Hey guys. This is my first post and I need some expert opinions so here goes: I have a 7x12 lathe and a seig x2 mini-mill that I have had for a couple of years now. I have managed to amass a good bit of tooling and accessories for the mill but I am to the point I need to upsize. I am 29 and I make parts and build "stuff" for myself as a hobby. I have been thinking about the x3 or the geared head model with the square column and the motor on top like the one lathemaster sells. Which one is better

Skip the geared head. Slow, loud, not easy to have higher speed range and mostly redundant if you fit a VFD. I have been using an RF40 clone for the last 8 years, it’s up for sale.

My new machine has a VFD with a 2 speed range belt drive. Absolutely no comparison.

Square column with variable speed drive is the way to go.

Regards
Phil


Hey guys. This is my first post and I need some expert opinions so here goes: I have a 7x12 lathe and a seig x2 mini-mill that I have had for a couple of years now. I have managed to amass a good bit of tooling and accessories for the mill but I am to the point I need to upsize. I am 29 and I make parts and build "stuff" for myself as a hobby. I have been thinking about the x3 or the geared head model with the square column and the motor on top like the one lathemaster sells. Which one is better

I just looked at the lathemaster mill. 1,900 rpm top speed. If you are currently using an X2 I assume you are using small milling cutters probably mostly on aluminium. If so then 4,000 rpm plus would make a big difference, 6000 rpm would be a dream. Also milling at higher rpm effectively makes the machine stiffer.

Regards
Phil

Philbur you are correct I have been milling mostly aluminum, but only because the x2 is not rigid enough to machine the steel and iron i have wanted to do. I have tooling up to 3/4 currently but I would like to be able use decent sized flycutters, bore larger holes in steel, and machine larger steel pieces than the x2 will let me. For smaller stuff and aluminum I will use the x2 but I will use the larger mill to do about 70% steel, the only aluminum i'll do on the big one will be stuff too big to put on the little one. anything else I need to know about these? THe seig seems real nice but I have this this gut feeling the lathmaster model is a bit more powerful. Do any of you guys with the x3 have any bad experience machining steel with them, Mainly wondering if it is as rigid as you need it to be and as powerful as it needs to be to not bog down. Where can I get the best price on the x3? Thanks for helping me out, I really appreciate it.

I have a cnc'd x2 and just bought an x3 which I will also convert. The x3 will do things the x2 can not even dream of. But the rf45 type mills look much more powerful and quite a bit larger and might be better choice if you'll be working with a lot of harder metals. The x3 is about 350lbs and is a nice fit in between the mini mill and the much larger RF45 type mills.

Steve

Here are some examples of the most extreme stuff I will use it for: slotting 1/2" thick cold rolled plate with a 1/2" or 5/8" end mill, flycutting steel with a 2"-3" dia. cutter, boring up to 3" holes in steel. If the X3 will handle these tasks accurately then I'll get it and save some money. What do you guys think? will the X3 do this stuff without fatigue? I won't be doing stuff like that all the time, I just want the capability. I'll only use the mill about 5-10 hours a month.

Here are some examples of the most extreme stuff I will use it for: slotting 1/2" thick cold rolled plate with a 1/2" or 5/8" end mill, flycutting steel with a 2"-3" dia. cutter, boring up to 3" holes in steel. If the X3 will handle these tasks accurately then I'll get it and save some money. What do you guys think? will the X3 do this stuff without fatigue? I won't be doing stuff like that all the time, I just want the capability. I'll only use the mill about 5-10 hours a month.


These jobs are best suited for a machine at least the size of a knee mill. It is surprising any progress can be made at all doing this work in a bench top.
A 3" flycutter makes my 10 x 50 snort and boring a 3" hole needs pretty good rigidity.
Just some of my thoughts.

so i should forget about the fly cutter, how about an indexible face mill with multiple inserts, would that be the way to go for facing on an X3? I don't need to bore 3" holes, I just mentioned that because if I did need to bore big holes I figured that might be the limit. Will it slot 1/2" steel with a 1/2" end mill though?

By flycutter I meant indexable facemill, sorry for using the incorrect terminology.
I do not own a benchtop I can't definitevely answer your question.
Just throwing out some experiences.
1/2 in 1/2 steel you could likely baby it through, your question is missing MANY needed factors to answer. If you wanted to cut 1/2 slots all day you would be wasting your time; if you want to cut a 1/2 slot every 6 months - you probably don't care how long it takes.

James I,ve studied both machines and I currently have almost finished my x2 and 1/2 manual mill. Anyway I,m sure you could do what you want with the Zay45, its all about the beef. The more weight and rigidness the more it can cut thru steel. The best cheapest deal I found was thru Enco, then Wholesale Tool ,with Lathemaster coming in 3rd as far as price goes. Lathe master has not returned any emails so I,ll probably go with Wholesale Tool as they are a couple hours drive from me. Of course Industrial Hobbies has a sweet version of the Zay45 much bigger table and cnc stuff for it should you choose to upgrade later.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=382&PMCTLG=00
Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Measuring Tools, Cutting Tools and Shop Supplies

http://wttool.com/p/3006-0080
Machinery - Mill & Drill Machines - Geared Head Mill & Drill Machine w/Dovetail Column - 32-1/4" x 9-1/2" Geared Head Mill & Drill Machine w/Dovetail Column : Wholesale Tool Inc - Hand Tools, Power Tools, Machine Tools, and Shop Equipment.

The RF45's are definitely larger than the X3, you get a lot more mill for your money if you buy the lathemaster. I've not used the lathemaster mill, or any RF45, but I don't believe the quality would be as good as my X3. My X3 is well furnished, and well designed. The placement of the Z axis handle is something that does not get enough appreciation in my opinion, the RF45 has that handle on the side of the column. I'de much rather have the handle right in front, very easy to access.
The X3 is the perfect sized mill for me, at 350 pounds its not super easy to move, but can be done. The mill is great quality, all components were fit machined well, and fit very well together. My spindle runout is not even .0002", table flatness is within .0005" through the entire travel. There are oil ports everywhere, all metal gears, metal thrust bearings for each axis, and the mill was designed to accept powerfeed. They say table travel in the X axis is 16", but you can squeeze out another 2" if you make a small modification to the end plate.
I have milled some steel with my X3, very impressed. I used just a 2 flute hSS end mill and got great finishes. Mill was trammed to .001 as soon as I got it. I later made clamps for my screwless vise out of mystery steel, this time I used a 6 flute rougher 3/4", fantastic. My average depth of cut was .1", I could have gone deeper if I was in a hurry. I was able to hold .001" with no difficulty.

Also, I am unable to stop the spindle by hand when it is in Low range, plenty of power.

One more good thing I like is the headroom, theres so much of it. Here are some links to a few pictures I took to show somebody how large it is. (low quality images, I took them with a camera phone).
http://home.comcast.net/~phantomcow3/X3.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~phantomcow3/X3_2.jpg

Also, the best place to buy the X3 is from GRizzly. YOu will have it just a few days later.

The x3 will slot steel with a 1/2" endmill without any problem if your willing to just work the pace the machine is comfortable with. I was taking some nice test cuts with a cheap 9/16" endmill in stainless. But not at a depth the bigger mills could.
I cut a 3/4" wide slot about 1.5" deep( in several passes) with a 3/4" endmill in aluminum very easily with a VERY nice looking finish.

Anyhow if it's only once in a while for the rough stuff the x3 will be fine.
Heck I even CNC cut shaped spokes on a 4" OD flywheel/.55" thick disk of stainless on the x2 with a solid carbide 1/4" endmill using straight in plunges.
About hour and a half or so of machining at cuts of only .020" deep per pass at 4IPM.
But it did it and rather nicely I might add.

I regularly use a 3" flycutter even with the x2 but with very light cuts, so the x3 should have no issues at all. Boring a 3" diameter hole though is pretty large. Never tried anything like that so I can't say.
I do mainly smallish hobby size projects so the x3 has all the brute I need.
It's a nice mill , a nice step up in size over a x2 and looks to be a good foundation for cnc and modifying.

Steve

You should be able to bore a 3" diameter hole with the X3 in low range but, will want to take lighter and lighter cuts as you move outward.

Thats the kind of stuff I was wanting to hear. I just didn't want to spend 1000 dollars on the X3 and wish that I had saved 500 more and got the RF 45 clone. some weeks go by I don't even go in my shop but when I need to build something I want to be able to do it. My X2 works great but the limited table travel holds me back on some things. If the column were more rigid I could do a lot more with it. I'll let you guys in on a secret, I work for a bulk powdered cement manufacturing company and got our tech service guy to give me a mix design and I poured the column full of extremely strong, low shrink concrete. I stripped the column of every thing an let it sit in our climate controlled testing lab for a week along with the cement and aggregate and water so there temps and expansions would be the same then i mixed the concrete very dry (reduces shrinkage) and kept the ends wet after the initial set for 28 days in the same room. it worked out well and the column is indeed stiffer than without the concrete but still not rigid enough for a lot of what I need a mill to do, Thats the reason for the upgrade. Don't laugh at my concrete experiment, It did make a difference but didn't come close to changing the fact that it is still only a little mini mill that has limitations do to its design and the physics associated with milling metal. :cheers:

You wont need to pour concrete into the X3's column, its a good size. With the new carbide endmills I have, this thing really cuts well. Using my 3/4" 4 flute EM, I can take 1/4" off in aluminum no problem. NO chatter, just smooth finish. If I use my roughers, I can cut much faster. The limiting factor in feed is the low RPM of 2000 max. I am going to rectify this soon though. Needless to say, I feel like King of my workshop :)

heh, great information once again from phantomcow and others.

I was supposed to recieve my x3 from grizzly friday but something came up and couldn't schedule the delivery. Come monday I'll have it in my hands. :)

phantomcow2,

Educate me, please. Now when we are lalking X3, I'm whipping out the grizzly catalog and looking at their $925 3/4 hp, 0 -4000 rpm screamer. weighing in at around 372lbs. their model g0463. Be this the beast in question? R8 taper and roughly 6X16 travel.

Am I on the right page as knowing what the X3 is? Is this the equivelent to what CrazyRonnie and Lou receiver from syvil (if I spelled it correctly)

Harbor freights sells an X3 also, right. What has me questioning this is why is your spindle limited to 2000 rpm? Are there different version of the X3 and how great are the varances.

The reason that I ask, I do small production runs of aluminum (6061) and they are faily small pieces. Might make since to get a couple of X3 and cnc them, it they good little work horses. With the table size you could mount 2-4 inch vices and pretty much keep the machine in motion.

On the other post that Mr. JamesRobinson wrote, inquiring about the cost of cnc'ing (he was thinking about using acme screws) and I realize that you, Mr. PhantomCow have cnc'ed using ball screws. What size steppers did you use, and what travel did you end up with?, and did you use a gas spring on the Z axis.

Gentlemen, I have been toying, with the Idea of Tormach (Phil's very happy with his), the IH (AAron has a good rep. for being very helpful & bob's excited by his IH and all of that xy travel), but following Lou and CrazyRonnies thread, I beginning to think seriously about the X3.
One question, Mr. Cow, what kind of feed rate can you use taking the 3/4 cut and how wide at 2K rpm, and if you increase the rpm to (4K) what is your projected cut rates then (gut fill answers ok). Because in my milling, I am cutting 2.2 inch deep 1/2 inch slots with a 1/2 inch cobalt end mill, using a shopmaster 3 in 1. Any way your ansers may give Mr. JamesRobinson a better feel for for his machine selection.

Thanks,
Ron

From phantoms post in my thread.

Some of syil's features.

It has a tapping function, useless for CNC operation.
It has a more powerful motor rated at 1kw, it is probably not 1kw though.
Tachometer, so the spindle RPM is displayed.
The head rotates 180 degrees, probably useless for CNC operation.
The thing I really like is the head casting, the motor is inside the head casting. The normal X3 has the motor sitting to a side. THis is cosmetic though, I just think it looks neater.

From the top....
THe grizzly catalog has an error, the MOTOR rpm is 4000max, spindle is 2000. There is a Hi Low, in Hi the ratio is 4:1, giving a SPINDLE rpm of 1000max. This is very strong, I cannot even stop the spindle by hand. In HI, its 2:1, giving 2000MAX. So harbor freight has it right.

The one Syil provides is the Super X3, Jl123 summed up my thoughts there.

I am a little unsure of the X3's history, there appears to be several models. Early models were fitted with a gas strut for teh Z axis, and a fan for cooling the electronics. Now there are giant heatsinks fitted on the mosfets, and No gas strut. Theres some ambiguity about the HF and the Grizzly X3's. The picture of the HF version looks smaller, and lists smaller travel. But Chris wood says that he saw both versions in the Sieg factory and they are actually identical, both versions are different people measuring the same thing differently. If it was me, I would buy GRizzly for the fast shipping and service.

I have not yet CNCed my mill. I've had it for a little over a month, and am beggining that process now. I've started making motor mounts, buying ballscrew, etc. I plan to use 270oz-in bipolar stepper motors. BY the time ballscrews are mounted, it will be plenty of torque. I do plan to buy a gas strut from MCMaster, they are not even 20 dollars. I need it to be about 80 pounds, roughly the weight of the head.

Travel right now is 16" in the X, but its funny how they did this because the end plate actually limits travel, if you mill away a small section of the end plate you should get 18" of travel in the X. The table is almost 22" long, plenty of space for multiple screwless vises.

I have done some heavy duty aluminum milling with my X3 using primarily a 3/4" 5 flute rougher EM, cobalt flavored. Is the end mill you plan to use a rougher? I highly recommend them, I can easily take .25" deep cuts into aluminum with the endmill I just described, probably feeding around 20IPM. THere is no hint of chatter in this instance, I could probably feed faster. Also, # of flutes makes a difference. Next time I am milling something, I will try to give you a good idea of how fast and far I can mill with my roughers before the mill starts to cry

Dear Phantoncow2,
Are you looking at using nema 23 motors, if so the keling motors, and if so I used the keling 270 and 354 in/oz and was pleased with both on a 9X20 lathe. Are folks using 270 in/oz for all three axis? My gut feel is that may a little light, but then again my controller that I built used 35VDC, primarily because of the hobbie cnc stepper driver which is unipolar reducing the 270 to 200in/oz for my lathes x axis.

How soon will you start your conversion? Planning to use gecko's? and double ballnuts. Saw somewhere where you can buy plans to make antilash ballnuts for $7. I think its a coupler that you use 2 ball nuts. One thing I may have to pickup is a 15/16 -16tpi tapp for mounting ball nuts. I think there around $50 from McMaster carr.

Well, thanks for the info,

Forgot to ask, how are you planning to increase the spindle speed and how much are you planning to go, and I guess what can the spindle/bearings support.

Ron

I will use the 270oz motors for each axis. I will be running these in Bipolar, so getting the full torque. 270oz is a good amount of torque, great with the ultra efficient ballscrews. When I get a motor spinning, I will try and see if it will turn the X axis handle just as it is, acme screws and all.
I was just going to get two ballnuts per axis and preload them. I will not use GEckos. If I use these motors, they are only 2.8amps in parallel, not worth getting 7amp drivers.

I plan to ditch the stock motor and electrical setup, and replace it with a DC motor ~1.5HP, and get a step V belt setup. So I will have a Hi and Low range, a HI range of 4500RPM would be nice. The spindle bearings are good for 9k

Phantomcow2,
Since we are still within the subject of Mr. Robinsons question concerning the X3, if I may ask you kind of stepper driver are you thinking about, because as I previous spoke of the cnc hobbie board that I used, (I'll give a little detail for others reading this post and Mr. Robinson) is a $79 3 channel (XYZ) unipolar card that is also a parellel breakout card and has the 24vdc output for a cooling and can operate to somewhere about 44vdc, great card except you hace to run the motor in an unipolar configuration and with a max of 3AMPS. If it were bipolar. Problem is the reduction of power when compairing a bipolar configured motor vs. the same motor configured in a unipolar configuration which will be about 30% less power.

All of that to ask, Mr. Phantomcow, if not the gecko (capable of 7 AMPS bipolar at $114 or so per channel) what drivers are you looking at?

If, the 270 in/oz assuming nema 23 mounts, were enough power (the 453 in/oz kelings $54 ea which would be 300 inoz unipolar using the hobby cnc card and still nema 23). Are you thinking nema 23 size?

Well once again thanks for the input

Ron

I already have some NEMA 23 motors I am planning to use. THey are LIN Engineering, 8 wire. I am just guessing the 270oz figure for torque. They are not listed on the website, the most I can figure out is that they "HI TOrque series", and classified as the second longest motor they have, so it may be over 270.
I want to wire these in Bipolar mode to take full advantage of their torque, and ideally bipolar parallel. I have the amps in my power supply, but it is only 28v.
There are two drivers I am considering:
http://www.bright.net/~agarb/STMD/AVR_STMD.html
http://www.motioncontrolproducts.com/MSD542.html

THe Motion COntrol products driver looks good, and works out to around 77 dollars. Of course I have to pay shipping. I do like the looks of that other AVR based driver though, and I like kits where I solder it myself because it makes me understand the circuit more, and be able to fix it. Otherwise it is just a mysterious black box, I hate that.

From what I understand, those 453oz motors have high inductance. This would limit their speed and torque characteristics