I'm the only person at my place that does Diamond Machining. I do it quite well... in fact so well that orders are ramping up to the point where i got so much work that I come in early, leave late and work through lunch... aint had a holiday (including Xmas) since October last year.

My boss wants me to train someone up. M & G Code programming for CNC turning, ACAD design, QA measurement on Talysurf etc etc.

My question is... would you lot do it for nothing? or am I just being selfish?

Cheers.

Iain.

Legally it is quite simply. The Intellectual Property is owned by the business. If you are self-employed the IP belongs to you. If you are employed the IP belongs to the boss. They created the environment making it possible to create the IP for.... them. I have had customers who wanted detailed drawings, source software etc. . There is no way they get it. A boss asks in principle for what is his. You should see their valuing of this situation by the end of the month on your bankaccount. The labour of training can be seen as a different type of employment, a trainer-trainee situation, which should put you in another scale. So story told, if you take the last choice as employee, they can call it obstruction.

Carel

Strange situation,

I to have ben there. Here is the thing to keep in mind is it took you years to get realy good at what you do and it will most likly take a long time for some one else to get as good as you are now this is a piont that need to be told to your boss. This is a two sided coin in the event he (your boss) is getting you some help (I.E. all work no play, will age you very quickly) AKA burnt out.

Seeing as you will have to teach and be responsible for what is learned I would think a raise in pay would be in order. Else the alternate is a new job or self imployment.
This is a strong possition to be in, handle it more commen sense and less emotion and it should work out great for all.

John

You may notice while you are training someone that your combined productivity rate goes in the toilet for a while, but that your wage continues to be paid. If you were the boss, this would mean that you would be working overtime to still complete the work until the new employee becomes productive enough to help attack the pile of work.

Believe it or not, work is not the be all and end all of your life. It is a diversion. YOU need to have a life, and take vacations, because at the end of the trail, work is a means to an end, not the end in itself. A new trainee can help you get your life back.

If you don't pass the skill along than no one would know anything the only thing that should die with age is a bad attitude

It depends on what you mean by "training him for free". If I were asked to come in on my own time and train him (after work... for free) then I would say "hell no". If it were part of work, and getting paid for it, then it is part of the job.

In some cases, machining simple parts is just a matter of throwing a substrate on the CNC and pushing go. In other cases, and I assume diamond machining is one of them, it's an art. No matter how good you are as a teacher, and no matter how good your student is, you may not be able to pass alone the "art" part of it. I know some people who are very good at doing, but suck at teaching. I also know some people who are very good at teaching, but I wouldn't let them near a machine if they were the last technician in the place.

In my case I make violins. I can take a piece of wood and flex it in my fingers or tap on it and listen to the tone and tell a lot from it. One skill I have been developing recently is the sound of the scraper or plane as it cuts through the wood changes as the wood becomes thinner and nearer to the perfect thickness. This is the art part of my work that really can't be taught, but must be experienced over many years. And either you feel it or you don't. I'm assuming that at least half of what you do is at the art level like that.

It sounds like what your talking about is putting together a whole cariculum (writing out a teaching plan, lecture notes, getting it approved by the boss for completeness, and then teaching it). May take several weeks of dedicated work. Can your boss really afford to not have you on the machine for that long?

And if there were another company in the area who could use your skills for a higher wage. And if you left without the time to train a replacement (two weeks would not be enough). Then you boss would be really screwed and your skills would be safe.

Steven

If the knowledge was gained 'on the clock' then you have no choice but to pass it on 'for free'. In this case, the company paid you to learn it therefore the knowledge is not your property.

Scott

The Knowledge maynot be yours but the skill is and when you go so will the skill

Believe it or not, work is not the be all and end all of your life. It is a diversion.

The VP of one of the companies I used to work for used to tell me family is first. Family is up here (yeah you can't see the hand gesture)

Work is second. It is down here.

But it is a long way between family and work. Family is always that much more important.

Many thanks for the replies... keep em comming.

I can clear up one point. My 20 years of optical knowledge was not gained at this job- I've only been here for 6 months. I gained it at various companies- Barr & Stroud, Atomic Weapons Research Est, British Aerospace and MBDA Missile System to name a few.

I can see both sides and am all mixed up... dunno what to do.

Iain

if you were hire to machine that your job not to train without compensation it your skill the want you to share if the want you to share knowledge give them a book

if you were hire to machine that your job not to train without compensation it your skill the want you to share if the want you to share knowledge give them a book

Better yet, if you have the time, write the book and charge them for it.

A lot of the stuff their asking for is basic though, the cad/cam stuff. For that you can just give them a book or tell then to send your student out for a course.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but what about info that you've accumulated outside of work. Ie, I've been researching and getting my head around CNC for the past 6-8 months. I've invested about 2-6 hr's each and every day and usually even more than that on weekends [ I know I don't have a life, so don't bother telling me :D] , now say my boss finds out what I'm doing in my garage and say's "great, now you can design/build me a plasma cutter for the shop" Can I say NO, not w/out paying me for the info I've got in my head.??

Curious...

Jerry

I was in the same position a few times. Mostly I just taught as opportunity presented and that was fine with everyone.

One instance though, I was working commission and told the owner that I'd train if they assigned the trainee to me as a helper and paid me commission on his completions to offset my lost time/income. Turned out the "boss" was just looking for freebies and got pretty upset that I wouldn't agree to be penalised for his benefit.

Case by case consideration, I suppose.


Tiger

I don't want to hijack the thread, but what about info that you've accumulated outside of work.... Can I say NO, not w/out paying me for the info I've got in my head.??

Curious...

Jerry

Of course you can say no and insist on a separate negotiation aside from your employment. The employer has no investment in your knowledge of cnc and no claim on it.

Might cost you the job, if the employer has the rather typical feudal attitude about employees (ie- serfs to be ordered about at whim), but your knowledge of cnc is the result of your own off the job time and effort and has nothing to do with the employer, hence is not the employers to lay claim to in any fashion. (imo, anyway)


Tiger

JerryFlyGuy: Skills you develop separately from your work at home (like inventing winecorkscrew #65892 as a bookkeeper) are your own Intellectual Property. If your boss wants to use incidentaly these skills, you make an agreement for the case and charge according to the agreement.

Carel

but your knowledge of cnc is the result of your own off the job time (imo, anyway)
Tiger
THAT THE QUESTION WHAT DID YOU REALY LEARN OFF THE JOB. MOST CNC PROGRAMER AND SET-UP PEOPLE LEARN ON THE JOB AND ON THE CLOCK. IF YOUR THE LEADMAN THEN IT'S YOUR JOB. DESIGN LIKE GERRY tHE FLY SAYS IS NOT CNC. BUT ENGEERING THAT SOMETHING YOUR BOSS HAS TO PAY FOR. WEATHER IT YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE. BUT WHEN IT ON PAPER THE MACHINIST MUST DO WHAT THE PRINT SAYS EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT WRONG!!

ive taught alot of people alot of things. it always has and always will make me happy.

beleive me. your 30 years of optical experience will not be stolen by some trainee. assuming half your skill is based on hands on experience, it would take decades for most people to catch up - add to that the craftyness of diamond\gem cutting and what you really have is probably a chance for a)an easier job(assuming you are on salary) b)the possibility of becomming the leader of a whole division of gem cutters.... c)the chance to learn something yourself throguh pupil\mentor interaction... d)the chance to really show your employeer how valuable you are when they see how long it takes another person to assume your responsibilities.

calling this 'free' is disingenuous and snotty. you didnt learn how to operate these extremely expensive machines and processes in your backyard - you learned it on other people machines. AND they paid you... they didnt even do it for free. they taught you for NEGATIVE $s.. suckers!

...beleive me. your 30 years of optical experience will not be stolen by some trainee. assuming half your skill is based on hands on experience, it would take decades for most people to catch up....

Excellent point and well put!

It sounds like this job is as much (or more) of an art than it is a process (the diamond machining part, not the CAD or software aspect). There is little a trainee can do other than attempt to gain your artistic insights. Perhaps the training you provide will shave a few years off the learning curve, but it still takes experience and that's not, as you know, exactly teachable.

Scott

it is kind of funny that we will help out each other on this site. But can't do it a work?

I know a fellow that trained a new worker to fix and adjust mail sorting machines. The company then let the guy go due to his 18 years of seniority and wage/benifit package compared to the new guy. All worked out for the better for my friend as he ended up in a less stressful and better paying job doing the same thing due to his experience and knowledge. The old company has been losing $$$ due to downtime caused by the new guys lack of experience so it is especially sweet justice for my friend.

On the other hand I came up through a shop and everyone with experience was expected to impart their ways of doing things. In a tool room that specialized in one off form/pierce dies, welding fixtures, and slitter/form roll machines, there was an eclectic variety of ways to get the job done. Machinist trainees and apprentices would get put with other machinists/ tool and die makers and as each imparted the way he went about squaring a block, roughing, finishing, or even attacking the entire job the newbee would be able to pick and choose the method that best worked with his own style of doing things.

The beauty of the shop was that very few machines had their own specific day in and day out operators. The broad depth of knowledge from planning the material draw and steps of operation for each job made a well rounded out tradesman. Now during it all, I went to tech college to get better at math on my own dime. Should I have begrudged the effort I spent advancing my knowledge? It added job security. It allowed me to do my job with less effort. I have to admit I didn't always see comensorate raises to my new knowledge which ultimately helped profits, but there is the sense of self satisfaction that is a worthy goal in and of itself.

I try to give as full depth of explaination/knowledge as the person is comfortable with. The thing is, I enjoy teaching others. If I die tomorrow, all of it is gone forever. If one person is aided or one bit of my knowledge lives on through the training of another, I become immortal in a sense. What I learned continues onward.

I say train the guy. Don't sweat production to the point of ulcers. You've got a few years until he is good. Who knows, the guy might be only good enough to hit the button and make chips. That is still no reason not to enjoy some comraderie. a coffee break, or just general shooting the ****.

Even though I ticked the yes box, I hadnt read your post first.
After reading the post I would say NO in your situation.
There are a few issues here.

Are you employed to drill or teach? If your answer is "do any thing the boss asks me to do", what would you say if he now told you your job has now changed, he now wants you to scrub toilet bowls all day? You are faced with a choice to comply or leave. You have the same choice here. You are employed because you have a rare skill. If he wants to change the terms of employment, then its up to you to test him out, and how much he values yours skills. What is stopping you from setting up your own bussiness and doing the same job, why should your boss profit from you if you can do it all for yourself anyway. Now he wants to have more do the same thing for him as well, and he doesnt want to pay for it. If your skill is so rare and so called for, Id drop the boss and go out for myself.

I bet if bussiness went bad and the boss had to lay you off, he wouldnt be posting in some forum asking if it was morally right to get rid of this guy.

Sorry I might sound rather anti boss here. But in my experience they are all similar, they will get whatever you give them, and if you put in over and above they will sap the benifits of that too, but when you are no use to them, they will ditch you like a used tissue.

Ynneb, some of what you say is true, however there are some other factors to take into concideration also. #1 has your[or his] employer treated you fairly in the past. #2 Are you terribly overloaded w/ work. #3 if you lose your job, do you have other networked solutions [ another job in the wings] #4 is it possible that your boss is actually trying to help you out and take some of the stress off [ more likely a long term thing] #5 Is business growing faster than you can keep up. #6 Does he have future plans that might include a larger contract and the need to have "two or more trained tech's " on paper to get the contract.

There's usually more than just what your getting. Now if they guy has a history of " My-way-itis " and you've never really been treated as a valued fella in the shop then you may have some grounds to stand for some fair treatment. If not then maybe its time for a change of venue.

I've also heard of the opposite thing happening to an employer. A schedule had been set that everyone had agreed to, this included Xmas holidays and who had to work over [ I think it was a fair percentage of the shop] , come Xmas eve, the whole shop [ personel] just walked out and said see ya after new years. Whats an employer to do at that point?? So fair treatment can be a two way street.

My 2 cents.. and outside perspective..

Jerry

Benny; Your major paragraph brought up some good points but the tone on which you finished your post is offensive and distasteful. From my own experience of spending several thousand dollars sending an employee to technical school and then coaching them for almost two years in programming and setup only to have them abandon their job a few months later I could generalize and say all employees will just take you for a ride and are not worth doing anything for. But I don't because I have some employees who have stayed with me for ten and fifteen years or more. Perhaps you should take an inward look; many times the treatment or attitude you receive in any situation is merely a reflection of the treatment or attitude you hand out.

Jerry; you are more long winded but I guess I type slower. :)

Jerry; you are more long winded but I guess I type slower. :)


So is that a good thing? :D there's lots more I could say on the subject.. but I won't want to get tooo windy... Sask is windy enough.. :)

Jerry

Its your choice if you want to take offence, I did say "from MY experience"

In two jobs now I have suggested two big ideas to my bosses, and they got me to set it up for them, they made huge profits from the whole excersize "HUGE PROFITS" When I asked for a small pay rise they got rid of me. I take offence to that. I do look inwards more often than I should at times, I have constantly given people the benifit of the doubt, only to be exploited many times. Those bosses also took offence when I was bold enough to ask for a small reward for my idea and contribution. Thay ALSO said to me that I needed to take a look at myself. I dont need to say any more.

I'm so glad he started this thread. I'm looking to hire in the near future and the shear terror of spending much of my time training someone who could leave at a moments notice is driving me insane.

I'm the only person who clicked the, 'only if I teach it wrong,' box and I was only joking well, half joking at least!! I live in a VERY densely populated (machine shops that is,) area and would like to know being on the other side of this problem, "Can I draw up a legally binding document, so as anything my newbie learns as far as special fixturing and machining strategy cannot be passed on to future employers?"

If the answer is yes, I would do that in a heartbeat... If the answer is no, I'm looking at total automation, (more profits for me and cheap / unskilled labor loading parts...)

The downside as I see it being this... I feel morally obligated to build a business that pays employees VERY well, so they can enjoy a standard of living I would like if I were them... I don't fully subscribe to the 'I built the company, I deserve all the profits,' mentality...

I've spent twelve years learning my trade, 2 years on my own perfecting it and now am starting to gain nationwide publicity in a very big hurry... I personally have no choice but to expand shortly but the direction I go is largely dependent on how much trust I have for people outside my immediate family... In my case, it's not that the product is altogether new but the process to get my cost down is~

Like my quote says, "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese." How do I keep from being the first mouse?!

i dunno. if scientists devloping crazy things routinely give all the rights to their inventions to whatever entity funded the work, i think people who run big expensive equipment, or make their living off the corporate infrastructure provided by someone else, you have some obligations when its work hours. i do solidworks modeling for work. i have taught many tricks to co-workers, and they have helped me out as well. not quite the same, considering there are 20 engineers designing in solidworks in the r&d lab, but at some companies, knowing solidworks would be all they need 1 person for... that person could be replaced if magically someone else(like, eeek, the bosses kid) learns the skill..if this is your case, i suppose that is a reason to be concerned..

g'luck. im done thinking about this! it is interesting to see different view points. its like scrupples for the specially skilled..

My day job is as the head Oracle DBA programmer in a busy hospital and we have a high turnover of staff, they come, get experiance and knowledge ( from me ) and leave usually after 2 years for better money. I guess I stay because I get enough money to be comfy and I enjoy the work, but teaching someone else really makes you learn and understand what you think you know. I personally have no regrets from passing on information and knowledge over the past 20 years and I have some very good friends for it.

I don't know what the engineering job market is like but I guess human nature never changes.

Some people will not be interested ( just a job ) they will learn just enough to do the job and work just to the hours, often clock watching.

Some want to learn because they can get more money, or your job, if they don't get more money they leave as soon as they have the knowledge. They often don't have the experiance but a lot of course certificates and nearly as many jobs on their cv's.

Very occasionally you get someone who is really interested and wants to learn for themselves. You get just as much out of this person as you put in, often more. They tend to question a lot and come up with their own ideas, look after these people.

In the U.S. companies have beat up the worker so bad in the last 20 year. That peoples no long care about helping on the job. We know that once someone else has the same skill level of the senior machinist and get half the pay and vacation time. Guess who going out the door. I only show young machinist the right way and never show the fast way

What ever happened to LOYALTY between employer and emploee? Seems both sides are just as suspicious of the other these days.....

I was an apprentice, know I have a license and many years experience.I got this through work,experimenting on their equipment, breaking things at their expense.
Now, I can say I am efficient at what I do, and as such,I pass my knowledge on to new apprentices, just as I was once taught. Seems only natural to me.

Proffesional trades people will always show and teach the younger and new...that is life. One day when you are retired you can look back and be proud to have passed the torch so to speak.
The only time I would say "no" is if the trainee was truely not interested,reckless, or disrespectful to you as a trades person, that would be a waste of everyone's time.

Besides, sometimes it's nice to watch from the sidelines with clean hands as your apprentice grinds away at a problem getting all dirty and frusterated. :D

Always reminds me of Luke Skywalker and Yoda......"Do, or Do not, There is no "Try"

perhaps you can spin this into your advantage by asking for "supervisor" trainning....?Could open a door for that way?

Just my 2cents

What ever happened to LOYALTY between employer and emploee?

This question can be answer best by Auto Works, Enron Works, Coal Miners just to name a few of the.................... Tens of Thousands of Workers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One day when you are retired you can look back

....And say how could they screw me out of my pension and retirement benefits those FUC..............SShOLES!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

What the heck, I'm retired and if it helps someone do their thing easier, I'm all for sharing! One thing for sure, I can't bring it with me, anymore than I can bring all my tools!

Eric

helping here in the zone is not like training your replacement at work and lets face the fact it happen every day now a days and it will be a long time before people care about companies the way they once did and it to bad because everyone losses

New rules, gentlemen:

Management doesn't want/expect you to stay in your job for life anymore. They expect you to "move one".

They don't want the burden of your benefits, healthcare, etc.

Some will use and exploit you, especially in the auto industry where jobs are getting scarce and there is a clear pattern of "use them up, spit them out" developing.

I was taught to get job and gain "security". That didn't happen due to my independant nature and outspokeness. They say the cynicism is an impolite way of telling the truth. It may be but when you step on some peoples toes, they have funny ways of saying ouch.

THis much I learned so far. Learn what you can as they can take away your job but they can't take away your education. When you do have the ability to solve problems, you can get a job nealy anyplace - sometimes, you have to provide for yourself and your future.

Few folks have the ambition to create their own business but it can be rewarding - albeit emotionally, but not always financially.

I guess I've come to the realization that I'll never get wealthy working for anybody else. They'll always have their rules which satisfy THEIR objectives. The question is, what about mine???

I did all kinds of neat things for previous employers. In one case, products I designed in the 70's and 80's are STILL being sold and making a profit 20 plus years later. When I checked into a hospital recently, all they wanted were the insurance papers - they could care less what my accomplishments are/were. It's simply business.....

When you have a skill, you have to be prepared to walk. In this case, I'd try to find out WHY does the boss want me to train someone.

Is it because I"m backlogged???
Could I be the bottleneck in growth???
Has the company become TOO dependant on me???
Is he planning to expand???
What are his plans for/with me??? Only the boss knows....

There is a difference between taking advantage of a persons skill as opposed to taking advantage of the person. You'll NEVER get paid what you're truly worth but you'll get a fair wage - buy cheap sell dear is what the employer tries to do...

Don't let yourself be taken advantage. Do protect your interests. Do remain flexible. Figure out what's going on. Talk with your wife. She'll know more than you'll give her credit for.

Talk to friends who are in business for themselves. They'll give you "business insight". I did and its helped me immensely with my self employment. Good luck. The answer is probably staring you in the face....

sometimes teaching becomes a learning expierience in itself

New rules, gentlemen:

Well said.

I have come to the same realization over the past few years. I wish I had come to it earlier.

I once worked for a small company and in the QC lab there was this absolutely gorgeous young blond straight out of college. She systematically when through every training course she could, both inhouse and outside. 6 months after she had started she left for a fortune 500 company and a much larger salary. She knew enough to take her education and whatever she could learn and run with it much earlier than a lot of people.

She was greatly missed (until she was replaced by the next hot blond a few weeks later).

steven

sometimes teaching becomes a learning expierience in itself

Very true also. I have learned more physics and math by teaching it than I feel I ever learned as a student.

Becuase its something super specialized, I'd say do it for a bonus or something, or get a raise out of it. Although for the most part, I'd do it to pass my knowlege on and do it willingly unless this guy is a complete moron;)


Jon

Memo to JFettig;

At your age, you have a life to look forward to living and can afford to be benevolent.

At 2.75 times your age and NOT at an age where people are standing in line to hire me, the picture is VERY different.

From my perspective, you are either inordinately naive or very, very inexperienced in the realities of business... Things might be that way in school but the situation changes DRASTICALLY in the real world. Ask for a raise and in some industries, you might as well tender a letter of resignation. "you want a WHAT????".

I know of many people, including customers who'd love for me to tell them how to do this, that or the other thing for free - things i spent a small fortune to learn and a life time to perfect an understanding of. I don't think so.....

Yet not a SINGLE solitary one of them, including a former employer manager. gave a hoot when I was hospitalized several years ago. Some didn't even get a card. After it was over and was back on my feet, one even had the nerve to say that "You need to understand, we're friends but this is business... we didn't know if we could "depend" on you....." Real eye opening experience....

Maybe you've been treated nicer than I in an industry that is not as cut throat. But, the auto industry and especially the racing industry, are NOT industries where people give stuff away. Those who do are eaten up/spit out like used tires.

Keep another thing in mind: Management does NOT take kindly to ultimatums and managment can NEVER give in to one - even if they are wrong and in dire need. Management, no matter what you think and are told, is a case of power and control.

Some folks call it life - I call it "Reality 101" and the moron the boss wants me to "teach" can go to the same university I did. He (the untrainee) can get off his/her a$$ and learn he skills like I did and it WASN'T spoon fed to me by a well intended guy who got the shaft after he trained his replacement. Besides, some skills aren't taught - they're learned.

As I struggle to make ends meet daily, I don't have time to nurture someone who probably doesn't have the fundamental knowledge to even begin to learn some of the skills associated with a special skilled trade such as (enter an appropriate one of your choice HERE).

Dunno about you guys but that answered all of my questions (chair)

I understand what you mean, I am a youngin. I supose more of what I meant was 'try' to get that, but if all else fails, dont refuse to do it or anything.


I always look at what I am doing and I just gotta slow down and live life while Im still young.

Jon

If I was reading some of these posts from Jon's perspective I might come to the conclusion that there were a bunch of bitter old men posting. From my perspective I only need to substitute the word young. All I can say is Jon you are definitely younger than most of the posters, you are probably a lot less experienced and more naive and idealistic. You cannot do much about getting older (well you can but that is rather terminal) but you can do lots about gaining experience. When life kicks you in the teeth a few times, which it probably will, then you have a choice; you can lower yourself to the level of the kicker and kick somebody else in a position of less power than yourself and develop into another bitter old man, or you can rise above that type of response.

I couldn't have said it better Geof..

Jerry

Joh you could be realistic and see that no company is ever going to care about you. That a fact you are a # and it not what you did for the company it what have you done today for the company and how much did it cost

I agree with Geoff, well put! There is something to be said about the ole' 'I'd rather be safe than sorry' line though. One of my favorite expressions is, "there's a ditch on both sides of a road." My take on life is typically, when you have two very different view points, 9 times out of ten the best option is somewhere in the middle. I think the young guys can learn more from the old guys than vice versa but hopefully the old guys can realize that being set in your ways doesn't neccessarily make that way the right one~

:cheers: Here's to "Bitter old men" and the young inheriting the earth....:D
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Bitter??? Yes, most assuredly. Have good reasons and excuses to be.

Have been asked to train younger engineers - and was replaced by the trainee after a summary dismissal - called a RIF (reduction in force). He didn't create anywhere near the amount of parts I did but he's long gone and my parts are still being sold - 20+ years later. Nice to know the company has made millions off the parts and I got 9 weeks severance.....

Saw "kids" given excuses time after time at another job yet I was called in to fix the mess and make it work. The thanks I got was reassigned to another FUBAR'd mess instead of the glamor job I turned the former FUBAR one into. THey tried to lay the "you should be honored" crap on me when the "kid" got the cream and I got someone else's folly to fix. NO money, no position, just more exploitation. Oh, BTW, the "kids" who I replaced got promotions into managment.

There's any number more but you get the picture.

I always wondered why my dad (a creative hard working construction worker) was so bitter about his job and his situations (overheard while "guy talk" took place at family doings). At this time, I fully understand why - and know how to overcome/deal with them.

Solution: prepare yourself to WALK, no RUN to the next opportunity.

There is a difference between wisdom and knowlege. Schools provide knowledge, the aging process provides wisdom.

It is not that often that one is fortunate enough to be take advantage of the one that is offered and the good sense to recognize when the other is there for the grabs.

Yes, people get bitter. But even a dog quits coming when you call it and beat it when it arrives. In my case, I turned it (the bitterness and disillusionment and KNOWLEDGE) into a business opportunity as well as a chance to offer something special/different in a rather mature and set in its ways industry.

Now I just have to deal with the people who begrude the fact that my job is "so easy". It should be, I spent half a lifetime setting myself up to take advantage of it and the other half learning as many tricks as I could so as to make it that way when/if it happened.

Luck is when opportunity and preparation meet...... I don't make a lot now but a lot of the kids I do work for at the OEM's have clear envy in their eyes when they come to the shop in mid afternoon and we're playing fetch with "shop dog".

Does as good a job as antidepressants and much less problems with the mind numbing side effects. Got to go - the dog wants/has to go out..

[QUOTE=NC Cams]Bitter??? Yes, most assuredly. Have good reasons and excuses to be.

Okay, just stop dumping on people who have a different philosophy of life to you.

Geof: with all due respect, please reread post #1 on this thread.

It might be percieved as "dumping" but the intent was to provide the perspective of a person who's gone thru the same thing more than once. IE: learn from my mistakes and/or my example.

Fortunately, I've gotten past (doesn't seem like it though) the worst of the "feelings" but they still surface when properly stimulated. The nice part is that a number of former colleagues now ask me for advice as they too have started to see the exploitation that takes place in the type of industry I was in.

When you learn that you're best friend got escourted out of the building (while I was on trip, by intent) and lose your mgr in a plane crash only to have mgt have YOU pack up his 30 year career into 3 boxes and dump it, you SEE what managments do and what they think of people.

The thing that young folks lack is perspective. They're young, enthusiastic, intelligent, "sponges" just looking to absorb as much of life's knowledge and skills that they can. To that end, colleges DON"T teach the politics of business - only life can. Some of us had harder classes than others.

I've explained any number of times to professionals in HR depts that I've met outside of professional environment some of the things that I've gone thru. Can't tall you how many, "Don't know how you could handle that's...." I got.

Sorry for apparently dumping. However, there is a clear lacking of documentation in business relations courses on how to deal with a manager who is bound and determined to have you dismissed and/or who wants to exploit you for HIS career advancement goals.

My advice/ramblings/whatever are offered for their worth and can be followed or ignored as the reader sees fit. However it did happen and surely will happen again. If you're lucky/prepared, it won't happen to you....

Interesting enough. I saw an interview of a young woman author who had just graduated college this year. Her first book cronicles what she calls the "me generation", making the case that her generation, the group just graduating, now is the most self centered and self serving group in the history of the country (America). I can tell you, being a part time college professor and having to dumb down the curriculum so that they could pass, they ain't the brightest generation either.

And yet they call us bitter old men...

I wonder how bitter they will end up, once reality sets in, starting off with an already bad attitude.

I see some companies in my field advertizing themselves as having a young and vibrant management team. I usually interpret that as actually saying ...we have a management team who haven't made the mistakes and gained the life experiences to actually know what their doing. No wonder 9 out of 10 startups in this country fail in the first 5 years.

I was once interviewed by a young lady chemist who must have been about the same age as my stepdaughter. I would ask her a few simple questions about what her lab was doing and almost every single answer was wrong (I had been running the same type of lab doing the same thing for another, much smaller company, for about 5 years at that time). Thankfully, when I went up the food chain and interviewed with her boss, the dept manager, he actually knew what he was doing (but then he was my age).

When I was young I was very interested in comparitive religion. One distinction all the ancient mysitcal texts make is the difference between knowlege and wisdom. Knowlege you can get from reading a few books. Wisdom you gain from actually running the machine and screwing up a few parts before you actually have a feel for what's going on and learn the tricks necessary to make the part correctly.

Now, after 30 years of often having to fix my own lab equipment (sometimes stripping things down to the board level and looking at test points), I am looking to go into field service. Thank god there is an abundance of young kids with bad attitudes in the workplace ready and willing to f**k up their machines so I have a plentifull supply of work for the future :)

I have to say that it really doesn't seem to me to be generational.

In the two decades I was operating my business I had at least a couple dozen people who wanted me to apprentice them, some of them as much as 20 years older than myself. Out of all that number, not a single one was willing to do the work to prepare for training. It got to the point that I kept a book list made up to hand out... never did have anyone come back and want to discuss any of the materials from any of the books.

Young, old, in the middle, made not a lick of diff. What all seemed to want was to be indoctrinated with a list of point and click answers to all possible questions/problems. The very idea of having to learn how to solve problems for themselves seemed to terrify all comers.

The biggest reason I started posting here and annoying you people was that there is a high percentage of people here who *do* want to know, learn and apply. Very refreshing change of pace from the "gimme the answer" crowd :)


Tiger

I think that even though you groan about teaching you still hold hope for us greenhorns because you are a member of this forum, I know I have gained alot of knowledge from most of you guys and am very greatful for it and I hope to pick your brains for alot more. I would love to apprentice with a machine shop but its a who you know type of thing around here and I really don't know anybody.

The biggest reason I started posting here and annoying you people was that there is a high percentage of people here who *do* want to know, learn and apply. Very refreshing change of pace from the "gimme the answer" crowd

Well said. I have found the same thing here, but this forum seems to be the exception rather than the rule in the world at large.

Would you post your list of reading materials please? Can't say I'll read them all. Only the ones that apply to my limited applications. But as mike will tell you I am noted out here for asking plenty of dumb questions.

[QUOTE=sdantonio]......And yet they call us bitter old men...

Actually they, if by "they" you mean the younger people posting, didn't; I did and I certainly don't qualify as a younger people. I also don't see younger posters demonstrating a particularly bad attitude so I think you are getting yourself twisted around. In addition blaming the products of an inadequate education system for the need to " dumb down the curriculum so that they could pass" is not fair. They did not set the standards they were expected to meet throughout their education; your generation did. To quote from another post; "The thing that young folks lack is perspective. They're young, enthusiastic, intelligent, "sponges" just looking to absorb as much of life's knowledge and skills that they can." This is correct and if all the sponge absorbs is bitterness interspersed with ridicule of this type; "you are either inordinately naive or very, very inexperienced in the realities of business" you should not be surprised if they turn into the "me generation".

OK... who here can program, set up, run, and repair a 15-axis swiss machine?

I can, but my GOD I am tired of being the only one in my shop who can, and does, for 12-14 hours a day!

I will gladly train someone to do the things I can do, providing that it results in: A) a benefit for the company, and B) a more 'normal' work week for me!

On the other side of the coin...
I am a software programmer in my 'spare' time. I spent most of a year coding a CNC program editor/plotter/DNC package. It involved my having to jump through some hoops to figure out the best way to do something (optimize the path that connects 200+ holes, for example). Now-- I don't mind sharing some programming tips and tricks, but I'm not about to turn over entire sections of code (RS-232 port analyzer, for example) to someone who wants to learn to program.

Just my two cents.

I’m 46 years old, been machining for 25 years was trained by the old school. I live 20 miles south of Boston. Have seen the fore river shipyard close and was part of a group that received Federal job training in the hopes of reopening it. No luck. I have seen company after company close shop and move out of Massachusetts Bitter at my age, you bet I am

Geof: A sponge will only absorb what it is imersed in. If you ONLY imerse it in water, that's all it will pick up. I you imerse it in water and detergent, it will clean and sanitize things. THus, you have to imerse it in MANY liquids (situations) to determine its optimum useage potential.

I was the "first class" graduate of the tech program that was offered at the college in my home town. Nearly 15 years after graduation, I got a call from a former professor who was now Dean of the school. He asked me the usual questions (job, job history, etc) and then the interesting question: "What didn't we teach in school that we should be teaching???"

Several simple replies:

Common sense

Industrial problem identificaiton/solving

and, most of all

OFFICE POLITICS 101.

After explaining some of the "episodes" that I went thru, he admitted that the OP101 course would probably be a great course to teach but he didn't have a clue how to create a ciriculum nor could he imaging where he could go to locate one.

So much for academia.... Some things can't be taught but have to be learned which is why some of us got dumped on so much/so badly over the years. It doesn't pay to be TOO creative, TOO outspoken and TOO independant.... But it doesn't hurt to keep your eyes open for free advice.

How many of the people in this forum would have thought that companies like Bridgeport, U.S. Repeating Arm, Morse Cutting Tool would ever close?

I think that even though you groan about teaching you still hold hope for us greenhorns

If that was addressed to me, teaching was one of the most enjoyable and rewarding things I even did (8 years college, 2 years high school). It's not so much hope for the future, I gave up on that :). It's those brief moments when you get to the end of a sentence and pause and you see that one person in the class who actually has this twinkle of understanding in his/her eyes.

I remember one of the proudest moments in my life. A few years back (my last year teaching I had gotten out of teaching night school in college and was trying highschool full time) I was allowed to give out some special awards to the most promising math and science students (it was a little catholic school). I had one girl who maintained a 96 average in my class (D student in all her other classes). Notes going home from all her other teachers saying she was a problem student. I sent a note home telling her mother that the only time I had to talk to her was when she was turning around to explane to her little buddies how to do the problems. Without her, many of her friends wouldn't have passed that year. And that I saw her do problems in her head that some of those around her couldn't do on a calculator. And that I have had long talks with her, mostly in detention, about trying to get her passionately interested in something. Anything would do, because if I could do that in any subject, then the rest would follow.

She got the award in math. Showed up and took my final (and did well) then got expelled the next day for general behavior.

A few days later when I was turning in my grades there was a note for me from her. Thanking me for being the first person to believe in her. I still have that note on my wall at home (in pink pen with the miss-spellings).

Or there was the time when one of the students, without thinking, blurted out in the middle of class, "damn it Mr. D, I gave up drugs for you because I realized I couldn't party and pass your class at the same time..."

I had the reputation for being brutal, but I also had the highest pass/fail ratio in the school. And I had people come to me and point to the course catalog and say "... is this your section... your the physicist, right...the section you teach is the one I want to be in next year..."

So, yeah. I still hold hope. But I'll also reserve the right to say "show me" too.

BTW, if you weren't addressing me then ignore this post :)

Wow, have we strayed off course from Ian's original post.

Actually I was speaking in general but the story was inspiring I hope others take it to heart, I don't think some of the people in here realize the impact they can have on peoples lives. I feel like I have been in college since I found this sit for me purchasing the reading material is hard due to finances but like a sponge I suck up everything I read in here.

Probably none, Lakeside, had the question been answered years ago BEFORE bad business decisions/planning choices were made which sealed their fates.

In BPT's case, there were people there who KNEW machine tools and/or how to make/design state of the art NEW equipment needed for the NEW manufacturing technologies that were emerging.

Sadly, I know first hand where MANAGEMENT made short sighted decisions which cured symptoms as opposed to the root cause of their problems.

Example: put LABOR into assembly as opposed to buying better quality parts. When it takes 8-12 hours to set up a machine, hunt and peck with selective fits as opposed to making 1 good part and assembling it with 1 (not a matrix of 12 selective fit bearings), you've DESTROYED any resemblance you may have had with respect to mass producing something. Yes, they saved money with the bearings and pi$$ed it and more away trying to make it work. Put good ball screw bearings into mine and the machine was running RIGHT in less than an hour, first shot. The OEM's never could/did repeat and they were like new....

BPT stayed tried and tru with thier classic vertical mill. HOwever, the imported stuff eventually caught and matched and in some cases surpassed the quality if it. For what you used to pay for a BPT mill, you can now buy a HAAS tool room CNC mill for. You can only milk so much out of a product. Sad case of management NOT keeping up with the progress of their competition and needs of their customers.

Companies that stay in business and prosper provide the product and services that their customers want. Sadly, however, management's quest for lower cost suppliers has resulted in jobs and businesses being stripped of value and/or viability via their exploitation of cheap foreign labor markets. You can only ship dollars off shore so long before you run out of $$$'s. I dunno when business and politicians are going to realize that....

Want to stop illegal immigration??? Put up a plant south of the border and pay domestic labor rates.

Once you set up and stimulate a viable economy THERE, there will no longer be a need for $5/day laborer south of the border to want to come to USA illegally to make $5/hour. Simple economics which politicians can't understand and some businessmen WILL always try to exploit...

FInally, the people who used to run the companies listed in post 61 in their heydays, were in business to provide a good and/or service. At their swan song, I'd bet management was there purely to make money... big difference and a critical one to their success...

Note to Mr. D form antonio:

20-30 years from now, some of those same kids will still be inspired by you. My (probably long departed by now) algebra teacher in high school had that effect on me. To this day, some of Mr. Pickens gems of wisdom still affect my thought processes with regard to problem solving.

You've had a rare opprotunity that few of us have shared. My moment like that came when we had a training session for the parts company I worked for so many years ago. I taught a course on camshafts at the time. It was rough and EVERYBODY knew I wasn't messing around.

One of my most proud moments was in learning that NOBODY got any of the test questions wrong regarding camshafts. And it was multiple guess and every wrong answer was there too. That episode still makes me feel pretty good....

Another was a year after another trainins session at a bearing company. Why a year??? At a sales meeting a sales guy came up and thanked me for being such an SOB in demanding perfection in my class. I asked why?? The reply, "It turned out that making you happy with an answer/results was comparatively easy - the customers are MUCH worse!!!"

If you prepare for the worst, life is always better than you hope/plan for....

I feel like I have been in college since I found this sit

I know exactly what you mean. And it's those embarasing moments here that you learn the most from. This will show you that, even with all the college education, I'm still far from being a machinist (or engineer).

I needed a collet adapter to allow me to use 3/8 shank end mills in my router (equipped with a 1/2in collet). Simple enough, I have a similar split collet adapter to go from 1/8 shank to 1/4 shank. I sat up for half an hour with Rhino designing what I need and making a nice 3D rendering and sent it out to a machinist friend of mine for his final approval and suggestions for metals to make it from.

The email I got back was: You don't need to build it. They call them flanged bushings. Just buy it for $4 then come in and we'll cut it here.

for me purchasing the reading material is hard due to finances

Thank god the companies I work for all seem to leave me alone when they see me at the photocopier. I was thanked and told one year that I had single handedly justified the interlibrary loan buget and that because of me they will have even more money to work with next year.

The email I got back was: You don't need to build it. They call them flanged bushings. Just buy it for $4 then come in and we'll cut it here.

that one thing about being a machinist you are often ask to make thing that can be bought for a few dollars but no one seems to be able to find them

memo to SDANTONIO:

Consider yourself fortunate. My use of the copy machine and company network printer on weekends, on my own time, was one of the "reasons" my boss put me on probation and then used as justificaion for dismissal from my last (perhaps literally) job - and I was even using MY REAMS OF PAPER.

Yet he did his term paper over and over, printed his kids sports stuff and even resume on same "resources". Shows to go you that some people will do ANYTHING to eliminate some people and/or to cover their tracks.

He might be rid of me but he won't ever get over/change the fact that he's a semi-bald, coke bottle glassed, book learned, bigoted, pencil pouch, scrawny framed, geekoid engineer who didn't have the sense and/or balls to improvise when times called for it. Sure was good a politics though. Must of learned it from the place he got let go from previously...That has to tell you something....

Some things even education can't change.

A lot of these owners are living in their own kingdom. At a certain moment they find paying their employees a nuisance, because they should be pleased to serve their king. Every now and then I have to do business with family owned business, like brothers, fathers and the wives doing the bookkeeping. They have a kingdom. So, I forewarn them: "I pledged myself to avoid doing business with family businesses, so would you please behave yourselves with regard to paying terms etc.". We have a laugh then, but you still have to warn them every now and then. They stand hand in hand with their back to the world, ignoring it. They don't know the law, or ignore it and I pity their personnel, because they are commodities.

Carel

Here is another point I haven’t seen mentioned.

Rare skills that are almost Art-like in quality that are in demand often suffer from automation. Because the talent is so hard to find/train (or in this case, no one wants to share) they figure a way to automate or just plain eliminate the job.

And don't make the mistake of saying "there is no way of doing that for my job". That’s why they call all the old-timers that make everything seam like magic "dinosaurs".

I have had employee’s take all the training and get better/higher paying jobs elsewhere. More power to them, at the time I couldn’t pay them what they could be worth.

Because of my ego I will share all of my knowledge when training, because I personally think I am near the top, when it comes to skills and learning ability. :D

So, Bring in on, beef! ;)

You want beef, you'll get beef. I have discussions every now and then with selfcalled toolmakers, diemakers etc. They all are bragging about the difficulty of their jobs and how they have to find solutions for this and that huge one-off problem. Then I see that are talking about tolerances that are 1/10th of what I normally work with. I see also the tunnelvision and a lacking off the overview. Normally all these huge problems, which offcourse are solved in an heroic, unique way, are triggered by lack off design and planning. This method is offcourse very good for the inflating off the ego's of the persons involved, but it doesn't help time and cost control. If you want replacable parts, repairable machines you don't want Art and Heroism, you want cool calculations.

Carel

Normally all these huge problems, which offcourse are solved in an heroic, unique way, are triggered by lack off design and planning

Reminded me of one of my pet peeves: "ergonomics". Every time I see the word it automatically translates as "pat me on the back for finally doing my design job correctly" ;)

A big part of the problem (imo) is that far too many of those making design and production decisions know only the current state of the art and have no education in or understanding of the background frmework that cutting edge rests on.

I'll never forget one aerospace engineer customer of mine whining about having to wait weeks for a piece of equipment to accurately square a big fixture. He had a cow when I happened to mention the 3 disc method of referencing a large square... degrees out the yang and he had never heard of it.


Tiger

You lost me Carel... I have a good friend from the Netherlands but once in awhile I get confused talking to her... What do you do?? What kind of tolerances do you hold?? (Before you post, what's that in inches, lol) I'm just curious is all, I like knowing a little history about the posters, so I can understand where they're coming from...

Let's all be real here, it is easier to hold a tolerance of +-.00005 on a lapping machine than it is to hold +-.050 on a jig saw... Without giving us your application, tolerances mean nothing, the same ego inflating bit could (respectfully) be said about you because the only reason to mention it in your post was to show you're better than them and their accomplishment was very menial...

Another example would be, they're holding tolerance x.xxx in a six inch deep pocket in a mill, well that is a hundred times harder than holding the x.xxxx tolerance on a surface grinder... Broad generalizations only make a person sound intelligent to the uneducated or the unexperienced as a rule... (I think once you provide examples, it will clear this up.)

It may be that we are comparing apples to oranges in the tolerance department but griping about it in the EXACT same manner they do, ego inflating useless heroism!! (To use some of your words.) Again, I very respectfully believe that when you explain your background better it will bring a lot of clarity to your viewpoint but I do have problems with broad generalizations... (BUT ONLY because I'm in a family business with toolmakers, lol!!) :rolleyes:

I can understand where you are coming from to a degree but many times building molds, it has NOTHING to do with poor planning as you just mentioned as much as it has to do with a repair, engineering change, tool broke or the code was bad, heat treat warped it an unforeseen direction, bad part design from the engineer or just a simple: "It didn't do what I thought it should."

Mistakes are unavoidable, both human and mechanical and I don't enjoy being around perfect people where nothing goes wrong... I do however enjoy being around problem solvers when it does hit the fan though... BTW, I'm interested in what you were saying but I think I missed part of what you meant...

Also, I was a little confused about the family businesses... You do or don't like working with them?? I think you were being sarcastic but I was a little confused...

I'm not attacking your post, just asking if you could clarify a few things...

One time I worked at a factory on a frame outsourced by ESTEC(tuesday = spaceday).This frame had to rotate 180 deg. I was halfway and saw it was'nt going to work the way they planned it. I called my boss, he did not see it, he called his boss, he did not see it. I told them I was right and please call the engineer. He came and saw the thing for real the first time and saw it would'nt work. He did new drawings, I did the restore and that's it. It's called responsibility and cooperation.

Carel

This frame had to rotate 180 deg. I was halfway and saw it was'nt going to work the way they planned it. I called my boss, he did not see it, he called his boss, he did not see it. I told them I was right and please call the engineer. He came and saw the thing for real the first time and saw it would'nt work. He did new drawings, I did the restore and that's it.


Carel,

I wonder if your self described 'toolmaker' buddies ever run into the same situation? In other words, they had to fix a problem that was not a direct result of them doing or planning something wrong, they just have to resolve the issue...

ROFLMAO, did you not just gripe about them bragging about something "heroic" they did, yet two posts later, I read the word "I" five times including, "I told them I was right"?? (and now the whole world I might add!! :rolleyes: ) I find this amusing myself... I heard once, "People like yourself, get on your nerves the quickest." :boxing: Might want to think that over bro~

AMCjeepCJ: You misread the I am better than you attitude. I make parts according to the ISO system, which justs means that it is a rule for everyone. If my part is not according to this, it's scrap, period. I will not go bragging how many problems I had making it and that they have to take it the way it is. Scrap=Scrap. If you are bragging how many shortcuts you took, how you cheated, how much your product resembles the product and if they tweak it here and there for a few hours it will certainly work, the product is just not good enough. That's all, that's what I call ironically Engineering Heroism.

For family business: I don't like to cooperate with them. Example: You agree with them: in 6 month's we will be at that point and in the meantime they do a 180. They will present your product as theirs, and you have to solve the problems caused by that attitude. You need tape recorders, lawyers, just to stay alive. If you do research, they are suddenly screaming at you, while you're explaining the steps necessary for the product, that was the worst. They will slap the brother on his shoulder for your design, the start of denial of design. It does'nt mean they are all like that, I just see the average.

About the things I do: you don't want to get bored.

Carel

Okie dokie, fair enough... :) Still kind of curious about the specifics in comparing your tolerances... I'm interested the applications you were referring to... To be fair, were / are you a toolmaker?? There are times when the print calls for a .005" radius in a corner and you HAVE to fake it in on the electrodes by hand or else not make any money on that job... To back up your stance though, you're absolutely right about the rampant ego's in the shops or anywhere for that matter...

BTW, I read many of your other posts and honestly I really like you, you're a straight shooter, opinionated, (good thing,) and definitely honest...

I'm assuming in your posts however, you mean 'small' family owned shops, correct?? I don't know of one single mold / machine shop in my county that's not 'family' owned and we're in the heart of the auto industry... The places we do work for like summit polymers are the people we hate, net 30 my ass, try 120-360+ and that's AFTER 40 phone calls and faxes... I still however think it's difficult to make broad generalizations!!

Here is a goofy example: I love motocross and I routinely see in the paper, "CR 250, blah blah blah, NEVER RACED." People assume this means it's better than one that was... When we raced the oil in the clutch is changed every 2-4 moto's, we let it idle until it's up to temp, everything is constantly lubed, cleaned, the engine is constantly rebuilt, etc. Compare that to our play bikes, shoot, we routinely sink em' in the swamp, wind em' up without proper warming, (cold seize anyone?!) and just beat the piss out of them including ghost riding jumps, etc. My point being this: I'd rather have a legitimate ametuer racer sell me a bike than someone who might not know the first thing about jetting, lubing, general maintenance, (you name it)...

Now lets tie this to your broad generalizations (BG)... The BG about bikes is, not raced = better bike... Not always true... The BG about family owned companies is (read your posts)... Not always true... I don't like making sweeping statements about anything because it slants our views on anyone associated with that group even if it's innocently done...

Case in point, Christians, Muslims, Hindu's, etc... Blacks, whites, Oriental, Arab, etc... Yeah that's taking it to extremes BUT anytime you have a mindset of grouping people, you need to really check how far you take it because I've NEVER yet seen it work...

I'll shuttup now...

PS
To get back to the topic, my thoughts at this point are 'yes' I would pass on CERTAIN knowledge for free IF I respected and trusted that person...

About the things I do: you don't want to get bored.

Carel


LOL, we're machinists dude, bore away!!

WOW! I hope I didn't start this!

where did all of this come from?

Just let it go guys! Have a beer call it a day! :D

Have a beer call it a day! :D
NOW WERE TALKING WHAT KIND ?

uh oh, another brewski thread ;) I remember what happened with the last one...


Tiger

miljnor started that too he's a bad bad man

:D

guilty as charged!

must say, its better than aurguing over some unsolvable point! :cheers:

:
must say, its better than aurguing over some unsolvable point! :cheers:

I like to drink a lot of beer and then aurgure over some mindless point

after drinking I would think it would be :"Mindlessly aurguing over some point" :D

My partner worked in a production cam shop and everything was a chore or "you can't do it" when it came to working in 0.0001" increments.

His son took an interest in the cam grinder and I put him to work after rigorous training sessions (including machine cleaning - major yuck in cleaning a grinder).

He knew NOTHING about the parts or the process or the machine. Since he didn't know better, hitting 0.0001 was something he did cause THAT"s what I expected and taught him to do and was expected. As he didn't know that if it was with 0.001 it would be fine, he had no choice but to compy.

He simply thought and was taught that if he didn't hit the number EXACTLY, he fubar'd the part and THAT would tick me off - had to be ticked off even when satisfied to fulfill his expectations.

The kid is now a true artisan with respect to grinding cams and he DOESN'T make mistakes. His dad STILL has the production mentality but the kid is truly awesome. His/our cams have literally helped win millions of $$$'s in a very prestigous race series.

The point being, if you teach your employees to generate simply adequate parts, they won't disappoint you. If you teach them that you expect JEWELRY from them, you'd be amazed at the things they'll do to make it even nicer than it needs to be.

I contest that human nature inately likes "shiney metal, precisely made pieces" - we tend to accept/tolerate anything less only when we come to the conclusion that we can't get the good, no, great stuff. It doesn't cost any more to hit 0.0001 tolerance than 0.001. The trick is that since we can hit the small numbers, we tend to be a bit more careful and we DON'T make scrap. NOT making scrap is crucial when you're talking onesy/twosy custom made billet cams carved out of tool steel....

Expect and demand more from your help - the ones you want to keep (whatever it takes) won't disappoint you with their performance achievements. Treat them fair and treat them well and DON'T take them for granted.

Note to Carel: I do the calcs, my help provides the art, accuracy and (with training) the craftsmanship needed to make our product what it is to/for our clients. Truly a team effort and excuses are NOT something one uses more than once for any FUBAR.

ImanCarrot
I would like to know what have you decided?

I used to answer questions thinking that I was helping. Now I qualify the person asking the question first. Anybody can ask a question, but they aren't always willing to do the work required to understand. I'll go out of my way for someone sincere, and show the door to lookers.

I also learned that some will value the information and be willing to pay, which is a lot more fun than demonstrating a process for free.
I can sell my knowledge for $1200 a day to a small group, and that's a lot better than talking to a blank stare.

I used to answer questions thinking that I was helping. Now I qualify the person asking the question first. Anybody can ask a question, but they aren't always willing to do the work required to understand. I'll go out of my way for someone sincere, and show the door to lookers.

Very well said. It gets tiresome after a while dealing with the "you provide it all for me so I don't have to think or work" attitude.

Whole 'nuther ballgame though when the person is actually looking for an assist, not an adoption ;)


Tiger

Hi Guys
Would I pass on my knowledge for free? I have and I would again. To the right type of people. There is no point is teaching someone who is unwilling or incapable of learning what you are trying to impart. My philosophy is that I was, am and will always be a sponge for knowledge so what I teach you today isn't what I'll need for tomorrow. I'm teaching it to you so I don't have to do it so I can do things that advance my career and my paypacket. If you don't pass on your knowledge to the right people you are holding yourself back. This is absolutely the case with Iain as is demonstrated by his description of his workload. If I was his boss I would also be looking to train someone to do what he does. What if he gets sick or they get even more work. Given the circumstances I believe his boss is acting reactively instead of proactively (they should have seen this coming) but still acting in the right way. Ian, is there room for you to move within your company in an upwards direction? Is there a plan that you and your boss can formulate to grow the diamond machining aspect of the business that you can manage. Have you considered not being the guy pushing the buttons but rather the guy who is developing the next innovative way of diamond machining. You can see this in a positive light if you look at it with a positive attitude. Iain, I hope your boss is a good guy and does the right thing by you. Good luck.

I was told as a young engineer by a simple but obviously enlightened man, "I've been working here for 20 years. I don't have 20 years of experience I just keep doing the first year over and over again". Food for thought.

Cheers
derekj308

This discussion reminds me of the movie..."Pay It Forward"

Memo to Derek: Theoretically and in a perfect world, you're absolutely right. However, in a real world, it don't work that way.

Did that for a new hire. SHE knew nothing about the technology but was intelligent and could be taught. Suffice it to say that women have more things to offer in some respects than a man to some corporate executives. She passed me by on the pecking order and became my boss.

She had a number of people terminated who helped her get to the top along the way. But, because we knew the "real story" behind her success/expertise, we didn't/couldn't be allowed to remain around.

When she ran out of ideas that she "developed" (actually other peoples ideas she cataloged and exploited - none she developed on her own), she moved on to another company.

This was all ultimately verified by her colleagues several years later but the damage was already done to any number of careers and lives as well as the division....

I"ve since learned that some people merely want to exploit your knowledge and skill. Some others want to outright steal it. Fewer yet want to buy it and some are happy to work with you to have you teach it to them whatever it takes - they simply want to learn.

At this time in my life, business is business so I sell my skills and price it accordingly. I've shared some with employees but only what they show they WANT to learn or need to learn when they want to do more. And when they do, I pay them more as well.

I'm hoping that someone will come along who wants to carry on my business someday. I'll sell it to them at a fair price and provide support as long as I can at that point - hopefully they'll provide a stipend for my "consultation" but that reamins to be seen.

Until and unless that happens, I'm too jaded from the previous times in my career when ill trained, exploitive people clearly and admittedly ripped me off.

Marketable skills can't be "passed on". They have to be learned, absorbed, cherished, nurtured and practiced. Exploitive people at best may learn the words but they never seem to know the musig. Some people have a job, some have a passion, some have a career and sadly, some simply make a paycheck....

Those with a passion will learn the trade, by hook or crook, no matter what. Why? because they WANT IT. Those who simply want to make a paycheck will do what they can to gain enough to get by with just enough skill in the easiest way possible.

Tthe way to tell the difference is how they ask a question: as in the difference between "what's the answer?" versus "how do I figure it out?" Should be obvious which appproach I'd be happy to provide the answer to.....

NC Cams !
VERY well said!!!

Apology to Derekj308;

I am on the west coast of North America so I get up later than a lot of people. I would have warned you what to expect after reading your post. I assume you have read the whole thread? Some of it is a bit repetitive.

Hi Guys
I have a description of the woman you speak of NC_CAMS. She is commonly known as a sociopath/psychopath. If you are interested read

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

I have read all of the posts (not to say I have absorbed all of the content) and came to the conclusion that I needed to answer Iain and not to fuel the tangents that have arisen from the discussion. Its tempting but it doesn't help Iain and others like him who are in or will have this situation placed before them. I don't remember reading Iain describing his boss in a negative way yet many of the posts I have read keep referring to negative experiences. Just because 'you' (and I'm not reffering to anyone in particular, I just mean generally) got burnt it doesn't necessarily mean that Iain will also.

I get the feeling Iain stopped reading this thread since he hasn't posted for a while.

Are you still there Iain?

Cheers
derekj308

Thanks Derek - wish I'd known that when the whole deal was going down at the time. It explains a LOT, especially when you know as much as I do about her and her past... That is definitely what was going on....

Interestlingly, when the various victims were in the process of going their separate ways and having a good bye beer to hash over bygones after the dust settled, several admitted that she could have been stopped had they let me take some action I could have uniquely taken which would have had her summarily dismissed - even her executive mentor couldn't have saved her from THAT.

Sadly, they were afraid of her special executive "connection" (if you know what I mean) and talked me out of taking the step. Would have probably worked but nothing is a lead pipe cinch when it comes to corporate politics - especially something that would have turned THAT ugly. Interestingly, even professionals who specialize in personnel law and employment issues didn't have a strategy to deal with the problem when I outlined it to them... It was THAT bizarre....

Fortunately, our paths haven't crossed since. Don't know what I'd do if it did but it wouldn't be pretty - even after 25 years....

Anyway, I hope Iain has gotten some ideas from the post. Good bad and indifferent, there are only a few ways to deal with it and none of them will be stress free and each has down and/or up sides. Sadly, my feelings are on the negative side for clearly understandable reasons.

Hopefully, he's got enough ideas by now to formulate an appropriate strategy for his situation. I hope he fomulates and chooses a good one....

Speaking from an employer point of view I teach what I want known not everything
I know.
A good way to make your skills shine even more.

Face it corporations still expect the loyalty to be given to them as your lucky to even have a job so why shouldn't you be like a old dog. Yet when the loyalty is sought in return by the employee there is none to be found.

This is why most people with any intelligence, ability to learn and education only stay places a few years then move on before they are moved on by management. Long term employment these days means 5 years.

I for example have a degree in Industrial Engineering plus extensive knowledge of computer networking and hardware and I work for big pharma. They hired me because I have sets of skills that can be applied to all areas of our production facility. The problem arises with the fact that it would appear I am the only one here with those capabilities. Thus who do you think they expect to do projects and technology based improvements, me thats who! Then there are the people that have been here 25 years and if you change anything on them they are lost because in 25 years all they learned or desired to learn was just the task they were asked to do, stray from that and its deer in the headlights.

I have been here 3 years and will stomach a few more to get my magic 5 years and than I will likely blow this joint even thought the pay and benefits are good the work situation is out of control and expectations are beyond reasonable. So in managements over active imagination that I can do 5 different technical things at the same time as doing the most menial of tasks they are in fact making me look at options for other employment.

Then when I leave the 25 year people will still just be doing what they have done and not a thing more to advance the facility. Meanwile these people have 5 weeks vacation a year at which time I have to do my jobs and theirs all the while being expected to implement new technology and then teach it to the techs to operate. yet guess what happens when I go on vacation? No one does my job!!

You can teach a monkey to do just about anything so long as you don't deviate from what you ask them to do.

So when I leave those long timers will still be here because they know nothing else, don't care to learn and obviously never much did care to learn so they are the sheeple that go bahhhhh and nod in agreement with management.

I told the HR lady just this week that they hire engineers and chemists for their ability to problem solve and analyze issues but when you analyze what they tell you versus what they do and bring up that your being screwed they suddenly no longer like your ability to think or analyze they just want you to line up with the rest of the sheeple and go bahhhhhhhhhhhh. I told her straight up if management is always telling us one thing and preaching it as gospel then turning around and not coming through or practicing what they preach then they should not be surprised when they are called on it by the very people they hired to think! Needless to say the 25 year people never seem to have any problems with anything.

Sometimes I think being a retard that laughs and smiles at everything without a care in the world. Doesn't seem like a bad gig.. I like tator tots uh huh!!!!

Memo to Bowman: the HR lady was NOT your friend nor is she to be trusted. She is/was hired to protect the corp. interest against wrongful dismissal issues and other legal crap, NOT YOUR INTERESTS in ANY WAY SHAPE NOR FORM. They DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU, no matter what they say.

I too had a conversation like that. Each and every verb, noun and adjective were documented and used to "document" things for what ultimately became my exit interview - all twisted and reconstrewed but documented "properly" none the less. THe broad from HR wouldn't even look at me during the "exit interview" as she knew what went on and what she did to grease the slides.

Make sure you have ALL your "tools" documented and duplicated in a safe place. You won't have or be given time to pack up your belongings when the corp decides to expedite your ability to seek gainful employment elsewheres.

In such situations, you may be expected to document stuff but I wouldn't - be prepared to be strong armed under "pain" of loss of any severence - this can be STRONG coercement so be ready. If your replacement is as sharp as mgt thinks he/she will be, he/she can SURELY figure out what you did.no???? if they can't, why should you care??? They won't ask you for your help so pack up and move on and don't look back.

Watch your back Bowman, you may have already pulled the pin on your grenade. You can bet that ALL your computer access via the corporate network is being watched with a spyware program. Happened to me.

Moreover, do NOT use the corp e-mail for personal ANYTHING - not even to tell the wife you''ll be late for dinner and do NOT use corp netork printer for same reasons (I was confronted with nearly 2 reams of paper that they printed off until they finally found a page I couldn't explain to their satisfaction 1/2 way into second ream.)

They are also probably logging ALL your phone use. Be REAL careful with who and what you CC in e-mails. CYA, big time as once HR is aware of employee "disgruntlement", they start watching what's going on with clear sights on "eliminating trouble makers" and to protect the corp. They care less about you at this point.

Don't get caught with corp stuff on your person or at home or on on floppy or on your computer or anywhere it shoudn't be - more "evidence". Trust me, you are now being watched and this is not black hellicopter, paranoia crap. This is how they do things anymore and it is all legal.

By the way, if you have a lease car that is company related and you paid for any or all of it thru payroll deduction, and they want the car IMMEDIATELy if you're let go, demand CASH refund on the spot _ under the circumstances, their "check" is not "trustable anymore" for what should be obvious reasons (cash is legal tender for public and private debts - read the currency and use the precendence). Otherwise, tell them you're driving it until the end of the month you paid for - the car is yours cuz you pre-paid the lease.

In my case, they expected me to IMMEDIATELY give them back the car and LITERALLY walk home, during depth of winter ON THE SPOT with no cash refund nor even a check. I kept the car until the end of month and they ate their words trying to get it back.

Like a boss said to me when he overheard me explaining something a former employer thought I knew NOTHING about, "NC, you know MUCH too much....". The power and control people tend to eliminate people they can't maintain power and control over. Smart, well educated and creative people tend to be real hard to gain absolute control over.... Lemmings and sheep are compatively easy and that's what some corp suits want/need.

You have been warned....take heed. I just went thru that power, control, HR "we understand", "exit interview" crap at my last corp job which is why I'm paddling my own boat currently.... I wish I knew where they grow people like that - they are ruining the creative spirit that built this country and our phenomendal technical advancements....

NC Cams I know what you mean and I totally have seen all that before myself. Thing is they know I don't care and the only exit interview they will get from me is one they surely won't want to last long.

They grow people like that in Law School and than they tell the HR smucks what to say its so obvious in their wording in every email they send. All form letters with catch phrases. They can can me they can watch me they can do whatever they want and I can bring all the documentation I have as to what they have been doing to the regulators and get there arse examined with a fine tooth comb.

As for the internet and email I would say the same as you I imagine they watch and log etc since some lawwyer told them too already. As for access I have Admin access and if they think a quick out the door means a quick I am out of there network they are woefully mistaken. But than thats what I mean they don't know shat about shat unless its in a book they got from someone at corp telling them what to say. I kiss no ones arse and these yes pansies can live their life knowing the only thing getting them ahead is their head up their bosses arse or their ability to get ahead by giving it.

United Corporation of Americo pass the tacos please!

Bowman: they can and if peeved enough can and will crush you with legal challenges, especially if they try the "trade secret" attack plan.

In such cases, you have to prove your innocence as it "when did you stop beating your wife???" Reply "I don't beat my wife." "good, when did you quit???".

If you have "whistle blower" coverage, perhaps things are different. In my case, not even "handicap discrimination" meant anything.

Such situations never remain un-ugly....

NC- you are so right and it is a shame we have to deal with these things. Imagine if we could put all the issues like this away and get stuff done wow what a concept that would be.

Its not like I think I am indispensible because in a corporation everyone is. I always like to think of it as motivation to get my own thing going and do more fishing and hunting. Life is to short to have these anxieties over entities and people that in the end are nothing more than roids during the week I suffer from.

This is my last post to this thread since I have been trying to not worry about the crap I have no control over and focus on the things I do. Such as building a CNC Router :) That is what I love about this site and the internet in general is that the true people who love this are the only ones really here and people of our mindset are often eager to impart knowledge and to gain it when ever and where ever we can simply because it fascinates us. As others have said and I know this to be true that to teach is to better understand the topic yourself especially if its applied hands on not just theory crap. So to get to the original poll question yeah I help when I can if I can unless the person is a flat out jerk then their on their own.

The other thing I enjoy about this site is seeing people completely new to machining, linear motion and CAD CAM in general so intrigued that they want to give it a go people usually enjoy helping these others and thats what this site is all about from the lowly lil (but cool as hell) lego cnc router to the Biggest Mills and Lathes we are one anothers reference resource thats why we are here. Plus lets face it you don't find our types all over the place so for a lot of us this is the extent of our interaction with people when it comes to machining etc because other people have no interest or its totally over their heads.

The truly smart people know that there is always more to know..

The difference between genius and stupidy is that even genius has its limits.. Stupidity on the other hand knows no bounds.

Peace to all and I will be expecting quick replies to any questions I may post in the future else I will refer you to the HR Dept of CNCZONE :p

Now where was the confounded CNC machine?

Perhaps this thread should be retitled, "Corporate Politics 101".

Seems as though we've run the gammut of common and not so common issues that a creative thinking, technically inclined individual will run into in the jungle of corporate life. It's only going to get worse as 3rd world pressures become more prevalent on our once envied lifestyle.

We could be at or in the denouemont of same....

Agree, disagree, there's a solution for just about any situation....

Hey Guys,

I have read a lot of this post, see a lot of views, and just left the Corp. in the dust. They truely do not want people to think, they want robots that just say ok, what ever you want. "Please, check your brain at the door on the way in" and watch the door hit your behind on the way OUT.

Corps. make a real miss and HR makes things worse.

Sharing information with a person with True Passion isn't a problem.

I may not have a decade of experience like most, but the Passion Will Always Be There In my Heart and Soul. 24/7 365 even on Vacations.

No pun intended, just PERSONAL OPINION.

As for the problems that lead to this thread, I hope for the best outcome in favor of the individual, not the "CORPS.".

tobyaxis

Unless you have a contract or Union the company does not need a reason to fire people by law. (Unless you live in France)

I just love it when the new guy comes in to the job and knows more than anyone
how to run this company that has been around for 150 years so far.

I never spend time looking for people to fire I watch for people to inspire and promote.
We are in the business of making money and want anyone that wants to help increase
our bottom line.

When I find employees focused on personal politics I will get "rid" of that potential virus that might spread in to my work force. I dont have time for that as it detracts from making money (why we are here).

I love sheep they are the backbone of the work force they get the job done day in and day out. Sheep are content with a paycheck.
The new guys always want My job! well they cant have it I have it and I WILL protect it. If you want it you need to be a sheppard.

When it comes time to pick someone to help up top it wont be someone who does not like then company and wont be here long it will probably be a sheep.

Unless you have a contract or Union the company does not need a reason to fire people by law. (Unless you live in France)


This is correct but many times with a qualifier. I don't know the situation across the States but in Canada you can terminate an employee without cause provided you give adequate notice or you pay at least the legally required severance which varies but is normally something like 1 week pay for each year of service with a minimum of one pay period and a maximum of 5 weeks.

Problems arise because many times the company, and by this I mean all the people with decision making authority, are petty and cheap. They will go to any length to dig up 'cause' just so they can save a few weeks pay. I only have contempt for that type of pettiness and I find it very annoying because it is assumed that this is typical behaviour. It isn't and I know that from personal experience as an employee and from my practices as an employer.

And for the people who whine about 'corporate spying' what would you do as an employer when you are legally responsible for the results of your emplyees' actions, inactions, irresponsibility and even criminal acts? Also what would you do if you are a publicly listed corporation and by law have to maintain records of all email transmissions in and out including spam?

Thanks to everyone who posted. It really has gave me food for thought although I'm still no nearer to making a decision- it seems that the mojority have voted to "pass on knowledge" but many people have highlighted many negative aspects of doing this.. I'm even more confused as to what would be the most secure thing to do...

I guess I've boiled it down to 1 question: What can I possibly gain from passing on this knowledge?

It would benefit the company, i make them about 10K pure profit a month so i guess they're thinking "hey if there were two of them doing it, we'd double profits".

I really dunno what to do and it's keeping me awake at night *scrathes his head* I don't want to make the wrong decision.

If your current boss has some of the attitude as expressed in post #105 (IE: desirous of "sheep"), take the hint and DON'T pass it on.

Some folks are only interested in unilateral satisfaction (I, me, my, mine). Being exploited is one thing, taking advantage of one's skills is something entirely different. A sheep herder is only interested in the wool and/or meat on the table.....

If you are NOT valued for your skills, think of how the employer values you as a person? Fresh meat to be expoited or an asset to invest in for further/future greater returns. As an instructor explained in a Management and Labor Relations course I had to take for my degree requirements indicated:

A person who enjoys what they do and gets good job satisfaction from their work will work longer and harder and more productively than a person who's strictly there for the money.

Give the former more money and they appreciate it as they're getting paid for their passion. Give the latter more and he'll shut up for a while but he'l start crabbing for more money cuz he wasn't satisfied where it really counts.

A valued employee is one that you do what you can to keep - you'll do it while you can but realize that the person may be destined for a higher purpose. You're merely a stepping stone on his way.

In the mean time, you try to create an environment where the person feels valued and a contributing member. For some work, a simple warm body that does repetitive stuff is quite satisficient. In other cases, you need a human being who is a contributor - not just a paycheck maker. I have both situations going on now and they each create their challenges with regard to management practices.

Ultimately, your desision to stay, go, pass on or clam up is yours. However, you'll know when the feeling is right to share the information and if you should. You WON'T feel threatened or be suspicious of the intent - you'll willingly do it because it makes sense for you and the recipient.

If you have to think long and hard about it, DON'T. It clearly is the right time, place or situation to share your skills. When it is time and/or appropriate, it will just happen....

Having worked for companies who are there "just to make money" versus ones who "make money making good product", I'd be more satisfied working for the latter than the former. Besides, the former tend to do a lousy job of making product hence they have a hard time making money.

Example: GM is trying to make money, Toyota is trying to make great cars. Who's in better shape, all things considered???

Good luck and I hope you can find a place that satisfies your needs as in "needs" and "need$".

I have posted in this thread but have not directly addressed your initial questions which I thought were actually non-questions and I will explain. In order to give a person sound advice I think it is necessary to try and consider the situation from a personal point of view and phrase the advice in this context. As a caveat I have to point out I am in Canada so some of what I write below may not be as applicable in other countries but I think the principles are. You said; "My boss wants me to train someone up". I am a boss and in general when I tell an employee I want them to, or would like them to, or could they do something the politely phrased request is in reality an order; they do it or face the consequences. This is a prerogative of the employer, instructing (ordering if you like) the employee as to the performance of their duties. However for the order to be enforceable, i.e. for there to be consequences upon lack of obedience, there is a fundamental constraint on the employer; the order must fall within the range of duties that are consistent with the employee's job duties. I, personally, have another constraint. My employees, understandably, have a certain reluctance toward telling me I am an idiot; therefore I try to avoid idiotic requests no matter how they are phrased. In your thread starter, given the background you provided, the request was idiotic and at that stage I felt there was no advice that could be given other than "tell him he is an idiot" which does not qualify as constructive.

Your most recent post puts a different flavor on the situation. The idiocy of the request is not diminished but if your boss has not followed it up yet possibly he realise how idiotic it was and is unsure how to proceed. After all few people have the self confidence to walk in to a group of their emplyees, or only up to one, and announce 'that was a bloody idiotic suggestion wasn't?" even if the question is clearly rhetorical - although I do have a long term employee who has raised an eyebrow on such occasions.

So I think it is possible the next move is up to you. Assuming your description of how busy you are is correct you cannot act on the request as it is phrased; actually no matter whether you are busy or not it is too idiotic to act on any way. What kind of people is/are your boss/es? A group of hotshot arrogant engineers or someone who recognises that skilled diamond turners don't just fall of trees. If they are the former don't waste any more time; give your notice and move on. If the latter give them another chance; bring the topic up and explain that as phrased the request was unworkable but given the prospects in the job it is worth trying to see if it is possible to bring in additional employees and train them up without you having a nervous breakdown. Explain it would be a distinct expansion of your job duties and responsibilities and would require a change in status to afford you some authority over the trainees. It would also mean that it was imperative that you get proper time off and things like that because stressing you further by overwork will not set an encouraging prospect in front of the trainees. Also if you are so stressed you cannot keep your cool in front of the trainees then they are likely to bail putting everything back to square one.

This situation has the potential to be very positive or very negative; I think you should drop any thoughts along the line of; "would you lot do it for nothing? or am I just being selfish" and "what would be the most secure thing to do...". Instead you should be focussing on; "can I structure this opportunity so that it works?". Focus on the positive, try to make it work without compromising your principles or being a push over. If it cannot be made to work then move on, take it as a learning experience and use it to try and foresee if similar situations are developing in the future so you have an earlier chance to divert them to a positive path

Thanks Geof, your posts, as always hit the mark. Especialy about the "look at it like an opportunity".

It really is impossible for me to train and maintain production at current levels, I'm working lates, weekends and holidays... haven't had a holiday since October last year. I don't think my boss has thought this through really.

He does understand how difficult it is to get Diamond Machinsts though... took him 4 months to get a replacement (me) for the last guy that left and he was using agencies that were advertising all across the UK.

Many thanks for the sound advice.

This is going seem off-topic but you may see some kind of similie here.. I paid for a first aid course while I was on my week off of work. I passed and then became a qualified first aider. When my boss found out he was happy, because up until then we didn't have one at our workshop. So I put it to him that if he wanted me to be the appointed person he should perharps cross my palm with a bit more silver. The end being that he couldn't understand why I should have a pay rise and said I was being a bit mean. Now don't get me wrong, If theres a major issue with some in distress I will do my best, but this is MY knowledge bought and paid for by me,and I don't think any boss has a right to demand my knowledge for nothing. I realise that they are trying to save money but nobody gets anything for nothing. I'm paid to write programs on a cnc lathe, and am very good at what I do. My boss pays me to use my knowledge for this, and consequently I feel he owns the program I wrote, however he doesn't own my mind and experience. Be it creating procrams, putting a bandage on or my ability to sire children. Tell your governer to get stuffed!!!! We make the wheels turn and somebody else will always take a good setter. (climbs off his soap box and retreats quietly into the shadows from whenst he came!!)

I only teach or train people that i like. You can't expect to be paid for it, and, as it happened to me, most people that tought me something were not expecting some kind of reward, they just did it.
On the other issue, I do not think any company has any rights about anything you know whatsoever, they can always fire you for not teaching your coworkers, but besides that, What can the company do? Inject you some thruth serum?
The knowledge that we aquire over the years has some value, but no company can have any claims on whats inside your head.

CND-Haas jockey

Sounds like you should ask them to pay for the trainning course you took. I don't think they are asking you to "train" the other employee's in first aid response??? are they??? If so that could carry some legal ramifications for you and them if someone is hurt and later decided to sue.......
I would,also remind them that your first aid is only good for 1/2/3??? years before needing refreshed...something that they should pay for also if they expect you to respond to an emergency situation. The "due diligency" is on the employer to protect the safety of their employee's...something to maybe bring up in a company meeting....
i.e."how do you plan to look out for us in the event of an emergency"??
First time I asked this, I got shoulder shrugs. Now we have people trainned in first aid,fire respone,spill response, and a plan for evac, as well as designated people to shut off main elec, gas to the plant. A general meeting area in the event of alarm and a P.M. service on our sprinkler system... our insurance premium also went down after the fire marshall inspected and reviewed our emergency respone plan......
food for thought.......

Very well said.


I have posted in this thread but have not directly addressed your initial questions which I thought were actually non-questions and I will explain. In order to give a person sound advice I think it is necessary to try and consider the situation from a personal point of view and phrase the advice in this context. As a caveat I have to point out I am in Canada so some of what I write below may not be as applicable in other countries but I think the principles are. You said; "My boss wants me to train someone up". I am a boss and in general when I tell an employee I want them to, or would like them to, or could they do something the politely phrased request is in reality an order; they do it or face the consequences. This is a prerogative of the employer, instructing (ordering if you like) the employee as to the performance of their duties. However for the order to be enforceable, i.e. for there to be consequences upon lack of obedience, there is a fundamental constraint on the employer; the order must fall within the range of duties that are consistent with the employee's job duties. I, personally, have another constraint. My employees, understandably, have a certain reluctance toward telling me I am an idiot; therefore I try to avoid idiotic requests no matter how they are phrased. In your thread starter, given the background you provided, the request was idiotic and at that stage I felt there was no advice that could be given other than "tell him he is an idiot" which does not qualify as constructive.

Your most recent post puts a different flavor on the situation. The idiocy of the request is not diminished but if your boss has not followed it up yet possibly he realise how idiotic it was and is unsure how to proceed. After all few people ha