I have several Fanuc 5T powered lathes. Illness and fatigue has set in (I'm sick n tired of dealing with 25+ year old flakey electronics).

Interested in hearing from ANYONE who's either done their own retrofit of a Fanuc 5T or a decent size LATHE with the Ajax system. The Ajax site seems to have a lot of mill type applications and customer testimonials but not so much on lathes.

Most certainly the factory will vouch for it's performance - I'm looking for first hand experience. You know, real life unbiased stuff like:

support issues, ease of use, quirks, service, praises, rants, satisfaction, regrets, whatever.....

The wiring issue doesn't bother me as I've already redone that due to having to fix up hacked up 5T wiring butchered up by the former owner.

I used a centroid retrofit pacakge and wasn't impressed. It is a milling controller and I found a lot of the turning functions were cobbled together.

Cutter comp is hokey- hope you like programming to the center of your insert radius. Doesn't support a barfeed - no interlock logic, etc. Be prepared to launch a few bars through the backside of the machine...

Especially considering the fact that it was a 'package' led me to believe they had built one or two before and tried them out. Clearly not the case. They would not supply me with params for the application (package,mind you!) and there was some trail and error. For nearly a year the X jog buttons on the pendant worked the wrong way. The X+ button moved X- and vice versa. It took nearly a year to get them to BELIEVE that was really happening. They also stiffed me on some options and it was a waste of $15k. Glad I only did one machine as a tester.

In all honesty this was a centroid pacakge. But if you can get the same thing from ajax, just save the money and instead go for a nice, sharp stick in the eye.




I have several Fanuc 5T powered lathes. Illness and fatigue has set in (I'm sick n tired of dealing with 25+ year old flakey electronics).

Interested in hearing from ANYONE who's either done their own retrofit of a Fanuc 5T or a decent size LATHE with the Ajax system. The Ajax site seems to have a lot of mill type applications and customer testimonials but not so much on lathes.

Most certainly the factory will vouch for it's performance - I'm looking for first hand experience. You know, real life unbiased stuff like:

support issues, ease of use, quirks, service, praises, rants, satisfaction, regrets, whatever.....

The wiring issue doesn't bother me as I've already redone that due to having to fix up hacked up 5T wiring butchered up by the former owner.

Thank you EVER SO MUCH FOR THE REPLY!!!!! Hmmmm. I wonder if anybody from Ajax is still visiting the site and has a response???

I saw a similiar post dealing with Camsoft in that they (meaning the vendor of the package) had "issues" with the lathe package which seemed to remain unsolved and/or the installer was unsatisfied.

Not being software literate and merely interested in installing an updated controller and making parts (instead of messing with software glitches ad nauseum), it looks more and more like the performance of "high end" lathe side CNC retrofits leaves a lot to be desired. I realize that NC lathes are a smaller part of the business as opposed to NC mills BUT if you're selling it that way, the darn package had better perform.

Interestingly, I have since the original post, contacted Ajax. Even though they indicate having done "Fanuc retrofits", it rapidly turned into "your stuff won't work, blah blah, buy our new servos".

Having worked with DC servo's and PWM servo controls for some time, I failed to see how MY 90 volt DC like new servo motors WITH a 2000ppr encoder (not resolver) and 12 amp draw wouldn't work with their 140 volt, 15 amp servo amp that, too accepted a comparable encoder input.... Moreover, I'm STILL waiting for their rep to call and for the Ajax side to send me the information they promised.

Before I dump that kind of money on a new system that clearly seems to offer bull instead of service/support, I'll spend the time to dink with my Fanuc stuff some more.

Dealing with old connnections in a lathe controller that DOES work (when the electrons don't get lost) is surely better than dealing with an all new system that is poorly supported and improperly/inadequately developed. Maybe it is true, they don't build 'em like they used to.....

Has anyone HAD luck with a servo based, non-LPT port CNC lathe retrofit that WORKS and works like it is supposed to?????????

I posted a threading Q months ago here and nobody has even posted a reply. It was another case of the cycle not working like it is supposed to.

I was unable to program finish & spring passes and leadout on a thread cycle. The only way was to set the machine parameters. Works okay, until the next part needs a different setting... No spindle load meter. No realtime display of following error. The spindle drive they supplied is SO wimpy that CSS is useless.

Have you looked into a fanuc retrofit? There are some decent shops around and they are very well supported. I got a quote of $22k for my machine - that was new spindle&servo drives and all. I elected the centroid because lead time was 2 week versus 6 months for the fanuc retrofitter.

From one of the people here that does RetroFits for a living here are a few points:
If the machine does not have usable motors and drives then it is definately worth going to one of the large companies, personally I prefer Mitsubishi over Fanuc, not necessarily because of the product (although it is comparable), because Mitsubishi are easier to deal with and phone support is really fast.
I have done Fanuc, Mitsubishi, Camsoft, plus many in-house designed stand-alone systems based around Acroloop and Galil.
For anyone considering using a package they have not used before, or have not done a retofit before, believe me, there is no quick way, there is going to be a learning curve, Most of this will be doing the machine interface, PLC/PMC R,S,T,M codes and tool changers etc.
The upside of using a complete package is that the CNC G codes & Canned cycles, etc, are already written, the motors and drives match the system and integration is minimal. This equates to Less time taken for the retro.
There are good systems like Fagor, which I believe still have the option of using your own drives, they are also a good company.
Mainly like anything else with CNC, you get what you pay for.
My 2¢.
Al.

Al:

I have 3 fully functional Fanuc 5T's. The ONLY reason I want to update is because of the flakey wiring that is 30 years old. Latent corrosion and loose connectors results in something NOT going ready every so often. Simple case of illness and fatigue (I'm sick and tired of dealing with flakey old TTL level controls that have to be sent halfway across the country for affordable but good service or troubleshooting a loose wire burried someplace).

I simply can't afford to have a turn key retrofitter do the work due to the shape/performance of my current business model. I simply figured that in lieu of the explosive growth of DIY cnc, a PC based system would be bolt-on able. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.

In my case, I have a fully built/developed and engineered CNC with encoders, spindle drive, everything - only tired/dated electronics. Technically I have identified and can access EVERY single signal that a controller needs to run in full CNC mode - the darn lathes already do it only with 30 year old controllers. You'd think that one could remove the old control, rehook the appropriate signals/power lines and refire the thing after some minor tweaking.

I have 2 axis worth of properly sized and functional DC servos (Model 0, 90vdc, 12 amp) with 2000 count encoders and matched power transformers - nothing wierd or trick as current technology goes. I have a 10hp DC spindle drive that only needs 0-10v speed and proper relay applied logic (proper M code to trigger existing relay bands) for direction to make it run. Nothing at all trick or special. I can make it run manually with jumper wires.

Yet, when I talk to these "bolt in DIY retrofitters" who claim to offer complete canned cycles for Hardinge and Fanuc lathes, I get:

"...your servos won't work...you need ours...",
"... you'll have to write software...." (what am I paying you for???) and
"...your motor and servo are special matched won't work with our servo amps" (having reverse engineered several servo amps and studied the DC drives till I'm blue in the face, I know such statements are categorically B/S - when you get obvious B/S fed to you, would YOU trust the vendor????).

Maybe a purchasing agent will buy that line but a degreed engineer who knows about mechanical and electical interfacing isn't going to buy such B/S.

Then I get/see comments about these "lathe retrofits" as being nothing more than mill controls that are fitted to lathes but that is NOT quite what goes on (Thanks to those who responded - I really appreciate your candor!!!).

Several members reported that service support for simple stuff was poor or non-existant. Threading doesn't work, jogs are backwards, months of e-mail exchanges with tech depts that are exercises in futility, etc. Hmmm. Really makes you want to do business with them?!?!?!

Heck, I even had the high end MDSI guys in (they are based in my town) and the first words out of their mouth is "you'll have to write software" - spend $3K plus for their box and their "software" and then you have to write more. Sorry, no. I make cams, YOU make software and if you've done it before, it shouldn't have to be done from scratch as if this was the first time you ever saw a CNC lathe.

The reason why Microsoft got SO big was that (even as bad as they are), their software AT LEAST did the basics and did it well enough to satisfy the 90 percentile of the market when the average guy who threw it at his machine. How difficult can that be to an experienced programmer who supposedly has done it before with other comparable retrofits?????

I'd contend that the CNC guys who sell DIY retrofit kits would do as well as Bill Gates and Co. when/if they made software/kits that did simple turning, spacing and threading (while looking for limits and home switches) which is ALL I'm looking to do.

Haven't found any that fit that description yet and there doesn't seem to be any affordable candidates emerging... Looks like its time to go back to romancing the Fanucs some more.

Have you looked at a PC based control? You have the performance,functions,IO mapped out well enough. Perhaps Mach2/3 supports the Galil driver board which will handle driving voltage/position servos (not the step/direction used in the hobby&home market)

I did a PC retrofit before the centroid. Figuring I'd get the performance without spending the time... ugh.

Perhaps Mach2/3 supports the Galil driver board which will handle driving voltage/position servos (not the step/direction used in the hobby&home market)

Oh, I so wish they did, :cool: right now I cannot sell my customers a through-the-parallel-port system.


Heck, I even had the high end MDSI guys in (they are based in my town) and the first words out of their mouth is "you'll have to write software" - spend $3K plus for their box and their "software" and then you have to write more. Sorry, no. I make cams, YOU make software and if you've done it before, it shouldn't have to be done from scratch as if this was the first time you ever saw a CNC lathe

This is what I was trying to explain, even the highest end systems manuf., let alone the DIY cannot sell you an off-the shelf-package.
The reason is due to the unique-ness of every machine.
The CNC control side CAN be pre-written, but the machine interface that involves all the S,M codes is different for every make of machine.
The 'PLC' side of the machine has always had to be written by someone, either by yourself or you pay someone (retrofitter etc) to do it.
In some cases they can supply a 'Generic' case that can be used and adapted.
But I don't see any way around it, Unless you can find someone who has done EXACTLY the same machine that you have and is willing to part with the Data.
The bottom line problem is, the suppliers of systems do not have a product that can be used to drop directly into every one of thousands of different machines that are out there without some sort of adaption.
And then there is the re-wiring... :)
Al.

Re: S & M code writing (sounds kinky).

The 5T (I'm told) was a fairly simple and basic control in its day. It has 3 I-O sections. All I-O's are merely NO/NC relays (output) or the input to a relay coil which interfaces internally to the TTL NC.

One section takes all the limit, jog, e-stop and other input controls. Pretty simple to interface as the lathe builder had to make THEIR wiring work with the Fanuc logic in the Fanuc prescribed manner. So much for code writing.

The "S" function is merely a 10 bit signal fed to a D-A converter. Set the S in G code and the analog signal is fed to a prewired 10h DC spindle motor drive. Again, pursuant to Fanuc software and again using their logic.

Trip the proper M codes ("motor run" in "this direction" outputs via N-O relays on NC) and the spindle drive does the rest as told. Again, from a pre-configured relay logic board. The stop codes (N-C contacts) trip and shut stuff down with e-stop or CNC logic when the proper M codes are set by the Fanuc. Like I said, the whole mess can be made to run with jumper wires - as simple a digital logic as there is.

The servos are pretty much driven and fed back as one would expect using contemporary TTL levels. The NC connects the two and itegrates them to the prefit spindle encoder which has timing signal to do threading.

It would seem that (asside from HOME switch inputs that I found strangely missing on the retro controllers I looked at), wiring connections in the proper sequence would/should interface with properly written fundamental PLC operating "code" and the machine should run.

Tell me what you want in the way of an input signal and I can pretty much "live" with your methodology for turning, spacing and threading.

I think the problem here is that people are looking at this as taking a dumb lathe and "retrofitting" a controller to it with no existing locic. This is/was already done.

The relay/ladder logic is DONE.

The system is already NC controlled and has a fully functionaly albeit alzheimer aflicted (at times) controller. The mere fact the thing runs at its age is probably more than one should expect.

As far as the rewiring, BTDT.

The former owner hacked it up (literally) and ALL the output wiring from the 5T to the spindle drive and servos and "iron" had to be retraced, reconnected and/or redone. Hence, all the M00, M03 etc's and the S's and the limits, etc have already been found and retraced - both logic and wire connections.

Since the original the lathe maker had to wire the machine to fit the Fanuc M and S code logic, that's already figured out and been done. Oh, and I have ALL the factory wiring diagrams and relay logic schematics.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it and maybe it IS too simple (BTW, one local retrofit engineer admitted my machine was TOO simple - no profit in base machine retros).

I, too, am one of those clients who will not run off the limited I-O's afforded by a parallel port. I also will NOT use a Windows based control system if at all possible - I want simplicity, not DLL madness.

The I/Os are not a problem. If a parallel port is a turn off due to the limited number of I/O lines, you can easly add aditional ports.

Agreed that windows would NOT be a choice I would make. I havent looked at the EMC control for a while, but its very stable and linux based. Not to be confused with the clowny 'my first linux' offered by centroid, running their dos code (and it hicoughs and burps at differences between CR and LF)

As to the lack of home switches, some retrofits will only use a travel limit switch. They will cruise into the switch at a low speed, then back off until the encoder index pluse triggers. You can software define the coords around that point that triggers.

This system is decent for lathes where you can usually return to X+Z+ safely. No problem parking a lathe at that point. It's slow and awkward on mills to creep to X+Y+Z+. I like to park tables centered and supported, not all the way to the extreme of its travel.


If the ladder logic is done and working - and the servos and drives are happy - why not just bold on a 0T panel and call it a day ?

Schizzlemah: your comments re:Centroid is seemingly another of a similiar vein that I got about their system. After talking to their sales guy the other day, i've all but decided NOT to use them.

Between logic that can spit parts out of lathe, X- and X+ directions that don't work and then B/S when it came to interfacing fairly simple DC servos, it has become apparent that I need to look elsewhere's.

Huflungdung reported problems with Camsoft too - software and/or servo amp issues. Turned into classic case where software guy points to amp guy who points to servo guy who points to software guy. Ultimately code had to be written to do simple thread turning that the "lathe code" should EASILY do. I categorically refuse to write bridge code to fix software deficiencies when I buy software - do you have to write code to get Word or Excel or IE to work???.

What categorically amazes me, no STUPEFIES ME, is the fact that Bridgeport created a single BMDC card that ran VMC's, mills and supposedly turning centers.

More stupefying is the fact that it ran off of a comparatively lame 486 ISA buss'd DOS computer IN 1995. Yet, with better and faster computes, the same can't be done today.

Like I said, STUPEFIED.

My Eztrak mill simply works and does so with the ease and grace of what I need my lathes to do. Whomever wrote that code and/or created those cards is sorrily missed in the industry. They are defiinitely laboring at the wrong business (pay attention EMI).

They (you) could be making a comfortable living doing DIY retrofit kits with an elegantly simple system. From what's been reported about Camsoft and Centroid/Ajax, these fine vendors had better hope people as sharp as those who did the BMDC and the Bridgeport code don't resurface with a clean system that uses contemporary code for the hardware available today....

If only SOMEWHERE/SOMEHOW/SOMEONE could create a viable BMDC but contemporary and LEGAL knock-off and offer it anew. For some applications, a classic simple system is all that's needed.

In retrospect, an Ajax system costs $2800 just to start. The BMDC card itself can be bought new for about $1400 (parts total is a tiny fraction of that). Add the AXSBOB and AUXBOB and you add another $50 tops. Add an appropriate servo amp (Gecko, Galil, Rutex, whatever) and you'rr close to Ajax dollar wise.

If I could buy a BMDC based system today, I'd do so in a heartbeat. Why? because it simply worked.... Maybe not good enough for Bridgeport/Hardinge but surely plenly good enough for my simple needs.

It's not only the I-Os limits anymore (even if/when you add more cards), parallel ports don't communicate in real time anymore with XP systems like they did with DOS/Win 9x . The lack of ISA busses keeps some PLC controls (BMDC card for one) from being used anymore. The industries lack of DOS support for PCI buss sort of forces you into the Windows quagmire.

In light of the fact that asside from the old 5T controls that have fully functional ladder burned into proms - all that's needed is/was I's to read and the O's to drive (which are set with a prewired external relay board), I have fully functional and LIKE new 30 y/o lathes (came out of a trade school).

If I knew what an OT panel was or who made it and if they were affordable and retrofitable and user friendly to the DIY'er, I'd consider it. I can afford $2-4K for a retrofit of an otherwise sound CNC lathe. I simply can't afford $10-22K to have an integrator sell me a Centroid or Camsoft 'nightmare'.

Looks like its time to romance the 5T's some more. Perhaps I can forstall/reverse any further alzheimers via TLC of connections and other "tricks" I've learned via my prior resurrection efforts done to-date.

Thanks to all those who responded in P/M and in posts. Your insight was VERY helpful. To those who are looking at doing a CNC lathe, be forewarned, it is a FAR cry from doing a mill, even though it shouldn't be.

0T panel , as in Fanuc 0T. Possibly the *easiest* to integrate. May need new generation ladder logic- but that's pretty simple as you said the IO is quite basic. Spindle,coolant, probably turret indexing, etc.

Also a Yaskawa control may also interface pretty well. If you get a real lathe controller with an installed base of millions of units, the software issues disappear.

$2-4k seems like a really really tight budget. I doubt there is a commercial solution in that range. Try the Linux / EMC control software for starters, roll your own step/dir hardware (geckos?) and be ready to write a lot of code. It's a solid platform that I run on a mill, but when last I checked it was lacking spindle encoder feedback and lathe cycles. The motion code is pretty solid, and the I/Os are good.

This seems to be my hitch: I have all the stuff where the profit is made. All I need is a controller - I can pretty much interface to an existing ladder logic if it was written for a decenct, full featured Fanuc NC lathe as mine is/are.

Having talked with a number of suppliers, they all want to sell me the WHOLE system - see prior post #6. My systems invoiced out at nearly $40k when new in 79 as they had the optional memory cards, optional DC drive motor spindle for variable speed, spindle encode for threading, DC servos (not resolvers), and twin 4 position (F & R) tool changers. Real spiffy machines in 1979 and still like new.

This was why I looked for a PC system - since my my 1996 BPT had a pretty full featured DOS system for the time, I figured its 2006, somebody should have something as good or better and fairly cheap and comparably featured in 2006 for DIY retrofit. Doesn't seem to be the case.

Step and direction drives seem to be a step (no pun intended) backward to a that where the servos/encoders feed back directly to the controller. Huflungdung ran into a amp/software/servo issue with Camsoft that I'd attribute to the right hand not knowing what the left one's doing and/or incomplete lathe software.

I don't know machine code and I'm too busy trying to make ends meet with my business to take the time to even consider writing let alone learning how to write ladder logic code. Even the guy who services my Fanucs can't and won't do ladder logic.

The more I look the more I"m finding out what appears to be the simple truth: I may NOT be able to improve upon let alone match what I have in the way of PC controlled retrofit - as dumb as that may seem....

I wish the guys who created the Bridgeprot BMDC system were entrepreneurial enough to do DIY cnc hard and software for mills and lathes. Where are you now that we softwared challenged but technically adept DIY'ers are who need you????

I will give Fanuc a call and perhaps Yasakawa, but as you say, my budget is pretty slim and the stuff I need isn't the stuff that retrofitting profits are made with - I already have the high profit potential stuff....

As another person that does convertion of machins to PC based system I agree alot with what Al said. The bigest problem with an off the shelf system is every machine is a little different. Plus in the middle customers al most allway what a few things changed to have the machine work better for them in there aplication.
For example Delta Tau has NC software that has most of what is needed for a Lathe or Mill convertion but there is still set that has to be done. You have to set it up to work with the drives and motors. Set up all the I/O. And write a little code to make every thing work together.
The more I look the more I"m finding out what appears to be the simple truth: I may NOT be able to improve upon let alone match what I have in the way of PC controlled retrofit - as dumb as that may seem....

I disagree with this there are good PC-Based controler cards out there. I would use aDelta Tau. Sound like Al would most likly use a Acroloop and Galil. They are just not plug and play there is a little work need to make work with different machines.

Well gang, after reading and absorbing all the above, and doing more research than a sane person should consider, I've come to the following conclusion:

They don't/can't make stuff like they used to. Here's why:

My 5T's have software encoded in proms. Same identical control only various software on EPROMS (that used customer input parameters to set "options") which changed from machine to machine.

HOWEVER, it should be noted that I've scored a number of spare m/b's from different 5T's from different lathes and plugged them in.

Surprise, even with different software (IE: ladder logic) from different machines, the basic funtions WORKED with no recoding or ladder logic manipulation.

As long as the S and M logic O's were hooked properly to the EXTERNAL relay logic, no recoding was needed - heck I couldn't do recoding if I had to cuz nobody at Fanuc knew anything about the 5T's when I called.....

The basic M's and S's needed to run the hard wired external relay logic and D-A speed signal to the spindle drive worked the same. Moreover, the basic machine functions (turn, space, threading) still worked - and all with NO reprogramming or recoding.

For grins, I contacted my Bridgeport rep as my Extrak had a PC that was doing some pretty sophisticated stuff. He helped me sort thru my EzTrak mill and pointed me to some folks who sent me unpublished documentation about the BMDC PLC card that runs it during a recent tuning thrash.

Surprise suprise. The exact same ISA card was used in mills, lathes and VMC's. The only change was software burned to BMDC's proms and the DOS (yes DOS) program that the card runs on via ISA bus.

Same D-A +/-10vdc signal industry standard servo amps and same I-O channels. Yet vastly different yet PROPER output for the specific application (mill or VMC or lathe).

Imagine that, a 1995 vintage controller that runs off of a 486 66mhz PC and ISA bus. And it could simultaneously run 2, 3 or 4 axis lathe, mill or VMC PLUS it set S and selected M codes from DOS.

Imagine that. Load and run with minimal (correction, NO code writing asside from the clearly generic and VERY typical I-O's. Say it ain't so!!!)

Haven't done pin for pin check of lathe vs mill vs VMC versions of AXSBOB's and AUXBOB's. But since the same BMDC PLC was used for all with PC based system, one could assume the same I-O's were used to and from the same plug-in break out/in boards.

Hmmmm. How could a DOS based program do in 1995 with fixed PLC pinout I-O's that can't be done today??? Better programming??? Better engineering??? Better O/S??? Better PC??? You can probably guess my beliefs.

From what I"ve seen, the BPT floppy loads the O/S (DOS 6.0) and the DOS program that subsequently runs the machine with common BMDC hardware.

It is my understanding that the BMDC is a PLC that has different code burned into common PROMS to make it VMC, lathe or mill compatible - shades of exactly what goes on with my 1979 Fanuc.

With TIC I agree that "...They (contollers) are just not plug and play there is a little work need to make work with different machines...".

If done cleverly and properly, I contend that such work could/would/should consisting merely of popping in different proms and parameters (Fanuc method) and/or different proms and floppy with software (BPT method). The code logic should be strong enough to NOT need to be rewritten unless someone wants something REAL special - I don't consider turning, spacing and/or threading to be real special.

The brilliance of a good design is in its flexibility and adaptability to its operating environment over time. Looks like something other than good design and programming was responsible for Bridgeport's demise and their failure to gain more market share with their PC based BMDC "system".

Yet current mill controllers have trouble with lathes and 2006 PC's can't do what 1995 versions could. Yep, they sure can't do stuff like they used to anymore. I can't for the life of me understand why not....

I retrofitted a Hardinge HC CNC lathe that had an old bandit control. The machine was working OK with the bandit control, but I had the same problem as you have. Dealing with old electronics and an awkward control (compared with what Mach3 can do.) This lathe runs fully automatic with 10 feet power bar feed and an 8 post tool turret.

Here is a brief description of what I did and how much it coasted:

I used a PC with two parallel ports. I used two cnc4pc bidirectional boards (that I make and sell). The second one was set to use pins 2-9 for input, so I had a total of (5+13) 18 pins for input, and (12+4) 16 pins for output. The cost of these cards is $26 each. I also used an A4 Power supply (that I also sell) for providing 5 and 12vdc that is used to power all the circuits. These power supply costs around $29.

I used the original power supply and motors, but, replaced the tach and resolves with E2 2000CPR encoders for x axis and 1000 CPR for y axis. These encoders are about $32 each. I also replaced the old drivers with G302 from Geckodrive, this cost $114 each. I also replaced the stepper driver that runs the motor for the tool turret with a G201, also costs $114.

I replaced the nice 500CPR encoder that was mounted on the spindle with a C3 - Index pulse card (that I also sell). This card costs $16. With this index pulse I am able to thread and run a closed loop cycle on my spindle. I replaced the awkward speed control with a Hitachi VFD that costs $330, and also used the C6 – Variable Speed control board (that I sell). This board costs $27. With this board you configure your spindle just as you would a step and direction driver, and with the index pulse feedback you have 100% control of your spindle’s speed.

I also replaced the mechanical home switches with the same Index pulse card that I used on the spindle. That way I get a very accurate homing. For the turret home I still used the original mechanical relay that came with the machine. There is no need for precision here, since the turret has a turret lock that holds the turret in place.

I also used the C5 – Solid State Relay Board (that I sell for about $46) to control; turret lock, coolant pump, collect closer and power bar feed, and the cut-off tool.

I also use a C4 – Safety Charge Pump (that I sell for $17) to control the system along with the e-stop switch.

I also installed a 150CPR encoder from us digital (about $32) that acts as a manual pulse generator.

The only thing that I miss from the old control was the speed of the servos. In terms of control I lost nothing and gained lots of features. I currently plan on installing proximity switches to program tool checks o other things. The total investment was extremely low compared to the benefits that I achieved.

Arturo Duncan
http://cnc4pc.com

Dear Arturo:

You ENTIRE episode is pretty much what I was looking to do...

Except,

I really need to retain the servos because of both the speed and torque they produce = I need to retain their capability to even hope to machine the cam lobe shapes we're looking to cut. More importantly, I have a squeaking tight budget and servo replacement is not on it.

I've yet to find a system that will interface servo feedback to a PC via an aftermarket based retrofit system outside of the "suspects" already mentioned - the OEM BMDC system doesn't count.

Moreover, and pursuant to other posts AND exchanges with the folks at Mach, they can't/won't deal with servo position feedback anytime soon either.

What I'd consider to be "performance deficiency issues" have already been reported/discussed with the "suspect" candidates.

EVERYTHING else on the 3 machines is prewired and ready (IE: 10 hp DC spindle drive, shaft, encoders, limits/prox switches, output/ladder logic relay cards, servos, etc) - the only work I was limit my involvement with dealt with connections inside the control cabinet to duplicate the features I have - I'm not trying to get greedy or create an all new machine.

Musing: the now emerging brilliance of the defunct BMDC card is/was the fact that it did all the interfacing on a lowly ISA card that ran on a DOS system.

The downside of the BMDC is/was that it used analog +/-10vdc to provide speed and direction output to the servo amps - a technique that is pretty much osolete I'm told. Too bad it isn't aftermarket available and interfaceable with contemporary Galil/Gecko/Rutex drives.... Talk about a one card, drop in CNC!!!

If I were in a different position, the Mach/CNC4PC solution would be QUITE viable and definitely appealing.

Thanks for the reply/contribution.

PS: I hope it does not appear that I'm "whining". In retrospect, this thread has dealt heavily and it detail with two not so often discussed/attempted parts of CNC:

a. System integration planning
b. Lather retrofitting.

In view of what goes on with CNC milling, I simply figured a lathe retor would be just as easy. Clearly it isn't, and I have all the hard integration already DONE for me.

I hope the exchanges provided deeper guidance and insight to the super critical planning and investigation phase of CNC projects.

Like the Stones once said, "You can't always get what you want....blah blah blah.... just might find you'll get what you need..."

Starting to look like its time I need to move on with reviving what I have....

Interesting thread. Funny that others opinions of the Centroid lathe hack was exactly the same as mine! Dang how I wish I had known......

I do agree that there should be a basic format for controlling motion when it comes to lathes. They all turn, slide and sync. The external hardware might need some custom attention, but parameter based variables shouldn't be so locked up. Encoder feedback and servo amp drivers in terms of generic I/O still have standards that are non-proprietary. I am sure there can be a bit of a conspiracy in how OEM's want only their systems to integrate to knock out competition of mixed systems. As if the benefit of narrowly compatible technology is worth the exorbitant cost. Chances are with a low user base and short run product life, you will be replacing the whole system again when something does fail.

IMHO, the fastest way to kill a good thing is a tightly controlled closed book policy. They would rather sell a few systems at a highly inflated price than a gazillion systems at a widely available user affordable price. That is no way to gain or maintain market share to ensure the products future development, yet still support the older systems.


The same type of board CNC4Pc sells for under $50, Fanuc and others in commercial industrial sector would expect $200+.

The BPT PC based systems used the MB primarily as the buss communication for disk, display and com port path ways between these systems and the BMDC board. As a motion controller system, the PC MB board did nothing but supply power. The BMDC does all the real work.


DC

Note to DC: That's what bugs me about the BMDC

Essentially the same PLC card, same O/S (DOS no less) and same IO pins could run a lathe, mill or VMC with ultimately 4 axis and S and M switching too.

Best of all, it could do ALL THAT with only software change at PC end in concert with different flash of a PROM on the PLC end with a DOS O/S. Makes entirely too much sense.

Profitability??? Hmmm, same basic control card covered 95% of market. You simply throw generic magnetized floppys, lazer fried plastic crackers and/or electrified plastic coated silicon centepedes at it and charge for the "difficult upgrade"??? Sounds real profitable to me.

When I thought my BMDC went bad, I priced a new one. I nearly choked at a $1400 quote from Hardinge for a board with maybe $50 worth of hdwe. After seeing what Centroid and Camsoft want, that's cheap!!!

I'd buy a functionaly aftermarket one tomorrow especially if it could do what it did and with what it did it with (DOS and essentially a dead cheap PC and dual boot to Windows if you need to access LAN).

I"ve since learned that the creators of BMDC who's whereabouts are known either can't or won't ever resurrect it. Too bad as an aftermarket system would be a godsend to many a machine integrator and/or DIY CNC enthusiast...

Perhaps the local machine control engineer admitted a bit too much when his sales guy wasn't nearby, "yes, it is too simple and we can't make money doing simple stuff like that....".

Hmmmm. Make it complicated, razzle dazzle, fleece the customer. Don't they realize you can shear a sheep many times but only skin it once - especially if the potential victim knows what's going on????

Imagine. If somebody reverse engineered BMDC and came up with DIY-EZ-Mill (2D or 3D) or DIY-EZ-Turn (2D) or DIY-EZ-VMC (or 4 axis mill) code. This could be a "simple" aftermarekt or OEM package not unlike what which got so many machinists into CNC via the trusty Bridgeport machines.

Any sharp code writers out there who need help creating a business model that could set them up for a real laid back way to make a comfortable living selling tech toys??? If so, we need to talk...

As a maker of real high tech toys (racing cams) I can tell you that it is tremendous fun making people happy while concurrently making money doing so.

For my hardinge conversion I will be using Mack IV, a Gecko G100 motion controller, Yaskawa AC servos and amps, Skyko Pixie step/dir to analogue boards, 2hp Vector drive and MODIO board for control panel integration. I think in a year or so when MachIV and the G100 has matured it will be a viable solution for industrial retrofits. No more parallel ports to worry about and it shifts the real-time critical stuff off the PC. Using the Pixie you can keep your amps and servos. The pixie controls the PID loop which in my mind is no worse than having the motion controller do this. Unless you want to add additional glass scale feedback.

pstockly: Thanks for the reply.

My business plan is now easily 1-2 years behind schedule because of the issues I've gone thru with the lathe controls to date. I'm merely trying to stop the hemorage of $$$ and change these like new but flakey dated machines into cash generators as opposed to the money pits they've become.

Waiting another year for what is essentially "vaporware" is not a viable option. Perhaps for hobby use but the business I'm in can't wait for Mach to mature.

Sadly, what I want was already done nearly 10 years ago but never reached what I'll call 'aftermarket maturity' or availability.

And the folks who have used what "suspects" are available ALL reported what I'd call "incomplete development" glitches that I can't afford to become a party of...

Where IS an aftermarket BMDC when you want/need one????

Having been in the CNC industry since the 1970's, I have observed the trends and changes related to the control phylosophy, As as retrofitter, one of the things on MY wish list is a good DOS based control using a card like Galil, or Acroloop.
But having seen a couple of manufactures go through designing something along these lines, this is what I believe happened.
Galil and Acroloop were both designing a DOS based system around their cards.
This would be approx. mid 80's, Acroloop did in fact design a DOS based system which originally was intended for Gas/Plasma Gantry, and were sucessfull in marketing this to large manuf. like MG systems and others.
They extended this to a mill package, but due to managment short-sightedness did not market in the proper way, or work on a lathe package, due they said to (no market demand), I believe that had they been doing this at this time, with the exposure they could obtain due to the explosion of internet marketing, it may have taken off.
I believe both Galil and Acroloop fell victim to the unmistaken belief that people were averse to DOS and either dropped the DOS product or as with Acroloop came up with a WIN version.
Acroloop have now been taken over by Parker, which employed a company to produce a MILL Win version based around the card, which if I have to purchase servo's and amps as well as the system, it is no cheaper than a full blown Mitsubishi system.
I have two Excello mills in my shop that have Acroloop DOS Mill software and although it has a couple of small bugs still, it has/had real potential if they had stuck with it and completed development and gone to the next step with a lathe package, they even have four on board PLC's.
I agree that DOS has all the power you need for a CNC HMI, the card does the rest,
I personally do not see the advantage of using Windows to run a CNC machine.
Al.

Al: The Centroid guy (and others) indicated that, yes, they did a DOS version which I specifically asked for. He wouldn't/couldn't sell it anymore because "they can't get ISA controller cards made anymore" and "DOS doesn't support PCI". "Can't get?" or "won't make?" - big difference...

Some programmers told me the reason so many use Windows anymore is because so much stuff is canned as part of Windows development tools - call the driver or do a rewrite of a generic one and, wah lah, you're done (at least as far as dll/drivers go.

With DOS, things are a bit tougher (especially memory management - only 640k ) and I don't believe they even teach DOS in computer science anymore.

Hmmm. Do they still teach multiplacation tables or have calculators replaced that need???? The guys who did the BMDC figured out how to get around the 640K DOS limit and did 3 axis simultanous motion too....

When I was looking at Anilam, they confided that their system was 'based' on a DOS backplane but, alas, it is still proprietary. Sadly Anilam simply wasn't affordable - more stuff needed replacement, too.

The point of fact is this: the computer industry (not the CNC industry) is driving this Windows crap. BPT proved that you DON'T need fancy DLL's and ehternets and usb's to machine parts.

Unfortunately, DOS and the ISA's are gone and you have to use Win to access PCI. Wonder why Win can and othe stuff can't???

People who sold/support my cam design and measurement software regularly try to get me to buy their latest and greatest XP versions. Yet, asside from "better graphics", it doesn't do a single DESIGN or the basic INSPECTIONS one tiny bit better or DIFFERENT than my old DOS stuff.

Moreover, to "upgrade to XP", I'd have to toss my computers (at least 4), replace my Heidenhein inspection cards ($1500 min plus the linear and rotary encoders which may or may not work with new PCI card), buy new software ($thousands upon thousands as all have Office suites), deal with XP (4 computers), and spend many many hours reformatting all my old designs into the new formats required by the new software. Easily over $20k and for what???

NOT ONE BIT OF IMPROVEMENT in my ability to design or inspect cams. And the point of doing this is what??? (other than to put more hard earned cash into someone else's pocket).

Yes, when you set up a network for downloads and file transfers, you're beyond DOS - until unless somebody wrote a bridge program that could would communicate enough to transmit files. If I can get to the internet albeit slowly with win 3.11, I should be able to do file transfer via laplink or something reasonable. They used to connect to networks with win 3.11 or, frankly, it isn't hard to run a dual boot DOS 6.22/Win 98SE system and boot what you need to when you need to.

For some things, you simply DON'T need the latest and greatest whatever - CNC is one such process.

The fact that they STILL sell an essentially UNCHANGED Bridgeport mill with the same fidentical eatures it had 10 years ago, should tell the folks in the machine tool industry SOMETHING about tried and true equipment performance!!!

PS: from what I learned about my Bridgeport Eztrak via various tune-ups, the only reason Haas does the business they do with their "tool room mill" is because of Bridgeport NOT spending a few bucks on their tried and true mill - and the neighbor's Haas doen't use Windows.

This is all about that something is disappeared beyond the horizon and nothing has replaced it. If I were to make CNC machines the PC would be my last choice. It's nice for program management, but not for real time control. And the lacking of in- and outputs. There are too many hard- and software layers.

So were did they go? I googled "PC104", "PC104 servo" and this could be a way they went. These are long term, simple and expandable systems. Just looking for a few minutes I conclude that there must be a working CNC program on this platform.

Carel

This is all about that something is disappeared beyond the horizon and nothing has replaced it. If I were to make CNC machines the PC would be my last choice. It's nice for program management, but not for real time control. And the lacking of in- and outputs. There are too many hard- and software layers.


I think this is more of using the PC as a HMI etc as a base for Motion control Cards which are self contained, even to the point of PLC inclusion.
There are present commercial systems like Cinncinnati that are using the Siemens PC based control running under NT.
Al.

Has anyone HAD luck with a servo based, non-LPT port CNC lathe retrofit that WORKS and works like it is supposed to?????????


Interesting read on the rest of this thread. I agree with many of the points made. Howerver, my choice was to either toss very good machines with dying controls or upgrade them. Had to go with what's available today.

I've went with Camsoft on two lathes and a mill. (Mazak M4 22" x 72" twin turret, Hardinge CHNC turret, and Excello knee mill)I plan on doing another mill this winter (Cinncinnatti bed mill with 30 ATC). Once running, Camsoft is a beatiful control. I haven't found anything it can't do. Camsoft has the architechure Al-the-man likes, Galil card doing all the real time work. I've found XP to not be a problem at all.

That said, this is a very complex control to install with a steep learning curve, lots of gotchas. The hours I've put in have been beyond excessive. (Maybe I'm just dumb) I'm lucky they (Camsoft) have great tech. support.

Just my 2 cents.

Karl

This is all about that something is disappeared beyond the horizon and nothing has replaced it. If I were to make CNC machines the PC would be my last choice. It's nice for program management, but not for real time control. And the lacking of in- and outputs. There are too many hard- and software layers.

If you are taling about using computers parallel port I sort of agree. It is fine for the DIY shop not what I would use for a production machine.
Now if you are talking about PC-Based controller cards I disagree. I good PC-Based controller card does not use the computers CPU for anything other than the user interface for the card. All the logic to drive the machine is handled by the CPU on the controller card itself. These card also have plenty of I/O. Most of these card can also run stand alone if wanted.
Ron

I know about plug-in controller cards. It's only where you place the communication bottleneck. It can be IN the PC over ISA(obsolete as PC-card) or PCI (limited and dedicated). If you connect to a dedicated controller over a whatever cable the choice and availability is greater. I remembered PC104 (which is ISA-based) and if you look at assortment and pricing, it's amazing. And yes, first page for "PC104 Servo": a dedicated 4-axis servo control with all the knobs and handles. My answer concerned (industrial) availability and approach.

Carel

Ron:

What you're describing was the foundation of my rant in posts 19 and 23 above. The BMDC card did EXACTLY that.

1 card with proper PROMS and floppyware would run a lathe, mill or VMC, and in a 486 DOS generic PC m/b with ISA - in 1995.

Parallel ports have been the saviour of the DIY interfacers since the inception of the PC. Sadly, "modernization" of the PC into an XP (can't call it a PC anymore cuz it ain't PERSONAL, it's WINTEL's version of a "integrated CPU"). Going thru a parallel port just isn't viable for a high end DIY machine that is doing industrial work. The "not real time issues" with parallel ports on the new XP machines are now well documented.

With respect to speed: let's get real. Computers can outrun ANY iron. Simple machine dynamics and lathe/mill spindle speed & HP limits won't let you burn thru steel at 200"/min.

In my case, I have 3 lathes and 1 grinder. I can turn stuff at least 6 times faster than I can rough and finish grind. So no need to run the lathes until they smoke - heck they don't even have to get warm. Set up as needed, let them run. One guy could EASILY run 3 machines. Talk about productivity....

The goal here is to make parts using the machine to do the cutting path direction. Networking? We can burn CD's that have more capacity than the original HD's. My "network" involves hand carrying a disk of plastic in an A/C'd shop from my CAD box, by foot, and loaded via CDROM to the recipient. How taxing can that be???

Maybe GM needs a super wazoo network to get from Detroit TEch Center but but in a 3 man, 2000 sq ft shop, footwork works quite adequately. And using "free" computers helps save the environment and unclutter the landfills.

Could one of you guys explain in detail the problem with centroid/ajax on a lathe, as i have a kit i was just about to start installing. I have an ajax controlled mill and it works great. Thanks Todd

Try re-reading post #2 for starters....

Somewhere's else I go into a rant about them telling me that my 90 volt DC, 12 amp brushed servos can't be driven by their 140 volt, 15 amp brush type servo amps...see post #3

They also promised a call back with info nearly two weeks ago and still waiting. Their e-mail sent at/about the same time remains unanswered.

Shizzlemah furthe explained somewhere about faulty logic that resuted in the lathe tossing a billet(s) out of the machine - seems a GOOD mill controller doesn't necessarily make even an average lathe controller even though it really should.

Support??? Talk to Shizzlemah... A year to switch X+ and X-. Talk about DUH.

Forewarned is forearmed.

This is a crowd of close knit, communicative lot of people who, thankfully exchange info in what has to be percieved as an honest fashion. Interestingly, no one from either of the mentioned vendors has graced us with comments, explanations or even P/M's.

If that is an indication of their "service", I'm glad I found out before I spent the $$$$. Considering I was looking at doing 3, the research and response associated with this thread has saved me a lot of time and $$$ in dealing with issues I'd rather not get involved with....

In light of the scarcity of lathe retorfits, yours might be a good one to document. I'd be glad to contribute where I could (morale support and/or tech help). I'm sure the other members would likewise oblige. The cleansing effect of the light of day shining on the adventures of a lathe retrofit may be good for the industry.... not the least of which would be your state of mind.

Wanna bet you'll get some great support???

This is a crowd of close knit, communicative lot of people who, thankfully exchange info in what has to be percieved as an honest fashion. Interestingly, no one from either of the mentioned vendors has graced us with comments, explanations or even P/M's.

Well it could at least be discussed under this venders forum. See what happens If you try it in the other venders forum.

Darek

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ToneV8 = your lathe appears to be a well equipped one with a geared drive. About the only thing you could affix a CNC to would probably be the tool feed and perhaps the cross feed, it it isn't already driven by the gear system.

This particular retrofit thread involved the retrofitting of a new control onto a lathe that was ALREADY FITTED with a CNC controller. Reason: to update a 1979 dated lathe.

There is a big difference in the scope of work involved between what this thread involved versus what you want to do. In light of this, perhaps it would be better for you in your case to start a new thread.

Be forewarned, however, that there is much less interest/activity in lathe retrofits as opposed to mill retrofits - especially one like you want to do. Thus, you may not get a lot of help in a quick fashion.

Just joined website, havent had a chance to read alot of threads yet, but decided to post and introduce myself. I'm a rep for Centroid , same hardware as AJAX. Will try and answer any questions I can. I do retrofits with them , have for many years. Have used other controls and work on other controls all the time , My main work is repair and service of CNC's. The AJAX control is a good control ,very reliable and has great software, but is geared towards do - it -yourselfer and is not much for support. Centroid is more geared towards full systems and has more support but at a higher cost.
I have put Centroid controls on 5T's with much success, you can use old motors and encoders but not old drives. Old drives run on a velocity command and Centroid outputs torque command and at present cant be changed. So you must use there drives or use someone elses drive that accepts a 0-10V torque command. You could use your 90v motors with there DC drive , but be noted thate you stand a chance of damaging motor by having too high of a BUS voltage going to motor. Also need to know the inductance of your motor. Most older fanuc controls have a PLC ladder burnt into EPROMS and must be taken care of in new control, the chance of a total plug and play system by anybody is not likely without some customation done beforehand, every machine is different and every circumstance must be thought out by ladder PLC. Any AJAX questions I'd be happy to try and answer when I have time - right now business is booming and my free time is at a premium, so I'll check on board when I get chances.

WTF is a torque command ? Position perhaps ?!

WTF is a torque command ? Position perhaps ?!

Modern amplifiers operate in the Torque mode or sometimes refered to as current mode.
The older analogue drives operated in the velocity mode (tach feedback).
The ±10v signal is directly related to a current output.
The feedback is usually solely by encoder back to the CNC controller.
Al.

Dear Arr5ow Control:

Please go back and re-read posts 2, 3, 4, 6, 18 and perhaps 31.

The folks on this message board rate anywheres between expert and novice and anyting and everything inbetween.

When a degreed engineer like me comes along and wants to buy 3 Ajax systems, has experience with 5vdc, 12vdc, 24vdc and 120vac or 220vac or 440vac three phase power and control circuits and can readily do retrofits (totally rewired the control wires from dead 5T's that now run) it is pretty hard to swallow what your phone sales rep tried to feed me re: the adaptablity of the Ajax/Centroid to a Fanuc 5T.

I advised that I had 90vdc motors that drew 12- 15 amps - "they won't work with our amplifiers".

I advised that I had 2000ppr ENCODERS, not resolvers - "won't work, you need new encoders" DUH, why????

I'm well aware of the APC06 on the 5T chip and the flakey a$$ velocity system in the Fanuc 5T (thats a reason why I was looking to add your PC and servo amps and remove the dated Fanuc stuff entirely).

It does not take a rocket scientist to take the 3 phase isolated AC power to the 5T servo amp, add a rectifier bridge and a capacitor to make DC suitable to drive my DC servos - you can't convice me that your DC servo amps would never know the difference if I did....

Re: too high a bus voltage. There are voltage taps on the isolation transformer to adjust the voltage to nearly whatever you want - my system was an international model and if you ended up with 110vdc, reset the tap to a lower turns ratio and problem solved. If you retrofited 5T's, you or the folks at Centroid should already KNOW that.

PROM lader logic - sorry, that doesn't wash. My 5T has ALL the Fanuc signals dumped out to a huge relay lader logic board. You could run the darn thing with push buttons it you could push them fast enough or in the right sequence - in fact that's all the 5T does at its outputs - trigger PCB mounted relays. if your ladder logic worked and put out the appropriate signal via NO/NC relays, my system would never know the difference.

Spindle speed - simple D-A converter. Give the spindle drive a voltage and a direction via closed relay, off it goes.

The problems cited by previous customers who were clearly less than satisfied with the Ajax product, including parts that got spit out of the machine and/or spindles that ran backwards for a year, combined with the less than learned response the Ajax phone rep finally persuaded me to look elsewheres... This was only reinforced by the less than stellar experiences by other customers who were kind enough to post.

I could afford 3 chunks of retrofit systmes at $2500 or so each. I could NOT affort the "starts at $7k retrofit per machine" the Ajax guy tried to get me to buy. Classic bait and switch con if you ask me. That or else poorly trained phone sales guy who should probably be responding to internet requests for sales info. By the way, the info I asked for via the website and via the guy on the phone STILL have never got here.

You'll also not that asside from you, NOBODY from Ajax or Centroid chimed in to help or straighten things out. Maybe the shoe fit TOO well....

Sorry for the venomous reply but the phone guy's attitude and information were an outright insult. The experiences of the other users of Centroid/Ajax products who were kind enough to respond said volumes that ultimately solidified my decision against purchasing the Ajax or Centroid systems.

Bottom line: cavear emptor when it comes to lathe retrofits.

They are NOT in the category of a mill retrofit and for the life of me, I can't see why a generic "ladder" logic couldn't be developed to get you going in a psuedo plug and play mode.

Control logic is all NO/NC relays, 12 or 24vdc and/or +/-10 dircetion/speed signals. Pretty elementary stuff. The fancy stuff could readily come later, and at a price, of course.....

Maybe in a later post, I'll let you know how I really feel....

Shizzlemah:

In a Motion Science servo amp like that in an Ezpath or Eztrak, torque is hard limited by a current sense circuit in the servo amp.

You can ask for FULL speed, 100% duty cycle via the speed command but if the motor asks for more current than the preprogrmammed limit, it will either fold back current on a pulse by pulse basis or put the whole system into shutdown via an error signal back to the PC.

There is NOT a velocity feedback in these systems, only a position feed back from the motor directly to the PC. Current/torque is limited by the amp itself.

...but probably not today.

I did a milling machine conversion using picosystems controllers (see: http://www.pico-systems.com). That's about $300 for the controller plus $100 per axis if I recall correctly. The controller can support up to four servo amps. One of the four channels could be used for speed control. This would be a very cost effective solution for you.

Unfortunately, lathe support is still in it's early stages with EMC. But I believe that threading has just been made to work. I suggest that you subscribe to the EMC user list and state your requirements there. The list is populated by a group of dedicated volunteers. I believe that some of the members also do retrofits.

You might wind up being the catlyst that gets lathe support to be useful.

I'd understand if you didn't want to get involved with that. But at least the cash risk is relatively small.

Ken

Shizzlemah:

In a Motion Science servo amp like that in an Ezpath or Eztrak, torque is hard limited by a current sense circuit in the servo amp.
There is NOT a velocity feedback in these systems, only a position feed back from the motor directly to the PC. Current/torque is limited by the amp itself.
This refers to current limit, I believe arr5ow was refering to torque control, if you do a search for transconductance amplifier it should give a clearer explanation, this is current out directly related to a voltage in,
A transconductance amplifier outputs a current (torque) proportional to its input voltage.
Al.

Okay, I guess, it seems like a silly description. There is of course a current limit, and IV does result in torque.

But how is that different than any of the common platforms? The centroid uses a plain jane encode feedback.


NC CAMS - a centroid hack literally was screaming at me once that of course I must be able to reuse my encoders. They were selling a package to refit a machine ONLY available with resolvers. And became belligerent when I said I didn't have encoders. "Well how is it gonna work without encoders ?!" Yeah, well, um I guess you are a well skill tradesman. Maybe you can show me how to get solitaire on the system...

BTW, 2 yrs and I still havent got my unlock codes. Centroid wont help since I bought it from a dealer. Dealer is a tool and kept my money but generates lots of excuses.

The Centroid does use encoder feedback , as long as encoder has A / A* B / B* Z / Z* , works on 5V and has a decent pulse count >1000 . There motion control card outputs its servo commands out a fiber optic cable which goes directly into there servo drive, You can use ther OPTIC1 card to take the fiber signal and convert it to a 0 to +- 10V torque command. the motion control card will output a signal that relates to current not velocity/speed. If the control senses it is out of postion it will increase current output until it is satisfied. If during a rapid move once machine has caught up to control the current output will pull back down, whereas on a velocity system it would stay up.

[QUOTE=NC Cams]Dear Arr5ow Control:


I advised that I had 90vdc motors that drew 12- 15 amps - "they won't work with our amplifiers".

I advised that I had 2000ppr ENCODERS, not resolvers - "won't work, you need new encoders" DUH, why????

It does not take a rocket scientist to take the 3 phase isolated AC power to the 5T servo amp, add a rectifier bridge and a capacitor to make DC suitable to drive my DC servos - you can't convice me that your DC servo amps would never know the difference if I did....

Re: too high a bus voltage. There are voltage taps on the isolation transformer to adjust the voltage to nearly whatever you want - my system was an international model and if you ended up with 110vdc, reset the tap to a lower turns ratio and problem solved. If you retrofited 5T's, you or the folks at Centroid should already KNOW that.

PROM lader logic - sorry, that doesn't wash. My 5T has ALL the Fanuc signals dumped out to a huge relay lader logic board. You could run the darn thing with push buttons it you could push them fast enough or in the right sequence - in fact that's all the 5T does at its outputs - trigger PCB mounted relays. if your ladder logic worked and put out the appropriate signal via NO/NC relays, my system would never know the difference.

Spindle speed - simple D-A converter. Give the spindle drive a voltage and a direction via closed relay, off it goes.
*****************************************************
Not sure why you were told Motors and encoders wont work - they will.
I cant answer for what you were told just will be happy to answer what ever I can.

I am fully aware of the servo transformes ability to have taps changed , the only thing that would affect on the Centroid drive - is they are expecting a higher voltage coming in and if you drop the voltage too much it will trip an undervoltage alarm. Possibly system could be ordered with modified resistors to trip at a lower voltage. Other than that a lower voltage is fine.

Spindle speed out of fanuc controls are actually 12 bits, The Centroid outputs an analog 0-10 out of the PLC to run spindle - it is only + though , so spindle would have to be able of reversing off an input as opposed to speed command going - . If the spindle drive uses the 12 bits and converts it with a D/A in drive ,then Centroid can be built with a card to provide those 12 bits - I actually was one who setup Centroid with info to do this.

Most all 5T controls did have a ladder burnt into chips, some systems were made with all the ladder functions outside the control on a relay board. The Fanuc then would just output M / T codes M11/12/14/18/21/22/24/28 ect and relay panel had to decode them and handle finish codes. The Centroid does not output these codes in BCD format as FANUC did. But with some programming in control could simulate it. My opinion has always been it is best to remove that relay panel and do it all in software for a reliability issue.

You goal of a 2-4K cost system is pretty low and would be tuff to accomplish

What kind of a machine is it your trying to do?

Terry

One other thought about your servo motors , you never said what size the other one was. One was a size 0 , if the other one was a 0 or 5 OK , If it is a size 10 / 20 /30 then it runs on a higher voltage and since AJAX lowest cost drive is a 3 axis combined all axis must have same voltage.

Mr. Arr5ow Conrol: meet Mr. Shizzlemah, an obviously well satisfied Centroid customer.

Mr. Shizzlemah: your experiences were not wasted. I for one was inordinately thankful that you chimed in on this thread. You definitely saved me from reliving your experience(s). THANKS!!!! Ditto to others who conveyed their less than stellar experiences with lathe retrofits.

Mr. Lerman: and the world is replete with software that is full of promises but lacking on performance. By the way, have you by any chance met Shizzlemah???

He can vouch for the fact that even high buck machine control systems don't always do what they purport to being able to do. At least EMC would have been a lower cost disappointment as opposed to a high buck one. That would surely have beem a nice consolation...

The ONLY problem I have as a business owner with DIY/user supported/developed/open source systems is that when a machine doesn't work - I need service.

I simply can't rely or count on random support from a message board or development in process by what is essentially a hobby enterprise.

"Eventually it will work" features lists are neat to day dream by. Surely, DIY hobbiests can tolerate this -a functioning business simply can't.

It is bad enough that we all have had to deal with bug and security festooned software from Redmond (for decades now) that STILL isn't fully developed and/or bug free. Perhaps the trouble with computer software people is that they deal too much with cyberware and virtual reality.

A system crash to them is a rebootable inconvenience. A system crash for me that causes a CNC to botch up a cam billet or spit it out of the lathe could result in a $3000 boat anchor made out of tool steel - or severe bodily harm or death. BIG difference!!!

Cyberjunk versus expensive REAL junk in metal. Big difference. Perhaps EMC will someday do what it hopes to be able to do. Until then, it is as much vaporware as there ever has been created. If the folks who came up with it REALLY believed in it, they'd turn it into a real business instead of an iteresting hobby.

Until the creators become committed to the task by turning it into a real business, it remainds a part of what I call the irresponsible triumvirate:

The software guy blames the O/S guy who blames the hardware guy who blames the software guy for a NC malfunction when the stuff doesn't work.

Sadly, my customers won't buy the comuter industry's equivalent to "the dog ate my homework" excuses. Anyway, its about time to go kick the Fanuc 5T to wake it back up.

At least when it isn't suffering from old age and/or costing me small fortuns in cash therapy to keep it going, it does what it's supposed to do....

IF I weren't so fed up with the way the Japanese do business and the costliness of anything that has Fanuc written on it, I'd buy another one. sadly, my financial status in life relagates me to the lot I'm in in life and will just have to get bye as best I can with what I've got....

Oh for a cheap, reliable DOS based system that would simply WORK. There is charm in stuff that is clunky and reliable. Sadly, it falls into the 'no longer supported' pile of stuff that would still readily satisfy a LOT of the needs of many tight budgeted CNC'ers.

Arr5ow: The 3 systems in my shop are idential turn key Cadillac NC lathes with Fanuc/GN contols - 1979 vintage. Model 0 servos - full factory package CNC that is simply old. I"m tired of messing with it and was looking for a simple control, ala my DOS based Eztrak system that still does everything I need it to do.

You'd think that nearly 30 years after it (5T) was created, one could buy a contemporary computer that could would run it. All you need is to interface to the output relay ladder (it works and is was developed, so why change it???).

Output a voltage signal t0 the spindle, give it a closed relay direction signal and off it goes. Sadly, that's seems to be too hard. I don't need Windoze, I don't need multi-tasking, I don't need a LAN - my programs fit on a floppy for goodness sake.

All the lathes need to do is cut regularly spaced grooves into metal, over and over and over. With 3 lathes and 1 grinder, lathe thru-put is NOT my bottleneck. Hence, lightwarp cutting speeds are not essential.

Those familiar with Fanucs, especially 5T's, know that that EVERYTING in the cabinet is run off of its own isolated power multitap supply transformer. Each servo has its own transormer (2 in a lathe). It has to be this way due to the SCR driven AC direct to DC servo drives.

Thus, servo voltage is independantly adjustable as opposed to M/B as opposed to anything else. But as the Ajax website says, Ajax/Centroid has retrofitted Fanuc's so they already now that. Too bad they didn't teach it to the sales guy. His only mantra was 'it won't work'.

My DAC is just that: the Fanuc sends 8 or 12 digital bits (don't recall) to a separate D-A converter mounted to the side of the cabinet (aftermarket hang on) and a pure analog signal is then fed from it to the DC spindle drives (Randtronic or Cleveland Machine Control).

Apply voltage, close the relay, it runs CW or CCW. Can and did make spindle run with a 9V battery and a pair of clip leads. Too bad the Centroid can't - at least that's what the guy said on the phone.

All this info was supplied to the guy I talked to on the phone. He either didn't understand or his marching orders were to send folks like me over to Centroid or a dealer where they could make some REAL profit. BTW, still waiting for the local dealer to call which the sales guy said he'd arrange for. At this point, he needn't bother.

if Bridgeport could, in their infinite wisdom but poor business accument, come up with a DOS/PC based DX32 system that could run a lathe, mill, surface grinder and 4 axis VMC via a 386SX, 486 or Pentium 133 system in the mid/late 90's with an ISA card for goodness sake - that in many cases are still functioning today - why hasn't/can't somebody duplicate the effort in the way of an affordable and simple aftermarket machine control system???

Probably because it is "too simple-we can't make any money on it" (per the MDSI guy I talked to) and "nobody uses DOS anymore" that I"ve heard far too many times from computer geeks involed both in and outside the CNC industry.

Thanks for caring and trying to help. It's too bad the folks who's product you sell seemingly could care less about folks in my postion or with my needs/preferences.

I know the machine - Have worked on Cadillacs with 5T's before - many years ago though. Probably still have a set of prints somewhere in cabinets. They are simple , turret setup leaves much to be desired all work off air valves that are prone to failure. The DAC board mounted on side of control cabinet has a meter on it right? Also look and see if there is a sticker on side of cabinet that says Machine sequence controller. The 5T has 2 transformers in it - one for control and one for servos, the servo transformer has seperate secondaries - one for each axis.
All I can say is, if you want me to help I can..

Arr5ow: got all the prints on pretty much EVERYTHING. I'd be dead without them. Thanks for the offer of help. Sadly, if Centroid gave their new hires OJT via answering Ajax calls, they lost themselves the sale of probably 3 systems....

Asside from a flakey BTR which I've recounted my escapades with and developed sollutions for, I'm in pretty good shape until the next time the darn things develop Alzheimers.

My "indexable turret" is a 4 position device made by a local guy in Jackson, MI - sort of a Dorian knock off. Simple and works. Nothing but a relay and an air solenoid. Give it filtered air and 24vdc - anybody who does air operated solenoids w/o filtered air deserves the grief.

Simple machine for simple tasks is all I need. Until I find a simple controller that doesn't need ME to program crap or dodge parts because of bogus machine control logic, runs generic G codes, I'll live with what I have.

i'm looking into some legacy stuff I stumbled upon but that's a spare time deal that can simply wait. It seems too simple for it not to work - so I suspect some corporate decision out there will prevent it from happening or make it financially impossible. Technically, it is readily doable.

Again, thanks for caring and trying. If you're in the market for Centroid, it's guys like this who you need to find and do busines with... Good luck in doing so...

" fiber optic cable "

Yep that's a great feature for literature. Fiber optic link to the servo unit.

That doesn't do a darned thing if you are picking up RF on the keyboard cable... But it's nice to brag about. Hmn, let me try that here :

I am the only guy on the block with a fiber optic boat anchor!

I wonder if the machine tool ontrol guys even heard of FCC class B noise conformance. Probably not. This spec is why PC's work so well at home. Yet some retrofit guys kluge up the cabinets, run pulsed DC all over the place and don't even follow rudimentary practices with regard to noise containment.

Want to know why Fanuc stuff is SO expensive??? The cabinets are replete with MIL spec shielded connectors, grounds and all. Not a DB to be found at interconnection between machine and controller. And people wonder why DIY stuff goes nuts. Simple hodge podge kluge of home PC stuff grafted to noisely industrial hardware. A wonder it works at all!!!

What do you expect a 15 amp, 100 volt unshielded DC pulsed signal at 20 to 100Khz is going to a servo motor will to to unshielded 5 volt low current PC signales anywhere's nearby???

If you can't listen to a $3 transistor AM radio tuned for max noise across the band, don't expect your unshielded 5vdc computer signals to remain unaffected.

Don't tell me: the system vendor told you they never encountered THAT before??? Yeah, encounter this....