Well after waiting with anticipation for my non import quality d675 AngLock Kurt vise, it came in. The first thing I noticed is how beautiful it looked,The second thing I noticed is that there was considerable play side to side on the movable jaw.

So, I grabbed a feeler gage set and started with a .010" and kept working my way up until, no kidding, 0.025" before I finally couldn't slip it in between the middle guide and an inside rail. So I wrote a letter to Kurt mfg. and am presently waiting for a reply.

Before I get too upset about this, could I get some people to measure the side to side play on their Kurt d675 vises so I can have a better idea of what is normally out there. Meanwhile, I'll be waiting for a reply from Kurt mfg.

Sincerely,

Frank

I say your good to go that .025 in there so I will hold unparallel parts better.

I will second that! The movable jaw has some float to allow for minor misalignment. If it were rigid and didn't clamp parallel, it would be worse and you would be less happy.

The stationary jaw and seat are the control surfaces. If the head is trammed and the stationary jaw is indicated to the desired axis. No real issues should come of that .025. In most situations, one should never rely on the front jaw for repetitive part orientation.

DC

Thanks for the input. I may do some modifications though, to make the amount of slopiness adjustable in order accomidate the type of work I do, which is quite often small parts that are easier to grab on one side of the vise.

Frank

I see your point you could put one small part on the other end of the vise jaw to keep it parallel when clamped

Yes, though it seems a bit of a shame. With drill press vises I can understand having to do that.

I'll be interested to see if Kurt ever answers my email, and what they will say. I hope maybe they will listen to feedback, and improve the design further.

Frank

So, will the Kurt be better then the $75 Phase II that ENCO is offering?? How much better??

tighten the set screw on the backside of the moving jaw ,beleave its a 1/4 '' hex , if you loosen that screw right off you can remove the jaw for cleaning and maintenance porposes , kurt always has some slop or it won t move ,

the trick to using a kurt vise is , when you want to cut step jaws clamp on a parallel directly below where you are going to cut the step , to compensate for the lift ,this way you are assured acurracy when you clamp down on your part the lift shouldn t be an issue , and if you keep a consistant clamp pressure between parts you should aquire a fairly consistant parallism
keep the set screw snug ,because when you are clamping with hard jaws the fixed jaw will be square to the bottom of the vise , the moving jaw however will lift and no longer be parallel to the other jaw especially when you are clamping high in the vise , this will cause your part not to have even clamping pressure and the jaws will have a tendancy to push the part out , and even more so as you apply more pressure

kurt vises are bullet proof , after a while you ll be glad you didn t buy imports

next time look at CHICK vises dont let the price or the aluminum scare you , they work the opposite the more pressure the more the jaw sucks down , they don t lift , and in my opinion they are the best

Yes, though it seems a bit of a shame. With drill press vises I can understand having to do that.

I'll be interested to see if Kurt ever answers my email, and what they will say. I hope maybe they will listen to feedback, and improve the design further.

Frank

The level of precision in a high quality work horse vise verses a super precision toolmakers vise is quite different. Matching ones level of expectations with first hand knowledge, limits these kind of disappointments and surprises.

As a simple fix to the moving jaw slop. For my mill vises and even horizontal saw vises. I have made offset extented jaws that have a swivel foot screw(robbed from a De-Sta-Co clamp) into the face of the moving jaw on the extended end, for just this purpose. I can mount them to the right or left by swapping the front/rear jaws . They can be .5-1" wider on one end to facilitate room for the screw and a lock nut on the exposed rear face. Adjust it to suit the part being machined on the other end. Basically I did this because the dummy part would fall out, or just be plain inconvenient PITA.

A bit off topic.........Using the same principle as above. Most horizontal saws always seem to have the jaws so far away from the blade. Making small chunks impossible to trim. I made up some slightly larger false jaws from 3/8 CRS plate that extend out past both ends of the original jaws. The blade end, was cut to after final install with CS cap screws. The opposite end has the swivel foot screw to keep the jaws parallel when gripping short stock. With care, this makes it possible to trim off some parts with less than a 1/4" grip.

Give it a try. It'll make you happy CLAMPER too! :D :D :D

DC

You also have to figure that the D675 is Kurts general purpose vise, I bet that the CNC qualified units wont have that much play.
I (so far) have been too cheap to buy the CNC vises, but I have 3 D675 and 1 D688 and the are superb, all of my other vises went for scrap metal. My oldest D675 must be about 8 years, these are great units.

Thats interesting about the Chick vises pulling down as you tighten! Kurt apparently allows the use of O rings under the movable jaw to somehow achieve the pull down effect.

Also, I may try something like DCs' idea to deal with the clamping of small parts on one side of the vise where that .024 side play will cause trouble. As far as buying one of Kurts cnc vises goes, I simply can't afford stuff like that at this point :(

Frank

Frank
I checked 3 Kurt d675 vises with a feeler gage the best one was .004 play side to side on the movable jaw. and the other two had .006 & .008 the newess one is 6 years old.

mitch

Thanks Mitch! It seems that perhaps their quality control has gone down hill since 6 years ago, considering I have .024 side to side play on my brand new D675.

Anyone else have some interesting news? If I get enough feedback of this sort I will have something substantial to bring to Kurt.

Frank

Curiousity got the best of me and I had to go check. My thoroughly used and abused 1981 jet vise will just accept a .007 feeler gage. Perhaps that comparison will help motivate kurt ;)


Tiger

Wow!! Jet just went up a notch or two in my books.

Don't overestimate jet... I had the advantage of living in seattle when all jet tools passed through that port and I went down and hand picked my stuff at their outlet store. Most of what they were selling started out sloppier than mine ended up.

In fact, some of the most horrendous fits and finishes I've ever seen were on the jet tools in that warehouse. I recall one tool and cutter grinder that had the main dovetails grossly mismatched... 60 degree dt on the base and the table dt were euro style 55 degree, but it was all mated up and for sale that way... including the bonus .080 (approx) airgap on both sides LOL


Tiger

Point taken. LOL is right!

Frank

.024 side to side slop on my new D675 kurt vise! I can not properly/precisely grab work pieces at the side of the vise without trying to find a piece of material the right size to put in the other side (sort of like a drill press vise).

I would be interested to know if others have the same amount of side to side play to determine whether or not it is just a quality control slip up or not on Kurts behalf. So far it seems that older D675 vises have much less slop. Any input would be appreciated.

Frank

drill and tap a 1/4-20 on each end of the vise jaws and use a jack screww on theopposite side from your work, and leave it .01 small

I may end up having to do something like that Gus, but for now I would like to get some feedback from various Kurt vise owners and even other brand owners to see what is normal for Kurt and other brands.

I really would like actual measurements from people, because if Kurt is loosening up their tolerances or presently slacking off in the quality control, people should have the right to know and make buying choices accordingly. I know it would have been helpful for me to here feedback in hard numbers.

if you can t take out that kind of slop after doing any kind of adjustments , i would take it back and ask for another one , if machinists are going to accept their (kurt)product being that sloppy , they will keep on putting that out , respectable companies will give us what we ask for , but if noone is asking, then they will continue to put sloppy products out , if they are working in less toleranced manufacturing , then manufacturing is cheaper , less scrap ratio , less machine time , precision costs money and if ANY company can get away with it they will
just take it back drop it on their counter and tell the it crap

I couldn't have said it better myself dertsap!!

By the way, how high were you suggesting I drop it on there counter from?

As a principle of clamping, it is simply not sound practice to clamp a part at one end of the vise jaws, without a fulcrum spreader or spacer on the other end. I really don't care if the vise has .0005 clearance, torquing up the screw with a piece at one end will still skew the movable jaw enough that your part is clamped only on the inner corners.

In addition, the clamping effect is extra springy unless you have a fulcrum at the opposite end of the jaws.

Yes, actually for me it is a matter of degree of slop. For instance my old no name vise has no problem grabbing the type of parts that I normally work with on one side.
Granted it has many other short comings which the kurt likely doesn't, but again I say maybe I am too fussy, though I expect there are a lot of perfectionists out there :)

By the way, how high were you suggesting I drop it on there counter from?

as high as you can lift it

I'd like to laugh, but I'd better watch myself!

Well, Kurt sent me the dimensions/tolerances for the ways and inner slide. They were both out of tolerance. The outside dimension of the slide piece was .020" under the minimum tolerance. The inside dimension of the rails were .003 over the maximum. Together adding up to .023" of extra clearance.

So, I tried sticking brass shims in to take the slop out. That ended up only taking the slop out of the slide, but the movable jaw still had side to side slop from somewhere else.

Oh well, Kurt is going to take the vise back for inspection. I'll keep you posted.

Frank

Well I received my replacement Kurt D675 vise, the one which was sent back because the movable jaw guide rails were seriously out of tolerance. The replacement is still a fair bit out of the specified tolerance, although a bit better. Now there is also another problem which the other vise did not have,- excessive play coming from the thrust bearing (guess I can live with that).

Kurts response to my disappointment was to buy another more expensive model -(this vise was already expensive enough). They did apologize I'll give them that, mind you that doesn't really help me. Anyway, I just want to let people know of my real experience, so that everyone can make better informed decisions when spending their hard earned money.

Frank

You have an adjustment for this in the middle of the moving block that you attach
your move jaw on.
If you are looking at the vise on the handle end, the adjustment is looking right at you,
centerline in the move block, stick a allen wrench or a t-handle hex wrench and adjust.
This adjustment draws the move block up or down. I would also suggest that you
check the fixed jaw block for tightness. This is done from the under side of the vise.

Yes Ben I already tried the allen key adjustment with the first vise and it does not adjust side to side slop. I will try tightening the fixed block, but I really have my doubts that it will take care of everything since measurements don't lie.

Thanks,

Frank

i bought a d688 a few months back, and it doesnt want to sit against the parallel by the moveable jaw. i have tried using the o rings they give you and that still didnt work. any suggestions?

I got curious so went and measured my Kurt 3600V CNC vice, it has 0.006" slop.


Dave

Frank, sorry to hear about this. It's a shame that Kurt would not have a quality product to send you. I'm wondering if the model you bought is a Chinese copy that they simply slap their name on. Then again, they charge plenty good for those vises so you would expect better quality.

I wonder how many potential buyers will read this and not buy their product. Quite a few I'd say: type "Kurt D675" on Google and see who's the 3rd hit down.

JR

I have 3 - D675s and 1 - D688 and have no holding problems of this nature that I have noticed or been told of, although we would never hold a severely offset part without blocking the jaw. Even on a high accuracy vise physics dictate this.
If all your work is only using half the jaw length, maybe you should be using a vice half the size.
This is not meant to be rude, just my opinion.

Making soft jaws a bit taller than the standard height can make this such a non-issue. Cutting a step into both jaws while clamping together or on something used as a spacer will become a built in parallel to set the parts on. This also allows the part to be gripped on the center of the jaw. The jaws are sacrificial, so cutting and drilling into them is no big deal.

Constant off center loading without blocking the opposite end will eventually turn a precision vise into a sloppy vise anyways.

How's that saying go?.........Use it, don't abuse it? :D

DC

Wow! I tried that google search JR. Customer feedback can only be healthy for the consumer I figure. I'm not trying to stir up anything, just want people to know what they will be getting for there hard earned money.

I know there is always a work around that can make it tolerable to deal with certain short comings, but for the amount of money being spent we shouldn't really have to.

I'm a machinist and if parts left the shop which where out of tolerance like that there would likely be fur flying. :boxing:

Frank

I know there is always a work around that can make it tolerable to deal with certain short comings, but for the amount of money being spent we shouldn't really have to.

Frank

I would not consider it a work around a'tall. I have always thought of this is an ounce of prevention. First preventing the part from being ripped out of the vise due to poor jaw parallelism. If not ripped out, then it may shift during the cut. Secondly preventing addition wear from repeatedly putting the moving jaw into a bind.



I'm a machinist and if parts left the shop which where out of tolerance like that there would likely be fur flying. :boxing:

Frank

It is sad to see a work horse vise manufacturer that we consider top quality let their QC process become so lax that the customer is forced to deal with the difference in what quality they expect verses what they get sold. To get told to go buy a more expensive vise is just plain wrong. Nothing wrong with trying to get what you pay for. Obviously our customers wouldn't put up with that. Why should we put up with it from Kurt!

We recently had a similar issue with an Aloris AXA set for our Sharp CNC toolroom lathe. Only 2 of the 8 holders would go onto the post wedge. Their claim was that they lost the master that they judge fit by. Say what!? (*@#$%).

We had to send them the tightest and the loosest holder so they could match it up to a nominal post. They took care of us well, but why did it come to that in the first place!

DC

....Their claim was that they lost the master that they judge fit by. Say what!? (*@#$%)....DC

No, you have to be joking or mistaken or something...please......either that or your parenthetical comment is not expressive enough.

Originally Posted by One of Many
....Their claim was that they lost the master that they judge fit by. Say what!? (*@#$%)....DC



Man I have worked at some sucky companies but thats unreal!

I have about 20 vises in my shop about 5 are kurts and the of the other 15 2 are US Vise and the rest "cheap" imports.

The US vises are the first I bought when going into business, almost an exact replica of a Kurt (everything is interchangable, Ive tried it). I'v most of them were messuring about .005-.006 thou side to side.

Out of all the vises I've had the most problems with the US ones Probably alloy in the castings, 2 cracked in half from overtighting (ya I fire the employee that did this, after the second warning) and the thrust bearings just wouldn't live in them until they were moded to bronze solid thrust washers.

the second most troublesome is the kurts. That pretty paint they have on them maybe lasts a month before my coolant strips it off and I have had two of them lock the screws up in them where I had to us and impact to free them up again. Although on the plus side these 2 are still in production.

The cheepy chinees ones so far (after 4years) haven't had a single issue. But then they are exact copies of the earlier more robust Kurt vises (pre spiral snap ring hold together of the thrust washer).

Just to give another side to the story I have 12 Kurt D688 and 5 Kurt DL640 ranging in age from 3 to 7 years and have never had any issues with them. No jamming, no noticeable slop and the paint is still okay except where it has been chip blasted off.

they must have different places they get their painting done. because after I posted that I went and looked and one of mine looks as new as the day I bought it (paint wise anyway) and the others have no paint.

I have been using the same coolant for 4-5 years now.

A Gentleman can speak his mind while limiting his outrage, but still gets the point across! :rolleyes:

Would you have appreciated something more poignant? :o

DC

On another note from the same page.
I am a big fan of Bison tooling and chucks (Polish - in case you are wondering).
I notice that they have a vise that appears to be similar design to Kurt. Anybody using any of these? Feedback would be appreciated by all of us still viewing this thread.

BTW it is my oldest Kurt without any paint (No name on the sides of the moving block) and the newer ones (name recessed into the sides of the moving block) that are lasting better.
The only vises that we have split the castings on have been Asian imports.

I've worked with many vises including Kurt for 20 years. There are none better than Kurt, period. Their quality is as good if not better than ever. They are easy to clean and super reliable. That float is supposed to be there. If you have problems with clamping a small part on the extreme edge of the vise, just use a similar sized part on the opposite side or an adjustable parallel. This isn't a problem, it's just sound machining.

Yes, of coarse everyone is entitled to an opinion. As far as clamping a part on the other side of the vise that just happens to be the perfect size, well it's just plain inconvenient even if you happen to find something that fits.

Frank

Yes, of coarse everyone is entitled to an opinion. As far as clamping a part on the other side of the vise that just happens to be the perfect size, well it's just plain inconvenient even if you happen to find something that fits.

Frank

Workhorse and precision are expectations that include a specific price tag within fit, form and function. Not very often do we get to pick our price, then expect it to perform flawlessly for all circumstances.


As with many machining operations, there will be variables to compensate or unforeseen issues to adjust to. Since all the hand wringing in the world won't change that. There are methods to make this rather trivial vise slop a non-issue with a minor change in habits for maximum impact on function. A similar problem would be just as troublesome while gripping non-parallel parts in a totally rigid vise.

As is a reamer=precision to a drill.
As is grinding =precision to conventional chip removal

So to should be proper vise selection =precision to duct tape fixes that could be made to fit the application?

Usefully applied experience can and will get the job done, while "inconvenient" is just another opinion on the whole scheme of adaptations we do for craftsmanship.



DC

If you want a slip free - no jiggle - vice, get a toolmakers vice(AKA diemakers' vice). I knew a tool maker with a mighty vice once - he wobbled a bit when practicing his vice a bit to much.

anywho - look at these piktures - they are purty!
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&q=toolmakers+vice (http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&q=toolmakers+vice)
(nuts)

I have had no problems with Kurt vices. I have squared up countless blocks and plates of various sizes and materials in a Kurt. To me the movable jaw in the Kurt is a key component to getting around the occasional out-of-parrallel edges. If every horizontal band saw cut perfectly square faces, every piece of scrap was allready squared - or I(and everyone else) was an ace at feeding plate through a vertical band saw, I would not ever need for that slop in the Kurt vice. When I have to work on small parts I sometimes clamp a screwless tool-makers vice into a Kurt and perform the operations. Tool-makers vices are ussualy very slip free, much like box-ways are. They are ground that way. Though as the oppinions in this thread seem to proove - it depends on the brand and the customers specific needs. Tool-makers vices are also not good for really heavy machining(they are good for small precision parts) - if your doing some light surface grinding - or facing the ends of a piece of 1/16" brass key stock that is supposed to be a 1/4" long and have 00-90 tapped holes on three different faces then a Kurt vice is probably not the best solution.

You need to adjust the set screw as said earlier. The kurts are still the best and most rugged. You can make a precision vise out of it by putting all components on the surface grinder and surfacing and squaring all surfaces. Then adjust the screw until vise will just open and close. Each time you make a set up repeat the setting process for the position you are using at the time.