Does anyone know/know where to find a comprehensive explanation of the mills that Tree manufactured? (i.e. technical details of each model) I met a machinist who mentioned he had picked up a CNC Tree at auction about 5 years ago, and it was used then... he hasn't touched it since he got it into storage, and is thinking of letting me get it out of his way. Before I go see it I thougt I'd do some research on the machines, I'd never heard of the brand before last week. Just want to know what I'm getting into.

http://www.3sincorporated.com/co_info.htm

Or post a photo, I can identify most made in UDS tree mills.
They are excellent Iron, they did have some control problems, but the Mill itself is outstanding.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Thanks for the link, but as far as I can tell it appears their website doesn't offer anything that explains what various models Tree offered, but mainly that they can rebuild pretty much any of them... Which is great if I get the machine, but the situation is such that I need to know when I go see the thing (for the first time!) whether or not I want to trouble my friend any further... hence my desire to seek out a sort explanation (read "catalog") of their products... Like I said, it's a CNC rig, so hopefully that narrows it down a little bit (obviously I don't even know how much if any they were involved in manual machine production). I just want to learn the ins and outs of what they sold... Take for instance Adobe Machine's comment on their control problems. What, specifically, were the issues?

Getting long-winded with questions:
1.) What style/nature of programming did they use?
2.) Given that they have some programming problems (please feel free to illustrate any and all) would it be possible to update the software driving the steppers? Is there some other fix available (other than gutting drivers, computer, and software)?
3.) Did any of the machines come with/have capability to operate a 4th axis?

Any input is valued!

I need all the typical specs for a Tree 320

Jabuffi: as far as I know, all models used iso G code. Again, after 1979, all used servos, their encoders being on the ballscrew, usually not the servos themselves.Some of the later models had 4th axis capability but those were VMC,s
I'm sure there are other fixes, but I had a lot of fun tearing out all of the old stuff in both cabnets, and starting over. At least I can fix it if it dumps.I did adapt all new servos and planatary reducers as I needed torgue and accuracy.
The Iron is good ( except some of the later imported models) but I do not think any of the controls are supported anymore.. have a couple of friends that have mid eighties mills and have had few problems.
If I were buying a used , untested Tree Mill figure a retrofit in the purchase.

Richard Zastrow: I will go through some of the Tree catalogues in the next days or so..hmm may have one on either a 320 or 325, will look and get back.


Adobe (old as dirt)

Thanks! I really appreciate the answers! I wouldn't mind tearing out the guts and rebuilding the thing, just means that it would be down for a week or two... Being new to this type of work though, I have to ask: What would it cost if I were going to gut the system and go with new hardware/software?

Suppose two cases:
1.) "Just make it work", i.e. just get new controls (I assume software only), don't adapt servos/ballscrews anything else.

2.)"All the bells 'n whistles", i.e. great software, new servos/planetaries, new ballscrews, 4th axis capability.

Just a ballpark on the above two scenarios.

Last bit before further replies (I love to learn, so I ask lots of questions...): While I was doing some level of rebuild on the machine, how much trouble would it be to install handles on the ball screws such that the machine could be operated in a "manual mode"?

Finally: If I were doing an entire overhaul (above option 2) would I want/have to try to use components of the old "computer" for the control system? Or is there a (reasonable) way to use a contemporary desktop PC for the programming and driving of the machine and thus completely remove ALL old electronics?

These questions are real hard to answer not knowing the Tree model, and the condition of the present electronics.You may be able to use your present servos, you may be able to use the encoders, you may be able to use some of the relays, but If the controls are toast, then you will need a controller ( breakout board) servo amps,) a PC and software matched to the controller,wiring and the ability to read/interpert electrical diagrams , test and diagnostic ability.The other questions is how is your spindle controlled ? Programable VFD ? DC servo type motor ?
I would say that if you need new ball screws and bearings, then if you got the machine as a "gift"( I.E. free) sell what you can on E bay as parts and look for a better machine.Ball screws, ABEC 7 matched bearings etc = $2800.00 plus,
Needing new ball screws means the machine was abused, or overused or the oiling system is inoperative or plugged. That would mean the ways, gibbs and other sliding surfaces are most likly in need of re-scraping or are just junk.The spindle is another issue that can get real pricey .I do not say that you would not have the skill and knowledge to repair, regrind a spindle, but that is a Science and Art, just second to brain surgery. Check the posts by Walt @ SGS,and I know HuFlungDung also rebuilt one of his machines spindles, but he is a highly skilled machinest/mechanic. Walt does it as a living,and have heard nothing but good about his skill and product.
For a retro-fit your cost can be anywhere between $3000.00 to $12,000.00
depending on how you want to configure, bells and whistles, software etc..and believe me there is a learning curve that takes time and concentration.
Best advice is be carefull of your purchase, read all the threads on mill retrofits you can, then look at some of the new offerings for three axis mills, there are a lot of nice CNC mills ,new, done with good controls for $12,000 to $21000.00, have a warrenty and service.

Adobe (old as dirt)

I suspect that, mechanically speaking, the machine is in fine shape... i.e. the ball screws, ways, gibbs do not need a rebuild. Given the pricing indicated above, I don't think I'll mess with the machine if I receive any indications otherwise.

I was told that at the time it was bought at auction by my friend, it was fully operational (sold due to shop closure). He's very concientous (sp) and sealed the machine and all parts in plastic before storing it. So, hopefully, it might even be possible that when powered up it would run just fine. But, knowing that many others have cited "control problems" I'm fully prepared to do an overhaul on the controls system.

If that were the extent of my refurb, I'd need what? Computer & software, breakout board, and probably replace the servos... I can build a computer, but any recommendations on breakout boards/servos/software?

RICHARD ZASTROW: Sorry, I had info on the Tree "310" and "325" Pictures and specs enclosed. I have one more box to go through, possibly will find a 320.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Adobe You may be old as dirt but I have at least 1 year on you. The reason I'm asking about the Tree 320 is there one available in good mechanical shape but lousy electronics. Asking price is $1,000. Might be a candidate for resuscitation.

Well I would do it in a heart beat ( hey we may not have a lot of those left ),I know that I can re-tro a 3 axis, with 4 axis capability for less than $3,000.00 and make a good , accurate machine if the mechanicals are in good shape..., thats about $4000.00 plus transportation ? And your labor..Takes awhile, but its fun..(still looking for my 320 file )

Adobe (old as dirt)

Adobe I suppose I should do this since as you say we may have a limited amount of those heartbeats left. I already have been "remanufactured" myself with an 8 bypass procedure and a "Maze" procedure to correct an irregular heartbeat rather than installing a pacemaker. But I must admit to one of those "interesting lives" as that old Chinese curse puts on you. I had another one put on me as well: "You are a very responsible person" which means it's all my fault.

Yep, been toast twice, once in SE Asia( Helicopter down,) and once in a BAH
( Blown Alcohol Hydro ) at 196 mph. Its all my fault too. Who would volunteer
for an outfit called MAAG in 1963 ? Me ..my fault and who would sit in a stupid 750 lb hydro, with a KB belching 2500 plus hp , in a 10 ft deep funny little lake in Phyx Az , ( FireBird)? Yep, my fault..I like that Richard! Now it all makes sense.( gonna try to convience my wife and partner of many years of what you said )

Now to the Tree..If you decide to buy and retro, keep us up to date, and if you need any help...Those machine were good Iron, but after Mr Tree died, the company kinda lost direction like so many companies do after the founder leaves. An other company that followed that is Gorten Machine Co. They built some of the finest mills and machine tool equipment in the world..Their Tracer Mills worked really good...a pleasure to run, but now they are gone too...( I owned one of their Tracer Mills in the mid seventeys and eightys, the thing weighed 15,000lbs and made some chips !) O well,part of change I quess.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Adobe I was in SE Asia myself 1962-63. Never had a shot fired at me in anger though. I also got involved with racing. Anything that stinks, goes fast & makes noise except motorcycles or horses. Motorcycles won't stand up by themselves and horses will wipe you off the sadle at the first low limb. Lost the use of my right arm flipping a snowmobile at 125 mph. Never got hurt with a hydro, water wasn't frozen.

Tree I'm waiting for my cohort in crime to return. He has access to the 320 for that price. He remanufactures and converts machinery. Later

um, MAAG, 25th Infantry ?

Adobe (old as dirt)

Adobe We're gonna be booted out of here for getting off subject. I was in SE Asia but not 'nam. I was working for a "private company" checking out old maps for updating & corrections. Funny thing though, they didn't label anything. They were topographical and showed features without naming them. Sort of like drawings of air photos. Strange eh?

Back to Tree Partner has returned. I'm waiting for him to get re-introduced to his wife, then I will aproach him.

Does anyone know/know where to find a comprehensive explanation of the mills that Tree manufactured? (i.e. technical details of each model) I met a machinist who mentioned he had picked up a CNC Tree at auction about 5 years ago, and it was used then... he hasn't touched it since he got it into storage, and is thinking of letting me get it out of his way. Before I go see it I thougt I'd do some research on the machines, I'd never heard of the brand before last week. Just want to know what I'm getting into.



I have two CNCTree mill model 2uvr-c journeyman. I have been running these machines for over twenty five years. if the machine you are talking about is the same model as mine ,I do have the repair manual and schamatics.if you have questions about the machine you can contact me at:

1-666-272-1288
BERNARD WILLIAMS

There's a full copy of a CNC Tree brochure on my website in this folder:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/treebrochure/

I've got a 325 that came with a working Dynapath Delta 20 control. I've put the Centroid control on (with most all the bells and whistles - probing/digitizing, fourth axis) but as a DIY retrofit in one of the stock cabinets rather than buying the Centroid "here's everything wired up and ready to hang on the side of your machine".

I put the 2000L encoders on the servos. You do need to watch if trying to reuse various OEM contactors because they seem to tend to be fairly high voltage units, while the Ajax/Centroid is designed around low-voltage contactors. That caused a bit of delay while I rounded up more of the relays - I should have more closely investigated the parts that I had.

If your Dynapath control works, I'd suggest that you just leave it alone and get up and running. If you've never done anything like a retrofit (and I hadn't) you can run into little issues that might be no problem to someone who is experienced, but I sure got stumped a few times. You can always retrofit later. What you want is a running machine that you can use to learn about CNC. As a newbie to CNC you probably won't find yourself demanding more of the control than it can give for quite some time.

The Centroid mill control seems reasonably user-friendly and powerful but then I don't have anything else to compare it to as I never ran the machine with the Dynapath.

The Tree is pretty beefy (at least the 325/425 models). After a life in industry mine has about .0003" backlash in the Y and Z screws, and .0007" in the X screw. I put new balls in the X and Y, and while that tightened up the Y a bit, it didn't make any difference in X, so it is pretty obvious which axis got the most use. However, I have not yet tried the backlash comp to see what difference it makes. As the machine sits it will be plenty accurate for the vast majority of stuff I'm likely to do. If I someday find myself with money that I don't know what to do with I may send the X screw and nut out for rebuilding, but it doesn't seem like a priority issue.

I've only gotten a couple of small items from 3S but I have no complaints about dealing with them.

A nice thing about the 325 with the spindle motor in the chassis is that it isn't very tall compared to a lot of CNC mills, which means I could actually fit one in my garage. A bad thing is that if you have a low ceiling (8' for my garage) getting the motor pulled up and out of the chassis is a real PITA.

cheers,
Michael

Mike M. Thanks for posting on this forumn, see you quite often on the other forumn, but your expertise on Tree Mills on this forumn is really appreciated.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Michael-

That was most definitly a helpful link! I especially appreciate the side by side comparison of the 210, 310, and 325. You mentioned a 425 above... How many models (other than the three covered in your manual) did they build?

Again, I appreciate the reply! Hope you stay on here, especially since you've been through a diy retro on one of these. I must say that the 4th axis has a lot of appeal. Did any of the tree stock controls support this feature, or is it always an aftermarket?

The Dynapath Delta20 listed a fourth axis as an option. Of course, that was not a free option! :)

I'm not all that familiar with the Tree line. I watched eBay for a bit and saw the Millenium machines as well as the ones in the brochure. I think the 425 is largely similar to the 325 but with a 5hp/7hp for 15 minute motor instead of the 3hp/5hp for 15 minute item on the 325.

There were also VMCs but I don't have any information on them. 3S is probably going to be the best place to go for detailed information.

The 325/425 seem hard to beat for a reasonably sized and beefy knee mill. Sure, it would be nice to have more Z axis movement, but all the bed mills that I saw were too tall for my garage. There are a number of owners of the 325/425 over at Practical Machinist, and I can't recall anyone doing any significant complaining about their machines.

If you get one with the high speed Yaskawa spindle motor and matching spindle drive with encoder feedback I'd recommend that you not mess with that. I made the mistake of selling my drive off to a guy who was trying to make money with his Tree that had his drive fail, thinking that a generic VFD would work OK, but that has not been the case. The high speed (8000K) motor seems to have the current draw of a larger motor, and a 5hp VFD doesn't have enough steam for this nominally 3 hp motor. I'll be trying a 7.5 hp VFD to see how that goes, but I'm resigned to the possibility of having to go with a "real" spindle drive with encoder feedback (like the OEM part) to get things to work right. That isn't going to be inexpensive, but I've got enough invested in the machine and control conversion to make ponying up the bucks to get it to run right look like a worthwhile expenditure.

cheers,
Michael

Just my two cents worth..but that Journeyman 325 looks a lot like a Bridgeport Interact...my school has one that has less than 100 hours on it and just sits...my teacher wants to get rid of it, but has to put it up for auction to do so and doesn't want to bother unless he can make sure it goes to a good home...if anyone has any info on the Interact I sure would appreciate it as I wouldn't mind owning it.

Michael-

You mentioned how your tree fits nicely in the garage, a fact that makes me misty eyed since I think that's where I'll set mine. Did you have to run a phase converter, or did your area have 3 phase available to residential?

I use a DPC-10 from Phase Perfect. The spindle drive is the only thing that needs three phase on the mill, but my lathe also has a 3 phase motor (but no drive for it as all the speed changing is done through gears).

The Phase Perfect is expensive, but it is very easy to deal with as it just sits there providing nice clean and stable three phase power without any concern about what is happening downstream from it.

We did manage to get the Tree jammed in the garage door for a moment, but taking it off the skates gave enough room to pinch it through.

cheers,
Michael

Can the DPC-10 just plug into a single phase 220 outlet, or is a more complex hookup required?

And when you say "expensive", you mean how many digits with what number on front?:)

No, it has its own 60A 220 single phase feed out of a subpanel. The DPC-10 is the 10hp (and smallest capacity) of the Phase Perfects.

http://www.phaseperfect.com/products.htm

I think the small one is in the $2500-2800 range.

cheers,
Michael

Hi All,
I'm looking at a 425 retrofit myself - Michael thanks for the input on the Centroid controller; I'd also like to leave my options open for an 8K/10K spindle migration path in the future (may as well get all I can out of the piece). I plan on supplimenting my Haas VF2SS with this machine, using it to perform backside operations and blank prep in a production environment. Once I'm into it I'll be happy to post pix.

Initially the machine came with a parts-bin Delta-Tau retrofit. I've heard good things about them, other than the price, but am told that their control systems are best suited for large industrial apps. Anyway the system was flaky from day 1 and a lightning hit did it in.

I had a real hard lightning strike take out our server, 3 desk tops and our only CNC at the time .The Hurco 2 axis " may have" suffered damage also. The insurance company was not happy, but paid for a retrofit and the rest of the damage, plus 3 weeks ( documented ) business interruption money. My premiumns did not suffer, but at renewal time there was a change in the policy on " events" that my attorney said disincluded " Acts of God"..We shopped around, paid a little more , but the policy did not eliminate lightning caused damage.Might look at your insurance when the accident happened.

Good luck on your retrofit, and keep us informed, maybe some pictures ?
Thats an excellent machine to retrofit, real good iron.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Jabuffi: as far as I know, all models used iso G code. Again, after 1979, all used servos, their encoders being on the ballscrew, usually not the servos themselves.Some of the later models had 4th axis capability but those were VMCs
I'm sure there are other fixes, but I had a lot of fun tearing out all of the old stuff in both cabnets, and starting over. At least I can fix it if it dumps.I did adapt all new servos and planatary reducers as I needed torgue and accuracy.
The Iron is good ( except some of the later imported models) but I do not think any of the controls are supported anymore.. have a couple of friends that have mid eighties mills and have had few problems.
If I were buying a used , untested Tree Mill figure a retrofit in the purchase.

Richard Zastrow: I will go through some of the Tree catalogues in the next days or so..hmm may have one on either a 320 or 325, will look and get back.


Adobe (old as dirt)


These questions are real hard to answer not knowing the Tree model, and the condition of the present electronics.You may be able to use your present servos, you may be able to use the encoders, you may be able to use some of the relays, but If the controls are toast, then you will need a controller ( breakout board) servo amps,) a PC and software matched to the controller,wiring and the ability to read/interpert electrical diagrams , test and diagnostic ability.The other questions is how is your spindle controlled ? Programable VFD ? DC servo type motor ?
I would say that if you need new ball screws and bearings, then if you got the machine as a "gift"( I.E. free) sell what you can on E bay as parts and look for a better machine.Ball screws, ABEC 7 matched bearings etc = $2800.00 plus, Needing new ball screws means the machine was abused, or overused or the oiling system is inoperative or plugged. That would mean the ways, gibbs and other sliding surfaces are most likly in need of re-scraping or are just junk.The spindle is another issue that can get real pricey .I do not say that you would not have the skill and knowledge to repair, regrind a spindle, but that is a Science and Art, just second to brain surgery. Check the posts by Walt @ SGS,and I know HuFlungDung also rebuilt one of his machines spindles, but he is a highly skilled machinest/mechanic. Walt does it as a living,and have heard nothing but good about his skill and product.
For a retro-fit your cost can be anywhere between $3000.00 to $12,000.00
depending on how you want to configure, bells and whistles, software etc..and believe me there is a learning curve that takes time and concentration.
Best advice is be carefull of your purchase, read all the threads on mill retrofits you can, then look at some of the new offerings for three axis mills, there are a lot of nice CNC mills ,new, done with good controls for $12,000 to $21000.00, have a warrenty and service.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Hello there, new to this forum, I have been reading up on Tree since I came across a couple of Tree VMC mills locally. Both are apparently in need of some sort of service: "1996 Tree VMC-500 vertical CNC, 20x20x20, PC-2100 control. Needs work on Z thrust bearings" and "1995 Tree VMC-1050 vertical CNC 40x20x25, Dynapath control, 24 tool holder, CAT 40, includes chip conveyor. Needs work on high low shift. Includes SMW indexer."

I haven't seen either one of them in person yet, just pics(they don't look pristine, definitely been used in a production environment), and so far have just emailed him asking about the use they have had, if a tech has looked at them and given an estimate for repair, as well as any other known issues. Also asked how tight they are. We'll see what response I get. From reading some threads here, Tree is no more, and there is a place in WI to get some parts, but didn't see anything listed for the VMC, mostly just the knee mills.

Which brings me to my questions, which may have been partially answered in the 2nd quote from Adobe:

In the 1st quote you mentioned ..." The Iron is good (except some of the later imported models)" could you please elaborate on that, what would be considered a later model, and is it across the board, the VCM's, or the knee mills?

The other main question, which he did cover pretty well, was making sure the basic iron is in good shape, because replacing parts can add up pretty quickly I see, not to mention that they are probably going to be getting harder and harder to find. The good thing is that it won't see anywhere near the use it did in a production environment, so if things are reasonably tight, then it should last me my lifetime, as they are quality built machines.

From the 2 descriptions I quoted, do you think I should be wary of these machines? They are a pretty good price, compared to others of the same model and year I've seen for sale on the web, but usually there is a reason for that. If they do need some work, what is the best way to find a qualified company to do it? I am not afraid of doing a retro on the electronics (I'm somewhat of a geek), but when it comes to reworking parts that have a tolerance of .0001 or better, that worries me a little, as I don't have the experience in that field to know it will be done correctly, and if it isn't, then all the money spent could be wasted.

Any advice you can give me before I drive over to take a look at them, what I should be looking for/asking about, and what answers I should be hearing that tell me it probably doesn't need a complete overhaul. One reason I am looking at these as opposed to the new ones mentioned at $12-22,000 is that I can afford this one now, and put some money into it as I go, but can't afford to drop 15-20 g's on a new one. Of course, if they are in that bad of shape where they may me cost more than 12-22k to get up to spec, I certainly wouldn't be interested in taking that route. If on the other hand I can get away with $3-5,000 to bring it up to snuff, (plus whatever a Centroid would cost me-eventually) that would be acceptable, I can afford that down the road a little. Thanks for any input that might help me make a wise decision, you guys really seem to know your stuff. :)

Hummm Tuff question.. call 3 S at 414-570-9530..Both Dan and Zorian worked for Tree untill they closed..That indicates they had experiance with and including the last few VMC they manufactured.

The have connections, and are streight shooters.. They will be able to give you people in your area that are competant in Tree VMC repair..

I would be intrested in the one you do not buy.I can give it a nice , warm home.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Well, talked to S3, they don't do those models, but refered me to someone who did. They appearently still work on them, and have parts if I need them.

I'm going to look at both of them, I spoke with the local rep who serviced them today, had a nice educational convo with him. He was pretty up on the 1050, but the 500, not so much so. It needed a couple things done to it, and he was pretty unimpressed with the design, especially with the changer. I plan on heading up there one morning this week, I am meeting with a person who usually runs it, to go thru it's paces.

I may purchase both of them, go thru them and sell the one I don't keep. I will need to find a place to put them that has 3 phase power, though. Lots of big decisions to make in a pretty short period of time.

Cool, nice you found someone that knows those VMC's..Keep us all informed and post some pictures ! Would still be intrested in the other machine.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Well, I thought I had posted a nice long reply early this morning, but it seems to somehow not have posted... :mad: I will re-do it later, kind of busy now, but gist of it is that I am taking the 1050, passing on the 500 because of all the issues it has. Dang, it was a good post, too... :(

Well, I thought I had posted a nice long reply early this morning, but it seems to somehow not have posted... :mad: I will re-do it later, kind of busy now, but gist of it is that I am taking the 1050, passing on the 500 because of all the issues it has. Dang, it was a good post, too... :(

Duplicate