Can I get some opinions on this? http://cgi.ebay.com/Dayton-4x8-CNC-Router-Low-Cost-Machine_W0QQitemZ6011111929QQcategoryZ75680QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
further specs

> Item 4x8 router
> Table Size 9.8x6.2
> X,Y,Z working area 4x8
> X,Y,Z Traveling Positioning Accuracy 0008
> X,Y,Z Repositioning Accuracy 0003
> Lathe Structure no rotary attachment
> Y Structure 3/4 Ballscrew
> X, Z Structure Ballscrew in both x and z
> Max Consumer Power 220 single phase
> Max Speed 200 IPM rapid
> Max Working Speed 160 IPM rapid
> Spindle Power Motor 1.5hp
> Working Mode G
> Spindle Speed 1000 to 20,000
> Working Voltage 220 single phase
> Command G & M
> Operating System Windows PC
> Interface Printer port connection
> Blade Diameter up to 1/3 shank
> XY Working Tolerance .0008 +- .0003
> Software Mach1 demo
> Packing Size 10ft X 7ft
> Net Weight 1,360


Thanks,
Brendin

Looks like a nice machine for the money. I can't tell for sure, but is the frame/body made from metal or MDF? The answer to that would change a lot of things... ;)

I am pretty sure it is made of steel. I suspect it is made in China. There aren't very many specs listed for it though. It might be a good base though to start with. Better components could be added later or could they?

Brendin

300 oz steppers are pretty small for a machine of that size, and I suspect the drives aren't as good as Geckos, but that's just a guess.

I could install better steppers and gecko drives. As long as the rest of the table is good. Anyone see any obvious design flaws?

Here is another low priced 4x8 table http://cgi.ebay.com/4-X-8-CNC-Router-Table_W0QQitemZ7560338929QQcategoryZ57122QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
thoughts?

Thanks,
Brendin

I could install better steppers and gecko drives. As long as the rest of the table is good. Anyone see any obvious design flaws?

Here is another low priced 4x8 table http://cgi.ebay.com/4-X-8-CNC-Router-Table_W0QQitemZ7560338929QQcategoryZ57122QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
thoughts?

Thanks,
Brendin

It says it includes Mach software and connects via USB. Mach2 or 3 don't work with USB, though. Parallel port only. 0 feedback would make me a little nervous too.

Here are the specs for the Dayton unit...

> Item 4x8 router
> Table Size 9.8x6.2
> X,Y,Z working area 4x8
> X,Y,Z Traveling Positioning Accuracy 0008
> X,Y,Z Repositioning Accuracy 0003
> Lathe Structure no rotary attachment
> Y Structure 3/4 Ballscrew
> X, Z Structure Ballscrew in both x and z
> Max Consumer Power 220 single phase
> Max Speed 200 IPM rapid
> Max Working Speed 160 IPM rapid
> Spindle Power Motor 1.5hp
> Working Mode G
> Spindle Speed 1000 to 20,000
> Working Voltage 220 single phase
> Command G & M
> Operating System Windows PC
> Interface Printer port connection
> Blade Diameter up to 1/3 shank
> XY Working Tolerance .0008 +- .0003
> Software Mach1 demo
> Packing Size 10ft X 7ft
> Net Weight 1,360

Brendin,

Unless you want to be a guinea pig, insist on references from the company. You need to talk to customers who are using this machine. Get their feedback before you purchase.

Carlo

It will be well over $5000 delivered. Nearest port? Like Wilmington or Oakland, or nearest truck freight terminal.
Not bad but, there are no closeups, and no pictures from the back; the "Sunny USA" address makes me nervous too.
Also from the way the light reflects in one of the images it appears that the white metal may be quite thin.
What diameter are the ballscrews, one has to be around 9 ft long. How is the gantry stiffened? What type of bearings are used on the rails? Is there a power supply for the steppers?
There are missing and inconsistent details that could make this a good or bad deal.
Ask a bunch of questions; the way the answers are handled will tell you a lot.

I don't know what to say.....
Here is another one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6009460579&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Starting bid: $4,299.00
Its hard to believe that somebody sells this kind of toy for the price of the spindle (1.5 HP 1000 to 24000 RPM, Water Cooled)

I don't know what to say.....
Here is another one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6009460579&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Starting bid: $4,299.00
Its hard to believe that somebody sells this kind of toy for the price of the spindle (1.5 HP 1000 to 24000 RPM, Water Cooled)

Not one photo shows details of the machine. Would it cost them to open the doors and get some close up shots?

Carlo

There are simple "do not buy" filters for this kind of business.
Shipping insurance and credit cards.
Legit businesses offer and use both.

We actually checked out one of their "higher end" routers. It was poorly made and the cutting speed was painful. Maybe 60 IPM and they were cutting foam. The system chattered at that speed. They called me today and offered a "stripped down verson" for 3k.. I asked them the difference between the "Stripped down version" and the one they showed me several weeks ago for for $12,000. I was told nothing it is the same machine. They sem pretty desperate. This one I would warn you to stay away from. By the way it is made in Vietnam..

The machine looks ok to me, except it appears to have a center driven ballscrew AND a very short distance between bearings on the gantry. This could cause some serious problems with off center cutting. I am also interested in one of these machines, but for about 7 - $10,000 you can get one that is much better with racks on both sides and Hiwin linear rails.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Industrial-CNC-Router-51-x-98-x-8_W0QQitemZ7564636978QQcategoryZ57122QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Much less if you get it straight from the source :)

http://xhy-neon.en.alibaba.com/product/50054773/50249439/CNC_Router/CNC_Router.html

cncaddict, do you know anyone who has bought one of those? Me and a friend have been looking at them for weeks and don't know if they would hold up or not.

Definitely made in China. The problem, like other things from China is no support or parts. Just like the Pocket Bikes, no one is the same and made from any parts that they can find. Ive head the control and software is very bad.
China is sending over disposible junk (at very low prices) that works for a while then wears out and you can't fix. (Just like Gecko drives)

I tried to deal with BOTH of the guys selling these machines on eBay. The guy in the Boston area wanted me to send him the money and then hope that I got the machine. He would not let me use an escrow service. Right after I decided NOT to deal with him, eBay took him down. Then someone else listed the machine with the exact same ad. He has tried to sell it at least three times without the reserve being met.
Another guy on eBay has several sizes of these machines listed. He will not respond to emails. I would REALLY watch out for him.
FINALLY.... I tried to deal with a guy in Chippewa Falls, WI on one of these Chinese machines. I made an appointment to meet with him and inspect the machine. I flew from Phoenix to Minneapolis and then made the drive to Chippewa Falls. The only problem was that he wasn't there!!! His shop was an old woodworking shop located behind his home. The machines were in a far back corner buried in debris.
I was able to see the machine, however. It has a cast iron table and uses rack an pinion on the X and Y axis. It seems to be built fairly well, but the electronics were not enclosed leading me to assume that they were installed here.
Also, if you read the fine print, you will see that the USB controller only works in metric. You download your G-Code via USB to the controller's 32MB on-board memory. If you want SAE sizing and controls, you have to set it up with a PC and forego the 32MB onbaord memory option.
After going to Texas, Minneapolis, Seattle, and making hundreds of calls, I've decided to go with Shop Sabre. They have the best looking (but certainly NOT cheapest) machine. They assemble and test it with YOUR PC and have the best support after the sale. Oh. Yeah. Did I mention that they were there when I visited their professional-looking shop?

Good info...I'll stay away...

Brendin

I just received my Dayton router from China (Sunny USA). I must say it needed some extra TLC. The base of the router is a sand casting. The stand is thin wall square tubing. Wiring was screwed up when I received it. The stepper controllers were mis-wired and I had to make an adaptor cable to go from the 25 pin printer port to a 15 pin on the controller. Has 3 prox. switches for limits. Ball screws look to be of good quality. The stepper drivers are working fine with Mach 3 software. The max speed I can get is 150 ipm fast traverse and about 100 ipm cutting (300 oz-in motors). The router came with NO documentation but hopefully I will be getting some soon. All things considered I think it's a good buy if your on a limited budget like I am. It appears this is the first of the routers shipped surely things will get better :o). If I can answer any more questions I will be happy to.

ATECHY
sounds like pure luxury ! I purchased my router in Sep paided up front, heard nothing till Jan, wasn't shipped till Feb, Arrived 26th Mar, (i did however get the rack mounted instead of ball screw for both X and Y axis - as a freebe due to the delays, Which tells me they weren't even built when I ordered / paid for mine)
As I'm in Australia we are 17 Hours in front - and no one wants to talk to you or answer ALL your questions, they just choose the parts they can blaim someone else for and answer only those bits.

x axis is single stepper in middle of table the rack is in two pieces and at the join the stepper binds - cause of problem two stripped screws
Gantry supports that secure to the x-axis (linear slides ) were loose - needed the bed lifting to tighten the mounting screws.
the z-axis housing assembly the secures to the y-axis linear slide was so loose that the stepper made a funny grinding sound when moved by hand along the gear rack. - now everthing is tight the y-axis binds in places
the bed is 8ft x 4ft T-slot Aluminium made up of 110mm wide pieces screwed to the table- not one of them are at the same height

I have no documentation at all

I don't know which pins of the Router Connecter (looks like a games port -15pins) go to which pins on the printer port of the computer (if that's how you connect it up)

the LCD display has letters in front of some numbers - have no idea what they represent.

I do know that the spindle will spin at 1RPM -but has no torque
and has a max speed of 54000 - not loaded (according to the LCD display)

Sorry I don't have with any photos with me of the uneven bed I was discribing (but can add them tommorow if Ppl want to see them)

If anyone wants a copy of all the e-mail traffic to get a feel for what they are buying please e-mail me

Other than these small issues <tic> the machine is heavly welded the gantry arms are solid 1'' plate and I think that if it had arrived with documentation, I would have worked thru the issues above, but that was the straw for me! I am now in the middle of trying to return the router but it looks like it will be at my cost (Approx $2kUSD) and that is just to china not sure if I will have to pay for return to me

SO......

Here is my options
I get some info on comnnecting the router to the computer (hope you can help atechy)

I find out how to align the z-axis to the table so it drives vertically down and not at an angle - this could be difficalt as the table is uneven)

or
I walk away from the whole deal and try to recover my costs (but I don't think they will give me back the $1,500USD it cost me to clear customs and have it delivered)

Note:

you will notice in Photo ..1686 that there is a white substance between the Silver Aluminium and the red C-section this looks like some form of alluminium paste. It's pursore, that is - I'm guessing it's purpose is to .... Provide a layer for the table to sit above..
I say this as when I removed one of the T-slot runners to tighten a few bolts I noticed it had been poorly machined and in places even looked like it had been hack-sawed to something slightly resembling a flat surface - Noting this I guessed it's purpose was to create a FLAT and LEVEL area upon which to mount the T-Sloted runners.....

If this had been done correctly I beleive the table would be fantastic ! (unless the extruded T-slot Aluminium was not very precise)

any option would be greatly appriciated and sorry for the long post

still no further word here is a close up of the electronics

I have also taken note on how the 15 Pin D connector is wired


_______________
| 8 o o o o o o 1|
\ 15 o o o o o 9 / looking at the connector end
\___________/

1 N.C
2 Z Cp-
3 Y Cp-
4 X Cp-
5 N.C
6 Blue wire (goes to one of the end / home switchs)
7 Green Wire (goes to one of the end / home switchs)
8 Red wire (goes to one of the end / home switchs)
9 X Cw-
10 y Cw-
11 Z Cw-
12 N.C
13 N.C
14 BLK wire (goes to one of the end / home switchs)
15 Yellow goes to X (Cw+) then joins thru daisy chain to X(CP+) to Y (Cw+) to Y (CP+) to Z (Cw+) then to Z (Cp+) and finally to the Wite wire that is connected to an end / home switch.

Hope this help if this discription does not help I will put something down with a drawing

ATECHY

As you mentioned the wiring was all screwed up

Here is a copy of the E-Mail that was sent to me regarding the wiring

QUOTE"
the software I'm useing Mach3 this is what i used to wire it.
Hear is the Wireing for a 15 pin to 25 pin connector.

If you don't have home limit / prox switche's Ignore them.
The step and direction Opto-isolator's are wired backward's Lossen the screw's on Green conector's top of stepper box'es, pry the glue and wire's away from the Conector and reinstal them as listed below.

Do not conect the Prox/ home switch'es at this time.

This show's the 15 to 25 pin conection.

15pin conn. 25 Pin conn.
1. N/C 1. N/C
10. Black---------- 2. X Dir. CW +
3. White---------- 3. X Pls. CP +
9. Black---------- 4. Y Dir. CW +
4. White---------- 5. Y Pls. CP +
11. Black--------- 6. Z Dir. CW +
2. White---------- 7. Z Pls. CP +
5. N/C 8. N/C
12. N/C 9. N/C
13. N/C 10. N/C
8. Red------------ 11. X Home Switch DO NOT CONNECT WITH OUT READING
NOTE 1:
7. Green----------- 12. Y Home Switch DO NOT CONNECT WITH OUT READING NOTE 1:
6. Blue------------ 13. Z Home Switch DO NOT CONNECT WITH OUT READING NOTE 1:
14..N/C
15. N/C
17. N/C
18. - 21. N/C (Common, Gnd.)
14. Black---------- 22. Gnd. for Home Switch'es
15. Yellow-------- 23. X CP -, X CW -, Y CP -, Y CW -, Z CP -, CW - , ( All ganged together is fine.)



NOTE:1 The Home Switche's on this machine are being powered by 36 Volt Power
Supply

If you have home switches, disconnect the Power and Ground wire for them and power them from your computer 5 volt and Gnd.

The main power plug center pin is the Gnd for the machine It is not connected solder a proper size wire to it and Gnd it on Machine frame.

UNQUOTE"

Well as you can see this thakes care of some of my problems, and should help a few others if they are thinking of buying one of these machines

NOW< ! how do you ensure everything is square, the rails are parralell and the router will cut accuratley

I have started making an adapter to interface with the 15 pin plug on the
router ( I think it will be quicker than trying to make the current hole in
the electronics box bigger for the parallel socket. once I have done this, I
will rewire the driver amps and let you know the details...

While I was waiting for the wife to return with the wire and additional
plugs etc..I have started looking into the "aligning of the bed" issue. I
guessed the only way to do this was to ensure that all axis's were true.
I have measured the left X-axis rail and found it to be all over the
shop ( what I mean is that over a 10" gap ( one mounting screw to the
next ) I have calculated the several shims would need to be added some as
much as 0.0195" .....Is this "way out" or do you think it is acceptable ?

I have attached a photo to show how I was able to measure the rail...

the first photo (..1770) shows how the parallel was set square to the rail
before taking the reading.

the next Photo (.1776) shows the spirit level turned 90Degrees to read the
angle of incline. As per the notes in the photo, a shim was placed between
the parallel and rail.

Before taking the new reading of incline, step one (first photo ) was
repeated with the shim fitted. due to the tolerance of the level 5seconds
per division (0.00025" per 10 inches or 0.025mm per Meter) I guessed that
if the bubble was close to the middle then it was good enough.

What are your thoughts ? Should the rail be this far out? Or is it a
point of fact that the weapons of choice used are way too accurate for the
job and a 0.0195" over 10" is within Tol. ?

After clearing out the swarf and before fixing the shims under the rail I leveled the table over all (required a 1/4" plate to be added to the underside of the front legs)

I then re-attached the rail and started mapping the differance from point 1 to point 2, from 2 to 3, 3 to 4 and so on till I had all 14 points covered.

Here ia a copy of the mapping I did before I added Shims (notice how the overall rail slopes down hill -from left to right. I when back and ground off 0.010" from the 1/4 plate _ this has the effect of lowering point 1 and raising point 14 - Of COURSE it does change the size of the shims required,

So before recalculating all points I also took to points 1, 2, 8, and 9 with some wet and dry paper again further reducing the shims required.

I will recheck the shims required, Remap and if all is good (basically level ) I will permanantly secure them and this will be the left X rail done

once I have leveled the first rail My plan is to move onto the other side of the table and using the following method I should have the X_Axis all squared away

.....using the linear slide on the left rail as a hold down for a 4' bar that would extend over the table to the other rail

this bar would have a level on the top of it and a pin that would contact the top of the right rail
mounted under the bar would be a DTI

this would allow me to gauge if the right rail was heigher or lower than the left and closer or further away (as the DTI is set to touch the side of the right rail

Hi...
It looks like you've purchased the same router as I did. I was wondering if I might pick your brain a bit? I did the following....
1. hooked the machine up to 220 power (seemed to work)
2. took out the 15 pin and replaced it with a 25 pin (I suspect I've done this incorrectly, as I hooked up the pins in the same order --1=1, 13=13, and so on--)
3. Downloaded SHOP BOT software

As you know, I have NO documentation, no idea what's up. People are mentioning this MACH 3 software? What's that?

Any help you might be able to give would be much appreciated. -john

John,
Mach3 is like BobCam or MasterCam or any other CNC Software it however does have tool path and is only $159-ish US here is a link to the home page .

http://www.machsupport.com/artsoft/index/index.htm

Mach3 does allow you to perform upto 1000 lines of G Code under the evaluation verson, on any pattern you decide. I have also got some more details on adding additional stops and what is considered X+ and X- that I could post but it will be a few days before this happens

A very inportant item is to remove the 36volts from the home switches as this is MOST LIKELY TO KILL your parallel port, I suggest using the +5Volt from a computer power supply as the parrallel port is able to handle this voltage

Mark

All the doccumentation I have on the stepper Amps at this stage is on post 21 of this folder, I was offered a Chinese Manual which I turned down as I could not read C/nees - I will try and get a copy of this again and post if Possible. the only other details that might help you are of the part numbers on the stepper motor it's self ( again seen Photos in post 20) I think the part number of the stepper is
85HYGH450A-06
or
85BYGH450A-06

POST OFFERED BY CNCQuest on another folder

Salty72,

I checked my files and I saw a stepper motor 85BYGH450C-007 that has the following specs:
1.8 degrees/step
2.5 V
6A/phase
resistance - 0.48 ohm/phase
inductance - 2.3 mH/phase
Holding Torque - 70 kg-cm
8 wires bipolar hybrid stepper motor
Is this specs almost same as what you have？

A copy of the Chinese stepper driver manual will be of great help. Do you have the model no. of the stepper driver? I can check the various Chinese websites to find the specs if needed. Thanks.

here is some Info that was sent to me about the stepper driver CW250

... hope it helps others

guys you might also want to read the following thread it talks about gekos and how to connect steppers and drivers up

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12890&page=7&pp=15

On top of the stepper driver CW250 specs Salty72 had posted over from the other thread, I am reposting the specs of the stepper motor 85BYGH450A-06 here.

I will suggest that those who have the DB15 pin connector change it to a DB25 pin connector with a simple breakout board so that you may have more input/output from the parallel port for things like switches, coolant, spindle control, charge pump, relays, etc.

As I have indicated in the other thread/folder, I can read and write Chinese and thus, I was able to search the various Chinese websites to come up with the needed specs. Feel free to ask if I can be of further help.

I am in the final stages of converting my ZAY7032 milling machine to CNC and I just need to finish the electronics/electrical parts where I am using another type of Chinese stepper driver.

A Quick up date -- I have aligned the left rail and created what a am now calling the MASTER RAIL ( this rail has a MAX incline of 0.075mm in any meter or 0.00075" in any 10")

One thing I have noticed is, The rail measures different in the morning to the afternoon , and if I place 15Lb on the edge of the table half way down it's length, the reading changes to as high as 0.09mm over the meter.. To this end I feel I have, for want of a better word ..."waisted some time in this alignment"!, (chair)

I have read some people are using extream measures to align their table 0.008" wire and microscopes to ensure their rails are straight. but if 15lb approx 4ft away can make a 0.00075" differance this is obviously beyond the limits of a 500Kg machine using welded 4x4" square tube and 4x2" C-Channel.
this is just the ramblings of a workshop prisoner*


Definitions:

(1) Workshop prisoner = Bloke who has been chained to one task beyond the point of fun, enjoyment, and learning.

I must appologies (sp) in advance I was sent an E-Mail from a bloke in WA (australia) who has just bought a Dayton router off eBay Thinking that his details would be on the ZONE, I deleted it from my mail account without replying.... I am SOOO...SORRY...

Could that person please send their details again through PM and I will be only too happy to respond

Once again SORRY (don't worry I've given myself an UPPERCUT :boxing: )

(chair) Quote " STIMPY, YOUR SO SUPID !!!.." [in the voice of Rene, from the Rene and Stimpy show] (chair)

OK. Stupid question here. If you are using this machine for woodworking, why can't you just put a sacrificial MDF bed on the machine and plane it with a flat router bit? That is what I was told to do with my Shop Sabre. That way the bed is flat and square to the spindle.
I realize that there will be dimensional changes due to heat and weight, but I would think that the planing operation would make the machine operable without trying to level and square the cast bed.
I am new to this and am NOT trying to be a smart a**. I am just trying to get a handle on the nuances of CNC operation. I have been reading your posts with great interest. I almost purchased one of these machines. Luckily for me, I couldn't get either of the two vendors to respond to my inquiries.
Again....Eagerly awaiting your reply.

Salty72 have you resolved your problems? I'm sorry I haven't responded but I've been out of town working. So if you have any questions or unresolved problems I'll see if I can help. I still have no documentation. As it stands right now I need documentation on the drive. The stepper drivers I've mostly figured out along with the computer connection. The 15 pin connector limits the number of "additional features" but most of everything can be used through it. The table flatness problem can be resolved by installing a sacrificial piece of MDF and machine it off (as mentioned by Svelt). I tried to flatten the table with shims but it was far to time consuming. Right now my bigger problem is the X-axis whipping (ball screw) on fast traverse. I'm afraid it will break something if I don't get it worked out. My router motor with a 1" protruding bit still has about 4" to reach the table. I solved this by machining a 3/4" adaptor plated to extend it almost to the table top. This also allowed me to square-up the servo motor with the table top (as best as I could). I found some ER-11 collets at ENCO. They don't snap into the nut but they do hold the tool without any appreciable run out. I've done some cutting with the machine and for the most part it works well. I figure one day to update the stepper drivers and motors as soon as I figure out how to keep the X-axis from beating the table to death. I'm not too sure we will get much help from the Sunny USA team, so I figure we are own our own. Good Luck!

Svelte
You are correct this is by far the fastest way to remove inaccuracy, however if the rails are not parralle then they bind and ware out way to fast, and MDF will not align the Z axis other points to consider are MDF is not permanant and does require a remachine for each operation. (as you know MDF changes quite a lot with moisture etc..)

One of the two major reasons for this exercise are :....I want to use a vacuume system to clamp stuff down

And 2nd I'm hoping to be able to machine a few of the plastic parts required for the airforce (thus I need to get the table certified)

last point if you are still looking to purchase have a look at this page http://feedback.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=usamarket999&frm=1728

the feed bacl is honest - they do take for ever to deliver but as they also say the product is good

****Ultimately If I knew it was Chinese made I would not have expected so much - but in reality you would be hard pressed to buy the parts for the cost I paid

So based on that as I was going to build one, and well this will give me the experience whilst I go to TAFE to learn CNC programing..... Also It will allow others to purchase a machine that is cheep and know that with some effort they can have a fully functional machine)

Atechy

thanks for your help you said you found some Er-11 collets do you have a photo of them ? also did your table not come with a water cooled VFD spindle? you might have noticed one or two of my photos show the underside of the table, and that I'm running a rach and pinion system - It might be something to consider if you can't resolve the Z-xais Whip

Thanks for clearing up my confusion. For my woodworking operations, it looks like the MDF will work just fine. I have one advantage in that my shop is completely air conditioned and I live in the Sonoran desert. We don't have much of a problem with large moisture swings here and when we do enter our "monsoon" season, it is VERY hot. That's when the air conditioning pays off. It also removes most of the moisture in the air.
The only thing that I have to certify is my ability to run this darn thing. I have a partner with over 20 years of AutoCAD experience that will be doing my design work. I will be using BobCAD, BobArt Pro-X, and BobNest to produce my G-Code to run the machine from the design drawings. I also got a digitizing probe with my machine so that I could "scan" parts right on the machine.
I hope you get things worked out. I will be monitoring this forum to track your progress. I have learned a great deal already.
Thanks for your responses. You and Atechy are always thorough in your explanations.

Salty72 to view those ER-11 collets just go to ENCO and do a search for "ER-11 Collets". You have a choice of the ENCO brand or some name brand. My table came with the water cooled spindle but only 1 collet (metric - about 0.236") and 1 insert (1/8"). Yes unfortunately I was one of the first to order and I got the ball screw version. I think the rack conversion would be a bit on the pricey side but not out of the question.

Atechy
would it be possible to get a picture of your spindle assy, as I'm a little confused as to how the ER -11 collets will fit
thanks salty

one other Q does your router cut SQAURE ? by this I mean at 90deg to the X-axis along the y-axis

hay guys is it really 2:00Am where you are ?

well the left Rail as mentioned earlier is level, to ensure it is straight I used the tight wire method, and using a shim I tested the closeness of the rail to the wire and adjusted as required

I have decided that using the method as detailed above, was not really good enough. I felt that 0.002" was not close enough. SO in "Tim the Toolman " Style .....I borrowed from work a theodolite and some 32Gauge single strand prision resistance wire (guessing this has the most consistant diameter) I now have the rail to about 0.0003" I say about 'cause the "better half" reads it differently to me and well this I feel this is close enough. I personnally think that less than 0.001" is acceptable.

I have now moved onto aligning the right rail to the left Rail, using the method suggested in post #25 (see drawing below )

Problems so far......

the choice of horizontal beam and small bearing surface on the left side have resulted in a slight side flex, thus I can only get an accuracy of 0.001" from the DTI

I set the level to ZERO by adjusting the the srew height based on the position of the right rail WRT to the left... This is infact WRONG!! the level should be set to ZERO by aligning it along the left rail and then rotating it 90deg (perpendicular) to the left rail now raising or lowering the start of the right hand side of the table till the level reads ZERO,

you can waist a far amount of time if you don't do the corners first,

Also even thought the machine has a mass of 500Kg there is some torsional stress that has been welded into the frame and it does not actually touch the ground on all four corners, so I have dyna bolted it to the ground, and started again. both the x-axis rails are level and parrallel..

Hi Salty72,

Sounds as though your having more problems than I have. The only alignment problem I had was the table sagging in the middle due to the cross struts not being straight. When I installed the adaptor to lower the spindle motor I checked for squareness then and it was OK. I've also checked parts that I've cut and they are square. I'll see if I can get a photo of my spindle motor and post it. Right now my camera is on loan. But the ER-11 collets will replace the metric collet that came with the machine. Remove the nut on the end of the spindle and take out the metric collet and use the ER-11 in it's place. The ER-11 collet will not snap into the collet nut so you'll have to use a little persuation when removing it. I haven't checked run out with an indicator yet but by eye I can't see any run out. Hope this helps.....

Atechy

ATECHY:

thanks for that explanation I now understand..

I have now aligned the gantry (y-axis) I chose the bottom rail as the master rail and aligned it in the same fashion as the alignment of the x-axis rails. the bottom rail is level and straight the top rail is parallel to the bottom and at the same height.

I attached the gantry to the two vertical uprights and found a few problems, the first is the rails are higher on the left than the right. The second problem is that the bottom rail is further back. both of these problems are caused by the factory positioning of the bolts in the vertical supports - IN order to fix the first problem I placed 0.050" shims between the linear bearing and the underside of the vertical support. (see photo). The scond problem was very easy to fix I didn't [reason being I guess thsi will be fixed when the z-axis housing is attached

Sorry pushed the wrong button

I have now added the z-axis housing, this is where I got rid of the problem of the bottom gantry rail being further back than the top. (see photo)

and onto the next problem, these things (problems) seem to be the only consistant, and garanteed thing about this router..
Anyway when moving the z-axis housing left to right I noticed there was a ticking sound, on closer inspection I found this ticking is infact BACKLASH I measured this out at about 0.025" by moving the stepper closser to the rail I have been able to reduce the backlash to under 0.002" but this has made the sliding of the Housing more difficult to move to a point where it has no "slide" (push it and as soon you let go it stops) I this this is too tight but backlash should be surely less than 0.002"

AND AGAIN ANother DRAMA, the spindle does not touch the table, it's got to be atleast 80mm off the table.

found this on ebay 7629740166
He has bad english like me and an ad i can't understand he told me cost would
be 4700 us delivered to vancouver canada he is in china. Im sure it is the same
maker. Once again no credit card.

I think that one of the saveing features about my router was that I purchased it through an agent - but that in its self can create and E-Mail trail of over 20 standard pages !

what we probable need to do is get in contact with some one that can speak Chinese and have a list of questions translated so we can ask these guys..

Well over 4months ago I tried to contact the manufactors of my router and they have yet to respond to my E-Mail... guess I won't be getting a responce !!!

I have just sent the ebay guy this question we will see what his responce is

Is this a DAYTON router ?

what is cost of 900oz steppers?

is your spindle listed below?

Model H / Rated voltage / Rated current / Capacity / motor (HP) / motor (kW)
VG3000-P75-2H / 220 V / 4A / 1.9 KVA / 0.5 / 0.75 kW
VG3000-1P5-2H / 220 V / 7A / 3 KVA / 1 / 1.5 kW
VG3000-2P2-2H / 220 V / 10A / 4 KVA / 2 / 2.2 kW
VG3000-P75-4H / 380 V / 2.5A / 1.9 KVA / 0.5 / 0.75 kW
VG3000-1P5-4H / 380 V / 4A / 3 KVA / 1 / 1.5 kW
VG3000-2P2-4H / 380 V / 5.8A / 4.2 KVA / 2 / 2.2 kW
VG3000-3P7-4H / 380 V / 8.5A / 6.5 KVA / 5 / 3.7 kW
VG3000-4P0-4H / 380 V / 10A / 8.5 KVA / 5.4 / 4 kW
VG3000-5P5-4H / 380 V / 12.5A / 10 KVA / 7.5 / 5.5 kW

what is cost of P/N# VG3000-2P2-2H ?

On a side note the spindle I purchased with my router is a VFD P/n

VG3000-1P5-2H 220 V 7A 3 KVA 1hp 1.5 kW

I have a manual for the large 3Hp (I'm told that the principles of operation are all the same) if any one would like it i will post it here.

PLEASE do not bite my head off here, as I am aware you guys have been working your a$$e$ off! But if you were to assign an hourly rate to yourself that would be fair market value, hou much do you think you spent screwing with these routers?

I actually ask for 3 reasons, 1) I was looking into one of these a few months ago and found that the 900 oz machine could be negotiated to 5k us, but since I have half the knowledge and knowhow that you guys have, I got scared away ( THANK GOD) :banana:

2) 5K US + Countless hours = good machine? Does this equation ring true? I broke down and bought a Techno-ISEL for 22k it should be here in a few weeks, I have been asking them questions left and right and they respond promptly in English. :)

3) I like to see great minds at work and just wanted to see what you think of the purchase now that you have a little hindsight.

Regardless keep up the good work :cheers: !

Mr. Vain

I have this discussion with friends all the time, so I tell the following story.....

I was offered a machine from multi-Cam here is australia http://www.multicam.com.au/
but at $54KAUS for the basic model (no tool change, no dust extraction, and no vacuum table ) I just didn't have that type of cash.

I have NO CNC experiance, Absolutly nothing, I have done NO CAD drawing or even G-code programming. and found the CNCZONE forum by mistake one day. I read Jargo's build and thought ...."this is easy... I will build one of these one day" then I see eBay -the wealth of all things evil (in a good way :cool: )

So I started asking question to see just how cheap I could get a machine ... sending E-Mails back and forth to various suppliers and phoning people all over the place. I then placing a bid against a seller on ebay, this opened a lot more doors and a flood of information, ....but little did I know that although I had been out bid by a few thousand Dollars, all the other bidders had retracted their bids and left me holding the baby..

So that's How I got my machine.!

todate I am attending Collage after hours learning Mastercam / CNC operations / and general CNC programing / my router table -straight from the factory- would definately have been able to cut xmas cut outs and probably would have been able to carve letters out of wood far better than if I was to do it by hand.

As I had no idea how to use it and I noticed little things like stripped bolts and missing screws, paint that had been applied over swarf and other silly things, I thought I should read into this DIY CNC stuff a little further. The zone seamed to have all the answers to all the questions, so I started removing things, and only then did "Alice find out how deep the rabit hole went..."

Todate I have spent an awalfull amount of time LEARNING things like.....
Don't try to level the table if all the legs don't touch the ground (chair)
Don't try to level the axis rails 10" at a time (find out the whole error first and proceed from there )
Ascertain what it is that you will be cutting if you require a TOL of <0.009" over any 10" you will probably find the purchased table is with in TOL. to start with.

I have also experiance what I like to call "The Ederson principle" (Thomas Ederson when trying to construct a light bulb found several thousand ways that it didn't work before he actually acheived the result) and As such I have found just what it takes to make things LEVEL! , But to what end ?... I can safely say that my machine is level to 0.00075" OR BETTER over any given 10" in any given direction, and then I find that there is 0.030" backlash in the rack!! ( several Ppl have told me that backlash can be programmed out with software so is this a problem??)

One guys once summed up the purchase of anything Cheep, with " just consider the total cost of the parts and pretend like you have bought a 95% complete project..."

Some times when you do't have $22KUSD time is the only thing that seams to be available and no matter how busy you are if you truely want to acheive a result you will make the time! (wonder if you can make money???? - GET caught and TIME is the only thing you'll have :) HAY ??)

Sorry for the rather long post.... So In closing: before I bought the router table: if I had known how much work was required, then to day I would be without a router table of any discription... HOWEVER now knowing how easy (and the correct methods ) to fix these problems, I have begun working on the wife, in an attempt to convince her that..... " if we buy them for $7kAUS I spend 2 or 3 weeks (60-80 hours) "fixing 'em up" and it's only going to get quicker as I get more experiance, we should be able to sell for $15-20kAUS here is australia.

Sorry if this still leaves the options open

Salty

well I have just finished making an adapter to run from the 15D-pin supplied to the 25D-pin on the laptop, (As Per post #22 -this forum)
As the DAYTONS don't use a +5volt DC for there home switches I have also just finished modifying a 350W ATX computer power Supply, thst I had laying around to give my home limit switches a small enough voltage that will not damage my parrallel port in the lappy.

Modifying the ATX supply is easy: just short the green wire to any of the Black voltage returns. Useing a 10Watt 10ohm resister connect it accross any of the remaining +5Volt(red) to ground (Black) wires
As I was un able to get 10Watt 10ohm resister. So I have used 2x 5watt 27ohms and connected them in parrallel. Seams to work just fine (5.22VDC)

now it appears that I have some other silly problem.....

I get no movement of the z-axis when asked to move,
When I ask the y-axis to move the Z stepper moves.
and when I ask the x-axis to move both the x and the Y move....

anyone care to offer a solution short of burning this .......


Also I have made a housing to hold a BOCSH 1300ACE router that I will be posting tommorow....Might be worth posting this on some of the MDF router machines, (gives the option of speed control and 1/2" shank -with ER style collets for that good/positive centring..)

Sounds like your adapter is not pinned right. Counting DB pins is frustrating. Male plugs number from left to right as you look at the pins. Sockets (Female) number opposite. Then there is the whole issue of running off a parallel port directly......send me the pinout of the DB15 for your machine and I will make you a (free) custom adapter card to our Mini-IO low cost buffer card!

I already have adapters for Sherline controllers and several other brands.

Tom Caudle
www.CancCNC.com

TOURCHHEAD
thanks for that, the pinout is as follows
15pin--------------25 Pins
10. Black---------- 2. X Dir. CW +
3. White---------- 3. X Pls. CP +
9. Black---------- 4. Y Dir. CW +
4. White---------- 5. Y Pls. CP +
11. Black--------- 6. Z Dir. CW +
2. White---------- 7. Z Pls. CP +
5. N/C ------------8. N/C
12. N/C----------- 9. N/C
13. N/C---------- 10. N/C
8. Red------------11. X Home Switch
7. Green----------12. Y Home Switch
6. Blue------------13. Z Home Switch
14..N/C
15. N/C
17. N/C
18. - 21. N/C (Common, Gnd.)
14. Black--------- 22. Gnd. for Home Switch'es
15. Yellow-------- 23. X CP -, X CW -, Y CP -, Y CW -, Z CP -, CW - , ( All ganged together is fine.)


I have just done a full continuity from the 25 Pin connector, to the input drives of each of the stepper Amps

ANd the only erors I found so far is

Pin22 is not connected to the home retun but it is connected to GND of the ATX Power Supply,

Also nothing is connected to pins 18-21,

ANd the earth of the Parrallel cable is currntly not connected to the DB15 connector...

One question, Does it make a difference if I am using a laptop computer???

well using the home PC all is fine and I have done my first cutting today (spent the whole day setting up Mach3 and playing cutting and cutting and playing) I do like Mach3 but can't seam to get all the words to display correctly

well using my home made z-axis housing and my Bosch 1300-ACE router I set the speed to 4 (12,000RPM) inserted a 55mm Tuncston Carbide cutter and am able to cut 20mm accross by 3mm Deep at 4.6M/sec

4.6 meters a second, that's like 276meters a minute. i think you mean
4600mm/min. :)

I have put a cheap "ozito" 650w router in my table I I was cuting mdf with a straight cutting bit. 10mm wide and 5mm deep at only 1000mm/min. Anything more that that and she stalls.

How many watts is your router?
What kind of bit are you using, stratight cut. 1 flute, 2 flute, 3 flute spiral up/spiral down etc.

Apples

Apples

Sorry you are correct it was 4600mm/Min the router is a Bosch 1300ACE I thought it's was a 2Hp router but turns out is tiny http://www.toolies.com.au/catalogue/ProductDetails.html?id=3165140057738

the router bit is from carbitool unfortunately it's not on their web site yet but I can tell you it's called a surfacing Bit is 55mm in diameter it has three Tungston Carbide inserts (3.50ea) the inserts are 12mm square and 2mm thick. the bit comes loaded with inserts and costs around $180 including overnight postage

Ok As promissed here is the z housing to hold the Bosch router

Take the router

Remove The black plastice base plate

on a NEW router you will notice that one of the hole is covered in slightly you will need to break this off to insert some round bar to pussh the two height adjust slide out

remove the spring and it's slide

Now remove the screw from the height adjust lever (and remove lever an components)

To remove the other height slide

Remove the four screws from the metal base (one is located under the spindle locking lever)

Carefully lift up the metal housing to remove the armature and metal base plate.

Remove the Circlip from the remaining height slide

with armature removed rotate the router body to gain access to top two screws

remove these screws to gain access to the brush assembly area

using a small kook (alan/hex keys work well) pull the spring carefully from the back of the brush and store on the side (as per photo)

EXTEND THE BRUSHS CAREFULL NOT TO BREAK THE COPPER WIRE


************************************************************88
At this point if you are using a secondhand router it worth cleaning the comutator and relacing the brushes.

Also you might wish to replace the bearings for better quality ones as this is half the noise of a router....

***********************************************************

RE-ASSEMBLE

re-install the armature
insert and tighten the four screws attaching the metal base plate to the body
re-postition the spring onto the brush and
re-attach the plastic cover

Using 5mm MDF make templates as per pics (the better the fit the better your housing will be)

First Template should include only the three Diameters

Second Template should be the remianing portion of the metal housing

Third is nearly the same as the second but as the plastic body is slightly smaller you will have to do a bid of remodelling.

***********NOTE***********

the metal body is on a 1mm taper so when you make your template aim for a GOOD fit at the middle of the surfaces .

ALSO
you will have to cut the depth gauge from the body using a hacksaw GO SLOWLY and CAREFULLY -File smooth carefull you don't damage the plastice body

using a FLUSH trim cutter with a top bearing

cut out your shaps from 16mm high density PLYwood, the width of the housing is 250mm

position the main body at the midpoint of the plastic housing

a later MOD is to insert more timber between the handle and the midpoint support and above the mid point support then instead of the small support arms shown in the second photo replace them with something more sudstantial say 80mm wide by 120mm long (this will allow for more SCREWS !!)

Prior to installing hterouter you will need to take note of Photo 4 and insure you have the clearance hole...


***************************8
Further to this you will notice the handle stick out slightly this is good for securing the dust excracting hose to.

cut the a small slot n the hose and slide it over the handle untll it is level with the bottom of the router. using 3mm MDF wrap it around hte base and secure with a staple gun

Don't forget to break the fibers of the MDF with a pair of pliers around the botton edge (makes a very simple brush)

and here it is cutting

Sorry for the really dark Video... is was taken around 23:40Hrs

not sure if anyone is interested but here is a PDF of my nex Z-axis housing that I'm currently getting machined

Well my housing has been machined for a few weeks now and I just realised I hadden posted any PIC's so here they are the first is the underside of the y-axsis stepper motor

(notice the slotted holes and the bearing pivot bush- this is designed to allow the stepper motor to move closer and further away from the rack thus reducing Backlash to less than 0.001" and maintaining a constant contact face even after ware and tear)

the second photo is the top showing the tension spring adjustment (crude but effective) the spring is about 1.5mm on a 10mm diameter I cut it to length and reduced the diameter of the start to ensure positive location with the NYLOCK nut..

I have doccumentation on the Spindle Controller and all it's set up details etc.. but once ZIP'd I can't seam to get it to Upload here .....

So if anyone wants it pleasae give me your E-amil and I will send (it's MS_Word 2003 )

Hi SAlty,

how is your machine performing? are you making any money out of it?

Just trying to review this thread......... has been dead for too long :)

RGDS
irfan

I am making bit of money, the upgrade of the spindle to the router means I can insert larger endmills, but the stepper motors are low torque so I have to upgrade these, if I want to cut faster than 1200mm/Min in 1/2" PLYwood, and still use an 8mm end mill.

jobs I have done are Xmas cut-outs, wooden house signs, and some 3D mold manufacturing, I have even cut T7 7075 Aluminium but this is slow going

Hi Salty,

why dont you try out some Brushed DC servo with UHU drives?, have you seen the UHU servo thread, many people use them or jut go in for a dc motors with encoders and gecko320, u can go a lot more. U have rack and pinion so thats the difficult part to reduce speed........else you can ask suggestions from keling cnc for upgrade on the stepper motors and drives, he might as well configure and send you the entire package!, i got good steppers from him I believe, though havent put tehm on my router.

all this if you have earned enough to upgrade! :)

also look at teh forum www.mechmate.com for ideas, especially the thread which tells "how to get the budget approved".

how is you router doing and what is the longest time you had kept it ON.

did you change any bearings or carbon brushes on your router?

Regards
Irfan

I looked at a few SERVO motor Options but as you pointed out they drive at speed and it would mean that some sort of reduction was required, I did however like the option of feedback faster and quiter running options,

I followed up on some steppers that were offered on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260173936743&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:AU:1123)

to find out that I can get some 34-Frame stepper motors. At 8.7Nm (> 1000"/oz) Holding torque,these motors at 4.2Amps should be suitable for use with my current (bipolar) drivers. I am just waiting on price..So fingers crosed...tommorow I should hear back.

As to max time I have run the CNC it would have probably been cuttting the Aluminium block (T7_7075)..I had to cut a rectangle block 180x120x50mm down 39mm and leave an island of 38mm radius in the middle, because of the length I used a 8mm Ballnose cutter that was 50mm long, I was able to machine 1.2mm at 650mm/Min (total machining time around 4.5Hrs) this was using the modified router

I also for fun machine some Corian 120mmx120mm 5mm depth at 0.2mm overlap in both x and Y direction to cut a face, I decided that 2mm per depth pass was also a good option.... And 9Hrs 27mins Later it looked not better than when I tried the same file with a 3mm Ball nose cutter, 15% overlap, machined at 30deg in one pass (total time 0Hrs 59Mins) this was using the factory fitted VFD spindle it's water cooled.

I must admitt that I didn't change the bearings, and now it's under load I do see a few sparks from the brushes so should of probally taken my own advice..

I think I am going to have to upgrade the housing from timber to Aluminium, -Reason being when I machined the Alluminium I did notic a lot of chatterin the end mill. So I can only guess It came from the felx in the housing.

Ask John from keling even if you dont intend to buy from him and give him details on the present drivers , he might be able to suggest the best for you, also go onto the Gecko forum.....lot of experienced folks around there and they will certainly help you out.

Folks here in India do make a lot of money in Vinyl cutting for name plates and business hoardings.

I am also in the process of building a machine on with ball screws and other with racks so I am in the process of getting to know much!

good luck machining!

RGDS
Irfan

I DIY machine needs Photos.... Do you have any Photo? maybe you can start a thread with you build???

Ok I have an update on the steppers the details are as follows

Quote"...The best possible price I can give you on our MSTP88N for 2-off quantity is AUD$218 per motor [excluding GST (10%) and delivery]... Availibility: 8-12 working days. Unquote"

Question is now is this a good price and the 8-12 days is based on the time they clear customs...(to date the boat has not arrived YET!!) ... THe guys are saying 2-3weeks from payment to my door???

Ok I have an update on the steppers the details are as follows

Quote"...The best possible price I can give you on our MSTP88N for 2-off quantity is AUD$218 per motor [excluding GST (10%) and delivery]... Availibility: 8-12 working days. Unquote"

Question is now is this a good price and the 8-12 days is based on the time they clear customs...(to date the boat has not arrived YET!!) ... THe guys are saying 2-3weeks from payment to my door???


Well salty,

I got three 640 Oz motors @169 USD a deal and got it in a flat rate boxes @37USD per box and there was no custom duty on those boxes asteh motors cost less then 100 (2 in a box) for each box. U also can get that way and save on lot of $$, all bipolar motors.

And most Impressive was that I got them in 5 dayz flat!

what else would you want! and there is good service from John from Keling cnc. I am only a satisfied customer and no marketing guy for Keling. I liked teh way John responded so I am suggesting him to you too.

my cnc m/c link http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44202

Enjoy
Irfan

Well since I was having so much trouble with speed and Feed, I have made a SPEED and FEED test pattern.

it is designed to work in 500x500x12mm and uses a 8mm end mill.
the Max depth Calculator has a Feed Rate of 900mm/min (35"/min) and starts at -1mm each cut is increased in depth a further 1mm.
The next portion of the test calculates the max SPEED at -12mm Depth. it is increased from 1000mm/min to 2100mm/min in 100mm/min incruments.

Hopefuly someone else might find it usefull

I got three 640 Oz motors @169 USD a deal and got it in a flat rate boxes @37USD per box and there was no custom duty on those boxes ..............And most Impressive was that I got them in 5 dayz flat!

Enjoy
Irfan

Irfan Do you have any contact details for the guys you bought your steppers from???

Irfan Do you have any contact details for the guys you bought your steppers from???

Hi Salty,

The contact is http://www.kelinginc.net/

http://www.kelinginc.net/contactus.html

Sales: sale@Kelinginc.net

Support: Support@kelinginc.net

Tel: 630-254-8655
Fax: 847-850-0391

Good luck Salty

Well My steppers Have Been Posted - THought they would be here today BUGGER!!! Just means I get em 2Morrow

Will you you guys know how I go.. The guys have been really help full, they even ordered a set express to ensure I had em Soon as possible

Hi Salty

Any Updates on ur new stepper retrofit?

Irfan

I have been working hard on my other hobby "LUCAS MILLING", I even have me a web page http://www.043turning.com.au

the steppers arrived as expected.. I was so worried that the mounting holes would be out that I set so much time to checking and asking and checking and asking, that I forgot to find out about the diameter of the stepper...
turns out the old motor is 12.7mm with 6mm Key-way and the new motor is 10mm with 6mm Key so I have to get a brass sleeve tuned up this I am still waiting for, (mainly cause I keep giving my mate extra work that is apparently more important - well SWMBO keeps telling me it is!!!)

Hello HELP NEEDED!!

I have a CW250 – 2 Phase Micro stepping Stepper Motor Driver and two wheel encoder modules (works with (5v) one left and the other right. The modules have 3 cables the red (+) the black (-) and the white (S). Can anyone tell me how to connect these together?

Thanks
Victor

please reply to victor@nazcageotech.com

I can send you a wire diagram. What is your email?

I can send you a wire diagram. What is your email?

victor@nazcageotech.com
Thanks

chineeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese stuff bought mine in (NFLD and so did a guy in NS Can.) from a Canadian dealer called www.intelicam.ca..................boy what a mistake 14 months later we are talking with a real time certified engineer in 45 min. we found out just how much the former ceo and his partner of cam tech knows about the product he now sells the machines never had a chance from leveling / screws / wireing/ programming
this guy even went so far as to replace one of the machines with a worse then the first one delivered now we have 3 37000$ paper weights
but again they can be re fitted for aprox 3600$ each to a level where we can start the table leveling process after that with tool changer software we can began to attack atc issues what a waste of human time energy and money is there any way we can let the world at large know about this chineeeeeeeeeeeese mouse trap