We had Fadal Engineering do a test cut for us using their new Augusta control, otherwise known as the 104d.

Its pretty fast, has good compatibility with legacy Fadal routines, is supposed to be their new control on all the CNC line by early 2004.

Fadal has finally decided to address the serious deficiencies in their control designed in the 1980’s. That is 15 years ago!

The CNC industry should not tolerate any longer poor performance and high repair and component prices!

Why should we have to pay hundreds of $s for memory, keyboards, even the PC in an MP32 control option is 3 times what a PC would cost… And how about the price they ask for a floppy drive, you’ve gotta be kidding!

Is there any interest out there in discussing the limitations and solutions for this aging CNC control?

I’d be glad to help…

Scott_bob

Welcome to CNCzone Scott_bob!
Personally i don't know anything about the Fadal Control. It's an interesting point you make on spares, repairs to CNC controls.

Do you have knowledge on other controls? I think this can get a very interesting topic.....

Klox

About 1 1/2 years ago I was told Fadal was coming out with a new controller and it was supposed to be at WESTEC this past year, so its a good thing they are finally going to release it.

I would like to see them support the NURBS G code (G62.2 ?). My cam system will output NURBS and right now roughly 90% of my work coming in is entirely NURBS surfaces. For the most part my controller (-5) works fairly good, but when the toolpaths start to contain lots of simultaneous XYZ points on steep surfaces (especially "L" shaped), the machine starts to jerk and can't keep up with the programmed feedrate.

cadman

I have some experience...
28 years, ugh!
25 years CNC...

Mostly, Fanuc, Fadal, Allen Bradley, Bandit, Tree, Yasnak, oh a bunch more I guess...

But enough about me.
HSM is a revolution in our industry. It is being promoted not so much by machine tool builders at large, but by other high tech players.
End Mills or Cutting Tools have evolved to a state that currently they can go much faster than most CNC machines can go smoothly.
Let me stop here with this. What is meant by smooth motion control?
Automatic Feed reduction?
Fadals ansewer to this is to slow the feed at the end of every block of code. But this is only good when a sharp change in direction is next. Slowing the feed rate when there is not a sharp change in direction is just a waste of time. And in 3D machining, Hugh amounts of time...
In 3D, usually the code is point to point or linear, (but not always) and Fadal has done some work here to improve performance, but that should be another point.

I like the point that one guy on this site says:
1st you get it right, then you go faster...

Hi bob, err.. scott. ;)

I didn't vote because the option I would have voted for is not there. (I'll refrain from stating what that option would be). I've used fadals since the early '80s and I'm here to tell you that the controller is nearly the only thing I liked about them. The 'real' keyboard, the functions and utils etc.

'Rekd

what is the factor that:

"most" significantly affects High Speed Machining on a Fadal
HSM is most commonly defined as feed rates above what the Fadal is capable of delivering.

Feeds lower than 300 IPM would be not be considered HSM by some industry definitions. HSM is somewhat relative, because we all refer to processes that are faster than what has been possible to date on our own machinery. But I think that using the phase HSM when we are using feed rates in this lower range of the spectrum <300 IMP, deminishes the term HSM.

The term High Velocity Machining should definetly be reserved for describing processes higher than 1000 IPM. At this level there is much less discussion going on.

There are CNCs out there accurately feeding at "programmed" feeds from 1000 to 3000 IPM. Not on a Fadal...

I say "programmed feeds" because a good control with intelligent look ahead and feed optimization can be programmed at an optimum feed rate for the tool in use, and the control slows down relative to the angular change in dirrection. Like the Fadal does in point to point, only with a much higher degree of accuracy.

Using a .187 dia. Carbide End Mill. How fast can your Fadal mill a slot .250" x 1.000" and hold +/-.001 in 6061-T6 Aluminum say .2 dp?

Feed = ?

Using a .187 dia. Carbide End Mill. How fast can your Fadal mill a slot .250" x 1.000" and hold +/-.001 in 6061-T6 Aluminum say .2 dp?

On the Fadals I've run... about 15 IPM, and even then I wouldn't guarentee +-.001

:rolleyes:

Of course, things may have changed in the last 5 or 10 years since I've used them. ;)

'Rekd

ref:

Posted by Rekd on 12-09-2003 07:47 PM:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using a .187 dia. Carbide End Mill. How fast can your Fadal mill a slot .250" x 1.000" and hold +/-.001 in 6061-T6 Aluminum say .2 dp?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the Fadals I've run... about 15 IPM, and even then I wouldn't guarantee +-.001
***************************************************

That sounds just about right... On a Fadal the slot width could be held +/-.001 going NO faster than F15.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I should have described the end of the slot for this discussion better, it would have R.125 on both ends, so it would be oval, (G03 at both ends)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Slot length would NOT be +/-.001

Why?
Because the Fadal Control is not accurate within +/-.001 in circular interpolation at feeds higher than F40. Not even the New Augusta or 104d...

A CNC machine uses what is called the "feedback loop" to control the current position in a move as constantly as it is capable of processing. The CNC with the tightest feedback loop will be the most accurate; the loosest feedback loop will be the least accurate.

Let’s face the facts here; we all get what we pay for, right?
The low end priced CNC will not be as tight as the high end priced CNC.

Would any of the Lower priced CNC users out there disagree with this observation:

Accuracy of +/-.001 interpolated circles smaller than .500 in diameter or R.250
Feed NO faster than F15.
Accuracy of +/-.001 interpolated circles bigger than 1.000 diameter or R.500
Feed NO faster than F40.

Anyone perform Renishaw Ball Bar tests on your CNC to see why?
Renishaw identifies and rates the factors as to their affect on circularity…

By the way Rekd, what was that “other” contributing factor that you wanted to include in the poll?

Scott

Originally posted by Scott_bob
ref:

Posted by Rekd on 12-09-2003 07:47 PM:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using a .187 dia. Carbide End Mill. How fast can your Fadal mill a slot .250" x 1.000" and hold +/-.001 in 6061-T6 Aluminum say .2 dp?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the Fadals I've run... about 15 IPM, and even then I wouldn't guarantee +-.001
***************************************************

That sounds just about right... On a Fadal the slot width could be held +/-.001 going NO faster than F15.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I should have described the end of the slot for this discussion better, it would have R.125 on both ends, so it would be oval, (G03 at both ends)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Slot length would NOT be +/-.001

Why?
Because the Fadal Control is not accurate within +/-.001 in circular interpolation at feeds higher than F40. Not even the New Augusta or 104d...

A CNC machine uses what is called the "feedback loop" to control the current position in a move as constantly as it is capable of processing. The CNC with the tightest feedback loop will be the most accurate; the loosest feedback loop will be the least accurate.

Let’s face the facts here; we all get what we pay for, right?
The low end priced CNC will not be as tight as the high end priced CNC.

Would any of the Lower priced CNC users out there disagree with this observation:

Accuracy of +/-.001 interpolated circles smaller than .500 in diameter or R.250
Feed NO faster than F15.
Accuracy of +/-.001 interpolated circles bigger than 1.000 diameter or R.500
Feed NO faster than F40.

Anyone perform Renishaw Ball Bar tests on your CNC to see why?
Renishaw identifies and rates the factors as to their affect on circularity…

By the way Rekd, what was that “other” contributing factor that you wanted to include in the poll?

Scott

You're absolutely right, Scott. To do a circle THAT small with a Fadal would take an act of congress.. :rolleyes:

Have another look at the poll, in which I have now voted.. ;) (WoW, I tied it up!) My second choice would be the programmed tool path, as it would directly affect the functionality via Feeds.

'Rekd

Ref. (new entry in the Poll)…

A Different Controller/Machine

Response by,

Matt
CNCZone Community Director
San Diego, Ca

Your problem is my problem. Unless I have a problem with your problem. In which case we have a problem.


This is absolutely my point!
So, to ask again the Poll Question:

What is the most significant factor in High Speed Machining on a “Fadal”

Your answer is door #1 or CNC control right?

Remember the question is “on a Fadal”… You are absolutely right, that without either changing the control, in which case the CNC would no longer be a Fadal or, change the whole CNC, true HSM is not possible!

Ref.
HSM is most commonly defined as feed rates above what the Fadal is capable of delivering.

Feeds lower than 300 IPM would be not be considered HSM by some industry definitions. HSM is somewhat relative, because we all refer to processes that are faster than what has been possible to date on our own machinery. But I think that using the phase HSM when we are using feed rates in this lower range of the spectrum <300 IMP, deminishes the term HSM.


Is any body out there interested in a solution to this problem of doing HSM on a Fadal CNC VMC or HMC, or any other low end CNC machine?
There are solutions!

Come on, chime in folks…

The only way you’re going to get your favorite Machine Tool Builder to listen to your demands is by leveraging your opinion!
Is your CNC builder listening to you?

Best Regards,
Scott

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but I've got an idea.

Mayhaps you should re-phrase the question. As I read it, it is limiting me to a choice of what's already available on the Fadal. Perhaps a question like "What is the most significant change Fadal could make to improve/add performance for HSM" Or "What is the most significant 'limiting' factor in High Speed Machining on a Fadal"

Just a thought. ;)

BTW, are you a Fadal user, rep, engineer, lawyer or what? You mention you 'can help', in what ways?

'Rekd

Ref.
__________________
Mayhaps you should re-phrase the question. As I read it, it is limiting me to a choice of what's already available on the Fadal. Perhaps a question like "What is the most significant change Fadal could make to improve/add performance for HSM" Or "What is the most significant 'limiting' factor in High Speed Machining on a Fadal"
__________________


I'll try to improve the Poll Question, (If there is an admin looking, go for it, I tried but I don't have access even though I started the thread)
I like your suggestion:
__________________
What is the most significant 'limiting' factor in High Speed Machining on a Fadal
__________________

To your BTW, Qu.
Yes, no, yes, no
And I can only help by passing on my experience.

Would you or anyone else be interested in making your CNC Milling machine accurate in 2D or 3D contouring?
Matt, you are correct, you cannot get there with a Fadal control, old or new...
"There" means to me; true HSM or smooth accurate feed rates ABOVE 300 IPM for Aluminum, and smooth accurate feeds for harder materials 3-5 times the feeds possible on the lower end CNC machines out there...

Keep in mind that HSM means:
lighter depth of cuts at very high feeds, with better cutting tools and more RPM...
(very generally defined)
HSM is more a process, than a destination.

I'll give as much info as you want to hear.
Is anyone else interested besides Matt?

Regards,
Scott

I modified the question for you.

How long have you been, um... blessed? with using Fadals?

'Rekd

BTW, I also modifed the poll selections, and updated my choice accordingly. ;)

'Rekd

I finished my school training in 1976 at believe it or not, from San Diego City College under Mr Bell and Mr Dan... something or another.

It wasn't until 1987-88 that I started using Fadals, so 16 years...
They have changed very little since then... It was Fanuc, Yasnak, Tree etc bofore that...

How about that, I am a working graduate of the San Diego City College machineing technology system in the late 1970's, wow, small world... No regrets either, this trade has been good to me.

Hey thanks for updating the Poll question. Should be an interesting discussion as it goes on...

Regards,
Scott

check out the comparison charts over in HSM
http://www.cnczone.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=898&perpage=20&pagenumber=4

Scott_bob,
I'm in, send the file my way.
hardmill@mastercam-cadcam.com
We have a Yasda w/ a fanuc 16i and hpcc (high precision
contour control).

PEACE:D

I'd like to check it out also, although I don't have a HSM machine, I've got a 2002 VF3 and 4 2000 VF3's, I'm curious how they'll do.

'Rekd

Scott:

Your posts have a certain commercial tone to them as if you're selling something, but trying to get folks to egg you on rather than just coming out with it. How come?

Glancing at the test and the data you've posted, I don't see any constants but the program. Thus, speed and accuracy may both vary. That doesn't seem very scientific.

You may say that we are only testing BPT and that doesn't have accuracy, but the issue is then how the CNC uses that BPT. If, as many do, processing data does not require the accurate execution of that data, fast BPT may be quite misleading.

I once saw a high speed CNC that cut a 2" square so fast that the square turned circular. Your test is a circle, so there is no accuracy issue to it, but that overlooks the need for accuracy in the controls that are tested, potentially rendering the results pretty useless.

In my experience, results vary. High speed is relative to your perspective, your materials, your cutters, your machine, and perhaps most important, your budget. What is right for one individual or application may not be right for another. What is best might not be affordable or might strain the budget or financial resources available.

Fadal has long built a great machine value. Old and new Fadals can run faster and more accurately with alternate controls, including some retrofits. Reliability and service-ability may also improve or diminish with alternate controls. Needless to say, Fadal will continue to do their very best to make the best machine value possible in today's very competitive marketplace.

i like a good debate, just not with myself.

I don't have anything to sell, unfortunately, else a guy could make some extra dough.

I don't hold out much hope of getting anybody in the machining community to agree with me, as we are some of the toughest people to agree on anything. There has got to be easier ways to make a living than by selling technology. In this industry I'm sure you know smart guys who are just getting by nowdays.

I do want the machining industry to do well in our country, and that is what sometimes motivates me to spread some good news around, I think a lot of us these days could use some more of that.

When I get home I'll go into more detail per your comments...

Regards,
Scott

regarding statement from:
tschuett
__________________
Glancing at the test and the data you've posted, I don't see any constants but the program. Thus, speed and accuracy may both vary. That doesn't seem very scientific.
__________________

You're right about one thing, fast BPT doesn't mean anything without accuracy. The BPT process created by my friend does address this issue, by making his offer to bring his Renishaw ball bar, to measure accuracy. That would satisfy the scientific requirement. This also is why the BPT program runs a circle using X, Y points... Also by moving in a circle you can see backlash, and with the ball bar instrument you can measure velocity.

Did you know the Fadal control has no velocity feedback? That's a tachometer for a servo system. You cannot get good smooth motion if you don't control your velocity, you can't control what you don't measure...

BTW, I see our Fadals make shapes different from what is programmed every single day. That is exactly why I tried in vain for years to get our company to buy different machines, better ones. That is not going to happen, so what is another option?
Fix what is broken. The control on a Fadal is what is responsible for it's poor accuracy. I'll post a typical plot of a Renishaw BallBar analysis on one of our Fadal CNCs.

My friend, believe me, I have not overlooked the need for accuracy, in fact that is what has driven me to research any option to fix our problems. We make hundreds of molds each year, and besides the slow feeds we're stuck with, the accuracy is always at risk because we try to go as fast as we can, doesn't everyone?

tschuett, you mention seeing a machine cut a 2" square so fast that it turned circular. You must have been watching a Fadal, or a low end CNC like it. This reinforces my point. A good control would have given you a 2" square. If a control is programmed to move in a square, then it better make a square.

I gotta say concerning your last 2 paragraphs, I don't believe a shop like mine can afford to wait around for solutions to our challenges. We are facing cost downs from our automotive customers in the range of 5 to 15 percent every year. How are you going to keep automotive customers from going elsewhere. And it's no longer just the automotive customers, it's the aerospace customers who are dictating these cost downs as well. The good ol days are gone, I'm sorry to say.

Believe me when I say, if you wait for a low end CNC machine tool builder like Fadal to solve these challenges, you are going to go out of business. I had a chance to meet with Fadal Engineerings, Augusta R & D team recently. They were very frustrated with the absence of upper managements sustanined support for their development project. Funding cuts, shifted deployment dates, they had to endure canabalized R & D equipment as parts were needed to be used on a machine to ship to a customer. Well, as a customer we decided not to wait for them any longer.

Best regards,
Scott

Renishaw Ballbar plot

Renishaw plot analysis

Hi Scott,

I always feel sorry for a guy debating with himself :)

I'm in pretty much the same situation with my Shadow controllers, but am now in the process of converting to PC based cnc, in an effort to get an upgrade at an economical price.

From what I understand of servo controls, there is a definite limitation on how controlled "controlled" really is. The servo update rate in never anywhere near what the block throughput is, even with a modern Galil motion control card. So absolute accuracy is an impossibilty, as far as I can tell. The best you can hope to attain, (in my hillbilly opinion :D) is repeatability, not necessarily absolute accuracy. There are lots of tricks being used to attain some degree of accuracy, such as slowing down when sharp turns are coming up, but still the accuracy is a matter of how well tuned the controller software is, in relation to the dynamics of a particular machine.

It's nice to know there are other people out there who are willing to take the leap. I know I was a fierce Fanuc guy not long ago.

Like tschuett said in his post, there are serviceability issues to be concerned about when the radical solution of replacing the CNC control is considered. That must me settled. Any CNC control replacement must be repairable or what I call sustainable. Frankly, I can not believe that Fadal is still in buisness today, considering their quality. People still buy poor products thinking they are getting a good deal, I guess I do too.

But, when it comes to our CNC machining industry, global competition will require us to consider the more radical solutions. HSM and inovation is how the mold machining industry will survive in the US. Faster, more accuratly and cheaper not cheap in quality is where we have to go, or get out of the way!

No choice,
Scott

Scott:

A ballbar test of accuracy doing a circle on a point to point test should give fairly predicatable (good) results even with a control that allows mispositioning for high speed. It would be very possible to excel at your speed test appear accurate on the ballbar, yet allow poor results in the real world of detailed contours when attempting high speed.

Originally posted by tschuett
Scott:

A ballbar test of accuracy doing a circle on a point to point test should give fairly predicatable (good) results even with a control that allows mispositioning for high speed. It would be very possible to excel at your speed test appear accurate on the ballbar, yet allow poor results in the real world of detailed contours when attempting high speed.

Sorry, but those results are not good, if that's what you mean. Note that a balbar test is run at low feeds, thus scott's point comes across more abruptly and is more pronounced in HSM applications.

I hate to say it, Scott, but those results sux even for a Fatal. Oh well, better you than me I guess... ;)

'Rekd

That is ONE NASTY ballbar test. How old is this machine?

I used to work in a shop with several different brands of machines old and new. A 14 year old Rambaudi Ramatic 800 didn't look that bad running 180IPM IIRC. We also had a new Rambaudi RamCenter that would do a near perfect ball-bar test at 380IPM. A retrofitted 15 year old Makino and Toshiba VMC8 would also do a near perfect test on the ballbar test at almost 200IPM. But gave VERY different results in real world cutting at high feedrates. The Toshiba being the better of the two. The rtrofitted machines(with a Creative Evolution PC Based control) did add a lot of life to both. Added accuracy in high and slow feedrates. It's a band aid move, but more than paid for itself in the 1st year of use at a fraction of the cost of a new machine.

The Ball Bar test above is NOT from the BPT test program.
It is just an illustration of just how bad a machine can get.

tschuett said that what good is fast BPT if you are not accurate.
This is right! It is difficult to come up with a test program that addresses all the variables in good motion control. The BPT test just measures the controls speed at point to point motion, like "most" 3D contour programs.

If a CNC control cannot provide fast motion then it should not be considered for HSM. I mean by HSM, feeds above 300 inches per minute.

We have tested the Rubicon control on the comparison charts with the Renishaw ball bar and have gotten circularity or roundness at .0002 at F40., which a Fadal that is tuned correctly can deliver too. But the Rubicon can make that same circle, using the Renishaw ball bar running at F400. and be within .0004 circularity...

Try that with a Fadal control!

P.S. Rekd, In all fairness to Fadal, I did pick the worst plot I had from 4 years ago when we 1st started using a calibration service. This was before Fadal was using a laser to calibrate their CNCs for ball screw pitch error compensation. I remember when they used to come out with a 40" standard and use an indicator to move to each step, then write down the comp value at that point, then enter the comps manually.

Anybody else using both laser calibration and Renishaw ball bar to analyse and make corrections your CNC?

Regards,
Scott

attn,
Steve Mack

Your point is absolutely right! I have found that if your company won't listen to you when you recommend that the old CNC machines in your shop need replacement, they will listen to you when you recommend an upgrade to the CNC control.

From the users of the retrofited control machines that I have talked to, their service or maintenance costs have gone down, dramatically. How can this be true? If a CNC machine is smoother at motion control, more accurate, and able to use HSM lighter cuts at high feeds, then the CNC breaks down or wears itself out much slower than the OEM control...

An additional benefit of doing a retrofit is that when it comes time for buying a new CNC, guess what, the only kind of CNC that is going to be considered is one that is faster than the one you got.
The retrofitted CNC machine is able to accurately machine aluminum at feeds up to 500 inches per minute to within .002 and smooth 3D contour molds in RC40 steel at feeds above 100 inches per minute...

These feed rates are far beyond what a Fadal control can deliver.

Sincerely,
Scott

Scott_bob,
I personally have worked with Fadals, Mazak,Okuma,Makino, actually we have all of those in our shop right now. I keep watching you talk about HSM as being those feedrates over 300 IPM. I would really like to know when somebody is going to go 300 IPM in a chunk of 56 RC H-13. The whole concept of HSM is surely not defined by feedrate alone. Go to a Makino seminar on HSM and tell me how many times you see a mill going 300 IPM. HSM is a concept of how to attack material and remove it in a different fashion than with conventional machining. We all know Fadals are not High Speed machines but they do a pretty good job at drilling holes. So, that is what we use them for.

scott333

Thanks for your reply, I hope you voted in on the poll...

You're the kind of guy I would like to hear more from. You have both Fadals and what I call class A CNC machines (Makino, Okuma, Mazak).

To your point about HSM, I think I represented it this way:

Ref.
Would you or anyone else be interested in making your CNC Milling machine accurate in 2D or 3D contouring?
... true HSM or smooth accurate feed rates ABOVE 300 IPM for Aluminum, and smooth accurate feeds for harder materials 3-5 times the feeds possible on the lower end CNC machines out there...

Keep in mind that HSM means:
lighter depth of cuts at very high feeds, with better cutting tools and more RPM...
(very generally defined)
HSM is more a process, than a destination.

F300. for aluminum, feeds in harder material 3-5 times what is possible on your Fadal or CNC like a Fadal...
For us, our feeds cannot be much higher in the mold steel we cut than F15.

Lets see, that means what I am saying is you can replace the control on your Fadal or CNC like it, and get better more accurate machined features in STEEL at Feed rates of F45. to F75.
This is with a Fadal spindle limitation of 10k or 15k...

If you add a high speed spindle to your CNC you can get accurate smooth, gouge and overshot free toolpath at feeds like F150. in Mold steel Rc40 or even harder...

Try that on your Fadal that you use for drilling...
We are not so fortunate, we have to use the Fadal for the cavity too.

Regards,
Scott_bob

FYI,

I have uploaded a movie file (400 IPM inside pocket.avi) on the ftp site...
Its in the: High_Speed_Demos folder... Check it out...
This is a movie file with sound. It's big, so save it to your PC, then open it. I figure you gotta have sound when looking at HSM right?

This is a Fadal 6030 CNC with a retrofitted Numeryx control.
A 6030 is limited to 400 inches per minute as that is its Rapid Traverse Rate...
Material is 6061-T6 aluminum, .250 thick one pass thru pocket...
So that was 66% of the tools diameter, probably too much for production run...
End Mill is a 3 Flute TiAlan coated Niagra, the coating is not really needed as the SFM is only 982.
Chip Load per tooth is .013, Step over was 55% of the tool diameter.
As you can see the coolant pressure was nothing to write home about, this was a borrowed machine, borrowed holders so there is a lot of improvement to be found in this process...

F400. is the programmed feed rate during this machining. Notice the motion slows down sometimes, that is when an inside radius of .250 is being machinined. The dimensions after machining were within .003 with no spring pass. When using a spring pass (clean up cut), the surface finish measured Rms 85 with a profilometer.

We just finished running a job on our Fadal with the OEM control, we were using a 3 Fluted, 1.250 diameter Sandvick Inserted End Mill roughing the majority of the aluminum material on a part 1” x 18” x 26” down to about 1/8” thickness. We were running at the maximum programmable feed rate of the machine of F250. The depth of cut was just .130, any more and we stalled the spindle too much. The point here is that this tool in aluminum can go twice that fast on feed rate…
This was just S9000 (2948 sfm) and F250. (.009 chip load per tooth)!
In the movie file the 3/8 carbide end mill was feeding 144% harder on the chip load than this Sandvick inserted end mill...

Solution; take off the Fadal control, retrofit the CNC machine with a control that can go faster.

Or get out of the way of those who are (going faster)…

Sincerely,
Scott_bob

Now we're getting somewhere. I'm not a big fan of retrofit mostly because we have a Lemoine system and I believe it to be a joke. I am how ever a believer in technology and I do believe it would be possible to make a Fadal a HSM. But is it cost effective in the long run? Will a retrofit Fadal take that constant beating?

Holy cow that thing was smokin'

What ftp sit is the demo on

Check out the ftp site link at the top.

just my luck i can't get in

Interesting that scott333 mentioned:

__________________
I do believe it would be possible to make a Fadal a HSM. But is it cost effective in the long run? Will a retrofit Fadal take that constant beating?
__________________

A Fadal CNC is not as heavy duty as what I would call a class A machine but it does have box ways and liquid cooled ball screws... Not too many CNC mill mfg'rs are doing this these days.
Box ways do generally hold up better than linear ways.
I'll bet the Yasda and Makino owners can say a lot about their machines long-term accuracy...

A Fadal 10k spindle holds up pretty good... 20 horses on 4020's and 30 horses on 6030's...
For HSM in steel (feeds above F100.) you need another spindle…
There are some great options out there for that, but be warned, you get what you pay for...
I really like the benefit of having one main spindle for 90% of the tools you're going to need to run (below 10,000) then save that auxiliary spindle for the 10% (although longer cycle times, above 10k)...

Have you seen some of those high speed machining centers with the little bitty spindles, really weak looking...

We have a Daewoo DMV500 with a Fanuc 18m control.
If it's up to me, we'll take the Fanuc control off, put on a Rubicon and have a really, really nice machine.

On this machine we would be capable of smooth accurate, true HSM in aluminum up to F1000. (That’s 1,000 IPM)
Mold Steel up to F100. with the 10k spindle, put on a 40k spindle and you do the math...

Now why would a guy remove a perfectly good Fanuc 18m control and put on a PC based control you ask?

It's that much better, and we can no longer afford NOT to...
Let's see, customers are demanding lower costs, better accuracy, quicker delivery.

Anybody else think technology is the answer?
Oh yah, the cost. At our shop rate the ROI on this retrofit is 3 months.

Anybody else like that kind of pay back?

Sincerely,
Scott_bob

Scott_Bob,

Do you really need a super powerful spindle for HSM finishing? If you are barely raising a dust finishing a hardened mold, then you would be better off to use a relatively dinky spindle for that, with its cheaper overhaul costs? It would be nice to have both, as you said.

HuFlungDung,

No, but it comes in handy...
HSM is lighter cuts at higher feeds. This reduces the load on the spindle and the machine.
__________________
scott333 wrote:

Will a retrofit Fadal take that constant beating?
__________________

I find that it is a challenge to change the programming approach to much lighter depth of cuts. This is one of the keys to successful HSM. Less load on the spindle means I should not be redlineing the spindle load meter.

This will have to change when we get our HSM control (due early Feb.)...

Scott_bob

Scott_bob
that was a good show at 400 ipm

too all,

Let me ask you these questions:

1) Did you vote on the Poll?

2) Please view the 400 IPM movie file then: What feed rate could a tool, twice the diameter of this 3/8" End Mill be programmed?

3/8" End Mill F400. = .013 chip load per tooth
3/4" End Mill : (what do you think)?

Please keep in mind that I'm talking about "programmed feed rate". That was the only programmed feedrate in the 400 IPM movie file... A good HSM control automatically adjusts the feed rate depending on the toolpath geometry...

Sincerely,
Scott_bob

Scott_Bob,
I use the HSM concept every day when I say will the Fadal take the beating I'm not talking about the spindle because you are right you should never really see a dramatic spindle load, but what I am talking about is the constant change of direction in small areas and highly detailed part parts. The constant acc. and decel. is what I become concerned with.

scott333,

I agree with your concern... Fadal CNC machines are high maintenance. Fadal Engineering recognized this early on, and they have developed their business plan around this reality. At the Westek Machine Show in L.A., Have you seen any other CNC machine tool builder put a repair truck in their both? I have not been to IMTS in Chicago. I wonder if Fadal does the same thing out there?
Fadal wants to sell service, as much as they want to sell CNC machines. Buy a Fadal, and you're gonna see that truck more than you'd see say the repairman for your Mori Seiki...
Look at the rapid development of the Haas CNC machine tool line compared to Fadals. Haas focused on variety, Fadal focused on service, and I hear Haas did not. Which is better, I don't know, I've never run a Haas. They are both low cost options in the same quality category of CNC machine. We all get what we pay for.

Our customers don't care about our machine repair costs, they don't care about how long our CNC machine will last. They do care about the quality of their parts and whether we deliver on time. I am not saying that we as professionals should not care, all I'm saying is that quality and speed and therefore cost need be our focus not how long we can make our machines last. No customer is willing to pay for that! It's the customer that keeps our doors open right?

High Productivity VS High Speed
High Speed is typically considered to be cutting motion of 500 inches per minutes or higher. This level of machine tool performance must be designed in from concept. High productivity is all about making the machining process as efficient as possible. This can be accomplished in a number of areas. Many machine shops are currently cutting materials at 15 to 50 I.P.M. when their machine tool is capable of cutting speeds from 200 to 350 I.P.M. (or more) without any redesigning or mechanical modifications. A good CNC Control retrofit will allow your machine to perform at its maximum designed speed while enjoying all the benefits associated with PC based controls. The retrofit solution will save you the huge expense of purchasing a new machine.

Many PC based CNC control users report lower repair costs, better tool life, less wear and tear on their CNC machines. A real win-win situation.

Sincerely,
Scott_bob

Scott_bob
Quote
"The retrofit solution will save you the huge expense of purchasing a new machine."
I agee with you,if it is a complete retrofit an example is
not changing the lead screws to ball screws, or not replacing
the spindle drive from ac with fixed gear speeds to varable
speed. and also making sure that the have controled spindle
orintation.

fredj

Fredj,

Do you have a Fadal?

Yah, the PC based control retrofit I'm referring to is meant for a lower-end machining center. I'm not talking about someone who has a modified manual mill or home built machine.

On the subject of the Fadal CNC machining center (VMC) the control is the Achilles heal of the machine. If a shop is willing to take a calculated risk, then there are solutions to fixing what is wrong with this machine, by replacing the control.

I'd say all of us who use Fadal VMCs would love to purchase new more expensive CNCs but not all of us can afford to.

Let me just finish with this.
Can we much longer afford not to repair an automation tool, that should be running in automatic mode, 50 to 80% of the work day?

Remember the old adage: If it's not broken, don't fix it.
Well folks, The old Fadal control IS broken, it's time to fix it!

Sincerely,
Scott_bob

Scott_bob

Yes we have 2 here they are so bad is all they seem to
be used for is drilling and taping they are not used as mill
the way should be I am not sure of all the details of why
not.
The reto I was taling about was on a devleg k model
Lucas boring mills.
Devleg was retroed with the Heid TNC 310 a year ago
Lucas retroed with Dynapath Delta 20m about 5years ago
Both times the retro's where incomplete (IMO).
All I'am trying to say is if money is going to be spent on an
retrofit do a complete job so you get your moneys worth.
From what I have seen its like buying a new truck and you
are going to put the runing boards and mud flaps on next month
it will never get done.

fredj

Anyone,

I wonder about the 2nd question I'm asking in post #42:

What feed rate could a tool, twice the diameter of this 3/8" End Mill be programmed?

Are these feed rates unbelievable to you?
What would you say would convince you that these high feeds are possible on a CNC machine like a Fadal?

I know I could not believe it, till I saw it...

Sincerely,
Scott_bob

While I won't share with you the results of the BPT test on my 2000 model HAAS, (it was pretty bad), my 2002 model ran it in 6:04, with the display set to the Alarm page so no resources would be wasted in displaying the code as it executes. (This has been an issue for me in the past on other controllers.) Then, for pewps and chuckles, I ran it in Prog Dislpay mode, so it displayed the code as it ran, and it ran in 6:00. Go figure. :rolleyes:

This is a VF3, 40 tool side mount turret, without HSM. (There's prolly about 300-400 pounds of fixturing on the table, not sure if that will affect anything)

'Rekd

What about that service?

This data has been collected over 2 ¼ years...
How long does your CNC machine go before it needs service?

More data on BPT performance...

This CNC Control comparision is based on performance during execution of a high speed BPT test program. BPT or (Block Processing Time) is a constant value, and is representative of cycle time performance. BPT or (Block Processing Time) is a constant value, and is representative of cycle time performance. All these CNCs have "newer" AC Digital Servos, except the Numeryx or Rubicon Control on a 12 year old Mazak with "older" DC servos (in 3rd place), and also a 17 year old Leadwell CNC mill (in 1st place)...

This BPT test program has been run on all these CNC machines and the cycle time and therefore average feed rates are shown. This program is point to point (like most 3D programs), the span length is only .0005 so the control is choked down to what is called it's terminal velocity. There is no big change in direction so no algorithm should slow the feed rate. The fastest CNC control in this comparision can only acheive F40. because the points are so close together...

If you make parts with 3D contours, then you have to consider upgrading your control.

we have that new fadal here(104d). i've been running "test part" on it. all kind of problems. what can we say it's a beta. one good thing about it is i can run the feed in the 100's and still get a good finish no overshoot at corners or tight areas. we only tested it with 3d programs no 2d at this time.

pronc,

would you send me an e-mail?
Fadal would not give me a list of 104d users before they offered us this CNC, so I could not contact anyone using the control already.

At least we could compare notes and help each other...

To all,

Well, this thread is just about tapped out, I guess...

With over 1,000 views and just 11 votes in the poll, that's a 1% participation. What we have here is a failure to participate. Come on, 1 guy out of 100 is all we can get to vote on this poll?
If anyone cares, I will be in direct communication with Fadal Engineering on these issues, and will be advising them, as a long-term customer. I intend to prove to Fadal that they have been focused on the wrong details on their machine.

Come on guys, take a stand, vote!
Express an opinion! Anything, bring it on...

Fadals new machine and control got delivered today...
Interesting, they could not get their control to work with their own pallet changer. So, because they promised us a pallet machine, they had to purchase and integrate a Midaco pallet changer instead.

The guys on the machine shop floor don't like the Midaco. Actually they hate it. (Bad experience on another Fadal)...
Maybe "comfortable shoe syndrome", you know, that old pair of comfortable shoes get worn the most.

At least the Midaco has a pallet system that clamps the pallets to the table... Fadals are not clamped to the table...

Looking forward to next week,

Please, Vote in the Poll!!!!

Scott,

Have you tried to cut anything over 300ipm on the new Fadal? The part i cut over 300ipm didn't come out good. We're doing some testing to see what's the maximum feed we can go with the machine and still get the good result. i like the computer control though. we actually see win 2000 booting up. it has 80 gigs hard drive. we don't send program to machine. we copy it to the machine. cool heh?

Hey Pronc. Open that controller up and get yourself a long IDE cable. hook up a CD RW drive and you can swap those huge files on one disk, also backup the hard drive! It WILL eventually crash and can be replaced for 100$ if you are backed up vs. 2k$ if you are not.

You can also slide a wireless PCI card with a remote antenna (100$) on the backplane and have wireless internet upload download.

pronc,

Fadal 4020 with Augusta 104d is not assembled yet, we are connecting power today, should be running by Tues. March 16th, 2004

We did a test cut up at Fadal Engineering a few months ago.
They did not make good parts then, and I don't think that has changed yet either. I'll let you know...

Scott,

we ran the augusta machine head to head with the 4020 we have in here. the run time on the old fadal is 3 hrs 6 mins. the new fadal is 4.5 hrs. but the part came off the new fadal is extremely good. no tool mark, the finish is excellent. the part came off the old fadal was no where near as good as the new machine. there was tool marks. we used the same tool, same program. same everything.

pronc,

The new 104d control machine took 45% longer to run?
Same feed rates?

Any chance you can give me a phone number to call your company?
I could sure use some help with evaluating the Augusta control.

3-4-2004

Fadals new machine and control got delivered today...
Interesting, they could not get their control to work with their own pallet changer (according to one story) So, because they promised us a pallet machine, they had to purchase and integrate a Midaco pallet changer instead.

The guys on the machine shop floor don't like the Midaco. Actually they hate it. (Bad experience on another Fadal)...
Maybe "comfortable shoe syndrome", you know, that old pair of comfortable shoes get worn the most.

At least the Midaco has a pallet system that clamps the pallets to the table... Fadals are not clamped "down" to the table...

Looking forward to next week,

3-19-04

2 weeks now with a new Fadal 4020 with the new Augusta 104d control and a Midaco pallet changer.

To this day, the machine does not run!
The best personnel that Fadal could possibly send have been here and tried...
I don't have to say what I think about this machine, you all know from my previous posts...

Just wanted you to know that the disappointments are not just my own but the guys who run the machine...

Scott,

Same here. The rumor is already flying around that we're not happy with the machine.

3-24-04

It's up to 100% Rapid traverse now...
Seems to be in production now, waiting on feedback from shop floor on cycle times...

My bad, it's up to 100% Rapid on the rapid traverse switch but, the fadal tech set the maximum rapid traverse rate at 50%, and that's just the rapid traverse rate. Believe me when I say that as bad as the machine is at rapid traverse, it's worse in feed motion...

I see you can get a new Fadal with a Fanuc control. I wonder why...

Obviously this CNC machine is gone from our shop floor. I suppose the silver lining on this cloud is that now we have moved away from the company standard "Fadal" brand. Where that Fadal / Augusta / 104d control machine sat, sits a brand new Mori Seiki NV 5000 Alpha B / Fanuc 18i

Mori “factory built” 2 pallet changer (22 second chip to chip)
40" in X, 20" in Y, 20" in Z
20,000 RPM Integral Spindle (no gearbox or belts)
1,653 Inches per minute Rapids, 1,653" IPM Feeds
30 Tool side mounted (3 second chip to chip)
Ai Nano high speed contouring control
Ethernet server, right now we use RS 232 at 119k baud rate
CNC machine alone weighs in at over 15,000 lbs (at least 4,000 lbs more than Fadals 4020)
Estimated ROI on the additional investment over the cost of new Fadal: 6 months.
For us, this CNC machine is more than 40% faster on average cycle time performance.

What I am looking forward to most is not seeing the repairman in here, every 3 months…
Well, now that I wrote that out, I think what I won’t miss is; the poor quality parts coming off the machine the most. On the other hand, what I am really jazzed about is the fact that programs will work as expected, the 1st time. I’m sure that we can count on more orders because our quality will improve, as well as our on time deliveries. Maybe the accountants will finally believe us. After all this time struggling at quality and delivery, the reason for disappointment has not been our fault, but the machine tools we had to work with…

What a relief,

Oh, btw I sure wish more of you had cast a vote in this poll... After all, less than 30 votes out of 5,000 views? You're not afraid to take a stand are?

How do i get to know Fadal G-code control? Can any one help?