing it. Will post that tomorrow night.

vid1 (http://vi01.com/cnc/vid1.wmv)
vid2 (http://vi01.com/cnc/vid2.wmv)
vid3 (http://vi01.com/cnc/vid3.wmv)

Well some videos from not too long ago. My cell phone is not the best of video quality so bear with me. Plus its a pita to get videos off. It's a microsd card on my phone isn't compatible because LG screwed up their software, so it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. Then have to convert their stupid video format (trial program) that only allows up to a certain percentage of the file. Anyhow, some mahogany cutting and hdpe. Enjoy. I do have another on the way of the sound its making when cutting on a funky back and forth tool path, broke the upspiral bit but just got another one, lowered the RPMs and its still doing it. Will post that tomorrow night.

vid1 (http://vi01.com/cnc/vid1.wmv)
vid2 (http://vi01.com/cnc/vid2.wmv)
vid3 (http://vi01.com/cnc/vid3.wmv)

Sounds and looks like your machine is doing really good!
Any still shots of the finished items?

thanks sparky, one of the videos you will hear in the beginning a sound, that was from awhile back when I had that weird noise from the x axis, I haven't heard it in a while.. glad

tightened the machine up well, I think that's the trick, and I think my rod was bent but overtime the machine worked it back in place so its good..

I will post pics of work soon :)

Here is the video I mentioned. I asked joe to take a look and give me his thoughts but I would like any elses as well. I'm pretty new to some of this stuff and I've never experienced this sound from hand cutting and I've taken some pretty heavy deep passes with routers before. I'm running it in the video at 60IPM 1/8" pass in some sapele (fairly soft wood) at router setting of a little more than 3. I hit the estop though as well and for some reason I lost my place in mach3 and my machine is zerod out in the middle of the toolpath. Anyone know if there is a fairly accurate way to start even on that tool path file? As in, finding my start point and regening the toolpath? I'de hate to lose the wood and the machine time in vcarving the first couple paths on the job. Thanks.

LINK (http://www.vi01.com/cnc/problem.avi)

Oh and just to clarify I stopped it last time and brought it back to my home so I just ran this again on the same path and didn't lose it, that's why you don't hear the noise until half way into the video when it starts to finally hit the material where I left off.

It sounds like a bad case of chatter. Try either speeding up the router of slowing down the feed rate.

yeah, I've tried speeding up the router, doesn't do much trust me on that, will try to up the feedrate, but wouldn't that risk breaking the bit some more? It's weird that I don't get this on my 1/8" spiral nor have I seen it this bad before, it's just now on this toolpath in general.. joe looked at the file however and said it looked fine, any idea on getting back on that toolpath david so I don't have to waste more wood and time?

sorry thought you said up the feedrate, I stand corrected, but any ideas on the mach3 getting back to where I should be? thanks

Also try smaller depth passes

I hit the estop though as well and for some reason I lost my place in mach3

Any time you hit the estop (or even the regular stop button) in Mach3 you'll lose position. The only way to maintain your position is to stop with the pause button.

As for the noise, it's normal. Some bits are noisier than others. With small bits, always try to use the shortest bit possible to minimize vibrations. Make sure the workpiece is clamped down securely. And any slop or backlash will aggravate the problem. As for going faster, you shouldn't have any problems if your machine is tight. On a large commercial machine, we never cut slower than 120 ipm with 1/8" bits. Never broken a bit. if the bit is sharp, it should be pretty hard to break it unless you go too slow and get it really hot


And we do get the same noise on occasion with 1/8" and 1/4" bits, more often when cutting hardwoods than sheet goods.

thanks ger, will try again, one thing I do need to fix is the one nut that stripped making the gantry on the right side on an angle (the bearing blocks) so not all of the bearings are making contact, making a little play if I move it with my hands with sufficient force.. I drilled it out and now will replace the nut on the outside pin it in and just put it in hdpe from the outside but against the outtermdf and use a longer bolt and hopefully that play will tighten things up. I will just try again, but I know I might break the bit. I just don't see how I can break a bit at 1/8" pass conventionally cutting on a brand new carbide bit. It just doesn't make sense, but maybe it was just the freud bit which I'm sending to them per request to checkout. If the whiteside bit breaks I won't cut anything until my machine is resolved. The noise is pretty bad, and unbearable to the naked ear, never heard it thus far in my machining and I've used a quarter and eighth before. I'm using a 1" cut length bit, the minimum for this thickness wood. Should I jog follow back to the position where the toolpath is or start over? I don't mind if it's off, I will be testing anyways you know?

I always use 1/8" spirals which usually only have 1/2" cutting length. 1" cutting length would definately be more fragile and be more likely to make a lot of noise. I'd recommend using a larger bit if you can. A 3/8" bit should eliminate the noise, and will let you make fewer passes at higher speeds.

I was hoping not to have to get into 3/8th tooling but maybe it is inevitable, I will go ahead and buy a whiteside or onsrud. I wonder if 1/2" shanks would make a difference? My v bits are cutting the wood like butter and I get next to NO bumps on my work pieces as they should be (I get them with the spiral bits) and I'm going to try the ball nose later on this week. Appreciate the advice, will recode with 3/8's tooling and let you know. On the other hand, just went to HD, who knew it how hard it is to get full thread bolts locally now a days!

Ger thanks man, I was kinda down tonight having so much vibration probs. with my router. I said screw it put everything back together and wanted to test the 3/8" regardless. Drew up a square and a circle and programmed it, put the 3/8" bit in with 1/8" passes and man am I amazed. It cut the wood like butter, literally NO bumps on the edges. I paid like $65 for the whiteside bit but it was worth every penny, it's solid carbide and sharp. I got a little chatter (not much) going around some edges but isn't that normal with conventional cutting? It cuts end grain exceptionally well, I can't even see my step downs on my tool path. Can't imagine how much better it will be with a straight rod in place :). Time to cut some more stuff. Pics later :)

No, chatter is not normal with conventional cutting. Chatter is caused by vibrations, from either the machine or the workpiece. Fwiw, I almost always conventional cut. I only climb cut when I have to to prevent tearout. For wood, conventional cutting should give better quality cuts and longer tool life.

You might want to try these bits. If you get 2, you get a 30% discount. So the #1245 3/8" bit which is $61 each is only $43 if you buy two. And you can get them resharpened from them as well for $14.

http://www.vortextool.com/standard/productDetail.cfm?groupID=259

I'm replacing both of my x and y lead rods I believe they are defective and are pretty bent. That SHOULD clear up some of it. I just cut a sign/plaque (extremely detailed) for some friends (wedding) and it came out quite well. Some jerky motions here or there but overall it is cool. The 3/8" bit I bought sounds as though it's vibrating but it doesn't feel like it, is it normal to get that grinding sound? I'm not as familiar with spiral bits and they are new to me entirely. From what I understand the bits make much different sounds than straight bits because they are grinding the wood and blowing it out as apposed to just cutting it like traditional straight bits. Correct me if I'm wrong though. I will check out vortex, too bad I already dropped the cash :(, but either way the 3/8" cuts significantly better than the 1/4", less vibration, cleaner cut and sounds a lot better when cutting. It's a learning process, appreciate all the advice though.

Spirals should be smoother and quieter, because they slice the wood. If it sound like it's vibrating, try removing it and reinserting in the collet and see if it gets better. It could be in a little crooked. Also, in case you didn't know, never bottom out a bit in the collet. It won't tighten correctly.

It only makes the sound on one edge and