I am looking into purchasing a plasma table. If you could tell me the pros and cons of this machinery. Also wanting to know what products to look further into and which to avoid. And also where maybe to find used ones. Thank you.

Give Torchmate a call or check out thier web site http://torchmate.com/ . The tech support is free and when updated versions of software there is no fee.

As I read and investigate I am finding out that torchmate is a pretty reputable machine. I think I am leaning that way. Plus they dist. close to where I'am located. I want to thank all for your responses.

The good part of a Torchmate is that it uses conventional motor drivers and parallel port PC interface so you could elect to use some other software controller software (eg MACH3) and take advantage of all the built in plasma feature and lower cost THC options. They of course would prefer you buy into their total solution but at least there are options if you later decide you want something else.

Some offerings like the PlasmaCAM and DynaTorch are proprietary and you have to use their motion software/controller. This may not sound like a bad idea but then you find other third party options closed to you. You live with the features as they are or scrap the machine

It's kinda like buying a car that uses custom sized tires, battery, wiper blades, etc and having no place to get replacements but from the factory. When you only have one source you only have one price.

I purchased a Plasma Cam 6 months ago, I have not had any problems with tech support. The table is on the light duty side, I have cut 3/4" on many occasions. My biggest problem is the way the torch is held: it is hard to get square and when the table sets the torch height the torch is pushed up in the holder. Also it uses a hand held torch. I have a Hyperthem Powermax 1250 which I am very pleased with and would recommend to anyone.

Matt: How does PlasmaCAM do their torch height control and initial height sensing? What about pierce control and arc sensing?

I guess as long as you are happy with the software and hardware solution that is all that matters. They have sold a boatload of those machines (much like ShopBot has routers) and it shows the power of advertising and marketing.

Hey Torchhead I talked to the guy a Torchmate about a Demo and was totally impressed with it. I have a appointment he asked me some questions about what I wanted to do and with the machine and he worked me up a quote and for about the same price as the Plasma cam I can get the Torchmate table with a Thermal Dynamics Cut master 151 and lead. Since I have to look into a new computer they offer a Dell already configured to the table. I must say impressed. Thanks for your help and info. :)

Now, tell them you want to run the table with MACH3 and an integrated Torch Height Controller (for MACH3), You don't need their control software (Flashcam with proprietary card) and watch their hair catch on fire!!:D

Torchhead: You enter the thickness of the material. The machine lowers the torch until it touches the material then moves up to the pierce height the operator specifies, once it starts cutting it uses the arc voltage to adjust the cutting height.

Anyone know anything about EZ-Router Plasma Sys?

Upss!!! I Think That I Have A Problem, I Bought An Old Plasma Table And Not Have Software, The Control Works Only Essi Codes "bad News", And Now I Need A Software, Exist Some Software That Generates These Codes? Can The Mach3 Work?

I Appreciate Your Comments!!!

Anyone know anything about EZ-Router Plasma Sys?

Yes. They build a rugged table, they have good customer support , they have good internal technical people , they use open components and software (MACH3, Gecko drives,etc) and they use the best Digital THC on
the market...ours

Tom Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

NBE, as you do your home work may I suggest Dynatorch. If your time is worth anything please consider this machine.

Tech support is by far the most valuable part of service and having to wait for a call back or email is very frustrating. Dynatorchs tech support is A+++

Please keep us informed of your progress!

Luck,

Tom

Thank you Torchhead, I was going to call them and ask who's THC sys. they are using. I would love to see one in action. I live in the Oklahoma City area.

I have really been corted by DynaCNC but have a concern about the aluminum table. I have my Quote's and I have them at about the same $$$ for the 5x10.
Is this a flip of the coin time?? on which Sys to get??
Any feed back would help.

Thank you, PlasmaGuy
I have looked them over, The unit looks very good but arnt they a closed system?
Michael

bbq:

Join our support forum on Yahoo at CandCNCSupport. I answer questions about our products and others if I know the answers. You can see how the electronics and THC are supported. Most of the questions are "how to" about plasma. Also there are users on there with experience with the THC and drive electronics that are used on both of the tables you are considering. One has a Practical (groan) table that we totally retrofitted and now runs correctly. He goes by the name "greybeard" and lives in Tulsa. You might contact him.
Plasma cutting (correctly) is more complex that it first looks.

You are close enough it the EZ-Router shop to pay them a visit. They are about 90 miles from Sherman-Dension area (where I hang out) in East Texas.
Give them a call and talk to John.

DynaCNC makes a good table. The aluminum extrusions are a lot stronger than you would expect. They have tables in commercial shops cutting 3/4" material on a daily basis. It all depends on the bracing.

As I have stated I prefer a system that has options that go beyond one source. When you get into a proprietary solution like the PlasmaCAM and Dynatorch where you HAVE to use their control software and their electronics and their motors, and you arrive at a point where it won't do what you want, or they decide to start building parts for Humvees (strange things happen in the business world) then it effects your life as well.

Both DynaCNC and EZ-Router use open source systems. You can get replacement parts from dozens of sources and external support.

Support comes in two forms: Short term and long term. Getting a user setup and running correctly is important and counts for a lot. Later down the road, if there is a problem (mechanical, electronic, software) you need to know the company will be there. If you have more than one option then you have more than one source and more than one price.

We are close to release on a new 32 function handheld Pendant/Handwheel that will work with any table running MACH3. We also have a 16 function control pendant (November) that will plug into any of our MP1000 products (including the THC) that will make running you machine off-keyboard a LOT easier.

Why MACH3?

1. 5000+ users
2. Dedicated development team fixes problems in hours not weeks or months
3. Very active support forum
4. Open API for third party add-ons
5. Integrated toolpath and THC functions make doing the precise sequence easy and adds things like velocity planning to the plasma cut process (Anti-Dive on corners) and auto-pierce delay based on Arc Transfer from the plasma just part of the feature set.
6. Lower cost structure.
7. Supported by several CAM programs including SheetCAM, BobCAD, OneCNC VCarve and others.

Tom Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

Hello BBQ,

Yes, Dynatorch uses a closed system as refered to by Mr. Caudle.

Please don't let the term "closed system" disuade you from buying this platform.

Are you planning on building your system or buying as system that is ready to run?

There are several Dynatorch users on this forum that studied long and hard on whether the open or closed system was right for them. I would suggest you PM them and pick their brains.

Lower cost structure is one thing to consider but what is your time worth spent while figuring out whats wrong with your THC that day?

Okay let me try to state this another way: The choice of a proprietary (closed) system) or non-proprietary (Open) system is not about the chioce of building your own system or one that is ready to run. The open systems from DynaCNC, EZ-Router, K2, and many others are all "ready to run" and they support their own products (some better than others). That is NOT the point. It boils down to deciding if you want to be limited to just one source of parts and support and feel they will be in business as long as you own your machine or if you would like to have the option of
A: finding someone else that can fix or repair your machine or sell you parts to do that.
B: Being able to get answers and support at times after 5:00 PM or on the weekends.
C: having the advantage to change parts of the machine/software that may not be what you want with others, rather than wait for one company with one programmer to fix your problem.

It has less to do with cost than the choices of the table manufacturer. In the case of PlasmaCAM they have their foot on your throat with their software/hardware/controller solution. I use them because they have been doing it longer and have history. The biggest owner gripe is that when something breaks they charge you to tell you what it is, they charge you double for the proprietary part, then they charge you again to support it after you fixed it. You don't own the software license and if you sell the table it will cost the new owner hundreds to get it registered again.

Let's wait until one of those "Smart Motors" takes a dump out of warranty and see how you might feel about the pricing and cost of down time to get another.

The worst time to give advice about marriage is right after the wedding. Give it few years and the perspective may change.....

I would also like a chance to chime in on this subject. What Mr. Caudle is referring to by an open system here is what I like to refer to as the "chinese menu" theory. That is YOU the end user will pick something from column A, then pick somthing from column B, and so on, then you have to make it all work together. There is NO system around where you DONT have to depend on somebody for something. With the open system you are depending on several somebodies for several somethings. Now I will not speak for Plasmacam or any other manufacturer of any closed system, but I will speak for Dynatorch. Yes we are a proprietary system, but we take everything from the chinese menu and make it work for you. You do not have to make it work on your own.Dynatorch released 122 upgrades in 2005. Most of them were customer suggested upgrades that were released within 48 hours upon reciept of the initial suggestion. We supply tech support free of charge for the lifetime of the product. We do that 7 days a week, until 9 p.m. at night. We have doubled our growth every year we have been in buisness, with customers all over the world. We are not going anywhere. The reason we will always be around is that we stay on top of the technology. That brings me to Mach 3. Im sure that this software is good for very many applications , but I dont feel it is all that great for plasma. First of all it is strictly for stepper motors. There is no closed loop servo motor feedback there at all. Dont get me wrong, steppers are good in certain applications, just not plasma cutting. Now back in 1985 when steppers were all we had, we made them work. This is 2006 lots of progress has been made in plasma cutting, so why continue to use steppers? Another thing Ive noticed about Mach 3 is that there is no provision for arc transfer. As an end user, wouldnt you want your cutting software to be able to recognize that your plasma generator has established an arc? Wouldnt you then want your cutting software to know if that arc had failed for whatever reason, so that it could stop your gantry from moving? Seems to me that that type of feature could save an end user alot of time and frustration in trying to pick up where you left off. Sounds like a great feature.....thats why we have it. The Mach 3 software also employs very small visual display screens for plasma cutting. I dont know about you , but make my display screens big. Let me just say this: Read what Mr. Caudle has to say, but remember there are two sides to every coin. Go to www.dynatorch.com (http://www.dynatorch.com) and check us out. See the other side of the coin. Then you as the customer decide which side of that coin is the shiny side.
Thanks
Greg
www.dynatorch.com (http://www.dynatorch.com)

Thanks for the input guys. I'am looking for a turn-key sys.
Any thoughts about cutting 22ga SS?
Thank you,
Michael

Greg your ignorance of MACH3 shows.

1. They DO support Arc Transfer. In fact there is a dedicated pin (called Torch ON) for arc good. Movement is held until a valid Arc Good signal is received. We ship a current sense transformer with every THC to allow ANY plasma unit to have that feature. Out THC Sensor card has isolated circuitry to use the current sense transfomer and feed the signal back to MACH. MACH can work with plasma units that have the signal or ones that don't.

2. The Screens in MACH3 are totally customizable. You can make DRO's the size of watermelons. You can add any button and any button image you want. The screen layout program is easy to use and free. We ship custom profiles and screens with all our units. I have done custom screens for various customers and OEM's

3. I have worked with Art at MACH and Les at SheetCAM for the last two years to put together the perfect plasma cutting environment. Those products work with our MP1000-THC Digital THC to control all of the aspects of plasma cutting. To say MACH3 is not a good platform for plasma is totally false. The fact is that it is probably the best, and supports things like Anti-Dive because the Z axis is always under control and the look ahead part of the program can integrate with the THC movements. You typically have to get into really high dollar plasma cutting systems to find where the THC is truly integrated with the motion controller software. Things like pierce height, inital cut height, lead-in/outs, feedrate, etc are part of the tool definition and post processor. SheetCAM costs $159.00 and supports all of that (and more)

4. To say MACH3 is just for steppers is once again incorrect. It is limited to step & direction output but modern servo loops are closed at the hardware layer (e.g. The motor drive). Using Geckos, Rutex, Tecknix or others the servo's are controlled by the drive (kinda like a Smart Drive?). If you strap a Gecko on the side of a servo motor you can call it a Smart Drive but it uses S&D instead of a serial protocol.

They (MACH) have recently introduced plug-in's that allow third party vendors (like me) to write interfaces for supporting products. We already have a low cost 20 function handwheel/pendant using a plug-in and have three new products that will be out before the end of the year.

Okay, lets not call it "open" source. Let's call it non-proprietary. That means I can buy replacement parts from other sources. That means if my CAM software is not doing what I want I can switch without throwing out the whole drive system. That means if I lose a motor driver I don't have to replace an entire motor. I can even change brands of one drive if I want. You keep trying to equate this to a DIY project where the builder has to make all the decisons and without your expert guidance they are destined to slog about to make it work. While we have well over a hundred DIY guys using the MACH3/SheetCAM and MP1000-THC there are more "commercial" machines out there using the same formula. The customer can rely on the vendor of a complete system to support it and to have engineered it to provide the functions they need. They also can get ideas and support from other sources if the fancy strikes them.

You analysis of stepper vs servo is flawed. Each has it's place and properly designed stepper systems coupled with modern microstepping drives don't lose position and are simplier to implement. For high speed low torque applications like plasma, steppers can be cost effective. Do I like servo's? You bet. I have several tables and I have used both (sometimes on the same machine). My production plasma table is servo (dual drive on the gantry) but has a stepper Z. To equate steppers as some old technology VS servo is misleading. Stepper motors are still being made and are better than older ones. Stepper drives are still being designed and improved.

I just got an e-mail from a PlasmaCAM user with two pages of a sad tale of frustration. They were unhappy with how the Plasmacam software worked and when they called BobCAD and asked "will your software run my machine" they were told "yes" and then sold a $850.00 package for over $3000.00. Obviously BobCad would not "run" their machine since the PlasmaCAM controller does not take native g-code; and now they can't get BobCad to do anything, the CC company won't reverse the transaction because PlasmaCAM will not make a formal statement that the software will not work with their machine, and the customers looks like they are out 3 grand.

This is not about how PlasmaCAM or DynaTorch runs their business or supports their cusomers. It's about the perils of dealing with proprietary systems.

Now that you have the Rest of the Story, I agree. Go look at both sides of the coin and don't be surprised if the shine lives on the other side.

Tom Caudle
www.CandCNC.com
www.FourhillsDesigns.com [commercial decorative plasma cutting]

Torchhead,
Seems you are all about Mach 3 and nothing else. As well as anyone who makes a ATHC other then yours is not up to par. I do agree sheetcam is an awesome system and that Les is very quick on the ball for help. Especially in my case. All of my issues were resolved with Les and Mike from Dynatorch today.


Ed

Ah, Ed you figured me out!

Yes, I am "about" MACH and SheetCAM. Wanna know why?

I spent weeks working with Les at SheetCAM when he was developing the software to put in all of the specialized plasma features including the piercing moves (plunge rate, delays, pierce height, initial cut height, etc) and the testing and additions of things like smart lead-ins. I did it from a somewhat selfish standpoint because I wanted a low cost plasma cutting solution for myself. All I got out of it was one free copy for myself (which is fine with me). I have promoted his software because I think it is it best solution for CAM for shape cutting. I have taught classes on using SheetCAM.

Rewind about 2 1/2 years to MACH 2. I once again spent months helping Art design and test internal plasma functions in MACH (including the Arc Good pause Greg claimed was such a good feature, and that MACH did not have). Since I designed and built the first THC (THC300) below 400.00 and advised Art how to integrate things into the software, I know the operation intimately. Art and I continue to work on features for MACH some of which are associated with plasma and some not.

I have never said that other ATHC's are sub-par to mine. In fact I give links to other manufactures of THC's (or ATHC's or VTHC's as they are called) on my website and give the customer the information they need to openly compare.

As for my response to the Dynatorch Greg: When I see mis-information, incorrect and misleading statements on a public forum, I will point those out (and continue to do so). I prefer to stick to the facts and there were a lot of things I could have said (oh, I WAS tempted!). There is a difference in being ignorant and being stupid. Ignorance can be fixed.

If you notice, I don't jump over on your Dynatorch groupie threads and deride their product. This thread started out about PlasmaCAM.

If I can help someone in the plasma cutting process I do so. I moderate my own support group [CandCNCSupport] as well as the CNCMANUALPLASMACUTTING and the CCED (CADCAMEDMDRO) yahoo groups.

If you are into decorative plasma cutting let me turn you on to another self-serving product (yes, I sell it). CorelDraw is an awesome drawing and vector editing program that makes dealing with vector objects, vector clipart and pure text easier than CAD. It's big limitation in the past has been it's poor DXF export filter. We have introduced a plug-in for Corel (ver 12 and later) that resolves that issue and exports DXF with full curve and circle support. It works seamlessly with SheetCAM. I have been using it in our cutting business now for months. Low cost versions of Corel 12 are out there for about $79.00.

So far I have you on SheetCAM....come on over to the "dark side" (:-o)

Torchhead,
Yes we use the DXF converter for Corel we got from you. It does work very good. And sheetcam does great for me personally, Ive used it non-stop building nested projects since I bought a full copy. I also joined the sheetcam yahoo group and Les has been great with a few bugs I had, turned out I had a couple settings wrong. Between Corel-Sheetcam and a learning curve things are going smooth. I am also thinking of building another machine since I purchased alot of gear reductions and rack from the good guys over at Ez-router. Thats for another day.

Happy Cutting All!!!

Ed

Hello All,

It is very disappointing in a debate rebuttal when the person you are debating with throws words like ignorant around so carelessly. To me that is the mark of a weaker argument. In my profound ignorance, allow me to list a few items which are incontravertable.



1. Software like Wincnc, Mach3, and Flashcut were never designed specifically for plasma cutting and must be adapted.Dynatorch was designed specifically for this field and I defy any of those brands to match the features we offer shown clearly on the features area of our website.


2. Mr. Caudle likes to refer to our system as " closed architechture" when in truth the system, when stripped down to its bare bones, without any of the extra bells and whistles is quite simply COMPLETE architechture. The software, mechanical and electrical aspects of the Dynatorch product are designed to work together in complete concert. Our customers need to come to only one vendor should they have an issue with our product. They do not need to be responsible for making separate sub-assemblies from different vendors work properly in a plasma cutting environment.


3. Since each item was designed to work together properly, we do not require any external gadgetry or workarounds. This makes the automated plasma cutting process effortless for our customers.


4. We do not use stepper motors. We use servos for satisfactory operation. Anybody that would imply that a stepper motor could provide equal service when compared to the service provided by a servo motor is not being completely honest. Quite simply, steppers lose torque and power as rpm increases. This means you have less power for the plasma cutting process, less power for rapid traverse moves, and less power for rapid directional changes.This power loss is amplified when stepper motor micro stepping technology is employed. A review of servo vs. stepper technology is posted on our website with appropriate footnotes and bibliographical source notes from very prestigious technological reference sites. Stepper motors are utilized because they are cheap, and produce max profitability for the seller.Customers can go to competitive vendors such as Lockformer, Multicam, and many many other very expensive systems and inquire as to how many of these high end suppliers use steppers to drive their systems.

5. Mr. Caudle implies that utilizing encoders on steppers somehow makes them equivellent to encoder based servos on a closed loop system. For the reasons cited in item four putting an encoder on a stepper system is like putting a racing saddle on a mule......in the end you still have a mule.


Mr. Caudle, in the most real of realities it is our respective customers that will make the choice as to whether your architechture or ours is superior. To date we have been very sucessful, and we intend to maintain that success with ongoing new and exciting technology. We at Dynatorch do hope you can stick around, as we absolutely enjoy the competition.
Greg

Ignorance: Lack of knowledge. There are a lot of things I am ignorant of and will admit to but I know how to fix it.

You listen too much to your internal engineers. There appears to be the classic NIH syndrome.

You don't know much about MACH or it's capabilities. I agree about WINCNC and Flashcut (since I have sold retrofits to customers that own both those systems). They were just never crafted with plasma in mind.

MACH3 HAS THC FUNCTIONS BUILT INTO THE CORE ENGINE. If you would like I will direct you to the MACH3 Manual section on THC. Also the entire front of our 46 page manual covers MACH3 and THC operation.

I won't argue the technicalities of stepper VS servos. It would take a small book and on other lists it has been gone over many times. I have years of experience with both. It never was the source of rancor anyway. You made the statement that MACH only worked with steppers and I corrected you on that mis-statement.

So for the record. Is your servo loop closed in the software (where positional errors are sensed and corrected) rather than the driver electronics, and if so how in heck do you get loop response of multiple motors on a serial link?

I have been involved in Electronics (EE since 1973) and spent time in power design and power control (including motor drives and switching power supplies) and then software design and later systems integration and IT. I fixed CNC controls back when they used paper tape. I have been doing CNC plasma cutting since 2001 (when my dot-com job left me "available".)

You need to go back and read more closely about what I said about closed loop. I agree that encoders on steppers using conventional loop gain feedback techniques is lame but it can (and has) been done correctly.

You are spouting marketing stuff and it has little basis in reality. If you really want to get in a feature VS cost debate then let's do it. Your machine running your THC and software VS the MACH3/SheetCAM/Mp1000 combo.

List every feature you can think of and the cost of your solution and I can respond in kind. I know...let's do a comparison chart. If you want I'll even construct the chart.

Forgive me for not responding to the growth rate, and other red herring arguments. They have little to do with the core issues. I'm not a business rookie either but this is not the venue to discuss business 101.

Nice read.

Where is this comparison chart thing? :)

Apples, you trying to start a cat fight? (wedge)

Okay: here is my start at a chart:

http://www.CandCNC.com/THCCompareChart.htm

This was facinating. Had forgotten about this thread!

I dont have a clue about core engines and servo loops, but it looks to me like if (when) I eventually reach the point of a plasma CNC machine, it will be between DYNATorch (Do you sell parts/software for a diy machine, or only the entire setup?) and Mach3/SheetCAM. Please keep this friendly discussion going. Im learning a lot. :D

Does anyone have a link to a comprehensive thread or source for the pros/cons of steppers vs servos in use on a plasma system please?

Pros: Steppers are cheaper and have good torque at lower RPM. They work well when run with bipolar microstepping drives (actually behave like brushless AC motors). You can get 34 frame 640 OZ-IN steppers (new) for about $150.00 each. Much less for used or older types. They can be connected direct to rack and pinion but a 3:1 belt reduction is recommended. They don't have brushes and you don't have to worry about PID loops and tuning and noise on your encoder lines. They also will not self-destruct if they get stalled (like hitting the end of the rack).

Cons: Steppers lose torque with RPM. If they are run outside their limits or encounter a motion problem they will loose steps and you won't know about it in subtle conditions. Steppers are normally run close to their limits (RPM and torque) and because of the inverse torque curve have little or no reserve to tap if the conditon calls for it.

For plasma you need speed for cutting and there are no cutting forces involved so ususally the need for more torque is not an issue. Torque is handy on quick direction changes but typically that is done at lower speeds so stepper torque is greater when it is needed. Hundreds (if not thousands) of designs use steppers and they are still being used today. They are no older technology than DC motors (Servos) and the current drives (see thread on new Gecko 203 drives) are the latest technology.

You will get faster, smoother motion out of a Servo system and it will compensate for lost position within the lock range. They will lose position if the encoder signals are compomised, they will "run away" (go screaming off at full speed in one direction) if an encoder wire comes off ; the resulting crash will be impressive and expensive. Typical servo designs need to be geared down (especially on rack and pinion) since the RPM of a servo can be 3000 and full speed direct connected moves end up being close to the escape velocity of the earth! (e.g a 1" dia pinion moves 3.14" per rev. At 3000 REV/min that is 9424 IPM (157 inches per second).

There have been endless discussions on the CNC technical boards about servo VS stepper. IF you want an earfull post the question on either the CADCAMEDMDRO (CCED) Group or the DIY-CNC group.

we have a 5x 10 table at work. if u don't wont to d any kind of mance at all just use i would go with timing betls with V rollers ( i think that what there called). but when u stat pushing the flex really bad any think over 125ipm in fine work dose not work but on big stuff works grat but i think if we did it agin i would get soild drive e.g ballscews/ rack and pion.
p.s get hight control it really time consuming to sit there and move the toch up and down cus your plate is woraping cus of the heat.

25506
Sorry, didn't quite catch that last part.
Tom, I thought you brought up some good arguments. Although it was getting pretty deep in here.
I think that you have raised some excellent points as far as the proprietary systems, and I am quite interested to see what Dynatorch or Plasmacam have to say about it, at least beyond the arguments they have presented. A quick fill out of your chart would be informative and helpful to everyone.

LOL :D. I was thinking the same thing. ;) Sounds like me at the end of a good night out!

LOL :D. I was thinking the same thing. ;) Sounds like me at the end of a good night out!

25507 + keyboard = Diarmaid ??
Careful with those 220 circuits J/K

25508

I hate to wax so technical but sometimes there is no way to avoid it. I just got my beautiful, full color, illustrated catalog from PlasmaCAM. I have to take my hat off to their marketing. WOW. I KNOW about their short comings and even then it gets me excited; then you realize they are selling a "vision" rather than a machine. Of the 24 full color pages there is a small panel OF "Specifications" with 10 items including Power required, Weight and Dimensions. Absolutely no information of any value about their "Digital Height Control" and there appears to be no controls related to that. No real info on their magic software that they claim "automatically prepares complex drawings for cutting". There is page after page of beautifully photographed stuff you can make with their machine.

There are a lot of aspects about cutting metal with plasma that just get ignored. It is only after the machine is paid for and delivered do you find out things like pierce height, Arc Good, lead-ins, THC and other technical aspects make the difference between making parts and making scrap.

The concept you can import a photo, hit a button and cut it out is like saying all you have to do to fly a helicopter is crank up the motor and pull up on the stickey thingy.

When you are standing in the empty, dimly lit shop filled with plasma smoke and dust that marketing guy is sitting at home watching TV and eating Ding-Dongs.

I spend hours a day talking and e-mailing Hobby CNC guys and I know that electronics and techno-speak make them go numb. I try my best to explain things in terms we can all understand.

I can't tell you how many guys (and a couple of ladies) I have talked to that are stunned about how difficult it is to start turning out production.

The first thing that gets them is that the sellers of the equipment "assume" that since you can spell CNC and can write a healthy check then you are a CNC expert and understand all of the aspects of the type cutting you are going to do. Over 70% of plasma issues are plasma/operator based (what size tip, what is the best feedrate, how much slag should I get, etc).

The next thing is that the development of a toolpath (turning an idea into a piece of cut metal) is not as slam dunk as you would expect. Just the fact that you better be pretty good with a computer and graphics is glossed over. I call it the "what do I do now" syndrome. You have the table, you have your plasma cutter you have things setup as best you can determine....now what?

It makes me tired to see marketing hype thrown out as technical specs. If you say the same thing often enough it will start to resemble fact.

Sorry, about the ramble. Just finished my third cup of coffee. My in-laws are in for the weekend so my mood is less than chipper!

"220, 221, whatever it takes"

I hear ya on the marketing skillz of Plasmacam. I got that DVD and after a couple minutes watching it, my wife happened to sit down too. By the end of the DVD, even she was ready to write the check!

Luckly, I found this forum and decided not to buy from them.

Although I've since then met a local high school teacher that has one in his class and they use the crap out it! and he loves it! He's even planning to buy it from the school once he retires. And he claims he's never done any modifications to it. He did have some issues in the first few months though, but they were handled good according to him.

1" plate hahahahahaha!. We have a customer that cuts 3/4" on a daily basis. They started out with a HT 1650.....just upgraded to a TD 200A unit. They had too much flare with the 100A unit. I think the catalog people really know how to touch up a photo!

My shop/office is 15 ft from my house. Way out in the country. Most of the time it's wonderful. I spend years driving 120 miles round trip to a management job in Dallas. Now I seldom have to leave the Ranch. Only time it gets dicey is when relatives show up!

As for the teacher that loves his PC machine.....He got paid to make it work and for his learning curve. Also companies tend to take better care of schools and big corporate customers where there might be repeat business or references.

Even the Ford Pinto had hundreds of happy customers......

3/4 is almost believeable, but you know it has some bevel. The pic I have in the catalog shows 1" steel being cut with a Thermal Dynamics with no bevel, at least none that is visible. Aaaahhhh, marketing.
I keep meaning to stop by your place of business, you aren't but about 30 minutes away from me, Tom. Maybe I will when I pick up my THC.:)

Just give us a call. 9033642740

25507 + keyboard = Diarmaid ??


lol. Yeah that pretty much says it! :o

Fellas

I appreciate all the input you guys do here. It sure makes all the different manufacturers easier to compare. I am too looking to buy a 4 x 8 machine in the next few weeks. I was stuck on dynaCNC, then went to torchmate, now I think DynaTorch is the answer, But it uses their own software. I seem hear very few complaints about this machine. I have talked to Walt over there and he really seems to know whats this is all about. Is Dynatorch the best option? Is smoke a dust/debris an issue? Is the dust collecor table worth the extra $2850? Anyone in the Cleveland area have one of these machines to look at? Keep up the good work guys.

Thanks
Tom

Hello Tom,
Smoke and dust can be an issue. Without some way to trap it, it will leave a thin black film all over everything in your shop. We do offer one solution, which you have mentioned in your previous post. We fell it is absolutely worth it, but several people have used other alternatives. Im sure that several people on this site could help you with ideas on how to filter the smoke and dust. Our software is among the best thats out there and I would be happy to provide you with a list of customers that would tell you about their own experiences with our product. Some of these folks have used our competitors systems previously. Call me at 1-877-260-2390, or e-mail me greg@dynatorch.com for the references and to further discuss your needs


Thanks,
Greg

Fellas

I appreciate all the input you guys do here. It sure makes all the different manufacturers easier to compare. >

Thanks
Tom

Tom: It's fairly obvious that I don't advocate proprietary drive systems, but if you are determined to head down that road then the DynaTorch is the best in that group.

Plasma cutting is one of the nastiest, dirtyest forms of cutting (other than high speed routing of MDF) you can do. The best solution is a constant level water table that allows the back of the material to actually touch the water. That solves the sparks, smoke and a lot of the warping and discolorization problems (on stainless). Short of that, you really need a water table below the work and a form of smoke removal that sucks the smoke down.

I have come to the conclusion that the cheapest way is to enclose the table in a "room" made of 6mil plastic sheeting and vent that room with airflow (giant vent-a-hood). I still think a water table makes sense even in the enclosed room.

I think you could devise an enclosure with steel tubing (or even 2 X 4's) with a draw curtain to allow loading material.

I am even considering a way to have a couple of video cameras in the room (maybe one on the gantry(?)) so I don't have to be in there at all.

We are working on an Ethernet "remote console" add-in for MACH3 that would let you do all control functions from dozens or even hundreds of feet away. That will only be available for MACH3 driven machines.

Tom Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

Hey Tom and Tom,
The water table is a great idea. I actually just helped another business owner here locally make one for his Tracker table. I have a 8ft pressbrake and shear here so was pretty easy to fabricate in 4 hours. We made a simple V frame longer on one end for easy draining, sheethed the inside with 14 gauge galvanized, seam sealed the joints and put it on wheels to move in and out from the table(when drained), then we had the inside sprayed with Rhino lining. All in all cost him $325 and works great NO LEAKS thankfully. I have a 24" axial paint booth fan I use on my table and the sides are enclosed so for now I'm good with mine, it blows out of the wall of my shop. Just thought I'd throw that in the loop.

PS:Tom, got all the issues with Corel and your DXF converter all squared away. Thanks for all the help.

torchead is right i would say that the extra money spent on the water table is worth all of it i have one. the only thing some time the air when cooling the tip will splash the water on the pice but that can be wiped off. we mostley cut Al and well i would say that it cut the smoke and what every othere hamfull tockens that are created by the cutting by 80 %. one still need a fan to suck out the bad air.

I have several customers cutting steel and stainless with the material partially submerged (maybe a light film of water over the top). The normal plasmas we use will not cut under water but they will blow a small amount of water out of the way. According to these shops the cuts are dross free, the material does not tend to warp as much, and the stainless does not discolor from heat. They built a water tank with a float valve and set the water level to touch the back of the material.

Btw mog5858: What is a hamfull tocken ? (Just kidding)

Another secret for cutting and cleaning steel (and never having to grind the dross off) is acid. Ask me how (:-)

Tom Caudle
(aka Torchhead)
www.CandCNC.com

What is a hamfull tocken ? (Just kidding)
Another secret for cutting and cleaning steel Ask me how (:-)
T.C. HOW???

Those 'hamfull tockens' are only in certain areas of the country. :)

Here we have harmful toxins to be concerned about. :(

I have a vat (300 Gallon Poly tank) of dilute HCL. It's about 10:1 from standard Muratic (pool acid available at all home improvement stores). When a piece comes off the table (I use standand 11 ga steel with the mill scale) it goes in the tank on a hanger (made from old welding rods) and stays overnight. It comes out virtually slag free and smooth etched. A good rinse and IMMEDIATE dry with a towel and into a heated area (in Texas 8 months a year that is just handing in the sun!). It can then go straight to powder coat.

I used to chip and hammer off any slag and grind the edges. If my torch is setup right, slag is minimal so the acid etch takes care of that.

My tank is setup to take several full 3' X 3' pieces or one 4' By 4' at an angle. I bought the tank for 35.00 at a surplus sale.

Caution: Acid is nasty stuff to handle. Wear rubber gloves and eye protection when handling the undiluted stuff. Also be aware that the fumes from the tank will rust just about anything. It will kill your tools and other metal objects if placed inside your shop. A cover for the tank will help but it will still rust steel in about 10 minutes!

Also be aware that the fumes from the tank will rust just about anything. It will kill your tools and other metal objects if placed inside your shop. A cover for the tank will help but it will still rust steel in about 10 minutes!

Whats your tank made from?

and

You bought it at a surplus sale, what was its 'intended' purpose? (ie: What type of tank is it?)

'Thanks.' ;) :hehe:

The Plasma Cam system now comes with a one-year warranty and three years of over the phone tech support. Tech Support Dept is very knowledge able about the system and software and are more than willing to assist you with any problems you may encounter, whether it be software or machine related.
Parts are always in stock and ship next day air to you via ups.
<O:pOur system comes with THC what Plasma Cam calls Digital Height control. Basically it senses the arch voltage that is being put out by the plasma cutter and maintains a consistent height through out the cutting process.
<O:pPlasma Cam does not charge a transfer of ownership fee when buying a used machine.
<O:pPlasma Cam has designed and created a windows based user friendly software for the Plasma Cam system. With this software you can design and create your image form start to cut path and also have options to save and export files as .dxf or even g-code.

<O:pFor more information call Patrick at PlasmaCam or check out the website www.plasmacam.com (http://www.plasmacam.com)

[QUOTE=Torchhead;218486]I have a vat (300 Gallon Poly tank) of dilute HCL. It's about 10:1 from standard Muratic (pool acid available at all home improvement stores).


When you say 10:1, are you saying you only use 1 part of muriatic to 9 parts water?
Just curious, because I use 100% muriatic for all my acid dipping. Makes hot roll plate come out smooth as cold roll, with no black coating, or anything. It will rust the heck out of anything around it though. I cap the drum off after depositing or removing parts.
The gentleman who does all my chroming loves my parts, because he hardly has to do any cleanup polishing before going into the vat. When I send him parts to chrome, he generally cuts me about 25-50% off, depending.

Yes the 10:1 is from the dilute HCL (muratic). It takes longer but does the same thing and if you spill some on your hand you don't run screaming to the water hose! I have used the straight stuff on small parts I wanted to get done quickly but the fumes are nasty and the ability of the fumes and mist to rust steel is astounding. I just hang my cuts in the vat overnight and usually have little or no clean-up to deal with (and like you say the powder coaters and plating guys can skip the cleaning steps.

ok, I see where you are coming from on that one. You are right, that stuff is a bit nasty. I have splashed a bit of it on me over the years, and it takes a second to start burning, but when it does, you will invent a new diety to pray to.

1" plate hahahahahaha!. We have a customer that cuts 3/4" on a daily basis. They started out with a HT 1650.....just upgraded to a TD 200A unit. They had too much flare with the 100A unit. I think the catalog people really know how to touch up a photo!


Here is an accual 1" thick piece cut with the PlasmaCAM. It is done with a Powermax 1250 HAND TORCH.

27574

I do not doubt the ability of the Plasmacam to move in the present shape. I am quite sure it is fully capable of moving a torch or whatever tool needed in a programmed path adequately and accurately. I just question the picture provided.
just my opinion, of course.

Sorry, I was imformed that it was accually cut with a powermax1250.

I have seen 2 1/2" steel cut with high definition plasma. It gives straight sides and smooth cuts. It also costs 10 times as much to buy one. I'm not sure what it has to do with the type cutting the average user of PlasmaCAM or any other lower cost table does.

My shop builds new replacement parts for the underground coal mining industry. I currently am spending a small fortune on larger CNC burned parts. & that will continue Mainly because I don't have room to store inventory on the sheet steel. 2 years ago the steel supplier I use spent mega$ on a new table & plasma setup. They tried forever to get it to give good square cuts across the cut edge. My salesman informs me they finally gave up & use it for nothing thicker that 3/8" if bevel on the cut edge is a problem for the part. Word from them is it will cut square but at slower speeds than Ox/acet., especially above 1/2"

yeah plasma has in many cases been very very over rated for some situations.

I mean how much cheaper is an oxy set up?

How many oxy torches can you run on the same gantry, for the same price as a high definiton plasma?

Oxy can cut from 5mm up to 2000mm, yes 2000mm.

So in many ways oxy will have a definant advantage over plasma. It all comes down to the bloke selling you the machine and setup.

Apples
Australia

Sorry my bad. The part was cut using a Hypertherm Powermax 1250 Hand Torch.

The aluminum table is every bit as stout as a steel tubing table. They have units out in commercial shops cutting 3/4" plate on a daily basis. Only if you start to compare a welded table built with I beams and slinging around a huge gantry does the material start to matter. The 8020 rails that a lot of the builders use are extrusions and per pound are stiffer than steel.

Watched a show on satellite TV last night about building ships. Everything is mega sized. The Newport News ship building yard has 900 ton cranes to lift entire sections of an aircraft carrier into place.

They cut miles of 1" and 2" plate steel. They use a huge gantry plasma system cutting under water.

They prefer plasma over oxy (although they use oxy for the thicker stuff) because it cuts a lot faster.

As for cutting the piece in question with a 1250 hand torch: Better recheck your source one more time. The HD claim was easier to believe. This one borders on a urban myth. Unless that piece is huge the 1" thickness is in doubt (porportions are wrong) . The fact it has no bevel would indicate it has been post processed after the cut. Bevel on thick cuts (especially on curves) is to be expected and is even addressed by the manufacturer.

Personally, I vote for it having been cut on an abrasive waterjet machine. It can do straight sides and smooth edges on material up to several inches thick.

I have double checked my source. 1250 for sure.

yeah plasma has in many cases been very very over rated for some situations.

I mean how much cheaper is an oxy set up?

How many oxy torches can you run on the same gantry, for the same price as a high definiton plasma?

Oxy can cut from 5mm up to 2000mm, yes 2000mm.

So in many ways oxy will have a definant advantage over plasma. It all comes down to the bloke selling you the machine and setup.

Apples
Australia

Our main steel supplier still uses an eight torch oxy-fuel setup over their large gantry plasma because it's easier to use and provides a better (square) cut than plasma and the dross is about the same.
<O:p</O:p<O:p
We use a lot of oxy-fuel and I don't think it's ever going to change. Oxy fuel is about a forth the speed of plasma though with multiple heads the speed advantage is easily lost and generally we never have to worry about squareness of cut or heavy tapers on corners which we've experienced with plasma. The biggest problem with oxy-fuel is piercing. Though, we've started using some tricks like 'dynamic piercing' to minimize blowback. <O:p</O:p

I agree with Dale Heart. The oxy fuel perform better than plasma to use for cutting thick material. From our experiece, the mild steel thickness above 19mm is not easy to cut with Air plasma, powermax 1650 or Max200. We also need to monitor the nozzle and electrode condition to avoid heavy tapers of cutting.
When we use oxy fuel, we can get a nice cutting surface without taper problem.
Please check photo of cutting sample on http://www.actech.com.my/prod.html

Joe
AC Meca (M) Sdn. Bhd.

Joe: Sounds to me like all you need to do is buy a *PlasmaCAM* machine and you can cut 1" with a 1250 just smooth as butter with no taper!! I don't know why you and everyone else is having trouble making perfect cuts......all you gotta do is read the earlier posts. :bs:

Tom (Sarcastic) Caudle

I have to echo Mr. C's remarks...

I have a Hypertherm 1650 and I would never think of cutting 1.0" w/o having considerable taper and poking along too.

The 1650 does a great job but you have to accept some taper and a slower IPM rate.

Good Luck,

Tom P

Tom, I will consider to buy the "butter cutting machine". But I have to test the MP-1000 I bought from CandCNC for my machine's "digital height Control" before I make the decision.:)

I just purchased a plasmacam system and set up and operation was simple enough.
But Im an old machinist that knows lots about most machine tools but im new to plasma cutting can anyone point me in the right direction for dialing in my thermaldynamics tourch for this system i understand the basics very well and im already getting good parts but im guessing at it lol

Zombiestomp,

If you have not already, signup to the yahoo group called Plasmapig. It is ALL plasmacam users. There are many people posting there with many different torch setups. I am certain that someone could give you a hand getting your setup dialed in. Here is the link...

Plasmapig Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Plasmapig/)

Have fun cutting!

Rick

PlasmaCAM has 3 years warranty and 3 years free tech support on the SAMSON 5x10 table and the DHC2 4x4 table.

The Digital Height Control has ohmic material sensing and voltage controlled cutting height.

The software will import dxf, gcode (absolute coordinates), csv, and bitmaps(256 color or less).

I will be glad to answer any questions.

George, PlasmaCAM Support

The software will import dxf, gcode (absolute coordinates), csv, and bitmaps(256 color or less).

I will be glad to answer any questions.

George, PlasmaCAM Support[/QUOTE]



Will it import (.stp) files.......


Thanks
Brian

Sorry, .stp files are not supported. They would have to be exported as a flat dxf. R13 or older.

Regards,
George


The software will import dxf, gcode (absolute coordinates), csv, and bitmaps(256 color or less).

I will be glad to answer any questions.

George, PlasmaCAM Support



Will it import (.stp) files.......


Thanks
Brian[/QUOTE]

Please reply with the model of TD you have.

Regards,
George


I just purchased a plasmacam system and set up and operation was simple enough.
But Im an old machinist that knows lots about most machine tools but im new to plasma cutting can anyone point me in the right direction for dialing in my thermaldynamics tourch for this system i understand the basics very well and im already getting good parts but im guessing at it lol

Upss!!! I Think That I Have A Problem, I Bought An Old Plasma Table And Not Have Software, The Control Works Only Essi Codes "bad News", And Now I Need A Software, Exist Some Software That Generates These Codes? Can The Mach3 Work?

I Appreciate Your Comments!!!


I think you mean EIA ISO which would be a standard G-code. All you'll need is some prep codes at the start and end of the profiles you want to cut and off you go.

You might want to check for a height sensor. Do you have one?

There are many programs you can purchase for $500- $1500 bucks that will do what you need and are easy to use.

I'm looking at buying a plasma or laser whats a good cam software for these kind of machine i have mastercam, toolpath and bobcad looking for some thing that gives me some thing that is a fetchers that will help me on these kinds for profile cutters:confused:

we bought a fab shop that has a vicon 8000 cnc plasma table but no computer or software any where we can buy software to test machine it is about 10 yrs old ,will any ones software work or must it be vicons ?i would hate to have to buy a 3000 $ software only to find table does not work !! HELP

You are supporting open systems like parallel port, and you are supporting MACH software which is not open. Why dont you support LINUXCNC it is open.

Company I work for has bought THC from you with promise it will work with
any software. And THC is collecting dust in our shop. You didnt answer our emails to help us with it. Then we go with dynatorch THC. And we are happy. It is plug and play and works great.

You work together with http://www.campbelldesigns.com/ which is now selling MACH3 enclosure. C'mon MACH3 enclosure???? So I guess his enclosure is compatibile with MACH software. It is nonsense.

You support MACH because MACH is supporting your hardware. It is not open.
Why you didnot explain how to make your THC work with other software???

Your printed material we get with your THC is garbage full of advertisment how to buy more hardware from you. On the other side manual for dynatorch THC is done really good, it is something like FANUC, FAGOR or HAAS manuals.
Everything you need is there!

Mach is great software for hobby milling etc.
You need GCODE for milling, but not for plasma. Plasma is more like a plotter or printer. For any shop it is stupid to buy plasma CNC with GCODE.
You save on machine but you pay operator more. If you know GCODE you will not work for 15/hr on plasma machine but for 25 on a mill or lathe!
Any plasma CNC with GCODE used in a shop is loosing 100$ each day

The good part of a Torchmate is that it uses conventional motor drivers and parallel port PC interface so you could elect to use some other software controller software (eg MACH3) and take advantage of all the built in plasma feature and lower cost THC options. They of course would prefer you buy into their total solution but at least there are options if you later decide you want something else.

Some offerings like the PlasmaCAM and DynaTorch are proprietary and you have to use their motion software/controller. This may not sound like a bad idea but then you find other third party options closed to you. You live with the features as they are or scrap the machine

It's kinda like buying a car that uses custom sized tires, battery, wiper blades, etc and having no place to get replacements but from the factory. When you only have one source you only have one price.

I was using MSFT DOS and Windows for whole life, then my friend told me thad Linux is better because it is not proprietary and it is free. And I lost 2 month of my life. Then one night I put my Linux computer into garbage bin.
Bill Gates was right when he asked who will develop software if it is free, farmers when they finish field work hahaha
CNC plasma is more similar to OS the a car.
ESAB use custom parts, software is proprietary, and dont tell me ESAB is not good!
What is point here: TM is good machine because they use my THC.

ask plasma cam man how they handle the transere of a four month old used machine when it comes to their confidence of quality equipment concerning warrenty and phone support.....NADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think they know how reliable the machine rally is and therfore refuse warranty and phone support f you don't buy the machine new from them. even though the original owner paid full price for the machine with 3 yrs warranty and tech support......

ya I agree that's kind of messed up. The warranty and tech support should be for the 4 years from the original date of purchase no matter who it was. What I all ways look for in a company is one that goes above and beyond.

hopefully some unsuspecting "VICTIMS" will see this thread and avoid throwing away money on a company that will not stand behind their investment when it comes time to sell their machine and upgrade to something else.

I have a PlasmaCam DHC (THC) and it is a good system. Pcam (George et al) has always helped me with any issues I have had, which are usually operator related.

I did not shop around, as the ad in Popular Mechanics had me grabbing for the check book, but I don't feel like I made a bad decision. It is a solid machine that is is great for anyone interested in starting CNC cutting.

Now that I have had the machine for a couple years, I am considering moving to a more robust system, really looking at Torchmate, though I will shop Dyna torch as well. PCam and their new Sampson machine looks good, but they just need to work on their software. It is nice and simple for the novice, but it is really slow to work with as compared to other CAD programs out there, and how is it that they still do not include any nesting?

bottom line from my perspective:
If you are a beginner looking to write a check and start cutting, don't be afraid of Plasma Cam from what is said on this board. It is a good turnkey system that won't leave you confused and in a haze about waht servo/stepper needs to be configured how.

lastly, be sure to buy a Hypertherm cutter, in a capacity at least 50% greater than you think you'll ever want to cut. It's cheaper to buy this just once.

Hi, we have 2 plasma cnc ,a vicon and a MG INDUSTRIES ,but no one who knows how to use !Would any one like a vacation paid trip to the virgin islands for a week to help us set it up ?if you are interested please contact me bill koenig at bill@wmkmechanical.com or steelcon1@hotmail.com please serious inquiries only thank you

Bill
What is the age model and makeup of your Vicon? I have just obtained a Vicon 9000 with stepper drives and a Thermal Dynamics PAK 5XR plasma unit that I will be refurbishing and updating. If your unit is as old as mine (1988) your computer system probably needs to be updated too.

If you have the time to tackle yours we can probably swap info. Looks like about a hundred hours or so stretched out over several months.

I'm Trying to convert ONE plasmacam (pcm) file, to dxf can anyone help? I do not have plasmacam, I bought a file for making plasmacam grid slats for the cnc table I built and Was not aware that pcm files cannot be converted without plasmacam software, If someone who HAS Plasmaca can convert it to dxf for me I would be willing to share the file with you in exchange.

email me the file and I can convert it for you. rpage at shol dot com