Anyone else out there had this problem? My '03 Expedition had a spark plug blow out of the head this week. It's a 5.4L Triron V8. Has over 100 thou on it, but from what I've been able to find out, it's a very common problem on that engine. Seem like the threads in the head are shallow. Some of the posts I've read say it has happened at 30 or even 40,000. Ford says not our problem. New head installed was going to cost me $3300 to $4500 depending on where I had it fixed. I decided to go with a new engine. $6700 installed. According to the dealer, the new ones have been redisigned to correct the problem.
Just wondering what anyone else has heard.

Why not Helicoil the head???

That was my first thought. But according to Ford and the website consumeraffairs.com, it's been tried many times and doesn't hold. That website has lots of info. Just googled Ford cylinder head problems or Ford spark plug blow out and found out the extent of the problem.

Sounds like something that if you yell enough at the dealer, they'll fix it. An unspoken warranty.

So far not going to happen. I'm yelling at the dealer and everywhere that I can find the Ford name. Gm's for all my life until this truck. If they don't help it will be the last.

Word on the various auto forums is most of these problems are occuring on heads that the spark plugs have been replaced on. If you had another shop change the spark plugs recently I would return it to them and have them fix the problem they caused.

A good place to check out is www.ford-trucks.com in their message forums. This is a notorious issue with the OHC Fords. (I have a '99 F250 V10). Plug changes are very particular and finicky on these because of the aluminum threads. It only takes a little grit or a careless hand to damage the threads. Undertorquing will cause the plug to rattle loose over time and then get blown out. The design theory was that modern plugs last 100K miles so there would only be a couple plug changes over the life of the engine. Shortsightedness on the part of the designers.

If the plugs are original, you might consider legal advice. If someone changed them, Ford won't help.

Ford changed them. Lots and lots of problems with these. Consumeraffairs.com is loaded. But I'll continue to make noise until either they help with the fix or I dump the truck and go back to GM.

I would go with helicoils. We use them on alum racing heads all the time with no problems. It always has ended the plug problems with us. Most of the time installing the helicoils is the first thing we do to prevent the problem from ever occuring
(:~)= Terry

Anyone else out there had this problem? My '03 Expedition had a spark plug blow out of the head this week. It's a 5.4L Triron V8. Has over 100 thou on it, but from what I've been able to find out, it's a very common problem on that engine. Seem like the threads in the head are shallow. Some of the posts I've read say it has happened at 30 or even 40,000. Ford says not our problem. New head installed was going to cost me $3300 to $4500 depending on where I had it fixed. I decided to go with a new engine. $6700 installed. According to the dealer, the new ones have been redisigned to correct the problem.
Just wondering what anyone else has heard.
Hey,
Don't give up on your head/engine yet. There are several different type of thread repair systems out there. I would try the heilcoil first, Ive yet to loose a well installed heilcoil.
You can heilcoil, double heilcoil. Install thread inserts that have the correct plug thread on the I.D. and a larger thread on the O.D. of the repair thread. You'd be able to try several different types of fixes and still not spend $500 total. DON'T LET THE DEALER HOSE YOU !!! Look in McMaster Carr or Enco tools, you can find their catologs on the net. stop at a local speed shop, ask around, go to your local Auto Zone. If your in western NC, I'ed give you a hand. In spite of what the dealer has told you you could drive the engine with it making that sucking noise from here to California if you had to and not do any real damage if you kept your speed under 70.
tenmetalman

http://www.timesert.com/html/howtosp.html

http://www.timesert.com/html/triton_repair.html

ive seen this online some time before... ive never used it

talk to some machie shops that work with heads see what the recomend


ive been lurking on this site for months and i have to say kudos to everyone who uses this forum

Hell if you havn't had the work done yet you should just pull the head and have the plug hole welded, drilled and retapped.

Biggest problem is I make my living driving to customers and grinding spindle tapers. 60,000 mileas a year. I want to make sure my repair works. Just like this week, it is a real problem to be 200 miles from home and have a major engine failure. I'm just going to bite the bullet and replace the engine. New ones have been redisigned and don't seem to have the problem. $6500 is a lot of money, but I can't be driving and worrying about getting from my house in Illinois to Houston without breaking again.

nubz69 said my thoughts on this. I used to do this for a mechanic friend of mine, weld,drill,tap and reskim never had any problems apart from getting hold of the taps but its better than heli's and cheaper than buying new.

Seems like any ford I have looked at latley are cheaply made junk. I guess you get what you pay for

Considering the cost of an Expediton, I wish I would have gotten what I paid for. My boss's son has a Suburban with 565,000 miles on it and no major repairs. When I get this one somewhere close to paid for, that will be the next truck.

The guy's at Ford-Trucks.com recommend that Timeset solution. It apparently is fairly easy to do but time consuming.

From what I read, the cause is mostly from sloppy hamfisted plug replacement. When done properly, there's no troubles but Ford should have known better. Plug replacement should be a brainless procedure but they made it too much of a precision installation. Since you stated the dealer is the one who replaced the plugs, I think your issue should be aimed at him. For that kind of cash, you might consider spending $200 to consult with an attorney.

The problem is also overblown like many things on the internet. Think about how many of these engines Ford has built (4.6L first appeared in 1993) and how often you hear about this problem. All the V8 Mustangs since '96, Crown Vics, F-series, Explorers all have Triton engines. That means tens of millions of engines over the past decade each with at least 8 plugs. All automakers have their detractions so don't think that one is better than another. Focus more on your local dealer and his ability to service to your satisfaction.

Good luck.

It is a known phenomenon that steel anything threaded into aluminum heads results in corrosive potential. This is why antiseize compound (pretty sure it is powdered nickel combined with a lubricant) is recommend. The compound helps prevents the corrosive bonding that occurs and thus does what it says it will do..

The oem spark plugs are usually flash plated with nickel or some other anticorrosive protectant thus one SHOULD NOT need antisieze at oem assembly - this is done for cost savings.

Typical dealer service guy is paid flat rate (so much per job regardless of time spent). Thus, it is not uncommon for some (not all) to zip out the plugs with an impact wrench or air ratchet to save time/make more money.

Reinstallation SHOULD be performed by hand and the plugs TORQUED to a prescribed spec (I'd use antisieze but check the manual for specifics). The plugs could sieze and tear out threads upon disassembly due to impact overspeed and corrosive thus tearing up threads - subsequent retorque seals the fate to what are now damaged/yielded threads.

Greater potential for stripping will occur if the tech impacts them back in rather than proper torquing. One can NOT accurately judge torque in unlubed threads with an impact/air wrench. Moreover, when you torque something, only 10% +/- of the tighening torque goes towards "tightening the joint" - the balance overcomes thread and underhead friction (per SPS fastener manual). This is why proper torquing is SO CRITICAL ('... what do you mean TORQUE them??? I've been doing this for umpteen years and never used a torque wrench...that's BS") Oh yeah???

When properly tightened, the threads should not pull. However, if the threads yielded (permanent deformation at removal or reinstall) they'll pull quite easily thereafter. Ditto that if the are corroded.

Have worked on lots of Al heads (BB Chevy, SB Chevy, Lawnmower, Corvairs, etc) over the years. In each and every case of spark plug thread damage, the problem was caused by sloppy assembly (cross threading) and/or overtorquing. In rare cases where the head got overheated or in high mileage where afore mentioned corrosion occurred, you have problems due to metal deterioraton. Due to the packaging in the particular engine, there might not be room for a coil - if I recall they are using a real small plug and it is packed real tite in that head.

Note: plugs also break off in iron S/B Chevy heads due to mother nature's loctite/rust but this usually occurs at removal, not while running. FYI: the plug breakage @ removal is so well known that, when my SB chevy powered Firebird needed plugs, I took them to the dealer. Even before the dealer would take the work in, he warned of the problem and said "if it breaks, it will be a time and material repair" to which I said "no thanks". The car is still running fine with 90k on the odometer and no plans in store to replace plugs.

Anyway, you could have a combo of high mileage blues combined with ham fisted effort on part of service guy who "fixed" the plugs when he replaced them. Impossible trick now is to PROVE who's fault it is and that will probably ultimately cost you more than the repair itself.

EDIT: the reason why dealer only replaces head/engine instead of repairs via helicoil is simple. FoMoCo will warranty any service parts they sell. Thus, if part fails, Ford will pay warranty $$$'. If the dealer fixes it, HE absorbs the $$$'s if there is a comeback. Dealer is only doing a $$$/CYA deal which we all do to some extent.

FWIW: I know of a benchmarking study wherein ALL the LD and MD gas trucks were enduro tested to see which trucks were the toughest in which area. At 250K of abusive accelerated testing, reportedly the GM's powertrains were still going fine wherein the competition's had already succombed to this or that malady - all the chassis and drivetrains were falling apart regardles of the make. Rumors are worth the paper they're written on but I got this one from a first hand and trusted witness to the results.

In my opinion, when you buy a truck, buy the engine - the rest is just a package for same and there isn't a tinker's diddle difference in the boxes they come. They are all made of parts from the cheapest vendor...

I have seen quite a few instances of these heads failing at as little as 40,000 miles. THe problem even as stated by 3 Ford dealers was that the right side heads have threads that are too shallow. That is what they redesigned to correct the problem. Sure mine has over 100,000 and it was tuned up. But when the dealers tell you that they have seen this problem in the past it makes you wonder. There is a lawyer in CA. that has petitioned the feds to force a recall, but there is now way it's going to happen. 17 million of these on the road. Ford isn't going to pay that kind of money unless it it s real saftey hazard. So I'll just eat the $6700 and see if it lasts any longer. 4 Chevy Astros that went 250 to 300 thousand with no big reapirs. I just decided that I was tired of that interior that had not changed in years. Wantedsomething different and got it.

If the cyclinder head sparkplug threads are to shallow, then the sparkplug threads protrude inside the combustion chamber (Ford defective part). that is where you will find that nice carbon build up which also builds around the exposed sparkplug threads. At the dealer when they removed the old plugs from the cyclinder head (with a 200 lbs impact wrench of course!) and the mechanic noticed some of the aluminum threads still attached to the plug. He then quietly dabbed a little silicone sealer on the threads of the new plugs screwed them on and hoped the fix would last more than 30 days.....

Why should you pay for something Ford manufactured defective, and for the dealer who changed the plugs....sparkplug did not blow out on the first 100K miles, why should it blow out after they changed the plugs?

Dealer changed the plugs dealer should pay!

Get a letter from a lawyer friend and watch it get fix right away.

It does seem like a cut and dry case if the dealer changed the plug. Either that, or they should show you a TSB that says that the engine is known to be defective. I'd think small claims court would wrap that up quickly if that's an option.

Similar thing happened on our GM van. Turns out the engine has a known design defect with the intake manifold seal leaking coolant into the oil sump. They replaced it for free on the 3.8 liter, but the 3.4 liter had the same problem, and it cost us $900.

No doubt that it's a Ford defective part. Even the dealers that I have talked to say so. But getting them to pay for it is another problem. And there is no way they are going to put that in writing. The dealer itself is not responsible for factory defects. That is the responsibility of Ford Motor Company. So the law suit would have to be against Ford. Who has enough money as an individual to go against Ford? Not me that's for sure. I'm going to try to raise enough of a stink that they will at least help with the repair. But again, I don't have the time to let the truck sit while I fight this. I make my living in this thing. Leave home Monday and get back Friday. Doesn't leave a lot of time. I have to fix it and get back on the road before my company gets upset that I'm not bringing in any income. I might consider filing a protest with AMEX and at least tie up the funds for a while.

Depending on state laws, small claims court can go up to $10k in some cases and $5k in others. Small claims is typically YOU versus WHOMEVER in the local area. Costs $25 to $50 to file. No lawyers get involved.

If you sue the dealer for contributory negligence, he has to defend the work of his technician. Now, if he KNEW that there is/was a defect in the head, he contributed to the damage by doing the work anyway.

His only out is to show that someone else (IE: his poorly trained technician or perhaps oem) is to blame. The Judge could rule that this other entity is liable which is what you're hoping for in the first place - a finding of law.

Here's where it gets interesting. If dealer uses the "not by fault, it is an oem defect", the dealer is a licensed and solely authorized agent of the oem. His word can be taken as a "recognized expert" into other courts.

HE can also be forced to reliably testify if there is a pattern of problems like this. IF dealer gets sued, he's gonna get the factory reps involved no matter what. Sort of catch 22 as is becomes a "you're at fault, no you are". This easily could become a case of watching animals eat their young.

Simple subpoena (comes free for any suit) will get the Service Mgr and/or technician into court. You can also subpoena service records, oem to dealer communications, basically whatever is/can be the smoking gun (service records for other head replacements, etc). Can you spell class action???

IF the dealer admitted that "yes, there is a history of these" and "the heads are mismachined (IE: wrong thread depth on right bank heads)", you've got proof to/for the judge to grant summary judgement in your favor.

IF YOU SUE DEALER, IT STAYS LOCAL, IF YOU SUE OEM, YOU MAY HAVE TO GO FEDERAL AND THAT GETS SERIOUSLY EXPENSIVE AND COMPLICATED.

Anyway, if the dealer says "oem defect", somebody (via lawyer in CA???) could then possibly be subpoena'd to show blueprints. Whereupon you could then have independant agent measure heads for "defective" threads. At that point, non conforming material becomes a matter of public record. Nobody wants that info out in the public.

If the CA lawyer you mentioned doesn't know how to do this, find a better one - the tactics described are basic product liability stuff that any good legal agent could do in his sleep. Your case could be the smoking gun needed to get a class action settlement started.

NO matter what, when REAL suits get intitiated, it is amazing how fast and how much more reasonable people become in trying to resolve an issue to everyone's satisfaction. At that point you may be offered a "policy adjustment" for a chunk of the repairs "to maintain good will" which is what you're really hoping for in the first place, right?

Isn't the justice system neat???

Or, you can simply pay the bill and move on.....

(The above is NOT legal advice from a person trained or qualified to provide such information. It is merely a hypothetical discussion that, as legal advice, should be taken at face value and used at ones own risk. Talk to a lawyer and take his advise before taking any legal action. )

Once the dealer (or anyone else) replaced the plugs, Ford was out of the picture. They could no longer control what happened with the engine. If a class action suit goes after Ford, Ford will pull records on every vehicle with this problem and show that the plugs that blew out were not ones installed by the factory. It's obviously a design that is vulnerable to careless mechanics but the dealers are trained with written procedures and supposedly certified to work on the vehicles.

The "design defect" is a wild goose chase because it is only anecdotal and the dealers will tell you any tales to convince you that their mechanics are perfect and Ford gave them a lousy product. Do you really think the dealer is going to admit they have some incompotent technicians working on your $40K truck?

I'm not defending Ford as some bunch of infallible angels but dealers are notorious liars and thieves who blame everyone except themselves. Auto designer is an honorable profession. Car saleman is a nefarious career. The dealer is the one who replaced the plugs thus he is responsible for repairing the damage done. They are feeding you a story about design defect in order to shift blame from themselves.

How you handle this is a legal matter best advised by someone of that trade. Since you're willing to eat the $6K engine replacement, consider spending a couple hundred bucks with an attorney to get a hard opinion on your options. A letter written on the attorney's letterhead might move mountains and get the dealer to act more in your favor.

Caprirs reply and mine imply the same thing - LEGAL PRESSURE.

Lawyer and/or small claims merely raise the level of pressure. Caprirs is the first step - my is a hypothetical escallation strategy.

As a former automotive engineer (now self employed) and an engineer who did product liablity litigation work and a dealer warranty administrator MANY years ago, it all comes down to pressure, who applies it and where.

Legal pressure begets monetary relief - thats the intent anyway. The suit cleary is gonna force the service guy to put his money where his mouth is, that's all.

And you are interested in recovering $6k or so right??? Money could be in their or your pocket. How bad do you want it???

Sure except the dealer repair warranty is 90 dyas or 4000 miles. It's been only 45 days, but about 6000 miles. They are going to claim that the warranty has expired which it has. I have a sister in law that is an attorney. She is going to write a letter, but tells me that the 6000 miles will probably do me in.

Soe one stated this problem is the replacement of these plugs. The truth is many of these have blown out with out ever being replaced. And even people that have taken a 100000 mile extended warrenty are refused coverage because it not an internal lubricated part.

Its a Ford Defect and just maybe some day they will have to make it right. Wonder whay they are closing plants and laying off 30000 employees?

since the mid 80's, gm has been building some of their cars in the same factories with the same American workers as toyota. Say what you want about unions, but the fact that these nearly identical cars sell much better when they have a toyota sticker on them says something about the brands, and I say it's the integrity of their management.
Now they want to move the manufacturing overseas, blaming American workers for their problems. The management of these companies need to look at themselves in the mirror and ask why nobody wants to buy their cars. They just aren't building cars people want to buy. When they do, as in the case of the Taurus back in the 80's, they are very successful. It's not just price, most of the japanese cars are more expensive. I'm not going to worry about $5000 now if it's going to save me $5000 spread in repairs over the life of the car. I'd be happy to get that deal, because I hate car problems.

Having worked for a Japanese car company, this much became clearly apparent:

The J car company I worked for was run by people who were car people who made money by creating and making good cars. Besides, their culture makes it a shameful thing to do something dishonorable like sell/make a bad design. THeir execs make as uch as 20 times that of labor.

Having also worked for an American car company, I often found that the process was purely profit driven. Never the time or budget to fix something that should never have gotten into production in the first place. Also, a lot of "How can we optimize profit via "cost cuts" and/or process optimization (read that as cost downs)". The US execs make 400 times that of labor...

One philosophy was to make money by building and selling good cars, the other is simply to make money.... Which do you think is the better long term strategy now????

Re: union comments - each and every extravagant benefit given/extracted by the unions for their members was AGREED TO BY MANAGEMENT. In its day, you could give away the store and recover it by price increases. Sadly, those days are gone and the cost structure has to change...

Three is only one thing worse than inflation and that is deflation. "Globalization", IMO is merely a nice way of saying the same thing. Be prepared for a deflation of our life styles.

Sure was fun while it lasted. Like the line uttered near the end of the movie "Risky Business" goes, "...time of your life, huh kid???".

The heli coil is not a good idea but there is an insert that works fine. I have done many of the ford 5.4L and 4.6L heads with an insert. Some are running 20lbs of boost on them with the inserts.

After reading this thread, I decided to call a good friend who is a tech at a local Ford dealership. According to him this is a HUGE problem. They see several vehicles per week needing spark plug thread repair or cylinder head replacement(if the damage is too severe)

As a tech myself, I was extremely surprised to hear that Ford spec-ed out short-reach, tapered-seat plugs for use in an aluminum head. That is just begging for trouble. The industry norm would have been 3/4"-reach gasketed plugs. In 25 years in this business I don't think I've seen anything but that in an aluminum head.

ROCKYR49, before you plunk down big coin for that new motor, my buddy informs me that Ford has not changed the design, nor do they intend to. You could probably confirm that by simply having a parts guy pull a plug for your existing engine and for a current model year engine. Compare plug length and sealing design.

For everyone. If you are going to use anti-sieze on your plugs, the most important word to remember is "sparingly". Only a very small amount is needed and going overboard can cause driveability issues.

Figures my first post here would have nothing to do with machinework. :D

Too late. The new engine is in place. At least I get a 36,000 mile warranty. Maybe instead of anti seize, I should try loctite and just not ever change them. Really though, I'll just pay it off this year and when it does it again, I'll get rid of the beast. My sister-in-law is a special assistant to the states attorney and a real good buddy's wife works for the local congressman. I'm not done with this yet. I may ge no satisfaction, but Ford is going to know my name. That's for sure.
Thanks everyone for your input.