I'm the only person at my place that does Diamond Machining. I do it quite well... in fact so well that orders are ramping up to the point where i got so much work that I come in early, leave late and work through lunch... aint had a holiday (including Xmas) since October last year.

My boss wants me to train someone up. M & G Code programming for CNC turning, ACAD design, QA measurement on Talysurf etc etc.

My question is... would you lot do it for nothing? or am I just being selfish?

Cheers.

Iain.

Legally it is quite simply. The Intellectual Property is owned by the business. If you are self-employed the IP belongs to you. If you are employed the IP belongs to the boss. They created the environment making it possible to create the IP for.... them. I have had customers who wanted detailed drawings, source software etc. . There is no way they get it. A boss asks in principle for what is his. You should see their valuing of this situation by the end of the month on your bankaccount. The labour of training can be seen as a different type of employment, a trainer-trainee situation, which should put you in another scale. So story told, if you take the last choice as employee, they can call it obstruction.

Carel

Strange situation,

I to have ben there. Here is the thing to keep in mind is it took you years to get realy good at what you do and it will most likly take a long time for some one else to get as good as you are now this is a piont that need to be told to your boss. This is a two sided coin in the event he (your boss) is getting you some help (I.E. all work no play, will age you very quickly) AKA burnt out.

Seeing as you will have to teach and be responsible for what is learned I would think a raise in pay would be in order. Else the alternate is a new job or self imployment.
This is a strong possition to be in, handle it more commen sense and less emotion and it should work out great for all.

John

You may notice while you are training someone that your combined productivity rate goes in the toilet for a while, but that your wage continues to be paid. If you were the boss, this would mean that you would be working overtime to still complete the work until the new employee becomes productive enough to help attack the pile of work.

Believe it or not, work is not the be all and end all of your life. It is a diversion. YOU need to have a life, and take vacations, because at the end of the trail, work is a means to an end, not the end in itself. A new trainee can help you get your life back.

If you don't pass the skill along than no one would know anything the only thing that should die with age is a bad attitude

It depends on what you mean by "training him for free". If I were asked to come in on my own time and train him (after work... for free) then I would say "hell no". If it were part of work, and getting paid for it, then it is part of the job.

In some cases, machining simple parts is just a matter of throwing a substrate on the CNC and pushing go. In other cases, and I assume diamond machining is one of them, it's an art. No matter how good you are as a teacher, and no matter how good your student is, you may not be able to pass alone the "art" part of it. I know some people who are very good at doing, but suck at teaching. I also know some people who are very good at teaching, but I wouldn't let them near a machine if they were the last technician in the place.

In my case I make violins. I can take a piece of wood and flex it in my fingers or tap on it and listen to the tone and tell a lot from it. One skill I have been developing recently is the sound of the scraper or plane as it cuts through the wood changes as the wood becomes thinner and nearer to the perfect thickness. This is the art part of my work that really can't be taught, but must be experienced over many years. And either you feel it or you don't. I'm assuming that at least half of what you do is at the art level like that.

It sounds like what your talking about is putting together a whole cariculum (writing out a teaching plan, lecture notes, getting it approved by the boss for completeness, and then teaching it). May take several weeks of dedicated work. Can your boss really afford to not have you on the machine for that long?

And if there were another company in the area who could use your skills for a higher wage. And if you left without the time to train a replacement (two weeks would not be enough). Then you boss would be really screwed and your skills would be safe.

Steven

If the knowledge was gained 'on the clock' then you have no choice but to pass it on 'for free'. In this case, the company paid you to learn it therefore the knowledge is not your property.

Scott

The Knowledge maynot be yours but the skill is and when you go so will the skill

Believe it or not, work is not the be all and end all of your life. It is a diversion.

The VP of one of the companies I used to work for used to tell me family is first. Family is up here (yeah you can't see the hand gesture)

Work is second. It is down here.

But it is a long way between family and work. Family is always that much more important.

Many thanks for the replies... keep em comming.

I can clear up one point. My 20 years of optical knowledge was not gained at this job- I've only been here for 6 months. I gained it at various companies- Barr & Stroud, Atomic Weapons Research Est, British Aerospace and MBDA Missile System to name a few.

I can see both sides and am all mixed up... dunno what to do.

Iain

if you were hire to machine that your job not to train without compensation it your skill the want you to share if the want you to share knowledge give them a book

if you were hire to machine that your job not to train without compensation it your skill the want you to share if the want you to share knowledge give them a book

Better yet, if you have the time, write the book and charge them for it.

A lot of the stuff their asking for is basic though, the cad/cam stuff. For that you can just give them a book or tell then to send your student out for a course.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but what about info that you've accumulated outside of work. Ie, I've been researching and getting my head around CNC for the past 6-8 months. I've invested about 2-6 hr's each and every day and usually even more than that on weekends [ I know I don't have a life, so don't bother telling me :D] , now say my boss finds out what I'm doing in my garage and say's "great, now you can design/build me a plasma cutter for the shop" Can I say NO, not w/out paying me for the info I've got in my head.??

Curious...

Jerry

I was in the same position a few times. Mostly I just taught as opportunity presented and that was fine with everyone.

One instance though, I was working commission and told the owner that I'd train if they assigned the trainee to me as a helper and paid me commission on his completions to offset my lost time/income. Turned out the "boss" was just looking for freebies and got pretty upset that I wouldn't agree to be penalised for his benefit.

Case by case consideration, I suppose.


Tiger

I don't want to hijack the thread, but what about info that you've accumulated outside of work.... Can I say NO, not w/out paying me for the info I've got in my head.??

Curious...

Jerry

Of course you can say no and insist on a separate negotiation aside from your employment. The employer has no investment in your knowledge of cnc and no claim on it.

Might cost you the job, if the employer has the rather typical feudal attitude about employees (ie- serfs to be ordered about at whim), but your knowledge of cnc is the result of your own off the job time and effort and has nothing to do with the employer, hence is not the employers to lay claim to in any fashion. (imo, anyway)


Tiger

JerryFlyGuy: Skills you develop separately from your work at home (like inventing winecorkscrew #65892 as a bookkeeper) are your own Intellectual Property. If your boss wants to use incidentaly these skills, you make an agreement for the case and charge according to the agreement.

Carel

but your knowledge of cnc is the result of your own off the job time (imo, anyway)
Tiger
THAT THE QUESTION WHAT DID YOU REALY LEARN OFF THE JOB. MOST CNC PROGRAMER AND SET-UP PEOPLE LEARN ON THE JOB AND ON THE CLOCK. IF YOUR THE LEADMAN THEN IT'S YOUR JOB. DESIGN LIKE GERRY tHE FLY SAYS IS NOT CNC. BUT ENGEERING THAT SOMETHING YOUR BOSS HAS TO PAY FOR. WEATHER IT YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE. BUT WHEN IT ON PAPER THE MACHINIST MUST DO WHAT THE PRINT SAYS EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT WRONG!!

ive taught alot of people alot of things. it always has and always will make me happy.

beleive me. your 30 years of optical experience will not be stolen by some trainee. assuming half your skill is based on hands on experience, it would take decades for most people to catch up - add to that the craftyness of diamond\gem cutting and what you really have is probably a chance for a)an easier job(assuming you are on salary) b)the possibility of becomming the leader of a whole division of gem cutters.... c)the chance to learn something yourself throguh pupil\mentor interaction... d)the chance to really show your employeer how valuable you are when they see how long it takes another person to assume your responsibilities.

calling this 'free' is disingenuous and snotty. you didnt learn how to operate these extremely expensive machines and processes in your backyard - you learned it on other people machines. AND they paid you... they didnt even do it for free. they taught you for NEGATIVE $s.. suckers!

...beleive me. your 30 years of optical experience will not be stolen by some trainee. assuming half your skill is based on hands on experience, it would take decades for most people to catch up....

Excellent point and well put!

It sounds like this job is as much (or more) of an art than it is a process (the diamond machining part, not the CAD or software aspect). There is little a trainee can do other than attempt to gain your artistic insights. Perhaps the training you provide will shave a few years off the learning curve, but it still takes experience and that's not, as you know, exactly teachable.

Scott

it is kind of funny that we will help out each other on this site. But can't do it a work?

I know a fellow that trained a new worker to fix and adjust mail sorting machines. The company then let the guy go due to his 18 years of seniority and wage/benifit package compared to the new guy. All worked out for the better for my friend as he ended up in a less stressful and better paying job doing the same thing due to his experience and knowledge. The old company has been losing $$$ due to downtime caused by the new guys lack of experience so it is especially sweet justice for my friend.

On the other hand I came up through a shop and everyone with experience was expected to impart their ways of doing things. In a tool room that specialized in one off form/pierce dies, welding fixtures, and slitter/form roll machines, there was an eclectic variety of ways to get the job done. Machinist trainees and apprentices would get put with other machinists/ tool and die makers and as each imparted the way he went about squaring a block, roughing, finishing, or even attacking the entire job the newbee would be able to pick and choose the method that best worked with his own style of doing things.

The beauty of the shop was that very few machines had their own specific day in and day out operators. The broad depth of knowledge from planning the material draw and steps of operation for each job made a well rounded out tradesman. Now during it all, I went to tech college to get better at math on my own dime. Should I have begrudged the effort I spent advancing my knowledge? It added job security. It allowed me to do my job with less effort. I have to admit I didn't always see comensorate raises to my new knowledge which ultimately helped profits, but there is the sense of self satisfaction that is a worthy goal in and of itself.

I try to give as full depth of explaination/knowledge as the person is comfortable with. The thing is, I enjoy teaching others. If I die tomorrow, all of it is gone forever. If one person is aided or one bit of my knowledge lives on through the training of another, I become immortal in a sense. What I learned continues onward.

I say train the guy. Don't sweat production to the point of ulcers. You've got a few years until he is good. Who knows, the guy might be only good enough to hit the button and make chips. That is still no reason not to enjoy some comraderie. a coffee break, or just general shooting the ****.

Even though I ticked the yes box, I hadnt read your post first.
After reading the post I would say NO in your situation.
There are a few issues here.

Are you employed to drill or teach? If your answer is "do any thing the boss asks me to do", what would you say if he now told you your job has now changed, he now wants you to scrub toilet bowls all day? You are faced with a choice to comply or leave. You have the same choice here. You are employed because you have a rare skill. If he wants to change the terms of employment, then its up to you to test him out, and how much he values yours skills. What is stopping you from setting up your own bussiness and doing the same job, why should your boss profit from you if you can do it all for yourself anyway. Now he wants to have more do the same thing for him as well, and he doesnt want to pay for it. If your skill is so rare and so called for, Id drop the boss and go out for myself.

I bet if bussiness went bad and the boss had to lay you off, he wouldnt be posting in some forum asking if it was morally right to get rid of this guy.

Sorry I might sound rather anti boss here. But in my experience they are all similar, they will get whatever you give them, and if you put in over and above they will sap the benifits of that too, but when you are no use to them, they will ditch you like a used tissue.

Ynneb, some of what you say is true, however there are some other factors to take into concideration also. #1 has your[or his] employer treated you fairly in the past. #2 Are you terribly overloaded w/ work. #3 if you lose your job, do you have other networked solutions [ another job in the wings] #4 is it possible that your boss is actually trying to help you out and take some of the stress off [ more likely a long term thing] #5 Is business growing faster than you can keep up. #6 Does he have future plans that might include a larger contract and the need to have "two or more trained tech's " on paper to get the contract.

There's usually more than just what your getting. Now if they guy has a history of " My-way-itis " and you've never really been treated as a valued fella in the shop then you may have some grounds to stand for some fair treatment. If not then maybe its time for a change of venue.

I've also heard of the opposite thing happening to an employer. A schedule had been set that everyone had agreed to, this included Xmas holidays and who had to work over [ I think it was a fair percentage of the shop] , come Xmas eve, the whole shop [ personel] just walked out and said see ya after new years. Whats an employer to do at that point?? So fair treatment can be a two way street.

My 2 cents.. and outside perspective..

Jerry

Benny; Your major paragraph brought up some good points but the tone on which you finished your post is offensive and distasteful. From my own experience of spending several thousand dollars sending an employee to technical school and then coaching them for almost two years in programming and setup only to have them abandon their job a few months later I could generalize and say all employees will just take you for a ride and are not worth doing anything for. But I don't because I have some employees who have stayed with me for ten and fifteen years or more. Perhaps you should take an inward look; many times the treatment or attitude you receive in any situation is merely a reflection of the treatment or attitude you hand out.

Jerry; you are more long winded but I guess I type slower. :)

Jerry; you are more long winded but I guess I type slower. :)


So is that a good thing? :D there's lots more I could say on the subject.. but I won't want to get tooo windy... Sask is windy enough.. :)

Jerry

Its your choice if you want to take offence, I did say "from MY experience"

In two jobs now I have suggested two big ideas to my bosses, and they got me to set it up for them, they made huge profits from the whole excersize "HUGE PROFITS" When I asked for a small pay rise they got rid of me. I take offence to that. I do look inwards more often than I should at times, I have constantly given people the benifit of the doubt, only to be exploited many times. Those bosses also took offence when I was bold enough to ask for a small reward for my idea and contribution. Thay ALSO said to me that I needed to take a look at myself. I dont need to say any more.

I'm so glad he started this thread. I'm looking to hire in the near future and the shear terror of spending much of my time training someone who could leave at a moments notice is driving me insane.

I'm the only person who clicked the, 'only if I teach it wrong,' box and I was only joking well, half joking at least!! I live in a VERY densely populated (machine shops that is,) area and would like to know being on the other side of this problem, "Can I draw up a legally binding document, so as anything my newbie learns as far as special fixturing and machining strategy cannot be passed on to future employers?"

If the answer is yes, I would do that in a heartbeat... If the answer is no, I'm looking at total automation, (more profits for me and cheap / unskilled labor loading parts...)

The downside as I see it being this... I feel morally obligated to build a business that pays employees VERY well, so they can enjoy a standard of living I would like if I were them... I don't fully subscribe to the 'I built the company, I deserve all the profits,' mentality...

I've spent twelve years learning my trade, 2 years on my own perfecting it and now am starting to gain nationwide publicity in a very big hurry... I personally have no choice but to expand shortly but the direction I go is largely dependent on how much trust I have for people outside my immediate family... In my case, it's not that the product is altogether new but the process to get my cost down is~

Like my quote says, "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese." How do I keep from being the first mouse?!

i dunno. if scientists devloping crazy things routinely give all the rights to their inventions to whatever entity funded the work, i think people who run big expensive equipment, or make their living off the corporate infrastructure provided by someone else, you have some obligations when its work hours. i do solidworks modeling for work. i have taught many tricks to co-workers, and they have helped me out as well. not quite the same, considering there are 20 engineers designing in solidworks in the r&d lab, but at some companies, knowing solidworks would be all they need 1 person for... that person could be replaced if magically someone else(like, eeek, the bosses kid) learns the skill..if this is your case, i suppose that is a reason to be concerned..

g'luck. im done thinking about this! it is interesting to see different view points. its like scrupples for the specially skilled..

My day job is as the head Oracle DBA programmer in a busy hospital and we have a high turnover of staff, they come, get experiance and knowledge ( from me ) and leave usually after 2 years for better money. I guess I stay because I get enough money to be comfy and I enjoy the work, but teaching someone else really makes you learn and understand what you think you know. I personally have no regrets from passing on information and knowledge over the past 20 years and I have some very good friends for it.

I don't know what the engineering job market is like but I guess human nature never changes.

Some people will not be interested ( just a job ) they will learn just enough to do the job and work just to the hours, often clock watching.

Some want to learn because they can get more money, or your job, if they don't get more money they leave as soon as they have the knowledge. They often don't have the experiance but a lot of course certificates and nearly as many jobs on their cv's.

Very occasionally you get someone who is really interested and wants to learn for themselves. You get just as much out of this person as you put in, often more. They tend to question a lot and come up with their own ideas, look after these people.

In the U.S. companies have beat up the worker so bad in the last 20 year. That peoples no long care about helping on the job. We know that once someone else has the same skill level of the senior machinist and get half the pay and vacation time. Guess who going out the door. I only show young machinist the right way and never show the fast way

What ever happened to LOYALTY between employer and emploee? Seems both sides are just as suspicious of the other these days.....

I was an apprentice, know I have a license and many years experience.I got this through work,experimenting on their equipment, breaking things at their expense.
Now, I can say I am efficient at what I do, and as such,I pass my knowledge on to new apprentices, just as I was once taught. Seems only natural to me.

Proffesional trades people will always show and teach the younger and new...that is life. One day when you are retired you can look back and be proud to have passed the torch so to speak.
The only time I would say "no" is if the trainee was truely not interested,reckless, or disrespectful to you as a trades person, that would be a waste of everyone's time.

Besides, sometimes it's nice to watch from the sidelines with clean hands as your apprentice grinds away at a problem getting all dirty and frusterated. :D

Always reminds me of Luke Skywalker and Yoda......"Do, or Do not, There is no "Try"

perhaps you can spin this into your advantage by asking for "supervisor" trainning....?Could open a door for that way?

Just my 2cents

What ever happened to LOYALTY between employer and emploee?

This question can be answer best by Auto Works, Enron Works, Coal Miners just to name a few of the.................... Tens of Thousands of Workers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One day when you are retired you can look back

....And say how could they screw me out of my pension and retirement benefits those FUC..............SShOLES!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

What the heck, I'm retired and if it helps someone do their thing easier, I'm all for sharing! One thing for sure, I can't bring it with me, anymore than I can bring all my tools!

Eric

helping here in the zone is not like training your replacement at work and lets face the fact it happen every day now a days and it will be a long time before people care about companies the way they once did and it to bad because everyone losses

New rules, gentlemen:

Management doesn't want/expect you to stay in your job for life anymore. They expect you to "move one".

They don't want the burden of your benefits, healthcare, etc.

Some will use and exploit you, especially in the auto industry where jobs are getting scarce and there is a clear pattern of "use them up, spit them out" developing.

I was taught to get job and gain "security". That didn't happen due to my independant nature and outspokeness. They say the cynicism is an impolite way of telling the truth. It may be but when you step on some peoples toes, they have funny ways of saying ouch.

THis much I learned so far. Learn what you can as they can take away your job but they can't take away your education. When you do have the ability to solve problems, you can get a job nealy anyplace - sometimes, you have to provide for yourself and your future.

Few folks have the ambition to create their own business but it can be rewarding - albeit emotionally, but not always financially.

I guess I've come to the realization that I'll never get wealthy working for anybody else. They'll always have their rules which satisfy THEIR objectives. The question is, what about mine???

I did all kinds of neat things for previous employers. In one case, products I designed in the 70's and 80's are STILL being sold and making a profit 20 plus years later. When I checked into a hospital recently, all they wanted were the insurance papers - they could care less what my accomplishments are/were. It's simply business.....

When you have a skill, you have to be prepared to walk. In this case, I'd try to find out WHY does the boss want me to train someone.

Is it because I"m backlogged???
Could I be the bottleneck in growth???
Has the company become TOO dependant on me???
Is he planning to expand???
What are his plans for/with me??? Only the boss knows....

There is a difference between taking advantage of a persons skill as opposed to taking advantage of the person. You'll NEVER get paid what you're truly worth but you'll get a fair wage - buy cheap sell dear is what the employer tries to do...

Don't let yourself be taken advantage. Do protect your interests. Do remain flexible. Figure out what's going on. Talk with your wife. She'll know more than you'll give her credit for.

Talk to friends who are in business for themselves. They'll give you "business insight". I did and its helped me immensely with my self employment. Good luck. The answer is probably staring you in the face....

sometimes teaching becomes a learning expierience in itself

New rules, gentlemen:

Well said.

I have come to the same realization over the past few years. I wish I had come to it earlier.

I once worked for a small company and in the QC lab there was this absolutely gorgeous young blond straight out of college. She systematically when through every training course she could, both inhouse and outside. 6 months after she had started she left for a fortune 500 company and a much larger salary. She knew enough to take her education and whatever she could learn and run with it much earlier than a lot of people.

She was greatly missed (until she was replaced by the next hot blond a few weeks later).

steven

sometimes teaching becomes a learning expierience in itself

Very true also. I have learned more physics and math by teaching it than I feel I ever learned as a student.

Becuase its something super specialized, I'd say do it for a bonus or something, or get a raise out of it. Although for the most part, I'd do it to pass my knowlege on and do it willingly unless this guy is a complete moron;)


Jon

Memo to JFettig;

At your age, you have a life to look forward to living and can afford to be benevolent.

At 2.75 times your age and NOT at an age where people are standing in line to hire me, the picture is VERY different.

From my perspective, you are either inordinately naive or very, very inexperienced in the realities of business... Things might be that way in school but the situation changes DRASTICALLY in the real world. Ask for a raise and in some industries, you might as well tender a letter of resignation. "you want a WHAT????".

I know of many people, including customers who'd love for me to tell them how to do this, that or the other thing for free - things i spent a small fortune to learn and a life time to perfect an understanding of. I don't think so.....

Yet not a SINGLE solitary one of them, including a former employer manager. gave a hoot when I was hospitalized several years ago. Some didn't even get a card. After it was over and was back on my feet, one even had the nerve to say that "You need to understand, we're friends but this is business... we didn't know if we could "depend" on you....." Real eye opening experience....

Maybe you've been treated nicer than I in an industry that is not as cut throat. But, the auto industry and especially the racing industry, are NOT industries where people give stuff away. Those who do are eaten up/spit out like used tires.

Keep another thing in mind: Management does NOT take kindly to ultimatums and managment can NEVER give in to one - even if they are wrong and in dire need. Management, no matter what you think and are told, is a case of power and control.

Some folks call it life - I call it "Reality 101" and the moron the boss wants me to "teach" can go to the same university I did. He (the untrainee) can get off his/her a$$ and learn he skills like I did and it WASN'T spoon fed to me by a well intended guy who got the shaft after he trained his replacement. Besides, some skills aren't taught - they're learned.

As I struggle to make ends meet daily, I don't have time to nurture someone who probably doesn't have the fundamental knowledge to even begin to learn some of the skills associated with a special skilled trade such as (enter an appropriate one of your choice HERE).

Dunno about you guys but that answered all of my questions (chair)

I understand what you mean, I am a youngin. I supose more of what I meant was 'try' to get that, but if all else fails, dont refuse to do it or anything.


I always look at what I am doing and I just gotta slow down and live life while Im still young.

Jon

If I was reading some of these posts from Jon's perspective I might come to the conclusion that there were a bunch of bitter old men posting. From my perspective I only need to substitute the word young. All I can say is Jon you are definitely younger than most of the posters, you are probably a lot less experienced and more naive and idealistic. You cannot do much about getting older (well you can but that is rather terminal) but you can do lots about gaining experience. When life kicks you in the teeth a few times, which it probably will, then you have a choice; you can lower yourself to the level of the kicker and kick somebody else in a position of less power than yourself and develop into another bitter old man, or you can rise above that type of response.

I couldn't have said it better Geof..

Jerry

Joh you could be realistic and see that no company is ever going to care about you. That a fact you are a # and it not what you did for the company it what have you done today for the company and how much did it cost

I agree with Geoff, well put! There is something to be said about the ole' 'I'd rather be safe than sorry' line though. One of my favorite expressions is, "there's a ditch on both sides of a road." My take on life is typically, when you have two very different view points, 9 times out of ten the best option is somewhere in the middle. I think the young guys can learn more from the old guys than vice versa but hopefully the old guys can realize that being set in your ways doesn't neccessarily make that way the right one~

:cheers: Here's to "Bitter old men" and the young inheriting the earth....:D
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Bitter??? Yes, most assuredly. Have good reasons and excuses to be.

Have been asked to train younger engineers - and was replaced by the trainee after a summary dismissal - called a RIF (reduction in force). He didn't create anywhere near the amount of parts I did but he's long gone and my parts are still being sold - 20+ years later. Nice to know the company has made millions off the parts and I got 9 weeks severance.....

Saw "kids" given excuses time after time at another job yet I was called in to fix the mess and make it work. The thanks I got was reassigned to another FUBAR'd mess instead of the glamor job I turned the former FUBAR one into. THey tried to lay the "you should be honored" crap on me when the "kid" got the cream and I got someone else's folly to fix. NO money, no position, just more exploitation. Oh, BTW, the "kids" who I replaced got promotions into managment.

There's any number more but you get the picture.

I always wondered why my dad (a creative hard working construction worker) was so bitter about his job and his situations (overheard while "guy talk" took place at family doings). At this time, I fully understand why - and know how to overcome/deal with them.

Solution: prepare yourself to WALK, no RUN to the next opportunity.

There is a difference between wisdom and knowlege. Schools provide knowledge, the aging process provides wisdom.

It is not that often that one is fortunate enough to be take advantage of the one that is offered and the good sense to recognize when the other is there for the grabs.

Yes, people get bitter. But even a dog quits coming when you call it and beat it when it arrives. In my case, I turned it (the bitterness and disillusionment and KNOWLEDGE) into a business opportunity as well as a chance to offer something special/different in a rather mature and set in its ways industry.

Now I just have to deal with the people who begrude the fact that my job is "so easy". It should be, I spent half a lifetime setting myself up to take advantage of it and the other half learning as many tricks as I could so as to make it that way when/if it happened.

Luck is when opportunity and preparation meet...... I don't make a lot now but a lot of the kids I do work for at the OEM's have clear envy in their eyes when they come to the shop in mid afternoon and we're playing fetch with "shop dog".

Does as good a job as antidepressants and much less problems with the mind numbing side effects. Got to go - the dog wants/has to go out..

[QUOTE=NC Cams]Bitter??? Yes, most assuredly. Have good reasons and excuses to be.

Okay, just stop dumping on people who have a different philosophy of life to you.

Geof: with all due respect, please reread post #1 on this thread.

It might be percieved as "dumping" but the intent was to provide the perspective of a person who's gone thru the same thing more than once. IE: learn from my mistakes and/or my example.

Fortunately, I've gotten past (doesn't seem like it though) the worst of the "feelings" but they still surface when properly stimulated. The nice part is that a number of former colleagues now ask me for advice as they too have started to see the exploitation that takes place in the type of industry I was in.

When you learn that you're best friend got escourted out of the building (while I was on trip, by intent) and lose your mgr in a plane crash only to have mgt have YOU pack up his 30 year career into 3 boxes and dump it, you SEE what managments do and what they think of people.

The thing that young folks lack is perspective. They're young, enthusiastic, intelligent, "sponges" just looking to absorb as much of life's knowledge and skills that they can. To that end, colleges DON"T teach the politics of business - only life can. Some of us had harder classes than others.

I've explained any number of times to professionals in HR depts that I've met outside of professional environment some of the things that I've gone thru. Can't tall you how many, "Don't know how you could handle that's...." I got.

Sorry for apparently dumping. However, there is a clear lacking of documentation in business relations courses on how to deal with a manager who is bound and determined to have you dismissed and/or who wants to exploit you for HIS career advancement goals.

My advice/ramblings/whatever are offered for their worth and can be followed or ignored as the reader sees fit. However it did happen and surely will happen again. If you're lucky/prepared, it won't happen to you....

Interesting enough. I saw an interview of a young woman author who had just graduated college this year. Her first book cronicles what she calls the "me generation", making the case that her generation, the group just graduating, now is the most self centered and self serving group in the history of the country (America). I can tell you, being a part time college professor and having to dumb down the curriculum so that they could pass, they ain't the brightest generation either.

And yet they call us bitter old men...

I wonder how bitter they will end up, once reality sets in, starting off with an already bad attitude.

I see some companies in my field advertizing themselves as having a young and vibrant management team. I usually interpret that as actually saying ...we have a management team who haven't made the mistakes and gained the life experiences to actually know what their doing. No wonder 9 out of 10 startups in this country fail in the first 5 years.

I was once interviewed by a young lady chemist who must have been about the same age as my stepdaughter. I would ask her a few simple questions about what her lab was doing and almost every single answer was wrong (I had been running the same type of lab doing the same thing for another, much smaller company, for about 5 years at that time). Thankfully, when I went up the food chain and interviewed with her boss, the dept manager, he actually knew what he was doing (but then he was my age).

When I was young I was very interested in comparitive religion. One distinction all the ancient mysitcal texts make is the difference between knowlege and wisdom. Knowlege you can get from reading a few books. Wisdom you gain from actually running the machine and screwing up a few parts before you actually have a feel for what's going on and learn the tricks necessary to make the part correctly.

Now, after 30 years of often having to fix my own lab equipment (sometimes stripping things down to the board level and looking at test points), I am looking to go into field service. Thank god there is an abundance of young kids with bad attitudes in the workplace ready and willing to f**k up their machines so I have a plentifull supply of work for the future :)

I have to say that it really doesn't seem to me to be generational.

In the two decades I was operating my business I had at least a couple dozen people who wanted me to apprentice them, some of them as much as 20 years older than myself. Out of all that number, not a single one was willing to do the work to prepare for training. It got to the point that I kept a book list made up to hand out... never did have anyone come back and want to discuss any of the materials from any of the books.

Young, old, in the middle, made not a lick of diff. What all seemed to want was to be indoctrinated with a list of point and click answers to all possible questions/problems. The very idea of having to learn how to solve problems for themselves seemed to terrify all comers.

The biggest reason I started posting here and annoying you people was that there is a high percentage of people here who *do* want to know, learn and apply. Very refreshing change of pace from the "gimme the answer" crowd :)


Tiger

I think that even though you groan about teaching you still hold hope for us greenhorns because you are a member of this forum, I know I have gained alot of knowledge from most of you guys and am very greatful for it and I hope to pick your brains for alot more. I would love to apprentice with a machine shop but its a who you know type of thing around here and I really don't know anybody.

The biggest reason I started posting here and annoying you people was that there is a high percentage of people here who *do* want to know, learn and apply. Very refreshing change of pace from the "gimme the answer" crowd

Well said. I have found the same thing here, but this forum seems to be the exception rather than the rule in the world at large.

Would you post your list of reading materials please? Can't say I'll read them all. Only the ones that apply to my limited applications. But as mike will tell you I am noted out here for asking plenty of dumb questions.

[QUOTE=sdantonio]......And yet they call us bitter old men...

Actually they, if by "they" you mean the younger people posting, didn't; I did and I certainly don't qualify as a younger people. I also don't see younger posters demonstrating a particularly bad attitude so I think you are getting yourself twisted around. In addition blaming the products of an inadequate education system for the need to " dumb down the curriculum so that they could pass" is not fair. They did not set the standards they were expected to meet throughout their education; your generation did. To quote from another post; "The thing that young folks lack is perspective. They're young, enthusiastic, intelligent, "sponges" just looking to absorb as much of life's knowledge and skills that they can." This is correct and if all the sponge absorbs is bitterness interspersed with ridicule of this type; "you are either inordinately naive or very, very inexperienced in the realities of business" you should not be surprised if they turn into the "me generation".

OK... who here can program, set up, run, and repair a 15-axis swiss machine?

I can, but my GOD I am tired of being the only one in my shop who can, and does, for 12-14 hours a day!

I will gladly train someone to do the things I can do, providing that it results in: A) a benefit for the company, and B) a more 'normal' work week for me!

On the other side of the coin...
I am a software programmer in my 'spare' time. I spent most of a year coding a CNC program editor/plotter/DNC package. It involved my having to jump through some hoops to figure out the best way to do something (optimize the path that connects 200+ holes, for example). Now-- I don't mind sharing some programming tips and tricks, but I'm not about to turn over entire sections of code (RS-232 port analyzer, for example) to someone who wants to learn to program.

Just my two cents.

I’m 46 years old, been machining for 25 years was trained by the old school. I live 20 miles south of Boston. Have seen the fore river shipyard close and was part of a group that received Federal job training in the hopes of reopening it. No luck. I have seen company after company close shop and move out of Massachusetts Bitter at my age, you bet I am

Geof: A sponge will only absorb what it is imersed in. If you ONLY imerse it in water, that's all it will pick up. I you imerse it in water and detergent, it will clean and sanitize things. THus, you have to imerse it in MANY liquids (situations) to determine its optimum useage potential.

I was the "first class" graduate of the tech program that was offered at the college in my home town. Nearly 15 years after graduation, I got a call from a former professor who was now Dean of the school. He asked me the usual questions (job, job history, etc) and then the interesting question: "What didn't we teach in school that we should be teaching???"

Several simple replies:

Common sense

Industrial problem identificaiton/solving

and, most of all

OFFICE POLITICS 101.

After explaining some of the "episodes" that I went thru, he admitted that the OP101 course would probably be a great course to teach but he didn't have a clue how to create a ciriculum nor could he imaging where he could go to locate one.

So much for academia.... Some things can't be taught but have to be learned which is why some of us got dumped on so much/so badly over the years. It doesn't pay to be TOO creative, TOO outspoken and TOO independant.... But it doesn't hurt to keep your eyes open for free advice.

How many of the people in this forum would have thought that companies like Bridgeport, U.S. Repeating Arm, Morse Cutting Tool would ever close?

I think that even though you groan about teaching you still hold hope for us greenhorns

If that was addressed to me, teaching was one of the most enjoyable and rewarding things I even did (8 years college, 2 years high school). It's not so much hope for the future, I gave up on that :). It's those brief moments when you get to the end of a sentence and pause and you see that one person in the class who actually has this twinkle of understanding in his/her eyes.

I remember one of the proudest moments in my life. A few years back (my last year teaching I had gotten out of teaching night school in college and was trying highschool full time) I was allowed to give out some special awards to the most promising math and science students (it was a little catholic school). I had one girl who maintained a 96 average in my class (D student in all her other classes). Notes going home from all her other teachers saying she was a problem student. I sent a note home telling her mother that the only time I had to talk to her was when she was turning around to explane to her little buddies how to do the problems. Without her, many of her friends wouldn't have passed that year. And that I saw her do problems in her head that some of those around her couldn't do on a calculator. And that I have had long talks with her, mostly in detention, about trying to get her passionately interested in something. Anything would do, because if I could do that in any subject, then the rest would follow.

She got the award in math. Showed up and took my final (and did well) then got expelled the next day for general behavior.

A few days later when I was turning in my grades there was a note for me from her. Thanking me for being the first person to believe in her. I still have that note on my wall at home (in pink pen with the miss-spellings).

Or there was the time when one of the students, without thinking, blurted out in the middle of class, "damn it Mr. D, I gave up drugs for you because I realized I couldn't party and pass your class at the same time..."

I had the reputation for being brutal, but I also had the highest pass/fail ratio in the school. And I had people come to me and point to the course catalog and say "... is this your section... your the physicist, right...the section you teach is the one I want to be in next year..."

So, yeah. I still hold hope. But I'll also reserve the right to say "show me" too.

BTW, if you weren't addressing me then ignore this post :)

Wow, have we strayed off course from Ian's original post.

Actually I was speaking in general but the story was inspiring I hope others take it to heart, I don't think some of the people in here realize the impact they can have on peoples lives. I feel like I have been in college since I found this sit for me purchasing the reading material is hard due to finances but like a sponge I suck up everything I read in here.

Probably none, Lakeside, had the question been answered years ago BEFORE bad business decisions/planning choices were made which sealed their fates.

In BPT's case, there were people there who KNEW machine tools and/or how to make/design state of the art NEW equipment needed for the NEW manufacturing technologies that were emerging.

Sadly, I know first hand where MANAGEMENT made short sighted decisions which cured symptoms as opposed to the root cause of their problems.

Example: put LABOR into assembly as opposed to buying better quality parts. When it takes 8-12 hours to set up a machine, hunt and peck with selective fits as opposed to making 1 good part and assembling it with 1 (not a matrix of 12 selective fit bearings), you've DESTROYED any resemblance you may have had with respect to mass producing something. Yes, they saved money with the bearings and pi$$ed it and more away trying to make it work. Put good ball screw bearings into mine and the machine was running RIGHT in less than an hour, first shot. The OEM's never could/did repeat and they were like new....

BPT stayed tried and tru with thier classic vertical mill. HOwever, the imported stuff eventually caught and matched and in some cases surpassed the quality if it. For what you used to pay for a BPT mill, you can now buy a HAAS tool room CNC mill for. You can only milk so much out of a product. Sad case of management NOT keeping up with the progress of their competition and needs of their customers.

Companies that stay in business and prosper provide the product and services that their customers want. Sadly, however, management's quest for lower cost suppliers has resulted in jobs and businesses being stripped of value and/or viability via their exploitation of cheap foreign labor markets. You can only ship dollars off shore so long before you run out of $$$'s. I dunno when business and politicians are going to realize that....

Want to stop illegal immigration??? Put up a plant south of the border and pay domestic labor rates.

Once you set up and stimulate a viable economy THERE, there will no longer be a need for $5/day laborer south of the border to want to come to USA illegally to make $5/hour. Simple economics which politicians can't understand and some businessmen WILL always try to exploit...

FInally, the people who used to run the companies listed in post 61 in their heydays, were in business to provide a good and/or service. At their swan song, I'd bet management was there purely to make money... big difference and a critical one to their success...

Note to Mr. D form antonio:

20-30 years from now, some of those same kids will still be inspired by you. My (probably long departed by now) algebra teacher in high school had that effect on me. To this day, some of Mr. Pickens gems of wisdom still affect my thought processes with regard to problem solving.

You've had a rare opprotunity that few of us have shared. My moment like that came when we had a training session for the parts company I worked for so many years ago. I taught a course on camshafts at the time. It was rough and EVERYBODY knew I wasn't messing around.

One of my most proud moments was in learning that NOBODY got any of the test questions wrong regarding camshafts. And it was multiple guess and every wrong answer was there too. That episode still makes me feel pretty good....

Another was a year after another trainins session at a bearing company. Why a year??? At a sales meeting a sales guy came up and thanked me for being such an SOB in demanding perfection in my class. I asked why?? The reply, "It turned out that making you happy with an answer/results was comparatively easy - the customers are MUCH worse!!!"

If you prepare for the worst, life is always better than you hope/plan for....

I feel like I have been in college since I found this sit

I know exactly what you mean. And it's those embarasing moments here that you learn the most from. This will show you that, even with all the college education, I'm still far from being a machinist (or engineer).

I needed a collet adapter to allow me to use 3/8 shank end mills in my router (equipped with a 1/2in collet). Simple enough, I have a similar split collet adapter to go from 1/8 shank to 1/4 shank. I sat up for half an hour with Rhino designing what I need and making a nice 3D rendering and sent it out to a machinist friend of mine for his final approval and suggestions for metals to make it from.

The email I got back was: You don't need to build it. They call them flanged bushings. Just buy it for $4 then come in and we'll cut it here.

for me purchasing the reading material is hard due to finances

Thank god the companies I work for all seem to leave me alone when they see me at the photocopier. I was thanked and told one year that I had single handedly justified the interlibrary loan buget and that because of me they will have even more money to work with next year.

The email I got back was: You don't need to build it. They call them flanged bushings. Just buy it for $4 then come in and we'll cut it here.

that one thing about being a machinist you are often ask to make thing that can be bought for a few dollars but no one seems to be able to find them

memo to SDANTONIO:

Consider yourself fortunate. My use of the copy machine and company network printer on weekends, on my own time, was one of the "reasons" my boss put me on probation and then used as justificaion for dismissal from my last (perhaps literally) job - and I was even using MY REAMS OF PAPER.

Yet he did his term paper over and over, printed his kids sports stuff and even resume on same "resources". Shows to go you that some people will do ANYTHING to eliminate some people and/or to cover their tracks.

He might be rid of me but he won't ever get over/change the fact that he's a semi-bald, coke bottle glassed, book learned, bigoted, pencil pouch, scrawny framed, geekoid engineer who didn't have the sense and/or balls to improvise when times called for it. Sure was good a politics though. Must of learned it from the place he got let go from previously...That has to tell you something....

Some things even education can't change.

A lot of these owners are living in their own kingdom. At a certain moment they find paying their employees a nuisance, because they should be pleased to serve their king. Every now and then I have to do business with family owned business, like brothers, fathers and the wives doing the bookkeeping. They have a kingdom. So, I forewarn them: "I pledged myself to avoid doing business with family businesses, so would you please behave yourselves with regard to paying terms etc.". We have a laugh then, but you still have to warn them every now and then. They stand hand in hand with their back to the world, ignoring it. They don't know the law, or ignore it and I pity their personnel, because they are commodities.

Carel

Here is another point I haven’t seen mentioned.

Rare skills that are almost Art-like in quality that are in demand often suffer from automation. Because the talent is so hard to find/train (or in this case, no one wants to share) they figure a way to automate or just plain eliminate the job.

And don't make the mistake of saying "there is no way of doing that for my job". That’s why they call all the old-timers that make everything seam like magic "dinosaurs".

I have had employee’s take all the training and get better/higher paying jobs elsewhere. More power to them, at the time I couldn’t pay them what they could be worth.

Because of my ego I will share all of my knowledge when training, because I personally think I am near the top, when it comes to skills and learning ability. :D

So, Bring in on, beef! ;)

You want beef, you'll get beef. I have discussions every now and then with selfcalled toolmakers, diemakers etc. They all are bragging about the difficulty of their jobs and how they have to find solutions for this and that huge one-off problem. Then I see that are talking about tolerances that are 1/10th of what I normally work with. I see also the tunnelvision and a lacking off the overview. Normally all these huge problems, which offcourse are solved in an heroic, unique way, are triggered by lack off design and planning. This method is offcourse very good for the inflating off the ego's of the persons involved, but it doesn't help time and cost control. If you want replacable parts, repairable machines you don't want Art and Heroism, you want cool calculations.

Carel

Normally all these huge problems, which offcourse are solved in an heroic, unique way, are triggered by lack off design and planning

Reminded me of one of my pet peeves: "ergonomics". Every time I see the word it automatically translates as "pat me on the back for finally doing my design job correctly" ;)

A big part of the problem (imo) is that far too many of those making design and production decisions know only the current state of the art and have no education in or understanding of the background frmework that cutting edge rests on.

I'll never forget one aerospace engineer customer of mine whining about having to wait weeks for a piece of equipment to accurately square a big fixture. He had a cow when I happened to mention the 3 disc method of referencing a large square... degrees out the yang and he had never heard of it.


Tiger

You lost me Carel... I have a good friend from the Netherlands but once in awhile I get confused talking to her... What do you do?? What kind of tolerances do you hold?? (Before you post, what's that in inches, lol) I'm just curious is all, I like knowing a little history about the posters, so I can understand where they're coming from...

Let's all be real here, it is easier to hold a tolerance of +-.00005 on a lapping machine than it is to hold +-.050 on a jig saw... Without giving us your application, tolerances mean nothing, the same ego inflating bit could (respectfully) be said about you because the only reason to mention it in your post was to show you're better than them and their accomplishment was very menial...

Another example would be, they're holding tolerance x.xxx in a six inch deep pocket in a mill, well that is a hundred times harder than holding the x.xxxx tolerance on a surface grinder... Broad generalizations only make a person sound intelligent to the uneducated or the unexperienced as a rule... (I think once you provide examples, it will clear this up.)

It may be that we are comparing apples to oranges in the tolerance department but griping about it in the EXACT same manner they do, ego inflating useless heroism!! (To use some of your words.) Again, I very respectfully believe that when you explain your background better it will bring a lot of clarity to your viewpoint but I do have problems with broad generalizations... (BUT ONLY because I'm in a family business with toolmakers, lol!!) :rolleyes:

I can understand where you are coming from to a degree but many times building molds, it has NOTHING to do with poor planning as you just mentioned as much as it has to do with a repair, engineering change, tool broke or the code was bad, heat treat warped it an unforeseen direction, bad part design from the engineer or just a simple: "It didn't do what I thought it should."

Mistakes are unavoidable, both human and mechanical and I don't enjoy being around perfect people where nothing goes wrong... I do however enjoy being around problem solvers when it does hit the fan though... BTW, I'm interested in what you were saying but I think I missed part of what you meant...

Also, I was a little confused about the family businesses... You do or don't like working with them?? I think you were being sarcastic but I was a little confused...

I'm not attacking your post, just asking if you could clarify a few things...

One time I worked at a factory on a frame outsourced by ESTEC(tuesday = spaceday).This frame had to rotate 180 deg. I was halfway and saw it was'nt going to work the way they planned it. I called my boss, he did not see it, he called his boss, he did not see it. I told them I was right and please call the engineer. He came and saw the thing for real the first time and saw it would'nt work. He did new drawings, I did the restore and that's it. It's called responsibility and cooperation.

Carel

This frame had to rotate 180 deg. I was halfway and saw it was'nt going to work the way they planned it. I called my boss, he did not see it, he called his boss, he did not see it. I told them I was right and please call the engineer. He came and saw the thing for real the first time and saw it would'nt work. He did new drawings, I did the restore and that's it.


Carel,

I wonder if your self described 'toolmaker' buddies ever run into the same situation? In other words, they had to fix a problem that was not a direct result of them doing or planning something wrong, they just have to resolve the issue...

ROFLMAO, did you not just gripe about them bragging about something "heroic" they did, yet two posts later, I read the word "I" five times including, "I told them I was right"?? (and now the whole world I might add!! :rolleyes: ) I find this amusing myself... I heard once, "People like yourself, get on your nerves the quickest." :boxing: Might want to think that over bro~

AMCjeepCJ: You misread the I am better than you attitude. I make parts according to the ISO system, which justs means that it is a rule for everyone. If my part is not according to this, it's scrap, period. I will not go bragging how many problems I had making it and that they have to take it the way it is. Scrap=Scrap. If you are bragging how many shortcuts you took, how you cheated, how much your product resembles the product and if they tweak it here and there for a few hours it will certainly work, the product is just not good enough. That's all, that's what I call ironically Engineering Heroism.

For family business: I don't like to cooperate with them. Example: You agree with them: in 6 month's we will be at that point and in the meantime they do a 180. They will present your product as theirs, and you have to solve the problems caused by that attitude. You need tape recorders, lawyers, just to stay alive. If you do research, they are suddenly screaming at you, while you're explaining the steps necessary for the product, that was the worst. They will slap the brother on his shoulder for your design, the start of denial of design. It does'nt mean they are all like that, I just see the average.

About the things I do: you don't want to get bored.

Carel

Okie dokie, fair enough... :) Still kind of curious about the specifics in comparing your tolerances... I'm interested the applications you were referring to... To be fair, were / are you a toolmaker?? There are times when the print calls for a .005" radius in a corner and you HAVE to fake it in on the electrodes by hand or else not make any money on that job... To back up your stance though, you're absolutely right about the rampant ego's in the shops or anywhere for that matter...

BTW, I read many of your other posts and honestly I really like you, you're a straight shooter, opinionated, (good thing,) and definitely honest...

I'm assuming in your posts however, you mean 'small' family owned shops, correct?? I don't know of one single mold / machine shop in my county that's not 'family' owned and we're in the heart of the auto industry... The places we do work for like summit polymers are the people we hate, net 30 my ass, try 120-360+ and that's AFTER 40 phone calls and faxes... I still however think it's difficult to make broad generalizations!!

Here is a goofy example: I love motocross and I routinely see in the paper, "CR 250, blah blah blah, NEVER RACED." People assume this means it's better than one that was... When we raced the oil in the clutch is changed every 2-4 moto's, we let it idle until it's up to temp, everything is constantly lubed, cleaned, the engine is constantly rebuilt, etc. Compare that to our play bikes, shoot, we routinely sink em' in the swamp, wind em' up without proper warming, (cold seize anyone?!) and just beat the piss out of them including ghost riding jumps, etc. My point being this: I'd rather have a legitimate ametuer racer sell me a bike than someone who might not know the first thing about jetting, lubing, general maintenance, (you name it)...

Now lets tie this to your broad generalizations (BG)... The BG about bikes is, not raced = better bike... Not always true... The BG about family owned companies is (read your posts)... Not always true... I don't like making sweeping statements about anything because it slants our views on anyone associated with that group even if it's innocently done...

Case in point, Christians, Muslims, Hindu's, etc... Blacks, whites, Oriental, Arab, etc... Yeah that's taking it to extremes BUT anytime you have a mindset of grouping people, you need to really check how far you take it because I've NEVER yet seen it work...

I'll shuttup now...

PS
To get back to the topic, my thoughts at this point are 'yes' I would pass on CERTAIN knowledge for free IF I respected and trusted that person...

About the things I do: you don't want to get bored.

Carel


LOL, we're machinists dude, bore away!!

WOW! I hope I didn't start this!

where did all of this come from?

Just let it go guys! Have a beer call it a day! :D

Have a beer call it a day! :D
NOW WERE TALKING WHAT KIND ?

uh oh, another brewski thread ;) I remember what happened with the last one...


Tiger

miljnor started that too he's a bad bad man

:D

guilty as charged!

must say, its better than aurguing over some unsolvable point! :cheers:

:
must say, its better than aurguing over some unsolvable point! :cheers:

I like to drink a lot of beer and then aurgure over some mindless point

after drinking I would think it would be :"Mindlessly aurguing over some point" :D

My partner worked in a production cam shop and everything was a chore or "you can't do it" when it came to working in 0.0001" increments.

His son took an interest in the cam grinder and I put him to work after rigorous training sessions (including machine cleaning - major yuck in cleaning a grinder).

He knew NOTHING about the parts or the process or the machine. Since he didn't know better, hitting 0.0001 was something he did cause THAT"s what I expected and taught him to do and was expected. As he didn't know that if it was with 0.001 it would be fine, he had no choice but to compy.

He simply thought and was taught that if he didn't hit the number EXACTLY, he fubar'd the part and THAT would tick me off - had to be ticked off even when satisfied to fulfill his expectations.

The kid is now a true artisan with respect to grinding cams and he DOESN'T make mistakes. His dad STILL has the production mentality but the kid is truly awesome. His/our cams have literally helped win millions of $$$'s in a very prestigous race series.

The point being, if you teach your employees to generate simply adequate parts, they won't disappoint you. If you teach them that you expect JEWELRY from them, you'd be amazed at the things they'll do to make it even nicer than it needs to be.

I contest that human nature inately likes "shiney metal, precisely made pieces" - we tend to accept/tolerate anything less only when we come to the conclusion that we can't get the good, no, great stuff. It doesn't cost any more to hit 0.0001 tolerance than 0.001. The trick is that since we can hit the small numbers, we tend to be a bit more careful and we DON'T make scrap. NOT making scrap is crucial when you're talking onesy/twosy custom made billet cams carved out of tool steel....

Expect and demand more from your help - the ones you want to keep (whatever it takes) won't disappoint you with their performance achievements. Treat them fair and treat them well and DON'T take them for granted.

Note to Carel: I do the calcs, my help provides the art, accuracy and (with training) the craftsmanship needed to make our product what it is to/for our clients. Truly a team effort and excuses are NOT something one uses more than once for any FUBAR.

ImanCarrot
I would like to know what have you decided?

I used to answer questions thinking that I was helping. Now I qualify the person asking the question first. Anybody can ask a question, but they aren't always willing to do the work required to understand. I'll go out of my way for someone sincere, and show the door to lookers.

I also learned that some will value the information and be willing to pay, which is a lot more fun than demonstrating a process for free.
I can sell my knowledge for $1200 a day to a small group, and that's a lot better than talking to a blank stare.

I used to answer questions thinking that I was helping. Now I qualify the person asking the question first. Anybody can ask a question, but they aren't always willing to do the work required to understand. I'll go out of my way for someone sincere, and show the door to lookers.

Very well said. It gets tiresome after a while dealing with the "you provide it all for me so I don't have to think or work" attitude.

Whole 'nuther ballgame though when the person is actually looking for an assist, not an adoption ;)


Tiger

Hi Guys
Would I pass on my knowledge for free? I have and I would again. To the right type of people. There is no point is teaching someone who is unwilling or incapable of learning what you are trying to impart. My philosophy is that I was, am and will always be a sponge for knowledge so what I teach you today isn't what I'll need for tomorrow. I'm teaching it to you so I don't have to do it so I can do things that advance my career and my paypacket. If you don't pass on your knowledge to the right people you are holding yourself back. This is absolutely the case with Iain as is demonstrated by his description of his workload. If I was his boss I would also be looking to train someone to do what he does. What if he gets sick or they get even more work. Given the circumstances I believe his boss is acting reactively instead of proactively (they should have seen this coming) but still acting in the right way. Ian, is there room for you to move within your company in an upwards direction? Is there a plan that you and your boss can formulate to grow the diamond machining aspect of the business that you can manage. Have you considered not being the guy pushing the buttons but rather the guy who is developing the next innovative way of diamond machining. You can see this in a positive light if you look at it with a positive attitude. Iain, I hope your boss is a good guy and does the right thing by you. Good luck.

I was told as a young engineer by a simple but obviously enlightened man, "I've been working here for 20 years. I don't have 20 years of experience I just keep doing the first year over and over again". Food for thought.

Cheers
derekj308

This discussion reminds me of the movie..."Pay It Forward"

Memo to Derek: Theoretically and in a perfect world, you're absolutely right. However, in a real world, it don't work that way.

Did that for a new hire. SHE knew nothing about the technology but was intelligent and could be taught. Suffice it to say that women have more things to offer in some respects than a man to some corporate executives. She passed me by on the pecking order and became my boss.

She had a number of people terminated who helped her get to the top along the way. But, because we knew the "real story" behind her success/expertise, we didn't/couldn't be allowed to remain around.

When she ran out of ideas that she "developed" (actually other peoples ideas she cataloged and exploited - none she developed on her own), she moved on to another company.

This was all ultimately verified by her colleagues several years later but the damage was already done to any number of careers and lives as well as the division....

I"ve since learned that some people merely want to exploit your knowledge and skill. Some others want to outright steal it. Fewer yet want to buy it and some are happy to work with you to have you teach it to them whatever it takes - they simply want to learn.

At this time in my life, business is business so I sell my skills and price it accordingly. I've shared some with employees but only what they show they WANT to learn or need to learn when they want to do more. And when they do, I pay them more as well.

I'm hoping that someone will come along who wants to carry on my business someday. I'll sell it to them at a fair price and provide support as long as I can at that point - hopefully they'll provide a stipend for my "consultation" but that reamins to be seen.

Until and unless that happens, I'm too jaded from the previous times in my career when ill trained, exploitive people clearly and admittedly ripped me off.

Marketable skills can't be "passed on". They have to be learned, absorbed, cherished, nurtured and practiced. Exploitive people at best may learn the words but they never seem to know the musig. Some people have a job, some have a passion, some have a career and sadly, some simply make a paycheck....

Those with a passion will learn the trade, by hook or crook, no matter what. Why? because they WANT IT. Those who simply want to make a paycheck will do what they can to gain enough to get by with just enough skill in the easiest way possible.

Tthe way to tell the difference is how they ask a question: as in the difference between "what's the answer?" versus "how do I figure it out?" Should be obvious which appproach I'd be happy to provide the answer to.....

NC Cams !
VERY well said!!!

Apology to Derekj308;

I am on the west coast of North America so I get up later than a lot of people. I would have warned you what to expect after reading your post. I assume you have read the whole thread? Some of it is a bit repetitive.

Hi Guys
I have a description of the woman you speak of NC_CAMS. She is commonly known as a sociopath/psychopath. If you are interested read

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

I have read all of the posts (not to say I have absorbed all of the content) and came to the conclusion that I needed to answer Iain and not to fuel the tangents that have arisen from the discussion. Its tempting but it doesn't help Iain and others like him who are in or will have this situation placed before them. I don't remember reading Iain describing his boss in a negative way yet many of the posts I have read keep referring to negative experiences. Just because 'you' (and I'm not reffering to anyone in particular, I just mean generally) got burnt it doesn't necessarily mean that Iain will also.

I get the feeling Iain stopped reading this thread since he hasn't posted for a while.

Are you still there Iain?

Cheers
derekj308

Thanks Derek - wish I'd known that when the whole deal was going down at the time. It explains a LOT, especially when you know as much as I do about her and her past... That is definitely what was going on....

Interestlingly, when the various victims were in the process of going their separate ways and having a good bye beer to hash over bygones after the dust settled, several admitted that she could have been stopped had they let me take some action I could have uniquely taken which would have had her summarily dismissed - even her executive mentor couldn't have saved her from THAT.

Sadly, they were afraid of her special executive "connection" (if you know what I mean) and talked me out of taking the step. Would have probably worked but nothing is a lead pipe cinch when it comes to corporate politics - especially something that would have turned THAT ugly. Interestingly, even professionals who specialize in personnel law and employment issues didn't have a strategy to deal with the problem when I outlined it to them... It was THAT bizarre....

Fortunately, our paths haven't crossed since. Don't know what I'd do if it did but it wouldn't be pretty - even after 25 years....

Anyway, I hope Iain has gotten some ideas from the post. Good bad and indifferent, there are only a few ways to deal with it and none of them will be stress free and each has down and/or up sides. Sadly, my feelings are on the negative side for clearly understandable reasons.

Hopefully, he's got enough ideas by now to formulate an appropriate strategy for his situation. I hope he fomulates and chooses a good one....

Speaking from an employer point of view I teach what I want known not everything
I know.
A good way to make your skills shine even more.

Face it corporations still expect the loyalty to be given to them as your lucky to even have a job so why shouldn't you be like a old dog. Yet when the loyalty is sought in return by the employee there is none to be found.

This is why most people with any intelligence, ability to learn and education only stay places a few years then move on before they are moved on by management. Long term employment these days means 5 years.

I for example have a degree in Industrial Engineering plus extensive knowledge of computer networking and hardware and I work for big pharma. They hired me because I have sets of skills that can be applied to all areas of our production facility. The problem arises with the fact that it would appear I am the only one here with those capabilities. Thus who do you think they expect to do projects and technology based improvements, me thats who! Then there are the people that have been here 25 years and if you change anything on them they are lost because in 25 years all they learned or desired to learn was just the task they were asked to do, stray from that and its deer in the headlights.

I have been here 3 years and will stomach a few more to get my magic 5 years and than I will likely blow this joint even thought the pay and benefits are good the work situation is out of control and expectations are beyond reasonable. So in managements over active imagination that I can do 5 different technical things at the same time as doing the most menial of tasks they are in fact making me look at options for other employment.

Then when I leave the 25 year people will still just be doing what they have done and not a thing more to advance the facility. Meanwile these people have 5 weeks vacation a year at which time I have to do my jobs and theirs all the while being expected to implement new technology and then teach it to the techs to operate. yet guess what happens when I go on vacation? No one does my job!!

You can teach a monkey to do just about anything so long as you don't deviate from what you ask them to do.

So when I leave those long timers will still be here because they know nothing else, don't care to learn and obviously never much did care to learn so they are the sheeple that go bahhhhh and nod in agreement with management.

I told the HR lady just this week that they hire engineers and chemists for their ability to problem solve and analyze issues but when you analyze what they tell you versus what they do and bring up that your being screwed they suddenly no longer like your ability to think or analyze they just want you to line up with the rest of the sheeple and go bahhhhhhhhhhhh. I told her straight up if management is always telling us one thing and preaching it as gospel then turning around and not coming through or practicing what they preach then they should not be surprised when they are called on it by the very people they hired to think! Needless to say the 25 year people never seem to have any problems with anything.

Sometimes I think being a retard that laughs and smiles at everything without a care in the world. Doesn't seem like a bad gig.. I like tator tots uh huh!!!!

Memo to Bowman: the HR lady was NOT your friend nor is she to be trusted. She is/was hired to protect the corp. interest against wrongful dismissal issues and other legal crap, NOT YOUR INTERESTS in ANY WAY SHAPE NOR FORM. They DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU, no matter what they say.

I too had a conversation like that. Each and every verb, noun and adjective were documented and used to "document" things for what ultimately became my exit interview - all twisted and reconstrewed but documented "properly" none the less. THe broad from HR wouldn't even look at me during the "exit interview" as she knew what went on and what she did to grease the slides.

Make sure you have ALL your "tools" documented and duplicated in a safe place. You won't have or be given time to pack up your belongings when the corp decides to expedite your ability to seek gainful employment elsewheres.

In such situations, you may be expected to document stuff but I wouldn't - be prepared to be strong armed under "pain" of loss of any severence - this can be STRONG coercement so be ready. If your replacement is as sharp as mgt thinks he/she will be, he/she can SURELY figure out what you did.no???? if they can't, why should you care??? They won't ask you for your help so pack up and move on and don't look back.

Watch your back Bowman, you may have already pulled the pin on your grenade. You can bet that ALL your computer access via the corporate network is being watched with a spyware program. Happened to me.

Moreover, do NOT use the corp e-mail for personal ANYTHING - not even to tell the wife you''ll be late for dinner and do NOT use corp netork printer for same reasons (I was confronted with nearly 2 reams of paper that they printed off until they finally found a page I couldn't explain to their satisfaction 1/2 way into second ream.)

They are also probably logging ALL your phone use. Be REAL careful with who and what you CC in e-mails. CYA, big time as once HR is aware of employee "disgruntlement", they start watching what's going on with clear sights on "eliminating trouble makers" and to protect the corp. They care less about you at this point.

Don't get caught with corp stuff on your person or at home or on on floppy or on your computer or anywhere it shoudn't be - more "evidence". Trust me, you are now being watched and this is not black hellicopter, paranoia crap. This is how they do things anymore and it is all legal.

By the way, if you have a lease car that is company related and you paid for any or all of it thru payroll deduction, and they want the car IMMEDIATELy if you're let go, demand CASH refund on the spot _ under the circumstances, their "check" is not "trustable anymore" for what should be obvious reasons (cash is legal tender for public and private debts - read the currency and use the precendence). Otherwise, tell them you're driving it until the end of the month you paid for - the car is yours cuz you pre-paid the lease.

In my case, they expected me to IMMEDIATELY give them back the car and LITERALLY walk home, during depth of winter ON THE SPOT with no cash refund nor even a check. I kept the car until the end of month and they ate their words trying to get it back.

Like a boss said to me when he overheard me explaining something a former employer thought I knew NOTHING about, "NC, you know MUCH too much....". The power and control people tend to eliminate people they can't maintain power and control over. Smart, well educated and creative people tend to be real hard to gain absolute control over.... Lemmings and sheep are compatively easy and that's what some corp suits want/need.

You have been warned....take heed. I just went thru that power, control, HR "we understand", "exit interview" crap at my last corp job which is why I'm paddling my own boat currently.... I wish I knew where they grow people like that - they are ruining the creative spirit that built this country and our phenomendal technical advancements....

NC Cams I know what you mean and I totally have seen all that before myself. Thing is they know I don't care and the only exit interview they will get from me is one they surely won't want to last long.

They grow people like that in Law School and than they tell the HR smucks what to say its so obvious in their wording in every email they send. All form letters with catch phrases. They can can me they can watch me they can do whatever they want and I can bring all the documentation I have as to what they have been doing to the regulators and get there arse examined with a fine tooth comb.

As for the internet and email I would say the same as you I imagine they watch and log etc since some lawwyer told them too already. As for access I have Admin access and if they think a quick out the door means a quick I am out of there network they are woefully mistaken. But than thats what I mean they don't know shat about shat unless its in a book they got from someone at corp telling them what to say. I kiss no ones arse and these yes pansies can live their life knowing the only thing getting them ahead is their head up their bosses arse or their ability to get ahead by giving it.

United Corporation of Americo pass the tacos please!

Bowman: they can and if peeved enough can and will crush you with legal challenges, especially if they try the "trade secret" attack plan.

In such cases, you have to prove your innocence as it "when did you stop beating your wife???" Reply "I don't beat my wife." "good, when did you quit???".

If you have "whistle blower" coverage, perhaps things are different. In my case, not even "handicap discrimination" meant anything.

Such situations never remain un-ugly....

NC- you are so right and it is a shame we have to deal with these things. Imagine if we could put all the issues like this away and get stuff done wow what a concept that would be.

Its not like I think I am indispensible because in a corporation everyone is. I always like to think of it as motivation to get my own thing going and do more fishing and hunting. Life is to short to have these anxieties over entities and people that in the end are nothing more than roids during the week I suffer from.

This is my last post to this thread since I have been trying to not worry about the crap I have no control over and focus on the things I do. Such as building a CNC Router :) That is what I love about this site and the internet in general is that the true people who love this are the only ones really here and people of our mindset are often eager to impart knowledge and to gain it when ever and where ever we can simply because it fascinates us. As others have said and I know this to be true that to teach is to better understand the topic yourself especially if its applied hands on not just theory crap. So to get to the original poll question yeah I help when I can if I can unless the person is a flat out jerk then their on their own.

The other thing I enjoy about this site is seeing people completely new to machining, linear motion and CAD CAM in general so intrigued that they want to give it a go people usually enjoy helping these others and thats what this site is all about from the lowly lil (but cool as hell) lego cnc router to the Biggest Mills and Lathes we are one anothers reference resource thats why we are here. Plus lets face it you don't find our types all over the place so for a lot of us this is the extent of our interaction with people when it comes to machining etc because other people have no interest or its totally over their heads.

The truly smart people know that there is always more to know..

The difference between genius and stupidy is that even genius has its limits.. Stupidity on the other hand knows no bounds.

Peace to all and I will be expecting quick replies to any questions I may post in the future else I will refer you to the HR Dept of CNCZONE :p

Now where was the confounded CNC machine?

Perhaps this thread should be retitled, "Corporate Politics 101".

Seems as though we've run the gammut of common and not so common issues that a creative thinking, technically inclined individual will run into in the jungle of corporate life. It's only going to get worse as 3rd world pressures become more prevalent on our once envied lifestyle.

We could be at or in the denouemont of same....

Agree, disagree, there's a solution for just about any situation....

Hey Guys,

I have read a lot of this post, see a lot of views, and just left the Corp. in the dust. They truely do not want people to think, they want robots that just say ok, what ever you want. "Please, check your brain at the door on the way in" and watch the door hit your behind on the way OUT.

Corps. make a real miss and HR makes things worse.

Sharing information with a person with True Passion isn't a problem.

I may not have a decade of experience like most, but the Passion Will Always Be There In my Heart and Soul. 24/7 365 even on Vacations.

No pun intended, just PERSONAL OPINION.

As for the problems that lead to this thread, I hope for the best outcome in favor of the individual, not the "CORPS.".

tobyaxis

Unless you have a contract or Union the company does not need a reason to fire people by law. (Unless you live in France)

I just love it when the new guy comes in to the job and knows more than anyone
how to run this company that has been around for 150 years so far.

I never spend time looking for people to fire I watch for people to inspire and promote.
We are in the business of making money and want anyone that wants to help increase
our bottom line.

When I find employees focused on personal politics I will get "rid" of that potential virus that might spread in to my work force. I dont have time for that as it detracts from making money (why we are here).

I love sheep they are the backbone of the work force they get the job done day in and day out. Sheep are content with a paycheck.
The new guys always want My job! well they cant have it I have it and I WILL protect it. If you want it you need to be a sheppard.

When it comes time to pick someone to help up top it wont be someone who does not like then company and wont be here long it will probably be a sheep.

Unless you have a contract or Union the company does not need a reason to fire people by law. (Unless you live in France)


This is correct but many times with a qualifier. I don't know the situation across the States but in Canada you can terminate an employee without cause provided you give adequate notice or you pay at least the legally required severance which varies but is normally something like 1 week pay for each year of service with a minimum of one pay period and a maximum of 5 weeks.

Problems arise because many times the company, and by this I mean all the people with decision making authority, are petty and cheap. They will go to any length to dig up 'cause' just so they can save a few weeks pay. I only have contempt for that type of pettiness and I find it very annoying because it is assumed that this is typical behaviour. It isn't and I know that from personal experience as an employee and from my practices as an employer.

And for the people who whine about 'corporate spying' what would you do as an employer when you are legally responsible for the results of your emplyees' actions, inactions, irresponsibility and even criminal acts? Also what would you do if you are a publicly listed corporation and by law have to maintain records of all email transmissions in and out including spam?

Thanks to everyone who posted. It really has gave me food for thought although I'm still no nearer to making a decision- it seems that the mojority have voted to "pass on knowledge" but many people have highlighted many negative aspects of doing this.. I'm even more confused as to what would be the most secure thing to do...

I guess I've boiled it down to 1 question: What can I possibly gain from passing on this knowledge?

It would benefit the company, i make them about 10K pure profit a month so i guess they're thinking "hey if there were two of them doing it, we'd double profits".

I really dunno what to do and it's keeping me awake at night *scrathes his head* I don't want to make the wrong decision.

If your current boss has some of the attitude as expressed in post #105 (IE: desirous of "sheep"), take the hint and DON'T pass it on.

Some folks are only interested in unilateral satisfaction (I, me, my, mine). Being exploited is one thing, taking advantage of one's skills is something entirely different. A sheep herder is only interested in the wool and/or meat on the table.....

If you are NOT valued for your skills, think of how the employer values you as a person? Fresh meat to be expoited or an asset to invest in for further/future greater returns. As an instructor explained in a Management and Labor Relations course I had to take for my degree requirements indicated:

A person who enjoys what they do and gets good job satisfaction from their work will work longer and harder and more productively than a person who's strictly there for the money.

Give the former more money and they appreciate it as they're getting paid for their passion. Give the latter more and he'll shut up for a while but he'l start crabbing for more money cuz he wasn't satisfied where it really counts.

A valued employee is one that you do what you can to keep - you'll do it while you can but realize that the person may be destined for a higher purpose. You're merely a stepping stone on his way.

In the mean time, you try to create an environment where the person feels valued and a contributing member. For some work, a simple warm body that does repetitive stuff is quite satisficient. In other cases, you need a human being who is a contributor - not just a paycheck maker. I have both situations going on now and they each create their challenges with regard to management practices.

Ultimately, your desision to stay, go, pass on or clam up is yours. However, you'll know when the feeling is right to share the information and if you should. You WON'T feel threatened or be suspicious of the intent - you'll willingly do it because it makes sense for you and the recipient.

If you have to think long and hard about it, DON'T. It clearly is the right time, place or situation to share your skills. When it is time and/or appropriate, it will just happen....

Having worked for companies who are there "just to make money" versus ones who "make money making good product", I'd be more satisfied working for the latter than the former. Besides, the former tend to do a lousy job of making product hence they have a hard time making money.

Example: GM is trying to make money, Toyota is trying to make great cars. Who's in better shape, all things considered???

Good luck and I hope you can find a place that satisfies your needs as in "needs" and "need$".

I have posted in this thread but have not directly addressed your initial questions which I thought were actually non-questions and I will explain. In order to give a person sound advice I think it is necessary to try and consider the situation from a personal point of view and phrase the advice in this context. As a caveat I have to point out I am in Canada so some of what I write below may not be as applicable in other countries but I think the principles are. You said; "My boss wants me to train someone up". I am a boss and in general when I tell an employee I want them to, or would like them to, or could they do something the politely phrased request is in reality an order; they do it or face the consequences. This is a prerogative of the employer, instructing (ordering if you like) the employee as to the performance of their duties. However for the order to be enforceable, i.e. for there to be consequences upon lack of obedience, there is a fundamental constraint on the employer; the order must fall within the range of duties that are consistent with the employee's job duties. I, personally, have another constraint. My employees, understandably, have a certain reluctance toward telling me I am an idiot; therefore I try to avoid idiotic requests no matter how they are phrased. In your thread starter, given the background you provided, the request was idiotic and at that stage I felt there was no advice that could be given other than "tell him he is an idiot" which does not qualify as constructive.

Your most recent post puts a different flavor on the situation. The idiocy of the request is not diminished but if your boss has not followed it up yet possibly he realise how idiotic it was and is unsure how to proceed. After all few people have the self confidence to walk in to a group of their emplyees, or only up to one, and announce 'that was a bloody idiotic suggestion wasn't?" even if the question is clearly rhetorical - although I do have a long term employee who has raised an eyebrow on such occasions.

So I think it is possible the next move is up to you. Assuming your description of how busy you are is correct you cannot act on the request as it is phrased; actually no matter whether you are busy or not it is too idiotic to act on any way. What kind of people is/are your boss/es? A group of hotshot arrogant engineers or someone who recognises that skilled diamond turners don't just fall of trees. If they are the former don't waste any more time; give your notice and move on. If the latter give them another chance; bring the topic up and explain that as phrased the request was unworkable but given the prospects in the job it is worth trying to see if it is possible to bring in additional employees and train them up without you having a nervous breakdown. Explain it would be a distinct expansion of your job duties and responsibilities and would require a change in status to afford you some authority over the trainees. It would also mean that it was imperative that you get proper time off and things like that because stressing you further by overwork will not set an encouraging prospect in front of the trainees. Also if you are so stressed you cannot keep your cool in front of the trainees then they are likely to bail putting everything back to square one.

This situation has the potential to be very positive or very negative; I think you should drop any thoughts along the line of; "would you lot do it for nothing? or am I just being selfish" and "what would be the most secure thing to do...". Instead you should be focussing on; "can I structure this opportunity so that it works?". Focus on the positive, try to make it work without compromising your principles or being a push over. If it cannot be made to work then move on, take it as a learning experience and use it to try and foresee if similar situations are developing in the future so you have an earlier chance to divert them to a positive path

Thanks Geof, your posts, as always hit the mark. Especialy about the "look at it like an opportunity".

It really is impossible for me to train and maintain production at current levels, I'm working lates, weekends and holidays... haven't had a holiday since October last year. I don't think my boss has thought this through really.

He does understand how difficult it is to get Diamond Machinsts though... took him 4 months to get a replacement (me) for the last guy that left and he was using agencies that were advertising all across the UK.

Many thanks for the sound advice.

This is going seem off-topic but you may see some kind of similie here.. I paid for a first aid course while I was on my week off of work. I passed and then became a qualified first aider. When my boss found out he was happy, because up until then we didn't have one at our workshop. So I put it to him that if he wanted me to be the appointed person he should perharps cross my palm with a bit more silver. The end being that he couldn't understand why I should have a pay rise and said I was being a bit mean. Now don't get me wrong, If theres a major issue with some in distress I will do my best, but this is MY knowledge bought and paid for by me,and I don't think any boss has a right to demand my knowledge for nothing. I realise that they are trying to save money but nobody gets anything for nothing. I'm paid to write programs on a cnc lathe, and am very good at what I do. My boss pays me to use my knowledge for this, and consequently I feel he owns the program I wrote, however he doesn't own my mind and experience. Be it creating procrams, putting a bandage on or my ability to sire children. Tell your governer to get stuffed!!!! We make the wheels turn and somebody else will always take a good setter. (climbs off his soap box and retreats quietly into the shadows from whenst he came!!)

I only teach or train people that i like. You can't expect to be paid for it, and, as it happened to me, most people that tought me something were not expecting some kind of reward, they just did it.
On the other issue, I do not think any company has any rights about anything you know whatsoever, they can always fire you for not teaching your coworkers, but besides that, What can the company do? Inject you some thruth serum?
The knowledge that we aquire over the years has some value, but no company can have any claims on whats inside your head.

CND-Haas jockey

Sounds like you should ask them to pay for the trainning course you took. I don't think they are asking you to "train" the other employee's in first aid response??? are they??? If so that could carry some legal ramifications for you and them if someone is hurt and later decided to sue.......
I would,also remind them that your first aid is only good for 1/2/3??? years before needing refreshed...something that they should pay for also if they expect you to respond to an emergency situation. The "due diligency" is on the employer to protect the safety of their employee's...something to maybe bring up in a company meeting....
i.e."how do you plan to look out for us in the event of an emergency"??
First time I asked this, I got shoulder shrugs. Now we have people trainned in first aid,fire respone,spill response, and a plan for evac, as well as designated people to shut off main elec, gas to the plant. A general meeting area in the event of alarm and a P.M. service on our sprinkler system... our insurance premium also went down after the fire marshall inspected and reviewed our emergency respone plan......
food for thought.......

Very well said.


I have posted in this thread but have not directly addressed your initial questions which I thought were actually non-questions and I will explain. In order to give a person sound advice I think it is necessary to try and consider the situation from a personal point of view and phrase the advice in this context. As a caveat I have to point out I am in Canada so some of what I write below may not be as applicable in other countries but I think the principles are. You said; "My boss wants me to train someone up". I am a boss and in general when I tell an employee I want them to, or would like them to, or could they do something the politely phrased request is in reality an order; they do it or face the consequences. This is a prerogative of the employer, instructing (ordering if you like) the employee as to the performance of their duties. However for the order to be enforceable, i.e. for there to be consequences upon lack of obedience, there is a fundamental constraint on the employer; the order must fall within the range of duties that are consistent with the employee's job duties. I, personally, have another constraint. My employees, understandably, have a certain reluctance toward telling me I am an idiot; therefore I try to avoid idiotic requests no matter how they are phrased. In your thread starter, given the background you provided, the request was idiotic and at that stage I felt there was no advice that could be given other than "tell him he is an idiot" which does not qualify as constructive.

Your most recent post puts a different flavor on the situation. The idiocy of the request is not diminished but if your boss has not followed it up yet possibly he realise how idiotic it was and is unsure how to proceed. After all few people have the self confidence to walk in to a group of their emplyees, or only up to one, and announce 'that was a bloody idiotic suggestion wasn't?" even if the question is clearly rhetorical - although I do have a long term employee who has raised an eyebrow on such occasions.

So I think it is possible the next move is up to you. Assuming your description of how busy you are is correct you cannot act on the request as it is phrased; actually no matter whether you are busy or not it is too idiotic to act on any way. What kind of people is/are your boss/es? A group of hotshot arrogant engineers or someone who recognises that skilled diamond turners don't just fall of trees. If they are the former don't waste any more time; give your notice and move on. If the latter give them another chance; bring the topic up and explain that as phrased the request was unworkable but given the prospects in the job it is worth trying to see if it is possible to bring in additional employees and train them up without you having a nervous breakdown. Explain it would be a distinct expansion of your job duties and responsibilities and would require a change in status to afford you some authority over the trainees. It would also mean that it was imperative that you get proper time off and things like that because stressing you further by overwork will not set an encouraging prospect in front of the trainees. Also if you are so stressed you cannot keep your cool in front of the trainees then they are likely to bail putting everything back to square one.

This situation has the potential to be very positive or very negative; I think you should drop any thoughts along the line of; "would you lot do it for nothing? or am I just being selfish" and "what would be the most secure thing to do...". Instead you should be focussing on; "can I structure this opportunity so that it works?". Focus on the positive, try to make it work without compromising your principles or being a push over. If it cannot be made to work then move on, take it as a learning experience and use it to try and foresee if similar situations are developing in the future so you have an earlier chance to divert them to a positive path

CND-Haas jockey

Sounds like you should ask them to pay for the trainning course you took. I don't think they are asking you to "train" the other employee's in first aid response??? are they??? If so that could carry some legal ramifications for you and them if someone is hurt and later decided to sue.......
I would,also remind them that your first aid is only good for 1/2/3??? years before needing refreshed...something that they should pay for also if they expect you to respond to an emergency situation. The "due diligency" is on the employer to protect the safety of their employee's...something to maybe bring up in a company meeting....
i.e."how do you plan to look out for us in the event of an emergency"??
First time I asked this, I got shoulder shrugs. Now we have people trainned in first aid,fire respone,spill response, and a plan for evac, as well as designated people to shut off main elec, gas to the plant. A general meeting area in the event of alarm and a P.M. service on our sprinkler system... our insurance premium also went down after the fire marshall inspected and reviewed our emergency respone plan......
food for thought.......

These were more or less my same sentiments, however the issue I was trying to pursue was that most employers expect you to share your knowledge without any financial increments incurred to them. They will demand a high turnover and maximum effort for a previousley agreed wage, which is fine by me, but when they start asking for something which they are not paying for , then I'm buggered if I'm going to feather someone elses cap for no gain. It may sound like I'm very anti-management but at the end of the day I'm in it for the dough. Whilst I enjoy my work immensly, I want to make money too. Bosses don't become multi millionaires by doing something for nothing, and as the boss of my family (ie the main breadwinner) I for one would not work for sod all. (There! I've flown the workers flag again)

I dont know anyone that did'nt start out as an apprenttis

Absolutely correct Greggory,however the issue is should we as setters be expected to pass on our knowledge to benefit someone else for no extra money, after all it's not us who'll be making money from teaching others but you can be sure that the md will be rubbing his hands together in the future.

Absolutely correct Greggory,however the issue is should we as setters be expected to pass on our knowledge to benefit someone else for no extra money, after all it's not us who'll be making money from teaching others but you can be sure that the md will be rubbing his hands together in the future.

Did you learn in a vacuum or did someone else, maybe another setter, help you acquire your knowledge and experience. I think you are focussing too much on the assumed benefit to your employer and not enough on how are young people coming up going to learn the necessary skills. Perhaps if you are involved in some formal training scheme where you have a responsibility for designing the course of study you should be paid accordingly. However, as a skilled tradesman, who served an indentured apprienticeship of 10,000 hours, I always accepted it as part of my job responsibilities, as an employee, to participate in the training of apprentices and the supervision and training of machine operators.

woah there friend, I think maybe I've come across as a bit militant. I have no problem training people, I have been showing one of our labourers what the whole game is all about, and he is taking it all in rather well. My point is this. Employers are expecting something for nothing and I feel that with nearly 20 years of experience It should be a case of credit where credit is due. I would not presume to ask anyone to show me how to fix my car for nothing, and I feel that if an employer recognises that you have the knowledge, know how and the right aptitude to train someone , then surely this should be recognised. I voted for the top one in the poll, I just don't like to be taken advantage of,and this is becoming an unfortunate habit in our cut-throat industry. Sorry if I've given people the impression that I would refuse point blank unless financial recompence is offered but it was only with regard to employers who just expect it from you as a "by the way " matter.

.....woah there friend, I think maybe I've come across as a bit militant....

Consider my comments softened by a similar degree.

Although I think compared with some of the posts in this thread you can hardly be considered militant. :)

Just skimming through some of the posts, so may not have caught the finer points.

I thought this post started as the equivilent of "would you spend your free time with a newbee without compensation".

Working on the job within a group has an inference of getting along and being a team player, which includes showing others how to perform tasks.

In the case of a working shop and being an employee, I would rather teach someone to do something well than fix their mistakes born of ignorance. I'm getting paid the same if I'm showing someone a machine or just standing in front of it. I've been an employee and employer. Fortunately I'm no longer involved in worker/management head butting.

Compensation should be based on all skill sets combined, not breaking out the individual value of each competency.

The questions in this poll seem to filled with a large portion of circumstantial bias directing the results to one conclusion. Not much direction to positive outlook options that I can see, but only "what is in it for me". I think a lot of us have been there at one point or another.

Part of the solution is to become pro-active, not reactive.

As to training:

I attempt training for anyone that is willing to ask for assistance. On or off the job. What good are my skills that I have gained via other generous souls, if I don't pass them along to someone else. To confuse the question of compensational "self worth" to training others "on the job" is on the side of compulsory dissatisfaction with what the employer has already offered as his idea of fair trade. I can't imagine finding any satisfaction withholding my skills because there is nothing "extra" in it to benefit me. I fear underlying tones of this type of selfish mindset, can show effects in other areas of ones life. Ultimately, the one that loses out the most is the trainee. :frown:

I don't care what I am asked to do, either I am on the team or not, as long as I get paid what I determine as an acceptable compensation package for my skills. As long as no one is complaining that something else isn't getting done. Finding the environment unacceptable is when it is time to raise the white flag, start looking for the next level of opportunity to step up or a leap onto the same ride this employer is on. You don't have to become them, you just have to survive. Then in retrospect, think of all the hours you will be training noobs for a minimal return when they walk once skilled because you can't or don't want to afford to pay them what they are really worth.

As to wages:

What always gets me about requesting a raise is like a major offense to an employer. Yet if you try to moonlight with your own equipment on the side, you now are competition. The brass tacks of this dilemma seems to be, as has been mentioned, a control freak issue. It is to their greater benefit to keep costs down and grow, regardless of whether there is any benefit left over to hand to the employees as last on the list. They have plans for that money you helped generate and that may not include you!

Many, many years ago, I recall one past employer whom consider he OWNED and CREATED me and my measly net worth. Telling us all that from time to time to pamper his own inflated ego. Who and the hell did I think I was, asking for more than I already over pay you(1980 at $7.75/hr was 60% the going rate for Machinists). Nearly constant public ridicule and intimidation was the tone he set, so no one else would even question his authority. The order of the day was that no one else is going to hire you punks, so you need me more than I need you. Not ALL employers are like this, but if they try to CONTROL your prosperity in the slightest way......you can fire them on the same terms. No love lost with this jerk either!

The way I see it, business owners either pay the going rate for the facility and materials they need to stay in business or they are in trouble. Going elsewhere is not always an option. When an owner/employer raises their prices, it is in effect so they don't lose money out of their own pay check. To put an employee in the hot seat or brow beat them for even suggesting they need to be raising their price is hypocritical IMO. If you don't walk when they say no, then they still win. Do their suppliers or landlords give them a choice? Everyone has the take it or leave it option on the table. The victor is usually the one that had proven the loser had less leverage to go elsewhere. Don't think for a moment that they cannot survive without you. Chances are, they will find another sap(or 2) to take advantage of, possibly at a cheaper rate than what they paid previously.

So, to keep peace in the shop/office the only choice is to silently market those services in the experience you have elsewhere. Competition is fine, but sometimes the loss of key people may make them suffer on the cheap for a short term. Of course every job market has its wage limit. If you can prove you are worth more, don't expect the moon and the stars. Similarly, if they over price the products produced compared to the remainder of the market. Sales go elsewhere to boot!

As I have been told, there is no real money as a shop floor worker. The real money is in management. The more you can manage, the more compensation there is, whether you own it or not. Working with small shop owners that squeak when they walk will never change. If the shoe were on the other foot, I'm sure we would fall into the same step! :p

DC

Iain, just finished reading the entire thread (phew*), dont know if you have made a decision or not yet, but my opinion is this...

Have you considered just talking to your boss about the situation, it does not sound like your job is at stake, explain your thoughts and concerns. Sounds like you could use help to cover the workload, suggest moving forward with this in a way that everyone is happy, surely he will appreciate the straight forward approach (unless he is a moron) suggest monetary compensation and see what he says.

After all, no holidays - when do you go fishing ???

Russell.

I must admit a little sympathy for you. It is a dilemma I know. I am a pattern maker by trade, and a dying trade at that! Very few of us get the opportunity to pass on what we know to the next generation. Yes, you should ,for free. If you, as a craftsman , want to see the job you are in continue into the future it is an obligation to train whenever possible. One very large reason for the loss of employment in this country has been the refusal of the industrial establishment to train and make availible the nessessary education to continue those trades needed to be ultra competative in a global market. If poeple like you and me do not, we will see ourselves pushing burgers very soon. Think of that, I know I've there, laid off soo many times, seven to be exact, and let go because the company went under, three more times, and the last time because they sent my work to China. Do it because it is your duty as an American. Well so much for my two cents.

Speedre: the reason the work went to China was not because of a lack of trained personnel, or people who want to lear, it was due to lower labor cost. Besides who wants to learn a skill that is being phased out. Ask the local buggy whip maker school about that....

A tool and die maker in China makes pennies in comparison to what a journeyman T&D maker does in USA. He has NO appreciable benefits or health care. Industry now looks at this as "legacy costs" not "benefits" which is what they used to offer as enticements for you to come to work for them.

It is easy to get work if you give it away. What is your time and knowledge worth and are/will you be adequately compesated???

Keep that in mind the next time the kid who's working for minimum wage collects you $2.25 for a gallon of milk, or $3.00+ for a gallon of gas. He could care less if you're a skilled tradesman - the hospitals are that way tool. All they want is cash, credit card or insurance verification....

Sadly, that's what its boiled down to......

The car companies are going thru the deflationary spiral now ($25/hr jobs being traded for $15/hr). I fear the entire country will follow suit. Yet you don't see the VP"s or corporate "suits" going thru the same "rationalizations".

If there is a God, there times will come too....

NC-Cams you are right most of the time, but you just proved that a fellow can't be right all of the time. Tool Making isn't the same as standing on an assembly line putting the same part on in the same place over and over again. Sure, the lowering of wages from silly to reasonable for a job a monkey can do isn't that far fetched. Tool Making however is a skill that is still needed.

My area has found it's manufacturing roots once again, only there is a huge problem. The skilled labor has retired or gone elsewhere following the jobs when my area decided to embrace rustbelt idiology. Now they (the manufacturers) face a problem. There is a NEED for skilled labor and none to be found. Youngsters didnt join the ranks because they saw the problems that the manufacturers imposed with their outsourcing.

Sure China and the other cheap labor countries offered reduced costs, but the probems of cheap labor thousands of miles away finally hit home. If there is a problem with the product, getting it fixed is much much harder and more expensive than if it was built in house on location. As long as there is manufacturing, there will always be a need for dies and fixturing. These items do not readily happen by programming a mill or lathe and popping out parts you can assemble and expect products to be made.

A Tool Maker is like a jeweler. Yes these are archaic skilled trades, but they are needed. Fits are crucial. Blanks need to be designed to work propperly. Blanks can be close through the aid of computers, but computers still are not the real world. When stamping blanks, they have to be right there, not close. Even the best CADs can still miss crucial flaws. Engineers still make mistakes.

It has been said many times here. The best machine still cannot produce the parts with enough accuracy to reproduce itself. This is where the Tool Maker comes in. He/she can take these parts with their minor imperfections and either file, sand, stone or fit them so that they work and not only meet the accuracy of the machine that made them, but surpass that accuracy. I seem to recall your mentioning a spindle bearing stack up with inferior bearings that ran as good as a high precision spindle with much much more expensive bearngs. How was it done, and what skilled craftsman did it?

A friend absolutely hates unions and sees that thry have beent he downfall of American manufacturing. Garbage men make wages unheard of ages ago, Riding a truck, dumping cans that were brought to the curb by the home owner, and demanding wages of someone that made it through High school (at least) and spent time learning a trade is ludicrous. Standing in the same spot putting a widget on in the same place, over and over is about the same. No skill nor education is needed. Why should they make such astronomical wages?

Skilled labor is every bit as important as a skilled and educated Engineer. Both went through the learning processes. Both sweated bullets to learn their trades. Both should be paid on par with each other. Oddly, a thought just crossed my mind. With so many computer programs taking the load of thinking off of an engineers shoulders, maybe they should have their wages reduced also. The president of a company can now tell a computer what kind of machine he wants parts o make, the computer can make him a working model on his computer screen, algorythims and canned calculus can work out the important physics, and an Engineer has been replaced.

When all the parts pile up off of the paletized tool room it will still take an educated person to assemble them and make them work together so that they produce parts. Skilled trades haven't gone the way of Buggy Whip Makers. If that were the case, you wouldn't have your business.

MrWild: I'd be inclined to agree with every syllable of your premise but sadly it doesn't fit what a very close friend went thru recently.

My business partner at camco was a machine shop owner/tool/die maker. The shops in his town cut each others prices to the bone to get/hoard the work away from their competition (mostly auto industry sub contactors). He couldn't cut anymore as there wasn't anymore fat to cut. The fat cat days of cost is no object to the OEM's is GONE.

If you're in a market that is below or near capacity saturation, you can do OK. If the market is oversaturated with capacity - the prices get cut and so does profitability - and some businesses go under as well.

The camco was a carefully focused effort. We got into a business that we both knew and like. We also got into one that requires special equipment that very, very few shops have. Moreover, we addressed the "boutique" area of the market that the brand name cam companies can't/won't service. We also got invovled with high end consulting firms who do prototype work for the OEM's.

We couldn't give our services to the OEM's because of who we are and how we do it. Yet they pay nearly double what we'd charge but they buy it from a high priced consultant.

In some ways, we're responsible for our kids not wanting to be machinists. Did you/we ever say that they want there kids to have it better than me??? Yeah, go to college, get a GOOD job.

Sadly the college profs teach the kids that greasy knuckle work is not to be respected. Do it with CAD and CNC. Don't think so?? Interview a kid from UofM some time. Talk about an attitude.

I almost wish that the engineers had to go thru an apprenticship like they used to put kids thru when they came out of college. Learn the business from the ground up.

Interestingly, that's how they do it in some Japanese companies. Hardly anyone will argue that the Japanese are not exceptionally good at what they do. Strond discipline and knowledge of the basics are required. We've lost that somewhere along the way....

machinist work being considered 'the same as engineering' is absurd - sorry..

that said, of course mold makers do lots of special skilled things... these days i see alot of cnc'd electrodes being used in cnc'd EDM machines... also, alot of cnc'd everything else for mold making... not so much in china though...

i know a bunch of physicists... their labs get most of their stuff made by manual machinists in house.. so not all college-boys dont respect hands-on.. in fact many of these theoretical physicists (UofC faculty and fermi lab people) are also good manual machinists themselves.. shocker: they learned in college... where if they wanted some special high-tolerance part made, they HAD to do it themselves...

my manufacturing-technology instructors never tried to talk trash about manual-machinists, they just advised that it was a bad career choice for most people...

i probably shouldnt have posted this!

cheers!

Engineers who know how to machine stuff make better engineers.

Machinists who become engineers are better engineers than those who won't get their hands dirty in a machine shop.

Engineer/machinists and/or machinst/engineers tend to be more creative and practical at solving problems - seems the ability to work in hard metal does something for preventing people from drilling holes inside the middle of a billet with no external point of entries - or even asking for it to be done and failing to see why it can't be.

Sadly, as a "babby boomer" who intended to go to college from an early age, when I got to high school, it was IMPOSSIBLE for a kid in the academics program to take "vocational education" classes (IE: metal or wood shop). I had to wait until I got out of school and employed as an engineer so I could buy the lathes and mills so I could learn to do what should have been a prerequisite course of study/education for ANY potential engineering student.

Sadder yet, some of academia to this day still instills the notion that manual machining is an unnecessary skill. CAD and CNC will/have replaced it and thinking the otherwise is an arcane way of thinking. Ask the MBS's who run industry now. Can you spell "outsource"??? They can.

No wonder some of the stuff designed these days is of such poor quality and durability. What do you expect when all the engineers are taught to simpy design it and toss it over the wall to some low cost producer to make it - what you say as the engineer goes. The concept of "design for manufactureability" is now a thing that has to be taught as a separate course - it isn't ingrained into the engineers/designers becuase they never had to make it.

We're destroying our infrastructure and losing our ability to make durable goods. Why should we make it when it can be imported (including ultimately the engineering and machining) from some off shore maching house that can and does know how to make it dirt cheap. More profit in marketing than in making it.

Will the last one who leaves, please turn out the lights?.............

...machinist work being considered 'the same as engineering' is absurd - sorry..

Where, in the thread, did anyone post that machinist work was considered the same as engineering?

I have scanned through but cannot find it.

Just skimming through some of the posts, so may not have caught the finer points.

I thought this post started as the equivilent of "would you spend your free time with a newbee without compensation".

Working on the job within a group has an inference of getting along and being a team player, which includes showing others how to perform tasks.

In the case of a working shop and being an employee, I would rather teach someone to do something well than fix their mistakes born of ignorance. I'm getting paid the same if I'm showing someone a machine or just standing in front of it. I've been an employee and employer. Fortunately I'm no longer involved in worker/management head butting.

Compensation should be based on all skill sets combined, not breaking out the individual value of each competency.

Hi

keithorr very well said :violin:

i wonder whos brain i can pick in here :withstupi (flame2) ;)

some interesting opinions in here

cheers

for me it all boils down to who i'm passing the knowledge on to. if some one wants to really learn and do something yes i'm all for it i will spend some time with them but on the other hand what if you have the bosses kid show up and you have to teach him your skill and he has no desire to learn or be there for that matter i say they can all kiss my #$& will you know what i mean

Where, in the thread, did anyone post that machinist work was considered the same as engineering?

I have scanned through but cannot find it.

Post #128 Geof

Post #128 Geof

Yes that is the post by vacpress; I wanted to find out where he had seen in any earlier posts that someone had claimed that machinist work was the same as engineering.

Yes that is the post by vacpress; I wanted to find out where he had seen in any earlier posts that someone had claimed that machinist work was the same as engineering.

I'll keep my eyeballs peeled for you ;)

Actually post #128 talked about a skilled tradesman called a Tool and Die Maker. A bit different than a machinist. Tool Makers do a lot of work that is engineering related. Should a Tool and Die Maker make wages on par with engineers? Oh yes indeed. And, they usually do.

I just ticked yes, As I believe (non work related although I always give good advice at work ie dont give misinformation to fellow employees) there are a few dying arts at the moment regarding machines and machinery and making things in general. Kids dont seem to have any interest in making things...just buying things and some things cant be bought imho. I'm a member of the "tinkerers association" whereby I have all kinds of interests and they can change overnight :shrug: Most tinkerers give freely of their time and experience. One of the first fellow tinkerers I met (real not internet world) is 90yo and still has an interest in tinkering although he cant pick much up (physically not intellectually...He's as bright as a button) but still calls for appraisals on what i'm doing with my machines. Another of the original tinkerers fell out with me after I sold him a PWM speed controller i'd scratch built in 96....The problem was i'd "potted" the IC after removing the manufacturers part number from the IC (I know it was a dirty trick letting him "unpot" all the epoxy only to find he couldnt copy the work (and save on the expense) i'd done....Back to the original post...Yes i'd pass on anything I know...Just not to the extent it would then put me "out of the game"... Times move on and i'd now give him the original PCB with all the IC's on it as it's no longer anything special :lol:

Hi lain, you can always tell your boss you haven't got the time, but then he would probably give you a broom and tell you to sweep the floor while you're walking around.
The other option is if you aquired the extra skill over 6 months at this place then provided the person you're going to train is already knowledgeable enough, it will be a short training program and you can go on holiday and not have to work week ends and lunch breaks.
Ian.

I give knowledge away for free to the workers but charge the management by the hour, Management usually are not craftsmen. just managers, craftsmen gave knowledge to me for free (usually on company time)

i think we are not machines. if employer had invested on us, he also earned from us. knowledge is a tree which gives shlter to new generation, it should be passed on but not the employer secrates. if knowledge is not trasfered, the development will stop. every body will have to invent their own electricity for him self...............................................
sanjiv

diamond & CNC ! what is combination!

When you see a apprentice struggle and that was you 35 years ago, you think of that old sod that gave you the all that stick and beat you into what you are now, all those things he gave you that you can't get from a book.
OK so you let him struggle four one or two days, but when you tap him on the shoulder and say this is how you do it, then he says no you old fart we have cnc's to do that now, it makes you fell old.
No seriously, when you pass on skills to an apprentice and you see it put to good use you feel that you've past it on not give it away.

I thought the idea of this site was to share knowledge!
As for work,you are being paid and the trainee will never gain the skill you have untill they have many years of experience

Wow, I hope that you've made up your mind by now as wether or not to train someone/that guy. For me, my feelings on that situation go as: get over the fear that the new guy will become too good at it, and make you seem obselete, if the skill is so skillful, then no matter how much you tell a new guy,it will take them sometime to be able to do the 'tricky stuff' aka 'the finer part'. As far as how much to charge? I charge the employer nothing more than they pay me already, ok, maybe I'd take an extra break. But, for the trainee, I would punk him out. Make him sweep the floor beneath you, and stack bb's before I bother to show someone new something. I have the knowledge I have b/c of ONE reason. That's b/c I cared enough to learn. and I make any/all show they care before I involve them. If they show they want to learn bad enough to put up with your crap, then and only then, do I start the training. It's such a great feeling, to find someone that will put up with your crap just to be around you and learn what you have to show and tell. Sharing your knowledge with someone is an emotional thing, and isn't to be taken lightly, make 'em show that they too care about.
Hope this helps, it helped me just to write it.

Hi all, the world is round and what goes around comes around.
I don't mind telling yoall that I have benefitted from your discussions on a variety of topics and so am the richer for it.
If I can give someone a leg up and in so doing let them breathe the air of enlightenment, then they will have that much more of a competitive edge, that will be passed on to someone else who needs it too.
No one here remembers the days when an apprentice paid his journeyman to teach him the trade. I don't know when that was but I heard it said many a time by some of the old guys I worked with.
In most workshops I worked in there was usually a free dispensation of ideas and dodges that made getting the job done a breeze, as opposed to finding out the hard way, time and time again.
You always looked after your workmates and helped them when you could, that is if you weren't one of those mean ol' barstewarts that wouldn't give you the smell of an oily rag.
I guess at the end of the day it can be summed up as to fear of letting someone else get a bit ahead of you in the job race, and in so doing lose your job to them.
In my opinion, water will always find it's own level, and if the other person relies on getting ideas to do the job from others, then you've nothing to worry about.
Ian.

I have the knowledge I have b/c of ONE reason. That's b/c I cared enough to learn. and I make any/all show they care before I involve them. If they show they want to learn bad enough to put up with your crap, then and only then, do I start the training.

All I can add to this is "AMEN Brother!!" I have only been in CNC work for a couple years now but I have put up with alot of crap from the old guy in the shop. Being truly interested in what they have to say and doing as they ask will usualy get the best result. I have never been to trade school but I feel that I got a degree for the school of hard knocks. When I get a new guy in my place to learn how to weld all the wierd stuff, I usualy get a smartass that at one time might have held the filler material and now thet call themselves a welder. Let them struggle til' they "Come up for air." then give them a few pointers. It's just natures way

it s my job to pass my knowledge on but it s not free , i m paid to do my job and it is my job to see to it the other guys are doing their jobs properly ,
for the guys i like i will show them some tricks i have under my sleave ,
as for the insubordinate lazy guys everything is by the book , until i take over and fix it the way i know how ,
work is work and it s in our best interest for us as workers to work together

ive worked with guys that think they know it all and hold everything in their lonely paranoid of loosing their job minds , they are not team players , and eventually get weeded out

we are all replacable in any companies eyes ,best if everyone is on the same side

Machinists have only ONE thing to market........their acquired knowledge.....regardless what any court says, if you train everyone to do what you do, your just training your replacement..ie, someone who will work for less money and do the same (basically) work.

Hi rpm, that's where you're dead wrong about the working for less money bit.
When you finish your time and start to get a job as a fully indentured or trained worker, you have a learning curve that only flattens out when you retire.
During this time you accumulate a heap of varied knowledge, and in so doing pass on a lot of knowledge.
I've never met anyone who was climbing up the tree that was going to work for less once he, or she, had found out how to do it.
To the contrary, you'd be harrassing your boss for a raise now that you knew all about it.
The only time you'd work willingly for less is if you knew nothing about the job and relied on someone to tell you how to open your toolbox.
Knowledge is power and the strength of your knowledge only makes you more valuable in the eyes of your employer.
An employer who fails to appreciate the value of his work force is a fool and will lose his most valuable assets to someone who knows how to appreciate them.
I can honestly say without fear of correction that in forty years of cutting metal I have never worked for less than the previous job paid.
So you tell the guy next to you how to do the job, do you think he's going to go to the boss and say he'll work for less than he's getting now so that he can have your job?
If you believe this and are the close minded tight lipped arrrrshole that never says 'good day' in case someone found out he was having a good time working his butt off and also wanted a bit of the action, then I pity you.
Ian.

Mr. Handlewanker(and others),
Things probably operate a little differently down under than they do in Pittsburgh, USA. I have worked in several shops and personally witnessed people of large experience pushed out the door because they hired someone from trade school, broke them in on the job and then layed off the experienced people in the short sighted thought that the wideget job they have today will last them a lifetime. I'm talking saving $5.00 per hour. If it happened to one person I would say that the person probably wasn't pulling his weight, etc....but I have personally witnessed as many as ten people within a weeks time be replaced by people right out of school with little experience who will work for entry level wages. I am not telling you that the people you work with will go to the boss and offer to work for less money I am saying they are hired in at less money, broke in on the job, and then they let you go and go hire some more people in at $5.00 to ten dollars an hour less than you were getting paid anyway. Sorry you think I am an ARRRSE or whatever but lifes experiences are different all over.

This is the nature of the beast it would seem across many different vocational lines of work blue and white collar alike. What the people making these decisions seem to overlook it that you get what you pay for and unfortunetly so do their customers.

With the current crop of dumb arses coming out I don't think it will be as big of an issue when I am 50-55 (not for another 15 years from now if I make it) because the job pool will be slimming as the flocks of older people making up a large % of the workforce start to retire and die off. This will leave a vacuum that we hopefully won't fill completely with outsourcing to other countries.

I think if your educated, skilled and have a wealth of experience/knowledge you are better off now that those of that age currently and over the past 20 years. I have seen a rapid growth in consultant hiring due to the fact that the guys retired earlier and no one can find a replacement that is as knowledgable, I see consulting as a viable option in the future as well for those that become true experts in their fields.

A friend of mines dad was a consultant on giant turbine engines. He used to say the work seems easy to the unknowing on looker and the bill seems large for the work done. But when it comes down to it the markups on design drawings and installed equipment thats not running are free, the $10,000 fee is for knowing where to put them.

Bowman

Dear H-W-: Post #150 is the rule as opposed to the exception.

It is that way on the shop floor with trainees and also that way in the salarieed ranks - hire in the kids out of school (cheaper wages and MUCH lower benefit costs due to better "risk pool number factors" (younger people are generally healthier and don't need to use the hospitalization and/or other health care benefits.

When you're looking at lame health care insurance that can cost $100 to $150 per week (BIG group rates), ANYTHING that can be done to lower the median age and gotten away with can and will be done. BTW, there are even cases that folks with pre-existing conditions or even pre-conditions (IE diabetes, hypertension) can't even get insurancd or pay almost $500 per week, IF THEY CAN GET COVERAGE (and it is usually lame).

American management has gotten absolutely ruthless with regard to hiring and personnel practices - a reason why I'm no longer employed in the auto industry and am struggling at self employment.

The say that they want senior engineers but give you nothing but crap to do until they find a way to run you off - stuff that kids get away with will result in "remedial action/personal improvement plan" which usually is actually greasing the slides for a forced departure.

Sorry to report that its gonna get to be dog eat dog and the naive kids will not get the benefit of a "technical continuum" from senior staff who can pass on their knowledge. Sadly, the new managers think that CNC's will solve all their problems as will CAD/CAM modeling of parts prior to machine.

Anybody want to be $12K worth of cams (now boat anchors) that had "perfect tool path simulations" but in reality are 0.060" short for no defineable reason??? This from a college grad guy who ran the tool path in cyber space and now says that his CNC says the parts are right even though Helen Keller can see that they are machined wrong.

You'd become a tight lipped "arsehole" if you had it shove up yours and broken off as often as some of us have had it happen to us. Walk a mile in my shoes with my sore a$$ before you take the position (perhaps justifiable in your experience) that I and others like RPM' have encountered.

Sorry but that's how it has gotten in the great old US of A....

Hi RPM, I quite sympathise with those people who have had experiances like you mention.
I don't think you personally are the rear bit that breathes in a hoarse voice and has halitosis big time, just noting that some people are as I said.
Up untill the mid 90's we had a strong union movement and closed shop policies in OZ, then the government got legislation passed to ban closed shops and the rest is history.
This was designed to loosen up the trade barriers and make us more competitive in the world market place.
The practices that you describe of dog eat dog only weakens the industry, and like a body that has been abused for years, is no match for even a third world country that simply floods your market with it's goods and because the price is low, eliminates the competition and installs itself as your chief supplier.
I once read on this forum about some employers "desperately" trying to keep the doors open for one more day by cutting corners and conditions.
Everyone sympathised with them.
****e, it's arrrshls like these that dredge the dregs to get cost down.
I worked in South Africa for a small firm in the early 60's, and it was a real dump.
The big difference was there was a big shortage of skilled labour and you could virtually walk out of a job at midday, look in the local paper adds and start a job that afternoon.
In those days we didn't have "made in China" or India or any other foreign country flooding the market.
"Made in Japan" was a synonym for Cheap and nasty and only a fool bought this way.
The big names were "made in Great Britain", "Made in USA", or if you were really serious and only bought the best then it was "MADE IN GERMANY" Ja?
All my tools when I came out of my time were Stahlwille, Bluepoint, Roebuck, Rabone Chesterman, Moore & wright, Shardlow etc etc.
Never heard of a japanese tool manufacturer then.
When it comes to pointing the finger the buck stops at the door of the government in power.
If they don't have a strict import control policy to protect jobs, then you'll be competing against third world countries, who are funded by the outsourcers from your own country, and will get beaten down for price every time.
Before I retired a couple of years ago, the firm I then worked for sent a delegation of middle management to Taiwan to view a pending contract negotiation.
It was an eye opening experiance in workplace practice, of how people willingly embraced technology, and as the products being produced were destined for the West, so they had their shoulders firmly to the wheel.
In one situation, a little old lady of very mature years was working a CNC turning centre and her daughter was loading 3/4" brass bars into the bar feeder.
The "factory" was a room in a house in one of the villages with a dirt floor.
By their standards they were well paid, better than the land workers next door.
Our living standards are too high to expect to work for low wages, so we must adapt and think more and act less.
The days of living by the sweat of your brow are long gone and those that want to live that way had better get a liking for peanuts.
The point is if you want a life of affluence then you had better have an infrastructure to support it, and getting $5 an hour less than someone with nothing better to do than take second best, is not the way to go.
I can't imagine why people would want to get into a dying industry, when the only prospects are to get as little money as the boss can squeeze you for.
If you really want to make money, find something that you can sell for 50 cents, make a million of them, then get someone else to make them for you and you have just discovered the first rule of life.
Moral:- Be clever, be happy, let someone else do the hard work.
Ian.

As I see it, the knowledge I gain at the current place of employment, (4 years), is nothing more than learning something different, and we do that whether we are on his clock or not.
This web site, for example, is a culmination of many working people, asking questions and receiving answers. Perhaps something that is researched here can be applied in the work environment. But the Boss is not paying for it, but is receiving the benifit of your research, so where would the legality lie?
We all learn something new every day, so who does it really belong to?

Steve

Hi Newby, a good point. if you learned a really clever way to do a job on this web site, would you still do it the same old long way back at the salt mine, or do it the new way and in so doing make your boss a bit richer and not get any richer yourself?
At the end of the day we just want to do the job easier and also show how clever we are, and in so doing your boss will soon know that he's got a whizz kid on the payrole and you just might get to get recognised at next pay revue.
The last time I improved the working of a job the foreman got the time for the job cut and we all had to do it quicker. No money in that.
After that we just kept the ideas to ourselves and so we had it easy.
While we're on the subject of ideas and bettering ourselves jobwise, here's a problem I encountered on the job and the steps I took to overcome it.
The problem is this, you have a job, made of fabricated steel pieces, welded together.
One of the faces of the job has a steel boss welded on, about 40mm diam and 6mm thick.
The centre of the boss has a hole drilled in it,before welding on, of about 1/2" diam to assist the drilling and reaming of the final operation, which is to drill and ream the boss to 3/4" diam at a certain co-ordinate point.
The problem is this, the co-ordinate point is not in the centre of the boss, but the 1/2" hole is, making it difficult to prevent the drill from wandering into the predrilled hole, and throwing it off centre.
The predrilled boss was a mistake that could not be rectified.
There are four such bosses on this component,two per side, and each must be on the same plane as the others and within .002" of centre. The job is about 24" square.
The work is being done on a horizontal borer, and there are many hundreds of the component.
Question:- how to drill the holes, prior to reaming, without the drill run-off, and not increasing the time.
A slot drill and end mill did not work, and boring to co-ordinates took too much time.
Assuming you are the machinist how would you overcome this problem and so maintain the time schedule for the job and profitability of the firm, and the undying gratitude of the foreman without monetary gain to yourself?
Ian.

Question:- Assuming you are the machinist h.........
Ian.

Good Question! :).....Well, do I have to wait for other people to offer their 2cents or are you going to give up the gold?.....or would that be passing your knowledge onto someone who would sneak in and take your job :eek:!! Only kidding. :) I cant think of a way that wouldnt reduce the cycle time by adding in extra steps. Whats the answer?

For knowing more about a process/task or being able to learn new techniques to perform them faster/cheaper you are then expected to implement these ideas at work. Then they expect the higher output all the time. You better get your pay straight when your hired, all that extra knowledge they learn you have and try to use doesn't get compensated once your already working at a place. This is why people work places till they acquire more knowledge or learn new things and then move on to a new place that will actually pay them for it.

Sure its nice to get to show how clever you are and that you can learn new tricks on your own. Sure its nice to work easier getting a job done. Sure they MIGHT recall your efforts and output in your review. All depends on the management of the job taking the time to realize who did what and the impact it created. Some places may reward this but others will not and from my experience of late the people who do and say nothing to improve a job and just work like drones usually get dragged along given the same pay increases and even promotions as those that are outspoken and work to come up with time/money saving ideas. All depends on the employer I guess, it shouldn't take long to determine which kind you work for.

Hi Bowman, a bit like peeing in a dark suit, you get a nice warm feeling but nobody notices.
Thats why we get someone with twenty years experiance who knows a bit, and can get round most job problems quickly.
Ian

Hi thkoutside, have a think for a while, this was a real problem and the solution was viewed with disbelief at the time.
Ian.

Throw that single component in the bin and drill the 1/2" hole from the co-ordinate point instead of from the center for the remaining hundreds...obviousy! :D Ok I know its not 'that' simple. Did some genius drill the holes in all the components in the center of the boss or just that one?....Now that was a bit silly wasnt it!! :)

Hi, the bosses were made with the hole in to "assist in drilling and reaming", but as they were ALL off centre, after welding, it caused a huge problem.
For some reason although the problem was known, nothing was done about it and it was only after a huge pile of the components had been machined and checked that the extent of the run-out was discovered.
The horizontal borer was a Kearns and had a spindle in the centre of the facing chuck to allow drilling and such operations instead of running the table in to the chuck.
The tool I made was a short stubby taper shank drill about 5/8" diam and 2" long with the end ground in towards the centre instead of with a point.
This resulted in a trepanning action as the two outer cutting edges contacted the boss face first and started cutting in new metal and so the off centre hole was cut away.
Once the cutting edges cut into the metal a circle is formed and as a drill does not cut on it's sides the circle guides the drill in all the way.
The spindle is used right back at the chuck face and the table is brought up to it to reduce any spring that the tool might get from the spindle deflection.
The component was a part of the torpedo loading mechanism that pushed the torpedoes into the chamber on atom subs in the UK in the early 70's.
Nothing is simple or straight forward in engineering.
Someone once said,"The universal aptitude of ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle", I believe it was an American airforce doctor, Colonel John Stapp, and is called Stapp's ironical paradox, or the law of unintended consequences.
I think Murphy's law comes into play here, Which states that 'If it can go wrong it will go wrong'.
Ian.

O'Toole's corrolary to Murphy's Law:

Murphy was an optimist.

I got my start in mach. as a manual machinist from a man that had been diagnosed with Cancer, Pat Hook, God rest his soul. He wanted to pass on his knowledge I studied at home at nite and was tested in the mourning. The man taught me to never let them compromise your workmanship. If I could find someone that wanted to learn I would pass it on, nobody wants to lean.

Dear Sir
First we have to understand what is knowledge? Now let us take example of CNC router. on industrial side there are excelent routers are manufactured and are in use. they have excellent knowledge & we dont want to steal it. we are hobbists and want to make such machines at our home workshops. there is no secrets in it. this is no new invention which every body is fighting as secret. if any experiment you had done in this pl. keep it in your pocket. no body knows it & want it.
if you had invented some new thing which is not designed & made on this planet, certainly the inventor must get its prize & world had already giving such recognition with lot of money.
as far as this CNC Zone is concerned, nothing is new, all big manufacturers knows all problems & parameters, but as hobbists we dont know it, that is why i think CNC Zone is. if we are not professional we must shre every thing to reduce our fatigue in experimenting.
thanks

Hi RPM, I quite sympathise with those people who have had experiances like you mention.
I don't think you personally are the rear bit that breathes in a hoarse voice and has halitosis big time, just noting that some people are as I said.
Up untill the mid 90's we had a strong union movement and closed shop policies in OZ, then the government got legislation passed to ban closed shops and the rest is history.
This was designed to loosen up the trade barriers and make us more competitive in the world market place.
The practices that you describe of dog eat dog only weakens the industry, and like a body that has been abused for years, is no match for even a third world country that simply floods your market with it's goods and because the price is low, eliminates the competition and installs itself as your chief supplier.
I once read on this forum about some employers "desperately" trying to keep the doors open for one more day by cutting corners and conditions.
Everyone sympathised with them.
****e, it's arrrshls like these that dredge the dregs to get cost down.
I worked in South Africa for a small firm in the early 60's, and it was a real dump.
The big difference was there was a big shortage of skilled labour and you could virtually walk out of a job at midday, look in the local paper adds and start a job that afternoon.
In those days we didn't have "made in China" or India or any other foreign country flooding the market.
"Made in Japan" was a synonym for Cheap and nasty and only a fool bought this way.
The big names were "made in Great Britain", "Made in USA", or if you were really serious and only bought the best then it was "MADE IN GERMANY" Ja?
All my tools when I came out of my time were Stahlwille, Bluepoint, Roebuck, Rabone Chesterman, Moore & wright, Shardlow etc etc.
Never heard of a japanese tool manufacturer then.
When it comes to pointing the finger the buck stops at the door of the government in power.
If they don't have a strict import control policy to protect jobs, then you'll be competing against third world countries, who are funded by the outsourcers from your own country, and will get beaten down for price every time.
Before I retired a couple of years ago, the firm I then worked for sent a delegation of middle management to Taiwan to view a pending contract negotiation.
It was an eye opening experiance in workplace practice, of how people willingly embraced technology, and as the products being produced were destined for the West, so they had their shoulders firmly to the wheel.
In one situation, a little old lady of very mature years was working a CNC turning centre and her daughter was loading 3/4" brass bars into the bar feeder.
The "factory" was a room in a house in one of the villages with a dirt floor.
By their standards they were well paid, better than the land workers next door.
Our living standards are too high to expect to work for low wages, so we must adapt and think more and act less.
The days of living by the sweat of your brow are long gone and those that want to live that way had better get a liking for peanuts.
The point is if you want a life of affluence then you had better have an infrastructure to support it, and getting $5 an hour less than someone with nothing better to do than take second best, is not the way to go.
I can't imagine why people would want to get into a dying industry, when the only prospects are to get as little money as the boss can squeeze you for.
If you really want to make money, find something that you can sell for 50 cents, make a million of them, then get someone else to make them for you and you have just discovered the first rule of life.
Moral:- Be clever, be happy, let someone else do the hard work.
Ian.

There were great inventers in past who had served the man kind by finding medisons for various dieses. now they had died, and after hundreds of years their now a days generation is still holding the patent rights. they had nothing done in this but earning money. what is this?

I'm the only person at my place that does Diamond Machining. I do it quite well... in fact so well that orders are ramping up to the point where i got so much work that I come in early, leave late and work through lunch... aint had a holiday (including Xmas) since October last year.

My boss wants me to train someone up. M & G Code programming for CNC turning, ACAD design, QA measurement on Talysurf etc etc.

My question is... would you lot do it for nothing? or am I just being selfish?

Cheers.

Iain.


Personally, if the company I worked for wanted me to train someone to do a job that I was the only one that knew how to do, I would have to say yes.

If I was coming in early, staying over, working through lunch, and working holidays: Why wouldn't I want someone else to know how to do it? It would be a load off of my back. I will ALWAYS take my family and own personal time over being a slave to the company. The company would be paying my wage while I was teaching them, so I wouldn't be able to say I'm doing it for "free". In my opinion the possibility of being able to relax knowing I had "backup" would be payment enough.

As for the response option of "only if I taught it wrong", I view my work as a reflection of myself. If I were to knowledgeably teach someone wrong and they hurt a machine, themselves, or someone else; when they say "that's how I was taught" I don't think it would project a very good image of me. I expect the highest quality out of myself and anyone I may potentially pass what I know on to. I would think that is more selfish than worrying about whether or not I'm getting paid extra for teaching them.

We all learned some things from other people.

So how could you charge for what was given to you?

I started as a simple opperator, and asked tons of questions, 8 yrs later I am stuck in the office as an engineer!!

Don't ask if you don't want to know.

I had the one guy in my shop that wants to learn ask me about how to use the grinder to sharpen punches, I was busy as h** , but I stopped what I was doing and did the best I could to help him. my work suffered but he wants to learn, so it was OK.

There are two camps on this:

1) Knowlege is hard-earned, it is a limited resource and it has monetary value. Never pass on what you know without compensation.

2) Knowlege is a special gift, it is unlimited because others add to what you contribute (just like you stood on someone else's shoulders to learn what you know) and your payment is the pleasure when someone now learns from you.

It's all about the pie. If you believe the pie is fixed in size, then you believe someone else having a slice takes away from your portion. If you believe the pie grows as peolpe contribute, then your portion gets bigger too no matter how many feast from it.

Pessimists versus optimists.

Mariss

Hi all, I was always under the impression that if someone went out of their way to ensure that you gained valuable knowledge that would benefit you for the rest of your life and it was supplied free, not only free but they paid you while it was being imparted to you, then they must be expecting to get something back in return for the investment.
This does not appear to be the case.
I served a five year apprenticeship as a fitter and turner, and as soon as the five years were up I had to leave to get "outside" experiance.
I was given the assurance that I could reapply for a job after a minimum of six months away.
The majority of firms send the new men out into the world, to sharpen their skills, and there is no stipulation that they must return to give back something that they have been given.
At the same time the older guys were only too happy to "educate" the new guys on the block and demonstrate how good they were.
At no time was there ever a thought that if you told a new guy how to overcome a problem he'd get your job.
From what I've read in these posts, the job scene is moving from the skilled manual worker to the complex automated computerised type of manufacture.
This is now calling for a different breed of worker.
CNC is all about set-up to mass produce by the accuracy of the computer guided machine, where the knowledge, once stored on a chip, can be repeated forever mechanically, and served by a person who is required to press the red button when the green light flashes.
We now enter the deep dark world of the computer orientated person, who is taking over the industry.
The knowledge gained in this environment is jealously guarded, because it is now worth money and status to the "in crowd".
The atmosphere at the top of this ladder is indeed rarified, and only breathed deeply by those who are fully equipt and qualified to do so.
We are now back to the time of the guilds where you had to be a guild member to work in certain trades, and trade secrets were very jealously guarded.
So what has changed? Will you pass on your hard won job expertise?
Ian.

...CNC is all about set-up to mass produce by the accuracy of the computer guided machine, where the knowledge, once stored on a chip, can be repeated forever mechanically, and served by a person who is required to press the red button when the green light flashes.
We now enter the deep dark world of the computer orientated person, who is taking over the industry...Ian.

Ian, you are retired with all the time in the world? Pick up a copy of 'Player Piano' by Kurt Vonnegut. You will need a lot of time to read it because the going is heavy but you might find it interesting.

Hi Geof, yep been retired since 2002. I'll have a look for that book at our library. Got me guessing.
I don't do much reading nowadays, too hard on the eyes to expand the small type, also too busy on the computer checking up on what the industry is up to.
I've got a mate in Canada, just moved from Ontario to Vancoooooover, to get away from the snow.
Think of me at the moment, we've got 34 Deg C, beautiful!
I left Pommyland to get away from the rain in 1981....Great! Dryazabone here.
Just as a matter of curiosity, before I go searching, what's in the book?
Ian.

...Just as a matter of curiosity, before I go searching, what's in the book? Ian.

It is a technological society where all the machines have been automated by downloading the information from skilled tradesmen. Something gets scrambled and now they have to find the world's last remaining machinist to copy his brain. Or something like that. Get yourself a big magnifying glass.

Where do you get this "free training"? There is no such thing as a free lunch here in the states. Every class I took to get through my apprenticeship and every class since then I paid for out of my pocket. As for the employer wanting to get something back; they get to pay you substantially less to learn and the US government picks up fifty percent of that tab under the job training and partnership act. Have a good one!

Hi Geof, thanks for the info, just had a stickybeak on the 'net and read a few articals about Kurt von' and the books he's writen. Seems like a bloke with a bit of imagination.
I saw the film Slaughterhouse Five some time back, very eye opening what they went through.

RPM, man but that's really paying for your oportunities.
When I was an 'appy in the late 50's, we went to night school two evenings a week for two hours each, and four hours on Saturday morning, which we got paid for as it was a normal working shift back then, (44 hour week).
That was on the De Beers diamond mines in South West Africa, at Oranjemund.
They really looked after the employees, and that's a long story, so I won't bore you all.
Ian.

...When I was an 'appy in the late 50's, we went to night school two evenings a week for two hours each, and four hours on Saturday morning, which we got paid for as it was a normal working shift back then, (44 hour week)....Ian.

Yes but your apprentice rate was probably 25% of journeyman to start going up every six months to a maximum of 67% of journeyman. Now with govt and union interference an employer has to pay more like 60 - 75% to a starting apprentice. And the govt subsidy is not always available.

I am still in confusion that what is knowledge?
If you know somthing which i donot, does it means that you have more knowledge than me?
If you born in developed country & I in poor country, you have all information & i dont have, does it means that you are more inteligent?

I am still in confusion that what is knowledge? If you know somthing which i donot, does it means that you have more knowledge than me?

Not always; it means that I have different knowledge.

If you born in developed country & I in poor country, you have all information & i dont have, does it means that you are more inteligent?

No, intelligence and knowledge are different but for intelligence to be any use you need knowledge and for knowledge to be any use you need intelligence. I know that sounds like I am talking in circles but I can't think of any other way to say it.

Intelligence is how you seek out knowledge and use knowledge. You can have two people with exactly the same opportunity to learn things and use the knowledge they gain. One may pay attention and listen, keep their eyes open and observe and then they will think about what they are learning and they will use what they learn. The other may not do these things so they will not get the same knowledge. To me the first person, who does obtain and use knowledge, is more intelligent.

Hi Sanjiv, knowledge is when you have the means to make an atomic bomb, and intelligence is deciding whether or not to use it.
Everything else is relative. Man has the knowledge to create fire, but animals have the intelligence to know that you will get burned.
Ian.

Hi Geof, Now that would be going back a bit, I guess I was spoiled by living at home and paying into the houshold budget.
I certainly learned what money was worth when I finished my time and went out into the real world.
Ian.

hey fellow machinists.

I recently made this choice that involved me not giving out information. My title was production Processor at the local shop, and my job was to innovate everything. My ideas were held to the highest, and better than %80 of the time used. I've only had 7 experience, and was brought into a sought after position.
I admit a little envouis, and green with envy of the Plant manager that he was the face of the company, "and not I," decided not to pass on crucial workholding advice. I instead asked for the Owners, and asked for a bonus in lue of the next idea.
What a stroke of genius. You can be brilliant, they'll gamble on stupidity, and fish in the shallow end of the talent pool in search of the next Westinghouse.
I've realized my shortcommings. Being 26 and wanting to set the world on fire is tough.

Hi Geof, Now that would be going back a bit, I guess I was spoiled by living at home and paying into the houshold budget.
I certainly learned what money was worth when I finished my time and went out into the real world.
Ian.

Four pounds four shillings and eight pence was my first pay packet. However, I had a good boss. I was doing Fitting, Turning and Toolmaking and in my third year was put onto setting up big Herbert turret lathes for the operators and training them. I balked at teaching stuff to guys getting paid more than me so they put me on journeyman rate from the first half of my third year. I was a cocky little eighteen year old back then.

Depends on how close to death I was.

LOL, I never thought of it that way!!

Hi Geof, any guy who has his destiny mapped out to spend his days cranking a Herbert has my deepest sympathy.
I would bend over backward to make their day a bit easier.
To do a repetition job day after day is tamtamount to sweeping leaves on a windy day.
Several years ago I had a one man business doing sub-contract and I bought an old 1-1/4" capstan lathe to speed up the small 500-1000 batch loads I was doing.
I was setter operator, and anything over 1000 parts was a bore.
The lathe was purely manual, no feeds, and all the tooling was HSS hand ground, including the tools for the roller boxes, without a tool & cutter grinder.
I enjoyed the small batch runs, but 10 hours was enough to blunt the enthusiasm.
I spent most of my working life on machinery,and still do at home, but the thought of having to crank away day after day on a repetition job would really pee me off.
I don't think money comes into it really.
In my fourth year a'ppyship I helped a guy who tried to run a lathe for three days with the tool 1/4" above centre.
He got the job because he had ten years experiance selling carbide tooling.
Never worked a lathe before and vaguely knew the basic fundamentals of turning.
When I left at the end of my time, he was at least producing work and had a job to come home from.
Ian.

How did i gain my knowledge of machining, did i not get paid to learn it? Yep and so as With everything that interest me i continue to look for new things to learn, hence i found this forum.
I have become the go to guy in the shop, at times i do resent it but at othertimes whats it all about anyway but to give back what i was givin. I always take the time and work with the other guys to find the best soulution to whatever job it is. Nope i dont have all the answers either just know our product realy well. I still go to the senior man for questions on fixturing and such as he has still no matter how long i been there got alot more experiance doing it, although he is a manual knee mill operator and i set up and run mazak T1, Fanuc, Haas, Mills and now with the newest to us machine a Japax 4 axes EDM. He still is always willing to hand down what he knows as i hand off what i learn.

Just another chip in the plie.

aaron

My philosophy is this: If I train someone else to do my job, I can do a different job for more money and less time.....you will always be ahead of an apprentice and your investment in him will be a reflection of your skill.

Yes indeed I will pass info to others, in fact I was planning to put together a small write up about my experience with my first CNC machine, I am also willing to share my autocad drwaings for a poor mans CNC machine (It depends how would you classify a poor man :rolleyes:).

I found this site very helpfull, full of helpfull souls that are willing to help a person like me that they do not even know. :wee:

I am very thankfull to all of you guys for the invaluable advice that was given 2 me, advise that I would have not been able to finish my project without them. :wave:

I started as an apprentice 25 years ago in a 10 man shop and was a sponge for everything i seen and heard. The old timers there gave me their insights and tricks and didnt have a need to "protect" their positions because they were established and respected by the employer. I did the same with the apprentices that followed me and ended up running the whole shebang in the end. If I didnt train someone to do my job as well as myself...i'd still be crankin the handwheel eatin hot chips , thinking i was irreplaceable.
On the other side of the coin, the kung-fu masters of past used to teach their moves to the avid students minus a few "special" tricks of the trade....lest one day they get the crud kicked out of em.

Four pounds four shillings and eight pence was my first pay packet. However, I had a good boss. I was doing Fitting, Turning and Toolmaking and in my third year was put onto setting up big Herbert turret lathes for the operators and training them. I balked at teaching stuff to guys getting paid more than me so they put me on journeyman rate from the first half of my third year. I was a cocky little eighteen year old back then.

Lucky Lad, two pound eight and nine, traveled away from home, digs, two pound twelve, train fare, bus fare's to the Tech, two nights a week, ahhhh! The Good old Days! :cheers: Les H.

I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion but, I live my life with the guidence of a few axioms. One of them states," nothing can be known but for the grace of God"
IF one follows this statement you then relize that the knowlage you have gained is not yours to hoard or withold but, should be given freely when asked for.
Having said this, let me also say that no one should let them selvs be taken advantage of.
There must be some aimeable solution to your dilema. Follow your hart not your wallet or your pride.
Consider Iain, how much "free" knowlage you have given away on this web site alone.

Teach The Guy!

Passing on knowledge is one of the most self gratifying things you can do. Someone somewhere sometime held your hand for that first run at your trade. None of us were born with what we know. MOST of what any of us know, we gained from someone else. ... Teach the guy and be proud of his work.

Many years ago, I helped a Vietnamese guy that could hardly speak a word of english run a mill. He was a blank piece of paper! Frankly, after 9 months or so of calls & e-mails, I got really tired of helping. Then the calls and e-mails quit. I never heard a word for about another 9 months or so. Then a call. It was this guy.... screaming in the phone.... Go to my site and see what I did! You taught me! You Taught me! I went to the site and there was some of the finest work I have ever seen! When we ended the conversation I just sit here in this same chair.... Smiling inside. And I'm still smiling! ;-)

In my opinion I already have had problems about it, these selfish people who does not want to share his knowledges and experience. I am an engineer, and they believe, that because I'm an engineer I must know everything but they don't understand, that what I'm looking for is the experience that machinists have.

Sorry about my english!!
I live like 80 miles near to the Tijuana border
Also I'm looking for a job in the CNC area I work about one year in a Kent CNC Mill doing the programs and the set up to do the pieces with Mastercam V9. I want to learn more about mastercam but here in Mexico there is not so much work in this area as in California.
mi mail is: victorh_ruizm@hotmail.com
Thank's
Sincerely: Victor Ruiz

For now maybe there are more jobs. Just give us another 5-10 years and we will make sure all those remaining jobs will be overseas as well. Ain't global economics grand!

Well fellas, take heart from the old days, my grand father was a Hansom Cab lamp fitter, now there's a job that needed protecting wouldn't you say?
Sometimes you just have to go with the times, as unpleasant as it is.
You wouldn't find a farmer trying to sow seed on stony ground when the top soil had blown away, would you?
So why stick around where you can't make a buck or two?
Times they is a' changing, and it's in our time.
Well you can forget that old wive's tale right now.
I left UK in 1981 when there was a depression on, a bit worldwide if I remember.
At the time there were skilled engineering workers in the North of UK, aged 40 and more, that were told "you will never work again", no work.
I was one of the last batch of skilled engineering migrants to OZ, and one of the requirements was we had to have our tool box with tools with us on the plane to be able to start work immediately on landing.
Took me six weeks to find a job, but I was never on the dole.
Only time I went on the dole was when I was retrenched at age 60, and after searching for a technician's job, (fat chance at 60), I went back to the bench as a fitter and turner, but who employs a 60 year old fitter and turner?
After searching for months and dozens of interviews, I got a part time, mornings only, coupla' days a week job as a welder/fitter/turner, with a welder chappie, who wanted someone to help him out with a rush of work.
Initially it was to be for a few hours a week on odd mornings but ended as five mornings continuous, at top wage per hour.
Then the Department of social security office, who handles the out of workers and job seekers, sent me a letter to inform me that I didn't have to look for work anymore, as the job expectation statistics showed that only 5% of job seekers in my age group, (60+) were were lucky to get even an odd job.
What's more I was now being moved from the files of the unemployed to the mature age pension group, and would qualify for a state pension as such untill I reached age 65 when I would be fully retired with all the benefits that were due.
As I was doing mornings only and earning twice the pension rate, I didn't get or need the pension, and this went on till family problems rose and I retired at 64.
I think in this day and age it has been said that the expectation of a full employment is a past dream.
Well this may apply in some areas, If you can't move to find the work then diversify and do the work that is available.
One of my friends has three jobs and fills in his time between them from office cleaning to local delivery and tutoring.
He now has 4 other guys and a woman working with him, as a team, doing the office cleaning, and is going into window cleaning in shopping centres.
You just can't keep a good man down.
And it all started because his boss told him he would have to work weekends just to keep his job, he didn't.
Ian.

If I didnt train someone to do my job as well as myself...i'd still be crankin the handwheel eatin hot chips , thinking i was irreplaceable.

In the twenty seven years I have worked as a machinist I have helped train a small army of potential candidates who hoped to learn the trade. Some have had the capacity to understand the complexity of what is involved but most could never be justified in calling themselves a machinist, they just couldn't get it. I have worked with thirty year veterans of machine shop employment that will never be machinist. They aren't mentally deficient their brains just weren't wired the same as ours. I have never trained my replacement no matter how hard I tried. I have shared knowledge willingly and it always gave me great satisfaction when I found one that "got it" and excelled in the trade. I currently am called "coach" by my latest project and he has the potential to become a first class machinist.

My present position involves product design, cad-cam programming, training machine operators, troubleshooting tooling, fixture and machine related issues as well as purchasing tooling and maintenance supplies.
Recently a new "Lead Man" was brought in to take over my previous additional responsibilities of chasing work orders and expediting product flow from and material acquisition to finished product. I gladly surrendered all knowledge I possessed on every aspect of that responsibility and was delighted not to be burdened with that title and all the B.S. that it involved.

Soon after this transition I was asked in the presence of the owner of the company what my job objectives entailed since I was no longer "Lead Man" and my reponse was this.

At the point and time I can get sufficient people trained so that my presence is no longer required in order for product to flow seamlessly through the manufacturing process I will consider that I have been successful at what I was initially hired for, to set up a self sustained cnc machine tool operation for the company and ultimately render my position obsolete.
That was over two years ago and try as I may I still have not been successful. You can not teach experience.

yep, have to agree with cutsall, it is frustrating trying to teach people at times. I always try and show our workers how to do jobs, most are just unskilled or casual workers, and it is rewarding when someone is interested enough to listen and then show they understood what you meant. For me the greatest reward is to be told "thanks for showing me that". It also means one less job for me to do, and that is the aim for me.

I'll gladly show anyone with enough enthusiasm and interest how something is done.

Once!

Many thanks for the replies... keep em comming.

I can clear up one point. My 20 years of optical knowledge was not gained at this job- I've only been here for 6 months. I gained it at various companies- Barr & Stroud, Atomic Weapons Research Est, British Aerospace and MBDA Missile System to name a few.

I can see both sides and am all mixed up... dunno what to do.

Iain

From what you say it seems that opening your own business looks like a good idea. Of course it will be challenging. The fact that you learnt a lot can mean nothing if you don't know how to get clients and sell your services. This is what i am facing now.

Chris.
--------------
cnc machine shop (http://www.acmanufacturing.com)

Hi, as unpleasant as it may sound, when you work with a semi trained work force that have not been through the trade system, i.e. an apprenticeship, it is a bit like water off of a ducks back when you try to instill basic skills.
By this I mean that unless you started at the beginning and learned ALL the basic disciplines, then trying to pick someone else's brains to make up the shortfall is like saying, " I'm doing it because he does it that way, but I don't know why".
I have always worked with people of my own "breed", that is time served veterans who have taken the trouble and low wages to get in a the beginning and learn the trade properly.
I can quite honestly say that I despise someone who tries to get in at the top, and pesters you to get the knowledge that you have learned by years of experiance.
As a general rule a man of 20 years experiance will look down on a man who has just finished his time, and although will show him a few tricks, will still maintain that aloofness that a skilled person has that sets him/her apart from the scruff.
Most of the old guard that I was fortunate to rub shoulders with always maintained the strict pecking order of seniority, and it was only by observing this platform that you become one of them eventually.
You have to win your spurs if you want to be taken seriously, much like the old marine and the new recruit.
Which brings me back to the topic of this thread, if someone came to me with a problem I would fill them in with the gaps in their knowledge, but as for a complete training session in two seconds flat, forget it, I just wouldn't be interested, unless they were going through the system from the bottom of the ladder.
Ian.

In the good old USA, formal apprenticeships are basically non-existent. The ones that do exist are an real joke.

i find it enjoyable when , i can see the enthusiasm in an apprentices eyes when i explain the works to them, i can look at them and see they have what it takes ,
EARS !!!!

You not training for free...your being paid to be there and do as your boss instructs. Hence hes instructing you to do something different.

I agree with the comment that a little more $$ should be expected as you are taking on additional work.

I was always under the impression that you get paid to do 8 hours work, or whatever the slave master dictates, no matter what you are employed to do.
Ian.

I can imagine that in this day and age it would not take five years for a formal apprenticeship to push the green button when the red light flashes.
This is of course the new way engineering, as opposed to the old school engineering when it was done by the sweat of man, and took five years to learn all the oddities of the file, scraper, hammer and crank handles.
Like all things, nothing stays the same, and the more things change the more changes will become dominant untill the wheel turns full circle and we embrace a brave new world, just as my father did and his father before him.
Otherwise we would still be listening to big bands on AM mono valve radios, and winding up record players to get a bit of entertainment.
Moral:- Don't do as I do, do as I tell you.
Ian.

I can imagine that in this day and age it would not take five years for a formal apprenticeship to push the green button when the red light flashes....

I think your perception is not entirely correct here. There was a lot taught in the old style apprenticeships that is still valid: Fixturing, procedure sequencing, properties of materials, actually how a cutting tool works, and a whole pile of other stuff.

These days there is a lot of stuff in addition such as CAD/CAM, basic electrical/electronic theory, knowledge of coatings, and other stuff.

I think the five years are still necessary but one big change could be that two of them are spent in a serious academic environment getting all the deep book learning. Sure you can fumble through learning it yourself in a few weeks and figure out how to make the machine do something when you push the green button. However, it is clear from many questions that are posted on CNCzone that a lot of people who might call themselves CNC machinists have only a very cursory knowledge of the field.

I believe Geof states it well. The original question was "Would you pass your knowledge on for free?" Is that not what we're doing here?

Seeryus akerdemik 'viroment, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Back in Uk when I was last there in the 80's we had a term for some of the older workers that didn't have formal appy training but just worked up from machine to machine, usally starting with a radial arm drill and progressing onto Herbert capstans etc.
This was known as " Coming in on the broom", a most derogeratory term but it described someone that swept the floor as a labourer and decided to further their career into machining.
Sorry to say but I had the utmost contempt for this type as they often tried to put one over you, and frequently resorted to hiding up botched up work.
It was not without good reason that the other skilled workers resorted to putting secret marks on their work to identify any work that failed inspection, due to having unfair accusations leveled at them.
I will admit that I have made mistakes on some job or other but I've never hidden it up or blamed it on someone else.
How can you hide up a reamed hole that has gone oversize?
The attitude of some was as long as the inspector didn't pick it then who cares.
Lack of basic engineering theory left them unable to comprehend the physics of metal working and frequently meant damaged tools.
I would distance myself from these types, as they never amounted to much and never really understood what you were talking about anyway.
Ian.

Seeryus akerdemik 'viroment, I think you've hit the nail on the head....frequently resorted to hiding up botched up work.
It was not without good reason that the other skilled workers resorted to putting secret marks on their work to identify any work that failed inspection, due to having unfair accusations leveled at them.
I will admit that I have made mistakes on some job or other but I've never hidden it up or blamed it on someone else....

A bit off topic but WTH. This reminds me of the first place I worked in Canada. My papers called me a Fitter and Turner so they put me on building abig conveyor system; do all the shafts, sprockets, pulleys, etc, then move into the Fitting Shop, drill the frames, mount all the bearings, motors, etc and get the thing running.

I was working afternoon shift because I was in college at the time and came in one afternoon to face a firing squad. I had drilled every hole wrong in this huge frame, nothing would go together correctly; the engineer had found it when he came down to inspect progress. It was difficult to deny, my holes where in a different place to the prints.

I said bull****, walked over to my locked toolbox and pull out my copy of the prints showing the holes in my locations. The a**hole of an engineer had come in at night, collected all the print copies he could find, corrected his mistake and put the corrected prints were he had found the others.

He was lucky I never encountered him at night on a secluded street.

I think your perception is not entirely correct here. There was a lot taught in the old style apprenticeships that is still valid: Fixturing, procedure sequencing, properties of materials, actually how a cutting tool works, and a whole pile of other stuff.

These days there is a lot of stuff in addition such as CAD/CAM, basic electrical/electronic theory, knowledge of coatings, and other stuff.

I think the five years are still necessary but one big change could be that two of them are spent in a serious academic environment getting all the deep book learning. Sure you can fumble through learning it yourself in a few weeks and figure out how to make the machine do something when you push the green button. However, it is clear from many questions that are posted on CNCzone that a lot of people who might call themselves CNC machinists have only a very cursory knowledge of the field.

i agree

this is a forever learning trade ,
much of the same thought goes into fixturing and tooling as always , generally more thought goes into it with cnc , and math skills are as necessary as they ever were
there is far too much of a misconception that a guy puts a piece of material in the magical metal box presses the lil green button and presto a prefect part , nothing hard about that

Here's my take on this one, I worked 10yrs as pretty much the only programmer at this place. Then one day they hired this new plant manager who informed me I was to teach a new guy everything I do and know. Well I didn't have a problem if they brought someone who was going to school to program, but I informed him that I wasn't hired in to be a shop class teacher for someone who never ran a machine. This was the beginning of the end for me and that job, He told me my that my attitude sux and went out of his way to make me miserable untill I quit!
The icing on the cake is that I actually ended up making more money and doing more interesting work.....so the guy did me a favor even though he was an a--hole!

this is mine!
this is my idea!
this has been created by me!
Please sirs
pl. tell me, what is the thing which escapes from body at the time of death.
who had invented wheel, the gretest invention of universe?

Sanjiv, wot the h##ll have you been smoking ole chap? we agree it's your idea, and concede that it's yours entirely, and give you the benefit of the doubt that in the world of creativity you are formost, but when you veer into the orbit of the supernatural and transcendental occurances as regards the moment of a demise, then unless you've actually been there, or beyond, you'll never know.
I would hazard a guess that the last gasp is the thing that gets out when you kark it.
As far as the greatest invention of all time being the wheel is concerned, have you ever thought about that dangly thing that you hold onto when you have a pee, without it we would all be f###ked!
WHAT? off topic? sorry,
the pills are wearing off,
back to sharing knowledge, to coin a phrase, "never before in the world of human endeavour was so much explained to so many by so few".
How true, and if you've ever had a teaching position then you'll know that you can only show the way, whether or not others will follow is academic, but you get a warm glow knowing that some budding genius just wanted a nudge in the right direction to get started.
I think my father faced that moment of decision when I clamped his 0-1" micrometer onto a piece of steel and proceeded to measure the gap with a ruler, he explained that a micrometer is not a G clamp, and showed me the wonders of significent markings on the barrel to mean something.
I went on to become a genius in my own right, acknowledged by my fellow humans to be definately on another planet.
Ian.

Helping or business,, Help to someone means to teach all that you know, but business means to have this balance formula:
Your Time + Your ability = Your Pay + Your needs

Hi all, actually, what it really means is we're too dammed lazy to do the job ourselves, and if you tell someone else how to do it....problem solved!
In my previous employ, I was forever pestered by an individual who although in a senior position was not very mechanically endowed, or so he made out.
I would go to great lengths to explain how a task could be performed, and as I had been through the mill of life and learned accordingly, so I expected others to do the same.
In practically every place I have worked, it was always the person in a senior position that was approached if you wanted to get the griff.
This is how it should be, the person in charge should be the brains of the show, but this is not always the case, which doesn't say much for the managerial preference to use a person for what he/she knows in a production environment, and put someone in charge who only has people skills.
In this situation I refuse to be a trainer, either verbally or by a hands on approach, as I'm only employed to do the work, not give away my expertise and native cunning.
It's a different matter when you have someone who is in training, who is assigned to assist you and in the process gains knowledge of the work to eventually be an integral part of the workforce.
When it comes to your work mates, then you bend over backwards to help one another with a problem, but they have to earn the title of mates before you allow them access to your hard won knowledge.
Ian.

I was very lucky to be trained by 5 very good older guys. They trained me because they thought it was important to pass on the skills that were taught to them. They did not fear that someone would take their jobs because they knew that it would take along time for me to get to their level of skill.
I think that if you can teach someone else your skills then you have repaid the people that taught you. More money would be nice but that's not the point as far as I'm concerned.

I have been asked to pass on the skills here at work, but my problem is i would love to teach but the person they want me to teach is some person that dosent listen and dose things with out asking and just all around have a bad gut feeling about the guy.

As far as teaching others, it is great to watch someone learn and see the skills your are giving them grow.

It is actually in my job description to train new operators! When we get a new operator, I let them train on the machine for a couple of months to get a good idea of the machine. After that, I bring them in for some basic programming training of their specific machine. (I program 7 different machine types, 21 machines total.) Of course I just teach them the basics, just enough to get by and not bug me all day long to troubleshoot. Funny thing is, operators are told not to touch the program, but I still need to train them? (...scratches head)

One Of My Trainer Said Me" If You Wana Stay At The Same Post Then U Might Not Train Anybody But If U Wana Go High And Urs Eyes At The Sky Then U Must Train"

Well, this thread started one and a half year ago,
I read the whole thing, now is my turn to talk... even if I have nothing new to say.

I think that if you and your decades of experience can be replaced by a new young guy who just finished school last week, then you deserve to lose your job: Laws of nature, old weak lion is displaced by younger, stronger lion.

If you want to avoid that destiny, then you have to "remain young", you must to aquire new knowledge day after day so you remain being the stronger, unbeatable cat regardless of what knowledge and tricks you pass on to the newbies like me... we will never reach your level if you are always one step in front of us.

Now, you have to teach. If not, then probably you are selfish and perhaps you will be treated as such:
There was this guy in my last job, who knew all tricks to have the old-as-hell mills working (used only to make flats and screwdriver slots on electric motor shafts). He never let anybody stay near him while fixing and adjusting the machines, so he could keep his "secrets" safe.
On our side of view (engineering dept) it was inaceptable that the universe orbited around one guy.
Solution? We got rid of those mechanical mills, put some e-bay's VMCs (old & cheap CNC). Now the operator just have to change some offsets once in a while.

What happened to our guy? Suddenly he become "obsolete" and worst... he couldn't find anyone willing to teach HIM the "new tech".

Here, in Mexico we have a long tradition of "keeping the bussiness secrets safe". But its really sad when I saw that the big secrets of the local shops are the basic knowledge you can get in highschool of any developed country (simple trigonometry, how to calculate rpm given sfm, use of G41 for tool radius comp, stuff like that).

So is no wonder that if we can't do even a simple mold or die then there's a long, long way until we can dream about machining (forget designing) turbines for jet engines.

We are a rich on resources, poor minded country who doesn't look at the future, we don't teach the boys, we don't invest in research and development, we don't read, we don't write. We don't do a lot of things. What we do is to tackle down the smart ingenous guy who tries to break the vicious circle, and yes... we do blame the goverment for everything.

I say Yes, share your knowledge for free and get some too for you.
You'll be sharing, not giving. As the people at MIT Open CourseWare said, they can put online all their classes and material but, to get a real MIT experience you have to be there, you have to "live it".

Now, who wants a beer? :)

Cheers:
Everardo

The skills I have I'm generous with ... if you want my time, THAT costs money.

This is an on going practice that I have been involved in for many years and have taught numerous people machining.
During this time I have had those that really have appreciated it and those that all of a sudden they knew more then the teacher until they came into another tasked that stumped them, it is only those that I choose to no longer assist.
As with machining it is the foundation that will determine if you are able to successfully produce parts in a timely fashion, short cuts also cuts you short and this is the hardest thing I find to teach is not to take the short cut.
Stress the basics as when I am approached to fix a problem part the problem will be found in the basics.

I am new the the CNC milling scene but have always taught others with other skills. I joined this site to soak up information like a sponge and to let this brand new CNC make our company some money.

:)

At work i share knowledge with anyone that asks and wants to learn.
It won't do me any good when i die,no sense taking it with me.

Many people over the years have passed on their knowledge to me and I am still learning from other people. If we don't pass on our knowledge, then it will be lost. I feel it is our duty and our pleasure to teach others so that we and they can be more productive. Most of our knowledge has been gained while being paid by someone else.

...what you should not always give away is experience, and ironically, common sense. They are a commodity that you give as a gift to friends and sell to a client for a fee.

Another way of saying it is:
You give information for free, and charge for telling them how to use it.

That's how I make my living.

The funny thing is, that in some rare cases, it's hard to tell the two apart.

I am only 44 and I still (GOD WILLING) have a few more years left. Where I work now I find it pleasing to teach my fellow mechanics the skills I have picked up over the years, especially the electronic/electrical skills that they seem to lack. If all I teach them is to not get hurt and call somebody in when it is beyond your skill set, then I am doing my job. I will teach anybody who shows the proper respect and is willing to learn. The one thing that I can't stand is the know it all who asks for help all the time and then runs his mouth about how bad you are. He doesn't get a second chance.

My oldest son (20) shocked me the other day and asked me to teach him how to weld. He then stated that he regreted not watching what I was doing when he was younger. After I got up off the floor I of course told him I would teach him anything he wanted to learn, including the things that I knew nothing about, and that we would learn together.

Mike

im realy curios when you say dimond maching that could be several difernet things anyway he mite be there there to take your job nevertheless train him and train him good its good to be able to do a great job but its also good win you can train somebody to do jus as well he does good job there going to be looking at you like damn look wut hes got him doing i know how yah fill you jus cant go round given everything youv worked so hard to learn away but maybe you get some help with those orders and some respect to

You can bet that in the sure to come scurrying about to keep/hold jobs in Detroit will result in NOT a lot of sharing of skills. I can't help but see a blood bath when this "downsizing" will all take place.

WHen it comes to me an my job versus your or yours. wanna bet that cooperation as in sharing of job skills will become all but nonexistant???

I don't even want to be the mouse sitting by the wayside watching what's going on,

The last time GM downsized their engineering depts when they created the BOP and CPC restructuring, they literally had ambulances in front of the building in preparatino for the guys who surely would have heart attackts over losing thier jobs. Fortunatly, they had enought planned for as they were used, pretty much all of them

In light ow whats' to come, I hope they can find enough for this next blood bath.

For a company they pay for what I know
a school that is another matter...

From: J Mcdonough [mailto:jmcdonough@hanoverschools.org]
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:47 PM
To: 'Lakeside Design of Mass.'
Cc: 'Thomas Raab'
Subject: RE: V21 License Transfer

Mike
Thanks again for all your help.
Joanne

Joanne McDonough
Business Manager
Hanover Schools
188 Broadway
Hanover, MA 02339
Phone: 781-878-0786
Fax: 781-871-3374

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A company is like a chain,It's as strong as it's weakest link.
If I teach someone else what I know, if they ask for help, maybe that person doesn't have to struggle for hours to figure out what to do.
Why not make the company you work for as strong as it's strongest link.You know,TEAMWORK.
Usually that works pretty well.

As for getting fired,I think the management know exactly who to keep and who to let go,even if you teach people what you know.

Everardo,I'll have a beer with you.

Cheers.:cheers:

Re" company's knowing who to keep.

I"ve seen this "teamwork" crap foisted about an awful lot. IT is often merely another name for lemmingism. Lemmings simply all go off the deep end to their demise as they all follow each other.

I know of two very creative engineers at GM. THey essentially put together an engine control systen in the early 80's with lunch and travel money that was superior on every way to the crap that was coming out of GM R&D (delco) at the time. IT had actrive timing, cyd by cyl, knock sense, cyc by cyl, sequential EFI, the works. Was also fairly cheap compared to the projected costs for the Delco stuff.

The section manager essentially told Delco, why should I buy your crap, you should make what my guy came up with.

The reward: the engineer got shipped off to Washington to be burried in government paperwork and the tech who built it, got shoved off to midnight shift at the AZ proving ground - more desolate, boring jobs you can not find, at least for creative people.

Ran into similiar sort of treatment myself. Simple fact is that guys who are sharp WILL PICK UP the stuff quckly and on their own. THe "non trouble makers" get the aid and comfort of management as they are not a threat. "Trouble makers" can eventually overshine management, thus they are feared.

Some troublemakers are just that. HOwever I"ve been and seen creative, good people get the boot because they were simply too good at what they do, creativity wise. Bored people in non fulfilling jobs are hard to manage. Is it their fault the jobs suck or that management are dim bulbs?? maybe, maybe not. BUt to simply say "teamwork". HARDLY.

HEre is teamwork: A NASCAR car used to come down pit road at 80-90 mph and the pit crew would jump out in front of it to change tires and fuel. You never knew if the car would stop or plow thru the next 5 cars on pit road due to failed brakes. Luckily few got hurt real bad and nobody that I can recall got killed. IN fact, one of the glamor jobs wsa to go over the wall - these guys used to be some of the biggest party folks and some were the quietest - they were the most respected and appreciated and kept on the team no matter what. It wasn't until the big money days of late that these guys hopped from team to team..

I cited this to a section manager where I used to work. He knew of the situation as he sort of followed nascar racing. He tried to use the "teamwork" crap on me. To which I asked him if he'd jump out in front of about 5-6 people on his "TEAM" if they were driving that nascar car. Half ot them he said "hell no to", some he said "maybe" to and a few he said "in a heartbeat".

Even he was a bit surprised at his own response. He then admitted his "team" wasn't as coheisve as it might/should be.

Point being this: if you'd jump in front of the car your "team member" is driving during a balls out pit stop, by all means SHARE. If not, don't "go over the wall" to share stuff. Besides the guy you won't trust probably already doesn't nor ever will trust you.and/or share in return.

What about the lemmings? I wouldn't, the info eventually goes to waste anyway.