Hey guys,

This request is for my wife. I hope I can drum up alot of help, cause it will make my purchases easier if I can make her happy.

So please help!! *grins*

I realise that this isn't a routing question, but I think the machine would operate very close to the way an engraving/router would.

I don't need to or have anyway to control a z-axis, so I will only being moving x and y. I'll need to sew and generate continous pattern. I have the ability to monitor and control the stitch length. So I only need to control the side to side and back and forth movement.

I plan on mounting a timing belt onto the table and connect that to the carraiges for both of the axis. Is there any concern with slicing a timing belt into a long track and mounting each end? Then I would connect the pull with some retaining idlers to keep it in contact with the belt. Would I increase my wear? I wouldn't think so, but I've never tried to use a drive belt/timing belt.

Now.
I don't have the ability to stop sewing and guarantee that the needle is retracted from the quilt.

So....

What I need to do is beable to create and generate a continous pattern.
I.e. you start sewing on grid 1x1 and then make a bunch of wave patterns til the end of the quilt, then it would turn and draw a bunch of seagulls on the way back. Without ever stopping the line. If the pattern breaks or jumps too far, it would run the risk of pulling the needle while it's still embed in the quilt. Which, best case would break the thread or needle. Worst case it could tear a big hole in some customers quilt.

Now the questions are.

Do you think that mach3 would be handle this. ((I think so, I just specify my x/y, speed, and table diminsions etc...))

What can I use to create the pattern. Would I need to draw it in as a bmp in paint or another graphic program? ((corel draw, photoshop etc))

How do I take that pattern/picture and turn it into a machine path that mach can understand.

If each small pattern is drawn, how can I connect them as a continous pattern.

I.e. I outline a dove, now I want to repeat that dove 15 times.

Are there any other concerns that I should have?

Thanks alot guys.

I hope someone can answer my questions.

Hey guys,

This request is for my wife. I hope I can drum up alot of help, cause it will make my purchases easier if I can make her happy.

So please help!! *grins*

I realise that this isn't a routing question...

...the post is just above...

...Are there any other concerns that I should have?

Thanks alot guys.

I hope someone can answer my questions.

How big a working area?... anything other than small (small enough to fit under a normal sewing machine), you're going to run into obvious problems, namely keeping the machine and needle up top in lock-step with the bobbin threading underneath.

Working area is as big as 14'(feet) by 9" ((Throat of the current machine))

Currently I have it working on a 6'(feet) layout.

The movement and work area shouldn't be a problem.

I'm mostly concerned with the wear and tear on the drive belts.

But more importantly.

How will I go about creating the pictures, tool paths, and machine code to make this thing drive itself.

Thanks for the response.

Just to add, I can set the first couple of stitches manually, then then turn the computer on to start the movement.

It's a snazzy setup, just doesn't work unattended or with the precision that cnc would provide. The setup uses encoders to track the movement speed, which keeps the stitch lengths the same.

Once it's cnc'ed, it doesn't need to fly. Anything more than 10-20ipm would prolly snap the thread or needle. It would have to be tested and tweaked on scrap materials.

If it ran at 5ipm, it would be fine as long as the precision is there. I won't have to make a million passes. Just one really long and pretty one.

*grins*

http://www.legendarylands.com/quilt.jpg

This fairly close to the setup my wife has. Just to let everyone know what we are dealing with. Working envelope shouldn't be a problem.

http://www.legendarylands.com/quilt.jpg

This fairly close to the setup my wife has. Just to let everyone know what we are dealing with. Working envelope shouldn't be a problem.

If your setup is like the above photo, then the rollers would be attached to the X axis motor, and would determine the X position on the material which would be taken off one roller and taken up by the other roller. The reverse would be true when sewing in the opposite direction. So, these two rollers would have to be driven by a single motor. A long timing belt would suffice which was connected to both rollers and the drive motor and an idler pulley.

The Y axis would move the sewing machine side to side on the material being sewn.

The more difficult part would be to sync the needle up/down position with the X and Y drivers and encoders so as to prohibit the movement of the X and Y Axis when the needle is in the down position. This would have to be accomplished without the machine software loosing it's position.

Are you planning on using servos or steppers?

Your patterns would be drawn as lines, and then converted to a POLYLINE in a CAD program and converted to g-code using a freeware program like ACE Converter.

Ignore the rollers.

Each section that is in the throat of the machine is rolled forward and locked. While it might be possible to automate that. It does not move back and forth. There are actually 3 rollers that turn into 1. The top, the batting and the backing. Roll onto the 4th as it is sewn together.

The wife will manually advance that part. So each run will be 6' by 9inchs or whatever the throat is.

While it might be nice to have something that automatically rolls the quilt, that is a little out of the scheme, do to stretching and alignment. It's a little bit hands on.

I think I've decided how to do the movement. Just not sure on the line graphic or polyline to g-code.

Is there a software that will trace bmp/gifs to create the lines/polyline?

How do you have the repeated patterns or scaling?

Thanks


*edit*

I'm looking at using steppers. The needle shouldn't be a problem, the problem comes when it wants to jump from a1 to z9, without sewing between. That's why I said that the pattern needed to be a continous line.

Just to add, I can set the first couple of stitches manually, then then turn the computer on to start the movement.

It's a snazzy setup, just doesn't work unattended or with the precision that cnc would provide. The setup uses encoders to track the movement speed, which keeps the stitch lengths the same.

Once it's cnc'ed, it doesn't need to fly. Anything more than 10-20ipm would prolly snap the thread or needle. It would have to be tested and tweaked on scrap materials.

If it ran at 5ipm, it would be fine as long as the precision is there. I won't have to make a million passes. Just one really long and pretty one.

*grins*

You state that you just started a couple of stiches manually and turned the computer on. You also state that the setup uses encoders to track the movement speed. So what kind of program and interface do you presently use that allows it to run a pre-programmed pattern and control the speed? What kind of motors are on the machine? What kind of interface drives the motors? Is the interface inside the computer, or does it use a cable from the computer to an electronics box? Is the computer a custom unit, or a standard off-the-shelf PC? If so, does it operate in DOS mode or some type of windows environment? What software version does it use?

You will need to give us some additional information in order to help you, the reason being that one can only use stepper motors with Mach 3 software. Also, it will only operate with the WinXP operating system, but there are other freeware systems available that will run on almost any operating system.

As far as how to create the patterns, I think you might be thinking of doing embroidery rather than single line stitching. Single line stitching is not very appealing by itself. Creating an embroidery pattern would be a completely different animal than just sewing a straight stitch pattern, and would probably require some type of custom design software.

As for the speed ..... It would be capable of speeds faster than the sewing machine can sew.

I don't think that timing belt life should even be a consideration, seeing that a regular timing belt is probably good for 80,000 miles on a car. The sewing machine will probably wear out before the belt shows much wear.

Hope this helps.

Ignore the rollers.

Each section that is in the throat of the machine is rolled forward and locked.

The wife will manually advance that part. So each run will be 6' by 9inchs or whatever the throat is.

I think I've decided how to do the movement. Just not sure on the line graphic or polyline to g-code.

Is there a software that will trace bmp/gifs to create the lines/polyline?

How do you have the repeated patterns or scaling?

I'm looking at using steppers. The needle shouldn't be a problem, the problem comes when it wants to jump from a1 to z9, without sewing between. That's why I said that the pattern needed to be a continous line.

If the fabric etc. will be advanced manually, then that creates another problem in that the machine software would loose it's position from home position each time it was advanced manually. The work around would be to have the system go back to the start position each time after it had completed a pattern. More on this below.

Also, from the above description, it is my understanding that the pattern would be sewn only the depth of the throat of the sewing machine, but the entire width of the quilt. Is this correct?

There is software that will convert bitmaps, jpg and other type files to a dxf format which can then be automatically converted to g-code.

With the fabric being advanced manually, you would only need to create a repeating pattern once. The pattern would be as deep as the throat depth, and as wide as the quilt. When the pattern was sewn, the program would end automatically. The fabric would be manually advanced, and the same program would be run again and so forth until the quilt was completed. One could have more than one pattern. Example: Run program 1 pattern -- advance quilt -- Run program 2 pattern -- advance quilt -- Run program 1 -- advance -- Run program 2 and so forth.

Scaling can be accomplished in several art type programs, and also as a dxf file before the g-code is created. The scaling will not be a problem once you get the proper kind of graphics software. You could use Corel Draw, but people have reported problems with the dxf output from this program as it apparently has some problems when outputting all the graphics information. I have not used Photoshop, so I cannot comment on it. Bitmaps can be generated and used, but I don't have any experience with using them or converting them to g-code. There are tons of info on graphic packages and conversion on the site.

Hope this has helped.

I would suggest that the timing belt wraps around the sprocket at least 2-3 teeth.
Jockey wheels could be used to make wrap around which will reverse bend the belt but this shouldn't shorten its life for your purpose.

You state that you just started a couple of stiches manually and turned the computer on. You also state that the setup uses encoders to track the movement speed. So what kind of program and interface do you presently use that allows it to run a pre-programmed pattern and control the speed? What kind of motors are on the machine? What kind of interface drives the motors? Is the interface inside the computer, or does it use a cable from the computer to an electronics box? Is the computer a custom unit, or a standard off-the-shelf PC? If so, does it operate in DOS mode or some type of windows environment? What software version does it use?

You will need to give us some additional information in order to help you, the reason being that one can only use stepper motors with Mach 3 software. Also, it will only operate with the WinXP operating system, but there are other freeware systems available that will run on almost any operating system.

As far as how to create the patterns, I think you might be thinking of doing embroidery rather than single line stitching. Single line stitching is not very appealing by itself. Creating an embroidery pattern would be a completely different animal than just sewing a straight stitch pattern, and would probably require some type of custom design software.

As for the speed ..... It would be capable of speeds faster than the sewing machine can sew.

I don't think that timing belt life should even be a consideration, seeing that a regular timing belt is probably good for 80,000 miles on a car. The sewing machine will probably wear out before the belt shows much wear.

Hope this helps.



I can't do this now, I'm saying that it's what I'd like to do. The current setup has a hardware device that replaces the foot pedal. It varies the voltage that would be applied by the pedal based on the speed that the sewing machine is being moved as it rides in the carraige as reported by 2 little encoders.

I.e. if you move it slow, the needle moves slow. If you move it fast, it speeds up to the maximum of the machine. As it sits still, it might make one stitch per 2.5-3seconds.

So. it would be like turning on the spindle prior to executing the code. Like on a mill. I flip the switch and it might sew 1-2 stitches in the same place. Before I hit the go button.

I own mach 3 currently. So it would be ideal to use that. Additionally, I don't think I need the precision of a servo setup. I think that the 400oz nema23 steppers will be more than enough. As it stands now, you can move the carraige around with your pinkie finger.

I have a couple older machines that are able of running xp or linux. I'll more than likely use xp, for ease of deployment. They are 2.4ghz range.

Wife has embroidery machine, so I'm not mistaken. Although tips on how to digitize with that would be great. It seems hit or miss with the current software packages.

What I want to do is go into photoshop or like program. Create a palette that is 5.75' by 8.5" then layout the pattern with painttool. Or by outlining some graphic.

I.e, a chicken, dove etc...

http://www.legendarylands.com/pattern1.jpg

Once I have created one or more patterns. I'd like to convert them into a tool pathes that would beging at point A then draw with the needle til it gets to point B. I would probably have to manually create a little squiggle/doodle to connect each of the smaller patterns within the Main Pattern 1. If it's not a continous pattern like the one above.

At that time, pattern 2 would be loaded and the fabric would be advanced. Ideally pattern 2's starting point would be very close to pattern 1's ending point. So I would home/zero the machine then load the pattern and hit go. Again, we aren't talking about .001" Accuracy, so the starting/ending point won't have to exact. As as the machine doesn't starting banging into itself. This will just take trial/error.

Thanks

I guess another question would be, how to control the direction and method that the tool path takes to execute the pattern.

I.e. Trying to keep it from retracing as little of the pattern as possible. Each retrace would add additional thread and more chance of error.

And yes, currently, I'm only looking at being able to sewing on the y-axis withing the limits of the throat. I'm not looking to advance the quilt byitself. While that might be an option later on. I think it just complicates the process. As you would need to have a motor on the rails, and one on the motor. As the fabric advances, the sewing machine would need to retract to keep it's working location relative to the working material.

And yes, currently, I'm only looking at being able to sewing on the y-axis withing the limits of the throat.

You would have to sew in both the "X-axis" & "Y-axis" otherwise it would be a straight line in "Y-axis", not to mention a control error when no "X-axis" even exist.

The 2D drawing that you start with in MSPaint etc. is just that, a 2D image (X & Y) so you would still need to move in both "X-axis" & "Y-axis".

I think what you would need is a basic table "X-axis" & "Y-axis" that you could clamp the quilt to. Kinda like a large embroidery machine, only you would be doing the outline of the image instead of filling in the image with differant colors. Once you finish a row in "Y-axis" then you could manually advance the quilt to the next section to be stiched. But you still need 2-axis (1-axis would equal a straight line).

I'm interested in your project, my wife has been wanting a embroidery machine, naturally all I was thinking was, CNC! :)

The thing I don't like (embroidery machines) that is out there for sale, is all the software specific extensions they use for each machine, just to scam you into buying the images they create.

A true cnc, with g-code is cheaper and more practical.

I found this link a while back, It's a bit outdated but still a good referance.

Link:
(1) http://www.webcom.com/sknkwrks/robophot.jpg

(2) http://www.webcom.com/sknkwrks/embroidr.htm

Jerry



.

fyi, per previous posts/pictures.

The quilt sits on a giant table. The finished quilt and presewn material is fed from seperate rollers. The table has a gantry type carraige that rides on top of some rails via v-bearing. The x/y axis movement is already there. I plan on making clamp on pully attachement for the belt/motors to ride on and allow the x/y to bedriven via cnc.

That shouldn't be an issue. I already started rendering the parts to mill out. Like I said, I'm more concerned with trying to create pattern then generate the gcode.

Can anyone walk through creating the g-code for the little flowers I posted above?


*seperate*
The biggest problem with embroidery machines, are that you have different fill patterns to create the picture illusions. I'm not sure how you would accomplish this on a cnc machine. Additionally, you have to be very careful with your stabliser backing/material. Every punch of the needle distorts the material a little bit. You end up with an ugly feather edge, if the tool paths aren't create just right. That's another bit of frustration that my wifey deals with. Makes me appreciate that my aluminum doesn't move. *grins*

So basically, you just need a way to create the g-code, right?I'd forget using a raster program like paint, or Photoshop. You'd have to do a raster to vector conversion, and wouldn't have any control over the direction.I think the best option would be to draw the designs in a CAD program, being careful to draw everything in the order you want it sewn. Depending on the software, you **might** be able to copy and paste to get multiple copies of the design, while preserving the drawn order. Then use a dxf to gcode converter that uses the order drawn to write the code.

Probably way to tedious.

Or, how about drawing each design individually, and converting it into incremental g-code. Put each g-coded design into a Mach3 macro, and write your g-code to move to position, and call the macro for the required design. Set up each macro to start from the same origin point (where the code moves you to).

Perhaps you can convert the output from software like this to g-code somehow? Can you do any software programming? http://www.embroideryoffice.com/art-c45.htm

The pattern will be sewn line by line in the exact order that it was created, so one could not jump around when creating the pattern.

Something created by a graphic works the same way, so it would be impossible to know how much it would jump around when sewing, especially if it is a pattern that is downloaded from somewhere.

I have seen programs advertised on the web that allows one to pick the order of steps from start to finish when milling out parts. I never looked at any of the software though, so I can't give you any other info on this other than it exists. SheetCam will allow you to select the order in which routing is done from a dxf file.

As far as having the rolls powered and moving the material.
It simplifies the operation from a programming standpoint. Powered rolls would make it a CNC sewing machine and would work identical to a CNC router without the Z axis. It could also allow one to have stand alone operation. One could make a pattern of a line starting at one corner, sews around the perimeter of the quilt on 3 sides, and as it comes back near the starting point it could be offset an inch or so, and could continue the sewing as another square. This would give you a pattern that looks like a square within a square, but in reality is not, but is ONE long line of stitches going from the outside of the quilt to the inside where the program would stop. Also, powered rolls would allow the whole quilt to be sewn with an unlimited number of patterns. They could be repeating, or every one could be different.

Good luck with your machine.

G-code creation = yes.

Ideally, with as little human intervention as possible.

I can create the graphics in a vector based program if I need to. Illustrator etc... I'm hoping that this will become a little home business for my wife to do.

If it's too tedious, it won't be worth the time. Which is what we found out on attempting to digitize some graphics for embroidery. Albeit, we were probably doing it wrong.

Anyway, back to the subject.

I would imagine that there will be alot of little sets of code that will be used randomly. Ie, say that the continous patter creates a little 4x4 block of emptiness while it goes on it's merry way. At the end of the run. She'd move the machine back to that location, zero out and load the snowflake pattern. ((whatever it might be))

That pattern would play within that 4x4 square.

The problem I have with cad programs, is that they are not very forgiving or intuitive. At least for me. As far as drawing organic type shapes.

I love cad for drawings that have specific angles and distances. Not so much for drawing a snowflake or a spider web.

*edit*

As I stated before. The powered rollers would be ideal. The problem comes in with how the quilt is put together on the machine. There are three rollers that feed into a single roller that the finish quilt lives on. So I wouldn't be able to roll the backing back up persay. Now with some creativilty, and tool paths. I'm fairly sure that you come complete one pass, then advance the quilt and retract the machine at the same time.

**which would require another axis??**

But for the first adventure into this. I don't want to try and complicate things too much. I think it would be alot easier for her to zero out, or retract the needle and home the machine. Instead of trying to get everything sync'd up.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Perhaps you can convert the output from software like this to g-code somehow? Can you do any software programming? http://www.embroideryoffice.com/art-c45.htm


The output from this software is very much like g-code. And it might be very possible to do. However, my experience with digitizing software, is that it does what it likes how it likes to do it.

By that I mean, it might draw the leg in this format and the arm in this. With out any regard to the order that you need to sew them into.

I'll need to look into just being able to use the "outline" part of the software. As I don't need all the fill/highlight stitches.

As for the programming, I'm fairly good with scripting. And I have several friends that are programmers for a daily job.

I actually planned on making a script that would wiggle around like a worm on a predetermine criteria. I.e. Connect the dots, but don't get to close to this dot and don't more farther than this from the previous dot.

Then I could create truely random fill patterns for steepling the quilt. But that's down the road. I'd have to look into the logic more.

Sheetcam has been mentioned, it would allow you to set start and end point while treating a petal as one cut object for example. With some forethought in stitch sequence and how you handle z axis I think you could make it work.
Most 2D drawing programs that save as dxf will work. I look at this as sort of like a plasma machine setup.

EDIT: pardon me :)
I just scheme tru the thread and didn't notice the link.

slp_prlzys,

Same thing in post #13 :)

This program written by Switcher maybe of some use.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19294&highlight=SketchCode

.

This program written by Switcher maybe of some use.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showt...ight=SketchCode

Kiwi,

You just might be on to something.

The program (SketchCode) is still very rough, however, I took a sample of the image here that "Deviant" posted, did a rough sketch in "SketchCode" copy/pasted the results into the latest version of "NcPlot" (VERY COOL Program! :) ) a screenshot is attached. It's difficult to trace an image with a mouse (need to have pen/tablet)!

I could always remove the "Z-axis" If needed. It's been pointed out that in most programs you can not control a graphics path, well with "Sketchcode" you can control the path all you want, in fact I could make the attached screenshot image start in over a 100 different places If I wanted to, I could move around and draw each individual leaf in the order that I want them sewn. In my latest version of "SketchCode" (not posted on the Zone yet) you can open a background image, and trace it, creating the g-code.

The main thing not sorted out yet with "SketchCode" is the Scale of the image/code. If only I had 48 hour days. :)

Jerry


.

.


Deviant,

I attached the g-code, I created with "SketchCode". Download, and open it into the latest version of "NcPlot", then run it thru the animation mode (That is so cool)!

Scott, at NcPlot has done a tremendous amount of work on his program.

You can also convert to DXF while in "NcPlot"

Jerry







.

That's pretty cool switcher.

I like it.

I wonder if a walcomm pad would make enough difference on the tracing?

Definately has potential.

Thanks

Oh, silly question. Why is it upside down?

Just curious.

Oh, silly question. Why is it upside down?

Just curious.


Deviant,

If your referring to the "Flower.txt" in post #25, that was my fault. For some reason in VB.NET it swaps the "X & Y axis". I've got about 10 different versions of "SketchCode" and I always start with my 1st version, which I forgot to fix. :)

Jerry

.

I wonder if a walcomm pad would make enough difference on the tracing?

Thanks

Drawing with a tablet vs a mouse is like night and day.

Drawing with a tablet vs a mouse is like night and day.




Gerry,

I bet it is, I keep saying I'll get a tablet. One of these days. :)


Jerry

Is there anything mystical to be aware of when picking out a tablet.

I.e. should I get a minimal size.

Does it work in the place of my mouse cursor? How does it work when I need to more room?

Thanks

My tablet (wacom) has 2 modes.

In one mode the tablet represents the size of the screen. 1:1 ratio. You don't run out of space. This is absolute mode.

In the other mode, motion matters -- kinda' like your existing mouse.

-- Chuck Knight

Can a tablet/pen be used to trace an image that is on a piece of printer paper? Will the pen work thru the paper?



Jerry





.

I have a cheap "Genius" tablet, and that works though a 1/4" thick paper back !

John

I have a cheap "Genius" tablet, and that works though a 1/4" thick paper back !

John

Thanks for the info. :)

Jerry

hi maybe this will help

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:h4A1VG2MIeUJ:www.webcom.com/sknkwrks/embroidr.htm+%22After+seeing+some+computerized+home+embroidering/sewing+machines+in+operation%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2