A simple volume milling seq. time took to generate about 3 mins.
rgh and finish in this op 6061 al.

Ill try to explain in under one page

In Pro e volume milling is creating a solid mass around features on reference part that you want to machine puting excess material before the reference part using any shapes to create the mass then trimming volume to reference part leave more or less excess to decide on how many passes are need to rough to the part and after roughing is done there are parameters to finish all in one sequence.

I'm not quite sure what the function of VOLUME is. Could you elaborate?

'Rekd

Originally posted by mace
A simple volume milling seq. time took to generate about 3 mins.
rgh and finish in this op 6061 al.

Ill try to explain in under one page

In Pro e volume milling is creating a solid mass around features on reference part that you want to machine puting excess material before the reference part using any shapes to create the mass then trimming volume to reference part leave more or less excess to decide on how many passes are need to rough to the part and after roughing is done there are parameters to finish all in one sequence.

Good to see someone who's passionate about his software. I've seen your posts and suggest you might try to explain things a little better. You are kind of hard to follow. Anyways I think you are trying to say in your other posts that ProE machines faster because it will create stock shapes other than squares and cylinders and will calculate from those shapes. Just my 2 cents, but in Gibbs you can designate any shape as stock or as a fixture too, and I assume other systems have similar capabilities too. And looking at your example here, any system will machine those same toolpaths. Feeds & speeds are largely what will determine machine times here.
I've seen ProE in action and I like the cad side, Which I'm considering to switch over from SolidWorks, but I wasn't impressed with the cam side.

cm :)

Originally posted by cadman
Good to see someone who's passionate about his software. I've seen your posts and suggest you might try to explain things a little better. You are kind of hard to follow. Anyways I think you are trying to say in your other posts that ProE machines faster because it will create stock shapes other than squares and cylinders and will calculate from those shapes. Just my 2 cents, but in Gibbs you can designate any shape as stock or as a fixture too, and I assume other systems have similar capabilities too. And looking at your example here, any system will machine those same toolpaths. Feeds & speeds are largely what will determine machine times here.
I've seen ProE in action and I like the cad side, Which I'm considering to switch over from SolidWorks, but I wasn't impressed with the cam side.

cm :)

+ 1 on all accounts.

Mastercam does the stock shape as well. It also does, (I believe, judging from the vague description of volume,) that kind of pocketing, as well as many many others. It also does what it calls Re-Machining or RestMilling, where you can define 'cut' stock either by a previous operation, or by a user defined tool size. It will check areas that can't be hit with the big tool, and hit only those areas with the smaller one.

How are the posts with ProM? In Mastercam, you can control literally EVERYTHING, including ways of launching external programs, (Excel, and populate it with tool and part data for setup sheets), custom drill cycles which I can use to generate 'drop-stops', engraving cycles, deep hole peck drilling using IJK, etc etc etc without ANY edits to the NC files.

It's virtually limitless what you can do with it. The learning curve is months, not years, it's affordable, it's extremely popular with one of the best support groups I've seen for ANY cad/cam software.

The only thing I've seen so far is the associativity with rev changes, which Mastercam does, but probably not as well as ProE with ProM. But to me that's not an issue. The cost savings would take me decades to justify spending that kind of money.

:wave:

'Rekd

About the price difference Our MasterCam dealer just gave me quote of $12,900 for level three Plus 2 to 3,000 for post that works in 4-5,axis He said that" it will not give good toolpaths in 4 to 5 axis without this post."(prizim Eng. P.A.)

Thats alot of change from what i understand Gibbs is up past that $20,000 for full package solids and every everything and not really a good design software ,But i never used it that is just hearsay. (can someone post prices for Gibbs)

My quote from Proe today is $3995. Many modules are included in this design foundation Prodetail, proreport to name a few and $10,999 for Pro nc and VERICUT level 2 this package is indexing to 4 and 5 axis live tooling lathes 4 axis EDM GPOST post processing GREAT program $8,000 if you buy it from Austin NC you can create custom 5 axis post in 15 minutes all done in a JAVA console

Full Blown NC Machining is $20,000 but you get level full Vericut also and Expert Machinst (seperate machining programfor 2 1/2 axis)

nice bundled computer and proe for industry use
http://www.thepentagoncorp.com/Pages/buyonline3.html

For A company Buying software I dont see Pro e as being an outragously huge price difference (plus you get other programs built into nc machinig)

Our Pro e paid for itself in 6 monthes of owning it because of the new clients it attracked that wanted to to bussiness with us because we owned it and used it.

But what it comes down to is preference If i never used Pro e I would be posting How great mastercam is.

MasterCam is good Software for home users and small shops I still do like it for simple jobs.

But all large machine shops here in Maryland have switched to Pro e I have worked for many of the large Companys And everyones buzz is Proe.


P.S. I dont know how to do the stock removel then in master Cam Can you post a demontration please i Would like to see this

Mace

Wow, those prices are considerable less than I remember from a couple years ago.

To do remachining, create 2 pocket or contour ops, 1 with .500 em, the second with .250 em. Create geometry with .125 radii. Generate the toolpath with T1, then with T2.

In the dialog for the second tool, look on the bottom left of the second tab, you'll see a drop down list. Select Remachining from it and click the button below it and set your settings. (You can turn off the display and confirmation of the results)

'Rekd

No not remachining all cam systems do that.
You said "Mastercam does the stock shape as well. It also does,"

Stock removel remove the stock like you said in your post so that stock shows material removed for referencing on future operations or sequences

OIC, my bad..

This is done via .STL files in verify. You can either define your own shape, (fixturing, clamps, vises etc), and export it as an STL, or you can use the previously cut operation and save it as an STL. (There's really no need for the latter method, because you can verify all operations at once using custom WCS')

When defining your own stock shape, create a model of the fixture, then convert it to .stl. Then in Verify, open the options, on the top left there's a check box for FILE under Shape. Click it and select your stl file, bada boom, bada bing!

'Rekd

This is what i am talking about in this exploded veiw
Green = stock part was once rectangle in the begining of nc program

Each sequence has removed material from stock.

If i go back to seq 3 material removels from 4 to end of part become blanked you cant see them if i do a vericut nc check in seq #3 all models all AUTOMATICLY exported to vericut g code is loaded and material removels are suppresed (blanked ) from 4 to end of program this allows you to watch one seq. cut at a time. And NOT have to watch the whole operation (which is to time consuming.



As for Cadcams statement " any system will machine those same toolpaths. "

You are incorrect Myself and 4 other programmers have been tying all morning to get a similar toolpath in MasterCam 9.0 is failing during 3 degree ramp in to 2 pockets and cuttercomp on 6 different features we program pockets in mastercam one at a time for this reason quit time consuming.

Ok rather than doing feature by feature comparison of cam sytems let me to the best of my ability try explain the basics of pro nc.

As i feel like i must answer all remarks about what i am demonstating it is to time consuming

The reason for these posts are to Educate anyones interest in this product.

P.M. me if you would like detailed graphic info by email

No Mr. Cad cam I will have comparison of features side by side Examples of proe to mastercam not complexity of parts As i can program anything in mastercam that i program in pro e As lead programmer of my the company i work for i must stay up todate in mastercam to train the people that use it that dont know how to update themselves so i am extremly fluent and prepared to show honest differences between the two packages.

In no way shape or form am I tring to get in a pissing battle with anyone what you will see is facts only.
Let the people that read learn the differences and make there own opinions and go from there.
Pro engineering wildfire is avilable to anyone for none profit use (home use)for under 500. usd.
So ithink you will see alot of interesting things start to happen in this forum in the future and I will be here to make sure the facts are in .
And to help others learn and troubleshoot there issues


Also I believe this is ptc forum not mastercam or Gibbs!!!!

Relax, it's ok... :rolleyes:

You said you wanted a comparison, you're getting one. I'm curious about how well they compare, and for me to have to post in the MC forum to compare it's features to something in THIS forum is, to say the least, non-productive..

Now I think I'm getting the jist of what you're trying to say after 3 or 4 tries; You can skip over toolpaths in verify, but still have the stock cut away as if that had ran already. Correct? Yes, you can do this in mastercam; as I said, when you run an operation, save as stl, then use that as stock. (A couple more clicks, but it can be done)

'Rekd teh let's keep it friendly, shall we?

stock removal in pro/man is fully paramatric. it will update when there is changes. when you have a very complicate part with hundreds of stock removal as you go along if something changes all the stock removal will change. am i correct Mace?

Originally posted by mace

As for Cadcams statement " any system will machine those same toolpaths. "

You are incorrect Myself and 4 other programmers have been tying all morning to get a similar toolpath in MasterCam 9.0 is failing during 3 degree ramp in to 2 pockets and cuttercomp on 6 different features we program pockets in mastercam one at a time for this reason quit time consuming.

How about letting us look at those toolpaths you say are
bombing out. Upload it to the ftp site, so us Mcam users
can see what your talking about.


PEACE:D

Originally posted by mace
This is what i am talking about in this exploded veiw
Green = stock part was once rectangle in the begining of nc program

Each sequence has removed material from stock.

If i go back to seq 3 material removels from 4 to end of part become blanked you cant see them if i do a vericut nc check in seq #3 all models all AUTOMATICLY exported to vericut g code is loaded and but material removels are suppresed (blanked ) from 4 to end of program this allows you to watch one seq. cut at a time. And NOT have to watch the whole operation (which is to time consuming.



As for Cadcams statement " any system will machine those same toolpaths. "

You are incorrect Myself and 4 other programmers have been tying all morning to get a similar toolpath in MasterCam 9.0 is failing during 3 degree ramp in to 2 pockets and cuttercomp on 6 different features we program pockets in mastercam one at a time for this reason quit time consuming.

Also I believe this is ptc forum not mastercam or Gibbs!!!!
So when i post something for ptc I believe it is not Appropriate to start comparing other sytems to it.

The reason for these posts are to Educate anyones interest in this product.

I am a very calm person

But quite frankly since the beginning of reading and posting in this thread i have sensed Negitivaty from certain other members posts on Proe and what i wanted to show you guys.

As i am fortunate to have full blown proe and Mastercam at my desk i thought i could shed some lite on differences but i keep having to answer to MasterCam does that. And things of that nature.

The truth is I know MasterCam very well And it is very Limited in comparison to Proe design side and pro nc toolpaths side


This info is for you YOU take what you can get out of it And decide


The Future Is Proe

Originally posted by pronc
stock removal in pro/man is fully paramatric. it will update when there is changes. when you have a very complicate part with hundreds of stock removal as you go along if something changes all the stock removal will change. am i correct Mace?

Yes Pro nc I was tring to demonstate on simple part so that people can see and understand if i put a complex part on this web page you can not see a thing.( tried)

A little help if you could Pronc I feel abit under attack from the mastercam gurus

And I just want to show them the power that this software contains but it will be very difficult under these conditions.

I guess that is why youve be kind of silent
Your the smart pro e user

mace

Mace,

i'm a mastercam user myself. matter of fact i've over 10 years in mastercam and only 4 years in pro/man. i've used to think mastercam was the king until pro/man came along. but i will never say pro/man is better than mastercam or vice versa. simply because i can't say i know everything about mastercam or pro/man. if it is so how can i surely say which one is better? i am very much crazy about cad cam software. to me they are the tools for the job. the more i know how to handle them the easier the job will be. i just use what i have on hand and get the job done. heck may be my next job will be using autocad, bobcad, turbocad etc. never know. by the way, are you using expertmachinist over there? did you upgrade to wildfire yet? we're getting ready for it. our main corcern here is the new intralink. i'm going nut trying to get the post for our 4 axis wedm.


ps: this is solely my opion please pardon me if i offend anyone in anyway.


a mind is like a parachute. it works best when open.

Well said Pronc
Yes im in Wildfire its great dont even look for a post you can make one in Gpost in 10 minutes they updated and works amazingly well.

expert machinist yes but i dont use it.
Mace

Originally posted by mace
I am a very calm person

But quite frankly since the beginning of reading and posting in this thread i have sensed Negitivaty from certain other members posts on Proe and what i wanted to show you guys.

As i am fortunate to have full blown proe and Mastercam at my desk i thought i could shed some lite on differences but i keep having to answer to MasterCam does that. And things of that nature.

The truth is I know MasterCam very well how And it is very Limited in comparison to Proe design side and pro nc toolpaths side


This info is you YOU take what you can get out of it And decide


The Future Is Proe

Again, relax..

I'm just trying to figure out what ProM can do that Mastercam cant. I'm not being negative to you or ProM. I'm just asking questions and stating facts.

I'm not being closed minded at all. In fact, just the opposite. I've used more cad and cad/cam softwares than I can count on both hands, so I am in no way being judgemental. I fully realize that each software is different and has things about it that others don't, for better or worse.

I've never used ProM, so I'm just trying to figure out what it can do. Nothing more, nothing less. I love to learn new things, but can't affort ProM, so I have to rely on you.

Also, what you're sensing is NOT negativity, it's skepticism. I don't know that software, so to hear someone touting how much better it is, and how it's going to take over the world, I have to ask; "How". Prove it to me. Until you can show me things I can't do in Mastercam to achieve the results you achieve in ProM, I'm not convinced. It doesn't mean I can't be convinced, that's up to you.

So take a deep breath, relax, and lets try to keep this civil. We're not here to bash you, we're here to learn. (and educate if needed with certain mis-conceptions)

:rainfro:

'Rekd teh future is Mastercam until proven otherwise... :D

Rekd
You have the begining of comprehensive manul in your email get started I hope to have you trained in under a month haha
mace

Originally posted by mace
Rekd
You have the begining of comprehensive manul in your email get started I hope to have you trained in under a month haha
mace

My first impression is that it forces you to think ahead. Very good idea, one that is rarely used by many individuals. This in and of itself is a great start, but will definately require dedication to learning the software.

I haven't been thru all of them yet, but I went thru the setup sheet documentation. Looking forward to seeing more.

:cheers:

'Rekd

Rekd
I asure you once you've gotton in there and are doing basic toolpaths you will be overwelmed with how well you can control your tool to do exactly what you want with great ease you just need a little coaching and that will be pronc and myselfs job.

Ok, here we go...

I've gone thru the pre-drill avi and saw a surface, (point cloud actually) being drug with the mouse around a point, changing the vortex of the surface where the drill goes in.. (ref. predrill_bmx.avi at about 75-80% from start). Very interesting for prototyping or customizing blends etc...

Also, the interface looks somewhat similar to Cimitron in function and navigation. (I've made some nice trodes with Cimitron, very capable and hard to learn software..) I can imagine the versitility just by looking at some of the menus displayed in the avi files and reading some of the doc files.

..get started I hope to have you trained in under a month..

You've definately got my attention, but damn that learning curve... :drowning:

'Rekd

I want to see:(

PEACE:D

I am wondering how you guys are doing with the training manuls and info i sent you do you enjoy it are you more interested now than ever ?

Or not ?

Mace

Very cool Mace,
As soon as I have a little morre time to spend w/ it I'll post

PEACE:D

The place that I work has pre-e and master cam both. I am not impressed with the cam side of pro-e. the programer tried to get good tool paths and did most of the time. but it took a lot of time. So we looked at master cam to do 2d parts in the shop. We got a 30 day evaluation. In that 30 days the guy in the shop ( with out any experience with master cam or 3d programming ) was programming all the parts 2d and 3d. Now we use pro-e to design with and master cam to machine with.

Is master cam better than pro-e? NO! Was it better for us? Yes.
It let the designer do the desinging and the shop do the machine programming.
For us master cam was better for machining Than pro-e.

ssaults
The thing is in a modern day machine shop programmers are facing the task of modeling the part from a print many goverment organizitions will not give solid models to venders for the fact of security.
So if you want to stay in bussiness these days you better have someone that can design and model parts, fixtures quickly and accuratly so that it will not effect your quote.

I know there are easier progams out there then pro e, But pro e is meant for the serious manufacters that need a one stop software one that does it all from design to controlling the cmms that inspect the parts

If i did not no how to design and solid model a part in an advanced software I would not have a job after all it is the year 2003 we all need to stay up to date in technolgy or China and India will take all the work from the U.S.A.

If i could offer some advice to your programmer that uses MasterCam.
Keep At It in Pro e It will all come together someday and it will benifiet him and your company.

Mace,
Thanks for the reply. We have 3 seats of pro e that we design with but we let the shop do the programming they know how they can machine the part better than the designers. They know what tool they have what each machine can do ect. When we tried to use pro e for both design and machining the shop was waiting for programs or for the programs to be changed, so that slowed the slowed the shop down. Know we have one man programming for 2 pro e designers sometimes 3. Most of the time designers are not the best at machining (but not all the time).

I was doing the MasterCam programming I did it for over 1yr. now I am one of the pro e designers. pro e is VERY GOOD at design. I have over 15 yr. machining experience not much design experience so I am slow at it. The one that is doing the MasterCam programming now is new at programming as I was.
he is picking it up fast, a lot faster than I am pro e.

My point is for us MasteCam in the shop was best for it is easy to learn and use.

THanks.

As for Cadcams statement " any system will machine those same toolpaths. " Please show me this post from which I made this statment.

I do not remember or see this statment from me.

thanks cadcam

Jay,

Post #3 from Cadman not cadcam.

I think he just mistaked you for cadman.:)

Yea sorry
I did think it was cadcam sorry man
mace

I just wanted to make sure ,that for some dumb resion that I did not make such a statment.
Just did not seem like me..:)

all along i was thinking it was the same person once again my Apologies
mace

ssaults,

yes, i used to have the same thought. for 2 years all the mastercam users in here were fighting with management to resist pro/man. now we are proe all the way. from design tooling, mold, detailing to programing soon cmm (i hope). few weeks ago a senior member told me he tried to use mastercam just for fun and couldn't do it. he said he so used to parametric world now.