Ive been looking for a decent solution to the dust buildup Im getting in part of my workroom. I have no dust collection or exhaust system currently, and whenever I use my table saw, I get dust EVERYWHERE... The room almost fills with dust and I have to leave the room after a cut or two. My RF-45 clone is also in there, and I would prefer that it stayed clean...

I have looked at blowers from msc and grainger, but I am not really sure what I need.... I dont have a great spot to vent to either. Its a basement workroom, and the only way to get a duct outside would be to drill a 4-6" hole in a 10" beam that supports the house (not anxious to do that). I could run ducting to the other part of the workroom, but the ducting would have to be at least 20ft and I am not anxious to do that either...

This part of the workroom is roughly 15x15, but the boiler, hot water tank, oil heat tank, my mill, my table saw, a huge drill press, and some lumber occupy a lot of the space.

Any ideas for ventilating the room? Dust collection systems are not really what im looking for - I want to vent everything outside of the room.

Thanks, Danny

Dust collection is designed to capture the dust before it gets into the room. Once it's in the room, it's too late. Trying to vent the room will never do a really good job, as air flow will probably run from the room entrance, to the exhaust fan. Dust will still settle anywhere out if this direct path. And if you're only talking a 4-6" exhaust, I doubt it will get much at that. Imo, you'd be much better off trying to get the dust before it leaves the table saw. I have a small 1HP dust collector on my table saw, and you'd be amazed at how fast the bag will fill up. Without the dust collector, probably at least half of that dust would be spread throughout the room.

Having said that, it's very difficult to catch all the dust from a table saw, because maybe 20% will come out the top off the blade.

One other thing, dont ever cut a 4" hole in a support beam. :)

I have a slight problem with dust collection, because I tend to cut a decent amount of MDF, and it releases chemicals which are not really that healthy for you... Dust collection doesnt stop the toxic fumes...

Danny

Neither does no dust collection. Aren't the chemicals in the dust itself?

I am pretty sure when you cut MDF, it releases some sort of toxic fumes - not in large particles of dust, but smaller air born particles that dust collection systems cant trap.

I am pretty sure when you cut MDF, it releases some sort of toxic fumes...

I would suspect it'd be the binder, urea formaldehyde resin. Having said that, I don't know if that particular chemical is what's released, or how it's affected by the heat of cutting with power tools.

For information on dust collection, I'd strongly suggest looking at Bill Pentz's excellent site:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfm

If memory serves me right, he notes that many DCs are really just chip collectors, as the really dangerous (small) particles pass straight through the filters, and back into your workshop.

I work with MDF too, and I'm certain my DC is little more than a chip collector, so I always wear an MDF certified canister mask (and eye protection). You may end up looking like Darth Vader's brother, but you only get one pair of lungs.

the only way to get a duct outside would be to drill a 4-6" hole in a 10" beam that supports the house... ...I want to vent everything outside of the room.

sounds like you need to find another way out.

I would suspect it'd be the binder, urea formaldehyde resin. Having said that, I don't know if that particular chemical is what's released, or how it's affected by the heat of cutting with power tools.

For information on dust collection, I'd strongly suggest looking at Bill Pentz's excellent site:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfm

If memory serves me right, he notes that many DCs are really just chip collectors, as the really dangerous (small) particles pass straight through the filters, and back into your workshop.

I work with MDF too, and I'm certain my DC is little more than a chip collector, so I always wear an MDF certified canister mask (and eye protection). You may end up looking like Darth Vader's brother, but you only get one pair of lungs.



That REALLY is an excellent site - I have a lot more reading to do, but thought I would post back here.

I am not sure what Im going to do yet, but I appreciate all the responses, and Ill post back when I start to build my system. 3000 heads are better than me and my dad :cheers:

Thanks for all the replys,

Danny

i'ld suggest a shopvac on all machines with dustprobs

i guess you should be able too solve the chemicals prob by changing the dustfilter on your vac too a more suitable one that will trap smaller particles also i know that at my local vacshop(shop that sells only vacs and rlateds)got some pretty specific filters varying from particle too sandingdust and so on getting more expensive as the particles too be filtered get smaller that should keep your shop from being covered and a respitory protection is always recommendable when working with mdf,particle board and so on

Hi Danny

The Pentz site is great. I have also found a set of plans in shopnotes issue 13 for a cyclone that is slightly smaller than the pentz plans if you are cramped for overhead space. I could send them to you if you like, if you can handle a 24Meg attachment (the're larger than I can attach here and I would get a firm talking to about violating copyright if I posted them here). I could also try making it smaller.

It's modular if you need to break it down and move it around and they have plans for a fine particle post cyslone filter too using #10 cotton duck (available at most material shops and art supply stores).

Steven

Actually, I would love those plans - I am still trying to get a system into my workshop. You have a PM!!!

Danny :cheers:

Based on the mini cyclone available at www.clearvuecyclones.com I had a go at making one myself (from bits I had in the workshop).

It makes quite a number of compromises to the design - namely using 4" pipe inside a 6" cylinder (made by heating some perspex sheet with a heat gun!)

The red bit is part of a scavenged traffic cone!

It's very much a bodge job; made to see if this stuff really works. The answer is yes, though you can see from the video that some dust spirals the wrong way around the outlet tube. I'm sure this is because the tubes are way too big for the cylinder size.

Having said that - it does do a good job of separating dust. In the video, I'm throwing handfuls of wood dust into the inlet, and at the end, there was only a fine sprinkling on the bottom of my dust extractor bin.

It's certainly made me interested in making a slightly bigger one, but Bill's design is too big for my little workshop. Sdantonio - I've sent you a PM, and would love a copy of the cyclone plans!

http://spikyfish.com/cyclone/tube1.jpg
http://spikyfish.com/cyclone/tube2.jpg
http://spikyfish.com/cyclone/cyclone1.jpg
http://spikyfish.com/cyclone/cyclone2.jpg

The video is over 11MB, and 'on its side', as I was using my digital camera in portrait mode (not really suited to recording video).

http://spikyfish.com/cyclone/running.avi

I too would love the plans

here's what I was planning on using [this] (http://www.allinonewood.com/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=822&ps_session=d106208b509529141f0bb3d79e13c551) [only in a larger version]plumbed right onto the z axis with a positionable vac head to reduce the amount of dust right at the source. I don't want to have to shoot the air outside for two reason's, the first is.. in time your yard will look pretty trashy.. and second, you shoot lots of waste heat outside.. [ or cool air for you hotter climate folk's].

Its another option.. I'm curious to learn more about these cyclones as well..

Jerry

In the case of the plans I have, I have asked my girlfriend to put it up on the server (she owns the server) and I will post a link to it here. It should be up by tomorrow.

Steven

Please pass on our thanks to her

OK guys, after at least one false start (my fault not hers) the dust collector plans are finally online

http://cruzanengineering.net/steven/dustcollector.pdf

Steven

thanks for that I I really like the other two projects

on a side issue do you have planes for building a band saw?

Steven - many thanks for the plans.

I don't doubt one of Bill's designs will be better, but it looks like the one you've posted will (just) fit within my ceiling height.

A good extractor that fits is better than a great one that doesn't! ;)

It might be worth using those plans in conjunction with some of Bill's notes - adding a shelf in the inside that spirals down, and protruding the inlet pipe into the cylinder for reduced turbulance (if memory serves me rightly).

Another thought I had, after printing off the plans.. I noticed an 'optional' setup was to buy a commercial dust collector and use it for the 'fines' collection. In my airplane building days we always had this issue w/ fine dust coming outta the shop vac and getting everywhere.. you could never get a filter to catch this stuff.. what some people did was put the shop vac on a can, then they hooked the hose to a fitting on the side of the 'can'. Inside the can on the same fitting they ran a metal pipe down the side to the bottom of the can, and then across the bottom.. the the pipe had ton's of little 1/8" or so holes [could be even smaller and just more of them] starting about 12" from the top of the can and below.. right to the bottom. Then the can was filled w/ water.. the water pulled the dust out of the air and eliminated ALL fine dust.. no more problems.. you have to empty the can out every few days or weeks depending on how much you use it.. but maybe something like this could be done along w/ the cyclone? I'm tempted to try it.. once I get my machine running.. w/ some of these higher CFM blowers you might need a fair amount of holes/pipe but I think it would work as a muffler as well so there's another added advantage..

Jerry [ I'm thinking out loud here.. ;)]

After building the one from the plans it looks like a 6 inch inlet pipe will fit nicely into it, and with it being modular, it is east to just rebuild the cylindrical section and keep everything else as is.

The longer the cone, the better the sereration. Bill recomends a 1.6:1 cone:cylindar ratio. This one has a 1.1:1 ratio respectively, but still does a decent job at seperating. And I really loke the file particle filter section (no disposable parts or filters to clean).

Steven

on a side issue do you have planes for building a band saw?

Right now my sears 12 inch is still working, so no, not building one yet. But I have been looking on the web and found some guy who built a mill size recut bandsaw using two car tires as tracks-tires for his bandsaw and it was powered by what looks like a lawn mower engine. I do need to recut some stuff where I need a 20 inch clearance. But I only have to do it once every few years, so I think having a mill do it professionally may be the cheepest for that.

Jerry, interesting idea. If you implement it let us know how it works

Steven

BTW, if anyone wants to check out http://cruzanengineering.net (where the plans are housed) my girlfriend is the third largest manufacturer of heated motorcycle gear (for those of you who ride). I would say something here like "mention CNCzone or me and she'll give you a discount", but, in reality she would probably charge you more if you mentioned me :)

Steven

in reality she would probably charge you more if you mentioned me

definitely true love! she's a keeper for sure! ;)

Im planning on buying this dust extractor for down to .5 microns:
http://www.recordpower.co.uk/index.pl?p=RSDE1&a=i

Im also going to use this for .5 down to .1 micron:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5511

You can get tubing etc for your extraction system here:
http://www.recordpower.co.uk/index.pl?c=EXTRACTOR-ACCESSORIES

Regarding the Table Saw dust problem Im sure you can buy a blade guard like this or build one yourself:
http://www.nmauk.com/ixes/forsa7.html

These are informative links to look at with some valuable tables on the dangers of specific types of wood:
http://old.mendelu.cz/~horacek/toxic.htm
http://www.gvwg.ca/docs/Articles/WoodToxicity.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis30.pdf
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/oc/news/10thrc.htm
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/wooddust/

Im printing off the tables to post in my workshop. After reading about the carcinogenic dangers among others Im definately sorting out my dust extraction before I turn on one tool.

Jerry; regarding your out loud thinking a bit further up the thread Google 'wet dust collectors' and you will find plenty of links about using a water mist for very fine dust collection. It is a well established method.

Thanks Geof.. nice to know I'm not the only one thinking this way..!

I wonder how much mist is required to cut the dust... would a couple of those sprayer deal's w/ a pump circulating be enoug... I'll have to look into this farther... its too late right now, and I'm tired.. :)

Jerry

Hi, I've been reading the information on the site in post No. 6. Its very informative. I now realise Im also going to need a shop air filter. This one looks like it might do the job down to .1 micron. I'll stick it in the wall so its venting outside.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4849

I know everything I've listed is fairly expensive, but after reading the info I figure its not worth the risk to skimp on this stuff. I figure I'll only pay for it once, then wont have to worry about it for 10 years.

Hi, I've been reading the information on the site in post No. 6. Its very informative. I now realise Im also going to need a shop air filter. This one looks like it might do the job down to .1 micron. I'll stick it in the wall so its venting outside.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4849

I know everything I've listed is fairly expensive, but after reading the info I figure its not worth the risk to skimp on this stuff. I figure I'll only pay for it once, then wont have to worry about it for 10 years.

The unit in the link you give has a sentence that more or less points out its futility: "The time delay shut-off can be set for up to 7-1/2 hours in 1/2 hour increments to effectively clean your shop after you leave"

In other words you work away in a cloud of dust that is filtered out while you are not there. These units are very useful for preventing the very fine dust settling out onto the floor and all the equipment overnight but are not much use in giving any protection to someone working in the room.

Once the dust is in the air, it's too late to bother. You need to get it all at the source.

...In other words you work away in a cloud of dust that is filtered out while you are not there. These units are very useful for preventing the very fine dust settling out onto the floor and all the equipment overnight but are not much use in giving any protection to someone working in the room.

Hence the purpose of the triton powered respirator. :)

Once the dust is in the air, it's too late to bother. You need to get it all at the source.

Any suggestions, I cant see how this would be possible for all types of equipment?

Any suggestions, I cant see how this would be possible for all types of equipment?

A mixture of good, purpose made dust hoods, and, according to Bill Pentz, sufficient air flow to capture as much of the dust as possible.

The gist I get from Bill's site is that most extraction systems sold to hobbyists lack the air flow to get the job done.

But you're right, for some pieces of equipment it's certainly difficult. Again, I think Bill's site has some drawings of dust hood designs.

There are a couple of good extractors at this site although probably not economical with exchange rates and postage for anyone outside Europe.

For referance I e-mailed them and the D800 Unit DustFilter Solution costs £ 853.00 + VAT (Ex Works).

http://www.airplants.co.uk/

A friend of mine has a air purifier (filtration) system in his shop that he say has been a godsend. I don't remember the details, but I believe it is made by portercable. It's a large boxlike thing, probably at least 4 ft on edge, suspended from the ceiling that I assume just endlessly recirculates the shop room air through a filter continually scrubbing the air.

The first time I saw it I assumed it was one of those big box heaters you see in a lot of garages and warehouses. At least, that's what it looks like.

Might be worth looking into.

Steven