For openers I want to let you know I have no idea what I am getting into:)

I cannot program, don't have a shop, and have no background in machining.

I have watched people use a Mazak metal mill to "hog" out 3d parts. It made me wonder about something similar for wood.

That led me to some internet searching and here I am.

I am interested in making 3d style details for furniture without having to hand carve them. (Not only am I too lazy, I have about zero gift for carving.)

Idealy I would like to take a drawing, scan, or even a model and have the computer render it into whatever code is required for the router to make the 3d (actually more like raised or embossed) parts.

It seems like there should be something out there that would work for me but I have not seen it yet.

This would be a hobby type thing and not an actual business so I am somewhat limited to the "garage" catagory. I have available 110 and 220 volts but not the 380 and better I see on most CNC routers.

Which brings me to another question...Other than price is there an advantage to using the stepper motors instead of true servos?

Is there any particular book on the subject that you would recommend?

Thanks for your time

Easy Boy, you're getting into some deep territory.
First you will need a true 3D cad-cam system that can produce surfaced or solid models and be able to put toolpaths on the models. Something like MasterCam or Surfcam will set you back about 15K.

Then you need a machine that can do simotaneous 3D interpolation (Run a minimum of 3 axis at the same time.) To avoid gouging and bad surface finish the machine will need to be tight with good backlash compensation. Servo drives are best.

For small stuff (20 x 14 x 6) I would shop for a used Bridgeport or Tree CNC mill with an easy to use control (Anilam or Dynapath)
Your spindle speed will be too low to cut wood effectively so you will need to rig up some sort of high speed spindle.

Add in the cost of carbide tooling and tool holders another 10-20K

Then there's the learning curve.
It takes time to learn how to program and most people will tell you, learn to machine manaually before trying to jump into CNC.

Hope I haven't been too much of a wet blanket.

Mike

Look in the home made wood routers section of this forum for lots of info on this subject.

You need:
CNC router
CAM software

Steppers are cheaper. As far as I know that's the only advantage over servo's.

Eric

Originally posted by castguy2003
Easy Boy, you're getting into some deep territory.
First you will need a true 3D cad-cam system that can produce surfaced or solid models and be able to put toolpaths on the models. Something like MasterCam or Surfcam will set you back about 15K.

Then you need a machine that can do simotaneous 3D interpolation (Run a minimum of 3 axis at the same time.) To avoid gouging and bad surface finish the machine will need to be tight with good backlash compensation. Servo drives are best.

For small stuff (20 x 14 x 6) I would shop for a used Bridgeport or Tree CNC mill with an easy to use control (Anilam or Dynapath)
Your spindle speed will be too low to cut wood effectively so you will need to rig up some sort of high speed spindle.

Add in the cost of carbide tooling and tool holders another 10-20K

Then there's the learning curve.
It takes time to learn how to program and most people will tell you, learn to machine manaually before trying to jump into CNC.

Hope I haven't been too much of a wet blanket.

Mike

Forgot to add, scanning systems for CNC cost big $$$$$$

Don't get put off by the big $$$ numbers. There is a lot of information here from people trying to do the same thing as you.

You can find used routers on Ebay, or build your own. The software can be anything from shareware to $15k.

My scanning software was inculded in a $100 CAD program.

The high voltage you mention was probably for the spindle, not the machine drivers. All of the router drivers I see here run on 120v. Spindles also run on 120v.

A bridgeport style mill is overkill for carving wood.

Keep looking around this site, be sure to look in the Photo Gallery section.

I checked out E-bay this morning and there seems to be a few there in the 7 to 15K range with all the drivers-software but seems to me that the software is a bit limited. Mostly 2d type stuff.
I am not too terribly concerned with the software cost. Heck I bought 11 copies of autocad 14 for $200. (installed one the rest are in a drawer:P) So if I can find out what software can be used for what I want then I will find it sooner or later.

I am looking to do something close to the sign company stuff.
like : http://www.gspinc.com/products/routers/d200.html
(I don't want to do signs just close)

I can get servos and steppers pretty cheap. (at or about OEM)
so I might end up buying a table but then I have to have someone put it together for me...

I will keep looking around and lurking here to see what I can learn:)

Look at Shopbot or V-Max routers. Those guys are putting out nice machines for the buck.

If you don't mind spending a few grand you can build a hell of a machine for about or much less than a commercial router with the same or better performance. Unfortunatley the softaware for doing 3d Carving is not as easy as opening a file and go cut a part. It takes quite a bit of effort to create a good toolpath.

ArtCam is pretty slick for adding carved features and such. (Pretty expensive though, $7,000 or so I think)

For cheap 3D software, check out MeshCam at http://www.robgrz.com
It's in beta right now, but it seems to work pretty good. The final price is supposed to be about $100, but the free beta has no expiration. It will create 3D gcode from just a bitmap, or from an .stl file which you can export from AutoCAD (solid models only).
A lot of guys in the homemade wood router section, like Eric said, build machines for around $1000, some more, some less.

Gerry

I am doing fairly nice wood carvings with my home made router. I would say that the best thing I did purchase was my small desktop probe scanner. It allows me to scan 'real' artwork and create an STL file for loading into CAM software to generate machine code. This probe scanner is the Roland Pix-30. It has an envlope of 8" x 12" x ~3". I have scanned embossed greating cards and got nice models for carving in wood. You can scan small and enlarge the CAD file to what you want. If you know an art student they can get you in contact with someone who is good at clay sculpture. This is where you can do custom carvings when you scan the clay work that was done.

Keep looking and don't give up.

.

Did a quick search on the Roland. Neat app!

Here is the link:
http://webferret.search.com/click?wf,roland+pix+30,3,www.gravers.com%2Fiedpix30.html,,hotbot

Clan,

That is the exact same place I purchased mine from. When I got mine they had a better deal on the website.... $2795.00

My entire business is built around 3-d wood carving with a cnc router, reverse engineering products and producing complex toolpaths on a contract basis for guys that have already spent a boatload of money and can't get it done.. You don't HAVE to go broke to cut some cool wood.

At the hobby level ( price wise ) you can do it ( start from scratch ) only if you get very interested in the cnc building and learn the basics. There are several, mostly completed, machines that you ad your own motion devicves and controls to. This is not real hard to learn and most junior colleges will have a great course on just this. Also do a search on Ebay for cnc router.

There are many cam ( this is the software that makes your toolpath ) programs that will produce basic machine type toolpaths that will carve very well indeed. If you want to get pretty automated and have a multitude of toolpath types with dozens of options and parameters for each cut you can't do much better than Visual Mill 4.0. It is $2,000. I also own some $20,000 software that just site on the shelf.
Most of the free and $100+- programs will get your wood cut just fine.

If you stay small scale in your ambitions you can survive fine with 110 volt equipment and a normal wood working router for a spindle.

If you think you would want to draw your own 3-d models, Rhino is about the best bang for the buck and easiest learning curve. It cost about $580.00

You can do a Google search for 3-d models ang find online databases for anything you can imagine. Some free, some cheap and some not so cheap.

Try to find someone in your are with a router to give you a hand or at least let you get a feel for how they do it and then shop all the component manufacturers catalogues.

Best of luck,
Phill Pittman
www.masterwerkes.com
digicarve@verizon.net

Just keep on asking questions. Everybody in here will get you anyhelp you need. You would need to learn how to program but that is something you can learn. Everybody in here are very good at helping in everyway thay can. I am in the middle of designing a cnc router right now and I would not do it without the help of everyone in here. Good luck with everything.


Talk to you later



JIMMY

Well I have been reading alot about routers, 3d software, and scanners and have been narrowing down some of the possibilities.

Unfortunately I missed a probe scanner at an auction last week becuase I didn't know what it was:(

At any rate I have three things I want to do with the router and they seem to be at odds.

The first is making boat parts. My stepson is heavy into fishing the flats here in Florida but his boat just draws too much water to be suitable for that type of fishing. So he bought a set of plans to make a wooden flats boat. Some of the parts will be a full eight feet long by almost 4 feet wide. A full sheet bed would be required. Once input into the hard drive it would be a simple task to make the components for anyone else that wanted them.
(They would still have to purchase the plans though)

Second item would be for doors, both entry and kitchen. My wife wants new kitchen cabinets and the design that she came up with is mucho dollars to have made. The difference in cost by making it myself would probably pay for the router. (Assuming I don't screw up too much:)

Third I would like to make small wooden figures. This is the part that does not seem to go well with the others. Intricate and massive seems to be a mutually exclusive idea.

Actually I have a forth want but that is to "machine" small parts from copper and aluminum. I designed a water cooling block for computers and if my testing goes as well as I think it will I may need to make some for selling.

I had to fumble around with autocad to make the design but I got the first prototype made without a hitch. (And I found out that ACAD wasn't as hard as I thought it was)

Back on track...

Touch probes seem to be very slow and less detailed than many of the other types of scanning but the price is much lower. In fact most of the laser and optical scanners won't even post their price listing on the web. It would be very nice to be able to put a small, detailed figurine into the scanner and have it output the code required to make a wooden rendition. The probe style looks like it will not be detailed enough to do the scans.

As for the router, I may need to purchase a small CNC mill with a wood set to get what I am looking for in the detrail department and a larger be router for the rest.

Thoughts?

The real bonus about cnc is that resolution is resolution. If you build your bed to do a 4x8 area or larger, the resolution is still determind by the component specs, not size.

Small figurines are very easy to do ( set them up hurizontally) if you simply mount the "feet" end of your material to a mounting block that will rotate and re-fix into the exact same place. I use hollow cubes with a precisley marked center and I attach strips in my router so that I can rotate the material 90 degrees and replace it in exactly the same position. This is faster and cheaper than using a rotary axis. You can use you inexpesive software and simply rotate you original 90 degrees and program for another three axis cut. A live fourth axis is also easy and fun to get running. I made my first one with axle hubs for a boat trailer, a stepper motor and a timing belt. It works every bit as good as the expensive commercial ones that I have.

On resolution; My main machine is a 5' x 10' machine that weighs twice what my truck does. I don't have a problem doing rings and guitat neck inlay and fret cutting on it.

Getting committed is the only hard part you have left.

Good luck,

Phill Pittman
www.masterwerkes.com
digicarve@verizon.net

Phill,

First thanks for your reply.

Second.. Fantastic work! I love the doors and mantles!

Your site is cleanly layed out and easy to navigate.

Interesting that you are still carving on them though. Do you have to do that or is that a part of making it original?

Thanks much,

We don't really have to do anything much after the router is finished. That photo exhists because my web author ( son ) thought we needed a photo to indicate we really did have a carving foundation in the business.
I kind of liked that particular photo because I dont really remember what I looked like when my hair wasn't snow white.

I actually make very few originals by hand. I design 3-d models natively in Rhino. If someone has an original to bring in accuratley, I have a digitizer to bring it into Rhino with.

The digitizer makes for a real change of pace. I did the mating faces of an engine block and a transmission last week, some telephones later and I will be doing an Italian sports car for a kit car manufacturer to make mold off the foam body parts I cut for him.

I have another website that addresses reverse engineering expressly, but just don't have the time to get it organized yet.

Thanks again for the kind words.

Phill Pittman
www.masterwerkes.com
digicarve@verizon.net

Found this listing of shows: http://www.thewoodworkingshows.com/tjr/V40/index.cvn

I would like to take a closer look at routing before I jump headlong into it and do not want to get the sales pressure of visiting any vendors.

Are there any shows that you all would recommend?
And at the shows how much real (not sales) information can I expect?


Thanks,
Lex

Clan,

You would be very supprized at how much detail you can get from a probe scanner. My Roland has a .004 probe point and it is good for +- .002 (as I remember). For wood carving you will never see this error, or know it's even there. The only problem with the probe scanner is that you can't scan under cuts, (or cnc cut them very easy). This is why Carver does hand work.

Clan, that series of woodworking shows has no vendors related to CNC (unfortunately).

Spent the last couple of days looking around sites for routers, woodworking and cnc stuff. Alot of people doing cnc, alot doing woodwork, not many doing cnc woodwork. And those that do are far away and or do not want to share their "secrets":(

I do have a plastics shop pretty close by that will let me come by and check out how they do things but they just cut flat parts. (though they do some bending as well) Not so sure that will help me but it can't hurt.

On the CNC front I talked to a couple of the electrical-motion engineers here at work and they have offered their help in setting up the electrical package required for either Indramat or AB servos for me. (One has an extra AB 1000 touchscreen I can get as well) I have the opportunity to get Indramat MKD motors very cheap. (Our company has obsoleted them for the PPC style. Whatever that means:P) The servos seem to be a bit overkill in that they are 52 inch pound motors and run at 480 3 phase. However, I managed to pick up 20 transformers at an auction for $150. So if need be I can use them. Also got 10 Eurodrive gearmotors cheap at the same auction. Was going to make a hoist out of one.

Heh I get off subject easily. At any rate, I have been seing alot of routers for sale on E-bay and am researching what my real needs are for what I want to do.

Looks to me that my next step is still to find a show, or if none are available, a company to let me do some touchy feely.

Thanks for all the support so far:)

I actually just got done making a very small first run try at a 3 axis machine. Bearings and screws seemed to work wonderfully. I do though wonder if you will have a terminduos amount of force between the side bearings and the top bearing. I would guess that as long as you laterally keep allignment it could work. Left over from my expereince I have a pair of bearings and screws which may work good for you. they may work with your idea. They are 37 inch long 1" dia , 4 turns per inch,route



Maybe you would like to take a look . I have posted all the information that I thought I needed to use them. But it was just going to be to big of a project.

Item number: 3804800919

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=3804800919

All, I found a software product called WINTOPO through Google. It vectorizes digital pictures. There is both a freeware and a professional version. The freeware does a very nice job of vectorizing the pictures. Also, BobCAD has a special going on right now - got version 19 for $495.00 a couple days ago. WINTOPO, BobCAD and TURBO CND should combine nicely into a rather capable set-up, don't you think? I have also ordered the HOBBYCNC driver/motor kit. Not too big but a good start I think. I'll let you know how it all works out. Using IGUS linear components for the table X, Y and Z axis. Precision ACME screws and nuts from McMaster-Carr and MSC. Total cost so far, software, hardware and electronics, about $1100. Now all I have to do is bring it all together.

Clan,

True 3D carving software is generally expensive.

However, VS3D is currently available for $975. It excels in 3D Virtual Sculpting, 3D carving, and 3D engraving.

VS3D can also perform image "embossing" (import a digital photo or scanned drawing and convert image brightness to surface height). VS3D performs all the sophisticated 3D tool offset calculations to optimize the cutting paths based upon the shape of the tool bit and the shape of the surface being carved. VS3D can be used for everything from jewelry to large concrete forms.

The VS3D home page is viewable at:
http://www.DesignsComputed.com/vs3d

Hi dcarr,

Thanks for letting us know about your product. It looks very interesting and capable.

I will not have time to check out the demo for a day or two.
Does it handle automated engraving of fonts with a v-bit. I have a friend that is just getting into sign carving and looking for an affardable solution that does not require him to draw the tool paths manually.

Thanks for your time.

Phill Pittman

phill@masterwerkes.com

Hi dcarr,

Thanks for letting us know about your product. It looks very interesting and capable.... Does it handle automated engraving of fonts with a v-bit. I have a friend that is just getting into sign carving and looking for an affardable solution that does not require him to draw the tool paths manually.
... Phill Pittman

Hello Phil,

Yes, with VS3D can sculpt and carve fonts. Any vector or True Type font currently installed on your computer will be available in VS3D. You can sculpt the text in, and just cut out the letters with a V-bit (or other bit shape), or you can carve away averything but the letters leaving them in relief. Here is an example of that:
http://www.designscomputed.com/vs3d/examples/md.html

And no manual tracing of the letters is required - VS3D can automatically find the centerlines of the letters, and will automatically (continuously) adjust the V-bit up and down to modulate the width.

Here is a detailed example process for carving an embossed "3D" digital photo in VS3D:
http://www.designscomputed.com/vs3d/examples/img_emboss.html

And here is one more example on carving the Eiffel Tower in relief from a 3D digital (DXF) model:
http://www.designscomputed.com/vs3d/examples/model_relief.html