Gentlemen,

I got the 500 watt Sanyo Denke motor working very nicely this afternoon. After discussing it with Vladimir last night on the phone, he pressed me to check the phasing again with the encoder disconnected like the Rutex.com R9x setup and tune document that has a link in the R992H.pdf.

If I had followed his detailed instructions precisely, I would have had better success the other two times I set out to phase the commutator. His documentation is very good.

I did learn another thing today, however. On an ordinary three phase motor you can change the direction by switching any two wires of the three phase hook up. In a brushless motor you switch the encoder wires (switch the A's for the B's) to change the direction. Switching the motor power wires does not work. It took me too long to figure this out.

So...I would say that anyone that is interested in a real bargain brushless motor...go for it! I will try the 1000 watt one on Friday after I receive my braking resistors from Digi-key. It must have them to obsorb the BEMF the motor generates when the motor is stopped.

I'm sorry for the delay and any confusion I may have caused. As I said, my experience with brushless motors is limited. I'm glad that Vladimir is so knowledgable about motors.

On the bright side, I can and will report exactly how to hook up these motors so that they come up and run for you the first time.

These instructions are for the R992H. The info should be directly transferrable to the R2030's that I expect to have on hand around the first week of November.

Motor power wires:

Signal name:

X (phase 1) Red
Y (phase 2) Blue
Z (phase 3) White

Commutator:

S1 Blue with black stripe
S2 Red with black stripe
S3 Green with black stripe

Encoder wires:

Channel A: Blue

Channel A/: Brown

Channel B: Purple

Channel B/: Green

The quick tune I did gave me these PID values:

kp 376
ki 15
kd 244

The kpid values will probably not transfer over. Each machine will have its own pid values.


Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

That's really good news Tom. I bought 6 of the 1000W motors and I hope that when you get yours, everything will work okay. I look forward to your testing. I am planing to order the new Rutex drive for my " beast of the beast" router.

Time for a shopping spree! :D

Man style!

I'm deeply impressed and gratefull for all the effort and steady stream of communication that has gone into figuring out these motors! Thank you to all of you who shared your experimental results.

And a BIG thank-you to Rutex!

-D

Time for a shopping spree! :D

Man style!

Much to my wife's disappointment, my motors will be delivered today. :)

I am thinking of getting some of these motors and was wondering what the encoder resolution is. Can anyone help.

2000cpr.

Darek

where did you buy the motors?

motors at www.surpluscenter.com

I have a few coming too. You can't go wrong at 40.00. The rutex forum sure became active when these motors were found. :)

$40 per motor? What`s wrong with these motors? :)

You need $200 drives to run them.

considering the motors new retail at 1295.00 I would consider a 200.00 dollar drive not to much of an inconvienieance! :D


:cheers:

considering the motors new retail at 1295.00 I would consider a 200.00 dollar drive not to much of an inconvienieance! :D


:cheers:


:cheers: I`m in...
Thanks everyone!


EDIT: Google snapshot of SurplusCenter.Com dated 10.03.2005 shows 372 Sanyo Denki 1000w P5 motors in stock. 10 days later number is down to 263 :)
Ehem.. Where`s my credit card...
.

No sure I Am looking at the right motors? The motors are AC and the Rutex drives mentioned are DC. Once again I am confused.

Ok, I searched and found the other thread that the Rutex DC drive will run these AC servos. Very interesting.......

Hi,
I am new here. I also plan to buy that surplus motor 400 watt Denki P5 after reading that rutex driver will work with this kind of motor. Is this size of motor good enough to retrofit knee mill to CNC, if anyone of you have experience with this size of motor, let me know.

... I also plan to buy that surplus motor 400 watt Denki P5 after reading that rutex driver will work with this kind of motor. Is this size of motor good enough to retrofit knee mill to CNC...

This motor is rated (according to the website) at 3.6N-m stall torque or 510oz-in. With gearing down, it should be able to move a knee mill pretty well, but maybe slower than you expect if you gear it down. Also keep in mind these motors are 2000 line encoders, meaning (from what I understand) 8000 pulses per revolution. So to get top RPM out of them

However, why not order the 1kw motor? It runs off of the same Rutex amplifier, and is only $2 more! ($39.95 vs. $37.95). And it has a stall torque rating of 8.8N-m (1250 oz-in), so will have more power available when you need it. Unless space is an issue, I'd go with the larger servos.


Anyone else have any reason not to go with the larger servos?

At the Burdon Surplus Center in Nebraska, they are selling brand new Sanyo Denke motors. If you do a search on Sanyo the whole list will display.

They may be listed as AC motors but DC brushless and Ac are sometimes the same. In this case they are.

In my opinion, It is a deal that one can not pass up if he is ever thinking of building a cnc machine.

The motor, drive, encoder, and braking resistors together are far less than I pay for brush motors with encoders of smaller size (not including the drives).

With the 2030 drives I believe you will be able to set the step multiplier to any whole number you want to, so the resolution range is wide. The step multiplier is set during tuning with the windows program, no dip switches.



Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

What size of these servos would I use on a 2x3' gantry? Would the 100w be fine?
3-400 watt better?

Thanks

you know what they say???

BIGGER is better! :D

Especially when the price is basically the same.

True enough :)

I ordered the 3 of the 400w model, the 1000w looks tempting, but ... It looks like a big drive to be hanging off this size gantry. Hopefully this will get my gantry project in motion :)

What power supply are folks using to power Rutex stuff?

Will the Rutex drive run these under TurboCNC as well as Mach3? anyone?

thanks

Will the Rutex drive run these under TurboCNC as well as Mach3? anyone?

thanks

It'll work with both, as long as you're PC can output steps fast enough.

Motor Dimensions ...:banana:

I'm a bit concerned that the peak currents for the 1K motor are more than the 20 amp Rutex brushless board will handle. Are there plans to do a 40 Amp board also, like the brushed DC ones?

Can someone show the link again for the torque rating and electrical specs. on these motors? I can't seem to find it.
They sure look small motors for the wattage rating.
Al.

For Rutexus:
Tom,
Were you able to connect the 1000w motor to the drive yet? Would like to know if there are any issues (you mentionned a braking resistor, what's the value?)

I have 220v 3 phase in my building. I did not realize there was 100v 3 phase service available. Or am I just an uninformed newbie and you actually use 220v 3 phase to feed these motors?

Here is something I found, it has a bunch of torque curves and various dimentions,

The other dimentions posted are not quite right according to the other dimentions, and theres only one of a p5 servo.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005091312550333&item=10-2210

is this what your looking for Al?

The motor is just a tad smaller than the brush servo motors out of a 1994 HAAS vf-2. I don't think they are small heck they weigh 17lbs each.

edit: sorry jon beat me too it.
nevermind! (nuts)

I have 220v 3 phase in my building. I did not realize there was 100v 3 phase service available. Or am I just an uninformed newbie and you actually use 220v 3 phase to feed these motors?

You supply the drives up to 100V DC. The drives turn it into the 3phase the motors need.

I'm a bit concerned that the peak currents for the 1K motor are more than the 20 amp Rutex brushless board will handle. Are there plans to do a 40 Amp board also, like the brushed DC ones?

The R2030 20A rating is continuous. The peak rating is higher.

-my drawings were incorrect will re-draw them according to my motor. the dimentions I got off the website are wrong-
Enjoy:)
Jon

Did anyone definitively identify the pole count of these motors? If one of the commutation pulse transitions could be counted for one rev of the motor, x2 is the pole count. Also is there a marker pulse on the encoder? as the first post indicated only A & B and complements
Al.

The pole count of the Sanyo motors is 4, they are 120 degree motors. This is a fact.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Gentlemen,

I plan to put .5 ohm resistors in each leg of the 1000 watt Sanyo motors. I ordered 6 1 ohm 50 watt resistors to do the job. If I had a source for .5 ohm resistors, I would have ordered them. I believe these motors need these braking resistors to be used with the R992 and R2030 drives.

I haven't received my resistors yet, and have not hooked up the 1000 watt motor yet.

I hope to get to it this week, but I will be off a couple of days this week and away from home over next week end.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

retexus: if you need those resistors let me know, my local guy carries them and said he would ship too. shoot me a pm if you are looking for anything like that or are still looking for those .5 ohm resistors.

is there a part # for those resistors so we can order them online, I ordered the 400w motors, so I'll have to see if they have the brake.

Thanks

I am always interested in new sources of components so that I can help others find the parts they need.


Please share with us the info needed to contact your source of .5 ohm resistors.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

i dont own the shop and they are basically a local electronics surplus yard with a buttload of ecg stuff, anyway here is the stuff you will need to know.

the name of the place is pembleton electronics, it is in ft wayne in
the phone number is 260-484-1812
ask for ross

if he says they wont ship or gives you any crap about something pm me here if you find they have something you need and they get nasty with you.

Tom, do all the different size motors need the resistors, or just the 1000W? If all, do they all need the same size resistors?

Thanks, H20 for the resistor info.

I believe only the 1000 watt motors need the braking resistors.

Tom

Where are the "drives" or "encoders" necessary to run these? I would love to upgrade to something like these. I saw someone mention $200, but was that for something like a Gecko, or an encoder that goes on the motor? I would like to get the 1000W motor, but what oz/in does that equate too? I guess they can just do much higher RPM and still have torque? Thanks in advance!

I got one of my motors here up at college today. One thing I noticed was that the motor wont spin, i am assuming that the brake is on unless power is applied to it, but I also noticed that there is a slight amount of play when I try to rotate the shaft, its like 1/2 a degree at most but it is there. Is that common or is something wrong with it?
What wires are the brake wires?

let me know,
Jon

The brake is on until 24V is applied. I got the 300w without brake, and they turn smoothly. I think the play you feel is the brake.

William, the encoders are built in. You need either the Rutex R992H or R2030. www.rutex.com

What wires are the brake wires?
Jon

I don't have a motor but the spec sheet says .33a at 24v so you should have a pair that have ~72ohms across them.
All the rest will be either very low ohm (Stator) or much higher (encoder).
Al.

Yes, I belive the brake is what I feel too. The brake is only used to slow or stop the motor and not to hold it in place right? becuase if it was to hold it in place, there wouldnt be play.

btw, the drawing I posted earlier is way off, I went by dimentions on a website and they are way off.

The brake is only used to slow or stop the motor and not to hold it in place right?

Actually its the reverse, brakes are traditionally fitted to servo's to hold position when dis-engaged. The servo action should always be used for slowing/stopping.
They are often used where the axis will back feed a ballscrew or other over-hanging load such as a heavy Z axis mechanism.
Al.

Are ther open-source servo drives that are capable of pushing these large servo motors? I have seen plenty of diy Stepper drives on this site, but servo drives of this caliber seem scant. Does nobody know how to build one?

:cool:

I found the wires running 72 ohms and will find a source of 24v soon enough to check it out. These wires are comming out of the same cable as the 3 phase wires are comming out of along with what appears to be a ground.

Jon

here is a spec sheet miljnor gave me... he has been hiding it;)

Jon

no hidding it was in the original thread! :D

:cheers:

does anyone know does this servo communicate pwm or ttl?

does anyone know does this servo communicate pwm or ttl?

When used with a Rutex brushless servo drive, it will accept TTL step/direction signals.

The servo itself doesn't really "communicate" with anything. It's the servo drive that reads the encoder and decides what how much power to send the motor and at what phase. The servo drive is also the component that communicates (via step and direction pulses) with the computer. Rutex drives can also use an SPI interface (sort of like a serial connection), which is much faster and cleaner than step and direction.

However, you can't use the SPI interface yet -Rutex has not released the specification yet.

Even if they release the specification I don't know of any software the currently uses spi except their own tuning software.

Tom as soon as you get some test results postthem Quick! :eek:

I need to know!

Mike

miljnor: well what i had in mind was more of a proof of concept that would probably never work and i was more curious about it's communication than anything else. as for tuning software, why not just use a scope, the guy i work with that tunes my servo's uses a scope and he is very good with them.

as for the communication part, well hopefully you will find this a bit humerous. a while back i did a project (totally pc based) that used these little suckers http://www.phidgets.com/ they worked amazingly well and you can even shoot out ttl but thier main way of communication with servo's is pwm. I know there is a night and day difference between the servo's there and the ones that were being talked about here, but heck if i didn't ask and there was some way to get the two to talk to each other then i wouldn't be asking the correct questions would i. anyway hopefully someone will figure out a nice open source board layout or something for these bad boys.

The brake is on until you apply 24 volts to the two brake wires. The tiny bit of movement is what is allowed by the brake. It is not used to slow the motor, only keep in in position when the motor is not being driven. I don't know how one would co-ordinate its use with a typical cnc machine, unless you were concerned that the motor might drift when the machine is turned off at the end of the day.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

H2o thats a cool little gadget will have to check into it. I think EMC could probably be modified to work with this. Don't know how easy it would be but Hey whats one more hobby to add for my final divorce! ;)

Tom
How do you disable the brakes (is there a way to remove them without destroying the motor?)
What's the lead time on the 2030 drive?
Have you tested the 1000W motor yet?
Thanks

You are probabally better off to a constant supply 24vdc. In one case I just wound a secondary on the power supply toroid with a bridge and small electrolytic. the wire gauge can be small as it is less than 1amp load. This way the brake picks up whenever the power is on to the DC supply.
Al.

So, say that these AC servos work with the rutex driver. Isn't the next step to design a power supply? Their is lot of info on making a DC power supply, but what about an AC supply.
It appears that even with inexpensive AC servo and rutex drivers, it is still more then a gecko and a say, Ametec DC servo. ? What will a AC supply cost to make? Are these AC servo worth and extra $50-$75 per axis?

Comments

P

You don't need AC, you use a DC supply to the Rutex. The Rutex is $85 more than a Gecko. The AC servo is $40, including a 2000 count encoder. Can you get a comparable DC servo with encoder for $125? I haven't seen any? I was planning on using Gecko 202 with Vexta 400 oz-in steppers on my next router. The AC servos and Rutex are cheaper.

Thanks to everyone for all the great info on these motors. I had been thinking steppers, because a servo system seemed way out of my budget. Thanks to all the encouraging info here I just put my order in for some 1000w. Only 41 left!!!
Get them while you still can...

I can't wait to see some of the great machines that will be made with these...

So, yep ac servo are ordered. Any pointers on the power supply?
What size of toroid for 4 servo setup, cap size, and rectifier size?

Thanks

Can the encoders be used for something else, the $29 motor sound interesting for doing it. Thanks


Pablo

The motors are worthless without the encoders, the motors are worth much more than that, expecially at the quanity. I advize you not do that.

Jon

I hate when this happens, the large motors are 17lbs each and maximum shipping allowed by USPS to Argentina is 44lbs...

What size of fast router for cutting wood can be nicely done with the 400w ones? I want to take advantage of the deal but I have the 44lbs limit :(

Thanks

for a router, the 300w motors are great plenty...

I ordered a few more motors, 3 300w and 1 more 400w(total of 4)

Here is updated IGES and SLDPRT files of my motor that I measured.

Jon

Wow, they're down to 20 motors left, down from 30 motors just over an hour ago! All those of you who were lurking and learning about the motor, are you now jumping on the chance at the last minute?

I bought 6 of the 1kw's and they arrived very well packed, in the original unopened boxes, very obviously genuine Sanyo Denki packaging. The writing printed on the inside of the box is in Japanese.

I am also excited to see what people will do with their motors! Two of my motors will end up on my router project:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11786

Here's a close-up of the wires coming out of the motor:

I know a lot of us are banking on the rutex drives working properly with these motors. We might see a bunch of these back on Ebay if they don't. Any more updates/results with rutex drives?

Well looks like the great motor goldrush of 2005 is basically over (some of the lower wattage motors are still left).

I have a feeling there will be a lot of interesting discussion over the next weeks/months about using these motors. Also I have a feeling that Rutex might want to stock a few extra 2030s!

I even ordered one of the 1 kW motors yesterday; maybe I'll use it as a spindle motor; maybe I just didn't want to be left out of the fun!

Well looks like the great motor goldrush of 2005 is basically over (some of the lower wattage motors are still left)....I even ordered one of the 1 kW motors yesterday; maybe I'll use it as a spindle motor; maybe I just didn't want to be left out of the fun!

Yup, me too. Don't know why, as I don't even really need them. I guess it was just to good to pass up! Now for the power supply.... :)

Evodyne

You may have noticed, the combined Sanyo-Denki supply and amplifier for one 1Kw motor is rated at 2.5Kw. :eek:
Al.

You may have noticed, the combined Sanyo-Denki supply and amplifier for one 1Kw motor is rated at 2.5Kw. :eek:
Al.

Al, where did you see that?

Gentlemen,

I'm away until Monday evening. I did not get time to try the 1000 watt motor, but Vladimir said a similar motor he was aware of worked fine with the R992H. I'm confident they will work too-enough that I ordered 10 1000 watt motors myself. I warned him about the expected orders. He said he still has some R992H's to sell, and that there was a slight delay (caused by him being so busy programming some of the windows support programs for his plasma control) on the motors arriving by the first week of November as scheduled, but that they will be out real soon.

Tom Eldredge

Al, where did you see that?

PDF attached
Al.

I have a thought regarding braking resistors for the Rutex R2030 drives and the Sanyo 1000W motors. How about putting a diode in parallel with the resistor in the direction that the current will bypass the brake resistor in normal mode and then block the current when we have back EMF (Similar to the body diodes of the MOSFETs in the H-bridge)? This way we only have the voltage drop over the diode under normal conditions and the resistor is doing its thing for back EMF. It should give us less power dissipation in the resistor as well. The diode needs to be rated for at least 20A continuously. Any problems with this approach?

Thanks,
Mats

Gee, I wonder if SurplusCenter will be kind enough to offer those drives for, I don't know, $50.00 or so? Maybe if we ask real nice?? (...reality sets back in...) Um, probably not. :frown:

Evodyne

Would these work? http://www.surplussales.com/ServoAmps/ServoAmps.html

Would these work? http://www.surplussales.com/ServoAmps/ServoAmps.html

Sure looks promising. $275 each, but no need to build a power supply since they take AC power.

To the best of my memory the PZ series amps do not have step/dir inputs.

Darek

that and they put out 200v.

200V is the input. Not sure what the output is.

I am very new here but I work with high resolution control systems. So here goes. The Sanyo motor many of you have purchased is a very good motor. To help you understand it better there are two links that will help you
This link will explain the wire color code from the motor leads:
http://www.copleycontrols.com/motion/downloads/pdf/Xenus_to_SANYO-DENKI-P3&P5-Series.pdf

Next to help you understand why you need to use a sinusoidal commutation drive go to the following link start reading on page 16 and remember a linear motor and the rotary sanyo P5 drive almost identically.
http://www.aerotech.com/products/PDF/LMAppGuide.pdf

Here is what I feel is a good comparison, if you fill your car up with half gas and half diesel fuel it will chug, buck and jerk but it will run. When you drive the P5 with a Trapezoidal drive it will jitter, cog, get hot and not put out much power. Don't be mislead we tried for several months to drive these motors with a Trapezoidal drive and many times we thought we had worked through all the problems but some small thing would change like, load, rpm, temperature etc and the problems would start all over again.

I have one question who makes a Sinusoidal Commutated drive that accepts step and direction input for about $300 or less. The one we use is from Bearing Engineers http://www.bearingengineers.com/pdf/avs.pdf it is the AVS 1700 works great but the cost is about $650

I have one question who makes a Sinusoidal Commutated drive that accepts step and direction input for about $300 or less. The one we use is from Bearing Engineers http://www.bearingengineers.com/pdf/avs.pdf it is the AVS 1700 works great but the cost is about $650

If I understand correctly, sinusoidal commutation is done by monitoring both the hall sensors and an encoder. The surpluscenter sanyo's should have both.

Having read some application notes by microchip it seems that it is fairly easy to build a PIC or dsPIC based BLDC trapezoidal controller.

Now - would a dsPIC be fast enough to also do sinusoidal commutation ?
for the device described in the app. notes (dsPIC30F2010) max clock is 40MHz which means instructions are executed at 10 MHz

If we have a 2000cpr motor running at 3000rpm (50rev/s) that would generate ecoder pulses at 100kHz (or maybe 2 or 400 kHz) ? that should still be measurable with the dsPIC running at 10 MHz

so, maybe it would not be that hard to build a dsPIC based sinusoidally commutationg BLDC drive....

comments ?!

I haven't bought any motors yet but if I do I'd like to develop something like this.

Andy

Ps. I'm not sure step/dir from a pc parallell port is such a good idea. You will allways be limited by the fairly low max output frequency...

Ps. I'm not sure step/dir from a pc parallell port is such a good idea. You will allways be limited by the fairly low max output frequency...

In a few months the Gecko G100 and Mach4 will be able to output 4,000,000 steps/second without using the parallel port.

I've been noodling around with building a PID controller to drive some trapezoidal BLDC amplifiers I got off of eBay; with all this talk I think I'll try to expand my little circuit into a full controller. Should keep me amused for a while (don't hold your breath waiting for success, but if I do get something working someday I'll post about it). So far I'm just researching chips and so forth on the internet, which is pretty fun!

I have a feeling that some controllers (like the Rutex ones) will work acceptably well with these motors, but we need to hear from somebody who put them into a machine to know for sure.

> I haven't bought any motors yet

Better hurry; the 1 kW are gone, only 29 of the 400w left, and only 18 of the brakeless 300w. I expect we'll see a lot of them on ebay in the coming months though.

We run in Quad so 2K is reading as 8K per rev. Yes a parallel port is for printers, if you want much speed, with high line counts it won't work. Any system is only as good as the weak link. You can and we do run the rotary encoder to get close and then use a 5um linear for final position. This works better than a very expensive ball screw and the rolled screw we use with this setup is about $150 per foot of travel.

In a few months the Gecko G100 and Mach4 will be able to output 4,000,000 steps/second without using the parallel port.

Yes, but that moves the servo position control loop into dedicated hardware and I will not be able to control, adjust or monitor the following error on my pc.

I'm thinking I want an EMC controlled system where most of the intelligence is in the PC.
Jon Elson has developed hardware and EMC compatible software which uses the parallell port in EPP mode which should be fast enough.

I'm currently developing a sinusoidal drive for those surplus servos. If I succeed you will know about it :)

Cool! If I fail to get mine to work (quite likely since I have no clue what I'm doing), maybe I can just buy yours!

Good luck! Keep us posted!

Jon Elson has developed hardware and EMC compatible software which uses the parallell port in EPP mode which should be fast enough.

Jon doesn't make drives for these motors. If you use the Rutex drives, the loop is closed in the Rutex. I don't see how EMC can close it with available hardware?

Jon doesn't make drives for these motors. If you use the Rutex drives, the loop is closed in the Rutex. I don't see how EMC can close it with available hardware?

I mean that using the EPP, as pico-systems does, seems like a cost-effective way of motor control on a pc. Yes it requires hardware to count the encoder pulses and other hardware to drive the servos.

Can you tell me if the Rutex drive is trapezoidal phase or sinewave phase ?
These motors are sold as 'ac' and someone here said the performance is less than great with a trapezoidal drive... so I'm thinking I need a sinewave drive.

These motors are sold as 'ac' and someone here said the performance is less than great with a trapezoidal drive... so I'm thinking I need a sinewave drive.

Although these motors look like a good deal, price-wise. I backed out from buying at the last minute, what detered me was the the issues of only 4 pole, I am guessing that anything but sinusoidal drive is going to cause a rough low speed issue if run by any other method.
The other thing is the top speed issue, 3000 ~4500 tops. I have Aerotech DC motors that run up to 5 or 6K. So I would normally expect at least 6k from a AC servo.
Also I have run 6 pole and 8 pole motors with passable low speed with trapezoidal drive, not as good as DC however.
It will be interesting to follow the progress.
Al.

Can you tell me if the Rutex drive is trapezoidal phase or sinewave phase ?
.
Any comment?

This is not a endorsement of there product but the Logosol LS-131-2010 http://www.logosolinc.com/products/ls-131.htm
This drive works very well with the Sanyo motors, it's a nice drive very small and lots of power (sinusoidal). So easy to hook up 3 or 4 axis just plug in the network cables. Comes with free software (LCDN) which will let you get up and running as fast as you can hook up the servo motor leads. The one big rough point is IT WILL NOT ACCEPT STEP AND DIRECTION INPUT. If anyone can find a clone to this one that will accept step and direction input please let me know.

This is not a endorsement of there product but the Logosol LS-131-2010 http://www.logosolinc.com/products/ls-131.htm
This drive works very well with the Sanyo motors, it's a nice drive very small and lots of power (sinusoidal). So easy to hook up 3 or 4 axis just plug in the network cables. Comes with free software (LCDN) which will let you get up and running as fast as you can hook up the servo motor leads. The one big rough point is IT WILL NOT ACCEPT STEP AND DIRECTION INPUT. If anyone can find a clone to this one that will accept step and direction input please let me know.

I guess the question anyone who bought these motors would have is "What do these drives cost?" Can you throw out a ballpark value?

Evodyne

Here's a page for a model with step/dir input and a price:

http://clickautomation.com/products/index.php?func=show&pid=510&cid=172

Edited: oops, reading the specs that model is trapezoidal.

Can you tell me if the Rutex drive is trapezoidal phase or sinewave phase ?

For what its worth the "Run Test Profile" section of Rutex's R2000 tuning software identifies all three methods (Rectangular, Trapezoidal, and Sinusoidal; see the attached link). But again, its in the testing section, not the setup area and its referred to as "motion" not commutation. It may just be referring to parameters/configuration the motor expects to see, not what the drive is actually providing.

Yeah, I think you're right -- the screenshot is from configuring an R2020 which is for brushed motors.... and brush motors commutate themselves :-)

I would guess that setting is for the path the motors go through during a test run, to see how the PID algorithm responds to different types of movement.

Where's Rutexus? It seems they would be able to give an answer to this simple question:

Can Rutex 2030 drives do sinusoidal commutation?

Rutexus, if you're out there, give us a shout back and let us know. Quite a few of us bought motors hoping to buy 2030s to run them...

-D

Gentlemen,

I'm away until Monday evening. I did not get time to try the 1000 watt motor, but Vladimir said a similar motor he was aware of worked fine with the R992H. I'm confident they will work too-enough that I ordered 10 1000 watt motors myself. I warned him about the expected orders. He said he still has some R992H's to sell, and that there was a slight delay (caused by him being so busy programming some of the windows support programs for his plasma control) on the motors arriving by the first week of November as scheduled, but that they will be out real soon.

Tom Eldredge


^^^^^
away till monday,
Think about it, thers like 700 of these motors out there, I think like 500+ counting on these drives at least.... I am pretty sure thats the numbers, I think there were like 300-400 1000w, 100 400w, 2 sets of 100 300w then some 100s that not many people bought.

I believe the rutex drives are trapazoidal in nature.

I guess the question anyone who bought these motors would have is "What do these drives cost?" Can you throw out a ballpark value?

Evodyne

For the surplus Sanyo Motors about $650 is the least expensive that I know of and it would be marginal on power for the 1KW motor. It's difficult because all the major manfactures want to sell the complete package (powersupply, controller, amp, cables, ect). They spend a lot of R&D money on development and some of that money is used to design in dependencies (buy my package or it may not work very good). I have very limited information on the 2030 drive but if you put the 1KW Sanyo motors to work they will want lots of amps, I think the drive will need lots of cooling and when I looked at the 2030 I didn't see much cooling in place. (Don't take this as more than there are lots of questions to be answered.) At work I use brushless servo motors, at home I use steppers. My accuracy at home is just as good, it just takes me longer to get there. I will post a link here, I teach a class and it is required reading for my students(Note this is not an endorsement of any product).
http://www.tormach.com/document_library/Personal%20CNC%20Design.pdf
I will say this the boys at Tormach did there homework.......

I am guessing that anything but sinusoidal drive is going to cause a rough low speed issue if run by any other method.
Al.

I plan on using these on a router, and they'll be running at full speed most of the time. Would this then be less of an issue? And would it affect acceleration, or will the accel be fast enough to not have a problem? In the first post Tom said he had them working nicely with the R992H, but didn't elaborate. Guess we need more info from him when he returns.

Oops. You're right, he did say he'd be gone until Monday. I'll be patient then.

I should add that while we're all hoping to get our motors running with Rutex and are kind of counting on them for help, I think they are going above and beyond by paying so much attention to their customers' interests and spending their time to actually purchase and test the motors for us.

I think they are going above and beyond by paying so much attention to their customers' interests and spending their time to actually purchase and test the motors for us.

They DO have the potential to make a LOT of money selling drives for these motors. ;)

Would these work ? --> http://www.simpleservo.com/Drives/SS100SS200.html

PDF specs: http://www.simpleservo.com/images/PDF/Servo/ss1-2pg4.pdf


EDIT. Also check out ParkerHannifin SLVD drives: http://www.compumotor.com/home_press.htm

That SimpleServo device looks pretty nifty. Appears to be about $600:

http://www.123servos.com/Pricing/SimpleServoPrices.html

On a different subject, I see that a lot of servo drives run off the "mains" and do not have huge transformers in them; I guess if they are grounded properly this must be an OK thing to do. It would obviously be attractive if one did not have to purchase a power supply. Such a device running off the normal AC line would have a bus voltage of about 170 volts. I'm thinking that these 100v motors could probably operate off of amplifiers like this, as long as the speed and current is kept under control. Anybody agree or disagree?

On a different subject, I see that a lot of servo drives run off the "mains" and do not have huge transformers in them; I guess if they are grounded properly this must be an OK thing to do. It would obviously be attractive if one did not have to purchase a power supply. Such a device running off the normal AC line would have a bus voltage of about 170 volts. I'm thinking that these 100v motors could probably operate off of amplifiers like this, as long as the speed and current is kept under control. Anybody agree or disagree?

170 VDC for the servo drives sounds about right.
The servos are 100VAC, meaning 100Vrms or about 140 V amplitude (280V peak to peak).
Since usually they are driven with a H-bridge that can direct current both ways through the windings it is enough to have the DC voltage at about half of the peak to peak value. some margin is good for switching losses etc. so 170-180V is real good.
(where I live we have 230VAC and that just rectified would be a bit overkill...)

as I understand it with any higher voltage than that you will just create exessive heating of the switching transistors...

andy

Such a device running off the normal AC line would have a bus voltage of about 170 volts. I'm thinking that these 100v motors could probably operate off of amplifiers like this, as long as the speed and current is kept under control. Anybody agree or disagree?

Most of these are isolated from the incoming AC by means of a switching supply, Often transformerless.
The DC buss on some of the AMC I use of this type have a Buss voltage of around 160vdc.
They are used to control motors such as ElectroCraft etc that have a operating voltage of around 80vdc.
Excess Current is usually the enemy of servo's, the mean current is usually taken care of by the PWM switching, as most servo amps have a method of controlling maximum current by a current limit control.
Al.

I have looked at 100W P5 specs and it says that the voltage constant is 14.6 mV/rpm. So at 3000 rpm without load it would need only 0.0146*3000 = 43.8 VAC voltage. Under 3x overload it would take 43.8VAC+3ohm*8.9Amps = 70.5VAC.

Am I correct?

For what it's worth, Sanyo specifies the drive method for the 100W motor to be "Rectangular wave" (See page two in the attached data sheet).

I think the specification you are looking at is the output of the encoder. To drive a AC servo motor with a square wave would be very interesting. The drawing that is posted is helpful but it is a revB for this motor from 1995, it is not unusual for a company to issue revs every year or two. Anyone out there got a more current drawing and spec sheet for this motor. Also I read that you can change the rotation by changing the A and B encoder wires. I don't think so. On the motors I have worked with it takes a 6 wire swap or more. 2 Hall wires switch, 2 Motor power wires switch and the encoder A and B switch. I can't tell you which ones because there is no uniform code as to how to define the motor phases and the Hall sensor phases. If you want to wire up a motor the most simple case you can have is 10 wires (3 halls - 3 motor power - 2 encoder - 1 5volt+ and 1 5volt ground) and they all have to be right or it won't run. You don't have to use the encoders inverted channels, they are used to make interference problems go away. No one can tell what terminals the wire colors go to unless you know the servo amp to be used. One manfactures V Channel is Channel U to the next Mfg. and on and on we go and when you get them running just right with a Trapezoidal amp you may find position errors start to creep in sometimes big sometimes small and sometimes they even COG and break a lot of expensive things. I do have one application where a Trap amp is use on a 3 phase AC motor. But in this application the motor is used as a velocity motor and not for position. Anyone looking to make a the Sanyo a spindle motor could look at a low cost Trapazoidal amp.

there is some pdfs here
http://automation.lonne.se/main.php?sprakID=5&menyID=200&PHPSESSID=23810e52bd878455a9d91f2f4806794e
hope this helps some one

posted by m_j01
Sanyo Motor Drive Method
For what it's worth, Sanyo specifies the drive method for the 100W motor to be "Rectangular wave" (See page two in the attached data sheet).

posted by rpm mill
I think the specification you are looking at is the output of the encoder. To drive a AC servo motor with a square wave would be very interesting.

I personaly don't think they are talking about the encoder. 1. Because as far as I know all encoders give a digital output (at least for the current modern ones) so why list it since it is Identified in the document. 2. Its listed under the drive requirement.

I am no expert but the diffenence between an AC brushless and DC brushless involves how you drive it. I beleive that DC motor controlers Drive just 2 poles at any one time and AC drives drive more like a conventional inductive motor, by giving all three phases to the motor. But I believe you can run either motor in either fasion, but one runs better at high speed (sinusoidal) and one runs better at lowspeed (trapazoidal)

Michael t.

posetd by Al_The_Man in "AC servo motor vs DC servo motor post"
Actually when running, the DC brush-less exhibits cogging at low speed due to the resolution of the commutation whereas a good quality DC brushed with skewed rotor is smooth down to zero (when running).
The AC sinusoidal motor which is constructed identical to the DC brush-less has the smoothness of a DC brushed.
This is why if you intend using a DC brush-less motor without gearing at very low speeds, you will see a step like pattern of rotation.
The advantage, apart from less maintenance, of a DC brush-less or AC servo is the fact that the windings are on the stator, so cooling is much more effective.
Although the DC brush-less and AC sinusoidal motors appear identical, manufacturers call them DC brush-less because there is only two windings powered at a time compared to a true AC servo where the three phases are conducting.
Al

This is support data from someone who does know from another post

Michael t.

As for the encoder being "Rectangular" -- I suppose this is in contrast to a feedback that uses analog signals (most commonly called a "resolver"). But it does also say that under drive type, so who knows.

As for driving the motor with a trapezoidal controller, I would think the issues would be most pronounced at low speed, for two reasons: 1) the torque is not constant because the signals sent through the windings don't change even though the magnetic fields are moving around which affects the force they exert. 2) transition between commutation states is sudden. This causes an audible "click" that can also be felt on the motor shaft.

The question is whether either of these issues cause problems that interfere with the operation of an actual machine. My guess is that it will be fine with a drive like the Rutex, but somebody should try it to make sure!

I find the "clicking" to be annoying so I'm off noodling with my own controller design, but for people who actually want to get stuff done instead of goofing around, I don't see any reason in theory that a trapezoidal drive should be a disaster.

There are two methods used for sinusoidal commutation, one is by resolver (expensive) which puts out a 2ph sine wave and the third phase is produced in the control from these two to synchronize commutation.
The other is by hall type and encoder, the halls type tracks are used initially to indicate where the initial position of the poles are at power up, and once known, the encoder is used to keep track of, and synchronize the sine wave control.
If just the halls are used then this would be Brush-less DC commutation.
Al.

This is not a endorsement of there product but the Logosol LS-131-2010 http://www.logosolinc.com/products/ls-131.htm
This drive works very well with the Sanyo motors, it's a nice drive very small and lots of power (sinusoidal). So easy to hook up 3 or 4 axis just plug in the network cables. Comes with free software (LCDN) which will let you get up and running as fast as you can hook up the servo motor leads. The one big rough point is IT WILL NOT ACCEPT STEP AND DIRECTION INPUT. If anyone can find a clone to this one that will accept step and direction input please let me know.


12A continuous/ 20A peak. Would that be enough for Sanyo P5 1000w motor?

The Logosol at 12 amps continus would be very marginal and the motor would not be able to run at its max. The bigger problem with the Logosol is that you have to write the software to control motion(no step and direction input). Its possible there are applications where the P5 will work OK with a Trapezoidal drive but once again you won't be using the P5 to its potential.

Beside the issue of step and direction. If one was to buy sinusoidal drive for 1kW motor it better be the right one... Especially if the original Sanyo drive is called "50 Amp PY2 Drive" (flame2)

Just wondering...

Have you looked at the LS182 series of drives. They have an 6a,8a,12a &24a models plus they take step and direction. An added feature is they run on DCv for us that already have power supplies. Now all we need is prices. Anyone a dealer out there that might could work a deal? TP :)

The 8/12 amp one looks like about $400:

http://clickautomation.com/products/index.php?func=list&cid=172

Does the LS-182 do sinusoidal commutation? I get the impression from that web page that it does not.

I measured the waveform of the Sanyo motor with an oscilloscope (the first picture). It looks almost like sine but not exactly. Anyway I think it's meant to be sinewave type motor (far from trapezoid or rectangular). Edit: this motor is the 300W model.

There is also captured waveform of another servo motor (the second pic).

correct me if I am wrong but all motors will output a sine wave. I don't believe there is such a thing as a digital motor.

You can comutate a motor either way weather it was ment to or not it just might not run smoothly if you do it with a trapazoidal wave do to coging(probably do to Low number count).

The trapazoidal drive is still a sine wave but it is a trapazoidal sine wave. It looks like stair steps. Personaly I think the trapazoid has more of a chance working properly on a sine wave motor that the opposite. If the PWM of the trapazoidal wave is fast enough the wave will end up looking rather conventional sign wavish (any hear take integral calc?). But a sinusoidal wave is smooth but slow reacting at low rotor speeds so if the motor is under load it would seem to me that the phase shift would cause problems.

I read an artical on both styles of commutation and the artical was saying that if you want low speed power use trapazoidal if you want High speed power use sinusoidal.

So my question to the guys in the Know: why is everyone saying that trapazoidal commutation will have problems with low rpm? (being since this is its purpose in life)

please don't answer unless you "know" if its a guess please tell me you making a guess. I personaly think these motors will work fine either way. I don't have time in the next few weeks/months to try the rutex but when I get around to it I think it will work.

correct me if I am wrong but all motors will output a sine wave. I don't believe there is such a thing as a digital motor.

...

But a sinusoidal wave is smooth but slow reacting at low rotor speeds so if the motor is under load it would seem to me that the phase shift would cause problems.

I read an artical on both styles of commutation and the artical was saying that if you want low speed power use trapazoidal if you want High speed power use sinusoidal.

Trapezoidal motor is differently wound compared to sinusoid motor. If you turn motor shaft it will generate a voltage waveform that shows its optimal commutation sequence.

I think sinusoidal drive can be superior in every way. A good sine drive will measure current phase shift and compensate it. If trapezoid would be optimal in some speed range then it would be possible to build a drive that swithes to trapezoidal drive when its optimal.

Do you have the links to those articles you read? It would be interesting to see what kind of drives they were talking about to be able to avoid same mistakes :)

I posted the link so let me set the record straight. The good Logosol is the Sinusoidal Drive (LS-131-2010). It's a networked drive and you can easily set up may axis and they all use the same network cable. We need to encourage other manufactures to think along this line. The LS 182 is step and direction but it is a Trapezoidal drive. Price for the LS182Hx-3005 (30Amp peak, 24Amp continues, 18 to 50 Volt input----$639.00----. Price for the LS182x-2010 (20Amp peak, 12Amp continues, up to 90 volt input-----$450.00

The 400w motors and the 300w-no-brake motors are sold out.

Sorry Xerxes I surf the net all the time just reading random not necessarily related stuff because I am a bookworm! So I don't remember the link. But I will Look tonight and see if I can find the article but just from past experience, If you don't book mark it you probably wont find it again.

Like I have posted earlier I am not an electronics guy so the article in question and info on the net is the only thing I have ever read on the brushless motor subject so It wouldn't surprise me If my info is erroneous! Was not looking to start anything just spewing what was read. you know how it is, GIGO Garbage in, Garbage out! :D

Gentlemen,

I have just reviewed the emails of the last couple of days. It looks like some of you are nervous about the Rutex drives. I am not. As I said, I hooked up one drive to one of the 400 watt motors and it ran very smoothly at a slow speed and at around 3000 rpm, I think. That was as fast as the power supply I was using would run it.

Tomorrow I will try to run it VERY slowly and load it down some to put minds to rest. I'll report on how smooth I think it runs. I already tested for this however, and I was impressed by how smoothly they run, even when just creeping along at about 20 rpm, as I recall it.

Last evening I discussed some of the issues brought up in these emails with Vladimir. He told me to tell you all not to worry, they will work. His drives are not sinosoidal and they are not typical two quadrant drives either. They are four quadrant drives. In other words, if I can explain it right, instead of a true sine wave, there are, for each cycle, four different duty cycles of pwm outputs. When integrated, it appears much like a sine wave. The continuous torque of the motor is limited by the heat dissipation of the motor, so it is about the same as a sinosoidal drive in that respect. A sinosoidal drive will have maybe 20% more peak torque however.

I'm going to send one of the 1000 motors to him for him to test with the R2030 drives as soon as they get back from production.

If someone else wants to try an independent test, Our money back guarantee stands. Order a R992, set it up like I explained in this forum and tell us what you found. If you try a 1000 watt motor, use .5 ohm resistors in series with each leg of the motor. It should work fine. If you don't like the drive, return it for 100% money back minus shipping. I have the drives in stock.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Tom, thank you for the reassurance.

If I only had one motor, I'd take your suggestion and buy the 992h drive and report results to the group. Since I have six of them, I really want to have matching amplifiers and utilize your motherboard product.

As soon as you have the 2030 in stock, I'll be ordering one to try with my 1kw motor. What I really want to be sure of is the stability when holding position, to see if it cogs or jitters. This is important when, for instance, when my X and Y axes are moving, but my Z axis is trying to stay in one spot.

So now the question - about how far out is the delivery date for the 2030s?

Tom, a question about the current and/or upcoming brushless driver:

All substantial motor drivers I've seen before (especially those that can do 20 amps continuous) require some sort of cooling -- either a heat sink of some kind or at least a fan. Does the Rutex never require cooling? If it does, how do your users typically set that up?

Thanks!

Gentlemen:

With all the concerns expressed lately, I decided to go out and do some more testing on the 500 watt motor. I only ran the motor up to speeds of 2500 rpm. I don't think I have ever run that motor faster than that. I know I said 3000 rpm last night, but I must have been thinking of some other motor. I test motors pretty often.

I ran the 500 watt Sanyo at about 2 rpm and loaded the shaft with my fingers as it rotated. I noticed that I can barely perceive the commutation shifts, but they are perceptable under load. They did not cause any significant indecision or jittering at that point, but that is how I sensed the change in commutation. I do not believe that it would be a problem on a machine. These motors have very fast time constants, which means that they are VERY responsive.

I also ran it at around 20 rpm, and at higher speeds. I think it runs fine, although I think one can sense the four quadrant pwm signals a little bit. They have a feel under load that seems to me to be slightly more of a buzz than a typical brush motor has. Again, I do not think this will be a problem for me or anyone else. The motor/drive holds its position well.

I really invite someone else to do some testing so that you all can have a second non-biased opinion.

I need to catch up on some other things today so I won't get to build my power supply to run the 1000 watt motor.

Everyone, including myself wants to know precisely what the lead time is on the 2030's. I could not get a firm commitment from Vladimir last night. I thought they were in production already, but last night's phone conversation confirmed that they are not yet. He has parts to produce 80 of them, and just needs to get them started in production. I hope any day now he will get them started. It takes 1-2 weeks to get them done, and usually a week for them to get to me, after testing. His head is deep in programming, and when he is in that mode, I have found that it is a challenge for him to divert his attention. That is one of the ways I help him--by answering routine questions.

That's it for today on the Sanyo motors. Hopefully tomorrow I'll get time to build a power supply and try the 1000 watt motors. I bet they will even run better than the 500 watt ones, having a slightly slower mechanical time constant with the larger armature.

As far as cooling is concerned, I recommend a fan for the brushless drive. I am working on an aluminum chasis for them, which I think will be available real soon. It will have a place for two fans to be mounted on it.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Can anyone tell me what I would need to do to drive two servos in sync with each other? Could I use one driver for two servos? I too purchased the now famous sanyo Denki P5 servos and figured on the 300-watt units but now that I hear there's the possibility of a 20% loss in peak torque from using the Rudex driver I may need to compensate for this. I'd still like to go with the R2030 drivers so anyone who does finally make the match please let us know the outcome. Thanks...

Tom, do these drives have current regulated outputs (torque control) or only voltage driven commutation?

Can anyone tell me what I would need to do to drive two servos in sync with each other? Could I use one driver for two servos?

Use Mach3's slaving function, but you'll still need 2 drives.

Thanks Gerry. I found the thread discussing Mach3's capabilities. Looks pretty good.

You can comutate a motor either way weather it was ment to or not it just might not run smoothly if you do it with a trapazoidal wave do to coging(probably do to Low number count).

The trapazoidal drive is still a sine wave but it is a trapazoidal sine wave. It looks like stair steps. Personaly I think the trapazoid has more of a chance working properly on a sine wave motor that the opposite. If the PWM of the trapazoidal wave is fast enough the wave will end up looking rather conventional sign wavish (any hear take integral calc?). But a sinusoidal wave is smooth but slow reacting at low rotor speeds so if the motor is under load it would seem to me that the phase shift would cause problems.


A sinusoidal motor with a sinusoidal drive will make it possible to point the magnetic field in the motor in any direction, which means that you can get constant torque 360 degrees. This is because a sine drive will excite two windings at the same time, just the right amount to create the torque you need.
It is the same principle that makes a 3-phase AC induction motor run with constant torque, If you do the math, you end up with (sin x)^2 + (cos x)^2 = 1 !

There are two (normal) ways to design a sine wave drive, either a linear amplifier that outputs a true sine wave, or a pwm (class D) amplifier that approximates a sine wave. A linear amplifier isn’t very efficient, so a lot of energy will wasted as heat => expensive transistors, power supply, heat sink etc. A PWM will be very efficient, but requires relatively complicated control of the power transistors. Both require a lot of computing power to synthesize the sine wave.
A trapezoidal drive is much easier to design, but will not have the same control of the windings, so you will not get constant torque. Hence, jerky motion at slow speeds.
A trapezoidally wound motor is a compromise that is wound so that it runs well with a trapezoidal drive. It will have a back EMF that has a more trapezoidal shape. It is not possible to get perfectly constant torque with this configuration.
A sine wave motor with a trapezoidal drive will be even jerkier.

A "two quadrant drive" means that the drive can run a motor in both directions.
A "four quadrant drive" means that the drive can run a motor in both directions, and also decelerate it in both directions, by sucking up the rotational energy. When this happens you need to dissipate the "brake energy" in a large resistor.

With a sinusoidal configuration, you need to know the absolute position of the axis at all times, so you use the encoder for "commutation". But most motors have incremental encoders, so at start up you have no idea of its position. For this reason, you use the hall sensors as a coarse absolute encoder until the drive finds the absolute position. The result is that for a short time during startup the motor is run in trapezoidal mode, which will produce jerky motion. The motor should not be fully loaded during this sequence.

One more thing, just to soothe my conscience:
Since most of you people don’t seem to know exactly what you are doing, keep in mind that 100V, many amps is lethal. Not just by electrocution, something that you THINK is working can go up in flames and start a good fire when you turn your back at it. The smoke isn’t very healthy either. A big power supply can outright explode. And a 400W motor is strong enough to break bones. Etc. etc. I am NOT kidding!
This Rutex stuff seems pretty good, (that’s why I ended up in this forum) and the documentation is brief, but to the point. Read it carefully and get to know at least the basics of what you are doing, before trying anything, and you ought to survive.
If you try to experiment with undocumented drives with unknown characteristics, you need to know what you are doing.
Start experimenting with a low voltage supply (say 18-24V, check the documentation) with the correct fuses until you get the hang of it, and have someone that cares for you stand by the mains switch when you go for full power. And keep one hand in your pocket at all times.

Tom, what DC bus voltage are you testing the 400watt motors with?

jnhg, good advice. Anything powered by line AC has the potential to be dangerous!

Darek

Hi all

This is Irfan From India I asked one of my friend in America to get the NOW FAMOUS 400 w servos for me and he went for it now to get them transfered to india it gonna cost me 330 USD and i dont mind spend so much and paying DHL the more cost as the motors 3 of them cost me around 143 USD ? My question is what is the actual cost of that motor and i hope its not a loss for me...its my first step in making my router so the drives are next and all the electronics for it...I already have a dedicated PC for it and to get Rutex driver again i have to wait a two months so that i can save in my earnings for it...so it goes on.....jusst telll me it was worth getting those motors to India..........!

ok, i'm gonna take this in a little different direction and prove how dumb i can be :P i was talking with a friend today and he had an idea that neither of us knew would work or not. He had a few yaskawa VFD AC drives laying around and we were both curious if instead of using one of the 400 or 1000 drives as a servo, if you needed a nice spindle motor would one of the servo's work with a vfd drive? or are we talking apples and pumpkins difference here?

Hi!

There has been some progress in my servodrive. It already tracks motion by step/dir interface and has true sinusoidal commutation. However it will take lots of work to finish it.

I also tested to downgrade it to trapezoidal drive to see if there was any difference. There was no noticeable difference when running without load. But unfortunatelyit gets significantly worse under load. "Cog" can be felt easily six times per revolution. I think this kind on cogging could be undesirable for surface finish.

Good job Xerxes!

I'm progressing slower than you; it will be a few weeks before I have anything to report, but I am working on it.

if you needed a nice spindle motor would one of the servo's work with a vfd drive? or are we talking apples and pumpkins difference here?

The VFD does not provide commutation, I tried this once out of curiosity and did not get anywhere near satisfactory performance.
Al.

Some people say that VFD can be used to drive permanent magnet motors but it needs to be a Vector control VFD. I haven't seen that in action so I can't be sure.

too bad those 400's would have been very sweet for spindle motors :P

Mach3 has a step and direction spindle option. Just use the Rutex drive and set it up as the spindle. Not sure how well it would work, though.

i haven't used it as such but have set up a servo as a spindle and it ran great but I didn't put it under load. No reason to say it wouldn't work though!

Mach3 has a step and direction spindle option. Just use the Rutex drive and set it up as the spindle. Not sure how well it would work, though.

but would this not take valuable step/sec away from the steps avail for the axis movements?

Just asking; I'm not sure

Just a note to everybody; there are only 34 300watt left; all of the bigger ones have gone too; better hurry if anyone needs them

but would this not take valuable step/sec away from the steps avail for the axis movements?

Just asking; I'm not sure


not if you use a G-Rex;)

I too have set up a stepper as a spindle but not to use, just set it up and ran it in mach2/3


Jon

but where do you get this g-rex beast

Just a note to everybody; there are only 34 300watt left; all of the bigger ones have gone too; better hurry if anyone needs them


These look familiar ---> http://www.motiononsale.com/SanyoDenki.html

yeah for like 10 times the price we paid

geckodrive has the g-rex, not sure if they are selling them yet but they are on the site, and I think mach4 pre alpha is out to download. I don't know how things are gonna work out, but I believe itll be a while till things are final and set.

Jon

but would this not take valuable step/sec away from the steps avail for the axis movements?

Just asking; I'm not sure

Mach3 supposedly will do 6 axis + the spindle all at once, so I wouldn't think it'd be a problem.

The easiest way to get a G-Rex (Gecko G100) would be to wait until Art sells it as a package with Mach4. You can but it now from Gecko as a 2 piece unit, sold seperately, but you'll also have to purchase a processor for it and download and install firmware. When the software is ready, the package should be plug and play. :) I read 1 month 'til beta, I'd guess 3 to 4 months for a stable, fully functional product. But it may be sooner, as Art is retiring from his day job soon and will then be working full time on Mach software.

thanks Gerry

Mach3 supposedly will do 6 axis + the spindle all at once, so I wouldn't think it'd be a problem.

The easiest way to get a G-Rex (Gecko G100) would be to wait until Art sells it as a package with Mach4. You can but it now from Gecko as a 2 piece unit, sold seperately, but you'll also have to purchase a processor for it and download and install firmware. When the software is ready, the package should be plug and play. :) I read 1 month 'til beta, I'd guess 3 to 4 months for a stable, fully functional product. But it may be sooner, as Art is retiring from his day job soon and will then be working full time on Mach software.

G-Rex is a FPGA engine (Field Programmable Gate Array) it will do anything the CPU tells it to do. Mariss at Gecko Is working on some interesting things. They don't use G-code. I've had one for over one month and it is a great piece of hardware. One thing to remember if the G-Rex is commanding step and direction at 2 MHz the servo motor amp must have the ability to accept this signal at 2 MHz. You could tell the G-rex to slow down but that is counter productive. The weak link in the chain will be how good you are.

G-Rex is a FPGA engine (Field Programmable Gate Array) it will do anything the CPU tells it to do. Mariss at Gecko Is working on some interesting things. They don't use G-code. I've had one for over one month and it is a great piece of hardware. One thing to remember if the G-Rex is commanding step and direction at 2 MHz the servo motor amp must have the ability to accept this signal at 2 MHz. You could tell the G-rex to slow down but that is counter productive. The weak link in the chain will be how good you are.

I said the easiest way :)

I found the wires running 72 ohms and will find a source of 24v soon enough to check it out. These wires are comming out of the same cable as the 3 phase wires are comming out of along with what appears to be a ground.

Jon


Two yellow wires are for the brake.

Hi! I posted a thread for discussion of about those new sinusoidal drives to be developed.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14477

Does anyone know the diameter of the shaft of the 1000w motor.
Mine have not arrived, however fitting timing pulley in advance.
Thanks

16mm.

Gentlemen,

The 1000 watt motor that I sent to Vladimir in Australia for testing with the 2030 drive arrived broken. It rattled--not packed well enough.

I sent another one on Friday.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Tom, did you ever run some more tests at slow speed?

Real shame Tom

Better luck with the next
Mine are still in Lowell Michigan; I'll hopefully have them soon

Steve

Gentlemen,

I did run more tests at low speed. I thought it worked fine under light load on my bench with my finger and thumb restraining the shaft. I would have no complaints. I did not mount the motors on any machine yet. I ran it at speeds between 2 rpm and 20 rpm. It ran smoothly.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Tom are you using the R992H to test with or are you using
the new R2030?
Also what motherboard are you using?
Are the R2120's avaliable yet?

he's been using the 992; there are no 2030's here yet
If you read the whole thread and the other one; you'll be up to speed

reading right now!!

Gentlemen,

I sent a 1000 watt Sanyo motor to Vladimir. Actually, I sent the second one last Thursday or Friday. The first one arrived broken in Australia. Vladimir will test it on the R2030. He has some R2030's to test on, but the first production run will be picked up from the factory that assembles them next week. (He confirmed this on Monday night for me.)

Vladimir uses a DC motor for a load when he tests the motors on the bench. He couples the shafts together and regulates the drag of the load motor by limiting the current that it is generating.

I have asked him to throughly test the 1000 watt motor on the R2030 drives. I don't need any surprises.

Thank you all for your patience. Introducing this whole new series drives (the 2000 series) with the new features that will unfold as the DLL becomes available has been a big step for us.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Tom, I'll be glad to donate one of my 300-watt Sony P5s for the cause. Let me know and I'll send it asap either to you or directly to Vladimir.
Thanks for the updates on the R2000 equipment.

The Gentleman who started the thread below has gotten one of the 300W motors spinning with a homebrew solution. I believe the Rutex drives are not Sinusoidal AC drives, but simply Bruchless DC drives. So the homebrew solution relying on the encoder for commutation may provide smoother motor control without the "burps" at the commutation point. I believe kits will be available once the design is finished. Check out the thread if you're interested.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14477&highlight=sanyo

I have three of these motors, two of which turn silky smooth with the brake off. My third motor seems to turn a lot harder than the first two only with 4 spots, 90 degrees from each other that turn without much load at all but for only about 10 degrees. Has anyone had a problem like this or know what could be wrong?

I have three of these motors, two of which turn silky smooth with the brake off. My third motor seems to turn a lot harder than the first two only with 4 spots, 90 degrees from each other that turn without much load at all but for only about 10 degrees. Has anyone had a problem like this or know what could be wrong?

Make sure none of the motor wires are touching one another. It will put drag on the armature.

Darek

That was it. Thanks much.

If anyone is in need of an extra Sanyo 1kW motor: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005092000320142&item=10-2210&catname=electric

Good luck!

Thanks M J for that info.

All I can say is wow. I finally got The Surplus Center Sanyo-Denki 1KWs installed on my Bridgeport BOSS. Quiet,smooth and did I mention lots of power?? That old boy is now a BOSSHOG ....... :-) Terry Parker
PS: Thanks Tom for letting me know about them, sorry I couldn't wait on the new rutexs, but I still have 4 more motors to go when you get the drives. Let me know.

Awesome, do you have any pictures of this beast? What drives are are you running them with? I assume the rutex older brushless drives unless the new ones are out?

Jon

Vmax,
Are you using the bridgeport drive or some other drive? So far I have found a few Advanced Motion Control drives that would work ($$) but am still looking for something to use with these motors. Any word on the 1kw with Rutex?

Thanks,
Spence

Gentlemen,

I'm still waiting for a report from Vladimir. Hopefully this week...

Tom Eldredg
Rutex LLC

Just got my 3 P5's today; wow they are big!!!!!

Looks like they could pull a train

Steve

Steve,

Can you tell me how much it cost you to have them shipped to Canada? Was there duty and brokerage charges?

Thanks

I didn't
I had them shipped to Lowell Michigan; then my buddy came to visit me with them; good plan heh

What DC bus voltage have you guys been using on the sanyo denki P5s ?
I'm guessing a low voltage will limit the maximum rpm.

In theory 100VAC should require sqrt(2)*100VDC = 141 V, but I see commercial expensive drives recommending 200V. Maybe that is required to get over the nominal rpm of 3000 and up to the maximum rpm of 4500 ?
This ofcourse would have to be tested with close to maximum load on the motor...

Lets see if I hit the motor with 200 volts will it make more torque and a little more rpm. Funny thing I have a little rule, If the factory rates it at 100 volts that is what I will use, this way it will meet the factory specifications or come very close. However if you have a variable voltage DC power supply, oh oh say that you don't have one no problem we have a extra at work they would love to sell. I think they are asking about 2K and this is a good price we paid over 10K for two about 1 year ago. It uses 220 single phase and will make almost 400 volts DC at 36 amps. This was just an example for fun. The bottom line is the home hobbies people burn up and destroy more equipment than they make work. The why of this is they don't follow instructions. If you have sized your motor properly to the application, Try following the factory recomendations I think you will find your motor's performance to be very good. I don't know of many ball screws that like to spin at 4500 rpm.

I agree; I'd be happy with 2500rpm and a 10mm or 20mm pitch ballscrew; it would fly

Tom, any word from Vlad? What about the 2030's?

Lets see if I hit the motor with 200 volts will it make more torque and a little more rpm. Funny thing I have a little rule, If the factory rates it at 100 volts that is what I will use, this way it will meet the factory specifications or come very close.
...
I don't know of many ball screws that like to spin at 4500 rpm.

My aim is to meet the specified torque and rpm values (their product is power). The motors are 100VAC so a 100VDC rail will surely not be enogh. All servodrives should have current feedback and overcurrent protection so should be fairly insensitive to variations in the dc bus voltage.

I plan on using either a gear or belt reduction between the servo and ballscrew. as you point out, that is the only sensible way to get the rated power out of these servos.

Gentlemen,

At 3:00 AM I talked with Vlad on the phone. He has about 40 of the R2030's tested and ready to ship to me. I said, "I'm ready...please get them coming to me." I hope he will put them in a box now, and get them moving! He has more made, but he had to do some final testing on the rest.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Gentlemen,

As far as the voltage is concerned, I intend to run the R2030 at around 85 volts. That will give some room for 10% line voltage fluctuation and for the power supply capacitor to obsorb the BEMF. That is where I normally run the R2010 drives also. It takes a 60 vac secondary loaded according to transformer spec to put the voltage at 85 volts. I hope some day Vladimir makes a 40 amp version of the R2030. We need to eventually get the voltage up there.

The trouble is that Rutex already has a pretty broad product line considering the torch height controls etc. It costs a lot to support as many products as Rutex offers.


Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Tom , Have you gotten a test results back on using the 2000 Series Drives and the P5 Sanyo-Denki surplus motors? Thanks Terry

Gentlemen,

Vladimir tested the 1000 watt Sanyo Denki motor I sent him with the R2030. He reported that it ran fine. I asked him if he used the 1 ohm resistors in his test and he said he had not, but that he recommended that we use them. He did not give any more details but commented that there never was any question in his mind that these drives would run the Sanyo motors fine. So... now we are waiting to actually receive them and give them our own tests!

I'll report to you as soon as I know they are actually on their way to me. Vlad may be waiting to include them in the next shipment of inventory to me. I received a large shipment around Dec. 20 (I think that's when they came). If they had been ready at that time they would have been included, but he had to have one chip (not the pic) replaced on all of the drives (70) made in that first batch. They had the wrong firmware loaded in them. This caused an unexpected delay.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

i know that migh be tooo late, but does anyone have any of these motors for sale ?, maybe anyone gut an extra 1 or 2 (actually i need 3) or somewhere i can buy it with close price ?, i tired ebay but no luck
HELP GUYS HELP

There was a website that had the 1kW model for sale at 199$ if you think that is reasonable... can't find it right now though...

Surplus Center still has 100W motors. They're selling them on Ebay for $33 each.
http://cgi.ebay.com/SANYO-DENKI-P5-SERVO-MOTOR-P50B05010PCKS7_W0QQitemZ7571067848QQcategoryZ78195QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

come on 100watts ! , this motor is a baby, also 199$ is not the right price
anyway thanks guys i guess i will keep on looking

There isn't extreme cogging of the 1000 watt Sanyo due to the trapezoidal drive? I would have thought a 4 pole motor would *jump* at each transition point. Very curious to see a real time plot of position error as the motor is run continuous. I bet the graph has hump hump hump hump, but the question is, how large is the hump? A few steps out of 4000 (the sanyo has 1000 line encoders right?) might be ok, but I would start to worry if you were getting jumps of 30 or 40 steps. Presumably you could tune these out a little bit but maybe at a sacrifice of stiffness...

I would like to have couple of 100W's for drive testing purposes but their high delivery costs and Western Union payment are keeping me from ordering them. :-|

Where are you located Xerxes? Maybe one of us could arrange something...

KTP,
I live in the Finland in the city of Tampere.

Few months ago a group of Finnish CNC hobbyists arranged a group order of about 20 servos. I got 4 units of the 300W models and I paid about $80 (66 euros) per motor. I fear that ordering just one or two 100W motors would make them bit too expensive just for robust AC drive development. Of course I would greatly appreciate if someone really would be willing to arrange a more affordable way of delivering motors. :-)

Gentlemen,

In reference to the quote below, I did not observe this when the motor was being driven by the R992H and I do not expect to observe this on the R2030's.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC


[QUOTE=KTP]There isn't extreme cogging of the 1000 watt Sanyo due to the trapezoidal drive?

I was just referencing Al's quote (and others):

"Although these motors look like a good deal, price-wise. I backed out from buying at the last minute, what detered me was the the issues of only 4 pole, I am guessing that anything but sinusoidal drive is going to cause a rough low speed issue if run by any other method."

I have noticed a small amount of this "cogging" even on an 8 pole brushless motor using a BE15A8E advanced motion control trapezoidal drive and my step/dir to analog controller (has a very fast 10khz servo PID loop). The effect is rather small however. On that motor, which has 8000 count (in quadrature) encoders, I see humps of about 5 steps at each commutation point at low rpm. It is barely audible and you can't feel it, but you can see it in the position error graph my board outputs. Of course 5 steps out of 8000 on a 5 pitch leadscrew is only 0.000156 inches...probably not going to make much of a difference on a cnc mill.

Very interesting if the rutex drive actually has no cogging at all. I will hook up a 1kW sanyo to this AMC drive today and measure the cogging.

Rick

Last evening I discussed some of the issues brought up in these emails with Vladimir. He told me to tell you all not to worry, they will work. His drives are not sinosoidal and they are not typical two quadrant drives either. They are four quadrant drives. In other words, if I can explain it right, instead of a true sine wave, there are, for each cycle, four different duty cycles of pwm outputs. When integrated, it appears much like a sine wave. The continuous torque of the motor is limited by the heat dissipation of the motor, so it is about the same as a sinosoidal drive in that respect. A sinosoidal drive will have maybe 20% more peak torque however.


This is from Rutex at post 133 of this thread.

So from this I gather the Rutex drive is actually using the encoder signals (after getting the phase correct on startup using the hall sensors) as commutation points to implement a crude 16 step sine wave (via pwm)? If this is the case, it would certainly be a step up from a trapezoidal AMC or copley amplifer drive. One would think with a lookup table and a few more lines of code, 8 bit pwm sine waves could be generated using the same scheme (encoder commutation). Please correct me if I have misunderstood how Rutex is doing their commutation.

Just saw three of the 1k motors going for around a thousand on ebay.

KTP,

I do not know all the internal workings of the drive, but I do not believe encoder feed back is in any way used for commutation. This level of technical questions needs to be addressed to Vladimr. He can normall be reached via email at vh@rutex.com. His phone number is on the Rutex.com web site.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Ok, thanks Tom. I appreciate the work you do to keep us informed!

Originally, I had assumed the rutex drive would just use the hall sensors for commutation, in the industry standard 6 step approach where each phase is energized for 120 degrees of the electrical rotation cycle (note that a 4 pole motor would have 720 electrical degrees per mechanical revolution). This 6 step approach means the rotor and stator fields vary between 60 degrees and 120 degrees (90 degrees being the ideal for maxium torque). Really what this boils down to is you will get a boost or kick as the hall commutation realligns the fields from 120 degrees to 60 degrees, or from 60 degrees to 120 degrees. This will cause some degree of ripple in the output. A high gain velocity loop would minimize this somewhat, but I don't know to what degree.

I would love to see a running graph of position error under various loads of the Sanyo 1kW servo running on a Rutex drive. It sounds like they work well together, and I am curious as to why.

The Sanyo Denki Servo motor 100watt has gone from the Surplus Center. My last check they have about 80. Wow amazing!

Can anyone post a link to these motors, or are they no longer available? My search on the site yielded nothing. Thanks.

They're all sold out.

Pardon the inquiry in case I missed something, but how does one find out more details on the Rutex products?

The website had no contact information or pricing when I looked at it tonight.

And I want to make my Sanyo Denki P5 400W motors go!

Tom

Tom,
You did not look well enough :)
Click Home > Buy Now

Contact
Click Home > Contacts

Ken

Ken,

What is the website then?

I tried www.rutex.com and all I see are the products. Click on any of them and all I get is the close-up photo.

No other links appear on the page.

The menues are on the left side of the screen
i.e.
Home
Products
Buy Now
Help

http://www.rutex.com/home/index

That should get you there.

Ken

My apologies....

I had to go to a different PC.
The one I was using has the "Newest, Greatest" version of Internet Explorer; IE7, Beta1 installed, and the items on the left side don't show up.

Return to IE6 and all is fine.

Tom

most probably it had security settings high so that it would not display frames or scripting or something. You could either tell it to trust the Rutex site, or change your settings.

Gentlemen,

I finally have 36 of the R2030 brushless drives in stock. They were tested in Australia with one of the surplus 1000 watt Sanyo D. motors. It must have been a slow boat that the plane was mounted to. Anyway, I'm ready to ship them to you all. Vladimir has more in stock in Australia, so if these go too quickly, we'll get more over here ASAP.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

Would it be possible for you to hook one up to a 1kW sanyo and give us your test results? I am curious how they perform with a 4 pole motor like the sanyo.

If Vlad says they work it should be enough
I'm sure Tom has more important things to do than repeat whats already been done

Stevie,
I think Tom will find the time alright, if I recall correctly, he purchases 10 of the 1KW units :D

If the Sanyo motors work so well with the Rutex drive, why is anyone bothering to develop a sinusoidal drive? It just doesn't seem worth it to me when the Rutex drive is so inexpensive. Am I missing something??? Xerxes?

Syp, sinusoidal drive should be more optimal in every way. I'm also planning to try to create a "custom shape commutation" method that perfectly matches the commutation shape of Sanyo P5. If succeed, that could perform even better than pure sinusoidal commutation.

And I would build this drive even if Rutex costed $0. Just for hobby :-)

way to go !!, please go ahead and build it, not everyone thinks that rutex is inexpensive . beside a lot wants to build their own drives
to be honest i cant wait to build it

Xerxes, I did not mean to imply that developing a open source brushless drive was non-worthwhile, rather I was incredulous that a trapezoidal drive would perform as well as a sinusoidal drive on a low pole count sinusoidal wound motor like the P5. There HAS to be significant bumps at each commutation point...unless there is some magic we don't know about.

When you apply 24VDC to the brake on the P5 1KW motor and spin the shaft by hand, it turns smoothly, but it seems you can sorta hear the plates of the brake vibrating. When I run the motor under power, it mades a bit of noise, rather like the brake plates or disks are loose and clanging (not a large amount of noise, but otherwise the motor would be whisper quiet I think). I tried this on 3 different P5 motors, fresh from their boxes, so I know it is not just a problem with a particular motor. Maybe it is supposed to sound like that when the brake has power...?

How smooth is the 24vdc? If it is unfiltered, you might be getting some effect due to ripple.
Al.

24V with maybe 20mV ripple (it is a nice linear supply).

I should clarify that I did not mean that I hear a buzzing noise, rather it sounds like two plates loosely jostling inside the motor as you turn the shaft. This is in all the motors, not just one particular. Has anyone tried taking a motor apart to remove/examine the brake?

I should clarify that I did not mean that I hear a buzzing noise, rather it sounds like two plates loosely jostling inside the motor as you turn the shaft. This is in all the motors, not just one particular. Has anyone tried taking a motor apart to remove/examine the brake?

this brake noise is the same as you describe for my 1 kW motor and the six 400W motors I have, so it's probably normal and nothing to worry about. I have not tried taking the servo apart, it looks like it is pretty well wate/dust sealed as it is so I would not open it...

What drives are you using KTP, and how are the running for you?


Jon

Hi Jon,

I am using a Reliance Electric BDC-25L Brushless amplifier with my Pixie P100 step/dir to +/-10V analog PID controller. The BDC-25L is actually really an Advanced Motion Controls board under the covers...25 amps max, 12.5 amps continuous, takes standard AC input (all the controls are opto-isolated on it).

I bought it brand new on ebay for $60...I just bought another one on ebay today (waited to post this until auction was over, ;) ) for $26!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Reliance-Electric-BDC-25L-Brushless-Amp-NEW_W0QQitemZ7585289977

Of course now I will never win the next one this seller puts up...

Couple it with the Pixie P100 and I have a dirt cheap drive for my 1KW motors. The P5 runs really well on this drive...perhaps because of the 10khz PID update loop on the Pixie. Here is a video of it pushing around my Shizouka B-3V bedmill at 360IPM. I had it running upwards of 600IPM but it was starting to shake the house :banana: Obviously the amp and Pixie will be mounted in my cabinet, just showing it off for the video.

http://www.skyko.com/videos/SanyoP5.wmv


Needless to say, it works 1000% better than the Fanuc model 0 DC motor I used to have on that X axis!

KTP, Do you have any posts anywhere about this pixie P100? maybe more info or somethign on it because if I could get something like that relatively cheap, I would have boughten drives a long time ago, I saw some AMC drives going for under $20
Are the drives you bought AC or DC brushless and how smooth do they run? from the video it looked pretty good.

Jon

Jon, I have not really posted much about the Pixie P100 because I am just finishing up the website and finalizing the data sheet and documentation (wow, is that a LOT more work than I realized...I have a greater respect for people who develop products). If you go to www.skyko.com there is a bit of information there, and I should have the datasheet uploaded by this weekend. I did an initial run of 100, which is probably going to be too few since I have already found a use for 10 of them in my own cnc projects (chair)

I put a lot into the board to make it easy to use and yet very configurable. It has digital noise filtering of the encoder signals, screw terminals for all connections, adjustable step multiply and allowable error, jumper selectable +/-5V or +/-10V analog output, 1.5 million quadrature encoder counts per second and 250,000 steps/per sec inputs (steps can be multiplied internally up to the 1.5 million limit on the encoder count).

It has RS-232 communication for tuning/settings using any terminal program or if you desire nice graphs there is a free software program we wrote that communicates with the Pixie and displays several different tuning graphs for optimizing things.

The Pixie P100, BDC-25L DC brushless drive, and the Sanyo P5 1kW motor works VERY well slow speed (like even at 1 RPM or less). I was very pleased with this. I wish I had purchased 60 of the P5 1kW motors instead of 6 :frown:

I will make a quick video of the motor running on the bench, at fast and slow speeds, so you can see and hear how it runs.

Hi,

I made the video of the motor spinning as I promised, but I moved the thread over to servo motors and drives as I believe this forum is really supposed to be limited to Rutex products?

You can read the description there, but here is the link to the video:

http://www.skyko.com/videos/P5spin.wmv

Hi KTP,

It is a nice move (smooth for slow moving, and fast moving!) of your motor control. Good Job!
I can not find any datasheet on the site. Have you upload it?
BTW what is the output of P100? Can we connect it to other driver instead of BDC-25L?

TR2000 :)

Gentlemen, KTP

Thank you for trying to keep this thread on track. It is easy to get off track when creative people participate. However, I think some of the comments in recent posts have introduced some confusion regarding the VM specification for the Rutex brushless servo drive. The R2030 and the previous model both have a maximum motor voltage of 100 vdc at this time. One should not try to run them exactly at this voltage however.

Take a look at our informative document on the Rutex.com web site entitled "Motor and Drive matching," found under products, R20x0 series. It explains how to determine what voltage should be used. The Sanyo D. motors are rated at 100 v.

KTP,

It looks like you have built a fine drive there, and I thank you for following through with your plan as outlined below:

[QUOTE=KTP]Hi,
I made the video of the motor spinning as I promised, but I moved the thread over to servo motors and drives as I believe this forum is really supposed to be limited to Rutex products? [END of Quote]

I have a strong hunch that later this year Rutex will be enhancing its brushless drive offerings in more than one way, but I do not have any formal announcements to make.

Right now we are close to releasing the DLL which will allow very powerful motion control which will provide many times greater throughput and control than the present step and direction control that is presently implimented in all of our R2000 products, and which will continue to be available. However, in addition to the step and direction control, Windows based cnc control programs will soon be able to send high level commands directly to the R2000 drives you already have. The firmware is already built into the drives to match with the multi-axis DLL which I expect will soon be released.

Tom Eldredge,
Rutex LLC

Right now we are close to releasing the DLL which will allow very powerful motion control which will provide many times greater throughput and control than the present step and direction control that is presently implimented in all of our R2000 products, and which will continue to be available. However, in addition to the step and direction control, Windows based cnc control programs will soon be able to send high level commands directly to the R2000 drives you already have. The firmware is already built into the drives to match with the multi-axis DLL which I expect will soon be released.

Tom Eldredge,
Rutex LLC

Now you guys need to get Art to support it in Mach4, as soon as he finishes with your competitors product. ;)

Now you guys need to get Art to support it in Mach4, as soon as he finishes with your competitors product. ;)

I think a lot of people (myself included) will be keenly interested in the Rutex motion controller. Mach4 support would be very compelling; it would change my interest level from 'just window shopping' to 'buying.'

Tom, can you tell us if something along these lines is in the works? If no support for Mach4 is planned, what control software would work with the Rutex controller?

johan, I just put the data sheet up on my site...I will post the link in the servo motors and drives subforum.

Gentlemen,

Regarding the quote below:

I think a lot of people (myself included) will be keenly interested in the Rutex motion controller. Mach4 support would be very compelling; it would change my interest level from 'just window shopping' to 'buying.'

Tom, can you tell us if something along these lines is in the works? If no support for Mach4 is planned, what control software would work with the Rutex controller?

I can only repeat what Vladimir says: It will be hard for Art not to support it. However, several users have asked Art, and he has said that Vladimir has not contacted him about it yet. As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense for Vladimir to contact him regarding it until the DLL is done and ready to use. I do think Vladimir is right, however. I think it will be hard to resist. It is not the type of thing that needs development on both sides. It will be simple for any cnc control to use, as far as I understand. So...lets wait and see. I think we are pretty close. Vladimir hardly allows me to interrupt him at this stage for anything!

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC
Rutex LLC

Tom&Vladimir, any chances of making that control protocol open? If it were open many programs might already have a support for it.

Besided making just dll might be a bad idea since platform will be always evolving (PC&Operating system). It may be an endless job to keep the dll up to date.

Gentlemen,...I do think Vladimir is right, however. I think it will be hard to resist. It is not the type of thing that needs development on both sides. It will be simple for any cnc control to use, as far as I understand. So...lets wait and see....

Perhaps I misunderstood the scope. I know Art's been working very hard for quite a while on support for the GRex. Is the Rutex SPI interface less involved than that?

Gentlemen,

I believe sometime ago, one of you with more experience than I have with brushless motors put on line instructions on how to align a hall commutationg simulator encoder to a brushless motor armature but I was unable to find it, after looking through all the posts in this thread. I have a user in a foreign country that is asking how to do this. I should have saved the post, but I did not.

Can anyone else help with this?

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=114178&highlight=hall#post114178

I don't know if this is what your looking for but post #44 is similar to what your asking.

www.a-m-c.com has an explanation in their app notes.

Hi all,

I purchased 4 of the Sanyo Denki P5 motors, model no. P50B07030VXKS7, which is the 300 Watt model with no brake. I have gotten them to work in my machine, but now have a bit of problem. I didn't buy enough of them before they were all sold. As it was, there were less than 20 left when I bought mine. This has placed me in a bad situation of needing more of these motors. They are the only motors that will fit in the less than 4.5 inches of space that I have available in my machine. Redesign of the machine is out of the question at this point. Does anyone out there have any of these motors to sell? I would really appreciate any help here. Please let me know. Thank you.

Has anyone else gotten their motors installed and working? I've just gotten time and energy to start my mill conversion. I remember seeing a couple of posts that people were able to control them with relative ease, but I know that more people than that bought these things. Would appreciate to hear something and keep this thread alive. Thanks.

KTP has his working. I have my first drive comming but I dont have a pixie card for converting step-dir to +/-10v yet.

Hopefully in mid june I'll have at least one motor running.

Jon

Are you using the 2030 drive from Rutex, or something else?

AMC drive, its a trapazoidal wave drive.

Jon

Did or are you building you own power supply?

I havent ironed out all the details, the drive has its own power supply but it takes 30-125vac, I think Im going to have set up a transformer to give it around 70-80vac so when its rectified its only giving my motors around 100vac. If I remember right, KTP hasnt stepped his down on his. The drives he runs I think are a rebranded AMC drive(same one I got).

The motor I plan on hooking up to it is my 1kw P5, I have 300w and 400w motors also.

I'll have more information near june when I can get a pixie(out of stock)


Jon

Gentlemen,

I do have the R2030 drives in stock and there are users using them with the P5 motors. I don't know why they are not responding to this post.

FOr all the motors that were purchased, I am surprized at how few actually ordered the drives. It took Vladimir so long to finish them that an opportunity was missed.

Actually, it was not negligence on his part, much of his time was being obsorbed by a serious health issue that one of his immediate family members has been dealing with, and all of our plans for Rutex have been delayed some. I believe we are back on track now. He put the care of his family first. Now we need to get better provisions in place to cover such contingencies. It is part of an overall growth process.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

I plan on buying Rutex, but it'll be another year or 2 before I get to use my 5 motors. :)

I have not head a chance to read through the whold thread yet, but I did notice a post from Gerry a while back mentioning that these drives are not yet supported by Mach3 (or Mach4) which prompts me to ask. What software suports the rutex drives that can be used for 3 axis router table applications? (If it matters the g-code will be generated by RhinoCAM.)

SPI is whats not supported, its a communication interface rutex uses on their drives as well as LPT, so they will work with mach3 on regular parallel port communication. With this, your limited to 45khz of mach3 unless you want to hook them up to a grex. I think art is planning on interfacing with SPI in the future, after the grex/mach4 software is all worked out.

Jon

Hi Seems like i'm late again.
Does anyone have/ know of some of these 1kw motors that are still floating around?
I would love to get 3x 1kw and at least one x 400W
Thanx
Pieter

Hi Seems like i'm late again.
Does anyone have/ know of some of these 1kw motors that are still floating around?
I would love to get 3x 1kw and at least one x 400W
Thanx
Pieter

One set of 3 1kW motors is listed on Ebay going June 25th. See here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7631290661&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

Thanx MJ
I have them on my radar! (hopefully on my desk soon)
P

P5 Motors

Does anyone have these on any machines with the Rutex drives making parts? If so how well are they performing, what machines are you using them on? What kind of tolerances are you holding?

Thanks

Hi Seems like i'm late again.
Does anyone have/ know of some of these 1kw motors that are still floating around?
I would love to get 3x 1kw and at least one x 400W
Thanx
Pieter

I've got three of the 1KW motors with the brakes. Still in the boxes, never opened. I've got at least one, and maybe up to three of the 400W motors (they are in storage so I'd need to check). I hate to sell these, but I'm in a jam financially and need to generate some cash. I'll say right now I can't sell them for what they sold for at SurplusCenter.com-it will be more. If anyone is interested please PM or email me, else they are eBay-bound with a reserve. Thanx!

Evo :)

i need some help with putting a hitachi seik with yasnag controller back together the varispeed 626 II and both servo drive cards are missing (HT-25) e-bay has pieces listed for reasonable but they look newer yashawa is useless for help and the local cnc mafia is looking for 200% over book.

danny sebastian

Hi All,

I have had a hard time finding reasonably priced drives for the sanyo servos so I am selling a 1kW P5 Sanyo Denki servo on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120063932099

I have also have three of the 400W motors which will probably be for sale later if anyone is interested.

AW

My three 400W servos are now also on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120064261408

AW

hi

sorry to bring this thread back up

JUst curious here Tom ( rutexus ) do you have any of these motors floating around ?

prices ? and shipping to Melbourne Australia ?

cheers

Gentlemen,

I do not know where to find any more of these motors, but occasionally they show up on ebay. I am responding to an inquiry here.

Tom Eldredge
Rutex LLC

heres a variety pack: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270091422863&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017

Does anyone has these motors for sale?

Hi
I have 6 x 1KW units that I may be interested in parting with.
Des

I have a variety of these motors i am willing to sell.

Kindly PM me with wattage, price and location if motors are available.

I will try to get back to you guys by friday with the motors i have and am willing to sell.. prices will be negotiable but don't expect me to give them away.

hi
I am looking for an ac 3ph servo motor. between 50-500W power and 1000-3000 rpm.
Can you help me?
Thanks

I know this is an old and dead thread But I finaly got off my butt and put the P5 motors up on ebay if anyone is interested.....

I know this is an old and dead thread But I finaly got off my butt and put the P5 motors up on ebay if anyone is interested.....

Got an item number? I looked under sanyo servo and didn't see yours.

spence

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200381358811&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200381359713&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200381362342&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

Im also putting the 100w motors up but havnt got a picture of them yet

No Returns Accepted

why would anyone purchase anything without any way to return if it were no good?

budP

Obviously not an Ebay regular...or a used anything purchaser.


That is really silly question, have you ever heard the term as is? If you buy a used car will the old owner let you return it?

These motors are New in box and I am not a motor distributor or wholesaler I am a guy that has STUFF that is for sale.

Don't read into things and if you don't buy from Ebay no worries but just putting up ignorant or uninformed questions is TROLLING.

I have a customer right now looking for big dc servo's, I will send him your link.

The only problem I get with ebay motors is when the guy doesn't pack it well and i recieve it poking through the side of the box. I once had 3 size 23 servo's arrive loose in a box with all encoders smashed !. Just a bit of popcorn as packing material.:rolleyes:

Larry K

I have had the same, a few motors that did not survive.
One was a very large 10Nm motor, no packing, it did not survive the UPS test.
I think those Michael has for sale are AC.
Al.

I bought them, amazingly not one other person put in a bid on them. Now I have a set of motors to build a nice big router.
Steve
I know this is an old and dead thread But I finaly got off my butt and put the P5 motors up on ebay if anyone is interested.....

I am just sorry I sat on the fence for the last 15 of these when they were offered by the Surplus Centre at $40.00 ea. :mad:
Al.

I paid a little more than that - but not much more. These 1Kw motors should be just the thing for my upcoming router/plasma project. I have about 30-40 brand new analog drives to power them with, just need KTP to make some more pixie boards. :)
Steve

You mention analog drives for the sanyo motors, are they the proper drives for these motors Which drives are they?

I have a qty of the sanyo motors if anyone needs more.

Bill

You mention analog drives for the sanyo motors, are they the proper drives for these motors Which drives are they?

I have a qty of the sanyo motors if anyone needs more.

Bill

Hello Bill
Yes these are the correct drives for the motors - the only 'catch' is you need to be able to supply +/-10V to control them. Either a 'Pixie board' (or equivalent step and direction to analog) or an industrial type motion controller board is needed.
Steve

You can use a Galil or one of these with Mach3.

http://www.vitalsystem.com/web/motion/dspmc.php

This will also work with Mach.
http://dynomotion.com/