I am wondering what everyone thinks about hand code vs useing a CAD package. I have be told that hand code is in the past and dosen't need to be learnt and I have been told that with out knowing how its done behind the sences you really don't know whats going on.

Thoughts?

It would depend on the job your doing. Myself, I love to write the code by hand. Thats the most interesting part of CNC!

I chose hand code in your Poll, only because I like the thought of being able to control everything I do, in my programs. Don't get me wrong, CAD has its place.

I think everyone that runs CNC, should be able to at least, write simple programs, by hand.


;)

Depends on:
-How much time it takes to hand code
-How much time it takes to CAM.
-Time to make Shop floor modifications vs Re-posting and re-transfering.

Also consider:
-Once you make a shop floor modification do you want to modify the CAM to match?
-If you make SF modifications and don't modify the CAM, you loose the benefit of the changes on future CAM programming. (Revisions and similar work)

Personally, I do a combination, initial program on CAM. Modify code as necessary on SF. Re-program on CAM only when too involved to do on SF. Insert the new CAM code into the as-modified SF program on a computer using a backplotter program to verify. Save As-Run programs after job is completed.
Bill

Even if you cannot be bothered to hand write it ( I don't most of the time), it is necessary to be able to read gcode and understand what a CAM system has generated for you. Like, I understand what arc center coordinates mean, but I hate figuring them out :D

Understanding gcode also pays off in understanding how to configure a post processor to generate the correct syntax of code for a particular controller.

I'm kinda glad I cut my 'cnc teeth' on old Bobcad Gold, because it made me pay attention and learn to carefully proof-read the programs ;) It seemed great at the time, and to avoid doing hand programming was my first real incentive to even get a computer in the first place.

This is the order in which I learned, and I think it is a good foundation for being a machinist or cnc programmer.

1.Learn to operate vertical mill, lathe, drill press, grinder, saws etc. This lets you see and "feel" and hear what's happening when metal is being cut.

2.Learn to set up and operate the cnc machine that you're going to use.

3.Learn to program the basics (tool changes, drill cycles, cutter comp, pockets, profiling, mdi etc.)

4.Then get into cam.


Just my opinion,
Chris

Both obviously have their advantages, with hand coding you have total control over how your program flows. But at the same time, CAM programs make programming complex parts easier and faster than hand coding.

Jon

I'm not "allowed" to hand code the machines that I program, but that hasn't stopped me from learning about G and M codes and their underlying functions. I strongly feel that those who see a CAD/CAM system as a magical black box solution are missing out on a lot of important knowledge. I also don't understand how they have a chance in heck of being able to diagnose a problem when something goes wrong.

I do mostly cad unless its just moving a few holes or a simple line cut.

I program mostly by hand as I do a lot of parametric programming. I've only made 1 program entirley from CAM and I had no problems with the program...it was just very long. Now if I have a complex profile on a part, I'll do just the profile with CAM and throw it in my program.. I also do programs for high volume production and use a lot of variables,system variables in the programs for safety, pallet/tool identification, tool life and to make offseting more user friendly for the operators..

I have one program that can run 3 part families with 82 different part numbers. The only thing the operator needs to change are rings on the fixture and enter the part number in a variable. the program does the rest... CAM could not write such a program so they both have their place...

Even if you cannot be bothered to hand write it ( I don't most of the time), it is necessary to be able to read gcode and understand what a CAM system has generated for you. Like, I understand what arc center coordinates mean, but I hate figuring them out :D

Understanding gcode also pays off in understanding how to configure a post processor to generate the correct syntax of code for a particular controller.

I'm kinda glad I cut my 'cnc teeth' on old Bobcad Gold, because it made me pay attention and learn to carefully proof-read the programs ;) It seemed great at the time, and to avoid doing hand programming was my first real incentive to even get a computer in the first place.

Hu,

I loved the CAD end of BobCADCAM when it was DOS. The CAM end sucked. The CAD part of the program was freaking brilliant because you didn't have to use the mouse ! I never hear people say how good the DOS CAD end was. Maybe I was the only one who loved using it. :D No mouse required most of the time. I even liked most of the UI.

Something happened on the CAD end with the move to Windows. :confused: What a freaking mess it is now.

In any case, being able to understand the code at the machine and edit when you have problems is a critical job skill, AFAIC.

When my mind is deep in the code and I'm standing at the machine editing or creating a program I can see the tool in my mind as cuts the part. I'm like in another world. :D

jon


"I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." ... Jimmy Hoffa

What a freaking mess it is now.
nice productive statement from last poster....guess who.



I think that knowing both hand and cad are essential.... some simpler programing is now done just by opening up a text file.....and writing...I can't say that for complexities though.
All depends if you are enjoying it ..or need to get a job done within a time constraint.
In short they both come in handy

all this talk about hand code as beeing good is not how I saw this thread going when I started it. But this has given me the eye opener I was looking for. I have had one small introduction to hand code and that is as far as any of the schools around me will take it. I have tried to read books on the topic bu you can only go so far. Can someone tell me where I can find tutorials on using hand code so I can try and get a better grasp on this greatly under estimated skill

all this talk about hand code as beeing good is not how I saw this thread going when I started it. But this has given me the eye opener I was looking for. I have had one small introduction to hand code and that is as far as any of the schools around me will take it. I have tried to read books on the topic bu you can only go so far. Can someone tell me where I can find tutorials on using hand code so I can try and get a better grasp on this greatly under estimated skill

How about finding some prints and trying to create the code to machine the part ? Download NC Plot (See the NC Plot Forum on CNCZone) and use NC Plot to verify your code. No better way to learn than creating G code hands on with a print and a way to verify what your creating.

NC Plot is still in beta and is free to use while it's still in beta.

When you get stuck post the print and where your having a problem creating the G code to machine that feature of the part.

jon

"I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." ... Jimmy Hoffa

I came back to this thread and saw this:

"When my mind is deep in the code and I'm standing at the machine editing or creating a program I can see the tool in my mind as cuts the part. I'm like in another world.

jon"

And don't you just love when some ninny comes up and disturbs you so your train of thought runs off the tracks?

"And don't you just love when some ninny comes up and disturbs you so your train of thought runs off the tracks?"

It certainly takes me awhile to get back to where my mind was when this happens. In better shops people know when not to bother you. :) When this happens on a frequent basis it's a good sign that perhaps one should move on. :)

jon

try explaining to the boss that you just ate a new 3in facemill and a $5000 piece of titanium material because you can t understand g code , mastercam and gibbs are the best but i ve seen them spit out crap that shouldn t be there , best way to learn this automizer is to maybe download a cad/cam demo (most have save diabled but fully work ) draw a part and single block every line to see where the tool is going and what it is doing , other than standing next to a machine single blocking , this will give you a better understanding than most books will , proved you know what each g code does , g code overall is pretty much generic to most machines , and for the most part your only using a handfull of codes , rapid , feed , interpolate , drill cycles , d comps ,
start with small simple programs
here is a free editor http://www.betatechnical.com/autonc.htm

free simulator http://www.cncsimulator.com/
there are loads of free and good demo software out there to help ,just look it up on google

I came back to this thread and saw this:





And don't you just love when some ninny comes up and disturbs you so your train of thought runs off the tracks?


funny thinking about some ninny throwing you off , a coupla days ago i was working on the horizontal trying to set it up , and this guy is at my machine and cannot understand to shut up
and here i am in mdi wanting to simply move b- 90. and i punched b 90. about 4 to 5 times and he says why do you keep doing that , and i turned around and said it s because you won t shut up while i m trying to consentrate ,he finally shut up and left me alone , he is a good guy but MAN some people just don t get it, i here you when you say , being in another world , it s all a process , and 100% focus

Its like music. Playing by ear is good, but you will limit yourself if you dont learn to sight read. I tell everyone get a copy of " The cnc workbook" By Frank Nanfaro,Tony Uccello and Derek Murphy. Addison Wesley Publishing Company. I struggled forever until i got this book, Its gives the most clear examples of coding you will find anywhere. With great visuals for every command. iI your like me and you need visuals to learn,this book cant be beat!!

I think you need to be able to hand code as others have said so you can read and edit it, troubleshoot etc. In college CAM the first class was one program by hand then one like part in CAM on and on the whole semester getting more and more complex with each new part. This was especially fun when going back and forth between hand writing lathe and mill code. If your interested in CAM I would recommend this way of doing it as you can visualize better in your mind what your doing in CAM or should I say what the CAM is/should be doing.

With the hand or CAM coding 100% focus is absolutely required as is the setup and all ops leading up to the actual cutting otherwise your likely to fubar something up. My wife calls it a zone :) CNC Zone perhaps. However, I am like that whenever in deep thought trying to focus concentration on what I am doing with most anything.

When you can visualize what the cutter should be doing in your mind line by line of code you can make the cutter go where you want easily and you can keep it from going where you don't. If you can't read code and you get issues when cutting even if you know what line of code the error came from you may not understand what about it is causing the problem.

So I say do both especially anyone totally new to CNC and if your new to machining in general learn manual at least a little first while working on learning to code. Its a lot like CAD in that you likely drew something by hand before over your life or at least have a rough sketch of your idea now before you sit down infront of the big empty screen.

Should you really want a challenge try to hand code the word "Successfully" as text using a cursive script ;) When you get into multiple arc segments joined to make a curve thats a LOT of arcs lilttle itty bitty ones.

I have 25 years in machining, I used to punch and read paper tape, I am now programming using MasterCam. But ............ I am very thankful that I programmed by hand first and now "know" what is going on when I read the code in the machine controller. Just like Engineering, the best Mechanical Engineer is going to be the guy who gets his hands dirty on a shop floor for a few years before he starts designing parts.

hi all, I'm fairly new to all of this so please be gentle with me!
I have just moved my copy of mastercam V9 to another computer and upon startup I am getting an error allocating string table message, when I click ok on it the mastercam system just shuts down, any ideas would be appreciated

thanks in advance
Steve

Automizer,
The hard part of hand programming is not the G code. Its the math involved in the path. If you're on a lathe its pretty simple. If you program a mill you'll need to know a little trig to find the offset on curves and angles etc. If you can program with a cad program and you know a little trig, you can hand program. The G codes are in the manual. You don't have to memorize them. Program a simple part by hand and then with your cad program and compare them. You really don't need a class unless you need help with the trig and you don't need to know trig for every program. And don't let anyone tell you writing a program by hand is some kind of black magic or voodo. It's easy to learn.

Dave

Mostly hand self tought cnc over the last three year's starting to load programs from laptop to control untill now have ben wrighting long hand or in notepad have bobcad and taken there class but am not profecent at it but is sure helpful ploting point's on arcs and angles Will son have that mastered I hope but with thirty years of making chip's It is a must to know how to do it the manual way to understand what the cnc will do A salesman said he could make a programer out of a machinest but it is much harder to make a machinest out of a programer The old way work's but being to make a few mouse click's and se what it should look like is great. Good then fast is ok but my company moto seem's to be If it can't be done the hard way it's not worth doing!!!

Yeah, it's always the smart alec ninnys who do that.. or the much younger ones who aren't as aware of that.

When I started out working in a shop making aircraft parts for the lazy bee, people like that amazed me.

The hard part is not every is exactly like you in a shop full of people.. so you work with everyone the best you can.

I still love learning G code, particularly the old fashioned FANUC style.

I'm not proficient yet at drawing, I have used an ancient copy of TurboCAD 6.5 and gotten away with it. I would love to learn at least AutoCAD LT or R14, and maybe step up to the more complicated CATIA.

I had a Demo copy of BobCAD/CAM 17 I tried out but never got far with it as I had a poor computer at the time.

So, well I still believe handwriting G-Code especially right at the controls goes hand in hand with doing it off the top of a drawing automatically.

It all depends on the amount of time and experience you have that you want to spend on completing a functional CAM experience. So, there you go.

Greg

it s a great thing to know how to hand code but the bottom line is cad/cam was created for efficiency , i can t see anyone sitting down to write 50000 lines of code , a company cannot expect to make any kind of profit and there is far too much room for error , if your poking around with cnc fine hand code or if you need to whip something off , but in the type of work i do , forget it , the parts are far too complex , the longer that machine sits while i m is programming on the control , that machine is not making money period ,when you ve got a 750 000 dollar machine you want it making chips , i ve watched guys spent over a week for one part using gibbs or mastercam because of the complexity of the part and these are well seasoned machinists , you can t do that by hand
if a guy doesn t know how to hand program then he should learn it , because if he writes a large program on cam and the program isn t wanting to run on the machine , what now?
the two go hand in hand

its absolutly silly to not be able to hand code. I can write a program at the machine for simple milling or drilling in about 1/8 the time it takes me to go and mess around on the computer. On the other hand I would not even consider starting some of my moldwork without my cad/cam system.

I said both. I've just started CNC but after doing web development and basic CAD for a few years you realize that WYSIWYG and hand coding both have their positives and negatives. Using the visual representation you can actually SEE whats going on before you start the machine but you also don't know how well the software is programming in the background until you check the code. We learned this in class after ruining a few projects that the output from our software was placing commands the machine didn't like, and this was Autodesk software. (Not that I have ANYTHING against them. )

I am wondering what everyone thinks about hand code vs useing a CAD package.....
Thoughts?
If you can't hand code, you won't be able to fix adjust code produced by a program. I hand code all 2-1/2D work and use CAM only for molds and patterns with comples curves.
Regards, Ray

Wow all this is really not what I expected, it was what I wanted to hear but really not what I expected. Looking at the poll numbers just makes me feel more like the green kid that I am. I have walked in to a job thinking I am all this and I can't read a lick of code, the second a problem comes up in the post im hooped. I have lernt little code now I can do all the 2D simple stuff but with out a machine I can macke a part with I find it very hard to do at home. I have just looked at the CNC simulator program posted above and im hopping that will help me seeing it.

A few people mentioned learning code at school, where did you go to school I have only found one class in my area and it is very basic everything is CAD/CAM here.

i remember your local , BCIT may offer something , i say this reluctantly because i'm not impressed with what i've seen come out of there as far as machinists but they do offer a cnc coarse i believe , i think they have a couple bench top cnc mills in the shop that have taken some serious beatings , but it my be worth looking into

hey automizer i recall a past conversation with you , and you had done a coarse at bcit and worked on hass sounds to me you already have the resourses but need to practice them , best thing to do is revisit your note books i m sure there is lots of info there , if you worked on hass with g code , then for the most part the rest of the other brand of machines are the same , other than optional codes , practice is the key ,theory means JACK in the real world when your faced with challenging jobs , but that basic knowledge is a must
i ve seen a lot of guys over the years who were very smart in theory , but dangerous on the practical , this isn t a trade that someone walks into knowing it all , if it was then we wouldn t be getting the money that we do , either a guy has what it takes and gets it or he dosen t , we are forever learning something new , as machines get better tooling gets better , parts get more complicated , you must be physically strong
and mentally , it s not for the weak hearted
i bit the bullet years ago and went from making really good money in construction , and started in the deburring dept,at low wage , but quickly moved up , i ve known a lot of guys who did the same ,
this is the starting point for most guys ,
to quote one guy in the forums , first you get good then you get fast

hand coding is very important to know I can't count the number of time after programming on a cad only to have a clamp or strap in the way of some positional move and need to edit at controller

I came back to this thread and saw this:

"When my mind is deep in the code and I'm standing at the machine editing or creating a program I can see the tool in my mind as cuts the part. I'm like in another world.

jon"

And don't you just love when some ninny comes up and disturbs you so your train of thought runs off the tracks?

That happens to me when I am reading code generated by a cam system because it spits out every single move, line by line! You have to really concentrate on all those "x's and "z"s especially if you dont have a verify function. See, cadcam is fantastic for complex contours or putting rads on angles to smooth corners, but you HAVE to know where these cnc monsters are going cos they WILL go where you tell them, including through the chuck or the table! I use hand code because you can pull up an old programme with canned cycles and change a few numbers - faster than redrawing the new part and retoolpathing and verifying

It is always best to learn to hand code first before learning CAM. As many point out that an understanding of what your doing and what you want to do is a building stone in CNC Programming. Not to mention again that sometimes things need to be Quickly Edited at the Control rather than going back to the computer. Hand Coding is the best way to Learn. They will always have a place in any shop.
:cheers:

First I learned how to run all of the manual machines and understood how everything worked, had to be able to make a mold on them before I could move on to the CNC. Now I do the CAM programming, although I still do a quite a of programming at the face of the machine.

Both go Hand in Hand

It would depend on the job your doing. Myself, I love to write the code by hand. Thats the most interesting part of CNC!

I think everyone that runs CNC, should be able to at least, write simple programs, by hand.


;)

Sing it from the mountian top brother! ;)

We are looking for a second programmer/op where I work. Had a guy come in, graduates with his specialist this Sept same as me. He said he couldn't really run a CNC mill because he can't get his tool paths right in MasterCam. I ask him if he can write g-code. He says no, can't g-code a mill or lathe. I thought that this is probably his problem. If he knew what the tool path should be in g-code, compensation etc, then he'd know how to set up the toolpaths in MC. It goes back to crawling before you walk and walking before you run.

I programmmed CNC for 7 years using hand code directly into the controller.After doing it for so long I found I could program by hand faster than guys using mastercam.Utilizing macros and subprogramming,you can simplify a lot of programming needs.
That being said a CAD program would be an essential for complicated programming such as contouring.But when programming for basic type work I really don't see a need for it..

I hand code only. I bought programmable casio graphic calculator (http://www.casio.co.uk/Products/Calculators/Graphical%20Calculators/CFX-9850GCPLUS/%20Technical%20Specifications/) and write a program which is useful in programming angles. Calculator asks 1. angle in degrees, for example (30 deg) 2. Z-start (2.) 3. angle start in X (100.) 4. angle start in Z (0) 5. Angle end in X (150.)
Then calculator gives me the angle end in Z, which is -43.30... and X-start 97.69...mm. Saves paper and pens.

I used to use the little orange trig tables book back when I was an apprentice in the '60's. Now I just model my part in SolidWorks and then orient it in the drawing the way it would be held on the Haas table.
Pick a corner for your origin and use ordinate dimensioning and you have all the X-Y points right on a sheet of paper.
If you don't have G41&G42, you can use the offset sketch tool to get an outline the radius of your cutter.
-Ray in FLA

This is simple to answer. If you can not hand code you are not a CNC machinist you are a CNC operator. Cad/CAM programs were developed for us typically LAZY Americans. But honestly they are for aiding programmers and not replacing them. Me 2 cents. And if you haven't figured it out I love hand code and enjoy seeing my programs work perfect, and when they don't work perfect "well" we wont talk about that. (chair)

I am an old school machinist now applying the knowledge to CNC. In the old school, one learned that a tool or machine will actually "talk to you". The size, color, form of the chips, will tell you how the machine is running. The CNC machine does not recognize these sights or sounds, only doing what it is told to do.
Sales persons will sell you a machine or a tool only to increase their paychecks. They do not care if you program on the machine or through a CAD/CAM program. They base their sales to you based on what the company they are working for without the full knowledge of machining.
I have seen to many jobs, machines crashed based on the programmers lack of experience of actual machining. What the younger generation are being taught is that the "this is what the manufacturer says that this machine will do this and this tool will do that", but they do not have the feel for the machine that is in front of them. In fact, many of the programmers today do not even know what machine their programs will be running on look like. They spend their day in front of a computer and don't even step out on the floor, so when it comes to actually making the part, have no knowledge what it may take to set up the machine, prove out their programs, fixturing, travel limits, interferences, tooling capabilities, and so on.
The bottom line is, with all the CAM programs out there, none of them are better than good old fashioned EXPERIENCE!
Steve

This is simple to answer. If you can not hand code you are not a CNC machinist you are a CNC operator.(chair)

Amen to that im sure i will eventualy get a cam system but i enjoy hand programing and really dont have a use for cam "right now" i have used it and it has its place but what gets me is these guys that come in calling them selfs programmers so the first thing i do is hand them a calculator and tell them to figure a .03 R on 1" round stock if you and right the code if they cant do that as cbndude said your an operator

I only hand code, but it's not by choice.

practically all of the machinging I do is on the castings that I make. I've not been able to find a cam program that works for me yet. All i'm looking to do is to machine certain faces, drill/tap holes, etc. So far all the progs I've seen go with the assumption you're making the entire part--machining pretty much every surface.

It took awhile to get the hang of it, but hand coding for me is the only way.

I do a mix. I mostly hand-code, except when it's complex geometry, or i need to do contouring that can't be easily broken down into straight lines and circles. Then i'll use cam, but usually only output the XYZ (and sometimes rotary) coordinates. I'll cut and paste that into notepad (my usual editor) and add my own tool change, positioning, approach and retract moves.

Funny thing is, even when i do mostly hand-coding, i will often sketch a particular feature in a CAD program , and querry it for coordinates, so i don't have to do the trig on circles and such.

Both, it's handy to be able to mod a CAM generated program or make a few short moves.

Mike944 same hear use bobcad to generate the drawing then hand code or cut and paste with note pad Have not compleatly mastered Bob cad or got the post to cooperate compleatly Like the numbering function and just havent spent enough time with it I would have to say I don't think I could turn someone lose making part's If they coulden't read or wright code It's like a salesman told me y0u can make a programer out of a machinest but It's a different thing to make a machinest out of a programer Keep typing and making chip's

I learned old school, turn the handle watch the chip, Mach. will tell you how much is too much. My company bought a HASS VF3, I took the book home and learned gcode, than they bought a Cincinnati Saber, took the book home not all of the gcodes are the same, and a different format. I have to stand at the mach. and copy hand written programs from a legal pad because they won't get me a com.. My boss has autodesk, and edgecam but doesn't Know how to use it. They just bought another HASS, tech. is supposed to set it up Monday, the owner wants to know why it is not running yet. I am the tool maker and don't know cnc but I am learning as fast as I can to keep a job. To learn gcode read the book that came with the mach.

a succesful programer ether post the program and looks through the code or has operators who are able to proof out the program and make changes as needed.
hand code is dated.......but necessary

http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/gcode/g-code.html

This is a good starting place for learning G-Code

http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/gcode/g-code.html

This is a good starting place for learning G-Code

exept that first table will realy mess with someone if they dont know what they are looking at the rest is ok

Look, it doesnt matter how its done..but is it done right. i prefer cam (why make things hard on yourself??) but the knowledge to generate a 20 thousand block code and visually inspect it (the minor things...tool changes, engages...,departures)..that helps alot. if you can write code... you can read it. it helps....

Well I don't know how to configure a post processor, and it may be my lack of understanding all the features of mastercam, but I always end up doing quite a bit of editing.

I mainly use the software to generate all my preperation/cancellation commands, tool and ofset numbers, and any complex curves, which i always put cutter comp in whether i think i need it or not.

After deleting uneccessary cycle time killers like returning to X and Y origin before every tool change, and annoying things like turning the coolant on while the z axis is at origin, I continue to optimize the program in two steps:

1. Optimize tool motion to the most efficient level I possibly can.

2.Optimize feeds and speeds from something that will produce a good looking part to absolute utmost efficiency and speed that the can be achieved taken into consideration the material, tool type, and power/speed and accuracy of the machine.

The better you are at writing code by hand and understand cutting (inserted and otherwise) tools and how they should be run, the better you are able to do this.

All of us should have our feet for walk (hand code) & who can say we should go to other cities, or going to other planets with our feet !!! (Cad/Cam)...
. . . and keep in mind just when you arrived the planet, you need fine your job with your last steps on your feet . . .

Well I don't know how to configure a post processor, and it may be my lack of understanding all the features of mastercam, but I always end up doing quite a bit of editing.

I mainly use the software to generate all my preperation/cancellation commands, tool and ofset numbers, and any complex curves, which i always put cutter comp in whether i think i need it or not.

After deleting uneccessary cycle time killers like returning to X and Y origin before every tool change, and annoying things like turning the coolant on while the z axis is at origin, I continue to optimize the program in two steps:

1. Optimize tool motion to the most efficient level I possibly can.

2.Optimize feeds and speeds from something that will produce a good looking part to absolute utmost efficiency and speed that the can be achieved taken into consideration the material, tool type, and power/speed and accuracy of the machine.

The better you are at writing code by hand and understand cutting (inserted and otherwise) tools and how they should be run, the better you are able to do this.

It is like looking into a mirror LOL.

Mainly because BCC V2007 Post processors are more complex than previous versions I am doing a lot of manual optimizing in the programs as of late.

If you want to make money, edit that Code. PC's and software don't know everything, LOL.:)

We mainly use a commercial CAM program, and I also write my own programs in C to generate G-code and verify code from other CAM programs (checking speeds, feeds, ranges and making sure H and T match).

Most of our programs are thousands of lines long. It would be insanity to write them by hand. Do people still do that?

hugo

We mainly use a commercial CAM program.....

Most of our programs are thousands of lines long. It would be insanity to write them by hand. Do people still do that?

hugo

Most of our programs are 10 to 30 lines/blocks. Less than than that if you consider that most of them use common sub programs, that we copy in.

For these we still do them by hand. Do you think there is a better way for such short programs?

When we have complex profiles, we use a dfx -> gcode convertor.

John

Do you think there is a better way for such short programs?

IMHO, the more things can be automated, the better. Humans are always prone to making mistakes, and risking an expensive machine. Although we can never be taken out entirely, computers can help up a lot, even for easy tasks. (Think how much better a calculator is than mental arithmetic).

I have to admit that, at the moment, we do write some short programs by hand to run several small jobs on one large billet. These programs have to be very carefully checked by eye. Often the machinist cuts out each job as a paper shape and arranges them to work out where to put each one (cringe). But I'm in the process of automating this too. I'm making a little program with a graphical display showing the outline of each job, and allowing the user to rotate and place jobs on the billet.

But, whatever works for you. If writing by hand works, and has a very low / zero error rate, then great!

hugo

Hah .. A few minutes later, we had a syntax error in a hand written program. Damn, I need to hurry up with that automator....

...Most of our programs are thousands of lines long. It would be insanity to write them by hand. Do people still do that?

hugo

This is a somewhat self-justifying reason. I have two programs written for the same part, one by hand one by CAM. As I recall it the hand written version was around 130 lines and the CAM version several thousand lines. The hand written version runs about 10 to 15% faster on the same machine which means that even if hand coding takes a bit longer up front on large part numbers it can be justified.

As I recall it the hand written version was around 130 lines and the CAM version several thousand lines.

It's a good point. I guess people are making all kinds of different parts, and what works for one, doesn't for another. Many of our parts contain complex curved surfaces which are basically impossible to code by hand. Plus we make them in very small quantities, so 15% more machine time is more than made up by the saving in person time.

As I recall it the hand written version was around 130 lines and the CAM version several thousand lines.

Still, that's a large program to write by hand. I wouldn't trust myself to make zero mistakes in 130 lines. Is it verified by machine before it's run?

hugo

....Still, that's a large program to write by hand. I wouldn't trust myself to make zero mistakes in 130 lines. Is it verified by machine before it's run?

hugo

That's not a large program, almost a thousand lines is a large program :) . But almost half these lines were positioning moves involving sixteen parts on a four sided rotary fixture. Some day I might ask to find out how these could be done using CAM.

And I suppose you could say I verify them on a machine, using Single Block and slow rapids. I have Haas machines and have found their graphics is quite good for verifying programs once you have learnt its limitations.

That's not a large program, almost a thousand lines is a large program :) . But almost half these lines were positioning moves involving sixteen parts on a four sided rotary fixture. Some day I might ask to find out how these could be done using CAM.

And I suppose you could say I verify them on a machine, using Single Block and slow rapids. I have Haas machines and have found their graphics is quite good for verifying programs once you have learnt its limitations.

What if you wanted to Verify something at Home (not including that you have a HAAS at Home), or on a Business Trip??? How would you verify a 4th Axis program???

What if you wanted to Verify something at Home (not including that you have a HAAS at Home), or on a Business Trip??? How would you verify a 4th Axis program???

I could do it on the Haas Simulator that I have in the home shop :D . Anyway it takes me between 3-1/2 and 5 minutes to drive to the business.

On business trips I do not have the time or energy to spend verifying programs or anything else other than the purpose of the trip.

All my 4th axis programs just use the axis for positioning not machining.

Actually I downloaded some of the simulator programs, is one called NC Plot or something like that; they all crapped out on programs with subroutines and block delete. This was a couple of years ago so maybe they are okay now or maybe it was just my computer incompetence.

I could do it on the Haas Simulator that I have in the home shop :D . Anyway it takes me between 3-1/2 and 5 minutes to drive to the business.

On business trips I do not have the time or energy to spend verifying programs or anything else other than the purpose of the trip.

All my 4th axis programs just use the axis for positioning not machining.

Actually I downloaded some of the simulator programs, is one called NC Plot or something like that; they all crapped out on programs with subroutines and block delete. This was a couple of years ago so maybe they are okay now or maybe it was just my computer incompetence.

You may want to take another look at NC Plot. Scott has done a lot with it www.ncplot.com It couldn't hurt to look anyway.

i only hand code at work but if i got something realy hard ill take the print home and use cad my company is very cheap and they do not have any cad programs ..my father works with me he has taught me everything he knows but he doesnt know any cad .. he says all you need is a machinist hand book he was a tool and die maker before he got into cnc...we set up 15 machines together .. 4 mills and 11 turning centers all with fanuc controls except one its a yasnac .....my company was looking for a set up person we had alot of people apply some straight out of college all they could do is program with cad cam ....

I have to stand at the mach. and copy hand written programs from a legal pad because they won't get me a com..

Just read this thread from the beginning and had to smile a bit at that. I remember doing the same thing in the early nineties :) The only pc in the shop was off limits except for daytime shift. Most programs were short (thankfully) but could reach 400+ lines at times. Really tried to avoid deleting the long ones!

Ten years and a career detour later, another cnc shop. Everything was milltronics/centurions and mazak/mazatrol. ie:conversational. These guys couldn't even gcode a drill cycle properly. I questioned this and was called a fossil more or less. Boss literally tore my hand away from the mazak keypad when he caught me on the iso/eia screen. Conversational felt very limiting. Funny thing is they bought mastercam a while later and my "fossilized" knowledge got some grudging respect. My great reward? Stuck doing all the programming for some ghastly old emc retrofit.

edit/ Do newer machines have much larger memories? Those 90's things sure couldn't store much.

....edit/ Do newer machines have much larger memories? Those 90's things sure couldn't store much.

What is your definition of large? 1Mb, 16Mb, 40Mb? I have machines with each of these as a memory size. For hand coded programs I think 1Mb is large, for CAM programs 40Mb may not even be enough.

This is a somewhat self-justifying reason. I have two programs written for the same part, one by hand one by CAM. As I recall it the hand written version was around 130 lines and the CAM version several thousand lines. The hand written version runs about 10 to 15% faster on the same machine which means that even if hand coding takes a bit longer up front on large part numbers it can be justified.

Geof,
I agree with you completely. I have written a number of subroutines that allow me to hand write a program for a simple part with 10 to 15 lines of new code. The total program may be 280 lines long because the starter file is 265 lines of code, already debugged. However, I wouldn't even think about hand coding some of the files that I generate from VCarve Pro. Bottom line is it depends on what you are doing and how often you are going to do it. If you intend to run a lot of a simple part it may be worth hand coding and optimizing. If you intend to make a complex part once, hand coding may not make any sense. Especially if you have access to a CAM program that gets it right.

Alan

What is your definition of large? 1Mb, 16Mb, 40Mb? I have machines with each of these as a memory size. For hand coded programs I think 1Mb is large, for CAM programs 40Mb may not even be enough.

LOL it is funny that you mention 40MB being small. The largest G-Code program that I have ever done was 4.2 million sequence blocks. It was 336MB in Text Format. It had to be DNC'd because the Control Memory only had about 16MB.
Granted the program was long due to fine surface finishes and a lot of picking around the Contours and Bosses.

The boss dreaded when a tool broke because doing a restart was a real PITA with the Cheezy DNC Software he had, LOL.

I am quite sure that anyone else that has done Mold work with Mastercam, Surfcam, or Catia has had larger Programs.

I was talking to one guy in Georgia that said that he had a 9.7 Million Sequence Block Program for a Mold on a 5 Axis Gantry Mill. He used Surfcam.

Some of these programs can get very big. Thank the Guy that invented CAD/CAM LOL.

I have never used a CAD/CAM program .Edge Cam demoed there program for me but I wasn't impessed, it spit out 230000 characters of code that wasn't going to make a good part.My "hand" program was only 7000.With newer controls I dont see the need for it.If your contol has subprograming,macro programing,coordinate rotation,cutter comp,ect.,and you SPEAK Gcode whats the point?As far as faster I don't know, I've wrote as many as 100
programs in a week.Then again maybe Im biased ,I'm computer illiterate
it has too many buttons.

all you all wrote is true... an automatized g code generating is nice.... but...
i made some AC grill of cypress, and that has about 150 little star and even a picture of a horsehead, and all was cut troughly oh the 11 mm thick wood, some pattern in the pic was thinner, there the hole ended in engraving... i used thre kind of tool..
the basic problem was when the program optimizing that is terrible for me...
i had to cut each hole in several steps, the program i can afford that is randomly cut a deep in several steps after that start in an another shape....
so i had to manipulate manually.... for example the starz i made one by hand, and just copy this one all around...
the automated toolpath gave almost thrretimes machine time...so a few hour editing came back after a few pieces of this job...
but also true, a toolpath with several arch better to leave to the computer to calculate them...
this time just try to convert from absolute to increment with EXCEL program :-)
this is a real fun, the whole cnc problemcircle...

We do injection mold tools. I use conversational on the pin plates and base work on a VM2 Hurco. Complex 3D is done on a cam package. You have to have both with what I do.

Seems that most of us need both Hand and CAM.:rainfro:

Keep the posts comming!!!!!!:)

I have been working in the tool and die trade for about 7 years and have been programming and setting up cnc equipment for about 6 years. I started out hand writing everything and I saw the bottleneck that created in the shop. When the shop finally progressed into cam programs I also saw the limitations they have.

I have been working in a job shop for the past 2 years. We have a mix of milltronics and fanuc controls. About 20 machines in all. I find that I will rely more on cam software for single parts or short run projects. For longer production programs I may cam a program and then hand edit it to get what I want.

For our turning centers however I have found that using the cam software to generate say a finish turning pass and copy that into my handwritten stock removal cycle program is the most efficient way to program. I also found that I was able to take a barfed part that took 40 seconds to run and edit the program to get the cycle down to 17 seconds per part.

Computers are great for doing all of the tasks that we as programmers look at as being tedious or repetetive. But thats all they can do. We still have to be there to pick up where the computer leaves off.

Atomizer.
Try this website
Center for CNC Education
www.home.columbus.rr.com/hputz/
This guy is old school all the way!
You can buy his videos or what I did was rent them from SmartFlix online
Hope this helps!

Paul

In the past I have used CAM to write each tool path. And the final edit was by hand. Such porgrams were pretty much error free. Today, I write a operation list (Fixture offset numbers and tool numbers), then the setup instructions needed to do those operations. Then the tool list. Then I write the program by hand. And, yes, I use CAM as needed. (For spot drilling, drilling, reaming, boring and the like, takes no more time to code by hand than to use CAM and post and edit. Also includes squaring up, face milling, sloting and most straight cuts and corner radii all by hand. [Vector calculations using a calculator.])

A skilled operator who can set a tool, can setup one of my programs.

The main problem with hand edited programs are the typos. Which using CAM and cut and past usually fixes 99.9% this.

Another good use for the editor in the software is converting programs from one control to another, for example from Fanuc to Okuma or HAAS with thru spindle coolant codes. I use the 'replace all" option to change all G43's to G56's in one click, and all G91G28Z0's to Z50's, etc.--to go from Fanuc to Okuma.

I do mostly hand coding, since most my programs are for high-volume production environments, emphasis always on minimizing cycle time. For complicated geometries, CAM is nice. However, I feel it is essential that anyone programming a CNC understands what the code will make the machine do. Things like G64/G61 can really have an impact on your part quality if you use them in the wrong place.

My problem is similar but in a different direction. I prefer my CAD/CAM for speed. I still do hand programming because we have some very old machines that will only accept hand text input. I would hate to have to hand write some of our more complex parts. By comparison to mold work ours is nothing, maybe 2M, but we still have machines with only 65K memory. We have hand-me-down computers on the shop floor that I am supposed to trust forn DNC. We do find a way to make it work though.