Which program would you pick for a person starting out in the CNC hobby with hopes of expanding his hobby to a business someday? BobCAD/CAM or Rhino with a separate CAM Program? If you choose "Other" please let me know which program you would go for, but keep in mind that I'm on a tight budget.

Gray.....who hopes this poll works.

henryblowery this is not an accurate poll due to the fact that Bobcad/cam is just that. It is cad and cam. Rhino is cad/modeling only unless you add cam to it. If you included one or more of the plugins for Rhino that gives you cam this would be a more accurate poll.

With that said, I'll go back and vote for Rhino but only with the caveat that a cam has to be added and my vote for that is Madcam.

Mike

For the money I like BobCad. For a really nice CAM package I like SprutCAM.

BobCad-Cam V21 on a tight budget. I've been using BCC since V17. Since then upgraded to V19, V20, V21, and next V22. BCC is a POWERFUL AFFORDABLE Software that keeps getting better and better.
Above all try as many demos for yourself!!!!!!!!! Only you will know what is best for your application. Your the only person that can make the decision of what is best for you.

I too have been using BobCad/Cam since V19 & 20.6, it has been a great program
for me and they keep getting better.

Guy

Which program would you pick for a person starting out in the CNC hobby with hopes of expanding his hobby to a business someday? BobCAD/CAM or Rhino with a separate CAM Program? If you choose "Other" please let me know which program you would go for, but keep in mind that I'm on a tight budget.

Gray.....who hopes this poll works.
if you are just starting to learn cad/cam look at programs like sheetcam they are less than $200.You will learn the basis of wireframe and cam after you have learn this then move on to more advanced software.

Also you can't compare Rhino to Bobcad other than the drawing package Rino is not a cam software it an add on package at many many dollars young man. But as far as drawing, Bobcad can draw just as good as Rhino I bet 95% of Rhino user would not notice any real deference unless you are doing advanced 3d..

Also you can't compare Rhino to Bobcad other than the drawing package Rino is not a cam software it an add on package at many many dollars young man.But as far as drawing, Bobcad can draw just as good as Rhino for 95% of the user .



:D :D :D :D :D :wave: Don't Forget that BCC has Excellent Tech Support.

Which program would you pick for a person starting out in the CNC hobby with hopes of expanding his hobby to a business someday? BobCAD/CAM or Rhino with a separate CAM Program? If you choose "Other" please let me know which program you would go for, but keep in mind that I'm on a tight budget.

Gray.....who hopes this poll works.


I see that you are 14 years old. How tight is your budget? Are you looking at something just to do cool designs with, or looking for something to actually machine with also? What is your exact direction when you say a "hobby" that you might someday turn into a buisness?

Beep, beep, beep we have two "other"s without explanations.

For those of you who pointed out that Rhino doesn't have CAM,
I know that and I ment to ask everybody who voted for Rhino to let us know what CAM program you would use with it.

tobyaxis,
I tried to download the demo, but they wanted to much information. What's the name of your business...????????I don't have one yet. I can't remember, but I think they also wanted to know my phone # and home address. I'm sorry, but they can get that information when I buy the real thing and not before.

As ya'll can see from my profile I'm just a kid. I'm also homeschooled so I can get the student version of Rhino for $190. I haven't looked at many of the CAM programs, but I think they have discounted prices as well.

Getting Rhino and a separate CAM program might be a little more expensive, but BobCAD/CAM has a bad name over at PM so I'm kind of wavering......I feel like one of my sisters deciding which blouse to get.

Thanks for the help.

Gray

tobyaxis,
I tried to download the demo, but they wanted to much information. What's the name of your business...????????I don't have one yet. I can't remember, but I think they also wanted to know my phone # and home address. I'm sorry, but they can get that information when I buy the real thing and not before.
Gray

If you don't try the software how will you know which one best fits your application? As far as giving a little information this is standard practice World Wide. It's not like handing out your SS#, it's a way for someone to see if the download went smoothly and if you have any questions on how to get started in using the Software. All Standard.

I see that you are 14 years old. How tight is your budget? Are you looking at something just to do cool designs with, or looking for something to actually machine with also? What is your exact direction when you say a "hobby" that you might someday turn into a buisness?

Yes, I'm 14 years old. I'm hoping to get every thing I need(software wise) for under $1000. Yes, I plan to do CNC machining.....I don't have enough money to blow several hundred dollers on a program just to make cool designs(wish I did though).

"What is your exact direction when you say a "hobby" that you might someday turn into a buisness?"

Well, I got into machining through guns.....I'm real into firearms and I decided to see how people made them. When I get skilled enough, I would like to make my own firearms from scratch(that's the hobby part).

When I get even better, I would like to make after market parts for firearms such as AR-15's and other things that are aimed for the home gunsmithing industry(is that the right word?).

I also have a friend who is into paint ball.....he might let me know what the paintball guys want and I can make it and he can market it :).

We also have a place here(PM does as well) where people can request a quote...when I get better, I might be able to "bid" on some of those jobs(that's the business part).

Thanks again for the help.

Gray

If you don't try the software how will you know which one best fits your application? As far as giving a little information this is standard practice World Wide. It's not like handing out your SS#, it's a way for someone to see if the download went smoothly and if you have any questions on how to get started in using the Software. All Standard.

I don't want to sound rude or offensive but are you old enough to even be on this site? Sorry I had to ask.

"As far as giving a little information this is standard practice World Wide."

I didn't have to give out this information when I tried Rhino or any of the other programs. All I had to do was give them an email address and they've been checking up on me and answering all of my questions.....without needing to know my address and phone #

"I don't want to sound rude or offensive but are you old enough to even be on this site? Sorry I had to ask."

I'll ignore that. I belong on several forums, rarely do I try and conceal my age. There are always people who treat me like dirt because of my age, people that treat me like I'm 40, and people that help me out because of my age. I just tune out the first group and move on.

Gray

"As far as giving a little information this is standard practice World Wide."

I didn't have to give out this information when I tried Rhino or any of the other programs. All I had to do was give them an email address and they've been checking up on me and answering all of my questions.....without needing to know my address and phone #

"I don't want to sound rude or offensive but are you old enough to even be on this site? Sorry I had to ask."

I'll ignore that. I belong on several forums, rarely do I try and conceal my age. There are always people who treat me like dirt because of my age, people that treat me like I'm 40, and people that help me out because of my age. I just tune out the first group and move on.

Gray



:confused: :confused: :confused: FYI I didn't treat you like dirt, and already gave you helpful information in a previous post. :cool:

Also you can't compare Rhino to Bobcad other than the drawing package Rino is not a cam software it an add on package at many many dollars young man. But as far as drawing, Bobcad can draw just as good as Rhino I bet 95% of Rhino user would not notice any real deference unless you are doing advanced 3d..

There isn't much of any comparison between the drawing in BCC and Rhino. The interface is totally different (in my opinion) and rhino is a much more open ended modeller. Not a whole lot compares to the ease of use of Rhino. Actual realtime shaded viewing is a real plus too. It's not a fun thing comparing virtually any CAD app to Rhino because it really is very good at what it does. It has a limited scope and they've done well making it do what it was meant to do (and that's draw 3D nurbs objects). Also, you must keep in mind that your 95% is very skewed because the majority of Rhino users are using it to do the advanced 3D stuff and so I'd say that MOST of the Rhino users will definately notice a big difference between the two. There's only one really good reason to use Rhino and thats doing advanced NURBS so you'll find most of the users using it for that purpose.

That having been said... It's a nurbs modeller. If you want it to do something else you might be out of luck. It does have some meshing support and supports line drawing and such but Autocad it is not. It's dimensioning leaves a lot to be desired and it's pretty much not associative at all. The associativity is starting to get there a bit in ver4 but it's nothing like SolidWorks and the like.

Like the original poster said, the educational version of rhino isn't really that terribly expensive. Rhino has the availability of cheap CAM add-ons. Does BobCAD also have an educational discount? If not then that's a major showstopper because it would make it MORE expensive than going the rhino route. If BobCAD does have educational pricing then it would be something to look into. That would give the poster some machining capabilities without added expense.

So the bottom line of this whole post is this: If 3D design is your goal then I would go with Rhino hands down. It's hard to beat it's features and the advanced visualization options. It's a very good learning tool to be able to see the surfaces as solids so that you can immediately see where any mistakes or weird areas are. But if machining is your goal then maybe BCC would be a better place to start. The better part for BCC is that it's very low level compared to other CAM products and so you will be forced to learn how to do things yourself rather than rely on software to do it. That's great for learning, not always so great when you already know what you are doing and what you want and you DO want the software to just spit out paths for you. Also, you will develop a more intimate relationship with GCODE by using BCC and it's never a bad idea to learn your G-Codes.

Keep in mind that if you plan to do work for people it would be naughty to use the educational version of software. Rhino is around 800 dollars to buy the commercial version. Adding CAM on top could get pricey. There are some free or cheap CAM apps for rhino but I haven't tried them. You could test them out and see how it goes.

BobCAD can be had for $500 if you are willing to talk to their sales people and haggle. Personally, BCC is not my favorite but plenty of people use it, you'll be able to get support from the company and on this forum, and it's cheap, cheap ,cheap.

Yes, I'm 14 years old. I'm hoping to get every thing I need(software wise) for under $1000. Yes, I plan to do CNC machining.....I don't have enough money to blow several hundred dollers on a program just to make cool designs(wish I did though).
Gray

:confused: :confused: :confused: FYI I didn't treat you like dirt, and already gave you helpful information in a previous post. :cool:

He didn't say you did. ;)

He didn't say you did. ;)

I guess you think I work for BobCad? Actually I might just decide to do that or continue being a Programmer/Machinist. Just because someone knows just a tiny bit about something doesn't mean anything. You could say I work for Fanuc too. Death Adder Knows quite a bit about Rhino, that doesn't mean he works for them? ;)

"FYI I didn't treat you like dirt, and already gave you helpful information in a previous post."

YOU haven't treated me like dirt but others have(on other boards). You have given me helpfull information on a couple previous posts....not just one and I am greatfull for that. I'll learn any thing from anyone that I can, but I'm not going to let "are you old enough for this site" bother me. I'll skip it and move on.

Death Adder,
Thanks for you very informative post. I'll take what you said into consideration.

I have asked them if it was ok to use the student version if I started a small business, and they said yes. All I have to do is buy the commercial upgrade when I'm not longer a student.

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ger21
He didn't say you did.


I guess you think I work for BobCad? Actually I might just decide to do that or continue being a Programmer/Machinist. Just because someone knows just a tiny bit about something doesn't mean anything. You could say I work for Fanuc too. Death Adder Knows quite a bit about Rhino, that doesn't mean he works for them.

FYI: "Rules for MINORS on Public WebSites"
__________________"

What the heck?????? Where does he imply that you work for BobCAD/CAM?

Gray

"FYI I didn't treat you like dirt, and already gave you helpful information in a previous post."

YOU haven't treated me like dirt but others have(on other boards). You have given me helpfull information on a couple previous posts....not just one and I am greatfull for that. I'll learn any thing from anyone that I can, but I'm not going to let "are you old enough for this site" bother me. I'll skip it and move on.

Death Adder,
Thanks for you very informative post. I'll take what you said into consideration.

I have asked them if it was ok to use the student version if I started a small business, and they said yes. All I have to do is buy the commercial upgrade when I'm not longer a student.

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ger21
He didn't say you did.


I guess you think I work for BobCad? Actually I might just decide to do that or continue being a Programmer/Machinist. Just because someone knows just a tiny bit about something doesn't mean anything. You could say I work for Fanuc too. Death Adder Knows quite a bit about Rhino, that doesn't mean he works for them.

FYI: "Rules for MINORS on Public WebSites"
__________________"

What the heck?????? Where does he imply that you work for BobCAD/CAM?

Gray


By a joke I made in another post, which was actually quite funny. Enjoy yourself here and Learn as much as you can. If you have any questions about Tools or anything there are thousands of people in this Forum that are very smart and will be glad to help.
:D

HI Gary,

I would like to offer advice that has come from experience.

Let me start by saying that I am thrilled to see 14 yr olds interested in something other than gaming or hanging out. I'm on the other side of the age hill and would like to see you make less mistakes than I have made.

First, since you are just now starting this process, take your time to formulate a long range plan both for business and for education. The last should take precedent over the first. If, and I mean after a lot of searching, this is what you want to do, then begin the education now by taking all the math you can take, plan on going to school where you can learn the process from beginning to end.

My advice would be to save your money and get only enough to get what you have to have to get started. Use all the demos and free software you can to get started with. Should you decide to go with Rhino, I urge you to take as much training on it as you can afford. The program has some much more to offer that the public never sees. Now before the Bobcad guys get on me let me say that I started with Bobcad way back when it was still Dos, and have upgraded till version 17. It got me started and helped me make money. Not much, but that wasn't Bobcad's fault. Now here is where the kicker comes in. When I got Rhino, almost nothing I had learned on Bobcad helped me learn Rhino, and in some cases was a hinderence. The newer versions of Bobcad might not be that way, but in my case it was.

I still used Bobcad v17 on some toolpaths that I can grasp using Madcam, which as I told you in my first post is a plugin that sits inside of Rhino. The cam strategies used in BCC v17 and Madcam are completely different and what I had learned about cam in V17 was again mostly useless in the learning process. I'm sure that would not be the case now because Bobcad now has surface machining capabilities and 17 did not.

I know this has kinda been rambling, but get the gist of it and take your time, save your money till you need it.

Mike

ps check www.turnercustoms.com and you will see we have similar interest!

I have asked them if it was ok to use the student version if I started a small business, and they said yes. All I have to do is buy the commercial upgrade when I'm not longer a student.

Yes, you would need to purchase the commercial upgrade, but that doesn't mean that you cannot use the educational version you have to make money. You buy it as a student, and keep it for life. You just couldn't purchase an upgrade in the future at a student rate if you are not a student.

Dan

Personal you don't write like a 14 year old. your mother has done wonders for you if your home schooled. Also at your age you should just play with Demos of Bobcad and Rhino. Save your money or just spend as little as you can on a basic 2 1/2 axis software. But before you buy anything talk to your mother and father about spending the money. There maybe other uses for your money now. But you have picked a field where a young kid can make some money in. Best of luck to you young man I hope someday I read about what you are building on this site

We all forgot about Alibre www.alibre.com the basic version is free and they have sales from time to time like 50% off. It supports OpenGL and Parametric Modeling. Download the Free Version then find a CAM system to use with it. Just make sure the CAM system you choose supports the file extentions in Alibre. ;)

We all forgot about Alibre www.alibre.com the basic version is free and they have sales from time to time like 50% off. It supports OpenGL and Parametric Modeling. Download the Free Version then find a CAM system to use with it. Just make sure the CAM system you choose supports the file extentions in Alibre. ;)

Actually, I think it uses DirectX and not OpenGL. :)

Actually, I think it uses DirectX and not OpenGL. :)

Indeed it does. I'm downloading it right now because... well... I've never tried it before. What have you got to lose when it's free?

I tried it last year and got burned by it. I imported a Rhino file to add some fillets, and Alibre changed a surface on me. We ended up welding and recutting. I also found that it is lousy at nice flowing fillets. It doesn't seem to know what tangency and continuity are.

Other than that, it was pretty impressive.

Dan

Well so far my impressions are this:

It's slow to start up

The sales staff is starting to remind me of the old BobCAD sales staff. I got a call like 30 minutes after downloading Alibre (actually used my real info like an idiot!) and also got an email. Nothing like being right on the ball!

I could not find any example files included with Alibre. Am I just not finding them?

Alibre seems to use Rhino's OpenNURBS library. I wonder how dependant it is.

It seems fairly nice and full featured. It's sort of set up like SolidWorks. I'd bet it is supposed to be more of a competitor to SW than Rhino.

I tried it last year and got burned by it. I imported a Rhino file to add some fillets, and Alibre changed a surface on me. We ended up welding and recutting. I also found that it is lousy at nice flowing fillets. It doesn't seem to know what tangency and continuity are.

Other than that, it was pretty impressive.

Dan

Well so far my impressions are this:

It's slow to start up

It likes a pretty fast PC. My old PIII 550 took almost a minute for it to start. My X2 4400 takes about 6 seconds.



The sales staff is starting to remind me of the old BobCAD sales staff. I got a call like 30 minutes after downloading Alibre (actually used my real info like an idiot!) and also got an email. Nothing like being right on the ball!


When it first became available, they didn't call. And, I believe you can elect not to get emails. When I downloaded the upgrade to the 9.x version, I did get a single phone call. I wasn't home, and they never called again.



I could not find any example files included with Alibre. Am I just not finding them?


There are tutorials, but I don't think there are any samples. Probably to keep the download smaller.


It seems fairly nice and full featured. It's sort of set up like SolidWorks. I'd bet it is supposed to be more of a competitor to SW than Rhino.

It's comparable to all the parametric solid modelers out there, but probably lacks features that the more expensive ones have.

But hey, it's free. And for free, it's awfully hard to beat. Plus, as one of the first 100,000 to dowmload it, I have a few more features than yours does. :)

Well, I've downloaded the demo version of BobCAD(put a bunch of BS in the form). So far I like the layout of Rhino better, but I plan on playing with them this month and I might come to like BobCAD as well.

Gray

Well, I've played with them a little bit more. I still like the layout of Rhino better and their help section is much better then BobCAD/CAM. The demo version of BobCAD is missing save(you can save up to 30(I think) files with the demo version of Rhino), rendering, extract edges, and several other things. But perhaps two hours isn't a fair comparison.

Gray

If you are going to spend your money. Then look at bobcad version 19 at your age by the time you need or even understand half of the software you'll be closer to 17 years old.
Where as you are just starting to learn you need to learn wire frame geometry first and then move on to solids.
With software it's always a new product every year or two. So by the time you are ready to cut something if you buy the latest and greats now it will be outdated down the road. Save your money and buy student copy of solidworks or AutoCAD it less money and you will learn all you need.
You may have a local vo-tech that has a night class in AutoCAD you could take. Also by you post I don't think you are 14 I think that B.S. but what ever

"I'll ignore that. I belong on several forums, rarely do I try and conceal my age. There are always people who treat me like dirt because of my age, people that treat me like I'm 40, and people that help me out because of my age. I just tune out the first group and move on.Gray
can expect people just to post what you want to hear

Mike, I have a question for you. What exactly do you mean when you say wireframe? I've been doing 3D CAD for about 12 years, and to me, the term wireframe is just a type of view, showing only the edges of a model. You can have a wireframe view of any type of model, whether it be a mesh, nurbs surface, or solid model.

And you say wireframe is for beginners, but imo, there isn't much difference in skill or difficulty when making different types of 3D models. In fact, solid modeling is probably easier to learn then mesh or nurbs modeling.

There are many products that are not designed using solid modeling. Car bodies are one good example. Solid modeling lends itself very well to mechanical type parts, and surface modelling software is better for more free flowing, organic shapes. There is no one type is better than the other. Use the tool that best fits the job. The software is a tool. I'd learn the one that fits what you want to design.

What software you use depends on what type of parts you want to make.

Gerry,
Wire frame reefer to two entities that join.This is the bases for all join entities to form a tool path into a chain.When we first start with cad we make a box. The box has four entities (4 side in 2d). This is what we use for a chain to cut a frame. With soilds if you extra edges you have the wireframe of the solid itselt. Without wireframe you can't make a solid surface.Unless you use cross sectional geometry which acts as a wireframe.
That why I say that for someone starting out has to learn wireframe first.I remember when I started in cad.Just trying to trim a line was a pain to trim on the side I wanted. A 3d surface is not for someone starting out.But is for the person who knows wireframe, it the next step..
Also many people draw in 3d and have nothing to do with cnc. Take PC games for an example it all 3d wireframe and solid modelling but no machining.This is what I mean by 3d Drawing.I personally can't see why anyone would have any type of cnc and just limit themself to 2 1/2 axis.

Depends on the software. In AutoCAD, for example, there are different ways to get a solid. The easiest is to pick opposite corners, and you get a solid box. No need to draw it in 2D (or wireframe for you). But you can also extrude 2D shapes, and revolve them, so yes, you need to learn a little 2D first. But, if you use something like Alibre, the 2D is part of the process, and is integrated into the 3D. So you'd learn both together.

Does BoBCAD actually call it wireframe? Because every other CAD or modelling software I've seen just calls it 2D. Thanks for the explanation, btw.

Autocad , Alibrie and Rhino (I did download a copy of V3 it has improved much from when I looked at V2) are great software.If you could justify the cost for a drawing package and a cam package.
But dose the person starting out need to spend all that money. when they don't even know 2d.
Take for example the post from the other day. It was (maybe) from a 14 year old. By the time this kid even understand 2d and use it he'll be more like 17 years old. Why buy any 3d package. But the person who knows autocad why buy something like sheetcam when you can do more.This is what I like about software like Bobcad and onecnc you get both without spending an arm and a leg.

Does BoBCAD actually call it wireframe? Because every other CAD or modelling software I've seen just calls it 2D. Thanks for the explanation, btw.
they do use the term.But that was my def. Most people use the term 2d it something we all know.Where wireframe can be misleading
In Bobcad 3d (I don't know if this is true for other software) you can't pull a demension off a surface you have to extract edge first and demension from wireframe

Without wireframe you can't make a solid surface.Unless you use cross sectional geometry which acts as a wireframe.


Depends on the software. In AutoCAD, for example, there are different ways to get a solid. The easiest is to pick opposite corners, .

You first need a wireframe before you have opposite corners, Uniess you use points, then you are using "cross sectional geometry which acts as a wireframe"
More people can spend $500 for a 3d drawing package. But can they also spend $500 or less for cam to go along with drawing package? If they can do 3d drawing then your cam is going to be more than $500.

Examples of 3D Wire Frame and 3D Solid Model Created in BCC V20.7 ;)

This started off as a basic 2D box, a 3D box and so on in the creation process.

As a note Catia V4 only used Wire Frame Drawings until V5.

:rainfro:

As I said before, the only the difference between those is the type of view. They are both a solid model. Ones a shaded view, and ones a wireframe view. Both are the same solid model, correct?

You first need a wireframe before you have opposite corners, Uniess you use points, then you are using "cross sectional geometry which acts as a wireframe"


You just enter the two corner locations (X,Y,Z). You don't need to draw points or lines, unlesss you need them for reference.

As I said before, the only the difference between those is the type of view. They are both a solid model. Ones a shaded view, and ones a wireframe view. Both are the same solid model, correct?


Though these are the same part the wire frame is extracted from the solid model. I started with a basic 2d rectangle and built from there adding, removing solids with Boolean functions. Not to mention that this isn't shading, it's a Rendering function in BCC because at this point in time they don't support OpenGL Graphics Interface. First you have to Select the wireframe geometry or solid then use the Rendering function. Here is a screen shot with just the CAD screen.

You just enter the two corner locations (X,Y,Z). You don't need to draw points or lines, unlesss you need them for reference.
Autocad is great software I never spent enought time with it to really get good with it.By imputing the corners for a surface you are still using ."cross sectional geometry which acts as a wireframe" even if point are not on the screen.
action-object object-action All cad/cam use this principal, but that's an autocad function with the corners of a box
But imputting just the corners is a nice option. It's not something that can be done in Bobcad. Software like Autocad,Alibrie and Rhino are much better software for 3d drawing than Bobcad or Onecnc.Those software have many nice little option for doing thing fast,tracking changes and a little easer, but you are paying for it.

Gerry,

Also Alibre, AutoCAD, TurboCAD, SolidWorks, and many others use a Cplane Constraint Method to be able to draw. Though the function is nice for Engineers and designers your typical Machinist (unless, your a tool and die, or mold) may not really have a need for using Cplane Constraints. It really depends on the user and their abilities using CAD Systems. In any CAD Based software wire frames are the building blocks for 2D, 3D, and Solid Modeling.

"Build it, and they will come" ;)

Though these are the same part the wire frame is extracted from the solid model. I started with a basic 2d rectangle and built from there adding, removing solids with Boolean functions. Not to mention that this isn't shading, it's a Rendering function in BCC because at this point in time they don't support OpenGL Graphics Interface. First you have to Select the wireframe geometry or solid then use the Rendering function. Here is a screen shot with just the CAD screen.

But why do you have to "extract" a wireframe? I've seen plenty create toopaths from the solid model itself? Or are you extracting edges to follow them for the profiles?

Also Alibre, AutoCAD, TurboCAD, SolidWorks, and many others use a Cplane Constraint Method to be able to draw.

In AutoCAD, you're not necessarily constrained to a plane when drawing. Certain 2D entites are, but not all. Also, in AutoCAD, 2D drawings (wireframes to you BobCAD guys :) )) are not always needed for solid modeling and booleans. There are a lot of primitive shapes that can just be placed anywhere on the screen.

And the difference between an Open GL and DirectX shaded model vs a rendered one, is minimal. A rendering is a picture, the shading is like a real time movie.

It just seems to me (from what I here), is that BoBCAD works very differently than most other CAD and CAM programs. When Sorin posts his video tutorials, I'll check it out. But it's unlikely I'll be crossing over to the dark side. ;)

When I do drawings and solids I end up with two separate drawings. The first one is the construction, and the second the finished Model. Models like these have a tendancy to be Large in Mega Bites when you have everything all in one Drawing, hence I split them up. Extractions from Solids help you to find various points for rotating, adding and subtracting solids for Boolean Functions, or in BobCads case a way to draw Custom Tool Path Geometry for special Cutters(one of the set backs in BCC at the moment).

This is a little difficult for me to explain in words and the only way I could help you to understand is to Show you. Also I haven't worked with AutoCAD since High School and that was 15 years ago and Alibre was a pain when trying to create wire frame for models.

I guess you could say that, "I Dislike CAD Cplane Constraints" :D

And the difference between an Open GL and DirectX shaded model vs a rendered one, is minimal. A rendering is a picture, the shading is like a real time movie.

It just seems to me (from what I here), is that BoBCAD works very differently than most other CAD and CAM programs. When Sorin posts his video tutorials, I'll check it out. But it's unlikely I'll be crossing over to the dark side. ;)

BCC is different in many aspects to your typical CAD system. Maybe Sorins videos will show you the "Ways of the Force"!!! :p

Don't give in to "Hate" for that is the path to "The Dark Side of the Force" ;) :rainfro:

Gerry here is a link to Modern Machine Shop Magazine. There is a small artical about BobCAD-CAM V20.

http://www.mmsonline.com/equipment/17649.html

Can Ya'll recommend a good 2d program? Thanks.

Gray

Try Powerstion expert it's the first cad/cam I bought and when you get good you can upgrade to the full powerstion pro/plus if you want. But with this program you will learn 2 1/2 axis machining and drawing.They have a sale on 50% of so your cost is about $250 http://www.microcimm.com/

Can Ya'll recommend a good 2d program? Thanks.

Gray

If you just want CAD, try DesignCAD. www.imsisoft.com Does 3D as well for only about $80. They also have a new CAM package for it for $150, but I don't know how good it is.

If you just want CAD, try DesignCAD. www.imsisoft.com Does 3D as well for only about $80. They also have a new CAM package for it for $150, but I don't know how good it is.
Gray these are the types of program you should look at.It take both time and a willingness to learn cad/cam. You have the will, now give it the time. Spend as little as possible now to learn.

i used turbocad for years to generate 2 1/2D cutter paths. If you use Mach3 for machine control, you can import the paths directy. Turbocad can be purchased for less than $100 and it is decent. You can probably get a copy for much less on ebay. Mach3 is $159 for machine control. Then you need motors, a mill, power supply, drivers etc. I don't think you can do it for $1000.

I've been using CATIA for 23 yrs. I can't find anything that works better or generates better Gcode. (it is way, way, beyond your budget).

You mentioned Mach3 which was what I was going to ask.. Can't you export something made in Rhino into an autocad format which can then be directly imported into Mach3 so you don't need any intermediate CAM software?

mach3 will import dxf files (autocad format) that are 2d lines, arcs, etc. It will then generate cutter paths based on the geometry with z level depth control. I don't know if it handles splines, definitely not 3d splines or nurbs curves. Not as automatic as you would like. In order to get true 3d cutter paths you need a CAM program like Mastercam, bobcam, etc.

Ahh, ok. So for simple "cut a hole here and a rectangle there" sort of thing it would work, but for 3d structures it probably wouldn't?

yes, correct, unless your 3d is prismatic like a cube, rectangle, etc. A lot of people on the mach3 forum use bobcad/cam.

Virtual Gibbs is the only one for me.:cool:

BobCAD/CAM does have it’s quirkiness about it. No doubts about it. It is somewhat convoluted in “steps”. The whole model/select, select/model thing is somewhat hard to remember. The graphical interface doesn’t remind me of the latest Pixar movie. All said though. I firmly believe that it is the greatest “value” you can buy. It is an “integrated” cad/cam system. Because of its close relationship between the two, it can be a great asset. Argue if you will the shortcomings of it, but I still see the logic in value.

I can't advise you at all which is better. I have used AutoCad V14 for several years. I have barely scratched the surface of what it will do. I use it mainly to generate mechanical drawings for my machine shop.

I am in the design stage & soon will begin the "build" of a CNC burning table. For that I found I needed a CAM software & for a burning table I also wanted nesting software. I was ablt to purchase BobCAD/CAM with BobArt-X & Bobnest & 18 months of tech support for under $1000.00.

One down side to BobCad is they have a very aggressive sales team. You have to ask them at times....... "WHAT PART OF NO DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND"

Like Toby pointed out at the beginning of this thread, only YOU can decide what works best for your needs.

Personally, if I was your age & just starting out, I would buy Rhino, and if you could swing it RhinoCAM. Since you are of age, it might not be a bad idea to try to get an educational version at a discount. I think that if you start drawing in BobCAD it will RUIN your brain...Rhino will give you a good foundation for many other packages, and make learning much easier.

Make sure when you fill out the BobCAD info sheet that you give them ALL of your phone numbers, not just your home phone (include your cell, beeper and what room you'll be in at any given time of the day at school) so that they will be able to reach you every time there is an exciting offer...Seriously, as others have pointed out, don't spend full price for BC. Hold out until it is $500 or LESS including the manual AND video tutorials. I can tell you that not many professionals use BC, but many pros use Rhino & RhinoCAM...of course BC sales will tell you otherwise. I own BC by the way, and paid full price...It's sitting on the shelf holding up books at the moment...

If you are just getting into CNC and want an easy to learn and powerful 2D CAD?CAM package you would do very well with ArtCAM Insignia-E (Around $800) or Vectric's V-Carve Pro. You can draw, import existing vectors (DXF, EPS, AI etc) into these programs and toolpath them easily.

-B

I think that you can not make a statement that many professional don't use BobCAD. There are several 1,000s of professionals using it. You just have a preferance that is differant than theirs.

I think that you can not make a statement that many professional don't use BobCAD. There are several 1,000s of professionals using it. You just have a preferance that is differant than theirs.

Really? BobCAD couldn't give me even ONE professional within 200 miles of Philly, PA as a reference. BC is not suited for a professional CNC job shop. It is not efficient enough for the types of things than need to be created and toolpathed quickly AND reliably.

Now...I think that it is GREAT that BC exists in the marketplace for very small shops that produce a few of the SAME things over and over again, AND for hobbiests to get into the game. I'll give them props for that sector of the market. As far as being robust enough for a Pro, it isn't. Their software is never finished as a complete release...it's always '...but version XYZ is going to be really great..." If BC wants respect from Pros, they should get complete on their product first before calling me 47 times to get me to buy an upgrade to fix problems in the release that I bought. Everybody else issues free patches in acknowledgement that they screwed up, why should I pay them to fix what should have been right in the 1st place?

To be fair, I am completely open to seeing examples of product components (real selling products) AND hearing from real professionals that use this software...just a few out of the 'thousands' shouldn't be hard to muster up.

Again, it's great that BC exists to fulfill a specific niche in the marketplace for guys getting started...I can only comment as a CUSTOMER of BC and my experience.

-B

Braidmeister-

I completely agree with you as far as the Rhino/BC comparison.

Rhino = intuitive and graceful manipulation of surfaces/solids.
BC= Should I really be wasting my time learning this?

I was recently pressured by a sales guy that would tell me anything I wanted to hear if I would just act now. I asked if BC's parallel finish routing could generate G02/G03 moves in the X-Z / Y-Z planes, and he said it would. Mastercam does it, anyone believe BC can do it?

I have been using Rhino for almost 8 years now. I am now to the point where I can go from a company logo to a carved product in about 6 hours (1 hr machining)

I would like to challenge anyone with bobcad to make draw/carve one of these:

I could barely draw a curve in BC without wanting to throw a wrench at my screen. Might make the GUI look sharper, too.

Hey I like the spider! Nice work!

I use ArtCAM Pro pretty much exclusively, but there are lots of things that I like using Rhino for...I'm probably on par in ArtCAM as you are in Rhino...but I sure wish I had the Rhino skills too!

-B

Braidmeister-

I completely agree with you as far as the Rhino/BC comparison.

Rhino = intuitive and graceful manipulation of surfaces/solids.
BC= Should I really be wasting my time learning this?

I was recently pressured by a sales guy that would tell me anything I wanted to hear if I would just act now. I asked if BC's parallel finish routing could generate G02/G03 moves in the X-Z / Y-Z planes, and he said it would. Mastercam does it, anyone believe BC can do it?

I have been using Rhino for almost 8 years now. I am now to the point where I can go from a company logo to a carved product in about 6 hours (1 hr machining)

I would like to challenge anyone with bobcad to make draw/carve one of these:

I could barely draw a curve in BC without wanting to throw a wrench at my screen. Might make the GUI look sharper, too.


Are those really drawn by you or Raster to Vector images? Quite impressive work but I think I have those posters of Eddy. True enough that BCC won't perform Arcs in G19 like Mastercam (BCC does arcs in G18 in the Lathe Function), but considering the Price differences Mastercam better do a lot. Rhino on the other hand hasn't any CAM interface yet. Just a Plug In by MadCAM that has to be purchased separately. Unless they have done this in the last 6 months, I could very well be wrong. Virtual Mill 5.0 was offered as well but CRASHED with Files over 25MB.

Speaking from experience with BCC V17, V19, V20, V21, MC V8.1.1, V9.1, a little MCX, and RhinoCAD, I'd have to say that each one has it's own Pros and Cons. Ultimately the choice is still up to the individual.:rolleyes:

Cheers :cheers:

The pictured work is by no means raster to vector images. Eddy was traced in 2d, then I manipulated control points, sweeping and patching surfaces, control point editing, and drinking coffee until 4 am. The model is actually quite sloppy, but with my 3 axis, the top is all that matters. I need to put a bullet hole in eddy's goggles still...

By using the layer commands, I was able to process code for an 80 MB rhino file. Pictures attached, overall plaque = 22" x 30" x 1.5".

As far as Rhino having a cam interface, I have been using rhinocam (a plugin) for a couple of years. It opens with rhino, data is saved into the rhino file. I personally consider it a part of rhino, although is is really visual mill running within. I tried madcam, and although it seems nice, the demo would only let me run 200 lines of code, so I will give it no further purchase consideration.

In the end, Rhino and RhinoCam are about a grand and a half. Best money I ever spent.

Brat,
Your reliefs look great for being done in Rhino. I know that relief creation and editing are no small feat in a triangle mesh environment. I wish Rhino was able to edit some of the full 3D scans (STL) that I have done...I can't seem to get it to break apart an STL mesh into control points...not sure why, got any ideas?

I do all of my relief construction and manipulation in ArtCAM. It is pixel-based (like ZBrush's 'pixol' based environment)...It's nice being able to actually sculpt 3D in software than be restricted to rail sweeps and triangle manipulation. You've done well with the tools you're working with!

Keep up the good work!

-Brady

The pictured work is by no means raster to vector images. Eddy was traced in 2d, then I manipulated control points, sweeping and patching surfaces, control point editing, and drinking coffee until 4 am. The model is actually quite sloppy, but with my 3 axis, the top is all that matters. I need to put a bullet hole in eddy's goggles still...

By using the layer commands, I was able to process code for an 80 MB rhino file. Pictures attached, overall plaque = 22" x 30" x 1.5".

As far as Rhino having a cam interface, I have been using rhinocam (a plugin) for a couple of years. It opens with rhino, data is saved into the rhino file. I personally consider it a part of rhino, although is is really visual mill running within. I tried madcam, and although it seems nice, the demo would only let me run 200 lines of code, so I will give it no further purchase consideration.

In the end, Rhino and RhinoCam are about a grand and a half. Best money I ever spent.

Those are very nice. One thing though is that you and I are on two totally different ends of Manufacturing. You create great Art Plaques while I create Parts for Aircraft, Automotive, Military, and Prototype Everything.

Both worlds are challenging but totally different. Gray wants to produce parts for fire arms which falls at my end. Now if he decided to do Engravings on the Stock that would fall at your end.

It would be nice to see Eddy Engraved on the stock of my 410, LOL. "Aces High"!!!!!!

Get Rhino4 and try that again. In ver4 you can directly work with meshes.

Also, there are plugin's for ver4 that automatically surface meshes and point clouds.

Brat,
Your reliefs look great for being done in Rhino. I know that relief creation and editing are no small feat in a triangle mesh environment. I wish Rhino was able to edit some of the full 3D scans (STL) that I have done...I can't seem to get it to break apart an STL mesh into control points...not sure why, got any ideas?

I do all of my relief construction and manipulation in ArtCAM. It is pixel-based (like ZBrush's 'pixol' based environment)...It's nice being able to actually sculpt 3D in software than be restricted to rail sweeps and triangle manipulation. You've done well with the tools you're working with!

Keep up the good work!

-Brady

Yeah, I'm betting on exaggeration on the part of BobCAD too. I'm up here in the automotive machining capital of the world (Michigan) and I know of no one who uses BobCAD. Not even a single shop that I've ever been to or used. Rhino on the other hand is not so looked down upon. The BobCAD website makes it seem like everyone uses it when in reality you've got to look long and hard to find any serious company who will admit to using it let alone use it at all.

As you said, it's great that hobbyists can have something to play with but come on, Rhino can be gotten fairly reasonably too and RhinoCAM also isnt a fortune.

Really? BobCAD couldn't give me even ONE professional within 200 miles of Philly, PA as a reference. BC is not suited for a professional CNC job shop. It is not efficient enough for the types of things than need to be created and toolpathed quickly AND reliably.
<SNIP>
To be fair, I am completely open to seeing examples of product components (real selling products) AND hearing from real professionals that use this software...just a few out of the 'thousands' shouldn't be hard to muster up.
-B

Hey Death Adder,:)

What's new? Have you ever tried SolidWorks 2007 backed by Mastercam X2? If you ask me that is one of the best Combinations around. I was scoping out the Pipe bending function at a friends shop. Pretty COOL Stuff!!!!.........:rainfro:

Well I have SolidWorks 2007 because I use SurfCAM but no, I haven't yet tried MasterCAM X2.

Well I have SolidWorks 2007 because I use SurfCAM but no, I haven't yet tried MasterCAM X2.

I haven't seen too much of SurfCAM. What are some of the Differences between MCX (not X2, haven't played with it yet, only got a peek) and Surfcam? I have heard rumors of Surfcam Charging a Yearly fee for extortion purposes. Is this true or is someone blowin smoke in the wrong direction?


Just currious is all.

I haven't seen much of MC so I dont really know what the differences are. But, you heard right: It's around $2500 a year for maintainance on 3 Axis SurfCAM. Don't pay it and kiss upgrades (even bug fixes) goodbye. That's a fine how do you do!

I haven't seen too much of SurfCAM. What are some of the Differences between MCX (not X2, haven't played with it yet, only got a peek) and Surfcam? I have heard rumors of Surfcam Charging a Yearly fee for extortion purposes. Is this true or is someone blowin smoke in the wrong direction?


Just currious is all.

That STINKS!!!!!!!! But then again, it isn't Crazy Expensive. I also heard that if you want to updrade and skip Versions that you have to pay for every version up to what you want. Is that true too?

Hey all. I'm surprised this thread is still going. I finely decided to get DesignCAD. Right now I'm trying to learn how to use it...once I figure it out, I'll get the CAM program that goes with it.

I should have my mill and lathe converted by this summer...hopefully I'll be able to make simple parts with it by fall :)

Gray

Hey all. I'm surprised this thread is still going. I finely decided to get DesignCAD. Right now I'm trying to learn how to use it...once I figure it out, I'll get the CAM program that goes with it.

I should have my mill and lathe converted by this summer...hopefully I'll be able to make simple parts with it by fall :)

Gray


Well Congrats on your selection. I hope you enjoy it.

Cheers!!

That STINKS!!!!!!!! But then again, it isn't Crazy Expensive. I also heard that if you want to updrade and skip Versions that you have to pay for every version up to what you want. Is that true too?

Well, ordinarily you get every version they put out so long as you still pay your yearly dues. If you lapse then you must pay all of the dues you lapsed on. For instance, if you wait three years then want to upgrade you must first pay the back dues (2500 * 3 = 7500) plus probably another year in advance for a total of 10,000 bucks.

Braidmeister:

I agree that Rhino 4.0 has more powerful surface editing tools. I love them!
With 3.0, you can certainly place points (using Osnap functions) at all vertexes, and then create a patch surface. I know this is tedious, but it should work fine.

By the way, I never work directly with mesh, or "triangles", I manipulate the nurbs surfaces. Once rendered or shaded, a polygon mesh is created that matches my surfaces. I believe that toolpaths in rhinocam are created using this mesh surface too.

What kind of scanner are you using? I am not the biggest computer geek, but it seems like you could edit the scanned file using MS excell to clear out the junk into a comma separated value chart, and import them into rhino using FILE-IMPORT-ALL FILES- (then select a txt file you created with MS excell. This will take your stl file into control points. Now, you can select them all, and create a patch.

Let me know if this helps.




Brat,
Your reliefs look great for being done in Rhino. I know that relief creation and editing are no small feat in a triangle mesh environment. I wish Rhino was able to edit some of the full 3D scans (STL) that I have done...I can't seem to get it to break apart an STL mesh into control points...not sure why, got any ideas?

I do all of my relief construction and manipulation in ArtCAM. It is pixel-based (like ZBrush's 'pixol' based environment)...It's nice being able to actually sculpt 3D in software than be restricted to rail sweeps and triangle manipulation. You've done well with the tools you're working with!

Keep up the good work!

-Brady

Brat,
Thanks for the tips, I'll give them a go and see how it works for me.

Excel is out as far as manipulating the data...which is typically 500Mb to 1.5Gb in size. It is a Laser CMM of my own design employing industrial laser displacement sensors. I can output points or wrapped data. Rhino chokes on both...ArtCAM is able to pull in either data set. I can output an STL from ArtCAM and decimate it to a size that Rhino can deal with.

As it is, the scans are excellent and there really isn't any cleanup to do on them. It's like you took a 3D photo of the subject. My issue at the moment is being able to transform the scanned data and add to it as a true 3D object, not just 2.5D as ArtCAM is only capable of...Imagine a full 3D head that was scanned and you want to use Rhino to put hair on it...(just an example, not what I need to do...I can add hair to 1/2 a model in ArtCAM...)I'll mess around with the tips you gave me and see how it works.

Thanks again!
-Brady

You probably don't want to hear this but gunsmithing is a highly skilled trade that includes a lot of knowledge and practice with different metals and a qualifed machinist to perform. I think skipping the manual part of machining will end up being a mistake. Your generation is a LOT more comfortable with computers, robotics and automation, but a CNC is only as good as the person doing the program and if you have never done it "by hand" you have no frame of reference. Things like cutting the lands on the inside of a long barrel with an accuracy and twists per foot that give the gun it's accuracy are not easy to do with a specialized machine let alone a standard CNC. A lot of the work is patiently filing a piece to a perfect fit (and knowing which pieces to file) and why it needs to be that accurate.

So....I have to ask. Do you have any time on a manual lathe making precison parts? Have you experienced the rolls of chips from a piece of high carbon steel and heard the "sing" of the cutting tool? How about setting up a job in a mill with the proper hold-downs. How about finding the center of an existing hole so it can be bored larger? Have you listened to the sound the rotary cutter makes and from it know instinctivly it's too slow/fast or cutting to deep or the bit is dull?

It's a little like learning to fly 100% using Microsoft Fight Simulator: The mechanics are there but the feel is not.

I am not here to discourage you ambitions. Consider though, learning the human-machine interface first. When you can build a precision firearm with your hands and a machine that is only hooked to you, then you can "feel" the nature of the metal and understand it sometimes will not easily bend to your will.

You probably don't want to hear this but gunsmithing is a highly skilled trade that includes a lot of knowledge and practice with different metals and a qualifed machinist to perform. I think skipping the manual part of machining will end up being a mistake. Your generation is a LOT more comfortable with computers, robotics and automation, but a CNC is only as good as the person doing the program and if you have never done it "by hand" you have no frame of reference. Things like cutting the lands on the inside of a long barrel with an accuracy and twists per foot that give the gun it's accuracy are not easy to do with a specialized machine let alone a standard CNC. A lot of the work is patiently filing a piece to a perfect fit (and knowing which pieces to file) and why it needs to be that accurate.

So....I have to ask. Do you have any time on a manual lathe making precison parts? Have you experienced the rolls of chips from a piece of high carbon steel and heard the "sing" of the cutting tool? How about setting up a job in a mill with the proper hold-downs. How about finding the center of an existing hole so it can be bored larger? Have you listened to the sound the rotary cutter makes and from it know instinctivly it's too slow/fast or cutting to deep or the bit is dull?

It's a little like learning to fly 100% using Microsoft Fight Simulator: The mechanics are there but the feel is not.

I am not here to discourage you ambitions. Consider though, learning the human-machine interface first. When you can build a precision firearm with your hands and a machine that is only hooked to you, then you can "feel" the nature of the metal and understand it sometimes will not easily bend to your will.

I tried to find the post this referrenced but could not. I will however comment a little!:)

I appreciate the fact you consider manual machining necessary to learning gunsmithing. I too believe that to be true but for a much different reason. From most gunsmithing applications a manual machine is much faster than a cnc. Time is the difference and if any craftsman wants to stay in business he had better manage the time well. No need to ask me how I know!:confused:

Your comment about rifling a barrel is somewhat inaccurate though. All handheld firearms that I know of has the twist rate of the rifling in turns per so many inches. I.E., 1:16 = one turn in 16 inches and is the standard for rimfire rifles. Accuracy has to do with so much more than just the rifling, but it is of course a very important part of it. The depth of the rifling grooves, the smoothness of the bore both before and after rifling. The lapping process is critical but nothing is more critical than the chamber, and that brings us back to manual machining!

Mike

You probably don't want to hear this but gunsmithing is a highly skilled trade that includes a lot of knowledge and practice with different metals and a qualifed machinist to perform. I think skipping the manual part of machining will end up being a mistake. Your generation is a LOT more comfortable with computers, robotics and automation, but a CNC is only as good as the person doing the program and if you have never done it "by hand" you have no frame of reference. Things like cutting the lands on the inside of a long barrel with an accuracy and twists per foot that give the gun it's accuracy are not easy to do with a specialized machine let alone a standard CNC. A lot of the work is patiently filing a piece to a perfect fit (and knowing which pieces to file) and why it needs to be that accurate.

So....I have to ask. Do you have any time on a manual lathe making precison parts? Have you experienced the rolls of chips from a piece of high carbon steel and heard the "sing" of the cutting tool? How about setting up a job in a mill with the proper hold-downs. How about finding the center of an existing hole so it can be bored larger? Have you listened to the sound the rotary cutter makes and from it know instinctivly it's too slow/fast or cutting to deep or the bit is dull?

It's a little like learning to fly 100% using Microsoft Fight Simulator: The mechanics are there but the feel is not.

I am not here to discourage you ambitions. Consider though, learning the human-machine interface first. When you can build a precision firearm with your hands and a machine that is only hooked to you, then you can "feel" the nature of the metal and understand it sometimes will not easily bend to your will.

I tried to find the post this referrenced but could not. I will however comment a little!:)

I appreciate the fact you consider manual machining necessary to learning gunsmithing. I too believe that to be true but for a much different reason. From most gunsmithing applications a manual machine is much faster than a cnc. Time is the difference and if any craftsman wants to stay in business he had better manage the time well. No need to ask me how I know!:confused:

Your comment about rifling a barrel is somewhat inaccurate though. All handheld firearms that I know of has the twist rate of the rifling in turns per so many inches. I.E., 1:16 = one turn in 16 inches and is the standard for rimfire rifles. Accuracy has to do with so much more than just the rifling, but it is of course a very important part of it. The depth of the rifling grooves, the smoothness of the bore both before and after rifling. The lapping process is critical but nothing is more critical than the chamber, and that brings us back to manual machining!

Mike

I am very ignorant when it comes to the manufacturing of Fire Arms, but always thought that the Rifled Barrels were Broached in stages with High Precision.:confused:

Is this true with cheap Fire Arms or none of the above??:confused:

Can you guys explain a little or show some pictures of what your talking about???:confused:

Thanks

BTW: I feel the same way as you about Manual Machining. You will never get a true feel for cutting metal unless you cut it manually. At least this applies to my personal experience with Machining. Feeds and Speeds according to Feel, Sound, and Chip Characteristics. (Milling and Turning)

Cheers!!!!!:cheers:

Hi Toby,

I am much more of an "expurt" when it comes to the wood and stocks, but have always had a serious interest in what makes fire arms work. I got in to competitive shooting in centerfire benchrest bt migrated to rimfire for various reasons.

A type of broaching is used in some rifling processes and is called a cut rifled barrel. It uses a very small single point tool that is pulled through the bore of the barrel blank while the machine is rotating the blank to achieve the desired twist to the rifling. The rifling consists of lands and grooves. The lands are from the drilling and lapping process and the grooves are what the broach or button does to the bore. Each groove on a cut rifle barrel will have many passes per groove so they are labor intensive.

A button rifled barrel is done somewhat similar but instead of the groove being cut into the bore, all the grooves are "ironed" into the bore and all are done at the same time. Same technique for obtaining the twist though.

Finally there is the hammer forged rifling process. This is exactly what it sounds like. They take a drilled blank of a given length, insert a mandrel that has the lands and grooves in it and then hammer the blank down to fit the mandrel.

Your question about "cheap" firearms using a particular process is not really relevant. The button rifling process is considered to be less expensive to do than a cut rifle barrel, but that does not mean it is cheap eithe in price or quality. Most of the world records set in the past two to three decades were shot using button rifled barrels.

Maybe this will get you started!:)

Mike

I voted Bobcad. I have v.21 and it was really easy to learn and despite the limitations it's been very useful to me. I have not tried Rhino, but I have looked into it and for some reason I've never been interested enough to bring myself to buy it + a CAM + any other Addons I might need.

I have tried demo's of other software like surfcam but when I try to use them I get lost. I just don't find them as easy to use. For the cost (that's the price after haggling with the sales guy) I don't think you can beat Bobcad for a fledgling company like ours.

I voted Bobcad. I have v.21 and it was really easy to learn and despite the limitations it's been very useful to me. I have not tried Rhino, but I have looked into it and for some reason I've never been interested enough to bring myself to buy it + a CAM + any other Addons I might need.

I have tried demo's of other software like surfcam but when I try to use them I get lost. I just don't find them as easy to use. For the cost (that's the price after haggling with the sales guy) I don't think you can beat Bobcad for a fledgling company like ours.

Have you looked at V2007 yet? BCC has made many improvements in the Tool Path Options.

Have you looked at V2007 yet? BCC has made many improvements in the Tool Path Options.
Just came in today. I elaborated more on it in a thread started by GBeaman "just purchased 2007BCC!" I beleave you know it, toby.

Just came in today. I elaborated more on it in a thread started by GBeaman "just purchased 2007BCC!" I beleave you know it, toby.

Yes, I remember:)

Have you had time to install it yet?????

Toby,

I have been trying to work with BCC2007 since I received it. I am Not happy with it. I do like the CAD side more and more as I use it simply because the modeling engine works better than V.21. However, I have not made a single usable tool path yet. I absoloutly do not like the detatchment of the CAM from the CAD that BCC2007 gives. I often need to manipulate the tool path after it has been generated. V.2007 won't let me do that. I also need cutting boundries like V.21 has available. I only need to cut one feature or area of a part at a time, and I never need to cut all the way down the side of a part (and through my vice). Also, my tool paths must fit on a 1.44MB floppy. I find it easier to draw or manipulate a 3D model in V.2007 then save as an .iges file and open it up in v.21 to generate usable tool path. The biggest reason I didn't ask for my money back is because V.2007 better handles the .iges files that my customer sends me than v.21 does. Had I not discovered that fact I would no longer have BCC2007.

I have had opportunity to discuss these and other issues with BCC tech support, but they always want me to send them example files and lists of problems and improvements that I think need attention. Sadly, I don't have the time to do it. I'm just too busy. This is my first time posting on the ZONE in 2 or 3 months.

I'm sorry to dissapoint you all, but BCC2007 makes for a decent 3D solid CAD program and one LOUSY CAM.

P.S. The funny part about the whole thing is every time I talk to someone from BCC they always rave about the tool paths and mention that I won't see much improvement on the CAD. It's completely the opposite. It always gives me a giggle :D

There seems to be a lot of mixed feelings about what they (BCC) did with the new version. I like the CAMMING but the CAD could have been done close to what V21 was.

I would have to say that if it weren't for the crummy GUI in BCC V2207 I would have never gone back to learning Alibre V9.2.

With the right guidance from Tjones This is what was made in the Free Version of Alibre Design Xpert. The Attachment is an Adobe Publisher 8.0 that comes free with the Xpert.

Cheers!!!!!!:)

bcc2007??? I am sure that the cam side is much better than the cad side... I have 21 and it's cad side sucks, and I can clearly see that the tree in 2007 is a GREAT improvment to what it was... Most people have a hard time learning any type cad/cam, mostly cam...

Tobyaxis... You should try Rhino....

bcc2007??? I am sure that the cam side is much better than the cad side... I have 21 and it's cad side sucks, and I can clearly see that the tree in 2007 is a GREAT improvment to what it was... Most people have a hard time learning any type cad/cam, mostly cam...

Tobyaxis... You should try Rhino....

Rhino to me seemed more for what you specialize in Pointcloud. I do Mechanical Parts. Besides Rhino is a lot more expensive than Alibre Professional.

I may even wind up switching my whole Software choice. It looks like Alibre backed by Visual Mill at the moment. $4800.00

Still looking for better deals on the CAM but there is a lot to research.:)

Rhino is suited for all feilds of manufacturing. It has the precision of any program and the ability to be more free.

I guess it's more what a person LIKES than anything... I use it to program my router, plasma, and mill... I am working on converting my lathe so I will be programming it too...

I would not trade for any software I have seen.

Rhino is suited for all feilds of manufacturing. It has the precision of any program and the ability to be more free.

I guess it's more what a person LIKES than anything... I use it to program my router, plasma, and mill... I am working on converting my lathe so I will be programming it too...

I would not trade for any software I have seen.

You sound like a happy customer Pointcloud:)

One quick question.

Does Rhino support assemblies? I always wondered about that seeing all the cool stuff on their website.

Assembalies like how? I am not sure that I understand?

Assembalies like how? I am not sure that I understand?

Assemblies like all the Parts in a Fishing Reel or an Automobile. You know LOL all the parts that complete a Functioning Piece of Equipment.

Sure and even animate it... If that is what you want then you should REALLY look into it...

On there site you will find a reel animated, a car ghosted, a ship (looks like it's over 150' long) all are detailed assemblies...

Look at these: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showforum.php?forum_id=12371

http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=174

http://www.cg-cars.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=24

http://www.rhino3d.tv/english/info/accessdenied.php (this site has movies, you will have to sign up though)...

Bongo is the animation plug-in, I love to play with it...
Flamingo does most of my renders, also a plug-in
Penguin also a rendering plug-in I have that does scetch like renders...

WOW your a Good Customer for Rhino LOL. I scoped their site and they have lots to offer but seeing that Alibre is closee to the way SolidWorks functions (so I have been told) I'd rather stick with them.

Have you created any new Fountains lately????

Cheers!!!!!

I have... But they are kind of on the back burner... I have a new client that is creating art for hotels, I have been quoteing all week.... He has 7 items that total 12k pcs... I will be working on this full time and working on the fountains as time allows...

Soildworks is really close to rhino too (read the commands list for both, rhino just does more with surfaces), I have helped some peeps here do a good bit with surfaces and stuff like that... The commands are very simular, but rhino is so versital simply becaue there is a plug-in for anything...

Check this link out...
http://solidsmodeling.com/main.htm

Maybe not a really good customer but I have been burned by others.... I will stick to rhino, there are some good releases on the way for Rcam. I understand full 5, and some more great toolpath choices...

Also rhino has record commands feature, which is really cool.. You can go back and review the commands..

I could go on and on and on and on with what all it does, but it sounds as if you have already made your mind up..

Well price and budget have a lot to do with it, but yes, Alibre is Great stuff.

Read this:

Just a note to all considering Alibre. background. I wanted to machine my own parts & ideas instead of taking to fabricator then throwing in my scrap box!
Learned drafting in junior high 3 years in 60's. So learned cad with autocad lite,then acad14 then turbocad(had a family could not afford upgrades) 6,v8 prof & 11 prof cad cam. Hf mill drill & rotary table then Hf 12x 36 lathe. Then Kent 9x 42 knee mill. Converted knee mill from ebay parts ( taught myself enough elec to build power supplies & such) went Galil route. Wrote routines with native 2 letter galil code. then learned about "G-CODE!!" Bought wingcnc started writing code. Whew! Had no idea.... Bought Turbo cad/Cam when it came out. Life was good. Making money now with my obsession. Wanted to get Autocad inventor. Stumbled upon Alibre free download. Learning curve. Bought Expert 9.1 for motion and analysis. Would then take to turbocad then write to wingcnc then try it out. Unknown to me but by buying expert came with upgrade to v10 with cam.Shocked, Stunned and Amazed. I have never had a new version upgrade from any software company. To me version 10 is just that a whole new product. Alibrecam is accessed right from part window. you can toggle between design explorer and cam with a tab button. Visualmill has flawless post for wingcnc ,canned routines, ramps everything I wanted tied to a parametric modeling software. The best. Period.
If I can use it anyone can.
Thanks Alibre & mecsoft finally a combination that works the way I do.

written by dmerrll in the Alibre Sub-Forum.

Will Rhino give you 1 free Maintenance Upgrade??? Like V9.2 up to V10 at no additional charge.

Not many do this.

1 free Maintenance Upgrade??? All Maintenance are free... Like V4 sr1 , sr2 and so on... Now V3 to V4 was like 295, but it is a different beast all together... In V3 there were 4 service releases... In the sr's there will be upgrades that are amazing...
And mecsoft is rhinocam...
I did the galil thing too... Pain...

I think that you can not make a statement that many professional don't use BobCAD. There are several 1,000s of professionals using it. You just have a preferance that is differant than theirs.
I am looking into purchasing a cad/cam setup. Talked to the crazed sales rep who also told me of the 1000s of customers. I asked for one in my area to talk to. He wouldnt tell me, so I am not interested in a CO. that doesnt support customers, but does support customers sales!.
Thats not a way to sell a product. I think the best software for most anyone is one that the company supports and doesnt continually harrass you to spend more on an upgrade. So don't start hooting and hollering about this post, it is just my opinion from my experience with a bobcad sale person.

I am looking into purchasing a cad/cam setup. Talked to the crazed sales rep who also told me of the 1000s of customers. I asked for one in my area to talk to. He wouldnt tell me, so I am not interested in a CO. that doesnt support customers, but does support customers sales!.
Thats not a way to sell a product. I think the best software for most anyone is one that the company supports and doesnt continually harrass you to spend more on an upgrade. So don't start hooting and hollering about this post, it is just my opinion from my experience with a bobcad sale person.

So what Software are you using now???:)

So what Software are you using now???:)
I am not using any. I am evaluating software to find one i like and understand.
I am setting up shop now, so i still have time to figure out what i want. I am not saying bobcad is bad software, I am just not interested in working with a secretive pushy salesperson. Call me crazy, but what sells me is SERVICE. so not to hijack this post, I am now trying rhino and rhinocam. I like artcam pro somewhat also. Not knowing enough about the cam side of things makes it more difficult to choose. My experience is with 3d max /autocad but not toolpaths. I am learning though.