You are bound to get some vibration the amplitude seems to me is dependant on the unsupported length of your leadscrew .the leadscrew sags due to its own weight and therefore creates an off center , center of gravity and in turn a whip in the driveshaft. mjh

that is why we try to preload the leadscrew to pull on it and help prevent some of the sag and whipping as you mentioned, if you look at Jays thread he used a spring type preload and stated it helped.

ok I havn't bugged in a while so here I go again when are you going to show us your new project LOL

Rob

It sounds like you may have assembled something wrong or bolts are not in correctly. The only "give" I notice in the z carriage is when the u-bolts have loosened off and need to be adjusted.

David

so if you grab the router holder and with somewhat of significant force try to move it it stays there like a rock? I can shoot photos tonight to see if I did something wrong but it's pretty much bang bang bang, I referenced off pics of yours joes and sparky and the manual..

that is why we try to preload the leadscrew to pull on it and help prevent some of the sag and whipping as you mentioned, if you look at Jays thread he used a spring type preload and stated it helped.

mine is much better now than it was previously in the x rod.. mine was just bent.. I still get whip and a little bounce but nothing that translates into the cut, all of my vibration now seems to be coming from the give on the z axis and some of the motor vibration that carries over from the z,y motors. I believe david purchased dampers? Did those help?

The only movement I get is the carriage on the y axis which I need to adjust.

David

Hey Brian,

I double checked my machine tonight before I came home to make sure all was as I left it from my last adjustments. So here's my two cents worth. :)

Prior to cutting out my parts for the control cabinet I did some checking to make sure I had everything adjusted. After moving my z-axis carriage back and forth across the y-axis I grabbed the router to see if it was ok. It had a little play in it and it turned out to be the y-axis bearing adjustment. I would have bet money that I had everything set to go! I made the adjustments and then made my cuts. It is still in great shape. The only other area I had problems with was when my acme nuts came loose on the bottom of the z-axis acme rod. When that happened I could move the entire router holder up and down about 1/8" inch. That was my fault as I did not tighten them down good enough to start with. I've not had a problem with the u-bolts except for when they were first installed. I actually had them a little two tight.

Hope you get it figured out! You've got some pretty nice signs made and we'd all like to see more! :D

:D I have almost a dozen sitting on my bench ready for stain, sealer and lacquer , and some wide panels glued up for some larger stuff this weekend, keeping busy, little sleep at night needless to say lol.. all the problems you mentioned I too had and I fixed those already, the play I'm talking about has nothing to do with the bearings or acme nuts, it just has give to the lower half of the plate.. I've plunged hardwoods and all kinds of cuts and haven't had major problems, but I Know I can get it better and produce faster better results.. I'm by no means disappointed, I never even thought the machine could be completed in my own two hands, and it has, I'm overwhelmed with the ability it has brought me. And I only have one man to thank for that. I just feel it has more to it, more I can work on to make it better and work for my needs. It's proven, just have to work on adjusting more. I've been thinking of making that back of the router holder (mdf) out of alum and having someone mill it up for me and see what happens, but it might be unnecessary since none of you get the same things I'm seeing.

that is why we try to preload the leadscrew to pull on it and help prevent some of the sag and whipping as you mentioned, if you look at Jays thread he used a spring type preload and stated it helped.

To get any real help in this regard would involve a pretty heavy preload seems to me which in turn would really invole very high loads on the bearing housings .

The obvious solution is of course slowing down the rpm of the drive shaft . Mulling around with a stiffer drive shaft i am not sure of the answers without running some numbers .Using a Material with a higher E would help but probably by a small amount. Running a larger diameter driveshaft would be stiffer thus the offset cg would be less but due to it's higher mass the centrifugal force would be higher and may even aggravate the problem .

So we are pretty much with the first solution slowing down the rpm of the drive shaft. I do not have my machine up and running , just had to have a bunch of trees cut so my hobbycnc bucks went out the window. I have completed the gantry however.

There remains one other solution, that being reducing the unsupported leadscrew length . I had in mind a trailing bearing in the x axis and possiblty in the y axis

There remains one other solution, that being reducing the unsupported leadscrew length . I had in mind a trailing bearing in the x axis and possiblty in the y axis

this would possibly reduce the X-Axis travel? to help with any whipping you can add another anti-bearing block on the other side of the lower torsion box, and i also tested having two bearings spaced 5-6 inches from each other on each end of the leadscrew, which helps to hold leadscrew straight. so to sum up the leadscrew would have 6 places of contact (two each end and two on gantry.

Joe

this would possibly reduce the X-Axis travel? to help with any whipping you can add another anti-bearing block on the other side of the lower torsion box, and i also tested having two bearings spaced 5-6 inches from each other on each end of the leadscrew, which helps to hold leadscrew straight. so to sum up the leadscrew would have 6 places of contact (two each end and two on gantry.

Joe

Hi Joe, in my scheme yes, the axis travel would be reduced by the length of the intermediate bearing assemblies, one at each end.

Correct me if you see I am wrong but I anticipate the worst case situation is in the longest axis and when the gantry in this case is at one end or the other of it's travel . What remains is the longest unsuported drive shaft length. What I was considering was an intermediate bearing that would halve that length. I was considering two interconnected bearings [basically sleeves]roughly half the axis travel distance between them. The assy would be attached to a guide on the underside of the torsion box and driven by the lower gantry torsion box. when the gantry reaches the end of its travel the trailing bearing of the assy will be at the midpoint of the "unsupported" leadscrew. When the gantry returns to the other end of it's travel initially nothing happens and the trailing bearing stays where it is until the gantry contacts it then the other bearing becomes the trailing bearing.

You idea of adding an additional spaced bearing might well solve the problem in the Y axis and if not completely should at least eleviate it . possibly putting the antibacklash nuts in tension either side of the cage should reduce the unsupported length and in that case the percent supported is fairly high as opposed to the x axis where it probably will not make that much difference . While on the subject tightening even slightly the anti backlash assy really surprised me how much more torque is required to drive the leadscrew........regards mike

Hi Joe, in my scheme yes, the axis travel would be reduced by the length of the intermediate bearing assemblies, one at each end.

Correct me if you see I am wrong but I anticipate the worst case situation is in the longest axis and when the gantry in this case is at one end or the other of it's travel . What remains is the longest unsuported drive shaft length. What I was considering was an intermediate bearing that would halve that length. I was considering two interconnected bearings [basically sleeves]roughly half the axis travel distance between them. The assy would be attached to a guide on the underside of the torsion box and driven by the lower gantry torsion box. when the gantry reaches the end of its travel the trailing bearing of the assy will be at the midpoint of the "unsupported" leadscrew. When the gantry returns to the other end of it's travel initially nothing happens and the trailing bearing stays where it is until the gantry contacts it then the other bearing becomes the trailing bearing.

You idea of adding an additional spaced bearing might well solve the problem in the Y axis and if not completely should at least eleviate it . possibly putting the antibacklash nuts in tension either side of the cage should reduce the unsupported length and in that case the percent supported is fairly high as opposed to the x axis where it probably will not make that much difference . While on the subject tightening even slightly the anti backlash assy really surprised me how much more torque is required to drive the leadscrew........regards mike

PS yes Joe the double bearing idea of your should basically change the leadscrew from basically a siply supported beam to an encastre one which will reduce the deflection and there for the thus the tendance to whip...

I assume that the problem you are having with leadscrew whip occurs at higher rpms. That being the case, another possible solution would be to switch to a leadscrew with a faster pitch, like an 8 TPI-2 start. You would be able to get the feedrates you want with a lower rpm where the screw wouldn't whip as much. This would also keep the motors in their best torque range since steppers have better torque at low rpm. Other than changing the screws and leadnuts this would require no additional engineering.

I assume that the problem you are having with leadscrew whip occurs at higher rpms. That being the case, another possible solution would be to switch to a leadscrew with a faster pitch, like an 8 TPI-2 start. You would be able to get the feedrates you want with a lower rpm where the screw wouldn't whip as much. This would also keep the motors in their best torque range since steppers have better torque at low rpm. Other than changing the screws and leadnuts this would require no additional engineering.

Yes that has been discussed a few times already and that is what Jay and Rick have done already. Personally i do not get the whipping as much as others, just depends on quality of leadscrews to. I'm not trying to get into a debate or discussion on which leadscrew is better because you can see that in just about every thread on the zone. I believe most everyone knows or agree's that fewer tpi is best. For most home and hobby machines alot of people are happy with 60-80 ipm cutting.

Also another thing to consider if someone want faster feedrates is the spendel, which would need to be stronger h.p. but This machine works fine and for the basic unit cost is a factor to some people. I would say Jay has spent the most on his so far with his mods.

Alot of brians whipping was due to a bend or warmed leadscrew he got originally that way, he replaced it and it helped his situation somewhat.

Joe

Yes that has been discussed a few times already and that is what Jay and Rick have done already. Personally i do not get the whipping as much as others, just depends on quality of leadscrews to. I'm not trying to get into a debate or discussion on which leadscrew is better because you can see that in just about every thread on the zone. I believe most everyone knows or agree's that fewer tpi is best. For most home and hobby machines alot of people are happy with 60-80 ipm cutting.

Also another thing to consider if someone want faster feedrates is the spendel, which would need to be stronger h.p. but This machine works fine and for the basic unit cost is a factor to some people. I would say Jay has spent the most on his so far with his mods.

Alot of brians whipping was due to a bend or warmed leadscrew he got originally that way, he replaced it and it helped his situation somewhat.

Joe

It seems that several people have had problems with bent leadscrews. I guess my thinking was that if every leadscrew you buy has a slight bend, it would be better to have one that turns slower. Even if you didn't plan to feed above 60-80 ipm, if you had to go to the trouble/expense of building some type of intermediate support system, wouldn't it just be easier to go to the faster pitch screw? Certainly you would need to weigh the cost and time involved for each to decide which method to go with.

It seems that several people have had problems with bent leadscrews. I guess my thinking was that if every leadscrew you buy has a slight bend, it would be better to have one that turns slower. Even if you didn't plan to feed above 60-80 ipm, if you had to go to the trouble/expense of building some type of intermediate support system, wouldn't it just be easier to go to the faster pitch screw? Certainly you would need to weigh the cost and time involved for each to decide which method to go with.

Yes I agree as i have mentioned in several of the other threads/builds of this machine. Its an individuals choice.

Ahh the ole battle with whip. A few things have helped my machine over come whip. First was my spring loaded nuts I put on my ends. (I'm currently working on a new setup of this for my new screws) Second putting another block with a nut on the other side of the gantry bottom helped a lot. I just installed new 1/2-8 two-start screws and I need to install this second block. Even with the 1/2-8 two start I get whip. I just think that unless you're going to spend big bucks and get ballscrews of some huge dia. everyone's going to have to live with whip.

I also think (and this has been said many times before) that you need to keep the ipm speed realistic. A good example is with my current motors (nema 34s 760oz) and power supply (54vdvc 15amp) and my new screws (1/2-8 two start) I can push my machine faster then it should really go. If I tell it to go 200ipm it'll go that speed. It'll also start to destroy itself too. My advice is if you've got 1/2-10 screws don't try to go much past 50ipm. I know a lot of people can and do go faster then this but any faster and you're going open up the door for whip. If you've got 1/2-8 two starts or 1/2-10 two starts, I wouldn't go much faster then 90-100ipm. Again any faster and you'll start to see whip. It's just the physics of the thing.

Here's a good test if you've got whip issues. Drive your machine 30ipm. Got whip? Now try 40ipm. Got whip? Keep going till you start to get some whip. Whatever that speed is where you see whip knock 5 or 10 ipm and I'd say that's your top end without whip. It sounds stupid but really that's about it.

It's a dance between motor size, power supply size, screw dia, screw pitch, preloading amounts, gantry weight, screw span, screw weight and machine alignment. You just have to find the right combination that works for you. But keep in mind there's going to be a physical max to how fast you can spin that screw before you hit a sweet spot and she starts jumping.

Excellent write up dighsx.
Ahh the ole battle with whip.
<snip>
It's a dance between motor size, power supply size, screw dia, screw pitch, preloading amounts, gantry weight, screw span, screw weight and machine alignment. You just have to find the right combination that works for you. But keep in mind there's going to be a physical max to how fast you can spin that screw before you hit a sweet spot and she starts jumping.

Nicely said Jay, Thanks.

And still waiting with anticipation to see your new machine configuration.

Do the folks with bent leadscrew problems preload the screws. I would think this would get rid of at least some o the problem.

Wear on pipes:

A few people have reported wear on their pipes, I have been looking at a few alternatives. 440c would be nice, but it's a bit cost prohibitive at $200 per 6" length (mcmaster-carr No. 1991T24). 316 comes in at 89785K84 $142.68 for 6ft, But I saw some half hardened stainless for about $60 per 6ft, but I can't find it now. Although 316 schedule 10 pipe comes in at about $80 per 6ft.


There are probably better priced places than Mcmaster too.

When you think about it, if this is a longer term solution to the pipe wear problem then it may be worth the extra up front instead of replacing pipes at about $20-30 a shot every few years.

Do the folks with bent leadscrew problems preload the screws. I would think this would get rid of at least some o the problem.

Wear on pipes:

A few people have reported wear on their pipes, I have been looking at a few alternatives. 440c would be nice, but it's a bit cost prohibitive at $200 per 6" length (mcmaster-carr No. 1991T24). 316 comes in at 89785K84 $142.68 for 6ft, But I saw some half hardened stainless for about $60 per 6ft, but I can't find it now. Although 316 schedule 10 pipe comes in at about $80 per 6ft.


There are probably better priced places than Mcmaster too.

When you think about it, if this is a longer term solution to the pipe wear problem then it may be worth the extra up front instead of replacing pipes at about $20-30 a shot every few years.

Go to a Steel supplier near you and ask for structural steel, the dia. is the same as gas pipes and is very smooth and slightly harder than gas pipes. Remember i have used mine with the Galvanised Gas pipes for over a year now, the wear on the pipes is very min.

Also here is a example of what i was talking about earlier "Rick" (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23546)
did on his machine by adding a portion of an anti-backlash assemble to the Y-Axis and also on the X-Axis by adding it to the other side if the lower torsion box.

Joe

Also here is a example of what i was talking about earlier "Rick" (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23546)
did on his machine by adding a portion of an anti-backlash assemble to the Y-Axis and also on the X-Axis by adding it to the other side if the lower torsion box.

Joe

Yup, that will work too. JGRO did something like that on his machine, he called the second block and antiwhip block or something like that, I don't know if his plans ever got reloaded whtn we had the zone upgrade.

Hey Joe and All,
I just found this board a week or two ago, and every day since then I have been on here reading the old entries as a lurker, and I must say I am Very impressed with your design and with help that you, and others, have given everyone here. It has inspired me to attempt to build one from your design, which I hopefully will be starting soon. I do have a few questions (being I am not an engineer/designer) as to the purpose of a few of the components, like the threaded rod going thru the torsion boxes. Is the rod used to add strength and hold the box together or are they used to square/align the box? Does tightening opposite corners of the threaded rod cause the box to twist, for better alignment? Or am I over/under thinking this?

At one time in my life I use to be a Machinist, now (as the wife says) I sit in a small room typing into a computer, but I still have access to a Mill and Lathe. And one of my many hobbies is woodworking, so I feel fairly confident about being able to building the mechanical end of the router, but the Motors and electronic are another story.

I also would like to know what you have to sell as far as parts kits? And there cost? I will be sending my Email address along soon.

Once again, thanks for the inspiration to build something I have always wanted to try.
Jac

Jac, welcome!

Don't worry there are many who can help with the electronics and motors.

When I started I new very little about electronics, now I am just completing my 4th Controller box based on the HobbyCNC board and if I don't say so myself it looks pretty professional.

I would not have got to this level of confidence if it hadn't been for all the help from people on this forum.

David

anyone getting any wear in their pipe rails? I barely use mine and have pretty significant wear. I turned them today and they are already after just one program run on it worn in a little bit. I would assume that it is a bad thing and that there might be too much pressure on the rails but would be interested to hear about similar experiences with it? I have no damage to the bearings or wear on them, just the rails.

I guess you are bound to get some wear after all you basically have point loading on the pipes which must be pretty high.

I gave this a little thought and came up with a low cost solution that might work . See what you think ...

Glue up two pieces of 1/2" mdf and one 3/4" piece about 8" wide . rout with 45 degree bit or better still 45 the edges leaving a small flat in the center. Now attach angle iron on top and bottom [sheetrock screws through the apex
now use the existing slides only vertically as shown.

If this works then at least you would end up with line contact,adjustment would be as simple as the pipe design a the expense about the same .

That's a pretty interesting idea. I know I'm not getting full face contact with my bearings so I'm not getting a 100% potential of them, but then again I don't think I'm the only one getting nothing more than edge contact of the bearings on any axis. Could be wrong though.. I will see what joe things of what you drew up, I understand it, but he understands his machine more than most so he would know if it would be better or not.

Hi
How much is Joe's kit? and how much are your plans? I have not read all the post yet on joe's machine but what I have read I like. This is what I want to build. I am only up to page 25. But I can't wait to see how much the plans are and how much the kit is. Please let me know.
tim
tim@mychewybear.com

Hi
How much is Joe's kit? and how much are your plans? I have not read all the post yet on joe's machine but what I have read I like. This is what I want to build. I am only up to page 25. But I can't wait to see how much the plans are and how much the kit is. Please let me know.
tim
tim@mychewybear.com

Joe's plans are free... As for the price of a kit send Joe a PM

That's a pretty interesting idea. I know I'm not getting full face contact with my bearings so I'm not getting a 100% potential of them, but then again I don't think I'm the only one getting nothing more than edge contact of the bearings on any axis. Could be wrong though.. I will see what joe things of what you drew up, I understand it, but he understands his machine more than most so he would know if it would be better or not.

I came up with that idea last night. this morning I checked out the arrangement using an existing slide and a spare piece of angle . the bolt heads cause interference right now at the apex of the angle iron,they need to be recessed an additional 1/16" [at least on mine ] then the existing sldes can be used . the angle sitting on the glued up web could probably be attached with sheetrock screws or epoxied in ,once installed it is not going anywhere .

There is an advantage to the woodworker in this group [the great unwashed]in that you dont have to find a 1 %/16" forstener bit and fudge that a bit to seat the gas pipes.

Perhaps another is by increasing the height of the web between the angle irons and slightly reducing the X_Y bed depth the webs on either side can be used as the sides of the box beam, as shown in the crappy drawing . a minor detail but a small brush arrangement could be attached to the front and rear of the gantry to at least keep the upper rail clean

hi,

can you tell me please from where the z-axis is controlled ?

Hi, not sure what you are asking here. The z axis is controlled from the same place as the other axis (the controller). I suspect something has been lost in the translation here, so perhaps you could expand your question so that we can understand what you are really asking.

Thanks

but the z-axis is used to cut the depth of the wood, but it is controlled automatically by the software ?

but the z-axis is used to cut the depth of the wood, but it is controlled automatically by the software ?

Yes, the z-axis cuts the depth in wood and it is controlled by the software through the controller.

Yes it is controlled by the software (most use Mach 3 from www.artocnc.ca) the same way as the x and y axis.

but the z-axis is used to cut the depth of the wood, but it is controlled automatically by the software ?

Sì, l'z-asse taglia la profondità in legno ed è controllato dal software attraverso il regolatore. Pubblicare/messaggio di cancellazione

anyone forsee a problem swinging a 1/2" collet 1/2" diameter 1" 1/2 upspiral? I have to cut a 1" 1/2" slab for someone, and probably more in the future, they are on sale at woodcraft, whiteside ones. So far the bigger the tool on my cnc the more I can hog off. It sounds wrong but I guess it's true in terms of cnc routers since smaller bits are more brittle. I'm trying to avoid having to drill a hole in the tool path and use a flush trim bit flipping it over as I need to machine the other side exactly as the first face with somewhat precision, I don't want to remove any more material than the machine does until it machines both sides. Thanks!

anyone forsee a problem swinging a 1/2" collet 1/2" diameter 1" 1/2 upspiral? I have to cut a 1" 1/2" slab for someone, and probably more in the future, they are on sale at woodcraft, whiteside ones. So far the bigger the tool on my cnc the more I can hog off. It sounds wrong but I guess it's true in terms of cnc routers since smaller bits are more brittle. I'm trying to avoid having to drill a hole in the tool path and use a flush trim bit flipping it over as I need to machine the other side exactly as the first face with somewhat precision, I don't want to remove any more material than the machine does until it machines both sides. Thanks!

Brian should not be a problem, because the ATC is 1/2" collet, and the weight of that is more than a larger bit. yes is true the larger bit you can cut deeper.

Brian should not be a problem, because the ATC is 1/2" collet, and the weight of that is more than a larger bit. yes is true the larger bit you can cut deeper.


thank you joe, I purchased it regardless, they had a 2" for a tad more but the 1" 1/2 was on sale (whiteside, solid carbide) for about $50. A steal if you ask me! I've learned in the past that you shouldn't ever cheap out on router bits because if you buy good ones they will pay for themselves time after time. Woodcraft "carbide tipped" bits :confused:. I used their flush trim on maybe 50 linear feet of mdf and the thing was already worn out right in the center almost a 32nd". My whiteside bits are still sharp as can be.

So now, the tooling I've bought just for this machine a lone..

1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" (new large bit) upspirals all whiteside, one freud
1/8", 3/8" ball nose (whiteside and cmt)
90 degrees, 1/2" & 3/4" whitesides veebit
60 degrees whiteside veebit

and a box more with bearings for edge profiles, cove, camfer, ogee etc

Money well spent IMO. :) JLT must of spent some cheese as well, last time I saw his ATC had about a dozen or so collets in his holder. I guess you grow over time. Joe, hows the ATC working out? I'm really anxious to try it out but have to finally figure out the multifunction board so I can get the charge pump in and all that mumbo jumbo.

For the lead screws whipping and causing vibration. I know the skate bearings are not made for side loads. What about using tapered bearings and races. Like small car wheel bearings.

You could put one on each side and then use the nuts on either side to lock them. Then tighten the other end on the outside to take out the slack and pre load the lead screw, finally tighten another nut on the inside to lock it in place. Now it would be totally captured and have enough tension to keep it from whipping when turning fast.

I hope my explanation made sense.

Glenn

For the lead screws whipping and causing vibration. I know the skate bearings are not made for side loads. What about using tapered bearings and races. Like small car wheel bearings.


I bought thrust bearings for my machine but decided not to use them since they are not sealed and would need to be lubricated. I think this would be the same with tapered bearings. Unless you can find a method to keep the sawdust out and the grease in, I think you would eventually have problems with them gunking up. Somewhere I heard about a dry spray lube that is supposed to be good for leadscrews since it doesn't collect dust. Maybe it would work for open bearings too.

I think I got these from McMaster-Carr but it has been over a year ago. They weren't terribly expensive. They are .502 I.D, about .900 O.D, and .150 thick with the bearing and both races. I don't recall the load rating, but at the time it seemed like they would be heavy enough.

Mike those should work good for the load.

Here is a sign, i just cut for my daughter, I have promised her i would do it for a long time now so finally did, I made the DXF from tracing a photo in Acad.

1st) Painted a 8"x8" signfoam Yellow then clear coat it and let dry.
2nd) I cut it 0.20" depth.
3rd) sprayed the whole thing Green then wiped the Coated raised yellow section with WD40 which just wiped the green paint right off with a few passes.

I just need to clean up a few area's with a knife around the letters and some on the deer.

The paint was just the spray cans (John Deere industrical equipment colors) from Homedepot.

Joe

Its good when we can get in a freebie for family because their stuff always seems to get put on the backburner.
I promised my mother some curtain rod brackets a few months back (actually its almost a year) and she has not seen them yet.

Jason

2nd) I cut it 0.20" depth.

Joe

What bit did you use?

Joe, what software are you using to go from DFX to g-code?

Rich

What bit did you use?

Joe, what software are you using to go from DFX to g-code?

Rich

You can use V-Carve Pro, just highlight everything, then choose pocket, and it will genterate the Tool-Path automatically for you.

Joe

Its good when we can get in a freebie for family because their stuff always seems to get put on the backburner.
I promised my mother some curtain rod brackets a few months back (actually its almost a year) and she has not seen them yet.

Jason

Jason, you are so right. we should take a little more time and do things for the family, brings a smile to their face.

Joe

Here is a sign, i just cut for my daughter, I have promised her i would do it for a long time now so finally did, I made the DXF from tracing a photo in Acad


Joe,

As always, great job! Thanks for sharing! :)

Could you elaborate on how you trace a photo in ACad?

Thanks!

Bob

Joe,

As always, great job! Thanks for sharing! :)

Could you elaborate on how you trace a photo in ACad?

Thanks!

Bob

When i get home i will post a picture, but all i do is insert raster image, screen it back 40% then trace the outline with lines and 3-point curves.

then change all linework to poly lines and join.

Hey Joe,

Got my machine up and running this weekend. Cut my first part. I guess I'll have to start a thread now :)

Thanks for all the help and the design.

When i get home i will post a picture, but all i do is insert raster image, screen it back 40% then trace the outline with lines and 3-point curves.

then change all linework to poly lines and join.

Thanks!

Look forward to seeing the example! I think I have an idea of what you are doing, I'll give it a try.

Bob

Hey Joe,

Got my machine up and running this weekend. Cut my first part. I guess I'll have to start a thread now :)

Thanks for all the help and the design.

Congratulations! Let's see the pictures, everyone likes pictures! :)

Thanks!

Look forward to seeing the example! I think I have an idea of what you are doing, I'll give it a try.

Bob

here is a sample of the trace, then just resized the text.

here is a sample of the trace, then just resized the text.

Pretty clever! I can see where this is going to be very useful. Thanks!

Doesn't MDF do a good job of absorbing vibration and noise. I seems lots of MDF would be good, assuming the steppers can still move the moving parts.

You'de be suprised how much little steppers can move, they have a ton of force in them. I'de say it does an OK job at absorbing vibration, it's nothing like cast iron but it does a decent job.

Hey Joe, remember me? It's been a long time..
I just gota thing in email and your topic was in the top(most viewed) - so I thought I'd pop in.. Haven't been even looking at the Zone lately, so I don't know - But Gotta say: How is VCarve Pro working for ya? I thought about buying it briefly, but backed out at the last second - just cause of timing, building other stuff, etc. (Interest was waning)

Is the pic of the final JD plaque done on what the sign business calls "Butterboard"?

a final thing: My cnc interest waned primarily due to the fact that I found out I could do this:
(The picture explains it...) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/thorsgaardfoundry/sandblastedcastings.jpg

[QUOTE=thorsgaard;276341]Hey Joe, remember me? It's been a long time..
I just gota thing in email and your topic was in the top(most viewed) - so I thought I'd pop in.. Haven't been even looking at the Zone lately, so I don't know - But Gotta say: How is VCarve Pro working for ya? I thought about buying it briefly, but backed out at the last second - just cause of timing, building other stuff, etc. (Interest was waning)

Is the pic of the final JD plaque done on what the sign business calls "Butterboard"?

QUOTE]


The John Deere was made out of signfoam, and was done in a few hours including design in cad and everything.

Joe

Hi All, OK the first Joe machine is finished and cuts well. Still having an issue with a little backlash. But working on it.

I have been thinking of switching to 2 start screws and will have to get antibacklash nuts either from dumpsters or make them myself (no one makes or sells standard steel hex nuts for the 2 start screws). Typically, right after the lovejoys most people use a couple of nuts jambed together snugged up against the bearing. It there any reason anyone can think on for why I wouldn't ge able to replace these nuts with a locking shaft collar (mcmaster-carr page 1103)?

Or possible even replacing the whole bearing mount with a standard flange bearing mcmaster-carr page 1095)?

I believe joe and david tried the locking shaft collar to replace the two nuts. They would be able to comment on their results. Problems with backlash, is it vibration you are receiving? Could you explain it more in detail?

I am currently using the leadscrew clamps from Dumpster and they seem to work fine.

David

the only problem i had with them was not being able to preload the leadscrew like i wanted to, however, with a nut or a DIY nut you can add some preload and then use the dumpster clamp to the outside to lock it into place.

Joe

The only pre-load I have is the small amount using just the dumpster clamp.

Joe,
Where did you get your signfoam? A local supplier or internet source?
Dave

Here is a sign, i just cut for my daughter, ...

1st) Painted a 8"x8" signfoam Yellow then clear coat it and let dry.
....

Joe

Hi Joe,

I cut a aquare today, actually it is supposed to be a square. I find that I am a little out. Attached is a diagram and was wondering which threaded rods you would suggest tightening and which you would suggest slakening.

I the square I cut distance ad is greater than bc. It seems logical to me that if I tighten up the front rods of the gantry that may pull things a little more into square. I've been trying to think whether pulling any of the table tortion box rods tighter would do anything and I can't see it in my mind. Of course, if I had thought to put in 2 running diagonally from corner to corner those would probably help a lot. That's for the next build I guess.

I might also just take one of the motorcycle tiedowns and run it corner to corner in the ad direction around the legs and pull on that.

Thanks
Steven

My nacklash problem.

I think my preload is just wat to tight. I totally removed the spring from the x axis and part of it cleared up. I'll try the y also next.

Thanks

Joe,
Where did you get your signfoam? A local supplier or internet source?
Dave


they were samples from signfoam.

My nacklash problem.

I think my preload is just wat to tight. I totally removed the spring from the x axis and part of it cleared up. I'll try the y also next.

Thanks


I would not think that preload would do much to backlash, the anti-backlash nut needs to be just barely tightened enough as to not allow the slight movement between threads.

As far as being square, the x-axis torsion box can be out of square and not affect the function of the machine, because its the rails that the gantry ride on, and they just need to be parrallel, and i'm sure they are.

take a large carpenters square and place it on the x-axis and draw a line on the main table, perpendicular to the rails, then jog the machine to one side and place inline with the mark, (I used a v-bit) then jog the machine to the other end of the table. and check for square, if it is out, then adjust the bolts on the side of the gantry in and out in pairs, the front two together and the rear two together, this will slightly move that side of the gantry forward or backwards, you can see it with the bit and the mark you have made, then adjust it acordingly, and repeap until you are satified, this isd also how to adjust the height from one side to the other, by adjusting the top two together and the bottom two. (you can start to get a feel of how it starts to fine tune the machine). same principle aplies to the Z-axis to make it plumb.

Joe

Thanks Joe, I'll give that a try.

I didn't mean to say that the excessive preload was causing backlash. Poor choice of words on my part. I think the excessive preload is causing the skate bearings to stick (I used regilar 1/2ID 1-18OD skate bearings on the lead screws rather than the more expensive angular contact. Under light axial loads the skates are fine. I just think Ioaded mine a little to heavy and they may be binding a bit.

yea if you have to much of a load on the skate bearings, they will bind, lockup from lateral force, but they do work good if you snug everything up to them.

Joe

Question Joe!

I have been looking at your EDrawings of your machine and see that in the X Torsion Box you have the long braces split into 2 parts. Is there a reason for this? Is it due to the size of sheet stock you are able to buy or is this meant to be this way in the design?

I look forward to building this machine soon and will be posting pictures as soon as I start. But in the mean time I am redrawing the parts into Autocad 14.

Andrew


Edit: Right after typing this I ran across a DWG to DXF converter that can convert your DWG files to DXF or back to DWG for Autocad 14. So if you see my other post in these forums asking for the DXF files please pay it no mind as I can take care of it now. But my question above still stands. Thanks

Joe designed those parts to be cut in and then assembled because they are long for the machine to cut. They are easy to assemble, glue and clamp and they become very strong, especially after the torsion box is assembled. If you're cutting the parts, and can make them as one, do it. If you can't, then split stuff up like he designed. But that's why he designed those parts that way.

When I made mine I only had a manual router table and a table saw (don't get me wrong, actually I have a fully equipt violin making shop, but a 1/4 inch curved sole hand plane isn't really going to help make the router), so I made my X Torsion Box you have the long braces all 1 piece. It's a bit diffacult to hold while you cut the insets for the crosswise pipeholders, but it can be done. I suggest 2 people for this operation for safety.

Joe. I adjusted the sides and everything seens to be tracking square now. Will try a test cut sometime this week. Thanks for the suggestions. It also seems to be running smoother, but this could be my imagination.

Thanks guys, I run a cnc router at work that can make them 1 piece so I think I'll go with that. This would be more fun if I had the machinery at home to do this, but but next time it will all be done at home. Look forward to it.

Thanks again!

Hi Guys , my shop is about to get bigger so almost ready for the build, for now i have a JGRO , any of you have a way to cut it with the JGRO ??? any body has done the drawings of long parts in 2 ???

Thanks

My JGRO has a cutting area of 29" X 15", not large enough for some of Joe's parts. I am considering some options on how to cut these larger parts, either resizing Joe's design or maybe even splicing cut parts into two parts with metal dowels to produce the required lengths. I have done a test of one of the uprights and it may work as it seems to be fairly firm. That would require some design changes to the existing drawings. Another option is to have them cut by someone who has a larger machine or purchase from Joe directly.

Thunterman

You can do what buzz has done on his machine, the just cut the piece in two parts then used another to connect them together. see starting at post #113.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32915&page=10

also if you make one and use it as a templete, then you can rough cut the width and length on a table saw, then use a trim flush router bit and make one solid piece 4 of them then discard the templete.

hope this helps.

Joe

Heres a quick test to see if the Z-Axis is perfectly vertical on the machine, turn the cut piece on side and test with a square. Red line should 90 deg.

went and recruited some more popcorn ninja's today, And ready to release them on the world.

Also this is what the box looks like ready to ship before leaving my house, in good shape until delivery people get ahold of it.... lol

Hi Thunterman,
What is longest/largest item of Joe's design? Which pieces of the torque box are the most important? I'm guessing the most important pieces are the width of the base. The parts that spans from pipe to pipe. Are those parts to long for the JGRO?
Dave

My JGRO has a cutting area of 29" X 15", not large enough for some of Joe's parts. I am considering some options on how to cut these larger parts, either resizing Joe's design or maybe even splicing cut parts into two parts with metal dowels to produce the required lengths. I have done a test of one of the uprights and it may work as it seems to be fairly firm. That would require some design changes to the existing drawings. Another option is to have them cut by someone who has a larger machine or purchase from Joe directly.

Thunterman

Hi Thunterman,
What is longest/largest item of Joe's design? Which pieces of the torque box are the most important? I'm guessing the most important pieces are the width of the base. The parts that spans from pipe to pipe. Are those parts to long for the JGRO?
Dave

Dave,

I don't have the exact measurements in front of me but the longest pieces are the X-Axis torsion box long brace, it comes in at about 42". The pipe support braces for the same are around 30". I believe the next longest piece is the Y axis gantry supports at about 34.5" Their are a few other pieces that are over 30" long as well.

Bob

went and recruited some more popcorn ninja's today, And ready to release them on the world.

Also this is what the box looks like ready to ship before leaving my house, in good shape until delivery people get ahold of it.... lol

Upon looking closer at your bag of ninjas it appears a couple have suited up for action and they haven't even left the bag yet :)
Ya, I know it's early morning and I must not have enough to do... yet!

34841

I am going to order 3 Gecko G203V drives, and a multifunction board from CNC4PC, probably the C11G. I am also thinking about ordering 3 of the 500 oz/in Model # RS23-500 stepper motors from HomeShopCNC. They are 500oz Nema 23's. I've got my power supply / control cabinet back board loaded up with a 60v 16a toroidal transformer, capacitor and rectifier and decided after much reading to go with the above mentioned parts to finish this part of the project.

I'll try and place the orders tonight or tomorrow, what do you think? Would anyone suggest going with the NEMA 34's?

Thanks,

Bob

I think that would be a great upgrade, the Basic machine was designed to get people into diy cnc try work and be able to have people see exactly how the machine goes together and make their own tweeks as they see fit for wehat they want to do. Would be very interesting in seeing the upgrades and how it performs, still waiting for Jay's new videos.. lol

Joe

I think that would be a great upgrade, the Basic machine was designed to get people into diy cnc try work and be able to have people see exactly how the machine goes together and make their own tweeks as they see fit for wehat they want to do. Would be very interesting in seeing the upgrades and how it performs, still waiting for Jay's new videos.. lol

Joe

I'll post videos and pics as I go.
I'm waiting as well for the further adventures of Jay. His new upgrades look good so far! I really wish I could have gone to the Vectric conference, I'll bet that's going to be fun, hopefully Jay will take some videos, hint, hint!
Haven't ordered the 1/2-8 2 start acme yet, but that's on the list of things to do. As soon as I get it in, the first thing to do is make a tap. I can't find one anywhere. If that doesn't work out will go with hardware from the DumpsterCNC site.

Your machine is great and so are the mods I keep seeing. It's a lot of fun seeing what everyone comes up with, and trying new things!
It is a very addictive hobby!!! :)
I'm thinking everyone should have two machines, one to cut with and the other for the endless fun of modifing!

As always, many thanks!

LOL...good one ccsparky!!! I unpacked the kit days ago and I believe the little buggers are starting to multiply. There are still Ninja's appearing in very strange places.

On another note....Jay convinced me that 1/2-8 2 start is definitely the way to go. Since I haven't started the "real" building yet, the timing was great. I purchased the acme rod and picked up the appropriate AB nuts from DumpsterCNC. I got a few things to finish up before I can start the "Joe 2006" build, but really looking forward to making this thing dance.

Most of you have already seen this, but those who haven't here is a pic of the kit parts unpacked. About 100 lbs and nearly 100 parts. A real quality package, Joe!

The wife loves looking at it in the living room.

The "other" Joe

wow, those parts look great. Outstanding. Your wife is a lucky person! :)

A good well built Joe machine, with a good coat of paint or stain, is actually a work or art and could easily be mistaken for a decorative piece of furniture. The living room is the best place for it. Your wife will appreciate it more as she sees it go together.

Lol while I agree with you I don't think my wife would. I have taken over the games room in the basement assembling and painting. You can tell by the look each time she comes down that it is not an "I am impressed with your work or art look" :)

Hi Thunterman,
What is longest/largest item of Joe's design? Which pieces of the torque box are the most important? I'm guessing the most important pieces are the width of the base. The parts that spans from pipe to pipe. Are those parts to long for the JGRO?
Dave

Hi Dave

Some of Joe's part measurements that are longer than the JRGO can cut:
Router end supports 33.95"~
Torsion box bottom 34.5"~
Gantry sides 30"~
Torsion box long braces 41.36"~

Thunterman

Hi, my name is patrick, I'm french and interessed by your realisation.
My problem is to convert in cemtimeter...I have to contact degeugene and no answer.I think that you can to give it ?
This is my adress patrickmode(*)free.fr if it's possible!
Thank's for all abd beautiful work.Sorry to for my approximativ english :°)

Another question for Joe or who ever might know. The Gantry sides pieces are 2 pieces of 1/2" MDF glued together ? Can it be done as a 1 piece of 1" ?

Andrew

Another question for Joe or who ever might know. The Gantry sides pieces are 2 pieces of 1/2" MDF glued together ? Can it be done as a 1 piece of 1" ?

Andrew

I made my gantry sides out of 2 0.75 inch pieces glued up and I still have to reinforce then with steel angle like Jay did.

2 - 0.5 pieces will be stronger than 1 - 1" piece. 4 - 0.25 pieces will be even stronger still.

In any case I would recommend reinforcing them.

read through Jay's upgrades and go from there.

Hi, my name is patrick, I'm french and interessed by your realisation.
My problem is to convert in cemtimeter...I have to contact degeugene and no answer.I think that you can to give it ?
This is my adress patrickmode(*)free.fr if it's possible!
Thank's for all abd beautiful work.Sorry to for my approximativ english :°)


Hello Patrick welcome to the forum.

1 inch = 2.54 cm

You will have to convert each measurement. If you import the parts into a CAD program then simply scale the drawings 2.54 times in order to get the correct sizes.

JAson

I am interseted in this upgrade you talk about stiffening the sides and why. While I notice one guy put rebar in it I have not noticed anyone else complaining about needing to reinforce the sides. I looked around trying to find Jay's thread, must be blind. Can you point me to the upgrades Jay did. Thanks much.

Check out his site www.cncjay.com

Jason

Thanks Jason. Lots of good information there.

Hello Patrick welcome to the forum.

1 inch = 2.54 cm

You will have to convert each measurement. If you import the parts into a CAD program then simply scale the drawings 2.54 times in order to get the correct sizes.

JAson

Hello Jason and thank you for the answer.I was no sure of the simplicity of this and cause I a real novice I prefer to be ( just a little bit.....) stupid and not to start on a wrong way.My problems are, I'm on Apple and I have not a real CAD soft!

I made my gantry sides out of 2 0.75 inch pieces glued up and I still have to reinforce then with steel angle like Jay did.

2 - 0.5 pieces will be stronger than 1 - 1" piece. 4 - 0.25 pieces will be even stronger still.

In any case I would recommend reinforcing them.

read through Jay's upgrades and go from there.


4 x 1/4" pieces would not be a problem if you guys think it would be stronger. But should I machine each piece apart from each other or would it be better to machine them after I have glued them up as a 1" piece?

I have read Jay's log and I plan on installing something like he has just to be on the safe side.

Edit: 1 more question. What about laminated MDF? Would this be even better than raw painted MDF?

4 x 1/4" pieces would not be a problem if you guys think it would be stronger. But should I machine each piece apart from each other or would it be better to machine them after I have glued them up as a 1" piece?

I have read Jay's log and I plan on installing something like he has just to be on the safe side.

Edit: 1 more question. What about laminated MDF? Would this be even better than raw painted MDF?

Be liberal witht he glue. Taking a cue from the world of real wood. Most people are amazed to learn that a properly made glue joint is stronger than the wood around it. This is because wood has pores. The glue squeezes into the pores and expands into the tiny crevices. Thus it acts like hooks into the wood. MDF is also porous. The major difference with MDF is that it is already a laminate and I have seen the stuff tend to peal (one of it's great drawbacks.

You want to make it really strong. 2 - 0.25 pieces of a good grade plywood as your center plys (something like baltic birch) with 2 outer skins of MDF. The MDF has almost no dimensional changes with changes in humidity, plywood has some, but much less than real wood. The outer skins on MDF will completely seal the inner ply core so it will see virtually no humidity changes. And yes, paint it too.

My paint regiem is a base coat of antifouling kills with a finish coat of any good enamel.

Thanks for your help.

Although I could do the ply in between the MDF, I think that it may be more then I need on my first build. I will stick to the 4 pieces of 0.25 mdf and see how that goes. If that doesn't work for me then I will layup some new sides with the birch ply in the middle. I work in a Wood Fab. company and have just about everything I could possibly need to do the build, but it really takes away from the fun of cutting everything at home. ( sure wish I had a wood shop at home :( ) But for my first build I guess it will do.

So should I machine the gantry sides and base pieces before or after I glue them together or could I machine them after?

We use thin (0,5mm) aluminium sheets in between. It becomes very stiff if you glue 2 or more alu sheets together with the MDF.

Edit: Spelling

Andrew,

I would glue up 2 sheets first. Some of your cuts, like those holding in the 5/16-18 nuts will go clean through the first 1/4 sheet and into the second.

The Aluminum idea will also add quite a lot of stiffness too. If you do this you will have to bolt it. Epoxy, for example, has excellent "slip" strength when holding metal-to-wood or metal-to-metal, but has virtually no "peel" strength. So it will delaminate at the slightest provocation.

2 changes I'm making in my Joe mk II is long tee-nuts instead of the the 5/16 nuts, and I'm extending the gantry down about 0.5 inches and making the bottom torsion box a little thicker. This way I can run 2 1/4-20 rods from side to side (under the lead screw just like the 4 tensioning rods in the upper torsion box. They will help a lot.

Humm if you are using 1/4 sheets... would you not glue three together and cut everything through the cut the last one through as well and glue the two together. Just a thought.

The MDF has almost no dimensional changes with changes in humidity, plywood has some, but much less than real wood. The outer skins on MDF will completely seal the inner ply core so it will see virtually no humidity changes. And yes, paint it too.


I used a strip of MDF as the runner for my table saw cutoff sled, thinking it would be stable. Since the slot is 3/4", I just cut off a 3/8" strip from some 3/4" MDF. I can tel you that "almost no dimensional changes in humidity" is not quite true. In the summer, my 3/8" x 3/4" strip swells up enough the the sled will barely slide. And in the winter, it has at least 1/32 of side to side play, if not more. MDF may move very little in width and length, but the thickness can vary quite a bit with humidity changes, although you'll see it more at the edges then throughout the whole sheet, because moisture can enter the edges easier.

And MDF will not compleely seal the inner core. Even a good quality finish will completely seal any wood product from moisture. A good finish will slow the migration of moisture, but unless you encapsulate it in an epoxy skin, moisture will get in there. But if slowed enough, you realy shouldn't notice much seasonal movement.

If you have problem with MDF, why not use HDF?

Here is a sample of instead of using a nut in the bearing slide area, i use a Tee Nut, place it on a 1/4" bolt, then hammer it down into the 5/15" hole to make the spikes on the nut grip into the MDF, then place the bolt throught the proper side, and cap it off with the Cap nuts, for a wide footing to press against the Bearing slides.

Hope the pictures explain the exaple i am doing on my next project.

Joe

Andrew,

...
The Aluminum idea will also add quite a lot of stiffness too. If you do this you will have to bolt it. Epoxy, for example, has excellent "slip" strength when holding metal-to-wood or metal-to-metal, but has virtually no "peel" strength. So it will delaminate at the slightest provocation.
...
We have no problem with delaminating. If it delaminates, it's the MDF itself, not separate from the aluminium. We use a two-component karbamidglue. The same we use when making doors for outdoor use, together with HDF.

Here you can see it when I use it. One sheet inside, and two outside.
On the other picture, you can see the two layer inside the hole.

Joe,
I'm not really sure what I'm looking at in your second pic of the t-nuts. Is that the Z axis top plate where you have the hex nut routed out? I assume you'll do the gantry right inside as well. Looks like a nice improvement. Can you confirm for me what I think the pic is? Or maybe a wider shot.

As you may know, I haven't started the build yet, so any improvements like this before would be greatly appreciated.

The "other" Joe

Hello,

Not Joe, but yes, it looks like the top adjustment for the across-the-gantry axis. (Which I call the Y axis.) Gantry along table is X, and Z is toolup/down.)

Two points are being addressed by this mod, IMO. One is that the tee-nut provides a more secure means of dealing wirth the thrust loads put upon the bearing adjustment block.And its wider area resists the forces more than an embedded nut by itself. The large capnuts on th eends of the adjustment screws increase the area that the adjustment screw(s) are in contact with the adjusting block.

These two items will make the adjustable bearings side of each axis more robust, as each will better resist the forces acting against it.

Hope this helps,

Ballendo




Joe,
I'm not really sure what I'm looking at in your second pic of the t-nuts. Is that the Z axis top plate where you have the hex nut routed out? I assume you'll do the gantry right inside as well. Looks like a nice improvement. Can you confirm for me what I think the pic is? Or maybe a wider shot.

As you may know, I haven't started the build yet, so any improvements like this before would be greatly appreciated.

The "other" Joe

Ballendo,
Thanks much for the clarification. It's what I thought, but it just wasn't clear to me from the photo. Nice and easy mod that seems to make a lot of sense.

Thanks again,
Joe

went and recruited some more popcorn ninja's today, And ready to release them on the world.

Also this is what the box looks like ready to ship before leaving my house, in good shape until delivery people get ahold of it.... lol

Hello to all.
I would like to ask Joe if his Cnc Router can be work well using Step motors

Rating
Step Angle 1.8 full step
Number of Phases 4
Rated Voltage 5V dc
Rated Current 1A/phase
Insulation Class B
Ambient Temperature -10C to 50C
Ambient Humidity 10% to 90% (no condensation)
Electrical Characteristics
Winding Resistance 5/phase ± 10%
Winding Inductance 9.3mH/phase ± 20%
Insulation Resistance > 100M (at 500V dc between motor frame & lead wires)
Dielectric Strength  500V ac for 1 minute
Temperature Rise Max 80C (when two windings excited by 5V dc)
Holding Torque 5 Kg-cm, with two phases excited at 1A/phase
Detent Torque Nominal 220g-cm

If Yes please tell me the cost of the kit, any taxes and the postage fees to Greece.

Thanks in advance, :)
Panayotis

if those are 80ozin, no they will not work, you need min. of 200ozin, and 36v 10, if 200oz-in are used.

Joe

The motors are displaying 5V 1A/Phase and holding torque 5Kg-Cm.
Is it enough?
I am attatching the pdf file with the characteristics.

Please see it and tell me if they are ok for use with your Router.
Sorry i can't change Kg-cm torque to Oz-in.

Thanks in advance

maybe my math is off but I get:

5kg/cm x 2.54Cm/in x 2.2lb/kg x 16oz/lb = 447oz/in



Erebus

maybe my math is off but I get:

5kg/cm x 2.54Cm/in x 2.2lb/kg x 16oz/lb = 447oz/in



Erebus

From onlineconversion.com

Link to torque conversion (http://www.onlineconversion.com/torque.htm)

5 kilogram/centimeter = 69.436932784 ounce/inch

one kg = 176.73oz
one cm = 0.3937"

so

5kg-cm = 176.73 x 0.3937 = 69.5786 oz-in

fade2black is correct.


joe

You wrote 5kg/cm * 2.54 cm/in

It should read 5kg*cm / (2.54 cm/in) .

Complete your math and it works out to 69 oz-in.

Both inches and ounces are in the numerator.


maybe my math is off but I get:

5kg/cm x 2.54Cm/in x 2.2lb/kg x 16oz/lb = 447oz/in



Erebus

Oops, for some reason I keep thinking oz per in not oz over in applied torque :(

Sorry for that

Erebus

one kg = 176.73oz
one cm = 0.3937"

so

5kg-cm = 176.73 x 0.3937 = 69.5786 oz-in

fade2black is correct.


joe

So as i can understand the motors i have are not too good for the Joe's router. Is that right ?

I have to buy new set of motors for that...

Can i build any router using these motors?

Any suggestions will help. I am a new to cnc and i don't know much.

Thanks...

Hello,

You should have a look at: http://www.kleinbauer.com

and also: http://www.rockcliffmachine.com

and then: http://www.bigbearcnc.com

and: http://www.solsylva.com

All offer smaller machines; some are suitable to the motors you have...

Hope this helps,

Ballendo


So as i can understand the motors i have are not too good for the Joe's router. Is that right ?

I have to buy new set of motors for that...

Can i build any router using these motors?

Any suggestions will help. I am a new to cnc and i don't know much.

Thanks...

Hello,

You should have a look at: http://www.kleinbauer.com

and also: http://www.rockcliffmachine.com

and then: http://www.bigbearcnc.com

and: http://www.solsylva.com

All offer smaller machines; some are suitable to the motors you have...

Hope this helps,

Ballendo

Dissapointed.... :confused: I thought if i could not build Joe's i could build Jgro's, but as i can see the motors i purchased are not strong enough.

Anyway thanks for your suggestions...

you can always put the motors on ebay.

has anyone used thier 2006 to etch a circuit board? does anyone have any pictures of fine/detailed work created with one of these machines? im very interested in getting a kit.

thanks!

Joe,

I am redoing my Y-axis (different design) and considering using torsion boxes (top and bottom) similar to your design. My question is, if I design a carriage similar to your to carry the z-axis, do you see any problems with leaving enough room at the back of the carriage for a cable carrier to fasten to the back of the torsion box (between the carrier and the torsion box)? This would require a slightly larger opening in the z-axis carrier plate.

Thanks,
Alan

Not Joe, but 2 cents to think about.

If I understand you right you want to run the cable carrier under the Z axis chasey and on top of the y axis gantry (neatly in side).

If this is correct you are going to want to consider the amount of room including the radiuses of the cable carrier. Each carrire will take up a different amount of room. Might want to allow it to flow through the end so that it does not consume any room on your Y axis.

Sorry I have no comment on the structural effects of doing this.

Not Joe, but 2 cents to think about.

If I understand you right you want to run the cable carrier under the Z axis chasey and on top of the y axis gantry (neatly in side).

If this is correct you are going to want to consider the amount of room including the radiuses of the cable carrier. Each carrire will take up a different amount of room. Might want to allow it to flow through the end so that it does not consume any room on your Y axis.

Buzz,

I want to mount the cable carrier on the backside of the Y-axis torsion box (parallel to the Y-axis lead screw). Yes, I know that I will have to use a longer chain to move the radius so that the z-axis carrier plate will clear it at the end of its travel. Luckily, I have an extra length of the size I am currently using on my y-axis. It is a relatively small cable chain (1.5" wide x 1" thick). It carries only the wires for the z-axis limits, z-axis stepper and the router power cable.

Alan

Ok, I know many people have been working on a Dust skirt, here is what i came up with as a quick fix and used with the ATC it redirects the collection to an area about 3" dia. or so just around the tool area, and still allows you to chance the tool.

let me know what you think, have not tested it fully, the bottom plate is the same size as the existing top plate. and i used plastic carpet runner from lowes.

Sorry for picture quality all i had was my cell.

Joe

Edit: Revised V-Carve file..... 4-18-07

Cool design Joe! If that is enclosed tight enough I'm assuming that the router might do some good in helping to drive those chips and dust into the vac.

Ok, I know many people have been working on a Dust skirt, here is what i came up with as a quick fix and used with the ATC it redirects the collection to an area about 3" dia. or so just around the tool area, and still allows you to chance the tool.

let me know what you think, have not tested it fully, the bottom plate is the same size as the existing top plate. and i used plastic carpet runner from lowes.

Sorry for picture quality all i had was my cell.

Joe

That looks like it'll do the trick! Thanks Joe, will have to give that a try!

Bob

I was asked if I could upload a drawing file, so here is a dxf file for those who do not have or use V-Carve Pro.

I was using this last night and was very pleased with how well it worked.

Joe

Sounds good joe. Will cut it this weekend, thank you for the acad file! I think that it doesnt even have to suck the dust up very well but rather just contain it. For me I can suck it up later or it will as it makes multiple passes but the hardest thing for me sometimes when cutting solids or plywood with up spiral bits is that it rapidly shoots the chips in which ever cutting direction and makes a mess on the rails. Whether this affects the cut or not I'm not certain but it can't be helping it by any means. How flexible is the material you used? Does it provide enough give? I'm totally ready to drop my current one in the trash!

It works well in picking up the dust and scaps, the carpet runner if flexable enough yet stiff enough to keek its shape so far.

Joe

Ok, I know many people have been working on a Dust skirt, here is what i came up with as a quick fix and used with the ATC it redirects the collection to an area about 3" dia. or so just around the tool area, and still allows you to chance the tool.

let me know what you think, have not tested it fully, the bottom plate is the same size as the existing top plate. and i used plastic carpet runner from lowes.

Sorry for picture quality all i had was my cell.

Joe

Edit: Revised V-Carve file..... 4-18-07

I have not followed this thread that closely of late but I thought you designed a dust collection system with a brush perifery .Did that design not perform to expectations which lead to this new design ?

the existing collector when moved to the end of the table will loose effectiveness, and also with the extention of the ATC, it needed to be extended lower.

Joe

the existing collector when moved to the end of the table will loose efectiveness, and also with the extention of the ATC, it needed to be extended lower.


Joe

I am about to finish my XY bed and although the working length is somewhat less than 6 feet [length of acme threaded rod]I have made the bed flat out to 7 feet for two purposes .

To eliminate the problem you just mentioned and secondly I resetting the work so that the machine can produce items longer than it's normal working length....regards mjh

I thought i would do a quick video of the dust collector so you can see how much MDF it leaves behind, with 2.5" Hose.

Cutting some pockets, 80ipm, with ATC and Hitachi set on 3, cutting depth 0.15"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7781837567719886065

Joe

thats awesome joe, thanks for the video, your machine is running really slick at 80 ipm, wish I could get there, just to see it in the air.. as many did I question the xylotex kit as a good package for this router and of this size.. beyond my mechanical problems I know my machine stalls at anything around 80-90 ipm, I guess later on I will go the hobby cnc route and sell some of my components, maybe upgrade the motors as well

Nice job!!!! I have modified mine temporarily similiarly to machine the surface of the table then the sacrificial plate will be big enough that the dust collector will not go off the edge.

Lookin good Joe. I gotta build me one of those. Looks like it is much easier than standing there chasing the bit around with a shop vac hose.

Joe,

Thanks for taking a look at my router with the dust collector. I used your design for inspiration.

Now I am about to use some more of your design ideas to strengthen my router. I am redesigning my Y-axis to use torsion boxes like your design.

Thanks,
Alan

Joe,

Thanks for taking a look at my router with the dust collector. I used your design for inspiration.

Now I am about to use some more of your design ideas to strengthen my router. I am redesigning my Y-axis to use torsion boxes like your design.

Thanks,
Alan


You can always cut your own CNC Model 2006.

Joe,

I was looking at the old dust collector from way back when the post page numbers were in double digits. It looks like it is all 1/2 inch stock. (acutally I should have asked that as a question, is it all 1/2 in stock sounds better)?

Is the bottom undercut to receive the brush? I was thinking I may just wrap rug runner vinyl around the whole circumfrence instead of trying to find felxible brush stock.

Joe,

I was looking at the old dust collector from way back when the post page numbers were in double digits. It looks like it is all 1/2 inch stock. (acutally I should have asked that as a question, is it all 1/2 in stock sounds better)?

Is the bottom undercut to receive the brush? I was thinking I may just wrap rug runner vinyl around the whole circumfrence instead of trying to find felxible brush stock.

Yes original is 1/2" HDPE, and used a 1/8" grove to reccess the skirt in no reason you can not just use outer edge. for use with top plate only.

Joe

Here is the file david provided, i just slightly modified it to fit my needs, not the sizes, but just the cutting on my machine (the tool paths) It worked real well, i had something along these lines to do for the new machine but david beat me to it. so here are my 1/2-8 2 start from Dumpster (for new machine), He has VERY good quality. I would highly recommend them.

Joe

I got the same parts from them. I had to send them back because I forgot to get the flanges, but they looked top quality and Tim is a great guy to work with.

I been reading some of your posted messages very carefully, learning and observing how some of of you guys are coping with development, and manufacturing and learning from you all.If in the near future some question arise be sure I will became a part of this active forum.
Thanks
oscar

Joe,
I know this question has been asked many times. Where can I find 1/2-8 2 start acme rod? I did some searching last night and didn't find many hits. Cheapest cost for 6 feet was $90. It was 1/2-10 2 start.
Dave

Here is the file david provided, i just slightly modified it to fit my needs, not the sizes, but just the cutting on my machine (the tool paths) It worked real well, i had something along these lines to do for the new machine but david beat me to it. so here are my 1/2-8 2 start from Dumpster (for new machine), He has VERY good quality. I would highly recommend them.

Joe

edit: I just found a separate thread from you about this very question. You recommended the MSC.

I actually called fastenal, have three local here, they sell it for 5.60 a foot, very good price, they charged shipping but for three 6' pieces it was 100.80, Which makes it 33.60 each, can't beat that, plus local pickup, within 3 days.

Joe

Caution with Fastenal (locally here anyway) both me and my buddy have had the oppertunity to buy them there and well they are not the straightest. Check them out before you taken them home.

Joe,
I know this question has been asked many times. Where can I find 1/2-8 2 start acme rod? I did some searching last night and didn't find many hits. Cheapest cost for 6 feet was $90. It was 1/2-10 2 start.
Dave



edit: I just found a separate thread from you about this very question. You recommended the MSC.

Mcmaster-Carr has it for $53 per 6ft piece. 1018 Carbon Steel— Lead accuracy is 0.009" or better per foot. Minimum tensile strength is 64,000 psi, unless noted. Hardness is 126 Brinell, unless noted. If you want the heat treated stainless it's a bit more (about $20 more). I have ordered from them in the past and fond them to be quite good. In another thread here someone mentioned that they were trying out another company who was a distributor for Nook. They had it even cheeper and possibly better quality, but I can't find the thread or the distributor any more.

I checked out Nook Industries but did not see 1/2-8, here's the link
http://www.nookindustries.com/
If someone finds it please post the link.

Also here's another place that was mentioned on David's site by Joe I believe

MSC Industrial Supply
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=4454587&PMT4NO=20332310

They have 1/2-8 two start for $42.49, they also have a couple different nuts for them but they are in the mid to upper $20 range.

Bob

Interesting that MSC has the 1/2-8 2 start at a considerable lower price than the 1/2-10 2 start. I would have thought the 1/2-10 would be the more popular thread (at least I see more people out here using it than the 8).

I bought mine from MSC and they were pretty dead on straight (from what I can tell so far). They ship fast too.

I purchased the 1/2-8 2 start from MSC. I checked for straightness when they arrived and they were suprisingly good.

How about the nuts, did you use the round nuts from MSC. I plan to buy the dumpster nuts for the anti backlash, however each end of the rod needs restraint. Where did you guys buy 1/2-8 2start nuts?

How about the nuts, did you use the round nuts from MSC. I plan to buy the dumpster nuts for the anti backlash, however each end of the rod needs restraint. Where did you guys buy 1/2-8 2start nuts?


I will be using 1/2" metal slotted clamps I got from Fastenal 1.50 each, on one side against the bearing, then on the other side there will be a spring placed between the bearing and 1/2" clamp (all using washers of course), the clamp will be pressed inward to add slight presure, not much is needed. It will be shown in pictures later on with new machine.

Joe

Hi Joe.

Just started reading about this machine. ( last few posts)

I have a wooden glider that I would like to build and it has hundreds of small accurate plywood parts.

I would like to consider making a machine like yours to do this project on. Do you have plans that I can buy and do you sell a kit of the components that are required to build it?

I don't meant to be cutting corners but I am not very computer literate and to read the total number of posts that have been written since you started this machine are overwelming.

Thanks for you consideration.

Wally

I got mine from McMaster.


David

Joe,
I know this question has been asked many times. Where can I find 1/2-8 2 start acme rod? I did some searching last night and didn't find many hits. Cheapest cost for 6 feet was $90. It was 1/2-10 2 start.
Dave



edit: I just found a separate thread from you about this very question. You recommended the MSC.

Hi Joe.

Just started reading about this machine. ( last few posts)

I have a wooden glider that I would like to build and it has hundreds of small accurate plywood parts.

I would like to consider making a machine like yours to do this project on. Do you have plans that I can buy and do you sell a kit of the components that are required to build it?

I don't meant to be cutting corners but I am not very computer literate and to read the total number of posts that have been written since you started this machine are overwelming.

Thanks for you consideration.

Wally

Wally,

This machine might be perfect for cutting those parts. You can review the pdf/autocad/solidworks files @ http://mail.lumenlab.com/~joe2000chevy/CNC_Model_2006_R-1/ and download them there. He released those for free. While he doesn't offer all of the components such as nuts and bolts and hardware, he compiled a list in that pdf doc in there of what to buy. He does however sell kits of all the MDF & HDPE parts together in one bundle. Send him a pm or email. And don't worry, this thread is overwhelming, to read its entirety would take hours. There is a strong user base here that have built and are running the machine (including myself) and that's what makes this machine so powerful; the ability to talk and get support from others.

Well said Brian, If anyone has any questions just email or message me I try my best to help and awnser everyones questions, I get alot but i believe i have responded to all.

this is a great forum and everyone has some good ideas and additions to the machine.

Thanks, Joe

those who have upgraded to the 1/2-8 2 start has anyone found that the bearings are tight on the acme rod?

I got some and the 1/2" bearings i have and i had to hammer them on over the acme rod, the acme rod mics at exactly 0.500" but the bearings measure 0.497 i.d., and also the dumbster antobacklash are tight, wonder if its just my rods?

Joe

those who have upgraded to the 1/2-8 2 start has anyone found that the bearings are tight on the acme rod?

I got some and the 1/2" bearings i have and i had to hammer them on over the acme rod, the acme rod mics at exactly 0.500" but the bearings measure 0.497 i.d., and also the dumbster antobacklash are tight, wonder if its just my rods?

Joe

That seems strange to me, you might expect some slight deformation in the thread diameter when the thread is formed but bearing tolerances are usually extremely tight the final id process being grinding [presumably]...mjh

Joe, long time no talk.

I found the same problem. I spun the ACME with a drill and used a file to reduce the outside diameter slightly as OCNC recommended to me. Worked great.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=95699&postcount=68

Steve

I did not have any problems Joe. My rod came from McMasters.

I'll check mine when I get home tonight. I got mine from MSC.

David and Fade2Black, can you mic both and let me know what you get?

Joe, long time no talk.

I found the same problem. I spun the ACME with a drill and used a file to reduce the outside diameter slightly as OCNC recommended to me. Worked great.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=95699&postcount=68

Steve

Thanks steve, that is a good idea, i need to make a stand for it and see if i can sligntly reduce the dia.

It looks like it will not take to much to do, Wish you had some pictures when you did it.. lol

Joe

I checked my 1/2-8 2 start rod and it mics at .497 and I got it at Enco. The 1/2 bearing goes on okay but it doesn't slide easily, which I guess is alright. What concerns me is that the Dumpster AB nuts feel kind of snug. They go on, but I need to apply a certain amount of strength to get them threaded on. Maybe it's normal for these types of delrin nuts, but I haven't seen this on my other machine which uses brass ACME nuts on a 1/2-10 single start.


Edit: Whoopsss.....I got my threaded rods at MSC

Please tell me that I'm not going to have a problem...please!

Joe

For those upgrading to 1/2"-8 rods what is the main purpose for this? speed? What is your expected ipm that you wish to cut at? What type of material are you usually cutting?

Thanks,
Bob

I checked both of mine as well as my bearings and they were all dead on at .500"

-Paul

Wow this thread is HUGE! May be the biggest so I am going to add my name to it. Cheers all! :)

For those upgrading to 1/2"-8 rods what is the main purpose for this? speed? What is your expected ipm that you wish to cut at? What type of material are you usually cutting?

Thanks,
Bob

Bob,
I think this all started when some were having problems with whipping of the X axis rod. By going from 1/2-10 single start to 1/2-8 2 start, the motors do not have to spin as fast to achieve the same ipm. In other words, lower torque, higher speed and less whipping. I'm sure someone else can/will do a much better technical explanation but based on higher speeds and less whipping, that was good enough for me.

For me at least, I'll probably only be working in the 60-80 ipm range which is what I think "Original Joe" is working in. I personally cannot see myself working with anything but hardwoods, softwoods, ply and mdf.

I hope that helps,
Joe

I checked my 1/2-8 2 start rod and it mics at .497 and I got it at Enco. The 1/2 bearing goes on okay but it doesn't slide easily, which I guess is alright. What concerns me is that the Dumpster AB nuts feel kind of snug. They go on, but I need to apply a certain amount of strength to get them threaded on. Maybe it's normal for these types of delrin nuts, but I haven't seen this on my other machine which uses brass ACME nuts on a 1/2-10 single start.


Edit: Whoopsss.....I got my threaded rods at MSC

Please tell me that I'm not going to have a problem...please!

Joe

You should not have any problem at all, the Dumpster Anti-backlash will work good, remember to use some lube on it maybe a dry lube .

Joe

Nice model joe. That would be a nice machine to have.

Isaac

Were you able to finish?

Were you able to finish?


If you are refering to the leadscrew mod, I added it to the Mod section here.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29977&page=3

Joe

Hi, I am planning to build Joe's machine and I have a bunch of aluminum parts to cut - 0.020 and 0.032 inch thick 6061 aluminum. Can anyone suggest the best cutter and rpm for this type of work?

Hi, I am planning to build Joe's machine and I have a bunch of aluminum parts to cut - 0.020 and 0.032 inch thick 6061 aluminum. Can anyone suggest the best cutter and rpm for this type of work?

I believe Ger21 has a good link to a basic chart, he will prob. post a link.
But if i remember right you are looking for a HSS bit and depending on the dia. 8-10ipm max. cutting depth of 0.05" with matbe spraying wd40 or somthing on the bit.

Joe

There are kinda two ways of getting things in life: The Fast Way and the Cheap Way.

I'm always on the cheap route. Since i dont have the money to spend in the first place.

Never the less, I have had the thought to make Joes machine from Stainless or from Aluminum. But i have a few questions. Aluminum and Stainless are a whole lot more rigid than MDF and HDPE or even UHMWPE. My questions (since i am no expert in materials) is, Joe, You plans call for 3/4" materials on everything. How thick (and this is to any and everyone) would you suggest i make the parts if they were being made from Aluminum and Stainless respectivly. Like, 1/4, 1/2?

Its really a cost question. 1/2 sheets of aluminum are going to be far cheaper to buy (and have cut, I met a mad with a Water Scythe who cuts by the hour and so the thinner, the faster, the faster, the cheaper, you get the drift.)

I'd thought Aluminum would be a good idea, because it lightweight, and because of the rigidity.

Anyone here built one of these from anything other than the manufacter suggested materials?

My ultimate plan is to take as long as i need to get the most CNC for my money (which of there isnt allot) But i dont want a low qulity CNC.

Where might i be pointed for different options on Controller Boards, Steppers, and the like?

I appreciate all the help.

Hi kb18951452,

Here is one thing to keep in mind (and this is my technical side coming out). Acoustic impedance in a material is inversely proportional to the density (assuming all other factors are equal). The Q factors for Al and Steel are approximately in the same ballpark (very high with sharply defined narrow resonance bands), so the dampening of these materials will be similar. It follows that if you want the most vibration free router table you would go for the heaviest possible material for the table. There is a reason saw manufacturers make table saw tops out of case iron and not aluminum. With Aluminum tops, when a resonance point is hit, the whole thing usually begins to shimmy and shake all over the place.

That all being said, MDF has a high vibrational dampening. So it acutally doesn't vibrate to much.

Keeping this in mind, it would probably be a good idea to make the top cutting surface, in fact the while x-y bed, out of MDF. This would reduce your vibrations, especially when you hit a resonance point at a specific x-y position with motors and router all running just at the right speed and all feeding into the vibrations. The gantry parts and z axis can all probably be made out of Aluminum with no problems.

My main reson for building from aluminum is that for some reason i feel like if i make it from MDF its gonna fall apart. Am i just wrong on this? MDF just sounds like a low quality material. I understand the vibrations point (good point by the way) but i don't think i will get a new design for a very very very long time, and aluminum sounded like a good idea because i can move it, and it can take the punishment for a long time. The other reason is that i live in south east texas and we get allot of water. I know i would lose my steppers and boiards if there were ever water damager, but i thought "Spend the money now and make it from aluminum or stainless, and youll never fear of losing it to a leaky roof"

Another thing if that it felt like if i make it from aluminum or stainless i would be able to get a higher degree of tolerance fomrt he machine. I'm not looking for tolerances like .001, but it would be nice to get pretty good tolerance (i dont know what pretty good is, i only know that in the thousanths is great)

Would Rubber placed between all the joins of the machine fix my vibration problems?

Or what about making a table along with it outta super heavy matrials and bolting everything together like i was preparing for Combat? Would a heavy Duty table fix my problems?

BTW What problems do vibrations cause?

I Have Big Problem I Cant Faind Step Motors Cean You Tall Me Where I Can Find Them Some Web Page To Bay Thanks

The water issue will be a problem with the MDF. It is an engineered material. It has excellent dimensional stability, but it really sucks when it gets wet. I gave my machine 2 coats of paint. Kills antimildew primer and then an oil enamel top coat. You could give it a coat of epoxy which is what the wooden boat builders do (but they also don't use MDF). Don't know quite what to recomend here. But any standing water will be a problem.

As far as vibrations, they tend to loosen things up a bit (like hold-down fixtures and things). Thying to think if it could cause any inaccuracy problems and nothing comes to mind except having things loosen up.

Not sure if making it out of metal will lead to much more accuracy. The things that effect that are more like step size, screw pitch, lash, whipping, microstepping ability, accuracy of lead screw thread cut.

I Have Big Problem I Cant Faind Step Motors Cean You Tall Me Where I Can Find Them Some Web Page To Bay Thanks
Edit/Delete Message

Before i can determine what i wanna make my machine out of, i should probably think about my stepper motor size.

Joe suggested that with an aluminum design or stainless steel there would be some upgrading i would wanna do, and i agree. The other thing he pointed out is that i am gonna wanna get bigger motors.

This is the problem. I don't have my eye on any controllers or motors.

I have some motors that i have collected from Copy Machines. They look about as big as the motors that i see on some of yalls machines. They dont have information listed on them, so.... i can't tell you much about them.

Never the less, i wanna get my mind wrapped aroudnt he cost of things i can't scrounge for, The Controllers and Steppers.

I don't know much on the subject. Is there a good place for me to go to find out on them? Or better yet, What kits are yall using? And what oz/in motors?

I am assuming that the bigger the oz, the faster the cutting can be?

One last question before i press submit. If speed wasn't a big deal for me (yet) what might i do to use the motors i have? Get the controller i am gonna want, then go leadscrews with more threads per inch?

I have a question on the 1/2" x 8 rods. If it is 2 start then how many turns per inch is it when calculating steps for Mach setup? Is it 4 per inch since there are 2 starts or does that not matter?