Do you sharpen drill bits by hand on a bench or pedistal grinder?

Yes I do it all the time!
No, they never cut right!
Sorry, I don't know how to do that!
Its better to throw them away!
No, we have a drill sharpening machine!
What's a drill bit?

do it all the time, or at least did until i made my drill sharpening jig. Hand sharpening of twist drills seems to be one of points of delineation between those who really know what they are doing and and those that don't. It shouldn't be that way though, its just not that tough to do. It does take some skill vs just plain old knowledge, but that will come quickly with some practice and everyone should learn how, its a basic shop skill. with a drill point gauge, nicely dressed wheel and a spare 3/8 bit, long before you grind your way through that bit you'll have the hang of it!

....... its just not that tough to do. It does take some skill vs just plain old knowledge, but that will come quickly with some practice and everyone should learn how, its a basic shop skill. with a drill point gauge, nicely dressed wheel and a spare 3/8 bit, long before you grind your way through that bit you'll have the hang of it!

Mr Mcgyver I could not disagree more!!!! :D I have demonstrated the procedure to, and tutored in drill sharpening techniques, many, many people. There exists a percentage which I put at around 20% that just never get the knack. It is like any other acquired skill, some people pick it up almost naturally, some will get there over a variable time period with persistence and practice and some will never get there.

At today labor rate and the fact that you can never really grind a drill point with both flutes cutting at the same time unless you use a comparator. The cost to grind a drill in other than a home shop or to be used in a manual machine is not worth it for a 3/8 drill. As a note I did tool grinding for 10 years and can split point. But unless there is no new drill a regrind will only be use if it the last option.If your a job shop I can see why you would, but a manufactor would not was the time Boston shop rate $95h/60m=$1.58/min x 5min(regrind time)=$7.50 what the cost of new?Buy a dozen at a time and send out for regring when you have many to do The shop we send to charges $2.50/drill under 1/2 and that is with a split point

When I was young my Dad (machinist all his life) tried to teach his dumb arsed son how to do it. However, I could just never quite get the hang of it. Well many years have passed (along with my Dad) and a friend (Mentor) got me to doing it in 15 min!

Being out in the country, I can't just run down to the nearest supply house especially on a Sat. or Sun. when I break the cotton picken drill. So this skill is handy to have for those times as well as when you need a different point for some specific material to drill a couple of holes and finish the project. No matter how many drill you try to keep as backup, there are times you NEED to have the skill!

If there one area that we as a trade have lost it is the manual tool grinding of both mill and lathe with most shop going to insert tooling the young guys just don't have the opportunety to do this much and it's a skill as Bubba said we need at times

Mr Mcgyver I could not disagree more!!!! :D I have demonstrated the procedure to, and tutored in drill sharpening techniques, many, many people. There exists a percentage which I put at around 20% that just never get the knack. It is like any other acquired skill, some people pick it up almost naturally, some will get there over a variable time period with persistence and practice and some will never get there.

forget 20%, did you know half the people out there are of below average intelligenc? :D

Geof, or shall i call you Colonel Pickering, :) A sad portion of that 20% maybe people who just don't have the capacity to learn, and a still sadder portion might not want to learn, but i maintain that most of us, if we puzzle out the shape of a well ground bit, the motion we'd have to give it across the wheel to obtain that shape and a way of measuring (and understanding why) the lip length and angle, could be taught. next thing you know we'll have wager going 'the rain in spain......"

Lakeside i see your point for production, but for commercial jobbing, maintenance, toolroom or home (as you point out) it's neccessity - a skill that would be beneficial to acquire, most probably have it except for many of the home shop guys. I mostly use the T&C grinder now because drills sharpeded with it are so accurate, but thats a luxury few have and and mostly drilling isn't a precision op (oops there's another pandoras box) .

i sharpen large drill by hand , i ve seen lots of guys who can sharpen a drill then blow it when the try to split point it , i can t tell you how many times i ve picked up a drill and someone has ground across the cutting edge leaving a negative rake at the most critical spot on the drill , which is at the point , i don t know how these things cut sometimes

i don t know how these things cut sometimes
shear & horse power

...Geof, or shall i call you Colonel Pickering, :) ....... but i maintain that most of us,....... could be taught.

I have been called a lot worse than 'Colonel Pickering' so I will not quibble.

Regarding your other point in your first post you said "everyone should learn how" with which I disagreed; (does my grammar come up to a Higgins' standard?) now you "maintain that most of us......could be taught".

I will respectfully point out that 100% - 20% = 80% and I think most of us will agree that 80% is most of us. Which is probably the first time Pickering and Higgins agree :D .

ahhhh but my dear Colonel Pickering, everyone should and most could, the two are not incompatible. its splitting the point that we are having difficulty with :D

in my opinion and experience that there is only a small percentage of machinists who do things properly in the shop ,be it stupidity or laziness ,
this is what makes us professionals , not everyone can do it ,

Most bench or pedistal grinders do not have wheels with keen sharp corners, the kind needed to do a nice split point! Also the position of the drill on the wheel of a pedistal or bench grinder is very awkward for seeing what you are doing! So for those shops which have a basic surface grinder available for such tasks, the results are usually better and easily done not to mention they usually have a light within reach!

I was fortunate to have had a good teacher in highschool metal shop, he had me sharpening everything!

Eric

As Lakeside, Geof, Widgit, Dertsap, and others pointed out that drill point sharpening is a must. Personally I think I was doing it wrong for many years. Either poor equipment, being rushed all the time and not taught right from the get go. Geof a few weeks ago sent me a PM on how he was taught drill sharpening and it's tops. So many people do things so many different ways that as luck would have it I was born in the era. I tried Geof's method and low and behold it took less time (when I finally got it right) not to mention very accurate. For me that is difficult because when I was young I had an accident which left three digits on the Left Hand in pretty bad shape. Usually a little duct tape can keep it from shaking too much. All I ever want is to be a good Machinist. Thanks for the Tip Geof. :cheers:

BTW: Geof could you PM me on split point drills :o ?

http://www.oceanavenger.com/video/drill-sharpening-tutorial-ocean-penetrator-512.wmv
http://www.oceanavenger.com/video/drill-sharpening-tutorial-ocean-penetrator-256.wmv


http://www.oceanavenger.com/drill-grinding-tutorial-video.htm#new





Drill Dr. videos:
http://www.genext.drilldoctor.com/content/view/21/38/

I have no problem sharpening my bits by hand, and do it when necessary. They seem to cut, pretty well. I know they are not perfect, and I am not willing to invest the time to make them perfect. But I can revive a dull bit alright. When you need a bit, you need it now.

My dad, who was what we call a "fitter and turner" had me sharpening drills as a young kid.
To me it's a bit like riding a bike, you don't lose it.
He would say "it's a feel thing".
He would say the same when I was using a drill press or tapping a thread.
Taught me to sharpen lathe tools and cut threads.

Now I know my skills won't "cut it" in a modern production machine shop, but around the farm or in the
shed fixing things I am very glad my dad took the time to teach me these things :p

Thanks Eric,

The Videos are excellent. Drill Doctor looks like an economic choice. I've always seen them in Enco but didn't think they were any good. Plus a lot of people say they aren't any good. This goes on the wish list :D

The other drill grinder looks a bit pricey but that in the shop would be a great investment.

As for those who voted to just throw them dull drills away, they should sell them on eBay, its a perfect place for dull homeless drills!

On second thought, send them to me!

Eric

I don't do it any more, we have a drill/tool grinding dept. but I think every "real" machinist should konw how

In a production shop, drill sharpening should be a last resort as most have mentioned.
I have had several people in the shop teach me how to sharpen drills, and I am now getting good results. For me, it is only time to sharpen a drill if we are out of that size or I am using a special drill and we don't have any sharp spares. This is different at home of course, I will sharpen them all.

In a production shop, we should not have to be sharpening drills, our tool guy should keep up on the orders so that we don't have too! Then the dull drills can be sent to someone else to mess with.

My drill sharpener was used alot when I was a one man shop and had the time.

Now its just a fail safe for the dip dunk employee that fails to tell me when we have 5 drills left, so I can order more.

Don't know how many times someones walked up to me and says "hey boss were out of this bit/tool" usually after 5:00pm and the tool is unobtainium and a job stopper!

oh happy times! :D

thats usually when its time for the grolsch or moose drool that I was saving for a special moment! ;)

:cheers:

As for those who voted to just throw them dull drills away, they should sell them on eBay, its a perfect place for dull homeless drills!

On second thought, send them to me!

Eric

The first time I sharpened a Jobber it was a good Stubby in about 45 minutes about 10 years ago. Too short, Ooops! :D

... Don't know how many times someones walked up to me and says "hey boss were out of this bit/tool" usually after 5:00pm and the tool is unobtainium and a job stopper!....

A truly competent boss foresees this type of thing early in the day when there is still time to obtain the required tool. :stickpoke

A truly competent boss foresees this type of thing early in the day when there is still time to obtain the required tool. :stickpoke
A truly competent manager places competent people around him at lets them do the job. Some of the best shop that I have seen the manger haves a bussiness Degree not engineering Degree

A truly competent manager places competent people around him at lets them do the job. Some of the best shop that I have seen the manger haves a bussiness Degree not engineering Degree

Most places have no real management. Unless the boss is a Machinist and started the business from scratch. In big shops Managers pass the buck to the guy on the left, then he passes it on to someone else etc. Bad business practice in my opinion. Only true experienced bosses have good shops with good management.

.... Some of the best shop that I have seen the manger haves a bussiness Degree not engineering Degree

Well I have neither so that lets me out.

You may not have a degree from a collage, but you have common sense which is something a degree can't provide

You may not have a degree from a collage, but you have common sense which is something a degree can't provide

Lakeside I couldn"t agree more. These days common sence isn"t so common. How is the driving in your area. Here in NY if you get from Point A to Point B with out getting run over your lucky ;) Boston Mass I heard is not much better.

. How is the driving in your area. Here in NY if you get from Point A to Point B with out getting run over your lucky ;) Boston Mass I heard is not much better.
we worry about tunnel failure and tunnel flooding. not bad for $14 billion. The iron workers must have been using dull drills and boston drivers are well know for there skill behind the wheel. I think that why they call us Masholes

we worry about tunnel failure and tunnel flooding? not bad for $14 billion. The iroin workers must have been using dull drills

So teach them how to grind their own drills ;)

A truly competent boss foresees this type of thing early in the day when there is still time to obtain the required tool. :stickpoke


Damn!

Right through the heart! (flame2) aarrrrgg!


Of course in all fairness to me, I never said I was a good boss, just a successfull business owner! (at least for this month ;) )

You may not have a degree from a collage, but you have common sense which is something a degree can't provide

I do have degrees just not in business or engineering.

Some of the best shop that I have seen the manger haves a bussiness Degree not engineering Degree

i dont buy that
a boss should have a full understanding of his business , if not he has to rely on staff to be doing quoting purchasing etc , if someone dosen t have any idea of what it will take to make the parts , or if the tooling or machines are capable of doing the job , tool wear, material costs ,setup time , run time
how do you quote that if you have no idea , other than to trust an employee to do this , and what do you do when this employee decides to open his own shop , taking his contacts (your work ) with him

dertsap I was refeering to large company not jobshops or sign makers or cabenit makers all those guys have to watch everything

I just thought the following quote from a different thread might be useful information to have here in case anyone can't view the previous videos.

Step one; turn the bench grinder on. :D That is the really easy part.
Look closely at the drill and note the cutting edge is a straight line.
Hold the drill so that the edge you intend to sharpen is facing up and parallel with the shaft of the grinder and very close to the wheel; NOT touching yet!!!!
Imagine a radial line drawn from the center of the shaft to the cutting edge of the drill and project this line out for about the length of the drill.
Because the cutting edge of the drill is parallel to the shaft of the grinder the drill and imaginary line will form an angle that depends on the point angle of the drill.
Now imagine you are looking from the side; the centerline of the drill itself should be below the radial line by around 3 to 5 degrees. This is what starts your initial clearance angle on the cutting edge. 'Looking' from the side is necessary so you 'see' the projection of the radial line onto the drill centerline.

So far things have been easy; now you go into imagination overload but first a little explanation.

If you simply brought the drill into contact with the wheel in the position it is currently held the cutting edge would be ground okay but further around there would be insufficient clearance; the 'heel' of the drill would rub. You need to be able to grind heel clearance.

Now imagine a line that runs parallel to the cutting edge of the drill but which is located about 1/4 to 1/2 the drill diameter back from the edge and about 1/8 to 1/4 the drill diameter below the level of the cutting edge. You are going to rotate the drill around this line with the cutting edge moving upwards.

Naturally if you just did the simple rotation the cutting edge would rotate up and away from the grinding wheel so it is necessary to move the axis of rotation down and closer to the wheel simultaneously with rotating the drill around the axis. This is the hard part; it is difficult to describe other than to say the cutting edge of the drill performs a sort of 'scooping' motion. The radius of the the scoop and the depth of the scoop determine the heel clearance on the drill but if you scoop too far you hit the opposite cutting edge against the wheel and destroy its cutting edge.

And once you have perfected this for one cutting edge you do the other exactly the same.

Thats a very "in depth" discription of how to hand grind a drill! but remember PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!

Most bench or pedistal grinders do not have wheels with keen sharp corners, the kind needed to do a nice split point!

Eric

Hi Eric,

A buddy of mine made up a wheel once that has corners as sharp as you want them and it works suprisingly well for small delicate tools. Take a circular piece of particle board about 6 inches, attach it to a motor running at a reasonable speed (I'll leave it to you to decide what a reasonable speed is), true it up with a rasp and file, then, right before sharpening anything hit it with a bit of course sharpening compound (stick form works best).

You can actually make several and go right through the different grits. In his case, after this wheel he jumps right to a felt wheel.

One trick is to reverse the motor so that the wheel is spinning up (from the point of view of the person sharpening), that way youir not going to catch the wheel with a sharp edge and get your hands pulled into it or send the tool flying end over end.

Just let me say, this is all bull+++t really. I've been a machinist for some 35 years and if a close tolerance is required you just can't rely on hand grinding, it's just not reliable. For open tolerance (0.3 mm) then yes maybe. Close tolerance work drill grinder every time

Just let me say, this is all bull+++t really. I've been a machinist for some 35 years and if a close tolerance is required you just can't rely on hand grinding, it's just not reliable. For open tolerance (0.3 mm) then yes maybe. Close tolerance work drill grinder every time

For that type of close tolerance work I use Seco Carboloy Solid Carbide Drills. TiN Coated 140 deg. Split Point for exotics and 135 split point for softer materials other than Aluminum. 118 spit point for Aluminum 2,6, and 7000 series. The drill finish is like a reamer finish and you can hold .0005 on the diameter all day with the right machining conditions feeds and speeds.

No hand grinding for these drills.

Just let me say, this is all bull+++t really. I've been a machinist for some 35 years and if a close tolerance is required you just can't rely on hand grinding, it's just not reliable. For open tolerance (0.3 mm) then yes maybe. Close tolerance work drill grinder every time

Perhaps in the hands of some people a drill cannot be sharpened to cut within about 0.002" of size but it can be done. And when you are talking drilled holes with standard HSS bits anyone who thinks they are reliably getting much better than that even with a new drill is dreaming.

Yes it takes time and a drill grinder is faster but it is possible; I was doing it about 44 years ago.

Perhaps in the hands of some people a drill cannot be sharpened to cut within about 0.002" of size but it can be done. And when you are talking drilled holes with standard HSS bits anyone who thinks they are reliably getting much better than that even with a new drill is dreaming.

Yes it takes time and a drill grinder is faster but it is possible; I was doing it about 44 years ago.


Too bad you didn't work with me, I have sharpened .040 cobalt drills using a long slender stone under a microscope all day long, as they were getting .0002 tollerance in each 304-SS part the CNC's were drilling!

I have stoned a slight radius on the outer points of hand sharpened drills and made them actually cut undersize!

For twenty years, I wore an eye-loupe clipped on to my egeglass frame, as everyone would constantly ask me to sharpen their tools! Having a nice set of diamond plated files, and assorted stones in my toolbox, was a necessity in the places I'v worked!

The hardest thing to sharpen is those damn one lip carbide engraving tools, as one slip and the point is toast!

Eric

Perhaps in the hands of some people a drill cannot be sharpened to cut within about 0.002" of size but it can be done. And when you are talking drilled holes with standard HSS bits anyone who thinks they are reliably getting much better than that even with a new drill is dreaming.

Yes it takes time and a drill grinder is faster but it is possible; I was doing it about 44 years ago.
So Geoff, you think you’re so clever. I can sharpen a drill in less than a minute using our drill grinders, unless it’s a big drill bit say 40 mm dia. and above, which takes possibly 2 minutes. Now I’m talking about repeatability and very quick turn around because in the airbus industry of which I work we cannot afford to have one, scrap, and two, unreliability and if you say you can grind 100 drills in say 2 hours’ by hand and they all cut size FIRST TIME, well I’ m thinking you must be Clark Kent

So Geoff, you think you’re so clever....

Nope, check: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5146&page=5&pp=15

Originally posted by The Puma Man (quoting didn't work)

So Geoff, you think you’re so clever. I can sharpen a drill in less than a minute using our drill grinders, unless it’s a big drill bit say 40 mm dia. and above, which takes possibly 2 minutes. Now I’m talking about repeatability and very quick turn around because in the airbus industry of which I work we cannot afford to have one, scrap, and two, unreliability and if you say you can grind 100 drills in say 2 hours’ by hand and they all cut size FIRST TIME, well I’ m thinking you must be Clark Kent
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Nope, check: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5146&page=5&pp=15


Geof is clever, wise, and cool :p

I am Honored to be able to visit a place with members like him, Widgitmaster (Eric), LakeSide (Mike M), Tjones, Gandalf (Wolfgang), MetLHead (Scott), Ger21, Huflungdung, GenGuy, CarbideCraters, Miljnor and so many others. I've made a lot of good friends here.

We come here to Help and be Helped, not to Knock eachother.

And if I sound corny.......GOOD!!!!!!!

Pumaman,

Take it easy Dude!!!!!!!! (wrong) This isn't a compitition!!!!!!!!

Thanks tobyaxis!

I Agree, the reason for this poll is to inform others, not to compete or compair!
This fourm is superior in every way, and I will continue to share ideas, knowledge, and my experiences with others freely!

In the past I have worked in shops where I felt a dumb as a box of rocks, and in other shops I felt superior and under paid! Everyone's knowledge level and skills are at different strengths, and it has been my experience that anyone can learn if the desire is present in both the apprentice and mentor! A good example was the massive factories during the wars, where everyday women were doing amazing jobs on machines and in foundries while their men were getting killed on the front lines!

Well, the war is over, and we are now at peace !

I see this thread is a bit old, but here goes.

My dad, a toolmaker, taught me to sharpen drills by hand about 50 years ago and it has served me well. I mostly use a drill doctor now but there are problems with it, like setting the original holding position as different web sizes produce vastly different results.
Anyway I'm not interested in discussing Drill Doctor, but I am wondering if there are plans out there for a good quality, home built drill grinder. I'm a hobbiest machinist, so time is plentiful, money to buy a used grinder is not. (shipping et al)

The cheapies, like Sears, seem to use the right principals, but lack any kind of weight or solidness. Would it make sense to use the geometries of those units to build a sturdy unit? But then they won't narrow, will they?

Small bits are really cheap so there's no need for tiny sizes, but I might like to sharpen a 1-1/4" rather than pitch it.

Thanks,
Jerry

My apologies Geoff I thought you were knocking me in the answer you posted to me!!

Would it make sense to use the geometries of those units to build a sturdy unit? But then they won't narrow, will they?
Small bits are really cheap so there's no need for tiny sizes, but I might like to sharpen a 1-1/4" rather than pitch it.
Thanks,
Jerry

Why dont you try making one Jerry and post a build log so others can give info, suggestions etc etc. I cant try myself as I dont have the necessary eqpt yet.

i like to sharpen my bits i learned about 5 years ago from this 75 year old man i thought he was full of s%*t but i tried it and have done my bits ever since

Hi all, the question is how many drills and how often to sharpen. To sharpen and gullet a drill by hand is an aquired skill. I learned that over 40 years ago. If you just dont have the time to stop and sharpen then a dedicated drill sharpener is the way to go, but for the normal general everyday useage one of those gadgets that attach to a bench grinder work well. You can build your own as they're relatively simple.
I sharpen 1/2mm drills with a small hand honing device on a diamond lap, and get accurate results every time with correct lip length and point angle. You can't even see the point of this size, so I use a 10 X jewellers loupe. I had to drill 316 stainless with a 1.2mm drill going through 7mm deep, and resharpened after each drilling.
If anyone wants a design for drill sharpeners, from 1/2mm diam to 2" diam + that would take only a few hours to make and cost little, I'll supply a sketch.
Ian.

Ian, is the design similar to the venerable "Potts" grinding jig? never got around to making it (learned how to do it by hand & have a T&C grinder now) but seeing competed ones it always seem a lot nicer that those $19.95 ones you buy.

Love to see the design!

Jerry

Hi Mac, yes the Potts type is the principle involved. The design For this type came from the Model club I used to belong to some years back, and one of the guys drew up one and had it published in our club Magazine. He used his own interpretation and came up with a very simple but easy to make item. It required a metal plate under your bench grinder to make a firm base, and a bush attached to the plate so that the drill jig is firmly presented to the wheel. I've yet to make one as it does make drill ginding in sizes above 3mm easy and accurate. It wont handle small drills below 3mm, too fiddley due to the nature of the set up. I made the other drill honing thingy to do all those small drills down to .5mm when you can't even see the end of it.
I'm about to build a small t&c grinder from bits and pieces I've got. Without one your stuffed when it comes to end mills and slot drills going blunt on you. The trouble with designing machinery is you get carried away with specifications that just seem to grow and grow untill in the end you've set the world on fire and never get to make it.

Hi all, when I learned the mystical manooverin' of the wrist and elbow that is required to sharpen a drill, commonly called "The drill sharpeners fandango", it wasn't at the "coal face" so to say. It was one afternoon with a 1" drill and a stationary grinder. Once you get the knack of the rotate twist and drop the end bit, it all comes easy. Then you switch the grinder on and mark the end of the drill with RED marker, and lightly do your thing. If you've got the hang of it, then just lightly touching the drill to the FRONT, not the side, never the side, anything but the side, you should see a light pattern of grinding marks across the whole of the cutting face as the grinding wheel touches the drill while you rotate it and drop the end a bit. It is of the utmost importance to say that the grinding wheel should be freshly dressed, otherwise you'll just get the worn face of the grinding wheel superimposed on the drill, and you can forget about gulleting a drill if the edge is rounded.
The other point is when you present the drill to the wheel it should be above the centreline of the grinding wheel, about an inch above so that you get the back off angle at the start of the grind. The drill will be parrallel to the ground at this point. You MUST use a drill point angle gauge. If you dont have one, make one from a bit of sheet metal. Without it you just can't judge accurately enough the two angles. I've seen some people measure the lip length with a 6" ruler to judge centrality. The most accurate way is to lay the drill on it's side and rub the point against a vertical piece of chalked metal and see if the point is central. S'easy! The whole point of the exercise is skill. if you want to be recognised as a skilled craftman then know your stuff. Here's another one for another time, grinding a screw cutting tool bit for cutting left hand two start threads, internal. Really seperates the men from the boys allright.

Hi all, just been thinking about the problems with grinding drills when the existing grinder, with it's well used wheels between redresses, is the only one available. Buy another one, a real cheapie, hobby model, 6" double ender from the local home hardware supplier, $50 or so, Put a medium grit wheel on the left side and an aluminium oxide cup wheel on the right side, and only use it for doing the drills.
The cup wheel with it's fine edge will make thinning the point so much easier, and it wont break the bank.

At my NTMA school, the first thing we do on the shop is they taught us how to grind down 1/2 x 1/2 x 2 inch steel into lathe toolbits which later on the training year we use them on the lathes to make our other projects. But current job I have right now, they use nothing but carbide inserts, which kinda sucks going through all that burning finger pain. But now when the time comes that the engineers summon me to make their part, I sometimes need to make a custom cutting tool, so all I do is get 1 carbide insert and grind the crap out of that instead :)

I Was never "taught" drill grinding but given a very large box of very badly abused drills and shown a pedistal grinder, Some hours later i could grind a reasonable eadge to a drill and it would cut, Now i know engieers who have had many years experance who sadly ask me to regrind there drills.

I would aggree that a minimum of 20% just can not and will never be able to regrind a drill.......split point well i can give it a go but i wont say it good..

I unlike most was taught machining from the ground floor. Vertical mills, lathes, grinding, heat treating, metalergy, etc... I think that the art of hand grinding drills and lathe tools is almost completly lost. I am 31, out of the last 10-12 guys I have hired ranging from 20-60 years old not 1 could hand grind a tool. Get out your machinery's handbook, a good pedestal grinder and take the time to learn. In my shop we often have to match up to glass threads, look in J&L and try to find a tool for that. Many times you can not take the time to order a special drill bit, end mill, or lathe bit, even if it does exist.
THATS WHAT A GRINDER WAS MADE FOR.


Excuse the grammer, I am better with handwheels and push buttons.

I am looking for a Potts type grinding jig I see that you have made something similar would it be possible to pass some sort of drawing or plan on to me?

Sorry,
I do not know what a pots type jig is. The point I was trying to make is that a steady hand and a thoroug understanding of how the cut takes place is lacking from todays machinists.

I agree with you 100%. Some people will never get it. The poll is asked to those that are or should be Machinists. If you can not grind a drill or a tool bit How dare you call yourself a Machinist

I am 69 years old and I have hand sharpened more drills than you want to know about The enquiry is meant for McGyver however I did not know that sarcasm was the order of the day seeing that I specifically asked McGyver:rainfro:

I am looking for a Potts type grinding jig I see that you have made something similar would it be possible to pass some sort of drawing or plan on to me?

kokelol, mine isn't really similar to the Potts and plans aren't done yet (number 682 on the todo list) but i did take lots of pics. the links are in this page, wasn't sure how to copy/paste them. works well, but needs a surface grinder or T&C grinder.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19623&page=2

I'm a weekend warrior and can grind drills reasonably well, but as a weekender will never have a pro's experience level....then again my faceted grinds cut to a a thou or two, better than a hand grind imo

Potts plans may be available from some the UK model engineer suppliers

Hi Koke, Here's a few scans of two drill grinding fixtures.
They are of the same design, but just made a bit different.
If you want to sharpen really small drills, about 1/2mm or so I've got another drawing or two and a photo.
This type is based upon the "wishbone drill sharpener", which was on the market in the late 50's.
Ian.(Ou Kaapenaar)

Thanks for your input.Some people drive a train then call themselves engineers Some operate a sewing machine and are called machinists Some hand grind a few twist drills then call themselves machinists. Some have never published or contributed to any article or books, yet they ask the arrogant question like (how dare you call yourself a machinist ) My books are accepted text books for Technical Colleges here. As for quotes by HENRY FORD, he also said that he does not know everything that is why he employs engineers,machinists etc. Mr POTTS was a great MACHINIST in the same catagory asPhillip DUCLOS and GUY LAUTARD. Surely you have heard of them.
Here is a quote from another great man
YOUR ARROGANCE REFLECTS YOUR TRUE CHARACTER
Handlwanker only the THANKS part is for YOU (DANKIE TOTSIENS )PRETORIA

This quote is by ME

could you please e-mail me at bvorster@webintact.com as the plans you posted are too small to read and cannot be enlarged Tnx Bert

Tnx for the reply. Whenever you get down to the drawings, Iwould appreciate a copy. Even if there are costs involved. Bert

Hi fellas this is my first post . i really appreciate you all guys for sharing your knowledge .I had benefited from it so many times thanks all ...I had the problem with drill grinding for a long time . it never comes correct to me. i managed it by always having some spare drills. things was going good till i changed my company it was a small company had not much tools in stock .....boy you have to grind to survive there....and on a friday i brought a pedestal grinder and started practicing in home ...two days i got the knack..it is very simple all we need to know is how the chisel point should be and the relief ..... you find a way of doing both in a single motion ...just a days practice ....

Good on ya Viny, we knew you could do it.
I hope you are using the FRONT of the stone and NOT NOT the side.
There is a natural inclination for some people to want to attack the side of the stone.
Once you've worn a nice groove or two in it, the life of the stone is more than halved.
If you start the grind at 1" or 25mm above centre the back off angle comes naturally, almost automatic.
Ian.

I really enjoyed your copies of the Geoff Oakes grinding jig.

I have a low cost drill grinding jig that "looks" similar. The big difference is that mine does not have the indexing feature. With this indexing feature you can ensure that both sides are ground symetrical to the axis.

My current jig uses a "catch" on the front to set the drill bit square to the mechanism. There is play in the mechanism and every time you use it it's just a teeny weeny bit different.

I like my current grinding jig. It does a good job. It brought my collection of 20 - 30 dead drill bits back to life.

The Oakes design is on the next level. It's a project that is a perfect project for my skill level and will be useful for decades to come. It turns out I have all the chucks needed from a dead dremel tool and a dead drill.

:)

Heck even if you are gonna sharp it on a drill grinder, if some fool has badly mangled it I think it is quicker to whip it into shape by hand, then shine it up purty on the drill grinder :-). I have done large drills on a belt sander :-) or a disk sander :-).

Knowing how to hand gash an endmill is a nice skill to have too :-)....takes the same kind of a steady hand.

Bill

Hi Rancherbill, it just goes to show you, there isn't a tool out there that hasn't been made in some form or other before.
The principle remains the same in most cases, but the trick is to design it so that it will work better, or is easier to make.
It just occured to me after reading the previous posts that the Potts type drill grinder jig uses the side of the wheel, which is not a good practice, but can be used to advantage when the need arises.
When I've got a bit of time I'm going to have a look at how a broad faced cup stone, mounted on the bench grinder, will work for the application of the Potts type drill jig.
In all cases, where a drill grinding jig is being used, it must be firmly mounted so that there is no lost movement between it and the stone.
To enable this, the grinder should be mounted on a steel plate, and then the jig won't flex away from the stone face.
I like the aspect of the Deckel SO tool & ctr grinder, which if you look at it properly in the case of lathe tools, is just an angulated work holder that pivots around a round shaft, and stays in the same plane.
Before anyone gets hot under the collar at the "just" part, it is still a simple guided plane but very reliable and well made to stand up to the grinding dust and day to day grinding requirements.
The ability to present the tool to the stone precisely and advance a thou at a time, and always at the right angle is the answer to a maidens prayer, but the price of a Deckel, $US1000 second hand or more, is a bit off putting and one of the reasons that professor Chaddock designed the Quorn T&C grinder for the home builder and user.
Which comes down to having a firm base, with no slop, to enable repeat performance to happen.
No matter how proficient you become at hand grinding tools, even the simplest grinding jig pays dividends in accuracy and time saving.
Ian.

i am the only tool grinder period out of 12 employees sad part is most are older than me

I still have the drill gage I made as an Apprentice. After I made it they gave me a bunch of drills to sharpen. Then I had to drill holes, then they checked them for size, straightness, finish, etc. Also learned how to do a lot of things that seem to be unheard of today. I set up my sine bar to check an angle and the Inspector remarked that it didn't look like a very accurate way to check it, why didn't I use a protractor and a magnifying glass if I really wanted it accurate. :D

I can and have on many occasions hand sharpened tooling and have even made my own tooling out of tool steel...But.
Not sure i agree that a machinist should know how to hand sharpen drills or tooling.
It is a dying skill and anyone that can do it should be commended,but for most of the modern machining industry all it does is make you more appreciative of what you have.
A real machinist knows the metal he works with, and has the ability to choose what tooling,feeds,speeds,coolants,and machines required to make an end product as close to what the customer wants as possible, and in as little time as possible without sacrificing quality.
And the most important part..he takes pride in his work.
Being able to hand sharpen drills is nice,but not required to be a good machinist.
I like to hunt deer...but i'm not gonna chip a hunting knife out of flint rock to dress the deer.

I would be willing to bet that MOST people that think it is unimportant cannot do it nicely, and the reverse is true also :-).

What if we modified the question to ask if a good machinist should be able to sharpen a drill with a drill grinder ??


Bill

Well, I've seen a lot of situations where the deskilling of the workplace is taken to such a degree that someone can walk in from the street, never seen a machine tool in his/her life and six months later is a "fully qualified", I kid you not, machinist.
I heard an amusing story at the waterhole the other night, a guy applied for a job as a skilled machinist and when given a test asked, "where's the green button I have to press?".
It seems that the term watchmaker is now someone that is capable enough to open a watch and replace the battery.
Strewth, my brother in law is chief cook and bottle washer at the local greasy spoon cafe, but that doesn't give him cordon bleau capabilities.
Getting back to the drill sharpening skills, if you can't sharpen a drill and you call your self skilled, then you won't rank with the professionals who can when you're put to the test.
I don't care who you are or how long you've been hacking metal, if you're mechanical skills are lacking in any department then you're second rate at best, especially those that proudly express their inability to master the fundamental skills and disciplines of engineering.
We've now got a generation of green button pushers that only have to know which green button to push to make a particular tool do a specific job.
Ian.

I agree with Handlewhatsit and if you want to call yourself a hunter then make your own bow and arrow and stalk your prey like a true hunter did a few generations ago.

I would say that only half of the people that say they can....can actually hand sharpen tooling...Only about half of those can do it right.
Many times i see people claim to be able to sharpen drills and i have to inform them that it isn't supposed to look like a pencil.

If i wanted a machine shop to make me an engine block..I drop off a block of steel..The machinist takes that block and mill it,drill it,bore it,hone it,grind it,line bore it,decks it.
In the end that block is perfect...I could care less if he hand sharpened the drills or any other tooling he used,he's still a good machinist to me.
The end product and the knowledge to get there is whats important.

....If i wanted a machine shop to make me an engine block..I drop off a block of steel..The machinist takes that block and mill it,drill it,bore it,hone it,grind it,line bore it,decks it....


A good machinist would probably tell you a block of steel is not the best material to make an engine block out of.

A good machinist would probably tell you a block of steel is not the best material to make an engine block out of.

I know..i was just trying to make a point.
Making and sharpening tools by hand is a good skill to master,i don't disagree with that.
But there are much more important things to being a machinist.

Why in the he** would I want a guy making top dollar to sharpen drills when I could send the whole lot out and have them resharpened for a buck a piece, or buy new drills, and my guy could be making parts at $60 an hour. It would be like making lathe tools instead of buying inserts! I think the old timers are justifying there skills, but we have to be progressive to make money work smarter not harder. BTW I've never sharpened a drill by hand Why would I? Just to prove I can?
Joe

Dear Joe, I know a guy who just wakes up in the morning. makes a phone call lasting 30 secs, and earns twice what I earned in a month, then he goes back to sleep till mid-day.
Last week he asked me to take him up to the hospital for some heart mnedication because his car wouldn't start.
Turns out the battery was flat.
I said,"wine chew getta new battery?" He just said," someone's coming to fix it".
He preffered to get on the phone to get someone down to fix-it whenever it stopped running.
I'm all for not getting your hands dirty but thats going from the sublime to the rediculous.
I hope the guy who earns $60 an hour can keep doing it, with a lack of basic fundamentals he's going to need it if the going gets rough.
Up to a point you are right about not doing it the hard or maybe the old way.
When you live in a perfect world then the best way is the only way, cost doesn't come into it.
I would no more expect a highly skilled brain surgeon to know how to sharpen his own sharp bits when nowadays they are all throw items anyway, prepacked, sterilised and untouched by human hand.
In the perfect machine shop the best way is the only way, and the tooling would all be pristine, unused, brand new without a nick or a burr, waiting for the call to produce the perfect hole to microns every time, with a tool life that made scrap parts and down time negligable.
I would venture to say that as long as I have a vent in my trousers the perfect machine shop will never exist, no matter how up to date our present technology is, due to the fact that there is a cut-off point when it doesn't pay to be perfect.
The customer will only pay a certain amount, and is not sympathetic to a cost structure that has a blank bottom line.
To sum it up, in Uk in the '80s where I worked, we had a chap who had worked for a number of years in Germany.
His total experiance was with preformed tooling and throw away carbides, toolstore maintained and issued to drawing requirments.
We were all issued with a set of drills to 12mm diam when we started there, and he couldn't shapen a tool to save his life.
He informed us that no one in a German workshop ground their drills by hand.
So we just showed him how anyway.
I like the idea of the perfect workshop where everything is bright, shiny and pristine, and you get whatever you want just for the asking, but I accept the reality of the moment and go prepared to face any challenge.
As for to-day, the finger that pushes the button rules the world.
Ian.

.... I think the old timers are justifying there skills,....Joe

Well of course we are, because we have them! We're not just a bunch of green button pushers. :D

I have spoken with many many co-workers that could not run a thread in a lathe, yet proclaimed themselves to be artistes at the trade of machinist.....in fact may could not run a lathe PERIOD....and yes they were green button guys, and many many of them had zero idea what the cnc program on the screen meant other than.

T01 M06 (SAFE START BLOCK FOR T01) being where you started T01 to run from there. They had no desire to learn more, and would proclaim to all and sundrey how GOOD they were at the trade. Some of these guys COULD sharpen a drill, with a drill grinder...maybe even an Oliver drill grinder :-)...BUT one example did not know how to change tool offsets, so as he sharpened the drill that was munched by sand inclusions, he simply made a program edit to make the drill go deeper so it went thru the part......so when we came in on days the drill was starting to feed 1" above the workpiece.

Talk about the basics, we had one guy who was a radial drill operator, decent fella, but he couldnt READ....that really played heck with a QS audit when they asked what "Safety Related Componant" on the blueprint said, he told the Auditor "I don't know, I can't read". We were slow for a couple weeks and they had this fella paint all the trash drums, 55 gallon drums, he painted them safety yellow, and then made some nice stencils that said "TRASCH", and painted that nicely in black on 20-30 drums.

Bill

I think the old timers are justifying there skills,

Hey now...i never knock the oldtimers.
I have learned alot throughout the years from"old timers".
You'd be suprised at what problems you'll have that will just ruin your whole day and an "old timer" will walk up and fix it in a minute.
Ever have a chatter problem and your whole day is spent trying 200 different ideas and the "old timer" comes in on second shift and runs good parts from part one?

Hey now...i never knock the oldtimers....


It's okay. It's like growing up on a farm...there are always the little puppies running around yapping at your heels. They grow up and calm down after a while. :D :D :D :D

I been sharpening drills by hand for over 40 years, and I started out because I HAD to!! :)

We've got 3 drill grinders, and one I happen to rather like that does a good job....yet I still do a lot of hand grinding where I need something slightly different that isn't built into the machine's capabilities. Like kissing the edges for a smooth finish, or stoning the faces for better chip break up or longer life.

Sometimes it's just plain faster and easier, and I can't split the point on most drills within a minute or so.

No, I ain't perfect, and no, I'm not as good as a fresh new drill. Tell ya what though, a good eyeball calibrated drill point is something to be proud of.

Have you ever made airplane parts? GE has a specification for drilling read it, it is detailed down to coolant and holes drilled per drill after they reach their max holes drilled you must mark them and put them in a controlled (locked) area. I'm sure if you're making oilfield parts or any commercial parts it doesn't matter if the point is not on center but sometimes it does. Fly safe
Joe

It's also the reason why Boeing Surplus has so many tools for sale, and good condition ones at that! Think about GE for a second, they are deep hole drilling a turbine housing, if the bit breaks off inside there, they will pretty much wreck the housing and it will be scrap. Why? Well anything they do to get it out, is 'outside the approved process for fabrication', they are off of the 'beaten track' and could be damaging something or effecting something that will fail later. At that point, there is no safe method for removing it [and no EDM isn't safe in this situation either as you can't garrentee that you won't gouge or nick the side of the hole at some point.]

The same thing goes for 90% of the parts made of the military and NASA. They are elliminating the 'unknowns'. If by only drilling 50 holes w/ a bit is what they decide is a safe number which will keep them away from broken bit's, then it's VERY cost effective to throw away a $5-10 bit every 50 holes instead of 1 in 100 [or even 1 in 1000] parts due to a broken bit.

It really has nothing to do with sharpening bits at all.

I don't think it is the worry of losing parts so much as changing the properties of the material like work hardening the material or bell mouthing the holes. Plus if I change drills every 50 parts or 10 parts I don't have to worry about cutting oversize or undersize. It's easy to see on an spc chart. If i sharpen my own drills I have no idea of the drill change frequency because I have no idea how long it will last. next someone will tell me how to resharpen taps!!!

Here's how you sharpen a tap.










just kidding.
But i'm sure most machinist on here do not work in a production shop, and there are many times when sharpening drills is needed.
I've just always thought it is more of a requirement to being a tool maker and not a machinist.
I other words...If someone were very good at running any machine in the shop,but couldn't sharpen a drill to save his life...i'd sharpen it for him,no problem.
But i wouldn't sharpen one for a tool man.

D****d puppies!

On the left is a tap I did sharpen because I made it. Single point boring tool for the tapping size on the right.

It is fairly simple to sharpen largish taps with a die-grinder and a very small wheel. It doesn't meet Aerospace requirements but it is real handy when you live miles away from anywhere and your only tap snapped off near the end.

And I don't consider myself a Toolman just a good Machinist.

forget 20%, did you know half the people out there are of below average intelligenc? :D



Average does not always = median. IQ distribution has not been proven to be a bell curve.

yeah i know, I've done stats, was just a joke....bell curve doesn't matter though, lots of distribution shapes would give mean=median....of course depends on where in the country you measure :D

Geof I have only one question Why????????????

Geof I have only one question Why????????????

Because I could not find a source for that diameter and pitch and I needed to tap a bunch of holes. Thread cutting was not an option because the part would have required a really complicated fixture to get it rotating around the axis of the required hole location. Thread milling was not an option because CNC mills with the capability didn't exist; this was done a wee bit further back in time than yesterday.

Nice Geof!
Your my hero!
I tried making taps a few times,they worked but didn't look near as good.
Looks like you gave them the old torch and oil dunk to harden them.

Hi Geof, doesn't it give you a buzz when you want something special and just go out and make it?
I have come to the conclusion that what my father said is true, the more you know the easier you make it for yourself.
Ian.

Hi Geof, doesn't it give you a buzz when you want something special and just go out and make it?
I have come to the conclusion that what my father said is true, the more you know the easier you make it for yourself.
Ian.

Never truer words written. And you also get to brag about it like this:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38031

I like making something work when I have no other alternative. It seems in this business I am without new tooling to do what I need and so I made do. I am amazed with the people who do this with such ease and I struggle through it myself. I have found most people will not even try to resharpen anything by hand and expect the company to buy new tooling. They have no problem keeping a job waiting while tooling is ordered. In my shop there are two out of 8 who do this.
Rman

Do it all the time, even the tiny ones....when I think I can see them :-)


After sharpening them for a long while you don't even need a gauge either, it's like riding a bike.

Scott

You know I get a bigger buzz or warm fuzzy feeling when its money going in my back pocket instead of parts going to the scrapyard. Their is no way you are going to compete with greenfieid or osg or balax on tap grinding never going to happen. They will make special taps for you at competitive pricing???
Joe

the naysayers to tap making, grinding, etc, you assume your business paradigm applies.....for those us doing this as a hobby, its not about through put, overhead and contribution; its about minimizing total dollars spent and getting a kick out of it. had to make some turnbuckles recently, dammed i was going to pay for a couple of 1/2 20 left hand taps when i can make them.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/michael0100/vIIbh.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/michael0100/vIIdone.jpg

if i were running production would i make my own? obviously not, but the ability to make your own tooling in the home shop lets you 1) save dough 2) not waste time ordering and waiting for crap and 3)finish the dang thing Sunday like you'd planned to

So mcgyver, 1) how much is your time worth? 2) how long did it take you to make these taps? 3) if you order when you get the job you can get the tools next day through msc, and on Sunday like you planned the parts would be done. fail to plan, plan to fail!
Joe

Joe look up real quick...

yep that's Mcgyver's point, I thought I'd point it out as you completely missed it the first time.

So mcgyver, 1) how much is your time worth? 2) how long did it take you to make these taps? 3) if you order when you get the job you can get the tools next day through msc, and on Sunday like you planned the parts would be done. fail to plan, plan to fail!
Joe

Sorry Joe, but I had to jump in on this. Aren't you in the wrong place? I'm sure there are plenty of BUSINESS forums where time/money is the ONLY reason for existence. Where the pleasure of making/doing something with your own hands is meaningless. Where a sense of accomplishment has no impact on decisions. Where the BOTTOM LINE is all-important.

Wish I could hand sharpen my own bits and taps, but my hands just aren't steady enough. Many a weekend, it would have saved me a lot of aggrevation a REAL machinist wouldn't have suffered...:)

So I guess I missed the point, lets reinvent the wheel It works OK as a square. why would anyone want to waste so much time and energy thats my point so look down again than step over the BS and realize the downfall of American manufacturing. you may be a hobbyist but if I want to take up plumbing as a hobby am I going to tell you to build an outhouse? Let's move into the 21st century and as I said before work smarter not harder....yeah I guess their could be some pleasure or a workout trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, I'm just not up for it.
Joe

Joe, its not a business for me and i stated were it, there'd there'd be no point in making taps myself. i make what i make because i like to, what is my time worth making a steam engine or some other item few would see value in? how do you value your leisure time? and on the working with old technology tact, who cares? is ever thing you do with state of the art equipment, if a new machine comes out are you wrong to use your 5 year old one? extending that logic, anyone who paints a painting is an idjit because they now have digital cameras. I am good at business and you won't find me lacking in the ability to discuss management accounting issues, however there are two paradigms here, business & hobby - management accounting has no role in what i make in my garage. to understand the answer two "why" (other than just assume you get it and everyone else is wrong) you need appreciate this and that the objectives are completely different.

PS, not adverse to the 21th century either, my cnc isn't done yet :D

If I look at things as what my time is worth, I'd be better off just staying in the office than futzing around with machining, old engines, cnc, electronics etc. but that's a lousy way to live

fail to plan, plan to fail!


I know the philosophy behind that statement (been to many JIT and shop planning classes)
but,not everyone works in a production shop where production is planed weeks or even months before production begins.
In a job shop someone may bring in a broken part on Friday and want it repaired or remade by Monday.In that instance..you do what you gotta do.
You could say that the customer needs to wait for planning and tooling,but thats not how a job shop operates.
I have been on both sides of the fence.
I worked in a shop that did both,we had CNCs for the production of Hydra Fitness equipment and manual machines for one-of parts for local farmers and bussinesses.
You may have seen the monster truck that stands upright and eats cars and spits fire,they were doing a show in a town near here and the hydraulics broke and a hinge joint that made the truck stand upright.
The cylinder was no problem as that was our main production item and we made many different cylinders..The hinge joint was another animal tho..I remember making 3 or 4 tools needed for reproduction of the parts.
It wasn't a matter of planning or lack of..It was a matter of timing and the availability of the tooling..You don't tell a $300,000 show attraction to wait for planning and tooling.

Also i know nothing of any downfall of American maufacturing.
If you are talking about the 60s 70s then it wasn't because someone was sharpening tooling.
It was because of American manufacturing not accepting CNC technology.
The thought was that the CNCs would take jobs away,many companies bought CNCs and they just sat in a corner because no one wanted to be blamed for a work force reduction.
It took a few years for Americans to realize the machines increased volume, which inturn created more jobs because companies had the money to hire people for jobs that were otherwise incorporated into other positions.

.....It took a few years for Americans to realize the machines increased volume, which inturn created more jobs because companies had the money to hire people for jobs that were otherwise incorporated into other positions.

I like both your posts, I hope widgitmaster who started this thread doesn't mind that they are off topic :) .

But I particularly like this point. I started my original business in 1981 and my current product line in 1986 with all manual machines. In 1999 I decided to go completely CNC and started with a Haas HL1 and then six months later a VF0. My guys were nervous about job security. The company now employs just over twice as many people as it did in '99, nobody was let go because they were replaced by a machine. And our output has gone up very substantially.

I should mention it wasn't all done with a HL1 and VF0; machine number 16 was delivered in April and 17 will be coming along in August. Which I guess shows I do plan to not fail.

And I guess I helped create jobs at Haas Automation and our local Haas rep.

[QUOTE=Geof;304067]I like both your posts, I hope widgitmaster who started this thread doesn't mind that they are off topic :) .

QUOTE]

I have a drawer full of blunt and broken drill HSS drill bits. There is very little chance that I will learn to sharpen them on a grinding wheel.


How do I get out of this fix? Drill Doctor, Proxxon?

Help is really needed.

Best wishes

Martin

...I have a drawer full of blunt and broken drill HSS drill bits. There is very little chance that I will learn to sharpen them on a grinding wheel.


How do I get out of this fix?....

They are steel. You simply find a recycling yard for ferrous metals and drop them off there. :)

drill doctor may work for you. But I try to regrind the drills without using the drill doc because I do not like to use the drill doc and have not much time to use it when I must just do it like I awlways have and that is to grind by hand.
Drill doc works good for some but not me.

best regards.
rman

Sounds like Martinw is working down a well if he can't find anyone to show him the fundamentals of drill sharpening.
It worries me as to what other areas of neglect exist in his machining education.
When you decide to not bother in some areas, it usually impacts in all areas eventually.
Ian.

Sounds like Martinw is working down a well if he can't find anyone to show him the fundamentals of drill sharpening.
It worries me as to what other areas of neglect exist in his machining education.
When you decide to not bother in some areas, it usually impacts in all areas eventually.
Ian.

Dear Ian,

I could be wrong, but I would imagine that most people who visit the Zone have some gaps in their knowledge about some things, whether it is woodwork, electronics, computing, material properties, machining or whatever. I am one of the unfortunate ones who knows next to nothing about machining because I was never taught it. My "machining education" is non-existant and I am not proud of that. I would dearly love to learn.

Hop on a plane and show me the way.

Best wishes

Martin

Good show martinw,
if drill sharpening is the art of machining then maybe you need to learn how to sharpen a chisel so you can hammer out parts. Learn how to be smart about machining and use the best tools you can afford to make the parts you want to make. I'm not saying to buy a 5 axis mill to make a washer I'm saying use your mind and imagination to make the parts you want to make if you make some money at it than good for you. I've only worked in job shops with 4 weeks lead time at the most so I plan my jobs off the machine even if I only have 2 days to plan them, I get all my tooling (as much as I can) in advance so there are no excuses, and run to a tight schedule to try and make some money. As to the downfall of American Manufacturing I think we are sitting on are ass's when times are OK pretty soon we will all have to speak Chinese to make a part. Where are all of these build yourself cnc's on this site coming from not USA? China will own us soon. But at least we can get some good general tso chicken.
Joe

Mcgyver,
My Posts here are to help everyone who can take what I give as professional advise from a professional, I'm not discussing management accounting issues on this site, and am no way proclaiming to be an accountant I'm saying I'm a manufacturing engineer with knowledge and skills to help the people in this forum that are trying to make a buck or two, If you want to make beer coozy's on the weekends for fun I will try to help you make them in an economical way so you and all you Friends can have one. If you want to use a chisel to make parts for fun more power too you. some of us are here to make parts and money.Have you ever heard the saying you can't beat a tradesman at his trade. BTW spell check is free
Joe

Hi Martinw, sorry if I came across a bit rough, but I get a bit short in the tolerance department as I get older.
Having been through the trade from apprentice days over 40 years ago, I tend to forget that some people do have a bit of trouble relating to cutting tools, however, having a drawer full of blunt drills means you aint gonna get better if you don't try.
If you take a large drill, about 25mm diam, and put it to the wheel while it's stationary, you can get the feel of the twist of the wrist motion that after a very short while becomes natural.
You could write a volume about drill grinding but like learning to drive a car it only takes a bit of doing it to get the hang of it.
BTW, I left UK in 1981 for OZ, because your winters were sh##thouse, so I wouldn't dream of hopping back on a 'plane no matter what the incentive.
Take care, machinery has no mercy.
Ian.

Hi, Can someone please make a nice video showing hand drill grinding?

....BTW, I left UK in 1981 for OZ, because your winters were sh##thouse, so I wouldn't dream of hopping back on a 'plane no matter what the incentive...Ian.

Yeah, the intolerant old so and so prefers to live in a country that is either under a pall of wood smoke, totally out of water (well almost), or getting the **** beat out of it with wind, rain and flooding.

Give me the gentle pit pat of rain on the leaves any day.

Hi, Can someone please make a nice video showing hand drill grinding?

I did a Video/Google for drill sharpening and found a few videos...but for some reason I can't get anything to play this morning.... But there might be one there that would show you what's going on.

When I teach people how to do it, I break it down into 3 component motions, and have them do them one at a time on a practice drill...usually around a 5/16 or so...makes it easy to see the results.

First thing to do is position the drill at the correct angles to the wheel. The drill tip should be above the centerline of the grinding wheel, with the tail of the drill angled downwards at 10-15degrees to get you started.

The 3 motions are:
1. the shank of the drill goes straight down
2. the drill gets rotated clockwise (maybe a 1/4 turn..dunno, I never measured it!)
3. the shank gets moved from its starting position slightly from right to left.

Got that? Confused enough?? Do those all at the same time and you should get a fairly decent grind...of course you'll need to do that equally to both sides.

Sound impossible? It ain't. If I can do it, you can do it. It's like walking, chewing gum, and farting at the same time. Not an easy task, but us machinists are always up to a new challenge.

Think about the contact line of the drill surface against the wheel, and the motion needed to give the correct contour.

Hi, Can someone please make a nice video showing hand drill grinding?

Go back up the thread a few pages and you should find my description. I think fizzissist and I are describing the same sort of motion in a different manner.

Hi Martinw, sorry if I came across a bit rough, but I get a bit short in the tolerance department as I get older.

Ian.

Dear Ian,

I know the feeling.

Since I have a drawer full of bits to practice with, I might give it a whirl. After all, the worst that could happen is that I end up with a very large pile of steel dust and some burnt and bloody finger tips. A small price to pay for a new skill...

Best wishes

Martin

Dear Ian,

I know the feeling.

Since I have a drawer full of bits to practice with, I might give it a whirl. After all, the worst that could happen is that I end up with a very large pile of steel dust and some burnt and bloody finger tips. A small price to pay for a new skill...

Best wishes

Martin

That's the spirit! Give the man a Gold Star, or at least a nicely polished bronze one.

Joe, thanks for the offer, if find myself making beer cozies and need help, your the man. btw what did i misspell? and what's a coozy? those sp checkers don't work for possessive vs plural, do they? :D

what economical means is dependent on the paradigm. there's a sort of an undercurrent, like a put down, in talking about making beer cozies or parts with a chisels...seems like not appreciating the difference in what economical means possibly gets viewed by you as crude techniques an unsophisticated projects on behalf of the home shop. If that's your view it does me little good to worry about changing it.....but it would equally nonsensical for me to take the view that not making your tap shows a lack of skill and enterprise; it would be a comment that had no relevance to the real reasons for the decision.

Management accounting is exactly what you are discussing. Management accounting (nothing to do with financial accounting) is do we build or buy, whats the contribution, throughput etc. Basically the economical measurement and decision making that determines activities in a business is management accounting - do you spend it making product or taps for example. Its perhaps is misnomer as it usually has little to do with accountants, but that is what management accounting is. remind me of the old story about the guy who's amazed to learn he's been speaking prose his entire life. :)

anyway, I do appreciate that you are a professional and i hope i can learn from you, that's the point right? the rest is just for a lively debate. cheers

Joe,
You don't think the world has enough manufacturing work to let China in on some of it?
Look around..America is full of plants the size of 3 football fields and larger.
Look at all the Japanese autos now made or assembled in America.
Many Japanese CNCs are Made or assembled in America.
Little something that some people don't know..Mazak is one of the largest if not the largest manufacturers of CNCs..If your machine has a horse next to the Mazak emblem,or is part of the emblem...It was made in Kentucky.
I can assure you Joe,there is plenty to go around, and China cant make it all.

That's the spirit! Give the man a Gold Star, or at least a nicely polished bronze one.

Dear Geof,

Thank you for this encouragement, but I suspect that the offer of this ultimate accolade may be somewhat premature.

Who would be prepared to pin any medal to the blood-splattered body of a digit-less failed machinist?

Best wishes,

Martin

I was once told by a mentor..."never trust or listen to a machinist that has fingers missing"
Guess what...my boss has fingers missing..i'm screwed.

Dear Geof,

Thank you for this encouragement, but I suspect that the offer of this ultimate accolade may be somewhat premature.

Who would be prepared to pin any medal to the blood-splattered body of a digit-less failed machinist?

Best wishes,

Martin

I think I might be over there sometime in 2008. I will do better than a medal, do you like Indian food, how about dinner at Veeraswamis?

I think I might be over there sometime in 2008. I will do better than a medal, do you like Indian food, how about dinner at Veeraswamis?

Dear Geof,

It does so happen that I do like a curry, and, if you are over in the land of gentle rainfall, ( scrub that, I really meant catastrophic global warming) I would be delighted to dine.

[Yikes, better buy that grinding wheel and get sharpening..... will I have to pass an exam...?]

Best wishes

Martin

Dear Geof,

It does so happen that I do like a curry, and, if you are over in the land of gentle rainfall, ( scrub that, I really meant catastrophic global warming) I would be delighted to dine.

[Yikes, better buy that grinding wheel and get sharpening..... will I have to pass an exam...?]

Best wishes

Martin

I will trust your word and if you prevaricate will haunt you and your descendants for the rest of eternity.

I will trust your word and if you prevaricate will haunt you and your descendants for the rest of eternity.

Dear Geof,

With a curse like that, I think I will simply buy a new set of drill bits for your inspection and approval...tee hee...

Best wishes

Martin

Geof, better take your 'Wellies', Mac and a brolly too, it pees down you know.
I can understand anyone wanting to listen to rain drops on dead leaves, but actually going to a place where it's a normal occurance.
Back in the last century, AD '76, I was camping in South Wales, UK, and the rain started the day before we left Bristol, didn't stop for 3 weeks, no exageration.
I like camping, but when you're on an open farm field with the rain falling at an angle of 45 deg, and the wind tearing the tent pegs about it, takes a bit of getting used to.
That year the yachts in the Fastnet yacht race got a bit of a pounding, many disappeared.
Now global warming I can relate to, 35 deg C is my cup of tea.
They say the Brits don't get suntanned, it's a coating of rust.
Martin,
I don't think watching a video is going to sharpen up your drill grinding antics, well, I suppose it might help, but the moment you take your eye off of the drill to see the video you're going to get your finger stuck in the wheel for sure.
Try taking a drill that has a properly ground point and cover the end with marker, preferably a red marker.
Now after having a few dry runs on a stationary wheel, to get the swing of it, just LIGHTY touch the drill to the running wheel, with the sweep action, so as to just mark it.
At the end of the swing you should see the grind marks on the end face that indicate if you've got the hang of it.
BTW, never use the side of the wheel, only the curved face, this is not negotiable, unless you want your rrr's kicked.
I would also invest in a drill grinding gauge, and this is a MUST.
This will give you the angle on the end which MUST be equal on both sides, and this is also not negotiable.
The other thing you must ensure is that the drill, for whatever purpose it is intended, has the point on centre.
If you grind the drill with the point off centre it will cut oversize, which is a cool way to get a variable hole size when you want it, but only if the drill is going into solid metal, no good for a predrilled hole.
The easiest way to check the centreing is to lay the drill on it's side on a flat surface and rub the horizontal chisel edge against a 90 deg vertical surface marked with chalk or whatever, rotating the drill 180 deg to check the other side.
It should leave a single line which indicates that the point is central.
Don't forget to cool the point of the drill in water - FREQUENTLY -, again not negotiable, otherwise you will need burn therapy, and lots of it.
Last but NOT least, wear grinding goggles, again not negotiable at all.
Old proverb:- Whether you think you can or can't, on either count you will be right.
Ian.

Mcgyver,
I guess I thought you were trying to call me an idiot not an idjit, my bad and I'm not sure coozy or cozies is in the Websters yet. Management accounting my point exactly. I say manufacturing engineering, decide the best way to make a part cost exclusive than go to the bean counters and see if they will buy it(or pay for it). Cheers
As for mazaholic the only reason foreign machines and vehicles are "made" in America is to fight tariffs I have a BMW X5 "made" in south carolina if you read the fine print something like 85% of the thing is made outside of the USA . As far as the football sized plants all over America they are going away faster than anyone can imagine If we don't take care of ourselves the only industry we will have in twenty years will be service to support the Chinese touring Disneyland. Don't let pride get in the way of truth and logic.
My rant for now.
Joe

Dear Ian,

Many, many thanks for your excellent advice.

Best wishes

Martin

Hi, who cares who owns the joint, as long as they pay the wages.
At the end of the day, they are relying on you to buy their goods, so it's in their best interests to keep you fat and wealthy so's they can get rich off of you.
Confucius say, man who walk down stairs backward is bloody fool.
Ian.

I guess in the land of OZ you don't have to worry about global economics. Thats what we used to think in America.
Confucius say, man who fart in church sit in own pew
Joe

Hey Joe, they don't call OZ "The Lucky Country" for nothing.
Ian.

I sharpen drills by hand, when necessary. Most of the time, they are 1/2" dia. or over. I do it on the 6" belt sander, and use my drill gage to check for equal edge length and angle . I watch the chips, and check the hole location and diameter to judge the results. I have a decent success rate for the work being done most of the time.

We have a darex grinder, and another larger one with a cup wheel for the bigger drills. I will defintelty use the big grinder for the large taper shank drills that are really wasted.

Alot of times I will not even take the drill out of the holder when using the belt sander for a quick touch up.

But, there's definitelty no substitute for a new drill.

Just read through the posts on this and had a good laugh. As an apprentice I had this beaten into me by my boss as I had made the mistake of coming in hung over. Being the prudent observer he was he immediately pointed me at a stillage with about 200 drills in varying stages of disrepair. He took the time to show me how to sharpen different types and then came back after 1/2 an hour to test them. All regrinds in that batch but after that I mastered most of the different types. I think it was one of the most useful things I ever learned as a first year apprentice.

Hi BigD, repetition, best way to learn, even with bleary eyes and a hang over.
What a lot of people forget is when you have a skill that is locked up in a machine, you'd better pray the machine doesn't break down or get sold off.
Ian.

It only took me 3 trys to figure it out. Just like grinding lathe cutting bits, you just do it. Don't over think it, just do it!

when i learned, back in the seventies, it was the basic in the shop..... i really would like to see the company which one just trow away a 25, 30 mm dia drill just because that's got dull edge :-)))))
in that time were not in the shops jig, fixtures, don't even machinery for drillsharpening... only greater factorys has separated shop just for sharpening tools..
we had to make it by hand, drillbits, endmills, all kind of tool for lathe...
if anybody had drill hundreds hole on a conventional lathe, that people want or don't want, they had to MUST to learn sharp a drill right,otherwise they just can not work... to drive a 30mm or bigger dia drill that's a hard work, and with right sharpening, less force need, the concentricity better, even the size more accurate...

thanks

Drill sharpening was just about the first thing I was taught when I started in the trade. They didn't say maybe you can do this they just said do it! Also don't forget that if you know how you can make a drill cut almost any size you want (within reason) and what about sheet metal points and changing the top rake for different metals? It's a basic skill that is not being taught anymore in our disposable world. Too bad! When us old farts are gone the whole deal will go in the ****er. Remember the line in the movie The Postman?
It's where Costner sees the old guy with all the young kids carrying the mail.
Costner says "what are you doing here"? The old guy says "I know things"

Hand sharpening is VERY helpful if you need to drill a 1/2" hole in an I-Beam standing on a ladder using a hand drill for instance. I remember a crane tech brought in his apprentice one day and told him, "you'll just have to stand there and watch me for a minute, I've been doing this for a long time." And then I watched him struggle like hell to push a 5/16 then 1/2" drill bit through the I beam using a hand drill, I though he was going to fall off the ladder! And I though to myself, should I sharpen that drill for him? Even if it's brand new, you can change the rake angle and thin the web and push it right through that I-beam, granted it won't last as long after being reworked, but would save time effort and possibly injury. Then I thought, oh well, I'm not going to interfere, he was just bragging to his apprentice about how much experience he has, HA!

Is it possible to hand sharpening Carbide PCB drill bit like in picture below?

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/drillcity_1991_16244392

The drill bits can be done by hand, and if you are good won't cut too much oversize.
The 2 bits on the right. Well that's a problem.
I have a small 1.5" diamond wheel. Hold the fluted part right near the tip and nearly grind your fingers. With some 4 or 6 x magnifiers it's just the same as sharpening a 1/4" drill (if you are good enough!)
I do down to 0.4mm before I have problems. Hold it at the correct angle, position, and just touch the wheel. It is all in the timing.

I used to sharpen all my drill bits by hand but,now I only hand sharpen the bits that are too large to sharpen in the Darex M-5 that was given to me.It sat for 5 years,brand new,barely used.I inquired about it and the department head told me to just get rid of it.I got rid of it.LOL.
Question.....Would you throw away a pencil just because the point was dull?Drill bits are a lot more expensive.

Hi all, anything is possible if you try hard enough.

Personally I use a hand drill jig to sharpen my drills up to 5mm diam, use to try grinding them with an eye piece magnifier and bench grinder, but got too close to the stone one day and ground my nose.

Like the man says, there's gotta be a better way, so I made one.

Ian.

Hi Neil, thanks for your info.

What kind of diamond wheel you use (shape, grit, etc.)? Where you mount it, on a bench grinder? The loupe, an eyepiece one? I have some bench magnifier for handling smt components, but thinking to buy a "head mounted" one.

Ian, would you describe more about your hand drill jig? I was looking for a jig, but cant find any for small diameter drill bit.

Regards, Ichan.

Oh boy, much ado about nothing.

I do it. I do it when I need to. I do it with large bits. I only do it with small bits if I really have to. I recently took part in a similar discussion on another board, but they were asking about sharpening small bits. I didn't really have to, but I did a 1/16" by hand with a small stone and a diamond tool to see how long it would take. To make it useful, I made a 1/16" spotting drill instead of a full length (I do a lot of small work). It cut on both flutes on the first try. So it can be done. Not perfect, but many connercially sharpened drills are a lot worse.

OTOH, some can not do it. I have tried to teach the skill to some who just couldn't catch on. So what? They should just buy new drills. Or let others sharpen their dull ones. There are companys that do this for a reasonable price - in the larger cities anyway. If you can't or don't want to, I feel that is OK. You are welcome in my world and in my shop. I don't think any less of you. I am sure you have some skills that I don't have. Perhaps more than the other way around. Live and let live and move on.

Hi Neil, thanks for your info.

What kind of diamond wheel you use (shape, grit, etc.)? Where you mount it, on a bench grinder? The loupe, an eyepiece one? I have some bench magnifier for handling smt components, but thinking to buy a "head mounted" one.

Ian, would you describe more about your hand drill jig? I was looking for a jig, but cant find any for small diameter drill bit.

Regards, Ichan.

I have a 40mm CBN wheel about 1/2" wide. I put it in spindle of X3 Mill.
I sharpen 3/8" Carbide Slot Mill. Mill was au$60, wheel was au$70.
I can sharpen many times for no more outlay. I machine F/Glass and stainless steel

There are various types of diamond and CBN grinding tools:
grinding wheels, sticks, saw blades, electro planting
products, lapping paste, diamond products are used in
processing of hard carbide alloy, high-AL ceramics, optical
glass, gem, marble and garnet, CBN products are
suitable for hard and malleable steel, non-ferrous metals
materials.

Resinoid bonded grinding wheel is made by bonding diamond
grit together with the use of a resinoid bond. As resinoid
bond, those of the phenol resin type and the polyimide
resin type are used, Hitherto binders of the phenol resin
type were commonly used. Resinoid bonded grinding wheel
have a good elasticity, and distinguished for their fine
surface finish and high grinding performance and highly
effective.

Ok, I'll try to find what I can get on the market here, the finest one available I think. I am also thinking to make a simple guidance to make sure I grind it on the right angle. Thank you Neil.

Regards, Ichan.

Practice on full size drill against a piece of PVC pipe about the same size as the wheel you will use. It is ALL IN THE WRIST. A nice rolling action to leave an imprint in plasticine will soon teach your brain how to coordinate the movements. Then just scale it down until you can't see the drill.

Hi neilw20, that's just about right, the wrist action.

If you can get the twist as you drop the tang end you'vce got it.

However when it comes to the small sizes like 1mm, like a year or two ago when I had to drill 10 holes in 6mm 316 stainless, what a pain.

The drill kept going dull and then going a bit "bendy" as I attempted to put a bit more pressure on to compensate for the dull edge, untill finally it cut in short jabs giving a squeeky scratchy noise.

The solution was to have a bunch of sharp drills handy and just keep using a new drill each time they went dull, cheap enough if the job pays enough, and costs more than the drill is worth to have someone with the knack for mini drills to resharpen them.

However as I have Scottish forebears and couldn't condone the waste I made a drill jig hand sharpening tool, based on a design that was commercially available in the 60's under the name of "The Wishbone drill sharpening tool", and it works up to 5mm diam.

If anyone's interested in making one I'll add a few photos next post, once I've resized them, and a drawing if anyone's really serious.
Ian.

We can always learn more.

I sharpen #70's by hand (flexible shaft, diamond wheel, magnification) all the time. If you're looking to tool a VMC, you'd have to be nuts.... If they're just to poke reasonable holes in reasonably accurate work - I'm on the separates the men from the boys side.

try holding the drill in a pin vise then put pin vice in a regular holder

Hi all, the drill sharpening tool I mentioned lets you sharpen 1mm drills as accurate as the bought in item, time and time again, not just to make them cut but to drill the size hole for which they were intended.

I don't know what a #70 drill is like as we're all metric over here.
Ian.

#70 is 0.7mm. Get yourself a free Sutton tools Drill Chart from Blackwoods.
The chuck in most pin vices are not true enough to keep the little point end on the center line unless you are holding it by hand. The 'wobbly' part of the drill needs supporting to grind it. Hold it in your fingers and use a small wheel on a hand held dremmel. It is amazingly easy to grind really tiny stuff. Get a kit of tiny wheels etc for au$20 from Bunnings Hardware.

Come to the BBQ on 24th May 2008
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53559

And I will demo (or attempt to) sharpen some 0.5mm drills. BYO magnifying glass!

Hi Neil, would you make a video for me (us) please?

Oh.. I wish I still in Melbourne right now...

-ichan

>I don't know what a #70 drill is like as we're all metric over here.
Ian.

Neil already said it's .7mm - also do #72's, which are .635mm. They are cheap, yes, but they dull so quickly even in non-ferrous that it adds up quick. Also, I'll say that it's a little boastful ;<}, because it's actually easier to do than a 1/4" -6mm once you get the knack - much less metal, easy to keep flat, etc...

Just sharpened a 1mm drill on my hand drill sharpener, oops, wrong end, better get my #3 dioptre reading glasses, ahh that's better, didn't need sharpening after all, joking aside, when you've got to put an end on the little buggggers it takes a bit of doing, then to see if it cuts, more to it, to actually get it to cut to size....seperates the etc etc......

Here's an interesting ploy from a guy who was a chemist shop owner all his life and only took up small scale engineering when he stopped selling the pills.

He use to rotate the small drills in a spindle like a small lathe tailstock held at the right point angle to a small mounted stone in a die type grinder.

What this did was to give him a pointed drill, no relief angle, with the end having an angle perfectly concentric to the c/l.

Next he held the drill in a small pin vice and having marked it with black marker just rubbed the back flanks away to give a clearance back angle. Worked a treat, as the back angle doesn't do anything but clear the cutting face so it isn't too fussy.

I thought this was very crude, but as he was into clock making and needed to have accurate hole drilling it worked for him.
Ian.

I use a carbide tip to turn the point on a drill to make it all symmetrical at the required angle then add the clearance by hand.
I also change the angle to 90 degrees on center drills by turning, then add the clearance. Now you can drill and countersink a hole in 1 operation.

Ian it is a bit later but I would like to see your efforts on the small drill sharpener

Thanks

Brian

Why do people call me Ian?
Just for that you have to come to the BBQ on the 24th of May.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53559
Then I will have a go at some by hand.

Ahem, hi Neil, Ian calling, I've got a small drill bit sharpener, the wishbone type, if you want to make one, been redesigned a bit from the original concept.

Here's a photo so's you can see what I mean.

I might even try to make the BBQ, next Saturday I believe, and demo it at the time.
Ian.

handlewanker.
I like that. You must have some other innovations for the BBQ. Please come.
I am going to make a variation for fixed 1/8" shank drills without the pin vice.

Hi, I could also bring a QCTP, (quick change tool post), I designed many years ago and can be made using some odds and ends I found in the scrap box, LOL, if only all projects were that simple.

St Albans? hmmmmmm, that's beyond the black stump just east of Woop Woop, down the track a bit, still if I polish the plugs on my old Merc and tighten the fanny belt a bit I reckon we'll get there, hope you've got a billy on the barbie, big T man meself, a drinking drover is a dead loss, what?

See you there.
Ian.

You can practice on some of my broken drill bits. You can take them home after you sharpen them. They make good tiny router bits too.
As I said. Are coming alone (re: ball and chain)

Hi Neil, no ball & chain now, coming alone, hope I can see the drill bits, better bring my 10X eye glass.
Ian.

Hi, I could also bring a QCTP, (quick change tool post), I designed many years ago and can be made using some odds and ends I found in the scrap box, LOL, if only all projects were that simple.

St Albans? hmmmmmm, that's beyond the black stump just east of Woop Woop, down the track a bit, still if I polish the plugs on my old Merc and tighten the fanny belt a bit I reckon we'll get there, hope you've got a billy on the barbie, big T man meself, a drinking drover is a dead loss, what?

See you there.
Ian.

just wondering, is this Australian lingo? Some American's talk some jive, but I'm lost?

MC-motorsports and to whom it may concern,
St Albans is a district a fair way from where I live, about 40 KM as the crow flies, and to say that it's beyond the Black stump means it's out of sight, and east of Woop Woop is getting further on where the dingbats and womble birds meet, oops, the pills are wearing off, anyway, ( down the track a bit) is getting to be a long walk back home if you get there, which, as I drive a 1980 Mercedes Benz 280E, six cylinder twin overhead cam multi point fuel injected 186 HP thingy, I always give it a bit of a tweak to check the oil, radiator water and fan belt and look underneath to make sure the possums aren't hanging onto the chassis etc.

I don't drink in working hours, and never behind the wheel, hence th