I bought this Pratt Whitney Type C Tool room lathe in the early 70's at a US Government auction.The lathe had never been used, had no tooling, chuck, motor or belts, but was damaged as the shipping pallet had wasted away and broken or bent all the controls in front. At the time I was going to college on the GI bill,working full time at a machine shop and raising a growing family.Having neither the time or resources to equip or repair it, sat for another 4-5 years. In fact I almost went broke paying for transport to my garage, as this "little" 12X30 lathe is 3200 lbs !

Sometime after graduation, suffering through my 1st layoff in the GREAT Aerospace industry, I did repair the broken handles,clean,install a 10hp, 2 speed motor and belts and started doing prototype work, sub contract and small lot pieces. We quickley found out that this is a very accurate, smooth lathe, with a very good finish capability.My customers were happy.

We have kept good care of the lathe over the years, I did not allow any other employees to operate, never used a tool post grinder on it, did only prototype or small pieces. Got tired of the horrible Government green paint and refinished with a 2 part epoxy Grey in the 80's..have touched it up, but the paint is still holding up.

I believe the machine was manufactured in the mid 1950's as one thing that I got with the lathe is an updated wiring diagram dated 1952 ( The paper is parchment, really old) The auction reciept did not list a year, only model and ser.#. Wow that makes it 50 yrs old or so..!

The gearedhead has 32 speeds ( with the 2 speed motor) has its own oil filter and oil pump. I did have Caterpiller ( Empire Machinery,Phoenix ) do an oil analysis on the gearhead oil...came out real good.. no metal, bronze, chrome or other suspect metals in any excess amounts .

The decision to retrofit to CNC was easy.Due to an accident I'm in a wheel chair and cannot stand in front of a lathe very long to build goodies (blower systems, pulleys, contours, threading etc) very long. I have a good Le Blond 17X60 manual lathe if needed, in fact will be used to build parts for the Pratt Whitney.

Getting with the program to retrofit:
1)Clean up and spot paint the old girl
2)Remove the apron drive shaft,threading feed rod compound acme screwand nut, along with the taper attachment.

Here are the items purchased and delivered so far. Machine Tool camp servos with US Digital encoders, ( 672 oz/inch) Desk CNC Motion Control Card and their Software,encoder cables with a US digital encoder for the spindle RPM.I chose Machine Tool Camp as I used their program for my 3 axis Tree Mill retrofit,have had NO problems, and Scott's help in the electronics and software was invaluable. I'm also using Vector 3d CAD/CAM from IM Service that matches Desk CNC, and I have become comfortable with the system, even being a complete computor KLUTZ.Fred Smith and Jackies help have kept me sane learing the system.
Rockford rolled Ballscrews and double nuts were my choice for both axis, will machine the ends myself on my manual Le Blond lathe.Taking my own advice, I also purchased the Fixed angular bearing mount for both the Z and X axis, will use one simple bearing mount for the Z axis, but made the mount for the X axis.
I made the large timing pullys ( 72 teeth) out of 6061 Alum and had them hard anodized, bought the 10 teeth smaller ones which will give me a 7.2 to 1 ratio..the servos are rated @ 4200 rpm, but will reduce to 3500 rpm. This gives a final G00 rapid of 90ipm with the 5tpi ballscrews, which is a lot faster than I can think at this age.(actually that means the entire Z axis transverses in less than 30 seconds) Misc electronics will include 2 electronic relays to control coolant and a four position tool changer that is in "design" stage..for now my goal is to construct the 2 axis,with no backlash or problems and use the lathe in CNC untill I'm comfortable .Then possibly a 3rd axis and tool changer.
Not pictured is the 12 amp 70 volt power supply ( Machine Tool Camp) and the electronics cabnet and misc wiiring and electronics.
Building the front x axis simple bearing mount:
1st picture. Using my PowerMatic Verticle automatic band saw to cut the 6061 t-6 material. ( If I concentrate this saw will cut accuratley to .030-.050 and saves a lot of machine time..)Then using my Retrofited 3 axis Tree Mill to "square "the part and machining the male and female bosses . The bearing fit is tight slip fit ( used oil and both thumbs to push in ). Also the 4 mount holes and counter sink.
You will notice the mounted manual oil ( way) pump. I drilled and tapped fittings for the Z axis carriage,and the compound slide,in addition both Ball nuts will be lubricated by this system.
Next will be the rear bearing ( fixed angular ) mount.

Here are the rest of the pictures for the front x axis bearing mount

Machining and assembly of the rear X axis fixed angular bearing mount.
The real problem here is to establish a true center line of the compound ball shaft both vertical and horizontal. There is a machined hole that had located the rear compound bearing for the acme rod, and also located the the taper attachment. The center line of that machined hole will be the center line of the ball screw. I turned a "plug" that fit in the hole, (1.125), then cut, surfaced , drilled the 4 mount holes and counter sunk for allen bolts on the spacer block.
Mounting the spacer block on the lathe, I used my depth mic from the top of the bearing block ( machined) to the top of the compound ways ( machined) then to the top of the plug I just made, added that together plus the radius of the plug and I should have centerpoint ( should) I measured three times and had a friend of mine who is a very good machinest come over to the house/shop with his depth gauge and his answer was withen .0003 of mine.
This gave me the depth for the fixed angular bearing mount, the center of the bearing block is the center of the bolt pattern(horizantaly)
Using Vector Cad Cam made a short pocket program, but added .015 to the width of the pocket for a little "fudge factor". and also drilled the 4 holes (oversize by .020) for the bearing mount.When I know everything is in good alingment,then I will install 3/16 locating pins on both the spacer block and the fixed angular bearing mount and correctly torque all of the fastners.
The reason I left some fudge factor is due to "stack of tolerance",which believe me ,has gotten me in trouble before.( I.E. assuming everything was perfect and would fit just right )I'm not discounting that we may have to use shims, or surface the fixed angular bearing mount.
Next will be the mount for the double ball nut on the compound, then to machining the ball screw and a very small knurled "positioning" knob on the front of the machine for the X axis.

Adobe ( old as dirt)

Nice. Do I see the leightweight pulley on picture #1? Big reduction?

yes ,but the belt is not the correcrt one..also you can see the tensioners, as I use two per belt to tension and to keep the correct "wrap" on the small pully. By the way how is your conversion going ?any pictures yet ?

Adobe (old as dirt )

Where did I say I was doing a conversion? I already did a CNC mill and software with a friend in 1986. I can only be accused of updating. But my main fixation at the moment is threading.

yes the software I have does have a threading program, all you do is fill in the length etc, and immediatly the G code is written.This covers metric, us and if you need an odd ball ( like .472X 32) you can build that type also.
O, and sorry I thought you were building a cnc lathe.

Adobe (old as dirt )

I worked on a CNC lathe. Threading was just fantastic at 800-1000rpm, it is the big difference. I also did worms with circular intrapolated starting points. But, what is the reason for the big reduction?

Its just 7.2:1. This also helps increase torque, which I need as the spindle is limited to 2000 rpm .At axis servo speed of 3500 rpm, this calculates to 90 IPM. The total Z travel is only 30 inches, so it could go from Z 30 to Z0 in 20 seconds which to me, is just real fast. Any higher ratio,it would gain speed and lower torque. Also, if I do not like the axis performance,it is not much of a job to make another pully. Thanks for your reply

Adobe (old as dirt )

Adobe Machine,

I noticed that your new thread here is posted in the "Test Forum".

You might want to move to a more specific catagory. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that all the post in the "Test Forum" are deleted after a short period of time.

Jerry




.

er, your right.how do you switch to another forum ? and thanks.


Adobe (old as dirt)

Wow, Nice machine Adobe. Warms the heart to see one of these beasts find a caring home :)

er, your right.how do you switch to another forum ? and thanks.


Adobe (old as dirt)

You could just start a new thread in a more specific catagory, then copy and paste what you have here into the new thread.

Or, maybe ask a Moderator to move the entire thread for you?

Jerry



.

A note on the small pulley: for the inch timing belts, the factory recommends that there are at least 6 tooth in contact with the pulley. I cite: "Befinden sich 6 oder mehr zahne in eingriff, so ubertrifft die festigkeit der zahne normalerweise die festigkeit der zugkorper"(catalog Uniroyal). Translated: If there are 6 or more tooth in contact, then the total rip force of the tooth is greater than the ripforce of the belt. I have never seen this recommendation again, but I think it is a sound advice. It is imaginable that under load you introduce flex, through overloading off the (few) tooth. Theoretically I would say, that you lose precision with a small pulley.

RotarySMP, thanks, that lathe has been good to me, might be the oldest CNC lathe around when I'm finished.

Fka.Carel Yes, you are correct.Before my "enforced" retirement (wreck) we designed and manufactured specialty Asphalt machinery, and in the last 6 years began using large timing belts (in place of chains)in certain situations.
The belt supplier always recomended a 50% or better wrap.Because of space constraints and ratios we had to use 2 tensioners ( or 1 idler and 1 tensioner) to acheive the correct wrap. My initial design will use one idler and 1 tensioner placed so that the small pully will get at least 50% engagement.
But, if I do not like the design then can be changed quickly. ( thats what nice about being retired, nothing has to happen quickly)

Would also like to point out that the timing belts held up 3-5 times longer than chains, as they withstood shock better. ( Actually we called them Gilmer belts )I have seen some German asphalt machines that also used Gilmers( in situations where they were not exposed to heat or hot asphalt)
and they used the 50% warp too.

Adobe ( old as dirt )

Beautiful machine and a good looking conversion...One question...What are the "T" slots down the side of the way for? I think it's in picture No3 on your original post. :beer:

Those " T " slots were machined at manufacture for the Taper attachment.
I checked them for parallel to the Z axis ways and they are spot on. They are an odd ball size so I made 4 "T" nuts( 4 came off the machine ) and they will support the bearing blocks for the Z axis ball screw.Pretty handy ,huh.
Thanks for the comment.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Machining the X axis ball nut carrier: There is not a lot of room under the carriage cross slide to install a carrier for the double nut, and there is the alingment problem too. After removal of the old acme screw nut ( and what an engineering marvel that is ,will explain in next post ) I copied the gross deminsions. I cut a square of 6061-t6,& squared up in the mill . Using Vector CAD / CAM drew the boss and placed the mount holes as per the old acme nut, plus drilled and tapped 3/8 -16 hole in the center of the boss, also milled some 3/8 grooves on the bottom for clearence, then milled an .800 hole thru the carrier for ball screw clearence.

I will not actually assemble the carrier to the carriage untill the ball screw has been machined..I have to assemble the ball nuts to the screw "in place" then assemble the rear fixed angular bearing mount to the machine bring the ballnut flange up to the the carrier just made, mark the holes, ( everything

tight, carriage in place and gibb correctly adjusted) pull it back apart , drill and tap 1/4-20 ( the flange holes will be sized to .266 for fudge factor again)
this will also be pinned with a 3/16 steel pin when everthing works smooth.( I have no doubt that will take time and be a little frustrating)

1st picture : the squared and flat piece in the mill and milling the boss circle.
2nd picture: the completed part with fastners
3rd picture: showing the double ball nut and the new carrier
4th picture: fit to crossslide ( off the machine )

next post will explain the very innovative acme screw not for the cross slide.

Adobe ( old as dirt )

The old adjustable acme nut for the X axis: I understand that Pratt-Whitney developed and patented this " adjustable " acme nut for the cross slide in 1942 ! Over the years I have adjusted a few times, and can get almost zero backlash with out getting so tight the cross slide is hard to turn in and out. Why I'm showing this is our fathers ( grandfathers ?) were pretty darned innovative when it came to machine tools, and could even then make tools that were accurate ( a manual lathe is only as accurate as the operator)With some dial indicators on the Z and X axis, they could hold tenths all day..

Picture 1 old acme nut and the split half, my new carrier for a ball nut.

picture 2 the old nut assembled: the small half of the nut had threads machined in its outer diameter, as you can see by tighting one allen bolt and loosening the other, it brought the acme threads in opposition, just like we do with a double ball nut.. pretty good for 60 or so years ago ( and they used good material, I can see no actual wear in the nut !)

adobe

Thanks for the forensics. Making a worm gear with screws. It's a good idea, but as there are norms for threads and norms for gears, It would'nt pass nowadays. And looking again, it is a bit vulnerable. I can think of a number of people I know, that would unthread/unworm it just by being near.

Next step is turning the ends of the X axis ball screw.I have done a few of these and before you could buy just any acme screw, had to make a few of those also. I learned ( right or wrong) to make a soft jaw for the lathe chuck to center the ball screw in the chuck. This method also gives a good grip on the very hard ball screw. One of the more imortant things is to keep the ball screw and cutting tools cool. Even with carbide tooling and a rigid set up, lack of coolant, to much rpm or too aggresive of a cut will kill the tooling in a hurry, then that begins pushing the ballscrew away from the tooling , which makes a funny looking shaft.(done a couple of those )

I start by cutting the ball screw with a cut off saw and lots of water, this is high carbon steel,if you get the end you are cutting hot,it brings the carbon to the surface, making it difficult to use tooling for drilling a center for the live center.

Next step is make the soft jaw, used some scrap 6061 t-6 round stock, bored to .631 ( actual advertised major diameter ), then turned the O.D., that is pictures # 1 and 2.

Taking the piece to the verticle saw I find center and mark, align square and cut the jaw down the center. (pictures 3 and 4 ) not shown is cutting the jaw off the round stock.

pictures 5 and 6 show turning the ball screw after alingment in the chuck, drilling a center hole for the live center. Again,its slow .136 rpm ,chuck and .05 doc with lots of coolant.

I'm turning the simple end now and must get the the screw to .495 for 5.6 inches from the start, as the apron has a bored hole of .5 of 3.1" long.The simple end bearing has a bore of .4725, will turn that area to .4723 as i want a slip fit only.The rest of the simple turned end is for a small ,knurled knob, 1/8th key and a 7/16 nut.

Unfortunatley, if it was not for medical appointments I could get something done,but the rest of this week is toast for playing in the shop as I gotta go to the VA and sit around and grumble with the rest of the vets. Good care, just long lines..


Adobe (old as dirt)

here are the pictures

more pictures

great work adobe! nothing like those action shots :)

1st I wish to thank the staff at CNC Zone ffor un-screwing my screw up in starting this on the wrong forumn Thank you

Trapper 14, tis for the kind words..note I have tried to access your new lathe page as listed above a few times..I keep getting a message tht it is overloaded..is there another way to access..I'm sure all of us would like to see your new lathe..can you post the pics here ?

Adobe (old as dirt )

Those " T " slots were machined at manufacture for the Taper attachment.
I checked them for parallel to the Z axis ways and they are spot on. They are an odd ball size so I made 4 "T" nuts( 4 came off the machine ) and they will support the bearing blocks for the Z axis ball screw.Pretty handy ,huh.
Thanks for the comment.

Adobe (old as dirt)Thanks for that and I like the email notifications for this thread :) Keep going and never stop Sir :tiphat:

Finished the X axis ball screw end,front and did a test fit.Had to nudge the shaft in the bearing using the palm of my hand.Possibly should have used some 120 grit crocus cloth while in the lathe at high speed to polish a little more, as I wanted a loose slip fit. Pulled it out , no marks on the shaft so I recleaned the shaft and bearing I.D., oiled the shaft and it seemed to slide in easier. Gonna leave it alone.

Got tired of cutting the hard steel,its slow and gets boring,besides spending 3 days at the V.A. hosbital getting poked, punched and supplying blood, I wanted to have a little fun. Decided to make the Manuel X feed handle
( used only to position with the servos "off").

The handle's main diameter is 1.5", but there are two more steps, one at 1.3" and the last one at .8 inches. As you can see I knurled the main diameter with a small diamond pattern knurl.

1st picture is my "other lathe",a 17"x60" Le Blond Regal, purchased at auction in posssibly 1986-87.The lathe was used then, but in reasonable shape.Lots of my emloyees have operated ( and hurt ) this lathe, but it did a good job untill we began going to cnc in the mid 90's,as a lot of our work was big shafts for minning and construction equipment. The company who bought me out was not intrested in any manual equipment, so I got to keep this lathe also. The lathe gives a nice finish, and I can hold decent tolerances as long as I use dial indicators and take my time.When I get close on the O.D.,just switch to tenths indicators. Will be glad when the Pratt Whitney is CNC'd and operating!
Picture 2, taking a .250 cut off some scrap 6061 T-6 round stock
Picture 3, final cut on the major O.D.
Picture 4, shows the 3 steps finished
Picture 5, knurling the major diameter ( Yes, for those who know, that is a knurling bar for one of the turning centers sold with the business.it had a damaged shaft, I repaired and made a sleeve to fit in my tool holder, works excellent, minimal cost.(Just could never throw any thing away ! )
picture 6-7 shows the knob finished and installed. I think it is small enough and will not get in the way...Have had handles etc grab my apron just a couple of times.
The Z axis position handle will stay, it is clutched, to disengage, you only have to pull out the small knob in the middle.

Next is the very criticle rear fixed bearing X axis turn on the new ball screw, the tolerances on this is measured in tenths, and this ball screw did not get much softer even after I was under the lead portion, so it will be a slow go tomorrow.

Adobe (old as dirt)

A question for the experts:I'm a bit of a KLUTZ with a computor..( well really a BIG Klutz)..I had to hire a next door neighbor to help me set up a net work so that I could use the CAD in my home office and send the CAM G code to the shop and my retro fitted Tree Mill.We were unable to get it to work correctly as WiFi, ( 4 different wireless routers etc )and then just did a hard wire through the ceiling, has worked great, never lost a program. We think that the problem is the house and shop have a steel roof ( fire protection, live in a heavly forested area.idiots and lightning start lots of fires in this state)
Any way my neighbor built a computor for the Tree machine and used Win 2000 XT, as he said its a stable program.Have had no problems and use the Mill every day,my longest program being over 21,000 lines with no faults.There are no other programs installed on this machine except Desk CNC and Vector CAD /CAM from IM Service.Some how he has it programmed so that everything is turned off when Desk CNC is running,so there are no pop ups or updates etc, while running the mill.
Now I have a new laptop that my children got me for fathers day with xp etc, I wanted to use it to run the lathe I'm converting, but have seen several comments in the CNC Zone to the effect that may be this is not the best thing to do ? Will use the same combo of Desk CNC and Vector, but even my neighbor is unsure about using with XP, says he can install the same 2000 xp,which is fine .The lap top came with a lot of programs I will never use.
Just what are your recomendations? Use the Lap Top as is ? Convert to Win 2000 ? Just install extension and use the mills computor ? Neighbor said we will have to seperate (partition? ) the two Desk CNC programs, as there are different values for the machines, and do not want one program to overwrite the other.? What would you do ?
Really appreciate the advice and help !

Adobe (old as dirt )

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Adobe Machine , nice work

cheers

Machining of the x axis shaft, supported (fixed angular bearing end ), which will also be the driven end.

This was a PITA.. the shaft did not seem to lose any hardness under the "threads", although the threads disappeared at .500 ( see comments below), still seemed as hard as the 1st cut at .631..any way turned the bearing portion to .472-. and 2.35 in length.I tried to fit the fixed bearing pack @ .472 ,but it got real grumply, not what I wanted , so very carefully reduced .0005 and re-tried. I do not like cramming the shaft on angular thrust bearings..should be a gentle slip fit..not loose ..not overly tight.If you expand the inner race at all, they seem to quickly lose their accuracy...I have in the past machined to recomended specs and ended up having to "push" expensive bearings on shafts (using methods I would rather not discuss in front of NC Cams) and they quickly failed ..Expensive lessons, so I have learned to look at all specs as a starting place..and I measure the bearing I.D. and compare to specs..will admit its better now than 30-40 yrs ago, but still I use a little" Kentucky Windage" and feel to fit.


(comment ) At a measured .502 , I got worried as I began seeing the threads on one side of the shaft still remaining ( like a shadow) and 180 deg on the other side, pure virgin metal.I decided that .002 out of round would be unacceptable on this short of shaft , as it would tend to bind when turning. I assumed the manufacturer ( Rockford) was accurate to tenths on the core of the shaft. so I took a pass of less than .0007 and all the shadow went away, so did not throw the shaft in the waste basket...remains to be seen
if there is any curl or bounce in rotation.

Finished the bearing surface, liked the bearing fit ( just pulled the tail stock back, did not upset the set up.) turned the area to be threaded to .469, then turned the driven pully area to .406 ( more why later).

Threading: The first secret to threading is the math..really simple , but sooo many times I have seen this simple math overlooked, not understood, really f... up, and it usually ruins hours and hours of work on producing a complex shaft ( which this IS NOT).. any way, Rockford Ball Screws reccomends
( and sent a nut and lock washer ) a thread of .469-32..Okay, major diameter is .469, how do we figure pitch diameter and minor diameter ? I go to the little blue book ( Machinery hand book) and have to referance .500-32 as the closest we can get:( page 1649 25th edition)
.500
minus (-) .469
_______
= .031
Subtract .031 from the published Minor diameter (d3) of .500 which is .463
(forget the tenths in minor diameter, round up, its hard to measure, and I will take ten good machinests, measure minor threads and get 10 different answers, same thread) that equals .432 which will give enough room for the proper nut and will take the torque.Pitch diameter listed @.500 is .497, so subtract the .031 and you have .466, that will be about correct after debur..in fact just exactley what it turned out to be as measured .
Threading
Picture 1. Start your cross slide at 29.5 degrees..this is a must and important!
Picture 2. Align the tool post ( and tool holder ) to 90 deg to the Z axis centerliine..I keep it to (+ - 0003 over 2") takes a moment. but is important so that you are not cutting the following thread .
Picture 3 .Since this is a "re-set up" ( removed the shaft from the chuck and fixture) its imperative to check / correct run out. I'm lucky as the chuck is pretty new and tir is almost "0", so little correction is needed.
Picture 4 and 5 . This is the 5th pass, most I could take was about .0010
per pass..stuff is just hard. But with a 32 thread, any 8 numbers on the scale work ! So my job was realitive easy..I did use a dial indicator for exact depth, and one for travel on the Z ..Crank and go !
Picture 6 Threding the nut on after deburr..was not loose, not grumply, I'm buying it.

Last picture. A shot of the ISCAR insert for a 32 external thread..Makes life a lot easier using the right equipment and cutters..you can not duplicate this cut with out the right cutters..really neat under CNC control.

Next: Modification of the X axis ball nut flange, attaching to the already made carrier etc.

Thanks

Adobe (old as dirt )

PS guys still in a quandrey about the computor to use..any help ?

X axis ball nut flange modification: Not much room here, so I took the compleated ball shaft, used recomended torque for the preload on the fixed angular mount bearing, un-loaded the primary ball nut ( at least the one attached to the flange ) and began to modify. I just hate to cut up manufactured items, but could not modify the cross slide, so modified the flange to FIT. You can see in picture 1 , I just drew up the demensions in Vector and cut the ball nut flange to the specs needed to fit. Unloaded, I inserted the ballshaft in position, installed and torqued the angular bearing housing & installed the carrier to the cross slide base.I then loaded the 65 balls into the nut housing and installed the return tube loaded.The cross slide had been tightned so the cross slide would not move real easy, I backed the now loaded ball nut and flange to the cross slide/ball nut carrier to "tight" against each other and marked the 1st fastner with a center punch of the correct size (.266), then got to unload the balls and return tube.( I modified one of my wife's plastic containers and used the lathes casting to support, so all the balls fell into the containers)
Next was to drill and tap the carrier ,1/4-20...cleaned up everything and reassembled, including the ball nut, tightned the one fastner and moved the asembly through the full range of motion..No binding, real smooth..begining to feel a little better..some of the panic is easing as to having turned the shaft off center.. Everything tight, I center punched holes # 2 and 3, ...again unloaded and removed everything..( This is being real difficult in a wheel chair and trying to keep my back upright...this took two days, and some help from my wife..no one got mad !..)
Drilled and tapped the other into the carrier. At this point I realized how important the face to face relationship is on the the carrier and ball nut flange...I had read some comments by Walt @ SGS about ball nut flange to carrier relationship, and how if a little bit off could bind the ball nut...IE screw up the smoothness of the ballshaft/ballnut.I really do not know how to "scrape In" this surface, but figured ( may be wrong !) if both surfaces were flat, would stand a better chance of proper alingment.
So,I coated the 2 surfaces with blueing, heavy , and let dry. Then taped some 600 grit paper to a flat surface and began working the pieces untill all the blueing disappeared...they look flat, and on the granite stone show no light..took some time, hope I did the right thing..
In case there is some binding, I drilled and tapped 4 holes 5/16-18 in the carrier and installed set screws...that way if it is necessary to change any relationship on the ballnut flange/carrier , I can loosen, tighten, fine tune etc ..this may be "overkill"( hope ) as everything so far has indicated that the assembly is dead nuts..but you never know !
Picture 1 &2. Modify of the flange, using my Tree CNC retro fit

Picture 3 . My way of making the flange and carrier flat to each other.

Picture 4. View of empty primary ball nut attached to carrier after lapping.

Picture 5. The fixed angular bearing and fastners, ball nut (preloaded) and carrier assembly, X ball screw shaft and manual X axis knob.

Both the ball nuts must be empty to assemble and then loaded in Situ

Tomorrow...Install and test,

Thanks,

Adobe (old as dirt )

The lap top came with a lot of programs I will never use.


Just uninstall all the junk that shipped with the PC, most of it you dont need.


Just what are your recomendations? Use the Lap Top as is ? Convert to Win 2000 ? Just install extension and use the mills computor ? Neighbor said we will have to seperate (partition? ) the two Desk CNC programs, as there are different values for the machines

This would be the best option, separate the disk into two partitions (use something like partion magic to shrink the current partion) and install a second instance of XP (Use XP, it as stable if not more so than 2000 Pro) that you only use with the CNC programs, this will allow you to install what you like in to your normal every day partitions and not have to worry about the stability of the system (i.e. background tasks like AV stealing CPU cycles) while your machining.

I'm sure other will chime in about running CNC from a laptop, but I have no experience with that, but can't see why it would be an issue if you disable all the power management in the BIOS and se the XP partition to Performance/no power management.

Whats the make and model of the Laptop?

Stephen.

P.S. Nice work BTW, I have a similar sized lathe I'm looking at converting over the winter and your posts have been most helpful!

that is a beautiful lathe. only the best ones weight in at 3200 lbs for 12x30!

Swoolhead: Thanks very much for your comments, called my neighbor/ computor guy and he knew exactly what program you have mentioned.
What type of lathe are you going to convert ?


Again Thanks.

Mcguver: Thank you...they also made a 16X 60 that uses all the same parts in the gear head,apron and cross slide that weighed a hefty 5500 lbs.These lathes are very stable, just real nice to operate.Too bad we let the Machine Tool Industry go overseas,but it looks like we are losing a lot more manufacturing every day.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Swoolhead: Sorry, missed answering your question: The laptop is an Acer, Aspire 3000 with XP, 1.8 GHZ, 448 MB of Ram. Thanks

Today was assembly of the X axis ball shaft, double ball nuts, ball nut carrier,
fixed Angular bearing housing and ball shaft lubrication:
!st, I emptied the balls out of the 2nd ( tension nut) ball nut, and assembled the shaft to the angular bearing mount ( not in the machine) .then from the rear inserted the shaft ( whew !) and fed into the two empty ball nuts with the tension hardware in between.(This really sounds bad,but can not think how else to explain.) I loosley attached the angular bearing mount finger tight.Then began to load the empty ball nuts. I had some .0002 oversize and loaded the front attached ball nut , and at the same time loaded the tension nut with standard balls.

I loaded both ball nuts at the same time, did not take long at all. Assembled the return tubes, but on the front ball nut return tube I had to reduce the circumferance on the small allen head # 4 fastner to clear the attaching bolt
(pictures).

At this time I torqued all the fastners. I am a firm believer that a clean, lubricated fastner, properly torqued, will clamp the parts correctly, with out warping and possibly damaging the bearings.Unless there is extreme vibration I do not use locktight.

I set up the tenth dial guage and checked for backlash..none 0 ,but this is not cutting or loaded , so will find out when I begin making chips. The action is smooth, I can feel the extra load of the tension ball nut, but is not prohibitive. I took my battery powered drill and chucked up to the shaft and ran the carraige back and forth for 30-40 minutes pretty fast to see if the ball nuts accumulated any heat..none...then rechecked the backlash and again just not any..hopefully will stay that way.

Next was assembly of the cross slide cover, which I drilled and tapped to accept a 1/8th pipe and installed the oil fitting. At this time I'm doing all the oil lines in soft lines,when finished and I know what the exact routing is , will install 1/4 ID stainless .There will be many changes on routing ect, and the stainless and SAE fittings are just to expensive to be changing around. At least that is how I build my Hot Rods, saves lots of money and frustration to do in soft lines 1st.

Picture 1: Ball nuts installed and ready to load.

Picture 2:Ball nuts loaded and return tubes on.

Picture 3 and 4: Closer pictures of the assembly..you can see the allen head fastner that had to be modified. ( not bad, change order , just charge the customer O.T.)

Picture 5 and 6: Torqueing the fastners, used an x pattern and kept checking for possible bearing bind or roughness..none .Started at 25 lbs and worked up to 66 lbs in increment of 20 lbs .

Picture 7: Installed ballscrew cover and oil fitting,

Picture 8: Completed front view.

Next, will build the Z axis bearing mounts , turn that shaft and attachments to the ball nut flange ( which I do not have to modify, Yea..) but wife has dibs on my body the next three days..wants to go look at "nature" in the white mountains..well, ok it is pretty but I would rather be in the shop !But I started that argument before and LOST ( big time ).

Adobe (old as dirt)

[QUOTE=Adobe Machine;197735]What type of lathe are you going to convert ?
[QUOTE]

I have a Colchester Triumph 2000 (http://www.perfectphase.com/Mousse/Pages/Display/ImageVoting.aspx?FileID=1519) (about 10x30) I'm going to have a bash at converting.

My bigest problem at the moment is I don't think that the channel that the x-axis screw runs in is going to be big enough to allow me to fit a ball nut in, so I am going to have to find a way to hang the nut off the end of the cross slide and extend the screw out the back. Though this does have the advantage of allowing me to hang the servo under this and save a bit of space :)

Once I have cleared my garage up so I can get to the lathe, I'll take some mesurements and pics and start my own thread on the project.

Stephen.

Neato, that looks like a substantial lathe to start with. The x axis channel on mine, as you can see, is just real close, but was real lucky that everything fit. One of the forumn members, pstockley, has started a Hardinge TFB lathe retrofit, and he is doing the same thing you are talking about..in fact I remember that he had drawn it up in CAD, rendered and everything in maybe July, of this year. Might take a look, give you some ideas,seemed like a real professional retrofit.

Was looking at your all of your pictures, impressed with the blonde riding the rocket ! Seriously that lathe looks similar to my Le Blond, in fact the coolant piping is exactly the same. Also what nice home you have, looks like a home built right here in the USA.

Thanks

Adobe ( old as dirt )

Hi Adobe,
Can your converted cnc lathe cut thread? I found on the other thread that they could not cut thread. Thanks. Asuratman.

Yes, purchased a program from www.imserv.com, called FG4L. covers all US and metric plus odd ball..Fred Smith developed this really easy threading program that requires you to "fill in the blanks" hit the button and the G code is developed..Does require an encoder at spindle speed. Note: I'm using Desk CNC, and that program was written for it,but call them at 248-486-3600 to see if other controllers will work.
I did use the G code generated by this program,edited and transferred to a friends turning center and he commented it was better than his high dollar program, he was kinda bummed out .

The ability to thread was one reason I elected to convert the lathe to CNC, as I'm unable to stand any time at all, and manual threading requires you be right there !

Tooling and set up are still very important, CNC or manual. The above link to imserv. also has a short tutorial on threding..

Good Luck !

Adobe (old as dirt )

Hi,
As in your statement:"Does require an encoder at spindle speed.". Do you use 1 more axis controller for this encoder? Do you use the same type as on other controller? How big your DC spindle motor? Thanks. Asuratman.

Yes, purchased a program from www.imserv.com, called FG4L. covers all US and metric plus odd ball..Fred Smith developed this really easy threading program that requires you to "fill in the blanks" hit the button and the G code is developed..Does require an encoder at spindle speed. Note: I'm using Desk CNC, and that program was written for it,but call them at 248-486-3600 to see if other controllers will work.
I did use the G code generated by this program,edited and transferred to a friends turning center and he commented it was better than his high dollar program, he was kinda bummed out .

The ability to thread was one reason I elected to convert the lathe to CNC, as I'm unable to stand any time at all, and manual threading requires you be right there !

Tooling and set up are still very important, CNC or manual. The above link to imserv. also has a short tutorial on threding..

Good Luck !

Adobe (old as dirt )

Hi Adobe

nice working your doing on the lathe coversion

just that link u posted is not going to the right section , thought i would let u know

try this : http://www.imsrv.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=topics this takes you to the index of the
forum and the link connection is www.imsrv.com


It is interesting reading on the threading part , as i would like to be able to cut internal and external threads on my lathe converiosn to

keep up the good work


cheers

Asuratman: The spindle encoder only reads rpm to the desk CNC motion control card, which then coordinates the Z and X axis for threading or grooving etc.The lathe motor is a 10 hp 2 speed AC 3 ph motor. With the 2 speed motor ,plus 16 gear changes ,there are 32 possible speeds. I do not think I will use a DC motor or inverter to control speed as I do with my Tree mill conversion unless that becomes absolutley necessary.

Thanks for the inquirey

FPV GTp: Yes I should have said when you get to imserv, then click on quick lathe. That program also has quick turn,thread ( inside and out )drill and groove. All you do is fill in a couple of blanks and presto, the G code is written..Pretty standard G code, like I said we tested on my friends turning center and every function worked .They have a free down load, try it and see if that is what you need for your conversion.

How is your conversion going ? Also I have ment to ask you about your 4.0 Litre Turbo "Falcon" motor..is that like a Ford Falcon 6 cylinder in line ? Or a
V 6 ? What kind of boost pressure are you uising to generate that much H.P. ?
Alcohol or gas ? 1000 hp for 250 CID is just really screaming !Hope we get to see it when we travel to Aus. next year..

Adobe (old as dirt)

Your machine is really nice and will make a great CNC.

About 15 years ago, I obtained a Clausing hand screw lathe that I converted into an automatic. At that time no easy pc based cnc software and hardware was available at reasonable cost. After cranking this guy manually for 6 months, automation was formost on my mind.

My simple solution was to use air cylinders and solenoid valves for motion, add a bar feed and install Small hydraulic cylinders to provide axis dampening and speed control.

A small control box actuates movement. It consists of 4 micro switches and 7 cam wheels. The cam wheels are interchangable and can be moved for different parts by sliding them into position with the micro switches..... production cycle is set by stepped pulleys and gear motor with an o-ring drive belt. Rate is 1 to 3 parts per minute.

This guy has probably produced over 100,000 parts since its inception. It has worked so well that I have just now begun to think about changing to servo control.

WOW ! Is that cool ! Where there is a will there is a way! That shows innovation, determination and skill..love it... dc precision it is people like you that made this country great.. I often look at old patents and machinery and realize what went before us, and your machine is a good example of that . Very professionally done..can I ask what you produce with the unit ?
More pictures would be ok too !

Adobe (old as dirt )

Thanks for the compliment.

I have a small woodworking tool mfg business and use this lathe to make a special brass threaded stud, dowel pins and shaft collars. It is pretty much capable of making any part that can be made on a hand screw machine but I pretty much tailored it to my specific parts needs. If you like this one, please check out my CNC burgmaster in the photo gallery. Search dscf1440.jpg in the photos section. Also check out my post under benchtop mills "Not Excactly a Benchtop Mill".. This unit is another of my hand built conversions and I think the only one like it in existence.

Hello and Good luck toyou!
huuphuc

Hi Adobe,
Thanks for your explainations on encoder at spindle . I will start to retrofit my lathe soon. Asuratman.

FPV GTp: Yes I should have said when you get to imserv, then click on quick lathe. That program also has quick turn,thread ( inside and out )drill and groove. All you do is fill in a couple of blanks and presto, the G code is written..Pretty standard G code, like I said we tested on my friends turning center and every function worked .They have a free down load, try it and see if that is what you need for your conversion.

How is your conversion going ? Also I have ment to ask you about your 4.0 Litre Turbo "Falcon" motor..is that like a Ford Falcon 6 cylinder in line ? Or a
V 6 ? What kind of boost pressure are you uising to generate that much H.P. ?
Alcohol or gas ? 1000 hp for 250 CID is just really screaming !Hope we get to see it when we travel to Aus. next year..

Adobe (old as dirt)


hi Adobe Machine

My conversion is at a stand still as I'm trying to figure out which electronics to use and software.

Yes there are guys downunder making well over 1400 bhp out of a Ford 4 liter inline 6 cylinder engines 24 valves ( 4 per cylinder , twin camsafts with vairiable cam timing ) and not to mention huge turbos hanging of the end of the engines

Some of these street driven cars weigh 1700kgs plus driver and running high nine second passes down the quarter mile.

Stock out of the factory the FPV_GTp runs 13.9 and i ran mine the quickest was 14.2 but i babyed it along the car weighs 1820kgs with all the options plus me another 120kgs , mine GTp is a 5.4 liter quad cam Modular V8 the same engine you guys have in ur american ford cars.

The Typhoons F6 stock runs 13.9 seconds also out a inline 6 cylinder turbo 4liter



Hi asuratman's , that is a nice setup of your lathe.

cheers

cool..my boat ran 6.79 ( alcohol hydro) , same year that some "Down Under" guys came to the World Finals at Firebird ( Phoenix) and ran an Alcohol Flatbottom..did real good too ( shipped the boat here from Aus.! )

Little supercharged '34 coupe ran 10s last year with nitrous..( one you have pics of ) but really runs nice on the street too.Still a long way to go on that project.being in a wheel chair sucks for getting things done.

Ready to begin on the Z axis Thursday, is much easier than the X axis was
Recieved the new DRO Monday as I like to use the DRO to campare with where the Software thinks it is..will post pictures.

Thanks..very intresting !

Adobe (old as dirt )

I got a break today, as the "skid steer" we rented to move some decorative rock around the yard took a hike in 10 minutes of use,so while waiting for their repaiman,I got to proceed with the lathe conversion.

Pratt Whitney machined a set of very handy "T" slots in the back of the machine for their Taper attachment. As mentioned before, I checked for parallel to the square ( rear ) way..Believe me, it is parrallel to .0003 ( best I could measure) man those old machinests knew their stuff..Had a friend come over with his super duper lazer measurement "do hicky" ( I could buy a lot of production tooling for what that thingy cost him, the lease payment for the system is a Porshe payment ! ) )and he said it was withen .0002, horizantle and verticle.. 4 cervasas and I'm happy !

Started with the Fixed Angular Bearing Mount spacer block. Cut a nice billit of 7073 " scrap" (LOL) to withen .040 of the final measurements..I was a little worried maybe should have been .060 as that is only .020 for each side to square..but last pass on the Tree Mill cleaned every thing up on all sides.
Cleaned up the vise, and started the Drill sequence,counter sink and other:
1) Attachment to the Lathe, using 1/2 13 allen head fastners. I wanted this real tight, so I used a 1/2 inch new jobber drill for the four positions, then reamed only .001..Had to push the 4 new fastners in,real tight.
2) Counter sink for the 1/2 Allen's (same drill program, change Z- only ) using my Iscar 3/4 Insert Mill..what an imrpovement over just a regular Carbide mill ( no more trips to the sharpen shop for this size, just change inserts ! ). This gives just .010 clearence on the Diameter ( bolt head size is .740 +) so everthing has to be alinged correctly.Some one said that 2 things will not fit in the same space at the same time (no matter how many times I've tried ). All fit, thanks to CNC.
3) Drill for 4, 3/8-16 "jack bolts" to change the plates relationship to square, only if needed..just a thing I do to insure some adjustability in "case" ( lots of those in life )
4) Using the same drill program and changing Z-, counter sink .600, using a 1/2" end mill.
5) Drill program for the Rockford fixed Angular Bearing Block ( 4 ea 3/8 16,
through , no blinds) I use an "0" drill instead of a 5/16 drill, seem to get better threads, and these threads must withstand torque and lots of cycles.
I do not use the CNC Mill to tap, I have a hand tapper and do not break taps off in almost compleated pieces..maybe I will get better at tapping into deep Alloy Aum.with out ever breaking a tap, but just not now.
6) Deburr, break edges, chamfer all drilled and tapped holes, top and bottom. Use 600 grit on both critile sides with blueing to check for high spots.
7) Assemble, lightley, no Torque, no hard pins , untill all parts for this axis are done and assembled.
Picture 1 and 2 : Cutting the billit 7073 T-6 to size. This big ole saw saves me lots of time, just set uo correctly and hit the lever ( auto feed ) I'm running 4500 SFM with medium table speed and lots of coolant.
Picture 4 and 5 : Using my retro fit Tree Mill to surface all sides in MDI.
Picture 6 and 7: Counter sink for the 1/2 -13 Allen Head Bolts using the Iscar Insert mill.
Picture 8 : Drilling with the "o" drill for 3/8 -16 threads, eight locations.
Picture 9 : Partial assembly, you can see the "Jack bolts " explained above.
I had to cut .170 off the 1/2 -13 bolts to make sure they would not dead head into the lathe body.
Picture 10 :closer photo of above
Pictures 11,12 and last : Mounted loosley in the approxamate final position.

Next: Mount for the Simple Radial Bearing mount the back to turing and threading the hard stuff..

Adobe ( old as dirt )

Hi Adobe,

Things are looking really great with your project.. THere is no substitute for old American Iron when it comes to manual machines... Where did it all go wrong,,, we taught the world and have lost most of it... The Japanese are the worlds copycats... Invent it here in the USA,, steal all the sweat and knowlege,, put a little time in to make it just a bit better and take the business.. Now the Chinese are emulating them.

I noticed in your last posting you were talking about broken taps.. I always roll thread aluminum parts rather than cut the thread.. I believe that it produces a stronger and more precise thread and tap breakage is almost impossible.

Dennis

my VMC at work can break form taps just fine :) haha, but rolled threads are indeed much stronger, and pretty

I guess maybe you could teach this old dog ( me ) some new tricks..Some where in the foggy mind I remember that it took a special machine (like a modified Swiss screw machine )to roll or form tap.. How do they set up a V-mill or a VMC to roll threads ?

I do use spiral taps almost exclusive in Alum. , they work much better than regular taps, but still have the possibility of breaking under power.And since I'm not in production just bite the bullet and use my hand tapper.

Occasionally I would bid some jobs a little cheap for "fillers" to keep every one working during slow times..I remember one job that had eleventy one thousand holes to tap ( seemed like ) and the part to drill and tap had a least 3-4 hrs machine time before tapping.After screwing up three or 4 pieces due to broken taps ( we could not get them out, customer would not accept next size up ) it did not take to much math to figure out we could hand tap a lot of holes compared to scraping the part.

dcprecision: Your right, I do not like to even think about our loss of the Machine Tool Industry and Manufacturing in the USA..My primary theory is that a lot of people just got greedy, The CEO's, the stock holders, even the unions...it became clear we could not COMPETE in a world market and they beat us . MY heart is sick over Ford Motor Co.s troubles right now..To think that another Amercian Co might be controlled by an overseas corp. just really hurts... And yes, I did buy my wife a Kia Sorento, It was better than any mid-priced, mid sized 4 wheel drive etc , auto we could find.The fit and finish is excellent,its a pleasrue to drive, fuel economy is good considering its a V6 and 4 wheel drive .Then there is the warrenty, 100,000 miles on drive train parts...Being retired and on a fixed income, we have to look at cars as "keepers", we would rather travel and see the US and maybe some countries overseas , rather than support a car. I do have a F250, with the diesel engine, this is my last Truck, so it needs to last a long time. Will say I'm very pleased with this truck..Have had one small warrenty incident, no other.Did buy a power programmer and man did that wake up the engine. If I can just keep my foot out of it, gets excellent ( 22 +) mpg. Guess things will just have to sort out..hope we are not leaving our grand children a mess.

A long time friend bought a Fadel 2030 with a very expensive 4th axis..By the time he tooled up his investment was $100,000. plus..I was really impressed with the machine, but he has a 4 page list of problems over the last 3 years.
The big problem being machine time lost ( and some mad customers) Most of the problems have been quality related, and some of the jerks sent out to fix the machine when it broke down. He won't buy another one.In looking through this forum looks like he was not alone..

Adobe (old as dirt)

I try to keep the faith and have purchased 5 new ford and lincoln products over the last 10 yrs... I think part of the problem is as you stated being the greedy managment resting on their laurels and sweet union deals, but the real problem was and still is with the LAWYERS.... Workers comp claims costs stifeling competition because of wholesale fraud and abuse, healthcare costs out of control because of malpractice.. States and the fed lawyers taking a punative tax attitude toward business,,(political lawyers) and also the lazy instant gratification attitude promoted by todays media exposure.. I could go on and on but enough of this...........

So far as roll taps are concerned,, they are forming rather than cutting taps and work by displacing metal. They work in any softer ductile material.. The hole drilled is larger than the hole for a cut thread because the material flows inward to form the thread. Appearance is similar to a conventional tap but without the gullets and typically have a somewhat triangular shape. Usage is identical to a conventional tap but but without the associated chips to jamb and cause problems. Tapping speeds are typically 50 to 70% of drilling speed.. I do a 3/8-16 at 815 rpm and a #6 at 1700. I stated in a previous post that it was fairly impossible to break a tap and I do believe that to be true with the exception being that if you bottom one out in a blind hole it will definitly break off. I have probably tapped well over 250,000 holes at high speed without a single tap ever breaking because it jambed. I use # 6 - # 8 = 1/4-20 and 3/8-16 sizes..

I can post drill sizes for various threads if anyone is interested.

dcprecision: Is that a rigid tap set up, or a soft collet ? and who is the supplier..yes would like drill sizes !
Thanks

Adobe (old as dirt )

I do all tapping with Tapmatic tapping heads including those done on my cnc machines. I have one mill that has instantaneous reverse capability and do tap with a rigid configuration at low rpm on it manually on unique or non production parts.

These "thread forming" taps are available from any major supplier such as MSC, Mc Master, and Enco. I like the Greenfield and Cleveland brands best. I usually purchase the bottoming variety for most work because you dont have cuttings in the way.. Keep in mind that holes must be free from metal chips before tapping.

I will post drill sizes later today.

Hi Adobe,

I have posted a table of roll tap drill sizes under the General Metal Working Machines heading as a PDF attachment.

Dennis

Thanks from a lot of us, I'm going to buy a couple of sizes and try them ( you know, one of them gotta have tools ? )


Adobe ( old as dirt )

Onward with the long (Z) axis: The simple Z axis end mount was essentially the same mount as the Fixed Angular end, except there are only 2 tapped
( 3/8-16) block mount holes, but still used 4 ( 1/2-13) adaptor mounts to the machine. I was able to use all of the same G code generated by Vector CAD/CAM as the 1st mount, I just killed two holes. I did not put any jack bolts in, as I felt that any correction needed will come from the fixed end, if needed.
You can see the machine to blocks relationship in the pictures. The blocks are not torqued or pinned at this point, I plan to mount a mag base dial indicator with the Z axis shaft mounted and the ball nuts installed and "track" the shaft through its entire distance after all is installed. After tracking and adjusting, will torque to specs, run the machine for awhile , then pin all bearing mounts.I have, in the past, pinned too early, only having to bow down to the mistake God three times..and other.

Since the Z axis ball screw is so long, I have found that it is imperitive that the other end of the shaft is stablized , not just the chuck end., and since the Soft jaws I made are alum., it is even more mandatory, as the shaft will tend to whip and move, making a clean, accurate shaft end impossible.
For lack of a better word, I call it a lathe" Butt Plug". I turn the O.D. to the lathe shaft I.D. and bore the center to the shaft I'm turning , in this intance, it is .631. The Butt Plug is an interferance fit, and I just tap it in, then insert the shaft I'm turning. You would be suprised how well this helps center the turned shaft. The pictures illustrate how the plug fits.

Next is turning the ends of the long Z shaft..This is just hard stuff, can only take .050 DOC at slow..( boring..)just takes time, if you get anxious, you will
scrap it, or end up with a mess, and possibly broken tooling. The specs for the bearing mount shaft area is in tenths, and you want to split those specs as close as possible for a proper fit and correctly performing machine.

Picture 1. Finished and installed simple end bearing mount. Note: None of the mounts are torqued to specs, or pinned.

Picture 2. Longer view of above to show relationship on the machine.

Picture 3. This is the fixed end,to show how the shaft will fit.

Picture 4. Found some more 6061 scrap round stock and turned to I.D. of lathe drive shaft, plus .0005, nice interferance fit, then bored to .6315.

Picture 5. "Butt Plug" installed, with shaft .

Picture 6. Closer picture of the plug and shaft.

Picture 7. Start on turning one end of the shaft.

Next: Finish the shaft, mount and track.build the ballnut mount to carriage and scrape in to eliminate bind.

Adobe (old as dirt)

A quick question, what spec motors are you planning on using to drive the x&z axis?

Machine Tool Camp, series 32 ,672 in/oz servos with US Digital encoders. The total reduction ( both avis) will be 7.2 :1, so there will be plenty of torgue and at 3500 rpm max , 80 IPM . Considering the long Z axis is only 30 ", will cover Z+ to Z- in less than 30 seconds.I may have to limit G00 to 40-50 IPM cause I can"t think that fast anyway.


Adobe (old as dirt)

Finished turning and threading the the X ( Long ) axis ball shaft. I changed the thread type to a 7/16 -20 , as I did not like the supplied fastners..They are difficult to torque correctly, so on the X axis I will use grade 8 double nuts.
1st nut against the bearing spacer is for torgue, the second is to lock.

I have a couple of pictures of the tooling I use to turn and thread. Even with a marginal lathe, with the correct inserts and holders, you can do a very professional job while turning and threading hard alloy steels.The key is set up, feeds and speeds and the correct inserts. My threading kit has profiling inserts for all threads, 8 to 24 threads per inch.They are engineered to cut perfect threads, and using the last ( spring pass) eliminate burrs. In the "old days" we struggled to thread with 60 degree cutters, these newer type profile inserts certinley achieved excellent results at an economical price. I have had this kit for over 3 years, and only had to replace one insert, as I bumped it against the shoulder on the last pass. My son and I (mostly him ) are rebuilding a Travel Air Bi Plane ( 1929 ) and he had attempted to cut some threads on his mini lathe with disappointing results.We then used my profile inserts and the threads came out excellent, and this using some tough, hard round stock.Pass any FAA inspection.
The same is true on just regular turning. When we started using these Valenite MCLN holders with the CNMP type positive rake inserts, our product came out much better, and quicker ! You reduce the cutting forces with these cutters, so your not "pushing" the tool and the turned part away from each other, giving an excellent finish in alloy steel and believe it or not, Alum. With alum. I usually use these cutters and finish cutters, but have also used them ( when I got lazy, did not want to change tooling ) to hog..like .250 depth of cut..The only thing with these holders and inserts they are big at the working end and if you are using a live center, hard to get in to cut the last inch or so, so you would use a left handed cutter if that was the situation.
I did notice that EMCO and some of the other discount tool supplies had the same style holder and inserts ,real economical. I've never tried those Asian imports, but would think they would be ok. Most of Kennemetal and Valanite holders and some inserts are comming from Isreal and their quality is excellent.In fact I purchased a 3 insert end mill ( 3/4 ") from Iscar.I have to tell you, that thing will make some chips in a hurry !
Another industry going over seas , real sad.
After finishing the ball shaft, I milled the "Link" between the apron and X axis ball nut flange.As WALT @ SGS had suggested in another thread, I hand lapped the surfaces between the apron and link and the ball nut flange and link.
In order to determine where to locate the center hole to pass the shaft through, and subsequent taped holes for the ball nut flange, I made a "pilot" shaft and turned a centered point on it.This pilot shaft had the same O.D. as the fixed angular bearings I.D. less .0003. I assembled the link to the apron, and brought it as close to the Fixed end as I could.I inserted the pilot thru the bearings and used it to mark the center.
Using Vector CAD/CAM, and my Tree Mill, I started X0Y0 at center of the shaft hole and interpolated a hole @ .700, then drilled 4 ea .201 holes for a 1/4 20 tap, and hand tapped those holes.

Next is: reloading the ball nut and installation on the machine.

Picture 1 : Simple end turning is done.

Picture 2 : Z Axis "Link" long look

Picture 3 & 4 a look at the tooling used for threading and turning.

Even using double ball nuts, I still stuff the front ( fixed, the one with the flange ) baLL nut with oversize balls ( chrome steel, 52100, grade 25), and just use the factory balls in the tension nut ( the tension nut does not drive, it only puts tension on the ball nut and the shaft )
In the pictures below, you can see how I set up to reload ball nuts.
1st I set the shaft in the lathe, and clean the shaft. Next I empty the factory balls in one container. I measure at least 30% of the balls, to determine if they loaded with oversize or staggered. They did not, all factory balls measured .1248 to .1249..close enough. I then prepped 2 dishes for oversize balls (.1252 and .1253) and marked my table that I use under the shaft for tools and to have a "catcher" plastic dish in case one gets dropped ( only 2 today). Then I load the empty ball nuts and hardware on the shaft and remount on the lathe...I shift the lathe in neutral and turn off the electrical to the lathe OFF as a saftey item. I begin loading, one ball in each, turn the chuck while holding the nuts and watch the balls disappear, keep loading and turning the same direction. I do keep the nut wet with oil, putting a little in every 3-4 balls.Pretty soon you can see balls appearing in the other side of the circut, do not let them go past where the tubes go in, they will forever be in no mans land and not recirculate !Next, use vasoline ( if a cool day, grease if a hot day) and fill 1/2 of the split recirculating tube with balls, then press the 2 sides together and install on the nut.I do install fastners at this time. It is important to turn the ball nut through the entire range, see if binds or jumps, or is loose. This was not any of the above, no the next step is installation of the shaft on the machine.

Picture 1 : My way of settting up and organising to stuff balls.

Picture 2 & 3 : Unloaded nuts and hardware on the shaft.

Picture 4 : Containers and tools

Picture 5 : Almost done

Picture 6 : Done

Picture 7: After running up and down the shaft, now ready for install.

Next : Installation of the ballshaft, testing for backlash, torquing fastners,and running the Z axis through the full 33" inches.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Installation of the ball shaft to the machine : With everything machined and done , and if I have measured everything correctly, it will fit as planned. No proplems loading, then I installed the ball nut and flange on the link ( Note, one is a stud to guide together) then tighten down.The bolt pattern was right on, but there is no play even with the fastners not tightned. I then ran the carraige to the fixed end and slightly tightned the fixed end angular bearing mount to the machine ( 25 lbs torque only ). then ran the carriage to the simple end and repeated. I then ran the carriage back and forth to the limits of each end about a dozen time, using my battery powered drill. No binding, no heat . The with one hand I turned the carriage to both limits, no binds.
At this time I torqued all fastners (to specs.) involved in the Z axis and repeated turning by hand the full distance and back. I did lubricate the balls and shaft a couple of times, then used my battery powered drill, ran the axis back and forth untill both batteries were dead. No heat, no binds exceptionally smooth.
I set up my tenths indicator as shown, at this time there is NO BACKLASH. I even had a neighbor ( at least 240 lbs ) push against the apron and we could see no movement .Untill the machine is making chips and under a good load, it would not be right to say there is 0 backlash, just at this time there is none.

Next. Machining the mountings for the servos, belts, tensioners and covers.I ordered a bellows to protect the ball shaft, will have to engineer mounts.

Pictures 1 & 2 :Installed ball nuts and shafts. The lower left fastner is the guide stud.

Pictures 4 and 5 Dial indicator set up to measure backlash.

Picture 6& 7 : Link and simple end.

Picture 8 : Ballnuts, shaft and Fixed angular end ( my shorty 11/16 end wrench was used to determine backlash)

Picture 9: Battery powered drill motor as a driver to test the Z Axis.

Picture 10. Torquing all fastners and bearing mounts.

Next : A cervasa. ( hey, its Saturday, right ? )

Adobe (old as dirt )

Hello.

I own a small company in Portugal, where we have 3 latches. They work all day long, and we do, as all others companys near us, small quantities pieces.

I already made a cnc plasma cutter and a router mostly for wood. I have a difficult time in obtain pieces for both machines, and they probably cost me 2 times the price for you guys in Canada or USA. Both machines are payed with the work that they done.

I am very interested in your project, and I would like to know if you have work for the machine after it is done. Simple question, but the most important to me.
This question is because, if I have a cnc latch in my workshop, I don't know if work will apper to work on it.
I also think (know) that there is not and cnc latch in a 300 Km (arround 200 miles). So this could mean a opportonity ...

What do you think, or what others think about it ?
Any sucess storys of a guy that both a cnc and got lots of work ? Doing what ?


Thanks

Well, I had an accident 3 1/2 years ago that put me in a wheel chair. I make parts for Hot Rods, street rods and some race cars ( 1/4 mile drags) We had already sold our business of 35 years.( Manufacturing and Machine shop ) I had planned on retiring, working part time in my home shop, but it is real hard to operate a manual machine from a wheel chair.I 1st converted an old Tree Mill to CNC (one in the pictures) and that was so much fun and worked so well , decided to convert my Pratt Whitney Lathe to CNC.
Would it be economical ? Including a DRO, all the electronics,servos, electronic cabnet, wiring , ball screws, double ball nuts and misc fastners, I will have spent about $ 3800.00.I have owned the lathe since new
( purchased in 1969 never used, but manufactured in the mid 50's ) and taken real good care of it..so the decision was pretty easy. I just did not want to buy a used NC or CNC lathe and retrofit, then find mechanical problems.
To evaluate your situation as income vs cost would be imposible..If you found a good manual lathe and did the retrofit your self it might be economical and make a good business decision.It also could be a big" boat anchor" taking up room in your shop.Most depends on your skill leval and determination to make an accurate piece of machinery.
There are a lot of people on the Forum who can help you on the electrical end, because my education was not in electrical, I bought a complete kit from Machine Tool Camp, that made it easy for me and it uses matched items.
Most of the material used was scrap 6061 t6 and 7073 t 6 alum that I have been scounging for years. All fastners are # 8, and I'm real particular on correct torque and assembly procedures.I purchased complete fixed angular bearing mounts and used premium Barden bearings, as opposed to trying to "re-invent the wheel"and make the housings myself. In reading this forumn and searching you can see that most backlash problems are created by poor bearing mounts and poor planning.
Let me say this , in being in business for myself for 35 years.... if you do quality work, are honest with your employees and customers and can do something no one else does in the area, you have a good chance of being sucessfull.If you retrofit a lathe to CNC you may have to go out and advertise your new capability, but you may find even your competitors will use you for hard to lathe items. ( Profiling, threading tapers etc ).
If you get to the point you have decided to go ahead with a conversion, I can give a list of parts and suppliers to help you get started.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Thank you.

I think I can handle an entire retrofit. I am able to do the electrical part, machanical and if necessary I can write a program to output gcode (I am not trying to say that I am good, but I think I can). I have done this before to my plasma table and my router, that were done from scratch.

The most important is if it will be work for the machine and the limitation of the machine, 1,2,3 or more tools ?

For example to do a simple sphere. How many tools are needed ? One for the one half of the sphere and another to the back of the sphere. ?!

Thank you for your replay.

Filipe

Tooling : I only use carbide inserted tools, main tools are left and right hand
MCLN shanks and the CNMP or CNMP/E 80 degree diamond shaped inserts, some with negative and some with a little positive rake, I use profiled tools for internal and external threading, as the picture above shows. We have drawer fulls of boring bars, a lot we made from HSS years back for groving
( o rings) and special applications, but my favorites are SI-STFC (R &L) for internal boring. Frankley, a lot of the tooling I have are from years of collecting, but do not use many HSS tools any more.
In tooling one of the 1st considerations is ridgidness..and the ability to cut with out a lot of cutting force. Using the MCLN tools with the CNMP carbide inserts reduced cutting forces substantially, therefore able to increase cycle times.
The only limitations of an open bed CNC lathe will be your ability to program: I use a CAD/CAM program ( Vector) to draw the part and convert the G code, it has taken me awhile to get comfortable with using it, but I do not know how we ever got by with out this type of program..I also bought a threading,turning and groving program put together by Fred Smith at Im serv, this is just fill in the blanks, and presto the G code is spit out.Really nice, well thought out program, and the ISO G code is pretty standard .
The other draw back is right now I have no automatic tool changer, but have looked at some internet plans that seem pretty easy to fabricate and install. After all the bugs are sorted out , then I will get serious about an ATC.
This will not be a high dollar turning center, mearly a very accurate CNC open bed lathe, that is a lot more versital than a manual one. If I need a manual lathe, there is a 17X60 Le Blond sitting next to it.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Fabrication and trial fit of the X axis belt cover/ servo support.

I found A 10" piece of 6061-t6 round stock that I've been hording for years, has a little storage/moving damage on the O.D., but fills a need for the X axis pully/belt cover and servo mount.

Fabricated a 3/8 flat stock of 6061 t-6 for a spacer that also serves as a stiffner for the Z axis link to the X axis bearing mount, which is also the link to the Apron, this should stiffen all of the Z axis functions.

Will let the pictures do the talkin' as they say...

Picture 1: Hoggin out the X axis pully/belt/servo support cover.

Picture 2: This is my 1978 or 1979 Tree Mill ( originally 2 axis) converted to 3 axis . using a 3 insert, Iscar 3/4" mill..56 IPM X.100 doc @ (estm ) 4500 spindle RPM...just makin' lots of chips !

Picture 3: Buried deep and runnin' hard..( wish I could )

Picture 4: Almost done., if you can see my DRO indicates X at .00059, and Y
at .0000, The Desk CNC screen shows X @ .0000 and Y @ .0000 , heck after all that rockin' and rollin', the 27 (28?) year old mill is off maybe .0006 or so..not bad considering age eh ?
(next post)

Adobe (old as dirt)

More : Pictures 5 and 6 surfacing the back side with a 2 ", 3 insert cutter.

Picture : 7and 8 , pocket and both front and back sides finished.

Picture : Re-set up, intropolating a 3.2 inch center hole for the pully hub access.

Picture: Just truckin', this Insert mill is making chips like crazy !

Picture: 3.2" hole is done, measured out of round is less than .0003 if I measure correctly ( and I can measure correctly ) I did have to deburr the edges before I measured the circle ( 8 places). Gonna take me longer to clean the mess than the machine time ~!

Picture: You can see how all of the Z componets and X axis componets come together. The round plug you see in the middle is a piece I turned to locate the cover on the X axis..And make sure that the located drilled holes were correct to the center of the X shaft.

Picture: View front of lathe to rear.

Picture: You can see how the cover is located.

Picture: Long view with the locating plug removed

Picture: Closer view

More Pictures next.

OK some of the pics are not in order..I think most of you are intelligent enough to figure out how I fu..k..d the order..

any way these pictures are why I must, must have a CNC mill and Lathe !

Adobe (old as dirt )

Keep em coming :drool:

Fomaz:Maybe this could help your questions on the spindle control:
go to http://www.cadcamcadcam.com-Lathe Encoder kit-40436, look at that then on the left side is Desk CNC, hit that and look at Desk CNC software and controller..They also have "lathe quick software" hit and open..
There are some limited free down loads that will give you an idea what can be done very economically..as far as a controller and software.
I'm just a real KLUTZ when it comes to computors and software, but these programs have made it real easy..did I say I still use a slide rule ? ( I do !)..my children really laugh when I pull it out and challenge them to solve math problems faster ( they beat me every time if they use this computor, O well )

Adobe (old as dirt)

Fomaz:Maybe this could help your questions on the spindle control:
go to http://www.cadcamcadcam.com-Lathe Encoder kit-40436, look at that then on the left side is Desk CNC, hit that and look at Desk CNC software and controller..They also have "lathe quick software" hit and open..
There are some limited free down loads that will give you an idea what can be done very economically..as far as a controller and software.
I'm just a real KLUTZ when it comes to computors and software, but these programs have made it real easy..did I say I still use a slide rule ? ( I do !)..my children really laugh when I pull it out and challenge them to solve math problems faster ( they beat me every time if they use this computor, O well )

Adobe (old as dirt)


Link is:
http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=104

Thank you... I wrote the lathe software :)

Nice work Adobe Machine!!

Wow..Wayne I can not say enough good about that program...I took it over to a friend of mine that has a high dollar turning center with a Funac control..He was astounded, and a little bit bummed as he had just paid some big bucks for a program that was not as user friendly, and your program actually was faster.All we had to do was edit some G code for his particular machine.
Couple your program with a decent CAD CAM program ( I'm using Vector) and you essentially have what some have paid $ $ $ $ for and gotta kick in more every year.

From me and I'm sure a lot of people using your program, THANKS !

Adobe (old as dirt)

X axis servo mount, belt cover: I found some scrap 6061 T 6 that had the correct deminsions to duplicate the round portion and enough length. Cut to size using my Power Matic 24 inch verticle band saw ( I saw alum at 4600 SFM, medium table speed..get a real good , accurate cut, almost as good as machined ) and cleaned up an old piece of 1/4" non structual alum for a sacrificial bottom, as this big of piece could not be cut in the vice.( table mount )

Pictures 1-2-3-4 :Show the set up and machining, using my Iscar 3 insert, 74 IPM at 4600 spindle ( estm ) and .200 doc.

Picture 5 : you can see the scrap starting to come off.I actually machined the sacrifical alum about .001 to .002, The good material measured .425,that was my Z drop (-),so maybe the Z is off by .001, or I was .001 above when I touched off the tool, hard to tell, but if there is a mistake, its usually me.

Picture 6-7: After finishing the O.D. of the servo support, assembled to the belt cover on the machine so that I could drill, countersink and tap as one assembly. I used some witness marks so I could make sure the alingment was spot on.There are 9 fastner holes ( 5/16 allen ). I only countersunk .150, as I wanted good material for clamping.

Picture 8: Top view of unit.

Next:Machine servo mount. I "sink" the servo outer mount in .130, and counter sink the locating boss as much. The plate is flat mounted with the sacrificial 1/4 " junk alum. on the Tree Mill table,and the CAM program is ready, so 1st thing in the morining, get to push buttons.. ! Then assembly.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Machined the Servo mount, which includes a .130 recess for the square servo flange, the round locator and 4 ea .215 holes matching the servo flange. I like to recess the flange and make it tight so there is no possibility of the servo "walking" under high torque conditions. It was tight allright,the servo flange used a hickey radius on the four corners, so had to dress them to fit the 1/2" radius I had in Vector CAD CAM, O well, took an hour or so of filling and hand fitting.I also drilled and reamed one 1/2" hole, and slotted another for the guide and tensioner ( They are actually called "stud bearings" have a quality bearing 3/4 inches wide with a 1/2 -20 stud with provisions to lube..really nice for a tensioner and guide.) After I got every thing cleaned up, deburred and holes chamfered, installed the drive and driven pullys and loaded everything on the lathe..Everything fit, even the belt length was correct as I used very little of the milled slot to tension the belt.I used a little anti-seize on all the fastners, but have not torqued to specs yet, just brought to almost tight.
Ran the servo with the battery from my Hot Rod, and I was suprised how quick the X axis went with only 12 volts. The power supply for this is going to be 80 volts,so the limit switches are going to be necessary with that kind of speed.

Picture 1& 2: The completed, milled parts, ready for a trial fit. The 1/2 inch nuts you see on the servo mount are the stud ends of the tensioner and guide.Using Vector CAD program, I was able to determine an obtimal position for the guide and the tensioner so as to get at least a 50% wrap on the driving pully. You can also see the reccess for the servo flange at .130.

Picture 3: Servo mount backside, and here you can see the tensioner/guide and their locations.

Picture 4 :is a closer view of the servo mount / belt cover.

Picture 5:Trial assembly..hmm.. everything fit correctly the first time .

Picture 6: Assembly from above

Picture 7: X axis drive group is ready to go..

Next: A cold Bud, it is Saturday, right ?
Then start making parts for the Z axis drive group.

A couple of quick questions for the experts. Would you not wire all overtravel switches parallel ? By that I mean, if one is tripped it kills all axis ?

Thanks

Adobe (old as dirt )

Start of Z axis servo drive:Cut a piece of 6061 T-6 plate for the Servo motor support. Using Vector CAD CAM I machined the servo mount recess .130, the # 10 holes and the face circle, then machined all of the mount holes. I did not round the corners and trim the outside yet, will do that when the entire unit is assembled, then do a quick perimeter pass with a 3/4 endmill.

Next, cut and machined 4ea, 1 1/2 by 1 1/2 inch steel pieces that will stiffen the plate from "torque curl", drilled and tapped then assembled to the servo plate.

Using Vector CAD CAM again, I cut clearences for the large upper pully, belt, tensioner, guide and cut the adjusting groove for the tensioner..

Using the same set up, I surfaced the assembled steel blocks so as to have a clean,flat surface to mount the back plate.

During a trial fit on the lathe, I found that the end of the lathe had some casting bumps ( hey, if you were that old you might have some "bumps" too)
that I must leval before installation to insure that the servo support plate is 90 degrees to the Z axis ball screw.

I also ordered my Ingus support for the wiring that will move with apron and the Z axis DRO wiring, they said about 6 days on that. I'm watching Erics
( the Widgetmaster) installation of a new DRO on his lathe, for some good ideas on my installation of the DRO on my conversion. Even with CNC, I sure like a DRO that shows actual position. I find little , if any error on my Tree CNC retrofit, but find myself looking at the DRO as much as the screen position.

Next: cut, drill countersink and install the rear plate to the assembled servo mount plate.

Pictures 1,2 & 3 Servo mount plate, servo mount machined, holes drilled, 1 1/2 by 1 1/2 stiffners/ spacers machined, drilled and tapped. I have not cleaned up the edges or rounded the corners, as that will be done as one unit with the back plate installed.

Pictures 4,5 &6: Partially assembled, then milling for clearence on the large pully, for the tensioner, guide and belt. then the slot for tensioner.

Pictures 7&8: Surfacing the stiffner/spacer blocks for a clean, flat surface to mount the back plate.

Pictures 9& 10, Overall view, just a mock up too illustrate how the componets will fit when assembled to the lathe.

A couple of quick questions for the experts. Would you not wire all overtravel switches parallel ? By that I mean, if one is tripped it kills all axis ?



Depends on the logic, if they are normally-open then they would be wired in parallel (OR'd).
If normally-closed type then they would all be wired in series.
(AND'ed).
The normal method is the latter, N.C.
Al.

Al The Man : Thank you very much for you help, I will wire in series as you suggest.

Next newbie electronic question. The program I'm using ( Desk CNC ) supports a homing switch. I have over travel on my Retro fited Tree Mill, but never used the homing sequence, as I just make home where wanted on the table. With an open bed CNC lathe , is there any particular advantage to having X and Z axis "home" ?

Again, thanks for the reply.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Adobe We are in parallel universe. I am right now in ACAD on my other computer designing a combination spindle & "C" type axis for a different conversion. I have room under the spindle itself for the servo/ spindle motor, so I place it there and tension the belt with the motor attached to a plate that can be adjusted & locked in place by screws. That way the motor is out of the way & out of danger. Later

is there any particular advantage to having X and Z axis "home" ?


If you have many programs that you wish to use over and over I would say that if you have a zero position initially then you don't have to go to the bother of setting a ref manually, also it probabally depends on how you customarily write programs.
Someone like Hu may give you a more definitive answer from a machinist point of view.
Al.

Richard Zastrow: Cool, do we get pictures of that project ? And maybe some on your Tree if you buy ?

I spent a good part of the day hand scraping the end of the lathe where the Z axis servo plate will be attached .Used lots of blueing to scrape in, but good cast iron is not that bad, kinda fun, but do not think I would want to make a living hand scaping , my arms and shoulders are toast tonight. Did get it flat, and the plate is 90 degrees to the shaft,so some assembly tomorrow and the Z drive will be done.I still will not pin or torgue to specs, as I have to pull the assembly apart once , to install the ball shaft bellow covers.
Will post the compleated Z axis photos tomorrow.

Next will be the build on the control panel and installing the spindle encoder.I have been looking at a mechanical tach I have from a past project ( crashed Fuel Flat bottom boat ) and I may incorporate that in the control panel. Reminder of foolish days past .

Al The Man: Again , thanks..I think I will work with the lathe awhile, get everything working correct and safe, then review a home switch.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Rechecked the scraping and leveling that I did on Saturday, it was acceptable,(gotta tell you , my arms and shoulders are still sore from scraping) so I took the Z axis assembly as a unit and clamped it to the machine, lined up the center of the shaft using a plug I turned on Le Blond lathe that matched the OD of the machined hole for the pully flange, then bored a center hole that matched the OD of the Z axis shaft where it is machined on the end.This worked OK, except the unit assembled was a lot heavier than I could handle from the wheel chair.My wife came out and helped, but there was a little oil or WD Forty on the unit and it slipped out of her hands..No one got hurt , just a little scar on the bottom of the assembly, so what the heck..took a few with the file , looks ok ( like you can see it any way,its about a 1/16th above the lathe catch pan )

Drilled and tapped the six mount holes..Good cast iron, took awhile, then mounted and rechecked center with the plug..looked spot on.Assembled the upper ( large ) pully, the servo and its pully, both the guide and tensioner, then the belt.I was a little tighter on this measurment than the X drive, as it tightned up with the tensioner moved just a little off the O position. Installed the back cover, hooked up the battery from My Hot Rod and ran the axis back and forth a lot. I was really suprised how fast 12 volts will drive the axis, saw no binding and for what and how I was doing the test, seemed real smooth ( not a real scientific test )I did retest back lash, and there is none, but again not under cutting conditions, so its kinda of a no account test..

The pictures show the installed drives for both X and Z, and their relation to each other.I have to partially disassemble the Z axis when the protective Z axis ball shaft bellows arrive, mount the sender for the DRO,and mount the Ingus for the wires that will move with the saddle.

Next: Design and machine a control panel that will have the machine ON switch, Emergancy Stop Switch,servo amp switch, coolant over ride switch, and a spindle tacometer . I will leave enough room for other up grades and switches if needed. I am going to use Desk CNC and Vector to Engrave the function of the switch under the cut out for the switch, then use a good paint, let it dry and sand off the excess so the engraved names really stand out..Man I like CNC, I can remember when we had to machine part numbers in the compleated part with a Manual Mill , what a PITA that was..


Adobe (old as dirt)

Hey, any suggestions on a panel layout is greatly appreciated !

Control Panel and housing . Using Vector, drew up the control panel, printed it out on a 1 to 1 basis,glued to a piece of cardboard and tested for fit and ease of operation from my wheel chair and shop stool, felt comfortable, so I cut out the material from a large piece of 6061 t-6 alum. (.25") and milled all of the switch holes, the hole for the tachometer and the opening for the foward/reverse spindle motor. Also engraved all of the switch functions
( note, the ALT 2 is for the spindle 2 speed motor relay, 1150 RPM or 1750 RPM) Used some "Candy Apple Red " base paint left over from painting the Hot Rod frame, brushed into the engraved names and let it dry. Used a 180 grit wet or dry paper then a 400 grit wet or dry and sanded the whole panel, cleaned it up ok ( Most of the alum. I'm using is salvalged from jobs many years ago, and storage has not been pristine to say the least, so either I have to surface it or sand it..1/4" alum does not surface real well, wants to curl,so I sand it.
I've sent my manual Tachometer to be cleaned , recalibrated and new a face plate with numbers, they are changing the spring inside so the range of the tach is from "0" to 3000 rpm (instead of 9000 rpm ) The old tach has gotten wet a couple of times, as I crashed the Blown Fuel Flat it was in more than once, suprised there was not more rust inside, but looked pretty clean.I'm using the Hot Rod tachometer for mock up.
Got the sides cut, will fit and cut the top tomorrow, then drill/tap for all of the fastners. The DRO will be directly above the control panel using the really nice bracket they sent to mount the head on, which will allow the Head to tilt or turn as needed.I have the same type of DRO on my mill, very nice looking units , the one on the mill performs good, has lots of functions ( some I use )for 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a domestic one.The instruction language is old kings english and ?, but the units are very good quality. Real sad..just wonder what kind of mess we are leaving our grand kids with everything going overseas.I'm afraid my generation will be remembered as the ones that let it go to sh.. in a hand basket...
All of the wiring will go to the control cabnet mounted directly behind the machine, the top of the control /electrical cabnet will be at the same leval as the top of the control panel.
The following pictures are just mock up, to make sure everything will fit, but should have it assembled by this week end.

Adobe (old as dirt )

I always look forward to the email with a new post in here :cheers: Looks good as always bud!

Thanks for the kind words Kipper, I have been held up this weekend as we had some "unexpected guests" that are requiring a tour of the beauitiful area we live in, so will be tomorrow before I can get back to it..again thanks

Adobe (old as dirt )

Extremely sweet

E

I skipped over an item on the Z axis drive assembly: As you can see in the
1st picture,there is a round plate attached to the back plate of the Z axis drive cover.I located and machined a pocket for a precision ball bearing that fits the end of the Z axis ball screw shaft. This gives absolute support to the end of the Z axis ball shaft, so that there can be no bending of the shaft under hard torque. In other words, there is the fixed angular bearing and housing, then the drive pully, then the precision ball bearing.

Completed the Control Panel assembly, drilled the sides for the cable supports,installed the electrical cabnet, installed the DRO mount, drilled the electrical cabnet and put in six bulkhead connectors for all of the circuts that are a part of the control panel. I have not drilled and tapped the fastners for the top of the control panel assembly untill all of the wiring is done, but it fit so tight had to use a screw driver to pry up and off.

Next, will start drilling and tapping the electrical cabnet mount plate for the electronic componets, then start wiring , but that might be awhile, as I enter the hosbital next week for 4 days ( 3rd fusion)then will be down for a couple of days after that.

Picture 1. Precision bearing mount, end of Z axis.

Pictures 2,3,4,&5Different views of the control panel assembly and Electrical cabnet.

Picture 6, long front view

Pictures 7and 8View from the tail stock end.

picture 9 inside of electrical cabnet showing the six bulk head fittings.

Picture 10 & 11 shows inside of the control panel assembly..You can see the support straps and the back side of the bulkhead fittings.

Adobe (old as dirt )

Started on the sub panel and mounting the electronic componets. I bought the electrical Enginering kit from Machine Tool Camp.They make it easy for an electrical challenged person like me, supplying a complete list ( down to the drill size)of needed parts,supplies and a 1 to 1 chart that you can use to position, punch and drill for all componets, then a circut by circut wiring diagram that would be real hard to mess up, even with colors !
The Machine Tool Camp system takes you step by step through the test procedure and final hook up.The little I paid for their engineered machine solution and book is cheap compared to frying componets and wondering why it will not work.

Picture 1 is the blank sub panel,

Picture 2 & 3 show the 1 to 1 position and punch chart, along with the tap, drill and decimal sizes.

Picture 4 shows the componets , not including the wire duct, which I will cut and mount tomorrow.

There is one componet position I changed , having a fit problem with my mill set up and that is the orientation of the Desk CNC Control Card, it needs to be rotated 90 degree, as the interface cable from the P.C. is put into a real bind.

Next: finish and install the componets on the sub panel, then wire the Desk CNC Controller and the Servo Amps while the sub panel is still out and laying down, then wire everything else after the sub panel is installed..

I finally got a ship date on the Ball Screw covers today. (ordered and paid for 3 weeks ago ) Still no ship date on the Igus assembly, but can get around that.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Here are the pictures:

Adobe (old as dirt)

Thank you very much Balsaman, I have been following your thread " 2 cylinder Inline water Cooled" and really in awe at the craftmanship and accuracy that you have in building your little motor.That really takes some concentration and patience..Very nice work. In fact, I have noticed how many fine machinests live in Canada..Maybe your long winters ?.. Again thanks

Adobe (old as dirt)

Electronics and controls: As I stated, I'm "Electronically Challenged", so this part is a slow go..I check and re-check, test each as I go, and solder each wire at all connections. I manufactured speciality construction equipment
( Asphalt) the last 12 years in business, and found most of the reliability problems were in the electronics, deriving from poor connections and bad grounds..Getting called out at 0400 in the morning by a mad customer that had just purchased your machine was not nice..especially when they had about 15 people standing around, all on the clock..talk about feeling about 2 inches tall when you find all it was is a poor connection..man did I change the way we assembled the electrical system in a hurry. All connections soldered, all connections with heat shrink, avoiding "hidden" connections you could not check with out spending hours tearing things apart..so to say,
the least,I'm cautious when asembling electronics.
Drilled and tapped the sub panel according to directions from Machine Tool Camp,changing a few items. The "Magic" box ( Desk CNC control Card) required 4-40's instead of 10-24's as called for, but I remember that snafu from doing the Tree Mill, and I changed the orintation so that the USB to serial cable is not in a bind. Although for right now I'm only installing Servo Amplifiers for the X and Z axis only, but left room and drilled and tapped for 2 more , as I'm now in the process of designing a 6 Tool Auto Tool Changer that will use a small servo and air to operate.
Installed all of the wire gutters, the servo amps, the 2 solid state relays ( 5 volts DC, switch 110-240 volts, 10 amps maxium) controlled by the Desk CNC Software, Desk CNC magic card,Main Contactor Relay and the ribbon cables from the Desk CNC Controller to the servo amps and the solid state relays.Compleated the DC wiring from the power supply to the servo amps..
Accomplished some AC wiring, contactor to Emergency Stop and Servo On switch...
But have a long way to go. After I'm released from the hosbital and After Care, I should be able to resume the wiring. The Hosbital did say I would be able to use my Lap Top as they have WiFi ? and I will use it to design the swival mount for the LapTop (dedicated) computor that will control the Lathe.
Following are some pics of the little bit I got done on the wiring.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Just a point about general practice of component mounting.
It is usually the custom to mount all heat radiating devices like transformers & power supplies at the top of the cabinet and heat sensitive devices like drives, at the bottom or below them lower down, just to avoid overheat problems.
Something to keep in mind for the future.
Al.

That makes sense..Although, even in the hot Arizona summer I have had no problem with the retro Tree mill that has the same stack of componets. The electrical box will also have a good fan, I direct that at the servos.., possibly one of the reasons I've not had problems is that the air intake is high in the box, and the out let is low, so that the transformer heat does not rise to the servos ?
That may be one of the reasons the original Tree system failed, they had two huge transformers in the bottom of the cabnet..when I removed all the componets and wiring, everything looked like it had been hot for a substained time..
I will incorporate your suggestion in the next CNC effort (Plasma Cutter)
Thanks

Adobe (old as dirt)

I try to connect everything with crimp connectors and terminal (barrier) strips. That way, every signal is accessible so that I can look at it with a meter or a scope.

I also try to color code the wires to make things easier to follow.

BTW: that's a beautiful job you are doing.

Ken

Ken, thank you for the nice words, I have been in the hosbital all week ( 3rd major back surgery ) and their WiFi and Internet was not working in the new area I was in..Actually, I solder the end of the wires after stripping and like you use the crimp connectors. All of the wiring except incomming AC ( thats just black and white) is color coded, which I've built a list for ,so I can remember !I will say that Scott @ Machine Tool Camp did a good job on the Electrical Engineering and diagrams..even a dummy like me can put one together.
Speaking of remembering, how is your Mill conversion going ?Seems you were working on one about a year before I started my Tree retrofit ?
Anyway, again thanks..will be back working on the lathe in maybe a couple of weeks..

Adobe (old as dirt)

Adobe, Hope you are recovering well form your surgery. Your lathe conversion is great.

Are the ball screws you are using just the cheap rolled screws? Does you software have a way to map the lead errors and compensate?

You shouldn't solder the stripped wires before crimping a connector on. Solder creeps at room temperature, so those crimp connectors will sooner or later start causing intermittent faults.

Adobe,

My mill conversion is complete. Since I use it mainly for prototype work, it isn't heavily used. For those who haven't seen reference to it before, it uses Elrod conversion components, ebay servos, pico-systems controllers and servo drivers, and EMC for software.

My present efforts are to cnc one of my lathes -- probably my Rivett. My plan is to build something like the Omniturn. They sell an attachment that is essentially an XY (I guess it is really an XZ) table that is fixed on the ways. It is intended for gang tooling which should be just what I need for light production of small items. So far, I've acquired ball screws for it on ebay. I'm in no hurry for this project.

An additional effort is to build a conversational interface for EMC (and to convert my mill over to EMC2). Again, this is a long term project which I hope to get in reasonable shape during my vacation in March. The conversational gcode generator will look function pretty much like the mach3 addons from newfangled solutions. So far, I still haven't found an easy way to generate the graphic background screens I need. I suspect it might be time for me to really learn Adobe Illustrator.

Regards,

Ken

RotarySMP. Ball Screws are "rolled" ( Rockford ) with double ball nuts. The primary ball nut has oversize ball nuts (.0002 and .0003, staggered) Using a good tenths dial indicator, with a rigid set up there is no backlash indicated.Had a neighbor help me put my 19 inch LeBlond chuck on the cross slide and still no backlash in either axis. Rigged up my Heidehiem DRO on the Z axis and tracked 28", still with the 19 inch chuck on the cross slide ( that thing must weigh over 150 lbs), and had an error of .0008 maxium , both directions.This test was done using a good grade of Way Lube.
I do not mean to advertise that this will be duplicated under cutting conditions, but there are some other factors : This "little" 12 x 30 lathe weighs 3200 lbs , was manufactured to be a very high precision "Tool Room Lathe" when the Machine Tool Industry in the US was a very viable industry. I purchased it UNUSED in 1969 ( Still in Cosmoline) at a US Government auction, indications are that the machine was manufactured in 1954-1956. Never did understand what the Federal Government was doing with these lathes ( and several mills from the same manufacture, all new also) except the rumor was they came from the weapons lab in New Mexico as "excess".
I have maintained the lathe to my high standards, and in fact had it and a small high precision mill in my office to do prototyping on new equipment we manufactured. ( Got some strange looks on that deal, carpeted office , expensive panaling and a lathe and mill in the middle..saved a lot of time though)No one has ever used the lathe but me.
I spent the bucks on the fixed angular bearings and mounts. Used the Rockford fixed angular mount and Barden Precision Angular Bearings ( I used the regualr bearings for the simple end) Barden simply has the best precision bearings for the Machine tool industry of any one, if your willing to pay. I must agree with NC Cams about the importance of the fixed end bearings for precision. Any way, that is how I approached this retro fit, and in fact after use, if the machine develops unacceptable back lash , I will machine another set of ball screws.The Desk CNC system will compensate for backlash only, no tracking for wear in the ballscrew, but being new and hobby use, I would think the ballscrews will out live me by a lot..
Wow as to the solder..I have a friend who has an almost new Fadel 2040.
(2003) and asked for help with a ball screw/bearing coolant problem ( had to sleeve the X axis ball screw, as the bearing had turned on the shaft..coolant got in the oiled portion due to no oil getting to the end bearings..a real mess, and for a $90,000 machine, just really unacceptable ) During teardown, I noticed that the ends of most elec. wires had been soldered..so I thought I would be smart and duplicate..Not right uh ? Said I was a "Electrically challenged".Do you think I should go back and restrip and not solder ? Like the ends of the wires in the ribbons between the Desk CNC Controller and the servo amps, I soldered all of the ends, then put them in the servo amplifier ..?
I have plenty of wire to redo, what do you experts think ?
I would rather be right than try to chase a stupid problem later..

Thanks for any comments ..

Adobe (old as dirt)

Hi Adobe,

I am also electrically challenged, but a Avionics friend who did some Airforce special soldering course told me that. If those connections are easier to access now than later, then you might want to redo the connections.

I have been following the entire thread, so I read of the precision of the P&W you have been converting, and read how your ball nut installation is currently showing zero backlash.

Where did you buy the 0.0002" oversize balls?

My question on accuracy is that these Rockford screws are specified to have a lead error tolerance of 0.003" per foot, so although you may have zero backlash and position repeatably, you may end up a few thou from where you commanded.

I figured that level of accuracy was higher than the rest of my cheap chinese mini lathe, but it may be least accurate part of your (very tasty) "little " 12x30.

As no leadscrew is perfect, professional controllers which use leadscrews often have a look up table where the measured positional errors are stored, and the controller compensates on the fly. I believe the Linux based EMC has this feature, but I have never got it to load on any of my computors, plus don't think it can do threading yet.

Of course this is pretty theoretical, as;
1/ a tolerance from Rockford of 0.003" per foot doesn't mean that the screw you bought has errors of that magnitude,
2/ for most parts you are either only using a small section of the leadscrew, so the error is correspondingly small,
3/ the required accuracy of many parts is such that the error is of little consequence (Are you making 3 foot parts which need to control their length to better than +- 0.009"?).

Finally for any specific run of parts, you can simply adjust the G-Code to correct any dimensional errors after running the first part.

If the US government sold this off from a secret weapons lab, have you checked it with a geiger counter :)

Have you got any plans for an enclosure?

lerman:Finally got to your web site and got a good look at the Mill conversion..Really nice. I did kinda get some ideas from Elrod on my Z axis conversion of the Tree Mill, and just called them about price..Wow, were they expensive ! Are the X and Y axis mounts cast alum, or were they machined , could not tell from the pictures .Would like to see pics of your lathe conversion when you start..How big is the Rivett Lathe ? Have you gotten to the design stage of the Turrett yet? I ask because I'm working on a six tool ATC for the conversion after every thing is done and working and wondered how you were going to "lock" the turret in place ?
I might add, that is a very impressive Resume, lots of work and study there.

Adobe (old as dirt )

I seem to recall this from some MIL spec or an automotive design manual I saw a while back:

Crimped connectors that are subject to a lot of vibration should not be soldered or if soldered, done so with exteme care.

REASON: the solder can wick up the wire and make the wire 'solid' a bit of a away up from the crimp. As the wired flexes/vibrates, the vibration can be concentrated at the point where the solder stopped wicking and the wire can crack and break or go intermittant - real hard to find if it is up inside the insulation.

If you're going to solder the cripmed connnection, just a dab on the end where the wire pokes thru the connection near the "ring tongue" or "space end" - just enough to solder the end of the wire to the terminal but not enough to get it to wick up the wire. IT does help to crimp solidly first as the crimp helps prevent further wicking.

If you don't solder, at least if the wire breaks due to vibration, it should become readily apparent in that it will break at/near the crimp and you can find it rather quickly.

Wires already soldered and you don't want to redo them?

Lace them up nicely to keep the soldered ends supported and so that they can't /won't vibrate. They should readily survive another lifetime or 3 if you take that precaution.

Rotary SMP: Thanks, and I got to your web site also..Really nice family and your project Mustang 11 is very intresting. My son and I are rebuilding a Travel Air Bi Plane ( 1929 model ) , and it is going, like well ,slow.Although he is an Airline Pilot, when its ready to go, we will both take instructions on how to fly a tail dragger..got the oversize balls from Salem Balls Inc, they have a very good selection of chrome, 5120 balls, most are grade 25. I sat down and checked a bag full of their balls, and they were right on as claimed measurments. Very economical too, especially in the .125 plus range..My thought is to use double ,adjustable ball nuts, but re-ball the primary ball nut with oversize so that I'm not having to tension the following nut so hard it increases rolling reistance . Should also help on hard stop/start situations that would tend to overide the spring washers and cause errors.
You are very correct about error over distance, most likly the only way I can measure error over any distance is with the DRO, and the parts I make for Hot Rods and Street Rods do not require that tolerance ,I just like to build to that tolerance, as I feel any job worth doing is worth doing well...

Keep us up on the plane project !

Adobe (old as dirt )

lerman:Finally got to your web site and got a good look at the Mill conversion..Really nice. I did kinda get some ideas from Elrod on my Z axis conversion of the Tree Mill, and just called them about price..Wow, were they expensive ! Are the X and Y axis mounts cast alum, or were they machined , could not tell from the pictures .Would like to see pics of your lathe conversion when you start..How big is the Rivett Lathe ? Have you gotten to the design stage of the Turrett yet? I ask because I'm working on a six tool ATC for the conversion after every thing is done and working and wondered how you were going to "lock" the turret in place ?
I might add, that is a very impressive Resume, lots of work and study there.

Adobe (old as dirt )

The Elrod housings are all cast aluminum. The Rivett is a small turret lathe (that I picked up for $400 including a flock of collets.)

Take a look at http://www.omni-turn.com/Pages/Machine%20sales%20info/Attachment%20Photos.html
to see what I have in mind to build. My lathe looks sort of like the Hardinge DSM in the photos.

The idea of the gang tooling is that you don't need a turret. A turret is a pain to build compared to a two axis slide. The downside of gang tooling is that it is NG for turning long lengths. But there are lot's of things you can do with it. You can do live tooling pretty easily. Take a look at some of the automation videos they have on that site.

It's easy to have a long resume if you won't (or can't) stay at a single job for long.

Regards,

Ken

Adobe: go to USPTO.GOV and look up the Elrod patent. There are several.

The patent's show how to make the fundamentals of their 3rd axis drive system. You should be able to come up with a variant that skirts the patent - enough guys have done so already. Patent drawings are essentially cartoons but more than adequate to convery the idea on how to do something.

I think the "trick" to their patent is the ability for a quick release of the quill from the ball screw - you'd have to read the claims very carefully but it appeared to be skirtable the last time I ran down the patent.

Although Elrod uses what appears to be a cast aluminum housing for their ball screw and servo mount for the Z drive, it could readily be made from aluminum or cold rolled plate - judging from what you've built and machine already, it would/should be a week end project for your skill level. It will probably take longer to get the ball screw than to machine up the drive/adapters/et al.

If you make drawings maybe a DIY kit could evolve.

Thanks for the kind words Adobe, and the tip about the balls. I am just reassembling the mini lathe with the ball screw conversion, and only have a single ball nut on each axis at present. It will be easy enough to add a second nut to preload the Z axis, but the X axis has no space on these things. I'll see what the backlash is once it is running again, but oversize balls will be the only thing I can do on X.

Do you intend to build an enclosure? Keeping the chips under control has been one of the biggest pluses of CNC for me, as the lathe is on the balcony right next to the lounge door. Lucky we don't have carpet :)

OT...
The Mustang II was not my first choice, (I have plans for the RV-4) but the guy that imported this partially completed MII to Austria took such a low price that we couldn't say no :) It will also take us ages, as Christian has it in his garage and he's an hour from my apartment, and he has to get the motor change on the KR-2s finished and it out of the garage.

I need to find a house my wife can live with and move :)

That Travel air project sounds great. Do you have any photos up anywhere?

NC Cams: re your reply on the soldered joint. After review I'm taking yours and SMP's suggestions. The ribbon wires from the Desk CNC Controller to the Servo Amps I'm going to leave soldered, but loom them to the wire gutters with racers answer to everything ( wire ties), and redo all of the others..will not take very long ..(cut and restrip, no solder )

Yes, Elrod did have some neat ideas, especially on the Quill release for manual operation. I will say this, after I got my third axis built using the ball screw and a housing that resembled Elrods some what ( The Tree Mill is totally different than a Bridgie or clone in that area in front) I found that I really had no use for a manual quill and the complications it would have. I also found that if I needed to say ,drill one-two holes or mill a key way, that its much more accurate to use the MDI function on Desk CNC than to go out to the other little shop and use my Manual BridgePort clone..which I use very seldom after I got use to the MDI functions. I am also using the Vector CAD/CAM to even generate small programs, as there are fewer mistakes, and better accuracy. Its real nice to do a 12 hole bolt circle, use the exact drill for size and maybe take .001 with a reamer for bolt clearence ,and it all fits !
I find that I use my slide rule less and less ,using the CAD/CAM program.
As I search the web for DIY kits for mills, I do see some real scary stuff...Some of the forumn members here are doing much better DIY than you can buy..but will admit Elrod has some nice stuff..just very costley.

Thanks ffor the help

Adobe (old as dirt)

Rotary, yes will post photos..even have some photos of the plane on its last flight, prior to teardown.. ( Thankfully had not been used as crop duster, so everything was pretty much original !)We looked at the RE-4 too, and a friend took us up in his..was very impressed !

Enclosure : I think that I will build a rear splash pan like Widget ( Eric) Master did, then go from there..I hate the mess too!

Will gather the photos and post ( You may be able to see on picture behind the lath on the wall of its last flight..)

Adobe (old as dirt)

FPV GTp: Yes I should have said when you get to imserv, then click on quick lathe. That program also has quick turn,thread ( inside and out )drill and groove. All you do is fill in a couple of blanks and presto, the G code is written..Pretty standard G code, like I said we tested on my friends turning center and every function worked .They have a free down load, try it and see if that is what you need for your conversion.

How is your conversion going ? Also I have ment to ask you about your 4.0 Litre Turbo "Falcon" motor..is that like a Ford Falcon 6 cylinder in line ? Or a
V 6 ? What kind of boost pressure are you uising to generate that much H.P. ?
Alcohol or gas ? 1000 hp for 250 CID is just really screaming !Hope we get to see it when we travel to Aus. next year..

Adobe (old as dirt)


hi Adobe Machine

My conversion is at a stand still as I'm trying to figure out which electronics to use and software.

Yes there are guys downunder making well over 1400 bhp out of a Ford 4 liter inline 6 cylinder engines 24 valves ( 4 per cylinder , twin camsafts with vairiable cam timing ) and not to mention huge turbos hanging of the end of the engines

Some of these street driven cars weigh 1700kgs plus driver and running high nine second passes down the quarter mile.

Stock out of the factory the FPV_GTp runs 13.9 and i ran mine the quickest was 14.2 but i babyed it along the car weighs 1820kgs with all the options plus me another 120kgs , mine GTp is a 5.4 liter quad cam Modular V8 the same engine you guys have in ur american ford cars.

The Typhoons F6 stock runs 13.9 seconds also out a inline 6 cylinder turbo 4liter



Hi asuratman's , that is a nice setup of your lathe.

cheers


hi

nice work here , keep up the good work

here is a 1000 bhp plus BA turbo engine on a engine dyno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUWCo3lDjH8&mode=related&search=


cheers

Wow, the header tubing takes a beating on that engine, that turbo is makin" some wind !
Thanks for the video FPV Gtp..glad to hear from you. I should be able to get back on the Lathe maybe next week, still very sore,, and motion limited, but things going better each day.

Adobe (old as dirt ).

Felt like working in the shop today: I did start back on some of the Electronics,cut the soldered ends of 4-5 circuts, put them back without the solder as suggested by numerous members of the CNC Zone, but the cabnet was a little high to work out of the wheel chair.
Since I recieved the Cortite Ball Screw covers last week, and their location was right , decided to install both sides of the Z axis covers.
1st, drew up the brackets in Vector Cad / Cam, downloaded to Desk CNC and milled the brackets on my Tree 3 axis mill, using some scrap 1/2 inch 6061
T-6. This included drilling an 8 hole, 3.375 inch bolt hole circle using a # 29 drill for a 8-32 button head screw, and 2 clearance holes for 1/4 inch fastners to mount the brackets.
Then I turned two 1/8 th inch disks with a 1.125 center, then turned 2 tubes with a 1.125 O.D., and .950 I.D. I TIG'D the tubes to the disks. I had some nylon like material left over from a job a couple of years ago..I've forgotten the name of the material, but it is tuff and slick..Turned that to .958, pressed into the tube, then bored to .700..This will ride on the ball screw. Gortite left a "pocket" in the middle of the cover to insert the disk and tube so the material will not rub on the ball screw.
After the brackets and disks were done , I began installation, the Tailstock end required that the ball shaft to be moved to slip on the cover then drill and tap the bearing block and apron for the new brackets.Reinstall the ballshaft and began to install the cover.
This takes some real patience: First I marked the cover end with a sharp awl going thru the drilled and tapped ends, then using a sharpened old phillips screw driver, heated with a propane torch untill red, burning a hole thru the material. Each cover requires 16 holes, so you can not get in a hurry on this operation.I installed the 16, 8-32 allen button heads and washers, but had to cut all fastners to .475, as all I had were one inch long . Just takes some time.
I did finish the Tail Stock end and will start on the Head stock end maybe tomorrow if I still feel pretty good. ( I was supposed to be down for a whole month, man, just one week , and I was bouncing off the walls..)

Picture 1: This is a view of the Headstock, apron side cover bracket, the Gortite Z axis cover and the center support.

Picture 2: Hope you can see the center disk support installed in the cover.

Picture 3: This is the Tail Stock end Z axis ball screw cover installed.

Picture 4: The Tail Stock end Z Axis ballscrew cover completly collasped, at Machine limits.

Picture 5 and 6 Tail stock end views, expanded to machine limits ( the cross slide would be in the 4 jaw chuck )

Adobe (old as dirt)

Had a slight problem last week, so had to go back in the Hospital..Not fun, totally boring, although I did get to practice developing some G code programs for testing the lathe, using both Vector and "lathe Quick Code"
Anyway started back on the Lathe: Drew the mounts for the other half of the Ball Screw Cover ( Headstock end) in Vector and milled them on the Tree mill, using some scrap 1/2 inch 6061 Alum, drilled and tapped on the Milling machine ( did not break any taps, so I'm getting better) using canned cycles that come with Desk CNC and Vector..man is that nice to have all 18 holes in the exact location and tapped with little effort. My slide rule is gonna get rusty.
I also finished a simple to remove cover ( 2 allen head button screws) that covers the Z axis Ball Screw bearing housing and servo motor. The Ball Screw Covers are also easy to slide back ( 2 bolts on the mount to machine) so I can clean on a regular basis. We do not have nearley as much dust as Tucson or Phoenix, but I sure like all the windows and doors open in the shop most of the time, so along with the Way oil, the ball screws can accumulate some dust. Eventhough the Ball Screw Bearing housing have good seals, they are to keep the lube in the bearings and some dust out. I have seen a lot of instances where high water soluable oil will track into the bearings due to a tempature differential..That is not good for expensive bearings.
I was in a friends shop a couple of weeks ago, and heard this terrible Howl from an older Hurco 3 axis knee mill he has, only did it in the X axis move, but the table was jumping too..I took a few and looked at it, could not believe the Ball Screw was completley filled with swarf and goo. Took some engine starting fluid ( either) and along with a good hemp string cleaned most of the ball screw..Noise stopped, table no longer jerks, cleaned the Y axis also, machinest said that is the smoothest the machine had been in years ? Then they wonder why they have trouble with tolerance..
I can access both the X and Z axis ball screws with little effort for cleaning on the lathe.

Next I'm almost finished with a simple cover for the other end of the Z axis, then start milling on the computor swing out stand.
I have decided to use the Lap Top, as my computor guy has hooked up a remote hard drive that is for the Lathe only, and using some kind of software that will not allow anything else to happen when its in Lathe mode..We tried it on the Mill and it seemes to work well..He also isolated the Mill computor to not let any thing go on while in Desk CNC. I have had a couple of instances where Microsoft decided to "update" while milling..could be dangerous, as I could not see the pause button on the screen, and I use that to change tooling..

Picture 1: Other half of ball screw cover assembly, to include the saddle end mount,head stock end mount, cover and the center support ( the nylon is not in the center support yet)

Picture 2: Finished saddle end mount

Picture3 : Finished headstock end cover mount.

Picture 4,5 & 6 : Various view of the installed ball screw covers.

Picture 7,8 and 9: Views of the simple cover for the bearings and servo, Z axis.

Adobe (old as dirt)

I have been following the thread, wondered how you were doing on it. That lathe looks pretty ATAS (All Tactical And Sh*t) hehe. Seeing all that nicely machined Aluminum made me think of Barney Oldfield for some weird reason, I grew up about 14 miles from where he was born. Spent some years as pit crew for dirt sprint cars...made a few parts here and there....that sound gets in your blood and after you have been exposed to them other race cars seem....kind of boring :-)....that sound ruins your ears too, that funny itching feeling in your ears when the cars come of the corner and all come alive on the front stretch with some carrying one or now and then both front wheels was probably WORTH the hearing damage I have at 41 :-). No other kind of race car makes every hair on my body stand on end like a good pack of winged sprints do :-) when the green flag drops :-).


Bill

Yep, understand that sound,but I grew addicted to Blown Fuel and alcohol drag boats..540 Inches of Keith with 50lbs of boost out of 14-71 just kinda get the juices going, exciting to drive it too, but all you can hear driving is the blower, or if your behind your competitor, alas, his engine..hate that sound...
The sprints use alcohol ? Real high compression ? I have heard some with 180 degree headers that sounded awsome..We did Midgets for a couple of years, you would be suprized what 150 CID 4 cylinder at 9000 rpm sounds like ! really fun, son drove , did a good job.

Thanks for the comments, I should be in working order in a few weeks, kinda getting anxious to test the lathe..

Adobe (old as dirt)

Yup methanol, back in 1983 they ran 14:1, not sure now. We had a roller cam aluminum rodded 327 that really screamed, it had a teltale tach on it and seemed to really come alive at 11,200 rpm, would carry the front wheels quite a ways off the corner....and put 350's with steel rods back behind it listening to the headers hehe.

Hillborn mechnaical fuel injection, methanol is not real picky as long as the mixture is on the RICH side :-).

Bill

I was just reading Willbird's thread and see you mentioned getting out of the wheel chair. Soon?
Remember, "He who dies with the most toys wins" so get on that lathe. I,m not expecting your sudden removal. I just scared the crap out of myself and thought I might beat you and I don't have anywhere near enough playthings.

Yes,spine operation # 3 )( in 3 years, accident) feeling pretty good this last two days..Had lots of family in for the Holidays ( well, with 7 children you would expect ) so it will be this comming week and I'm back on it..I got a lot more play toys to go to win..


Adobe (old as dirt)

Got a few things done today. Finished the headstock end Z axis ball screw simple end bearing cover. Again , just a real uncomplicated cover that only takes 2 button head allens to remove for service.

The first two pictures show the completed ball screw covers and the bearing end covers.Still must mount the DRO sending unit for Z under all of that, but have alredy drilled and tapped for the spacers, so not a big deal and access although low, is not that bad.

Began milling the link for the computor stand. The link will provide swing at both ends . The mount at the lathe is the same material as the link, only milled as the male end as is the table mount for the lap top.One of the problems in using scrap alum, is I have carted it around so long it has gotten really damaged, so each piece has to be milled top , bottom and sides as much as .050 side, O'well its cheap..6061-T6 has gone the price of fuel, straight up.Used to pay $1-1.50 per lb for certified , good T-6, now junk is
$2.50- $3.25 /lb jeeze..Anyway cut the contours on the ends and surfaced top and bottom, left is to cut a trough in the center /top for the connection cable, drill , then tap for the pivot bolts in each end.Then cut the male end countours for the mounts, and follow drill for the pivot bolts.
The "tray" is being made of 1/4" T-6, with a raised edge about 1/2 inch all around.

Picture 1 and 2 : view of Z axis covers and completed covers for the bearings

Picture 3,4,5,and 6. Milling link for the computor stand

picture 7: view of the rough finished link.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Yup methanol, back in 1983 they ran 14:1, not sure now. We had a roller cam aluminum rodded 327 that really screamed, it had a teltale tach on it and seemed to really come alive at 11,200 rpm, would carry the front wheels quite a ways off the corner....and put 350's with steel rods back behind it listening to the headers hehe.

Hillborn mechnaical fuel injection, methanol is not real picky as long as the mixture is on the RICH side :-).

Bill

Hi

14:1 airfuel ratio for methanol is extremely lean mixture , on wide open throttle it should be closer to half of what you have mention in my experience with racing fuels.

Keep up the good work in this thread, hope to catch up with you when you land in Australia. My project is happening but very slowly

and take care

cheers

FPV GTp: Thanks for saying hello,as soon as I get Medical clearence, will be able to schedule the trip, was planning Thailand too, but with the unrest there, no way.
I think what WILLBIRD was refering to was compression ratio, but you are very correct, at a 14:1 fuel / air ratio with alcohol or fuel ( nitro) you would melt lots of expensive parts...We used 7 gallons of alcohol in one 1/4 mile pass, including a short warm up ( allowed 60 seconds warm up, depending how long we had been on the holding rope). Figure how much fuel in one intake stroke at 7200 rpm, for less than 7 seconds, total usage 6.2 gals in that 7 seconds..Talk about a liquid diet ! (remember, the intake only opens 1 in four RPM )
I'm making s-l-0-w progress due to limited physical movement, and the trips back to the Doctor and physical therepist, just a real PITA. But will have pictures this weekend of the completed swival lap top stand. Ingus notified me that the Ingus chain for the X axis servo wiring was shipped yesterday.
At that point, finish the wiring, then test and tune will began. I did purchase a 6 jaw, "True Set" 10 inch Chuck.. Just a very precise chuck, that can be adjusted to 000 TIR.

Regards, Hey send some pictures of your progress, even if its slow ! We are all intrested in your project !

Adobe (old as dirt )

Hi, Adobe.

Nice CNC lathe conversion there. I am learning a lot from what you are doing. I will soon (hopefully) start my CZ-1340G/1 (China made 13" x 40") lathe when I finish my CNC retrofit to my ZAY7032 mill/drill machine.

The only possible drawback to my project is the difficulty of getting things like ballscrew, timing pulley, etc. in my part of the world. Btw, will be happy to meet you if in case you will visit here.

Best,
WT

No plans to go to the Philippines yet, was at Clark AFB in the early 60's as the kick off to SE Asia ( Flying Helicopters , "Hot Weather Training )..My daughter in law is from there , though and they are planning a trip next year.

I will ask again, cannot a "friend" send a friend "gifts" from the USA without a lot of hassel ? Say to Australia, New Zeland or the Philippines ?

Adobe (old as dirt )

I will ask again, cannot a "friend" send a friend "gifts" from the USA without a lot of hassel ? Say to Australia, New Zeland or the Philippines ?


It used to be you could label shipments 'Gifts' but inevitably it got abused and most Customs get a bit jaded on this issue. The odd one gets through.
I have found since security has tightened, International shipments get closer scrutiny.
It is best to find out what the Country maximum is before required clearance duty kicks in, for example the US is $200.00 Canada $20.00.
Label it 'Used' and put a lower amount than the Free max.
Al.

Thanks Al, that might help some of you who are paying god alful prices for CNC parts, uh "used parts"

Adobe (old as dirt )

No plans to go to the Philippines yet, was at Clark AFB in the early 60's as the kick off to SE Asia ( Flying Helicopters , "Hot Weather Training )..My daughter in law is from there , though and they are planning a trip next year.

I will ask again, cannot a "friend" send a friend "gifts" from the USA without a lot of hassel ? Say to Australia, New Zeland or the Philippines ?

Adobe (old as dirt )

Yes, Clark was then the largest American airbase outside of the US. It is now an industrial park, commercial complex, and international airport.

The easiest way of sending "gifts" (even new and old CNC parts) to the Philippines and avoiding all the customs hassle is to send it thru "Balikbayan Box". Ask your daughter-in-law and she will know what it is.

Finished milling , drilling and counter sinking the swing arm for the Lap top. It has full swing, rotates both ends, and very little deflection even with a 240 lb person hanging on it. The "plate will be mounted on the outer swing at about 15 degrees. The plate has sides to prevent slip and drop, and is long enough to have the extra hard drive on it.
I will be able to operate the computor in the wheel chair, if necessary.

Picture 1: The finished 3 pieces, being drilled and counter sunk for the piviots
( 1/2-13 X 4" allen bolts )

Picture 2: Long view of set up.

Picture 3: Mounted to the front of the lathe

Picture 4 & 5: Top and side views Note the slut ,er, slot in the top for the laptop to Desk CNC Controller.Slot will be covered.

Picture 6:New 6 Jaw chuck with mount plate. I have to machine the mount plate . I start with .005 reduction of the pilot on the backplate to give me approx .0025 adjustment. Can decrease more if necessary to achieve .0000
TIR. Usually, with machining alum I might check the TIR twice a year.Aggressive machining of Alloy steels, I will check after 2-3 weeks.


Picture

14:1 was the COMPRESSION ratio not the fuel/air ratio :-)


Bill

Pretty much finished the Lap Top swing out mount..Its strong, I can pull myself up from the wheel chair with no movement. there are 4 pictures showing the construction. Next, get to start back on the wiring. Recieved 1/2 of the Ingus ( small one for the encoder wiring) the larger one for the DC input to the Z axis should be here tomorrow.

I'm also adding some pictures of the " other Hobby", and explainig how my retro Tree mill has been so much help in rebuilding this air plane. Our son is an airline pilot , and really loves antique airplanes. We decided on a 1929 Travel Air Bi Plane, although disassembled when we looked at it, the pieces were all there, and the plane had not been modified as a crop duster. We got the " O my god " looks from wife's when we drug this home, and " Not in my garage speech" O' well, we stripped it down to bare metal and blasted with walnut shells.lots of cracks, and the engine mount and landing mount were junko..I went to work on the fuselage, made brackets, machined and fabricated new engine mounts (for a Wright 9 cyl J 5, 220 hp), TIG'd all together and checked and rechecked all the measurments (we have a set of assembly plans), Son did all the wood work using air craft spruce and african mahogoney ( that stuff is Gold priced, whew !) re-doing the turtle deck, and working to the cockpit. I made all new control pullys, and engineered them with sealed , precision ball bearings. The engine mounts were drawn up in Vector then the G code down loaded to Desk CNC, these parts came out to tenths, really nice to be able to make accurate parts on a 27 year old retrofitted mill for a 77 year old Bi Plane.The wings are rebuilt, sent them to a fella who has some of the original jigs, He is just a real craftsman, will tune the tail surfaces also.
We sent the cylinders to be rechromed, can you believe UPS lost them ? They are insured, just a hassel to find 9 matching cylinders, with out buying a complete engine, which in any condition is bigo bucks.
1st picture is the original , with a 90 hp , OX 5 watercooled V8, a real POS.This picture was taken in 1934 in Ohio. This engine was changed sometime in the 50's , for a radial 9 cyl continental, not much of an engine either.Note the tail number, that will be the same.
The next picture is the "last flight" some times in the 60's, from Florida to California, where it was disassembled for restoration.After disassembly, nothing was done untill we bought the project.
Shown is # 1 grandson, and how we bought the project.. um, no wonder we got the lectures from our wives.
The next couple of pictures show some progress on the airframe, you can see the new and improved motor mount and landing gear.The landing gear uses big rubber bands wrapped to act as soft springs for landing.
The last picture is the compass bezal, which I copied to Vector and down loaded to Desk CNC, which ended up making a bezal almost as nice as the original..I will say, there was a lot of skill and time manufacturing this plane in 1929.Just unbelievable how well parts were made and finished , what a hacksaw and file ?
Who flies it 1st when were done ? Well we both are going to tail dragger school, then a coin toss... I just have one question, does it count if you crash on the 1st flight as He who dies with the most Play Toys , WINS ?

Adobe (old as dirt)

Manned flight motto:

"Any landing you can walk away from or be thrown clear of is a good one."

Did that once , no really twice, but does the crashed plane count as a " Toy" even tho its junko and your dead..? Wife needs to know for the tombstone..
( "He almost won", or "He won !" )

Adobe (old as dirt )

My dad had to parachute twice during WWII while flying in the Marine Corps. He used to use the "any landing ......" thing. When he was older he changed it to "Any day you wake up is a good day." Now I use that variation. The tombstone will have to read "I had a bad day, the other guy wins."

O'well, rules is rules..damn it .

Adobe (old as dirt)

Fabricated the X axis Ingus mounts for both the encoder wiring and DC electrical supply. I decided to use two Ingus carriers to seperate the encoder wiring and the DC wiring, and eliminate any " noise" between the two.

I was able to complete a lot of the wiring, feeling a lot better and and can move around almost as good as prior to the operation, just still a little light on energy. Completed all AC control wiring, finished the X axis wiring, along with the encoder / servo amplifyier wiring, the coolant control ( I can use an
"M" code to turn off/on the coolant , but also ran through a manual switch so I can turn off the coolant if needed for inspection, while turning ).
Started on the work light wiring and the power supply / relay wiring..Do not lack a lot of wiring..maybe next week for some testing , then install the DRO, and calibrate.
I am gathering ideas for an ATC, if you have an idea ,even just a general sketch that I can CAD would be super. I would like at least a 4 tool ATC, maybe even one live tool for up to 1/2 end mill..Like I said , any ideas would help..I've looked at some internet drawings, including a couple in the CNC Zone..Would like to use a servo motor and air /hydraulic lock... Maybe?

No particular order on the pictures, you can see the brackets fabricated ,and the entry into the electrical cabnet.

Thanks

Adobe (old as dirt )

Hi Adobe,

Glad you are recovering well from your surgery. Thanks for posting the pictures of the Travel Air. It is great to know that a part of the aviation heritage is in your able hands.

Where do you buy the energy chain from?

Just realized the I have been spelling Igus wrong..
They have a web site with pictures and specs..Their ph # is 1-800-521-2747

I talked to Ian, he was very polite and knowledgable, their prices are economical. A Quality German product that will live for a long time.

Rotary SMP: Time will tell on the plane..It is a very expensive Hobby, therefore things go a little slower than we would like,but you can not comprimise on quality and craftsmanship, did I say it took two times on the landing gear,? all over one little tiny mistake in measurement of an angle..

Thanks for looking .

Any ideas on an ATC for the lathe ?

Adobe (old as dirt )

Re: lost cylinders: Good luck in collecting for the "insured" parts. We're still waiting for payment for parts that they admitted losing. Even though we insured them for replacement value, they want to see "invoices". DUH, I insured for FULL replacement value, not what it cost me to make them which is now all that they want to pay me. Who pays for the lost revenue and unrealized profit????

Re: ATC for lathe: would a tool indexer suffice? I have a line on a 4 position indexable system owned by a retired guy that he wants to unload. The system enables you to premount tools and then simply rotate the correct one into position as you proceed. Two indexers could be mounted on opposite sides of the part if you had the room. An M code indexes the holder to the next premounted tool position.

We already collected for the cylinders. 4 letters, 9 or 10 long, time wasting phone calls, and finally a letter from or family attorney,a settlement was made. We delt with 3 snotty, "know it all" females, who had no idea what they had lost, and actually treated us like crooks. My wife had to hang the phone up twice ,as my language began exceeding any resonable limits. The problem now is finding 9 matched cylinders...There are some motors aviable, but in just" rebuildable" condition ( whose defination ?) are running $40,000 to $55,000..just an expensive hobby. We will win !

Very intrested in the ATC, need to know distance from the tip of the indexed tool to the mount, what size tool holder, and how is it locked, servo operated or step? actual size etc. Do you think this would fit the lathe I'm retrofitting ?
Really appreaciate the reply, will PM you this evening , have therapy Monday, will not be back to the house untill late evening.

Thanks

Adobe (old as dirt)

Re: cylinders = I dunno what size the bores or or the length BUT, with all the monster bore V-Twin stuff out there, I'd almost wonder if a motorcycle cylinder could not be adapted.

Then there is always the "billet" cylinder routine. If you can make a billet block and/or head, why not a billet cylinder - you might need help lifting the material onto the machining center or lathe but it should be doable.

or

Take a rectangular block of free machining steel and make the finned externals and then shrink fit it over a thin wall repair sleeve - LA Sleeve should have something in your size.

or

Make temporary patterns and have some nice ductile castings made.

Or

Make patterns in aluminum and create wax 100% plugs can be made and then "invested" and turned into investment castings. You might even be able to create epoxy molds that you could pull off of existing castings so as to make investments from. You can literally make jewelry from invetment castings.

Ideas are free - you supply the time, technology and machining expertise....

Yes NC, your right..And it may come to really taking a deep breath and considering your stated options..Hope springs eternal that we will find the cyls, or one of us hits the lottery to buy a complete. ( ha)

I have looked at some of the Model Radials that have been machined by CNC Zone members on Mini Mills, and I'm in awe!May not be that difficult to scale up ? ( famous last words )..And how about lost foam casting..saw OMC and Mecury make some awsome stuff with lost foam..?

The one problem right now is TIME..During my hospital stay I wrote a list of the "Projects", then rewrote with the must do ones first, right on down the line..I'm intimidated ! And the projects are growing by the square of 10, it seems, not complaining, just wonder if I have enough heartbeats to finish everything. Also start 2 classes in Electronics ( I'm just real poor in electronics) and a begginer class in Computor use,this January. Then possibly some programming theory the semester after .

Right now, and untill we run out of options, ( or get instantley rich ) I'm proceeding on the fact we will come up with the correct heads..? ? That would be on heck of challenging project, eh .. There is a least another year or more ,of work to be done before we hit the panic button..

Thanks for your ideas..will contact you about the ATC you mentioned.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Adobe, I would guess that you are doing enough work to meet the 51% rule and thus be eligible to recertify your travel air as a homebuilt. That would allow you to do pretty much anything you like with the engine. I'd do some good research into the consequences for resale value though.

Part 43 has a pretty generous Owner manufactured part rule, but I am not sure you can stretch it to cover casting new cylinder heads, and turning new barrels.

The technologies in the air cooled aero engines is a mix of basic and quite refined. The cylinder head castings look rough as guts screwed and shrunk onto , the barrels which are normally a high quality steel like 4130 and chromed. I would expect there is lot of emperical knowledge of just the right bore taper, ovality, etc to make it a pretty tough reverse engineering job. On the other hand, the plane is likely to only see 50 hours a year, so the TBO of home engineered parts is of little concern as long as you can control the failure modes.

Rotary SMP. Our intent is not to have a "Home Built", but an FAA cert.flying 1929 Travel Air.

You are correct, trying to reverse engineer a Wright that is 70-79 years old and then fly it is not not for the faint of heart.Times and tastes change,we may want to sell in the future and build something else, so I see only as a last resort trying to engineer / machine successfully heads for this engine.A very last resort at that.I would not want a purchaser of the craft to have the burden of "home-built heads".

So we keep looking, suprising what comes out of the wood work on things like this..Like I said , this is an expensive hobby, and you have to be right about what you do..you can not just pull over to the side of the road in case of engine failure at 8000 ft..

I do believe that the parts we make for this plane are as good as the original, or better. This is a well designed machine , the few changes we have made, with the tolerances kept should improve the performance.

And how is your project going ?Still remaking a lot of parts ? When we were shopping for a project, I was appaled at some of the incomplete ( and even complete kits) kits as to the workmanship that we saw..Loose nuts and bolts, stiripped bolts, improper fastners, too long of bolts, tightned to the flange, but no compression on the parts, cables routed over tubes and spars, actually rubbing through the alum..Hardware store alum in place of alloy, no bushings or bearings where called for, horrible machine work, musta used a hacksaw and file..on and on..really scary stuff, and they intended to fly that crap..O well, guess population thinning is important.

Adobe (old as dirt)

AM You flyer types are uh "unusual". Your daughter in law and your wife, however, demonstrate sanity. One of the other "old farts" that I have coffee with every morning is building a Sonic. Not "unusual" except tha he's building it in his apartment. The living rom is now occupied by the tail section. We are fortunate in living here in Wisconsin. Long winters to build whatevers and 1 1/2 hrs from Oshkosh and the EAA Museum and the fly-in every year. Another of my "unusual" friends wants me to design a motor for his kit-plane. I won't build anything that might require parking on a cloud for emergency repair. Sent him to Racine where they used to build Tree and Gorton mills. They now build V-4 aircraft engines that are supercharged and turbocharged and burn jet fuel instead of avgas. They are certified. Just thought you might be interested.
The name is Delta hawk www.deltahawk.com Its a 2-stroke diesel.

Have followed their progress as I'm somewhat fond of compression ignited engines.I can not imagine the initial expense of one that will produce 220 HP.
the certification process alone would break most banks..

Well, been called worse than "uh unusual"...Did I mention the gyro-copter we built ?Now that was one dangerous machine..a real fart in a wind storm..literally. 1st little crash, and our wives took it away..Heck, just got used to the controls..

(on your link above, all I got was a poster company ?)

And speaking of projects, did you end up the Tree Mill ?

Adobe (old as dirt)

AM Sorry 'bout that www.deltahawkengines.com Ref. Tree 320 CNC. The machine is still available, I believe. However, "cohort" is still waiting for space in another facility to be available. He also has another problem. Recently there was a propane gas explosion in Milwaukee's Falk Corp. 3 killed, 44 injured, 50,000 sq. ft. building totally destroyed and serious damage to more buildings. This complex has (had) 1,500,000 sq. ft. under roofs. My friend had just completed the remanufacturing of a large K&T CNC Vertical Mill. Fortunately, he could not keep his 8:00 AM meeting to deliver the elect. schematics. The explosion occured @ 8:07 AM and he would have been parked within the blast area adjacent to the building that is now gone.
Back to DeltaHawk. Yes the cert. cost was high. I do believe the pricing is available either on a related site or directly from DeltaHawk. I'm not suggesting you use this engine, I just thought it might be of interest.

AM, I was wrong, DeltaHawk may not be certified yet. After checking out the site on the last post, I see they were still working on it.

Very intresting motor, should have been done 20 years sooner..FAA is very slow to approve "New" anything, controls, insturments, power trains..etc. I sure hope these guys make it, they all have a lot of time and $$$ involved, I'm sure that you as an engineer understand the frustration of having your "baby" jerked due to politics, misunderstood costs or regulations that may or may not make sense to anybody involved.

Fate intervenes sometimes as with your friend..Wow, we had fate intervene several years ago when the plane our son flew as a 1st officer ( and wrote up the problem ) was involved in an incident 45 minutes into the next time was flown, no repair was made, even tho the plane had been written up several times..You just never know.

Made some progress on the wiring which will post as pictures this weekend: All Servo wiring is complete, all control wiring is complete as is the power supply. I lack the cooling fan installation, and that wiring, and some 120 V plugs for the coolant ( M code controlled, and the work light , controlled from the operators panel.

The reason I did not post pictures now is the incredable mess I have created on the floor, machine , and work cart with wires, holders, tools , wire covering and crimp fittings..I gave up tonight early, could not find my crimping tool or holder, # 7 drill etc..This mess will take at least 3 hours to clean up.My wife walked into the shop and just laughed..said it looked like her kitchen when she baked..This wiring is totally unlike machining, I can keep organized, but what a mess today.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Now you know why I have not posted many pictures yet Adobe :-)


Bill

Okay, Willybird, you get a one time pass..

Adobe (old as dirt)

They say that "aviation is a self-cleaning oven"!

No visible progress on the Mustang. I borrowed a set of 1998 plans from a guy here, and compared each sheet with our 1980 plans and noted all the updates. That took about 12 hours over a couple of weeks.

The quality on kit is variable. It looks like the guy who started it and did the bulk of the work was probably a A&P as the centersection structure is of good aviation quality. At least one on teh builders along the way couldn't rivet to save himself, but mostly only nailed on fairing and such like, so the redo is not significant.

Finally it looks like someone was afraid of rivetting, as you basically have a complet airframe clecoed together, whereas it should have had more completed parts.

I sent a four day weekend in Klatovy, Czech Republic doing skin work on one of my friend skyvans. www.pink.at Sure is nice to get out of the office and away from the pre christmas BS, and spend four days on the tools :). The Skyvan is a hard aircraft to do structural repair on, as most skins are redux bonded with a corrigated inner skin.

http://www.pinkskyvan.com/0609grofo/formationflieger1.JPG

1st let me apoligise: I have not posted progress in a while as I had another incident with stiches pulling and bleeding, so the Boss ( My long suffering wife) has restricted my activities to zero for a couple of weeks.Total boredom, but have caught up on some CAD drawings, and begining to CAD some lathe projects and threading..Vector 11 really works neat, am learning more every day. I would also like to thank NC Cams for sending me some drawings and ideas for an ATC..really appreciate his efforts, and am now in the process of developing some CAD drawings for this idea.

Mark, what engine will you use for the Mustang, Rotack ? Do they have many manufacturers in Euorpe for small aircraft engines ? And is there much unrestricted air space to fly the craft when you are done ? My son moved back east recently, ( where some of our project is now) and was unpleasently suprized to find that after 9/11, a lot of the airspace in the Eastern states of the US have become "off Limits" to private air craft..really kinda slowed down the private/hobby flying in those areas. O'well, just another example of our Government over reacting to supposed danger, and steping on citzens rights in their rush to protect..ha, After watching their clown act during Katrina you just have to wonder ?

That skyvan looks like one good skydiving transport..rear exit and all..You used the term "redux" in the covering..I'm sure I have heard the word, but the old brain will not connect..Is that some type of epoxy ?

Think that I may not have had the skydiving accident ( 4 yrs ago) had we been using a rear exit transport, using a side exit, fouled the risers and landed kinda hard ( busted both knees, one hip and six vertebrae)..In fact they had a simililar incident from the same plane 2 weeks later (the lady died) so they voluntarley grounded the transport. Is that plane manufactured in Europe ?

Thanks for the reply, take some pictures of your project..sounds real intresting !

Adobe (old as dirt)

Hi Adobe,

Did you get a set of plans for the small ATC which the german guy built? If not, PM me your email address and I'll send you them.

Austria has the third largest GA light aircraft manufacturer in the world. Diamond. Rotax is also in Austria. The airspace is not a big problem. A fair bit more restrictive than NZ, but mostly due control zones or nature reserves rather than access restrictions.

We are planning to put a Mazda 13B in the Mustang. I have been on the ACRE's newsgroup for years and have www.wankel.org. Still years away from that though.

<politics>
Well no one here was suprised that your current mob turned out to be one of the worst administrations in history. The sad thing is that your adminstration has more impact on our lives than ours does, but we don't get a chance to vote for them :)
</politics>

Redux bonding is just a trade name of hexcel. Their products are extensively used for honeycomb cored panels etc.
http://www.hexcel.com/NR/rdonlyres/2BCC65F5-AB64-4D9B-810A-705E77ADD3D2/0/redux.pdf

The Skyvan's were built by Shorts of Belfast. Now part of the bombardier group. It is a real workhorse, having the same internal dimensions as a standard 20' shipping container. It has the same TPE 331's as used on the Swearingen Merlins and Mitsubishi rice rockets. Two of the Pinks have been modified with MT wooden 5 blade props to quieten them down. They have an approval for 21 jumpers in a load (I think).

Hope the course of rest the boss ordered helps.

I knew they looked familiar. I flew on one of them rigged up for half passenger and half parcel shipping in some god forsaken place. Tough little plane. I was so impressed, I had to inquire about it with the pilot.

Today I finished the wiring except for the limit switches and still must build the brackets for the spindle encoder.

Installed the cooling fans and wired those to come on with the power on switch..wow, do those little fans move some air, and only draw .7 amps each.

Well, could not wait, just like a kid with his first big toy..hooked up the lap top and began with MDI..I just did not realize how fast 150 IPM is..I'm going to slow it down to 100 IPM in rapid,and follow cutting reccomendations from the insert manufactures as a starting point. The lathe is heavy enough ( 3200 lb), and having an actual 10 hp, 2 speed 3 ph motor ( not the bs figures they are using today as " Horse Power") I can most likley cut a maximum cutter reccomended speed.

I did a quick check with a 0.001 dial indicator to see if I had the software steps per inch correct, test did confirm I had the correct count, there appears to be no backlash, but will use my good tenths indicator when I'm ready to cut.

I then loaded a 500 line program that I developed in Vector ( Fred Smith at IM Service had to help me with the correct MACRO for Desk CNC, had to load a G-18 at the start of the program, which I musta skipped over in the instructions..) did no cutting, but looked like it ran with no problems, I ran at 80 IPM, and that was pretty fast for a 50 year old lathe.( and me too, I could not have cranked the lathe that fast.)

Next: Encoder for the spindle,limit switches, coolant system, install my work light and clean up some little items, then to a full cutting trial, with threading trails . After running awhile I will pin all items that were installed for the CNC drive..

Pictures in no particular order..See the snow, for the record we live in Southern Arizona..glad to see the snow !

Adobe (old as dirt )

What procedure do you follow when you are unloading and reloading the balls into your ballnut? I am having a backlash problem and I am convinced that it is coming from the ballnut. I am using a single Hiwin ballnut and they tell me that the only way to take out backlash is to install oversized balls. They also tell me that they can’t measure any backlash on their ballnut. I have run about 20 test for backlash and the only thing left is the ballnut.

Thanks

Vince

1) Clean enviroment, some nice plastic dishes, pair of tweesers ( no magnets) some vasoline or a very light grease, good 0-1" electronic mic ( you must be able to measure tenths(0.0001 plus). I use my lathe to hold the ball shaft,you could use 2 "v" blocks that are solid to the table.
2) Remove one cross-tube slow like, then measure all that come out of the tube. Some manufactures stagger the balls in size ( oversize-regular size) but most do not. If all in the tube are the same size, roll the ball nut over one of the clean plastic containers untill empty, if your nut is a double circut, dump the other one.
3) Pull the nut off, clean the shaft ( I use a good heavy duty string after cleaning with a spray degreaser. Clean the inside of the nut and all the balls..check for unusual wear, brinelling etc.install the nut back on the shaft.
4)select the oversize you are going to use ( I will say that in reloading lots and lots of ball nuts , if the shaft is in good shape, I have never used more than a 0.0008 oversize ball.)Pick up one oversize ball and install in the ball nut, rotate the shaft ( not the ball nut ) in the direction that takes the ball into the ball nut. Continue untill you can just see the balls comming thru the other side of the circut.Look at the cross tube and how it protrudes into the ball nut..Do not fill any higher than what would be the bottom of the tube..then use vasoline and fill the tube with balls, install on the ball nut complete with fastners.Now rotate the shaft holding the ball nut , should be firm, but not jumpy in your hand..too tight, your gonna ruin the entire assembly after things get warm., now do the other circut the same way. Do not allow any balls to get between the circuts, they will not rotate, will become galled and cause damage.

Salem Ball Co, Chrome 5120, grade 25 or better will work..They are very economical and have no minimum. Check their inventory for oversize in tenths.

Be patient, keep the kids and significant other away while you are re-loading..can cause divorces.

Adobe (old as dirt)

AM Glad to see the snow??? I seem to remember you giving me some crap about snow etc. in WI. My snow is gone, temp today in the 40's, world is gone nuts. Must be earth bio-cycles. Glad to see you back at it. lol.

Richard: Thanks for the nice words..Would you believe Christmas day was clear and 70 degrees ? The weather is wierd this year, to say the least.


Adobe (old as dirt)

Was finally able to spend some time on the Mill today and make some parts.

1st, Milled and drilled the mount pads for the Z axis DRO reader. These mount pad will be attachedto rear of the lathe, slightly below the Ball Screws, mounted to the machined surface that also supports the Ball Screw Mounts.I trammed the area that will support the mount pads in relation to the X axis saddle and my tenths dial indicator did not move. Squared the mounts, surfaced both sides to the same thickness, and drilled and reamed .001 over for two 1/4" pins and 2 ea 5/16 bolts for the mounts to the lathe. Drilled and
tapped 5 mm for the 1/2 milled DRO mount/stiffner.

I have a friend comming over tomorrow ( he works cheap, beer) to help me drill and tap into the lathe..I just can not bend over enough to do that operation, then we can measure and machine the link between the saddle and the reader.
The pictures show the mounts, 1/4 steel pins, the machined stiffner and one part of the link that came with the kit to install.

I also started on the holders for the limit switches..I did the CAD /CAM in Vector and got a big suprise..1st my Y axis went the wrong way (-y) and doubled the measurement..um..scratched my head awhile on that one..but finally figured out I had left lathe Macros in the program as I had last drawn some lathe test items..o'well, live and learn..

Just for fun and games I did run a 700 line program on the lathe ( no cutting yet) no faults, and with 2 dial indicators on the 2 axis, came back to 00..we will see after cutting.


Pictures in no particular order.

AM, I work semi-cheap, Pilsner Urquel. Spent a 6-pack on the net last night trying to find a candidate frame for another project, Monarch VMC-RT. All we need is the base with a good rotary table. Another of those "confidential" deals where you have to do all the design and costing before you get a go-ahead. Anyway, good to see you back in action. How you doing on the missing engine parts? I snooped around a little and discovered that the biplane was designed by Stearman and was supposedly equipped with a WWI V8 or so the guy who put the piece together says. lol

Well, you feel right at home here...It snowed again, almost as much as in Dec. I noticed the day it snowed, Minn. and Wisconsin had temps in the 60's and sunny..How many six packs a day do you get ? That sounds like expensive beer ?

Yes, that originally had a very heavy , water cooled V-8, that produced a the staggering amount of 90 hp..also pretty unreliable. The Wright 9 cylinder was a big boost, lighter and 225 hp...That is why the motor mounts were so ugly,they kinda did a fast-crappy job of installing the Wright. Have found no spare cylinders, just some completes..But at 50 grand some one in the family needs to hit the lottery..or find a moneyed sponser ( LOL)We may have to sell some playtoys 1st, as our wives are watching us( and the check books) real carefully..know what I mean ?

Adobe (old as dirt, but younger than Richard Zastrow, ha)

AM, I was in the Czech Republic to approve a large ( 113' X 17') floor type Skoda HBM for shipment. After approval, we were treated to a very good dinner at a local Pilzn pub called the Pilsner Urquel Brewery. Before, during and after dinner we consumed copious amounts of the original
pilsener lager. I,ve been drinking it ever since.
Price is not all that bad, $12.99 a 12 pack, taxes and all, here in WI. They are now owned by SAB (South African Brewing co) who also own Miller Brewing among many others. BTW, how did you get a picture of my car?

Ok no more than one 6 pack a day, I can afford you. That Mexican Hay Cart belongs to my wife ( Antique addict) and is chained very securley to the block wall..We bought it in Mexico and transported to here. I do not know why , but we got profiled bringing it back at the border entry..3 hours, they looked at everything, had the sniff dogs, pulled everything out of my Truck..Thank God, I had taken my rifle and amunition out before we left ..( I had forgotten it once, we actually spent 3 days in Mexico and were not stopped..had they found it , would be a nice siesta in a Mexican Jail ( real resorts, I understand) Had a neighbor accidently take his side arm, ammunition and holster into Mexico..hey 64 days, 25000 bucks plus his attorneys from both sides..man what a mess..plus his truck was stripped while he awaited getting out, his Insurance would not pay, because he was "involved" in a Felony..They are serous about no guns..of course all the bad guys have them..

Mounted the Z axis DRO reader and cover.You can see how we ( mostley by friend that came to help me due to my" positional challenges") installed the milled plates and stiffner. I have big hands, and those 5mm allen head fastners are a PITA..spent 30 minutes looking for one that got dropped, would hate to work with things that small all day. Hooked up the Z axis to the DRO head and ran the lathe real fast in the Z axis to machine maximum and still no backlash..at 25 inches it seems that there is a difference of
.00047 according to the DRO..I'm not gonna fuss with it ..that is close, and we will see if it holds that good of tolerance when cutting.

pictures in no particular order..kinda getting crowded in the back of the lathe, but there is no more going back there any way. The X axis reader is a little easier to mount and get to, so will do that after I finalise the lube lines
(now everything is in, I can use steel line, and clean that mess up.) Getting close, I'm anxious to start cutting, but if I don not take care of these last few things before using, then it seems they never get done..

Adobe (old as dirt)

Mark Wrathall, (Rotary SMP) was kind enough to research for an Automatic Tool Changer and found this web site..http://www.cnc-projects.de/

It is all in German, but I was in awe looking at this guys projects. The workmanship is just outstanding to say the least,The design typical German, just very complicated, and stout..Did I mention complicated ?The wiring and electronics, although very neat and organised on the one CNC project, looks like he could run 5 machines ,lots of it !Would hate to trouble shoot electrical problems on that CNC.

I download the plans for the "Pistol",(ATC) which means , If I'm correct, I now know one German word, besides gesunheit. Super plans, and they downloaded into Vector CAD/CAM which is what I use. I do have to "select" each tool path to generate G code, but I have already done 5 of the drawings , generated the G code, printed out 1 to1, and now can see how it will be assembled.

Some place along the line I will have to get some German help, as I'm sure there are some written instructions that will be needed to assemble.

Vector came from Germany originally,and is very popular in the industrial sector in Europe as a CAD/CAM program .Was very happy to see the drawings download into Vector CAD /CAM.

I'm sure you will enjoy this guy's web site..If any one speaks German, can you tell if CNC is this guy's Hobby ? Looks very professional and well engineered. Inspired me anyway.


Adobe (old as dirt)

AM, I have a book called Klett's Modern German and English Dictionary I used in another life while employed @ Siemens for the same reason. Even though I,m of German heritage, I do not speak it very well. There are even 2 towns in Mecklenberg with my family name. Goes back to the old days of "Junkers class" land owners. If you want to borrow it, email your snail mailing address. Keep it till you,re done with your project or buy your own. It comes in handy when messing around with Pfauter, Leibherr, Hermle etc. machines. Got to go now, official P/U glass is MT.

Its actually pretty simple, one of the dxf files is a cut away, the name of the file is revolve3.dxf. When you open this file you will find that everything is numbered, You will also find an .xls file, if you have microsoft office one of the newer version it has a translator function built in to it. How do I know this, well that is because I found it a couple of months ago, mine is nearly complete. I am waiting on my air line to come, hopefully this week. It looks pretty promising. You need to look at some of the dimensions, especially where the shaft passes through the hubs that bolt on to the outer case. After conversion the fits were interference fits ...not good. I plan on modifiying this design as time goes on. I want to have bearings in it to improve the life span. I will attach pics of mine so far... I have been following your thread for a long time... and I want to take this oppentunity to say you are doing some amaizing work!!!

Richard Z, thanks you have a PM..Invatation still stands !
GaryCorlew, thanks for the kind words..I did find the file revolve3.dxf and that will help..

Tolerances: Both Vector CAD/CAM and Desk CNC can function in metric, so I'm downloading and generating G Code in metric, a simple check mark in DeskCNC will convert to metric. Do you feel there is still a problem with fits and tolerances, and where did you run into a problem ? I will try the language converter this evening..

Pictures of your project would be pricless..How long have you been working on the revolver..?

Adobe (still not as old as Richard Zastrow )

AM, Got the PM. Book should be on the way Tues. 35 deg. @ 10:00 AM today. Supposed to snow 3"-7" tonight. Thanks for the invite but I'll need to win a large payoff lottery to travel anywhere. Would love to though. BTW Richard aka Dick Zastrow= DZASTR It's on my lisence plates, was on my boat hulls, racing and trail sleds, all helmets etc. It's both a name and description.

The one's you need to look at are items 10 & 11 the hole in these converted to .668 (if I remember correctly) and the main shaft item 9 converted to .669. I think there was a couple of more problems with 10 & 11 fitting into the outer case item 1 but I am not sure on that. After spending what I considered to much time correcting what I thought were problems I just decided to scrap fixing it and just redoing the whole thing, My thinking on this was that I was going to use sae parts anyways so why not just go ahead and get it done the way I needed it to be. I used parts from sdp-si and mcmastercarr. I also made the main shaft bigger and made it from two pieces rather than one because it was easier and faster for me to make. I will get some pics for you in the next day or so. Did you get the xls file converted to english? If you'd like you can pm me your email address and I can send it to you.

Richard Zastrow :I would not want to invite "disaster", it has followed me around pretty hard at times, we named the boat "Blue Bayou" (Blown Alcohol Hydro)and had number 777..did not help much.. 3 hulls in one season .. Thanks a bunch again..Hey, told you I would pay, 2 6 packs a day .. 11 degrees in the shop this morning, whew, I now have empathy for you guys who have this kind of cold all the time..Machines did not like it either.. broke some kind of record here, never been that cold in the last 126 years..

GaryCorlew: I can not seem to down load, PM you right away.Thanks very much !

Adobe (old as dirt)

AM, Books on the way. 5 deg. this morning. We got 4.5" white stuff. BTW we tied our record of 31 days of above freezing for daily high temp in Dec.-Jan. It was colder in AZ than WI. One of my wooden boats used that old tag of "Hot Knots". Another one was "Tiki II" both "Piloted by DZASTR" How would you like to see that on the cabin door of your next commercial flight? I like your "Blew By You" soon

In Vienna we have had a couple of light frosts lately, but mostly it has been 10-15°C and sunny each day. The ski fields are all closing and they are trucking snow from the highest peaks, and using a helicopter to spread it on the famous downhill course for the race this week end.

Then you turn on the news and see pictures of snow in San Diego.

Bizarre!

Thanks to Gary Corlew I have more of the ATC puzzel solved, and was able to open and save 2 more items...

Richard Zastrow was kind enough to send a German to English dictionary so should be able to stumble through the assembly instructions..And I thought Laotion and Vietnamise were hard to interput..Of course at age 19 was looking for something a little different than technical drawings..

Almost finished making a central oil log with valves and redoing the oil lines in steel, when that is finished, then can start on the X axes DRO sending unit. I'm going to combine the sending unit link to the cross slide and trips for the limit switches.

Will be able to post pictures tomorrow,like I said spending half a day going to Therapy and the road time is killing the good time in the shop...Maybe only one more week..

Again thanks Guys..

Adobe (old as dirt )

Adobe Machine , the German site you linked to. If you go to Google & look to the right of the screen you will see Language Tools. Click it & go to the bottom, there will be a place that you can take the URL from the German site & paste it. Click enter & it will bring the German site up all translaited for you.<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_245333", true); </SCRIPT>


The lathe is looking fantastic, great work. When are we going to see some chips from that puppy.



Jess

Lucky13: Thank you for that information..Although it is a little literal, does not take much to figure out what is being said..In fact spent a couple of hours looking at some other German websites..Very intresting , taking some time to "Tour" other European contries and their web sites.How long has this language conversion for the web been in effect ?

I should be making chips withen a couple of weeks, only two more therapy sessions to go . I'm finally getting able to leave the wheel chair for longer periods of time and gaining some energy and strength..Been a real bear this time on bouncing back..just a real PITA for some reason.

Still working on the oil system and common block, should be done with that by tomorrow afternoon, then the X axis limit switches and X axis DRO reader.The last item will be the encoder hook up for the spindle.

I have moved the lathe a little, so must re-leval which I have someone to help with, then re-set the tailstock . The 1st couple of cuts will be with the 4 jaw chuck, then get to install my new 6 jaw set-tru.

We are going to make some videos and will be posted on my neighbors web site as he has lots of room, we did a trial run, the video came out real nice and clear.

Again , thanks for the info

Adobe (old as dirt)

AM, As to the rehab etc. being a PITA, next time try landing on your head like I did. Has it's drawbacks though; I was 6' now I'm 5'-4". 500# of snowmobile, 200# of me all landed on my upside down helmet @ 120+ mph. Point of impact 77 feet down range from launch. I didn't feel a thing till I woke up in the hospital. Dr. Anice (we pronounced it anus) asked if would ever get on a snowmobile again. I said it's like a horse, you must get back on. Thats when he called me a "dumb SOB" keep on keepin' on

Lucky13: Thank you for that information..Although it is a little literal, does not take much to figure out what is being said..In fact spent a couple of hours looking at some other German websites..Very intresting , taking some time to "Tour" other European contries and their web sites.How long has this language conversion for the web been in effect ?

LOL, I really dont know how long its been there. To tell the truth I wouldnt know about it if it wasnt for my Son. I guess the younger guy grow up with this stuff (computors) the boy has helped me learn a lot in this area. And I thought I was suppost to be getting him ready for the world, not the other way around.

I should be making chips withen a couple of weeks, only two more therapy sessions to go . I'm finally getting able to leave the wheel chair for longer periods of time and gaining some energy and strength..Been a real bear this time on bouncing back..just a real PITA for some reason.

A little expiereance in this area myself. I just shut down my own performance shop because back & neck problems. I have dealt with it all my life though. And this time around I wasnt able to bounce back & keep going. It does get harder as time goes by thats for sure. But as all things seem to have two sides to them now I am learning more than I ever did about things. Looking for something to put my time & skills into has brought me to a pretty good group of people here. I dont think I have ever seen so many skilled & helpfull people as right here in this forum.

When the weather breaks I sould be getting my own machines up & running. I only hope I get them going as good as your results have been. Which brings me to a question. I have no lathe at all right now. I found a good deal on a Leblond 10x54 that is in good shape. I dont know how long you have had your machine but was wandering what you thought of it? They must hold up well, every one I see is still going. Can they do pretty good precision work? I am only going to have so much room, so I need a machine that can do a pretty good range of work. I cant be putting in two or three lathes. Maybe a good percision bench top plus a good size lathe but not two bigger lathes. I thought about a Monarch but there to short between the centers. With the LaBlond being close & priced good I dont want to pass it up if its a good machine. I noticed they have replacable ways, this is odd. Is this something they need on a regulor basis? The one I am looking at has good ways but just wandered. I bet it aint cheap to replace them?


Looking forward to seeing the chips fly on your new lathe, should do good.


Jess

Hi Adobe, Well I finally had time to take some pics of the tool changer. Did you get the excel file to open that I sent you? The parts are laid out in the order it goes together.

Adobe,
I have a question for Gary on his tool indexer and I promise not to add a lot unrelated post or questions not directly related to your project.
BTW, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading about and watching your project come together, workmanship looks top shelf.


Gary,
How did you determine the final center height of your indexer ?

Thanks
Ken

Well Ken, I got the plans from a german site. I don't remember if the link is in adobe's thread or not but it is on the zone somewhere, so for the most part I used those plans. I found out after looking at them that some of the fits were interference fits so I knew that that was not going to work very well. I started editing some of the parts and it was starting to take longer to fix the problems than I wanted to spend on it(the parts were converted from acis (*.sat) files) So I kind of trashed the whole idea of fixing the problems and started fresh, but I printed all of the converted files as a guide, and as far as the center height, well I just built it. My boss has a jet lathe I don't know the actual size but I think its around 15 x 60 I measured it once and it was about 3" from the top of the cross slide to the center of the chuck, I also measured a harbor freight one(one of the mini's) and it also was almost 3" so I am assuming that as long as it is less than 3" it should be good to go. What I will do when my CFO (wife) allows me to spend some more money(I built a cnc router spent about 4,000 on that) I am going to buy a lathe. Even though I was hired as an IT guy I run the cnc milling machine most of the time at work and I also run it at night for more money. When I get a lathe I will just mill out a spacer to go under the indexer to make it the right height and then my plan is to drill and tap the cross slide and bolt it down.

I had gotten those same plans some time back and began to convert them to English but that got old real quick :D

I will say that Dieter does some beautiful work.

Thanks for the info on the center height Gary

Ken

Dzastor, that nickname fits ! Not many people would survive that hard of collision and live..Whew, to crush a body that hard and live to tell about it !
I lost .700 inches on this last wreck, could not imagine losing 8 or more !


Lucky13: Yes, the LeBlond as been a good lathe,got it at auction in the '80s was 5 years old at the time. Used in production untill 2002 when I sold my shop, but the purchasers only wanted the CNC equipment, so I kept it and the Pratt Whitney. Did have a 17 inch chuck come apart ( operator was running it way too fast ) and do a little superficial damage under the chuck.
Just before I started the Pratt-Whitney Lathe conversion the electric brake on the LeBlond blew up, after calling for the price of a new unit, I quickley decided that we could not afford to go new and factory, so I fabricated a hydraulic disk brake using a wrecking yard rotor ,disk caliper and master cylinder. The disk and pully hub for the elec. motor were machined, then located the caliper. ( see pictures ) I did extend the sheet metal away from the lathe using 1 1/2 tubing, then hinged it for access. The foot portion of the brake extends the full length under the drip pan, made out of some 2" round tubing and welded together, pivioted at each end into the stands of the lathe.Works good, total cost under $80.00.
I have also installed a new Acme screw and nut for the cross slide, and made a better way to oil the nut and acme screw.
Yes, the ways are replaceable, and a small fortune new.In the late 90's I removed them and had a grinder in Phoenix surface them..He told me that they were some of the hardest steel he had ever ground. On the backside they took less than .003 to clean and on the front side way, .004 to clean. This is a factory reccomended repair, and when I reinstalled them, re-levaled the lathe and set the tailstock, there was little ,if any taper over 55 inches. The grinder charged me $200.00 ( $100.00 / way). The saddle has adjustment pads for wear. I use a Dial indicator on both axis, and can hold tenths if I concentrate..The machine produces a nice finish,even when we used it to turn shafts up to 18". Hope that helps your evaluation of the one you are looking at.

Mr Gary Corlew..Yes we did get the file open and thank you very much, the German puzzel is being revealed. I have about half the G gode generated and edited. Thanks for the pictures, that answers more questions !

Pictures of the LeBlond lathe brake retrofit

Adobe (old as dirt)

AM, The 8" was a tonque in cheek type joke. The only bruise on me was a 3" dia. spot where the end of the right handle bar punched into my right shoulder. That mashed my right brachial plexus (main nerve trunk right shoulder/arm/ wrist etc.) took 4yrs to regain 50% of use of right arm. That's where it is now. My neck is now 22 1/2" but I blame that on pizza & PU. Did that dictionary ever show up? Had that dilated pupil eye exam today and now I'm squinting. Later

Richard Zastrow: Yes, THANKS..Got it This last Friday in good shape.Will get this German ATC cleaned up and return to you..

Finally finished the way and ball nut oiling system.Oils all sliding and turning parts in the cross slide and Z axis saddle.

I squared a block of 6061 T-6, drilled and cross drilled 6 holes for tapping
1/8th pipe ( Q drill), tapped and installed 5, 1/8p X 1/4" compression needle valve fittings. Drilled and countersunk 2, 5/16 holes for attachment bolts.

After attaching the oil log to the lathe ran individual steel lines to the oiled points, tightned and tested everything. With the needle valves for each circut, I can adjust flow and turn them off so that there is no leak back or syphon back to the pump.

No more thearpy ! So I can devote a lot more time to finishing..next is the X axis DRO sender, and incorporated into that will be the overtravel switches for the X axis.

Pictures in no order, but after finishing I did "Play" a little..

Adobe (old as dirt)

AM, Now I,m even older than older than you. Turned 66 today. FYI its -9f with a wind chill of -35f. Thats the bad news. Good news is my oil pressure is really high. Also, the PU stays cold on the way home from the store. Glad to hear you finished your rehab. Keep on truckin'

Richard Zastrow: Dzaster, Dzaster.. Ok you win, your older..73 degrees here all day.. lost a pedical screw on the fusion hardware , lumbar region Sat morn, just got out of the hospital this afternoon, O'well, this is being fun.. Happy birthday,, any reconsider on comming out here yet ? Son says Penn is cold, snow and windy..Flying out of Baltimore is real trying..know what I mean ?

Adobe (younger than Dzaster now ! )

Adobe, Like them young snots say "Wa's up"? haven't heard from you since I got older. I'm working on a 3 speed planetary transmission with minimal backlash. 'nother one of those "projects" (shhhhh). I'll mail you some stuff on this, you'll love it. Got the idea from a NASA thing. Post up and let us know.

Dear sir
I have some confusion. Pl take it lightly. I have also a lathe 6' swiss make. i am also intrested for retrofitting the same to cnc. my question is when i get the machine retrofitted, all the controls eg gear changing, lead screw, feed rod will be in function? what about single point tool?

SANJIV: The amount of modifications needed to retrofit a lathe is TOTALLy depandant on:

1. The condition of the lathe.
2. The amount of automation that the retrofitter desires to incorporate.
3. The amount of engineering and/or machine integration that the do-it-yourself type person is able/capable of performing.

A lathe that is was CNC based before and has NO change gears or other geared infeed capabilities would require a fully integrated CNC package - not a task for beginners. Do a search for "lathe retrofit" on CNC Zone - this topic has been discussed in great detail and it is NOT an easy thing to do and/or do well. This is NOT as "friendly" a retrofit as a mill retrofit to CNC.

A lathe that has a lot of change gears already fitted to it would require a totally different set of modifications to get the change gears to shift automatically or, conversely to tear out the gearing and replace all the feed mechanisms with servo's or steppers - this could be a MAJOR tear up and not worth the effort in the long run.

What are you trying to do??? You might be better of buying a CNC lathe than to try to turn a fully geared machine into something that it was never intended to be....

Dont make it more difficult than it is:-) Why is it so much more difficult than retrofitting a mill? For hobby usage one could as a beginning be satisfied with just the x-z control, later on, maybe add-on the spindle control. As with everything else, take it step by step and eventually you will get there. Proberly you will have spend more money and time than it would have cost to by a cnc lathe, but what the heck, this is what hobby is about:)

Memo to Guldberg: do a "lathe retrofit" search on this website.

When/if you do it, you'll find several horror stories relating to guys who bought lather retrofit packages from reputable outfits and had control problems, lathes that spit billets out of the machine and/or totally unsatisfactory retrofit experiences.

And this was reported with SEVERAL high end retrofit systems. I'm not making it more difficult than it is, only reporting what sort of problems other people reported on this exact same topic.

BTW, I'm still waiting for a promised contact back from one of the MAJOR lathe/mill retrofit outfits that come "highly recommended" - an inquiry that was asked for nearly a year ago.

As was reported in my prior lathe retrofit threads on this site, retrofitting a lathe (especially a CNC lathe that already has servos fited that only needs a controller update) is NOT a plug and play project nor is it as easy as a mill retrofit. Period. Paragraph.

Caveat emptor.

Maybe you got a point on retrofit package, personally i was thinking on DIY solutions for the DIY person, no buisness here. Its a matter of specification requirement:-)

Retrofitting a lathe, regardless of who does it, is NOT a plug and play project.

This is ESPECIALLY true if you're looking to make a servo based system will real time servo feedback to the controller. Notice the word SERVO as some applications are not suitable for sterppers which eliminates MACH from this aspect of the discussion.

It doesn't matter if it is DIY or machine shop retrofit or hobby intent, getting a lathe to work properly is NOT easy.

There are safety issues to consider and, especially for threading, there are spindle to feed screw timing issues that have to be unerringly kept. Definitely NOT for the inept or those who haphazardly do things.

Think a lathe retrofit is easy and/or the support is merely a phone call away from your preferred vendor? Check out the following:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8803

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22723&highlight=lathe+retrofit

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22918&highlight=lathe+retrofit

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20895&highlight=lathe+retrofit

Hehe, ive seen you argumenting for this in other threads here one the forum:-) Ive said it before, its a matter of specification requirement, for hobby usage, no reason why steppers and mach wouldnt work. Would i trust my buisness with it, never! Can i use it for all my DIY work, no problem at all. Backlash, sure, but its a matter of how you do the code most of the time, i can manage to hit it within a couple of 0.01's (mm).
What i will give you is, dont expect to make a full size lathe do production runs with just the flick of a switch

Hello..two weeks in a hospital, 3 weeks in an "after care" (pumped up name for a nursing home, bad food, noise all night and bad smells 1/2 room,
$5,000/mo, just B.S.)..started out simple, got complicated when I was able to get my self out of a high hosbital bed at 0300 hrs in the morning, as a nursing assistant "forgot to bring up the sides", including 3 I.V.'s and pumps on my lower legs..what a mess, I guess was in all kinds of body fluids on the floor when they found me..required more surgery..this was in a very high rated hospital that we just got a bill from ( hosbital only) $342,391.64..jeeze, I almost fell out when I read that..anyway: The day before I entered the hospital,I got anxious to try the lathe..The lathe worked real good, excellent finish, compound curves, just what I drew, except..I DID NOT PROGRAM THE TOOLING CORRECT..Desk CNC uses a term called "bottom angle" which I mis-interped as total angle of the insert...this gave me wierd angles to the part, especially on the edges where I specified a radius..I had to run the simulation about 5 times before I caught my mistake, and a friend came over in the evening that caught the mistake immediatly..

Will be a couple of weeks before I'm up to "snuff", I'm still on Percocet and other drugs, still having trouble concentrating( I now have the attention span of an attorney, matching a 5 year old kid)and even reading and typing..would like to mention that all in all, the 8 inch long by 3 inch round part did hold tenths , and had an excellent finish...I still have a bit (lots) to finish on the lathe...but looks like it will pertform as I wanted as an open bed CNC lathe than can cut threads, profiles and tapers accuratley .

I would like to thank NC Cams and Richard Zastrow who contacted me when they became concerned, along with every one else..I say THANKS..
My only excuse they had no WYFI, but I'm not sure that I would not have made much sense anyway.

One of my main E mail address had 2418 E mails when we got home,most some real bad stuff, so I closed it out..I just could not go through it all , so axing it looked simpler..

THANKS EVERY ONE

Adobe ( old as dirt, and feeling like it )

Adobe, hang in there bud. I have had my share of things myself. I am sure you know, but when it comes time to lay the Perks down it want be a fun thing if you know what I mean. Just take care & give things the time needed. The lathe can wait. Besides, we want get to see the results of your sweat work you have done if you get out there & hurt something before your ready to handle it. Heck if your like me, its become a part of life, I have learned to deal with it so much that I could run a machine or HotRod on my worst day. But still no use in pushing things.


Take care, we can wait on Machine Porn until your up to it. Although your machine will be some sweat porn, and I am sure everyone else is like me & will be looking forward to seeing the end results, its not going to hurt us to wait till your ready.

Thats good to here she is holding tenths, even though there may be a learning curve to go though before it becomes second nature.

Jess

Pretty much out of the wheelchair..So back at the lathe..I installed my new 6 jaw "Tru-Set" chuck with a friends help. I installed the chucks backing plate and trued to the lathe drive ( took about .005 off) then reduced the center to .010 under the chucks size..should give plenty of room to adjust.

I had little problem getting it to .001 TIR, but getting to tenths was a real challenge..I had to walk away twice as it was a little frustrating, but after about an hour it came to almost" 0". I torqued the fastners to 41 ft. lbs, and rechecked, it held tolerance.

Being anxous to really see how the lathe would perform,I drew up a random lathe project in Vector, and down loaded into Desk CNC, which included arcs, angles and some turning. I used Ron Hill's "Lathe quick Turn" ( a CNC Zone member)I had purchased from IM Machine to bring the material to size. This brought the material to .0005 of final size, then started the lathe project from there.

The pictures are random, but you can see how nice the finish is, the part was exactley as drawn, the tolerance was under .001 into tenths.

As you can see, I still do not have the coolant system installed, nor the X axis reader ( I just used my dial indicator to check accuracy), nor the set up for chuck RPM, which is needed to thread accuratley.

Tomorrow I will install the coolant recovery system and tubing, then start on installing the chuck speed encoder.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Lucky 13...Yes you were very correct about a learning curve..

My experiance this after noon: I designed some of the Encoder drive in Vector CAD/CAM, and forget to check "Bottom to Top"( the program changes "Y" to "x")then generated the G code, WITHOUT RUNNING A SIMULATION 1ST! da aa da a, wow..

I did the set up, punched "go" and unfortunatley the machine did exactley what the G code called for:A "Z" minus ( toward the chuck) on the center line of the part..it got .443 thru the stock before I hit the EM stop..What a mess, Even had to re-zero the 6 jaw Tru Set Chuck..My hands were shaking ,I was shaking after the accident, one, one inch tool was damaged.

I did go back and run a simulation, and had I just taken that step, would have seen the problem. I also checked all of the tolerances, and fortunately had not damaged any other systems. I was a little suprized that the servo did not fault and was still trucking untill the EM switch was hit ?

Anyway, usually I'm very cautious, but took a short cut that almost cost me a machine and $ $ $ we do not have, my advice.. Check your G codes, simulate 1st and concentrate on the tool path. Just a real dumb mistake that should never have happened...!

Adobe (really older than dirt tonight)

welcome back Adobe Machine

Wander where you had disappeared


keep up the good work

cheers

Thank you all, and especially NC Cams and Richard Zastrow who made an effort to personally contact me to wish "speedy recovery".

After doing the profiles and proving accuracy ( and teaching me a lesson in saftey..IE run a simulation 1st) I installed the coolant ( I use High sulpher cutting oil, always have, its good to the machines and tooling and my wife has learned to put up with the strange smell) delivery and recovery system. Bought the ENCO 10 gallon system, installed a one inch stand pipe in the catch basin, and used double screens on the ENCO return.I was pleasently suprized at the quality of the system for just a little over $100 bucks, the tank has 3 settling areas that will catch the metal and debris( plus the screens) and what appears to be a good pump. Routed the pressure side to a return that is circulating the oil, then to a pipe system I got off an old lathe that was being parted out ...Can control the flow with the flow knob. I did clean the system and put in new "0" rings, works quite well for $10.00 plus "0"rings. I still have some work controlling the drips at the end of the lathe, but a little silicon caulk should solve.

Installed the Spindle Encoder kit purchased from IM Machine, but screwed up on the instructions and again almost had another crash..I faxed Fred Smith @ IM Machine and he called back immediatley to point out my "little mistake"..with the changes he instructed, the program written by Ron Hill and sold through IM Machine works perfect..Actually better than any thread I've done manually. The thread was a 5/8 -18, the program did 20 passes and 2 "dwell" passes,very quickley and accurate,the thread pitch, major and minor measurements exactley out of the Machinest Handbook.

The pictures are in no order..You can see the spindle encoder. Have decided if the project is over 77 inches, I will just have to use my manual LeBlond lathe..that is if I remember how to thread manually after using the CNC for awhile...remember old people have to forget some things in order to remember new things.

Adobe (old as dirt)

That really is a stunning looking build Adobe - congratulations!

It always amazes me just how much material my tiny CNC mill can remove in an instant when it's trying to cut itself or a fixture in half :( Despite simulation, I always find the first sets of cuts of a new program rather nerve wracking! But once you get used to it, seeing the tool less than 1mm away from something it really shouldn't bump into doesn't seem all that scary - as long as it's moving in the 'safe' direction ;)

Like I said,I'm usually pretty careful,but just one little mistake...also the 1st two movements were G00, which on the long Z axis is about 200 inches/minute ( I have since reduced that to 90 inches /minute), so in the blink of an eye a lot of damage can be done to tooling and machines, even people with flying parts..

When this was a manual machine,I ran the saddle into the chuck, made some noise but did not hurt much...I was talking on my 1st cell phone while doing a prototype part, and decided then I would never talk on any kind of phone while machining. A few years later an employee crashed our 1st CNC Mill, and later admited he was arguing with his ex-wife on his cell phone. That cost me about $3500.00 bucks if I remember correctly.

I instituted a policy that no cell phones were allowed except during breaks and lunch, made some workers mad at first, but all admitted that no one can really concentrate and talk on a phone.

Respect the machinery and what it can damage, even small mills and lathes can jerk fingars off in a milli-second..Hobbies are for fun, but hurting your self and possibly not be able to work at your regular job while recovering is no fun. Hey people get hurt sky-diving , right ?

And "Digits", thank you for your kind words.

Adobe (old as dirt)

Adobe, I see you changed your "sign off". Weren't you happy being "Older than dirt"? Does being merely "Old as dirt" make you feel younger? Just kidding!!!

Keep on tryiing to avoid those crashes. As we both know, S*** happens.

Adobe,

Great project!!

Can you still move the saddle with the hand wheel? Or did you disable it?


Thanks

Yes, with the servos turned off I can move both the Z and X axis by hand..but I do not like back driving the very tight ball nuts in Z,as you can see that is a 90 degree backdrive.

Frankley, it is much faster and way easier to move the axis's with the Desk CNC program.I find I might position the X axis with the vice handwheel, like say .002-.003to touch off a part to obtain X0, but since the total system has been hooked up,I have not used handwheels in either X or Z.

We did have the electricity go out while I was turning a part,the DRO "remembers"the axis position when shut down, and all I had to do was use a utility in desk CNC to install the right position # and line #. Really a good utility to work with..

Adobe (old as dirt)

Frankley, it is much faster and way easier to move the axis's with the Desk CNC program.I find I might position the X axis with the vice handwheel, like say .002-.003to touch off a part to obtain X0, but since the total system has been hooked up,I have not used handwheels in either X or Z.



I couldn't agree more - I bought double-shaft steppers when I did my CNC conversion, but I have never regretted not fitting handles to them - why on earth would I want to move the axes and not have the computer know about it? I use a USB joystick for jogging which is pretty good, but I am considering a manual-pulse-generator wheel for accurately touching off.

The manual pulse generator wheel sounds real intresting..Would you post a wiring diagram when yours is done ? Would help a lot of people understand how that would work...I can see some real advantages to a system like that for quick X0Y0Z0 placement.

Thanks

Adobe (old as dirt)

The manual pulse generator wheel sounds real intresting..Would you post a wiring diagram when yours is done ? Would help a lot of people understand how that would work...I can see some real advantages to a system like that for quick X0Y0Z0 placement.

Thanks

Adobe (old as dirt)

I think the wiring is pretty simple - I believe the encoder has two quadrature outputs which give enough info to work out which direction it is turning as well as how fast. The magic is all done by Mach 3, which reads the inputs from the dial and converts them to jogs back out to the motors. Have a look at the instructions on the littlemachine shop page - they seem pretty good to me.

Cheers.

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938

WOW...another"gotta have" I'm going to fax Fred Smith @I.M. service, he is the absolute "Guru" on DESK CNC (and electronics as I've found out)..He will be able to tell us yes or no on integration of that systems to my Tree Mill and the CNC Lathe project.

Thanks ..what a GREAT FIND !

Adobe (older than dirt)













'

Adobe,

If you get an answer from Fred, pls. let me know as I'd like to go for this wheel on my DeskCNC setup too.

Thanks

Paraprop

Even using double ball nuts, I still stuff the front ( fixed, the one with the flange ) baLL nut with oversize balls ( chrome steel, 52100, grade 25), and just use the factory balls in the tension nut ( the tension nut does not drive, it only puts tension on the ball nut and the shaft )
In the pictures below, you can see how I set up to reload ball nuts.
1st I set the shaft in the lathe, and clean the shaft. Next I empty the factory balls in one container. I measure at least 30% of the balls, to determine if they loaded with oversize or staggered. They did not, all factory balls measured .1248 to .1249..close enough. I then prepped 2 dishes for oversize balls (.1252 and .1253) and marked my table that I use under the shaft for tools and to have a "catcher" plastic dish in case one gets dropped ( only 2 today). Then I load the empty ball nuts and hardware on the shaft and remount on the lathe...I shift the lathe in neutral and turn off the electrical to the lathe OFF as a saftey item. I begin loading, one ball in each, turn the chuck while holding the nuts and watch the balls disappear, keep loading and turning the same direction. I do keep the nut wet with oil, putting a little in every 3-4 balls.Pretty soon you can see balls appearing in the other side of the circut, do not let them go past where the tubes go in, they will forever be in no mans land and not recirculate !Next, use vasoline ( if a cool day, grease if a hot day) and fill 1/2 of the split recirculating tube with balls, then press the 2 sides together and install on the nut.I do install fastners at this time. It is important to turn the ball nut through the entire range, see if binds or jumps, or is loose. This was not any of the above, no the next step is installation of the shaft on the machine.

Picture 1 : My way of settting up and organising to stuff balls.

Picture 2 & 3 : Unloaded nuts and hardware on the shaft.

Picture 4 : Containers and tools

Picture 5 : Almost done

Picture 6 : Done

Picture 7: After running up and down the shaft, now ready for install.

Next : Installation of the ballshaft, testing for backlash, torquing fastners,and running the Z axis through the full 33" inches.

Adobe (old as dirt)

This is a very nice post good work!

I have question about the double ball nuts.

I have been looking in McMastercarr and you can buy
round and square with treads or flanges.

The see a flanged ball nut and a treaded ball nut and a collar with a set screw.
How did you attach the collar with the set screw to the back of the flanged ball nut?


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u315/TTAWD/jsw_finished_z_axis_ball_shaft_and_.jpg

The only criticism of the quote posted in #212 is the use of Vaseline for an assembly lubricant.

Yes the stuff is "petroleum jelly" but it is NOT necessarily a suitable lubricant for metal to metal items. Much more suitable "packing greases" would include but not necessarily be limited to Shell Alvania #2, Exxon Beacon 325 or Lubriplate 105 - all are light greases and Alvania #2 is actually used and recommended for ball screw lubing by NSK.

Save the Vaseline for baby bottoms and/or chapped hands - not as a machinery assembly lube.

PS to Adobe - I hope you're back up and running since your surgery. We've been swamped and are actually looking forward to some upcoming slack time to catch our breadth. P/M me when/if you can.

I think the Vaseline was for holing the balls in place,
not used as a lube.

I could be wrong but the only time he talks about Vaseline is when he puts the balls in the transfer tube,
the others go in with oil.

Lubriplate 105 is an assembly grease, but I think it may contain a moly component to it for metal to metal sliding protection. I would be a bit reserved in using it to pack all bearings or at least I understood, that was the general rule above a couple hundred RPM. The only thing I have ever used it on is bushings and worm gear applications.

Here we go again with Vaseline as a viable lube for machine tool use.:eek::D:D:D Maybe.......Only if you are checking its tempurature with a rectal thermometer!:p

DC

Maybe.......Only if you are checking its tempurature with a rectal thermometer!:p DC


LOL!

The problem with Vaseline is that is a water soluble lubricant. Hence, its solubility with other pertroleum lubes is/can be suspect. In an imperfect world, the stuff could (not will gum up when it tries to mix with other lubes later on). Moreover, it is NOT noted for having good film strength which is/can be critical for some applications. Again, Vaseline is great for baby bottoms and thermometers - it ain't necessarilly a good rolling or sliding MACHINE element grease.

The other lubes mentioned (Alvania, Beacon and 105) will do the same thing - assembly lube and/or hold balls in place. These will also tend to intermix with other lubes that may be applied later on - especially Alvania as it is an approved ball screw lube.

Over the years, Vaseline HAS been use for a lot of things it probably shouldn't be - I even know of a case where some well intended soul used it for cam assembly -BUZZZ, WRONG, NO, NEGATIVE, DON"T GO THERE. Yes it worked for years but when he did a high buck "race cam" and it promptly ate itself, he found the one situation where it shouldn't and didn't work.

One tries to quash the use of incorrect urban legends when one can.....

T

Thanks for the concern NC..Yes I feel much better, although I can feel and see some of the hardware in the Thoracic region, there is little discomfort. I am actually walking 1/4 to 1/2 mile every day, and back to almost regular workouts..will be back in the shop soon.
As to the vasoline: I used it to hold the balls in the split return tube, since all the ball nuts have been plumbed to an oil pump, the vasoline is washed out with the way oil.

As to the ball nuts: I do not know about Mc Master-Carrs product, I used Rockwell BMF series fixed angular bearing mounts and the double ball nuts come in kit form. the lead ball nut is attached to flange by threading and a set acrew, the second or tensioner ball nut has a stack of tension washers and the tension nut to press the ball nuts apart. Go to rockfordballscrew.com, they have a lot of info that may help you engineer a system.
I used the lathe the other day to make a shaft for a compressor that had broken (local Auto repair) which was really very complicated, had some real odd ball threads (.677 X 16 th-inch) and 4 different diameters..I drew it up in Vector , transferred to Desk CNC and watched it whittle away on the lathe, and except for one manual tool change, it was like watching paint dry..Part came out to .0003 in all dimeters, and .0008 on all lengths ( Z axis) the threads were perfect, both the major and minor diameters and pitch were right on.Machine time was less than 30 minutes ( I will not tell anyone how long the rest took me, seemed like days, but thats what the pain killers do).

THANKS AGAIN!

Adobe Machine (old as dirt)

Are you using Mach3 ?

Adobe, Welcome back!!!!

TT 350: No, I'm using Desk CNC to run both the Mill and Lathe, and Vector 11 as the CAD/CAM program ( Mill is a retrofitted Tree 10 X 50", that now has 4 axis capabilites),I also use a program called CLGG or "Lathe Quick" written by Ron Hill, a member of this forum, that can Thread ANY SAE or Metric thread, turn diameters, drill or groove . The program is a "fill in " or conversational type, using regular G and M code commands, the one big requirement is that the spindle RPM can be tracked,and the feed of the Z axis be controlled by the program.I got all of the programs from imserv@imsrv.com. Their after sale service and help is just been very, very good.

DZASTR..! Good to hear from you too ! I'm making good progress this time. Surgeons used a very new method and hardware system that gives some flexability as opposed to complete rigid stabilization ( L1 to S1)..actually feel great, finally after 5 years...

Adobe (older than dirt, but younger than DZASTR!)

Adobe, NC Cams spilled his age in another posting. He was in high school in the late 60's. Young whipper-snapper. I know this should be in a PM, but this is easier. Now that you're up and around, do you have any inclination to pilot drag boats? My doctor called me a dumb SOB when I told him I would do just like a thrown horseman and climb back on my snowmobiles. Back to your thread now.

(nuts)NEW BUILD AND SOME PICS.

The base Plasma table is constructed of 2X2 heavy wall tubing (that is what hitches are made of). Shown welded with my MIG welder,and painted)

1st rule on this build is that it must be stout,use only materials that I own,(cheap) accuracy to .001 or better, be movable in the shop for storage ,cheap and fast.

A study of the Model Plasma Cutter I own (Miller 2050) shows I can cut up to 7/8 steel ( never tried that ) at approx 10 IMP, down to 1/8 at 180 IPM,(never could do that by hand),and without a quide, I can not cut a good streight line, with a guide, you can see my heart beat ,it is so sensitive. So CNC control is a must if I'm to use the Plasma cutter to its best use.

Pic 1 & 2 show the table welded and complete.

Pic 3 shows a temp mount of the X axis ,disassembled and cleaned, shown is the "belt gripper" and how stout that is, and that is 3 of eight interior ball rollers,really heavy duty . Once assembled with the eight side rollers there is NO side movement or slop.

I was really suprised how stout this assembly is..the inner tract is hardned steel, the bearing/ball rollers can be individually adjusted
( they are piloted with an eccentric stub shaft), and ditto the side rollers.This "robot" was well engineered and quality assembled.

pic 3 shows the inside track. The belt drive is split, ten te two are brought together with an adjustable cover, really neat.

pic 4 shows the side rollers for the X axis..

pic 5 more side rollers

pic 6 Y axis installed to X axis

pic 7 shows the Z axis (air operated + or -) mounted to the Y axis and X Axis.

pic 8 X and Y axis mount

next is the Z axis ( back)

next is the Y axis lazy end track,cut from a piece of 1" 6061.

Next my Miller Spectrum 2050

different view of X-Y axis

Machined plate or drive mock up

large top plate with machined pocket for the servo

another view

mock up x axis ( in the final , I used the same stack ,but moved the X axis To the outide of the table)

different view

X drive axis ( and the Y axis is identical except smaller) squeeze coller)

machined spacer and lower plate

spacer installed

lower plate and bearing installed

Adobe,

Great to have you back.

I am reading with much interest your project descriptions.

Thanks

Paraprop

Adobe,

glad to see you back!

What soft are you going to use?

I'm interested in your z axis, can't see much in the picture. One day, maybe once I've finished my lathe and CNCd my milling machine, I'll make a CNC plasma cutter

Regards, Matthew

Matt: I'm using Desk CNC.I just have had real good results with Desk CNC for the Lathe and Mill I retrofitted.Using Vector 11 CAD / CAM has helped a bunch to...If I had to hand code some of these prototype parts would take weeks instead of hours. I will note that there are a lot fewer mistakes when I CAD the part 1st.There have been some "unusual" events when I hand coded complicated parts.

The Z axis is going to be air operated. The Miller 2050 Plasma Cutter is a "drag type"ie, the torch is actually on the piece to be cut.Between what you can see in the Z axis(more pictures comming tomorrow)will be a block and a plate with ball bearing set screws in it.That locates the torch on the piece to be cut. I'm using an "M" code to raise and lower the Z axis.That triggers a 120 volt air valve to raise and lower.

The pictures here show how the slots were cut on my band saw ( it has an automatic table feed)I guaged the cuts with a piece of 1/8 steel, and a block squared at 3 inches. Pre setting the travel on the table gave me the same depth on all pieces. This was some real crummy looking 1 inch T6 that I cut on both sides to arrive at 3/4inch.

As you can see I mocked up the pieces prior to drill/counter sinking and machining the edges. I did offset the center row of slots so that the slats would fit tight and not move around while loading a heavy sheet.I'm sure I saw that on one of weld tutors assemblies.

I should have more together today, as I drilled /counter sank the Y axis track and cut all of the slats.

The pictures a kind of random, but yousee the progress .

Adobe (old as dirt)

I got a lot of assembly done this morning, to include the Y axis track (free end ) the y axis track wheel and made it adjustable. I was careful to "load" the trackwheel only about .002 or so on the track itself. You can see that I really countersunk the fastners for the Y axis, so after time I can resurface it when it starts showing wear.

You can see that the slats are cut and installed, due to the off center ,center slots it really keeps the sacrifical stock in tight.I did see on E-BOMB some one had designed a little different sacrifical slats and put some small tips on the ends , has any one here tried this ? The slats are cut from 1/8 flat stock that was laying around, had really rusted. I spent one day just grinding rust off, but saved some $$ by doing it that way.( or did I ?.I called and 20 feet of 2" flat, 1/8 thick is $20, that means I would need approx 80 feet ( 5 ft long sections) or $80 plus a 100 mile round trip .So maybe I did save some, and also cleaned out some metal that you know who had threatned to send away any way.

Again, this had to be a cheap build, so I found some DC gear/motor servos for $30 bucks each, and a nice looking complete 25 volt power supply for $29 from Kellor..man I just do not see how they can build these power supplies for that kind of money? The unit is enclosed,looks really complicated but very neatley laid out..

The drive componets : The small XL timing pulley is a 15 tooth, the large one is 60 tooth.(both X & Y) I machined the centers to the shafts I built, & broached for 1/8 keyways. The larger X axis drive shaft is .742 where it connects to the the main roller, then.750 the rest of the way. I machined the top and and bottom plates for matching ball bearings so they are well supported both ends. All of the plates are machined from some real rough looking 6061 T6,even had some extra holes here and there,but did not hurt their function. This is known as having more time than money, but I was able to clean them up to function. ( I just like new, pretty T6 that has not been scratched..) If you look at the pictures a few days ago, and the ones today you can see I turned the X axis around and mounted to the outside of the 2 inch tubing of the table, gave me more y axis, which it really needs .The x axis has a full 4 ft plus of travel, but the Y is only 42 inches, so the extra 2 inches help.This also means that the X axis side rack and wheels will be out of harms way.

The servo-gear motors turn at 4500 rpm, but the gear reducer brings the final shaft speed to 500 rpm.(9:1) The encoders give 900 pulses per final shaft revolution , the timing gearing is 4:1, and one revolutin of the drive shafts I made move the belt one inch.(note, thats just a "Kentucky Windage"measurment ). I will use the dial indicators when it is all hooked up.Desk CNC will see 3600 hundred pulses per inch which should give good reconcilation (my mill has 80,000 pulses per inch, the lathe has 3600 pulses per inch and I get good finish on the lathe.) Right now I can see no backlash,but suspect the gear motor servo will have some backlash after it loosens up. This is a streight gear reduction , not a planatary type, & I have never seen a streight reduction box not have some back lash.

Whats left is the swivel mount for the lap top I'm using,and make the rest of the Z axis and torch mount. Then start wiring it up..to still make it more affordable I'm using the lathe Desk CNC motion control card and the 2 Geckos for the Dir/step and closed loop from the servos. A master control switch will switch the power supplies,the DC power for the servos will come off the same master control, then the servo wiring will be seperate.

Unless I have some big wiring issues this should be cutting in 2 weeks, maybe ( famous last words)

Adobe has been kind enough to help me with a mill project this last year so I have been lucky to see this project from day one. He may not have a lot of money invested in this but the quality matches his lathe and mill, which are both outstanding.

Good job on the documentation and keep up the good work. My money is on it cutting in two weeks.

bbowers

bbowers..Thanks for the kind words,I did enjoy helping with your project..And what a nice project mr bbowers is doing:
He is rerofitting a Wells Index 3 axis CNC Knee Mill..This Mill was made about the same time period as my retrofitted Tree Mill, but I think that Wells Index was way ahead when they built it. Quality and Heavy duty "stout" (plus some one took good care of the Mill) along with a lot of inovations that mr bbowers has buit into the retrofit make this an outstanding piece.

Mrbbowers ,along with being a super electrical tech and licensed electrician ( hey ,he gets to play with 11,000 hp ,fully automated Turbines all day) has taught himself metalworking,woodworking ,fiberglass etc.His "tool Shed" is full of neat woodworking/metalworking tools and his projects show old world craftmanship that we do not see any more.He has promised me that he will document the Wells Index retrofit "soon",so every one can enjoy .

Again Thanks

Adobe (old as dirt)

The last post here is 6 months old... Did Adobe have more health problems?

Yep,long story, short version...had to go in for another back operation,hardware failure..They decided to keep me in post care facility, terrible place..Seems everything is working real good at this time, and have started back in the shop a few hours a day..Thanks very much for your concern.
Finished the CNC Plasma Cutter, works neat. The quality of cut is greatley improved over hand cuts.Holds a 1/64th inch tolerance, even in big circles,guess that is good as it gets..

Thanks
Adobe Machine (old as dirt)

Welcome back.

Hope the maintenance work lasts abit longer this time. :D

Glad to hear your doing better :)

In real life I'm a Paramedic... I see people that are disabled on a daily basis.. I am really proud of you for your attitude and "can do" spirit... Most people just sit around feeling sorry for themselves after a life changing accident. You , Sir, are a wonderful exception.. Good Job :)

Steve

Welcome back Old Dirt !!!!!!!!!!! Geof sent me a pm to give me a heads-up. We're both hangin' in there.

I was quite upset about Dennis (NC Cams) passing, May He Rest in Peace.

I went down on Jan. 2nd. Turned out to be a minor thing, vegus nerve thing.

Well, keep on keepin' on.

Older than older than dirt, Dick Z

You two fellas are young men, and getting younger every year I age!

Make those quacks keep you running smooth. Don't forget to apply the way oil generously too.

Cheers,

BW

BW, My way oil of choice is Pilsner Urquel. However, I was recently testing some 12 yr old, single barrel malt, 2 cask Aberlour Scotch. A little goes a long way, especially at the going price.LOL

Adobe, Keep in touch.

Dick Z

Every one,thanks for the nice replies...Steve Watkins, I will say at times I've not been a "nice patient",and in fact would say that some would judge me a real A-- H---.In six years since the accident,I have had to take the Insurance Company to Court 5 times just to get the care related to the accident.In two instances, my attorney has caught an M.D. ( with lots of degrees ,that sound real impressive) lying in testimoney to the Court in favor of the Insurance Company.This also caused` the Insurance Company's Attorney to have a"melt down" in the Court room,throwing papers,,screaming,directing foul language at me and my attorney,he would not quit,the Judge finally said the hearing was over....My attorney said that in 35 years in practice he had never seen conduct like that from any Lawyer !
I do think that this time the Medicos have it right..I'm comfortable,the pain is less,and besides not having any feeling in my right leg,having reduced motion due to the entire Lumber Spine and one other being fused,I can function better than anytime in the last 6 years.
Richard,nice to hear that your still ticking ! Now for something weird...I got an E Mail from Dennis (or at least his E mail address)on June 16,this year where in he sent (or some-one using his computor) a full G code for a real agressive roller cam. The G code is professional,a lot of work for some one.
Was your incident in Jan.weather related ? E mail me ,and I need your address to return the German-English dictionary you loaned me a long time ago.(using that and the internet I was able to translate for the ATC,which I will build in the future).
Again,thanks to all !

Adobe ( older than dirt,not as old as DZ)