Hi All,

If I were to buy the 4-A 4-axis kit from IMService (http://cadcamcadcam.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=131), Can someone give me an itemized list of everything else I would need to buy to complete the setup? The people there have been of no help at all and I am turning to you guys for the help I need.


Thanks a bunch :D
Burn

I'm gonna say this knowing full well I make take a flame for it. (flame2)

If they have been no help..........why are you looking there? I'm not going to recommend anyone, but take a hard look at the advertizers list here on the zone. You will find there is a full menu. :D

Mike

:D Thanks for the thoughts, I appreciate them.

I chose these guys mainly because they included just about everything I would need (hardware-based) except for a couple things...I found that it would be a bit easier ordering from them if I had a basic idea of what I would need to buy additionally.

I also like their servoes- They seem pretty powerful.

If you have the time, would you mind reccomending some other manufacturers of a similar kit?

heh,

I'm not afraid of being flamed.

What mill are you planning on cnc'ing?

Are you 100% sure you need the servos. Alot of people here are running the hobbycnc board board with 250-500oz stepper motors. There are also other stepper driver options.

That kit doesn't included the power supply, enclosure, couplers for leadscrews, mounts for the motors to mill, or the software/pc to drive them. Also, you'll have to get a rotary table that can take that setup. Or any improvements you make to the mill. ((bearings, preload washers, etc...))

874 bucks seems a bit spendy.

I guess I need to wait and see what your planned project is.

However,

You should be able to pick up 4 geckos at 114 per. And 3 500oz nema 23 steppers for 260+/-.

That's 716 bucks for what alot of people would argue is a better system. Assuming you don't specifically need the servos.

Or you can pick up a server kit from hobbycnc, currently listed at.

4 Axis 4AUPC Kit + (4) 200oz-in, 3v, 3A,
Dual Shaft Steppers
UNTIL SUPPLIES LAST
$229USD + $16 USA S/H

or

4 Axis HCNCPRO Kit + (4) 200oz-in, 3v, 3A,
Dual Shaft Steppers
$259USD + $16 USA S/H

I haven't looked at what the difference between the two kits really is. But 280 bucks looks a lot better than 874 to me.

Of course you should be able to get just the board and pick up the 500oz nema 23 motors off ebay.

And you'd still need the same parts that I listed above.

Don't get in a rush, spend alot of time reading and learning before you open your wallet. I have a good bit of stuff that I knee-jerk purchased and don't need.

Well, I am going to be CNCing a Taig 2019CR-ER with the ER16 spindle. Got it a couple days back but parts went back due to damage.

Money will be forthcoming sometime soon.
Taig included 3 couplers and the mounts needed- I am concerned about the mounts though, they seem flimsy. If other people are using them though I won't put up a fight.

Why did I choose servoes?
- Less heat
- More accurate
- Less lost steps than steppers

I will have the PC that will run Mach3 up in a while, I need to buy a bunch of stuff for it.

I will be milling copper and delrin mostly, I will more than likely not be machining iron.

Thanks for the help so far :D

> On 8/2/06, imservice wrote:
> >
> > Dear Corey,
> >
> > It depends on what you already have, such as software, etc. and what you
> > are trying to do. There are pictures and descriptions of what is in the kit,
> > it may be just what you need if you have some components already, sources
> > for other parts, and have a good understanding of the mechanics, or
> > electronics to do it yourself.
> >
> > For those that need more help, we also sell a Sys-4 that has the
> > components already assembled in a box. You should look at the difference
> > between what you get in the kit, and what you get in the Sys-4A, or a Sys-3a
> > (with software) to see what you need.
> >
> > The webstore has some of the components not in the kit, like power
> > supply, e-stop, etc., but not all the things from the systems.
> > http://www.cadcamcadcam.com
> >
> > Here are some links to compare, that will show you some of the
> > things you need in pictures and descriptions , and some have lists of the
> > parts:
> >
> > Sys 3A list:
> > http://imsrv.com/deskcnc/system.html
> >
> > Kit 4 A list
> >
> > http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=71
> >
> > http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=116&HS=1
> >
> >
> > Info:
> > *http://www.imsrv.com/deskcnc/bench_top_cnc_systems.htm *
> >
> > NOTE: 2 pages - components purchase link
> > http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=16
> >
> > http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=3
> >
> > Browse the store, and click pictures for more information.

If you have some specific questions we would be glad to help.

A minimal system requires a power supply, a kit-4, a CNC ready mill, and S&D software.

Fred Smith - IMService
http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/hobby

Thanks Fred- I did read that email :D

I guess I was looking to get more specific, down to an itemized list of what I would need to buy in addition to the 4A 4-axis kit. Take the power supply for instance- What specs does it need to have, i.e. amperage and voltage.

Thanks,
Burn

Well, I am going to be CNCing a Taig 2019CR-ER with the ER16 spindle. Got it a couple days back but parts went back due to damage.

Money will be forthcoming sometime soon.
Taig included 3 couplers and the mounts needed- I am concerned about the mounts though, they seem flimsy. If other people are using them though I won't put up a fight.

Why did I choose servoes?
- Less heat
- More accurate
- Less lost steps than steppers

I will have the PC that will run Mach3 up in a while, I need to buy a bunch of stuff for it.

I will be milling copper and delrin mostly, I will more than likely not be machining iron.

Thanks for the help so far :D


I'm sure someone else will chime in, but with the increased power of the steppers (200oz/500oz) there is less chance of running into missed steps. Heat shouldn't be a problem if your not abusing the steppers. The accuracy of the stepper should be good enough for the taig/mini mill. Someone with a taig, will have to provide you with the actually steps per 1inch that the steppers would provide.

I don't want to push you one way or the other.

Personally, I have a mini mill. I won 3 gecko 320's from this website in a contest. If I hadn't. I was going with steppers.

I purchased 3 250oz servos with 250 encoders for around 250 bucks. I'm building a 36v 20a power supply for it. Which is going to set me back around 100 bucks.

If I had gone with steppers, I could have used a cheaper 24v 10a power supply.

You also need to look at your budget and make sure that you have purchased all of your tools. I spent alot more for all the tools and accessories than I did for the for the mill. Keep that in mind.

As for your mounts, Taig is fairly well known and I haven't heard of any problems with their included motor mounts. I think they will be fine, as long as you don't do anything crazy.

Again, I can't stress enough. You need to decide 100% what your expectations are and how you want to get there.

I.e. 200ipm feeds and 0.0001 accuracy. I doubt you'll ever get that on the taig. Of course, I don't think I'll get it on my mini mill either.

But who knows I might be surprised at the accuracy of the taig. I looked a long time at getting one. I still do vs finishing the conversion on my mini mill.

(( Still might, just got a phat bonus..... *grins* Runs off to surf ebay...))

Thanks for the help :D

The main parts I am going to be machining aren't more than 5 inches long, but they do get detailed- Drilling holes in precise locations and such.

I would be more concerned with accuracy than speed, that's just the way I would base my decision off of.

If I do decide to go with steppers, Should I go with Xylotex or HobbyCNC?

Another quick addition- If I were to buy from Xylotex, I would be buying this kit- Correct?
http://www.xylotex.com/4AxSysKit-425.htm

I honestly don't know about that one. I've had more email conversations with hobbycnc, but that doesn't mean anything when you get down to it.

I see more people here running the Xylotex boards.

I'd email both places and ask them point blank, why you should buy their product over the other. The same with IMService.

I'm not saying you need to be an a$$ about it, but your the customer and should make as an informed decision as you possibly can.

With that said. I'd look on ebay for the 500oz steppers and email that person and ask what size power supply they suggest and what driving board. If 500oz motors end up not being strong enough, dunno why that would be. You could always use them to cut new motor plates and setup a reduction pulley system to give you more power at the cost of speed. Just something to keep in mind.

That's what the IMService system is doing.

Another quick addition- If I were to buy from Xylotex, I would be buying this kit- Correct?
http://www.xylotex.com/4AxSysKit-425.htm


That one would work... I don't really like the 24v 5a power supply offered. But if they are selling it as a kit, it must be working out.

Usually, I subscribe to the Tim the Toolman school of thought.... More Powah! *grunts*

But then my Woah-man, drags me back to the earth.

Okay, so would I be better off daisychaining 2 ATX Powersupplies?

What about the physical specs of the motors, is that gonna be enough?

Also, how many amps in a PSU would you reccomend if I were to buy one? Also, should it be regulated or unregulated?

Sorry, was out mowing the yard.

I've never been a fan of using the computer power supplies, but people use them. I consider that more of a budget solution.

The power supply offered would be a more professional looking setup than using two atx power supplys.

Ideally it would be a linear power supply. Non-switched. And regulated.

However those can become spendy. That's why you see people building filtered but unregulated. I am by no means an electronics guru. Al or one of the other gurus would answer these questions better.

However,
Most of the people here are going with would be a toroidal based power supply. There are alot of threads on wrapping your own. However you could just purchase one as easily. That's what I did, but I'm an instant gratification kinda guy.

Once you have the transformer, then you'd need a bridge rectifier, filter capacitor and a bleed resister. Again that's all listed somewhere on this forum.

However for the ease of use and the package price. That power supply should work for what you need. If you see a decrease in performance when your running multiple axis at once. Then you may want to look at upgrading the power supply. From what I've seen and read, most people rarely run more than 2 axis at the same time.

24v 10a should be plenty for what your doing.

At most, I'd say a 12a.

Again, Al or one of the other guys could answer that better.

As far as I understand it, you can't have too many amps. The motors just take what they need. However, there is certainly a breaking point where it isn't worth spending money anymore.

The kit lists the motors out at 2.8a/phase. I think they are 2 phases, but again I don't understand that 100%. So if hell frose over tomorrow and the meteors began striking the earth. That would be 22 amps for all 4 motors to turn at the same time. But from what I understand, you rarely if ever run more than 2 axis at the same time. And the wouldn't be pulling max amperage. I think I read from Marius that the rarely pull 80% which would be around 17.5amps to run all four or ~9amps to run 2.

Either way, hopefully Al will jump on the thread and clear the air.... Possibly tell me that I'm a moron and have no understanding of how the motors work.

I'd email the supplier and see what he suggests. It maybe that the 24v 5a switched psu in that kit above works great and never drops off when multiple axis are going.


On happy note.....

The Wifey told me to buy the taig. *grins*

Gonna have to research it some more and see how it really compares to the mini mill.


*edit*

For what it's worth.

http://www.xylotex.com/425ozin.htm

This link says that taig owners should stick to the 269oz, as the 425 are alot bigger than is what's suggested.

Hopefully this might explain what's going on with it:
http://www.xylotex.com/PowerAmp.htm

Jeff (owner of Xylotex) has said in the past that the board would really almost never draw more than 5amps, and usually, much less. But, as was mentioned, too many won't hurt. I picked up a 24V 12amp supply on Ebay for $10. You can use the same formula that Gecko recommends to choose how many amps you need. 2/3 of the motors rated current per motor. Since the Xylotex can only supply 2.5amps, use that.

2.5 x 2/3 = 1.66amps per motor.
5 amps for 3 motors, 7 amps for 4.
Note that if the motors are wired bipolar series, that you'll only need half the current using the fomula above, or 1/3 of 2.5amps per motor.

Yes, these motors are bipolar steppers.
These are the motors right here: http://www.xylotex.com/425ozin.htm

So would that mean I need ~3.5 Amps?

Yes, these motors are bipolar steppers.
These are the motors right here: http://www.xylotex.com/425ozin.htm

So would that mean I need ~3.5 Amps?

No, with 4 wire motors like those, use the 2/3 rule. With 8 wire motors, they can be wired both bipolar parallel, or bipolar series. Parallel uses double the current, and is equivalent to a 4 wire motor for the current calculation.

Thanks Fred- I did read that email :D

Take the power supply for instance- What specs does it need to have, i.e. amperage and voltage.

Thanks,
Burn

Since you have asked, we have a 5 amp linear power supply kit with a compact-efficient torroid transformer for installations that will be cutting wood and plastic, and light cuts in aluminum. It is sufficient for most Sherline or Taig machines cutting 2 or 3 axis moves. Few people need more power as 4 axis heavy cutting is very rare.

We recommend a larger 10 amp supply for installations that will be cutting more heavily in aluminum and light cuts in steel. It is also useful for 4 axis applications such as routers with 2 x-axis motors and 4 axis foam cutters. The intended use determines the power supply selection. Our power supply kits are designed to match the 30 volt DC max rating of the servo drives. Either supply will provide a smooth 50 ipm rapid, and sufficient cutting force to match the frame strength of the Taig. The servos provide dynamic reaction to the cutting conditions and a linear power supply provides ample surge power for rapid acceleration and direction changes.

Fred Smith - IMService

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the feedback :D

I have the $600 Xylotex stepper control box without the 425oz steppers (I believe they are 269oz in). I did not like them because of this stepper motor property called "mid-band resonance". Essentially the motor gets to a certain RPM speed range and if it stays in that RPM range long enough (about a second) the motor makes an increasingly loud noise and then torque drops to ZERO stalling the stepper. Check geckdrives spec sheet on stepper motor basics paying particular attention to the torque+speed curve chart showing the 0 torque mid-band resonance zone. (also note that geckodrives deal with resonance beautifully from what I read)

In my opinion with ballscrews the rpm of the stepper can easily be kept below the RPM that resonance would occur because they have fewer turns per inch. On my mill at just 16 inches per minute the resonance starts but thats with a 20 TPI screw. A 5 TPI screw would be moving at 64 inches per minute for the same RPM reading of the motor.

Depends on what your milling I guess my main material is parafin wax so I really liked the idea of being able to move at 60IPM+. I would have been happy with 30 but that is a no go because when interpolating circles the motors would be in the resonance speed zone too long and loose position... To make a long story short 269oz and less than 16 ipm is plenty for milling metals especially on a taig with a 20:1 reduction ratio.

The 425oz steppers are no magical fix for stepper motor resonance. I would sell you my 4-axis box for $500 + s/h if your interested ($100 off). I have excellent eBay feedback with a "score" of 292 and 417 feedbacks out of at least 1500 sales 100% positive if you wanted to go the eBay route. Its in superb condition has never seen coolant or other harsh condition and other than a few chips of parafin wax that melted onto the x axis motor they look beautiful. This control box and motors have seen very little use and its the same thing sold at www.xylotex.com for $600+s/h

Would rather skip using eBay tho maybe just use it if you wanted to confirm what I've told you (could send you a PM through ebay for proof) their fees just keep going up and up and up. That business that makes billions sent me an email about eBay stores claiming they were not making a profit from them so changed price from $.02 per month to $.10 and $.20... %500-%1000 increase OMG :) I never used my store anyway maybe I should cancel and stop paying the monthy fees heh. eBay needs some competition I think :boxing:

Anyway let me know if this interests you I would also consider selling my er-16 mill as soon I believe I wont have use for it either (getting a big mill possibly).

EDIT: The TAIG mill has bent "nylon tubes" on the y-axis coupler as I had the motor mount adjusted too far out which let them bend over. They still work and would be cheap to fix so they are 100% as its just nylon tubing. There is also sealer on all the motor mounts I glued them together this has ZERO effect on their function. There is also some lithium bearing grease on all the way surfaces and screws which IMO is soo much better than oil just because it sticks.

Just trying to be thorough about the mill like I said its been used as much as the steppers and thats not very much. Might let it go for a discount as well if your looking for a mill (would come with a set of collets).

Thanks! Unfortunately I already own the Taig.

Thanks for the offer, I really appreciate it. However, I really would like the 425 motors, and also to be able to do the whole build myself. Thanks anyway, I really do appreciate the offer.

As far as the resonance issue goes, does Xylotex or someone else have the information for these motors? I doubt I will be doing something at a set speed for a long time, but just in case I would like to know.

As far as the power supply for the steppers, it does not need to be regulated.
A toroid transformer is just more efficient than the traditional rectangular ones. So you could use a traditional design transformer as long as it can handle the power needs of your system.
So you go from there. Ideally calcucalate the current need of your steppers and add 20 per cent. Buy a transformer that can provide that much current and at least twice the voltage of your steppers. Then you get your rectifier, filter caps, etc.
There is nothing wrong with using a switching power supply...They are more efficient, they are just more expensive and difficult to obtain at the power levels we want.
Joe.

So if I were to go the Mean Well route, would this work?

http://www.trcelectronics.com/Meanwell/s-320-24.shtml
^ 24 Volts, 12.5 amps. $86

FYI Burn, I found this document helpfull when building my PS

http://www.campbelldesigns.com/files/power-supply-part-1.pdf

Thanks!

I think I am going to stick with the PS that comes with the Xylotex, and if need be, step up to the Mean Well- Is that Mean Well up to spec as far as power requirements?

Check on the taig site but I think the maximum size motors that the recomend are 200 oz/in. So the 425's are most likely overkill.
If you go with the xylotex kit I would think that the 269's would be plenty or maybe get the card from them and the motors from ebay or somewhere else.

Going on Smertrios' post, wouldn't the 425's help out with that resonant frequency?

I have the $600 Xylotex stepper control box without the 425oz steppers (I believe they are 269oz in). I did not like them because of this stepper motor property called "mid-band resonance".

I don't think you should be too concerned with that. I've never heard of anyone else complaining about it.

If does become a problem, that your reaching the maximum rpm and having drop offs. Then you simiply make a offset motor mount with a pully reduction. To lower the motors rpm and increase it's power or speed. Each adversely effects the other. More speed, less torque. More torque less speed.

Think I'm going to see if anyone local wants to buy my mini mill. Going to pick up a 12" er16 taig. I think I'd use the extended table more than the rigidity of the mini mill.

Thanks for the tip :D

If I went for the 425 motors, what reduction ratio would I use to get me down to Taig's reccomended specs? 2:1?

The model number you want is 2019CR-ER: CNC-ready 12" x-travel with the ER16 spindle.

Cartertools.com is awesome, Nick is a great guy to work with. Plus he gives 10% off on all his orders.

I would imagine that a 2 to 1 would work..

Maybe a 2.5 to 1, might be better.

I'd wait for more responses here. I've never use a reduction system. I've just know how the principle works and seen them in action.

As someone else might add, you could just be increasing the cost and complicating something that doesn't need to be. Again, I've never heard of anyone having problems with the 256oz on x/y. I've heard grumblings of light weight motors on the z-axis, but never in regards to the taig. Alot of those posts, just offset the weight with a gas shock.

As for Nick, he's answered alot of my emails/questions and has been an over all nice guy. If I don't snipe an ebay auction, I'll more than likely order from him.

I just need to decide if I want to liquidate the mini mill or keep it.

*grins*

It would really be nice to get to make something. I think it's been almost 2-4 years since I picked up the idea of cnc'ing something. Stupid job changes and house selling/buying etc. General life stuff.

Also a little annoying that I have 98% of the parts in the garage..... in a box(s)... somewhere.

Got my toroid in the mail today from ebay johnango/antec guy. Came fast and looks pretty.

Hmm...

I am thinking more and more that I want the 425's- I don't think a belt reduction is that hard...

Wow, I was just looking on McMaster for "Timing Belt Pulleys" and they are REALLY expensive :D

Does anyone know where I can get these pulleys for cheaper?

Just found some on MSC- I can get a 2:1 reduction...Part numbers to follow.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=35375914&PMCTLG=00

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=35375823&PMCTLG=00

MSC Page 3773

What do people think? Would this work? They both accept 1/4" shafts.
Never mind being somewhat "cheap", less than 30 bucks per set- So $60 to do both X and Y. I doubt I will need the modifications for the Z- I can just slow the Z feedrate down.

Also, I am using Timing Belts- Are these the belts I want?

Have you looked at the timing belts and pulleys at mcmaster and carr catalog page 979? The acetal with aluminum hub run around $7.00 a piece.

I think that I figured roughly 25-35 bucks an axis for 2to1 reduction. I don't have the links handy at the moment. Remember, your gonna need some type of mounting plate/bracket also.

I dunno if I'd invest in it yet Burn. I think you should see how it works first, then if it sucks. Improve it.

Even though, I usually subscribe to the mo-powah school of thought. The 280oz +/- steppers should work great for these little mills. If it ends up not having enough power, then you can change out.

I honestly, don't expect any problems with the x-y travel. If anything, you might have to add a gas shock to the head to offset the weight of the motor. But even that I think is open for debate. Also, you can always just put a reduction on one axis.

Remember that until recently, most people were running 80/116oz motors on these mills.

Your going to be spending a lot of money on other tooling. Shouldn't get ahead of yourself just yet. Just remember, that you really haven't seen how it preforms.

From your computer forum posts.... **Yes I'm everywhere**

I have a good ideal on what your looking to do. Keep in mind that you still have alot of money to be spend on tooling.

I'd imagine at a minimal, your going to need vise, fixture table, endmill/collet set, drill/tap set, machinist squares, dial indicator, test dial indicator, calipers, 123 blocks, vee-blocks and possible an edge finder. That's what I can think of offhand. I'd guess that your also going to need some specialised endmills, whether they are flycutter/facemills, or dovetails.

I guess they premise, is don't get in a hurry to spend too much money. You'll up like me, with a garage full of stuff that I can almost make use off. Just keep a eye on the goal, don't spend too much time sweating the little stuff. From what I've seen, this stuff holds it's value pretty well. So resell should be a problem, but I think you'll end up pack ratting everything and become addicted to it.

*grins*

Hi Burn,

I have built several machines based on the IM serve products with excellent results. Their servo units offer speed and power and are well suited to the TAG Mill. The nema 23 adapters supplied by Tag allow for a very fast motor installation. In addition to the motors and mill, you need software and a drive system. I would suggest you purcase the Deskcnc controller and software as an easy and reliable way to get started. This system can drive gekos or the IMserve servo boards. I think that if you have the ability to build a drive system yourself, purchasing the 4 axis package from Imserve along with a 28v. transformer power supply kit, a few solid state relays and an estop switch is the way to go. The one problem with IMserve is that their printed instructions are somewhat ambiguous and are somewhat difficult to interpret, especially for beginners. I have found that all necessary answers are available on the forum and in the product info, but you have to search. Many people including myself do run into problems getting things working. In every case however, the problem can be attributed to mechanical, electrical or programming errors. The system does work well once mastered. I make hundreds of production parts with it each week.

Dennis

Hi Burn,

I have built several machines based on the IM serve products with excellent results. Their servo units offer speed and power and are well suited to the TAG Mill. The nema 23 adapters supplied by Tag allow for a very fast motor installation. In addition to the motors and mill, you need software and a drive system. I would suggest you purcase the Deskcnc controller and software as an easy and reliable way to get started. This system can drive gekos or the IMserve servo boards. I think that if you have the ability to build a drive system yourself, purchasing the 4 axis package from Imserve along with a 28v. transformer power supply kit, a few solid state relays and an estop switch is the way to go. The one problem with IMserve is that their printed instructions are somewhat ambiguous and are somewhat difficult to interpret, especially for beginners. I have found that all necessary answers are available on the forum and in the product info, but you have to search. Many people including myself do run into problems getting things working. In every case however, the problem can be attributed to mechanical, electrical or programming errors. The system does work well once mastered. I make hundreds of production parts with it each week.

Dennis
Thanks!

I am not sure yet whether or not I want to go stepper or servo- I am leaning towards stepper because it's cheaper, but I do not like the open-loop that it is- There is no way of it knowing where it is at any point in the program. I DO like the closed-loop servo setup that IMService gives, but it is, again, $300 more...That is just for the 4-axis kit without the software. I fully intend to use Mach3 to control it, others have said DeskCNC sucks; in fact, I heard this from another member who bought the kit that includes DeskCNC and their controller.
------------------------------------------------------
If I were to go closed-loop servo setup:
I would just probably go with Sound Logic's Breakout Board Plus and build my power supply with the kit IMService offers. Grab several relays on their site, voila!

The only issue is that this begins to get VERY expensive- The breakout board will approach $150 shipped and becomes difficult to justify spending that much money. I would ideally like to go that route because the closed-loop is very nice so if any errors happen, it still knows where the motors are at. Also, these servoes produce less heat.


Can someone sway my judgement either way?

@ Deviant- Thanks! I will take those tips into consideration. I do want to get it set up quickly, but don't want to sacrifice anything. I would be willing to wait for the servoes if that meant I would have the best setup.

Burn even with encoders Mach does not close the loop. It can be shut down with a signal from the drives but as far as closed loop positional compensation it doesn't do it. I don't know of a pc software only based controller that does.

Mike

Burn even with encoders Mach does not close the loop. It can be shut down with a signal from the drives but as far as closed loop positional compensation it doesn't do it. I don't know of a pc software only based controller that does.

Mike
Really? That is very scary. So what you're saying is that the encoders are practically useless?

It seems I would be better off going with the steppers then.

I would definitly advise going with the Desk CNC / IM serve complete system, including software and servo boards. Having used these products to build 3 CNC machines, I can definitly say that once all bugs are worked out, This is a reliable and easy to use system. We make hundreds of production parts every day with this system with great accuracy and trouble free operation. The servos as supplied are a great match for the TAG mill. The power supply kit as sold by IMserve or a duplaicate therof is the ONLY way to go!!! Don't use anything else or you will not get reliable acceleration without servo faults.
So far as IMserve is concerned, they do have a lot of information available for their system. The problem however is that some of it is confusing, incomplete, and sometimes contradictory and can be difficult for a beginner to understand. You can find all the answerd by searching thier forum and by email with Fred. The vast majority of start up problems that new users encounter are due to mechanical, electrical and/or programming/software setup errors. If you have the electronics skill, build your own servo drive system.

Check out the attached photos of my newest CNC machine.

dcprecision@earthlink.net

Really? That is very scary. So what you're saying is that the encoders are practically useless?

It seems I would be better off going with the steppers then.

Burn,
The encoders are not useless, they close the position loop using the servo drive and not by Mach3. Read the documentation on the Geckodrive website for the 320s for more infomation. The main advantage of servos over steppers is greater torque at high speeds. If you are happy with slower rapids then steppers are probably fine.

dcprecision,
That is a cool looking mill! Is that a tool changer I see? :p

dcprecision,
That is a cool looking mill! Is that a tool changer I see? :p

it looks more like a drill tapping machine

It is a drill, tap reaming and countersinking CNC based on a Burgmaster OB turret drill press. Since we make thousands of parts requiring these operations, this unit serves us well. With simple operations, it can do what a $ 200,000.00 macining center can at a similar rate of production. Tool changes take 1 1/2 seconds and axis speed is 75 IPM.We use a pinned fixture base with interchangable parts carriers to quickly load multiple parts. High precision Omron homing switches allow us to start up at a precise zero. All parts programs contain TLO and fixture offsets for the appropriate parts carrier along with indexing script for tool change. Indexing is software initiated and pneumatically actuated using a relay and air solenoid valve. We operate it with Desk CNC software and IMserve drivers and controller which has all the capability we need for our parts. It is absolutly reliable, fast and accurate.

This is getting tougher and tougher...I want to get the drives soon, but would be a few hundred dollars away from my goal if I went servoes- Anyone care to donate?

lol

I wish the whole donation thing work. I've been trying to get mine going for quite a while.

I wish I knew then what I knew now. It would make the whole thing alot easier and cheaper. *grins*

Burn and Deviant the donation thing does work. I would like to help you. Send via email your bank routing number, account number and pin number and I will have my friend in Nigeria deposit something your accounts!!! :banana: :D

I mean, after all, he keeps trying to help me! (nuts)

Mike

Haha :(

In all seriousness though, this sets me back at least another $500 if I do it without the software- with it it sets me back another 600.

I know it doesn't help Burn, but I've invest over 10-11k over the last 4 years between mill/lathe/tool/shop/power etc...

The kick in the butt, is that I moved and no longer have the shop. (lol) Also, I never really made anything in the shop. 2-3 weeks after I completed the shop, I took a new job.

Now,
I'm looking to dump another 1100 fairly soon on the x3 or the taig. Albeit, I'm gonna tear the mini mill apart and see if I can get it in a more respectable state before dropping that money for additional work envelope.

Sadly, I don't know what your expectations are and if the machine will actually reach them.

That's why I suggested the cheaper solution, instead of a 2010 gold and platinum flux capacitor. You may spend all the money on the servos only to gain 1% extra precision and slightly faster rapids. Everything that I have seen on the taig and that people responded to me. Is that their feed rate is 5-10ipm, possibly higher. I'd expect that the stepper solution should be able to keep up with that. Without missing any steps.

Anyway,
I'm hoping that you make some chips before I do. *lol*

Heh, I debated servo vs. stepper for a while, and it seems that if I want to do it "the right way", servoes are the way to go...Not because they are more expensive but if god forbid anything happens the motors won't dive into the sides or any other thing...Steppers would just keep going and going :D

The money is an issue- Money doesn't grow on trees and I am having a rough time harvesting that money that never grows :\

Servos would keep going also. You stop that by having limit switches and setting soft limits within the controling software. I.e. Mach3.

Servo's just have the encoder to help them keep up with their location. But if your stepper doesn't lose steps. It will know where it is also.

Servos would keep going also. You stop that by having limit switches and setting soft limits within the controling software. I.e. Mach3.

Servo's just have the encoder to help them keep up with their location. But if your stepper doesn't lose steps. It will know where it is also.
True 'dat, I fully intend to set up soft limits in Mach, I doubt I would need switches if the software is already there :D

limit switches = cheap insurance for when something goes wrong.

I plan on using both.... software set at like 100mm and limits at 110mm, or whatever the measurements end up being.

Burn if you use servos, and should something happen to one of your encoder leads.....the motor goes into what is call run a way! It will stop if it hits something that is strong enought to stop it, or a limit switch that is wired into the e stop system. Well it might stop if it hit a limit switch without it being wired into the e system....but I don't want to chance it.

Mike

Over travel switches on each axis with the servo system would be a good idea. Runaway servos are exciting but like turmite said the switches are a cheap way prevent damage to the machine especially if you plan on running it unattended. We've had some fairly spectacular crashes at work on the machining centers when a servo goes haywire.

Haha- You all have changed my mind :)

Know of any good kits for the Taig?

Burn if you use servos, and should something happen to one of your encoder leads.....the motor goes into what is call run a way!

Mike

That's not the case with our SV-500 servos. We frequently test cables and encoder pigtails with the motor power applied. This involves plugging and unplugging the encoder connections. The motors stay motionless, without faulting the drives, during the disconnect and reconnecting of the encoder wires.

When the motor is moving, if an encoder wire is removed, the motor may attempt to take off at full speed, the SV-500 servo driver detects the error condition and faults, before the motor moves more than a rev or two of the output shaft. Once one driver has faulted, the enable to all drivers is immediately signaled and all motors are stopped.

Fred Smith - IMService
http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/hobby

Fred that is a neat safty feature. That would definitately influence my decision if I were going servos. Right now I'm so happy with steppers I don't have a reason to change.

Mike

Hi Burn,

What Fred said is true about the IM serve drivers, I use them and like them and a runaway servo is something that does not happen. The same thing holds when running a machine program in the sense that there is no reason for your machine to run into anything if the program is ok. When I first test a parts program, I run it with no tool in place and the Z zero set higher than needed so that the machine will not hit anything in such a way to cause damage. I then run the machine with the spindle off and observe the motion. If satisfied, I run with a tool in place, and finally cut metal if all looks ok. Also when you first load a program and view the tool path in 3D, any gross dimension errors are obvious by tool paths that run off the screen or out of the machine envelope. I have crashed when I have entered a 10 in place of a 1 or misplaced a decimal point. The IMserve servo motors/drivers with a TAG are sensetive enough to encoder errors that if you hit a stop or lead screw end, the servos will fault without damaging the machine. If you use the Deskcnc controller, combination home / limit switches work great. I use this method on all my machines. Remember, nothing can compensate for human error, the machine always folows the program. Proper approach to beginning the work is the answer no matter what system is used. If you intend to actually make duplicate parts on an ongoing basis, home switches are essential to be able to fixture a pice of material and start at a known location with repeatability. Without them, each time you shut down for down time or a program problem or fault, you will have to accuratly relocate your X & Y zero points with an edge finder or a dowel pin in the chuck, then touch off z zero with the tool. Use a little imagination here and you will begin to see what a pain in the *$# this could be, especially when troubleshooting a program with errors. With the switches, hit the home button and you are back up and running in a minute rather than 5 or 10.

Hi Burn,

What Fred said is true about the IM serve drivers, I use them and like them and a runaway servo is something that does not happen. The same thing holds when running a machine program in the sense that there is no reason for your machine to run into anything if the program is ok. When I first test a parts program, I run it with no tool in place and the Z zero set much higher than needed so that the machine will not hit anything in such a way to cause damage. I then run the machine with the spindle off and observe the motion. If satisfied, I run with a tool in place, and finally reset z then cut metal if all looks ok. Also when you first load a program and view the tool path in 3D, any gross dimension errors are obvious by tool paths that run off the screen or out of the machine envelope. I have crashed when I have entered a 10 in place of a 1 or misplaced a decimal point. The IMserve servo motors/drivers with a TAG are sensetive enough to encoder errors that if you hit a stop or lead screw end, the servos will fault without damaging the machine. However, you can knock the column out of alignment but without damage if you hit the vice or fixture with the Z axis. If you use the Deskcnc controller, combination home / limit switches work great. I use this method on all my machines. Remember, nothing can compensate for human error, the machine always folows the program. Proper approach to beginning the work is the answer no matter what system is used. If you intend to actually make duplicate parts on an ongoing basis, home switches are essential. They enable you to quickly fixture a piece of material and start at a known location with repeatability. Without them, each time you shut down for down-time or a program problem or fault, you will have to accuratly relocate your X & Y zero points with an edge finder or a dowel pin in the chuck, then touch off z zero with the tool. Use a little imagination here and you will begin to see what a pain in the *$# this could be, especially when troubleshooting a program with errors. When using the switches, you hit the home button and are back up and running in seconds rather than 5 or 10 minutes.