I kinda know how it works. Is it costy to do? I know about mold dies. I work in a mold **** and have other people that could help me... But does it work the same way...? anybody know?

Actually it is not like molds. there are several types of dies for forming and cutting anf they act quite differently.
1) is a simple trim die that blanks out a sheatmetal shape.
2) is a simple form die that bends the metal with very little drawing of the metal
3) is a draw die, that actually gets all the metal moving over a mandrel or shaped form.
4) is the most complicated. a progresive die where the triming starts at one end and has multiple stations where the web of metal is moved forward for multple trim, forming or drawing operations.
http://www.dieservice.com/progressive_closeup.jpg
this is an example of a simple progressive die web.

http://www.lyonstool.com/Images/More-images-021(ob4aq1).gif
is an example of a lower half of a progressive die that appears to make a small part that contains trim, form and post form trim sections.

thanks a lot.. yea I make those support pillars and that a block at my job now.. I was just curious on how different they are.... hmmm

http://www.atlanticengineered.com/assets/images/stamping/01_stamping.jpg
here is a good example of a progressive draw die web. These are kind of an art, because the quality of the steel can vary one must make provision for adjusting the draw pressure. Note the wrinkes on the draw, generally not a good sign. This one looks like it creates quite a bit of waste as well.

Ok.. I dont want anything big and spectacular. I just want to be able to stamp out a "bracket" out of mild steel that is about 4" x 2" with a few radii on the corners and a few holes in the middle. Any idea on how I could do this?

http://www.aa-mfg.com/pdshop/shop/item.asp?itemid=807

things like this...

A single die with the shape you need. the clearance between the upper and lower is dictated by the material thickness as is the tonnage needed to balnk the material. You want to make a provision for spliting the scrap as well so it is easier to handle.

For low run die, water hard tool steel and flame hardening with a torch would be adequate.

A single die with the shape you need. the clearance between the upper and lower is dictated by the material thickness as is the tonnage needed to balnk the material. You want to make a provision for spliting the scrap as well so it is easier to handle.

For low run die, water hard tool steel and flame hardening with a torch would be adequate.

the thickness is about 1/4"....

How can I learn more about making dies?

Go talk to a local stamping house. They may be able to offer some examples.

Scott

The closet place I know about is sun microstamp and I know they aren't going to be cheap but anyway I want to learn how to make the dies myself...

Good luck - let us know what you end up with.

Scott

Investing in a die for a few parts is not going to be cost effective at all. I bet the break even point is going to be several hundred parts. A die that stamps 1/4 in plate is going to need to be very rugged, will need either sheared blanks or strip, and a press with plenty of tonnage. Although you can add shear to a die to help the tonnage load it only goes just so far.

A good place to start is the machinery's handbook for tonnage estimates.
Amazon has several books explaining die design start @ around $20 each. You will need to learn about stripper plates, spring pocketing, strip giudes and die clearance to produce break in the steel.

There is a big difference in the cost to produce a low run die and a longer life die. For the type of part you gave as example, minimum machine shop equipment can be considered a milling machine, drill press, band saw, power die filer, and surface grinder. A rotary table for the base radius would be nice. Because the design can be done with a single operation die a small dieset can be used to keep the upper and lower halves aligned, A 2 post bushing type should be OK like this one. http://cgi.ebay.com/Metal-Stamping-Die-Set-for-Punch-Press_W0QQitemZ7553450013QQcategoryZ31372QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

For tighter tolerance work a jig borer and jig grinder is really nice to have. For the kind of parts you want to blank those are not really necessary.

For a part that is 3" X 6" you are going to need a piece of tools steel 3" X6"X2" plus one that is about 2 inches bigger on all sides, so say 7"X10"X2",a pieces of smaller tool steel to use as scrap chopper. A piece of CRS 7"X10"X1 for a stripper, a set of springs to drive the stripper, some CRS for blank guides or strip guides, some stripper pins to oil brake the part of the die surface with springs for those. If you cost out the tools steel & heat treat I think you will be in for a few hundred right there. A used die set big enough is probably $100 or so.

Time to build should just be a few days for a diemaker, couple hours to square mill the raw material and grind it square, a couple hours to lay it out, half a day in the mill for the punch and a day in the mill for the die. Half a day to drill the holes needed and then off to heat treat. Then while at heat treat, a day to make the stripper, Band saw & mill work. the material guides and cut and prep the stripper pins, make some stop blocks. Back from heat treat, half a day to grind it all top and bottom. and maybe grind the punch some to get the clearance right. A day to mount it all in the dies set, check the clearances and dowel the peices in place on the die shoe, drill all the spring holes, etc, Then mount all the other goodies to get it ready on the bench for the first press pass. Then an hour of 2 mounting in the press, and getting the press adjusted. All goes as planned you have a die. If not back to the bench.

You might want to consider someone with a "Strippit" or "Amada" style CNC punch press if edge finish is not a concern. They "nibble" the profile and punch the holes quite cleanly. If you are lucky, you will not even be hit with much of a tooling charge. 1/4 inch is a little heavy for nibbling, but do-able. We have a 20 year old Strippit FC-750 machine running 10 ga. stuff all the time, just a PITA to program.

Just my 2 cents.

The closet place I know about is sun microstamp and I know they aren't going to be cheap but anyway I want to learn how to make the dies myself...

What you would be after there is to see how things are done. Ask for a tour, gain some insight. Ask questions.

Chances are that ad part example you posted was either laser or plasma cut. Not much, beside high production volumes would be stamped out of 1/4" steel. More so for complex shapes than basic squares and circles.

Just the outside periphery of a 4x2" square part is going to be about 7 tons per linear inch. That alone is about 84 tons for your part. The holes may be punched later in another operation to make it cheap. Doing the holes in the same stroke, by setting them at different heights in the die will complicate the works.

If you have the machines and skills available to make the dies, access to the die shoe, heat treat, grinding, or wire cut EDM and a press capacity capable of the tonnage. Then I would go for the learning experience if anything else. Even having the die fail is part of the experience. You will find out what not to do next time.

You could do it on the cheap and see where the market takes your product. Assuming no one else already offers these wares. You making the die verses paying someone will put the payoff in a different light. Production firms cannot work this way of course. It is still best to have a proven plan from someone in the field.

DC

How many are you making?

I'd be very surprised to see stamping or nibbling come anywhere near the cost of laser, or even waterjet. I would expect the latter two to be much cheaper unless you are talking huge quantaties.

-Jeff

I agree - laser cut them for lower volumes. The hard part is volumes between 1K-10K - but even in these volumes, I think laser cutting or even plasma cutting would be the most economical way to go for this part.

I can't see stamping being economical for such a shape until you hit the 20K+ mark. Otherwise, tool amortization is going to add too much to the cost of the part to be of any benefit to your bottom line.

The number of parts and the complexity of the part you want to make should dictate the process. For high volumes (50,000) - use the dedicated tooling/processes such as stamping. For lower volumes, the flexible processes such as CNC (laser cutting, plasma cutting, even machining) are the way to go.

Scott

I see.. well it all depends on how many i'm going to sell.....

for this one I think plasma or water jetting is the answer. For 100-200 pieces it is the most cost effective. You might be able to recover your toooling cost some where below 20K parts with a real sharp pencil, ie single stage, smart design, your personal discounted labor , stc.

No laser, DieGuy?

I think laser is less than water jet - it is definately faster..... Is there a reason you don't mention laser?

Sorry for the hijack...

Scott

There seems to be a trade off between laser (better for most thin stuff) and waterjet (better for thick stuff). I've heard that trade off be anywhere from 1/4" to 3/4". I'd love to hear people's opinions on that as I'm also looking at a 1/4" job soon.

Should I start a seperate thread?

-Jeff

Yeah - new thread - go for it, Jeff. I will play along.....

Scott

I will do so tonight or tomorrow... I need to work up the comparison charts in advance.

-Jeff

I could go ahead and make them on a mill but I couldn't make them fast enough... I definilty couldn't do it on a water jet cause I dont have one... come on guys!

I am guessing I could make a stamping die with my mill....

Why could you not make them fast enough? How many do you need to make in what time frame?

Scott

Okay.... dumb question... Why are you trying to do it yourself? Do you have time (and materials) to spare but no money? You could get a small batch of these made for $200-$300 bucks from a laser cutter.

-Jeff

Why could you not make them fast enough? How many do you need to make in what time frame?

Scott

well it depends on how many I can sell.... and how many I can sell depends on how many I can make....

Okay.... dumb question... Why are you trying to do it yourself? Do you have time (and materials) to spare but no money? You could get a small batch of these made for $200-$300 bucks from a laser cutter.

-Jeff


cause I like to be able to do it myself... I don't want somebody else to do it for me... I want to figure it out to learn how to make it myself...

Okay.... dumb question... Why are you trying to do it yourself? Do you have time (and materials) to spare but no money? You could get a small batch of these made for $200-$300 bucks from a laser cutter.

-Jeff

I know I could just dish over my hard earned cash and just pay somebody but where has that got me? Just 300 dollars poorer and ZERO knowledge gained...

I know I could just dish over my hard earned cash and just pay somebody but where has that got me? Just 300 dollars poorer and ZERO knowledge gained...

not true, you'd begin to understand specialization and concentration of force - you don't make your own ball bearings do you?

not true, you'd begin to understand specialization and concentration of force - you don't make your own ball bearings do you?


what?? now I don't make ball bearings....???

I don't think we are trying to take the wind out of your sails here, but some things are easiest to farm out. A laser could cut out that sample bracket in seconds. You could probably get them from a laser guy for a fraction of what it would cost you to make them yourself. I think that is the point 'we' are trying to make. Go with the most efficient method if you have a product that sells faster than you can make them.

You don't have to have all of the knowledge and equipment to make stuff - you just have to know when to cry 'wolf' and when to scream 'uncle'.

Scott

I don't think we are trying to take the wind out of your sails here, but some things are easiest to farm out. A laser could cut out that sample bracket in seconds. You could probably get them from a laser guy for a fraction of what it would cost you to make them yourself. I think that is the point 'we' are trying to make. Go with the most efficient method if you have a product that sells faster than you can make them.

You don't have to have all of the knowledge and equipment to make stuff - you just have to know when to cry 'wolf' and when to scream 'uncle'.

Scott


I get ya but I doubt I will be able to compete with his prices if I am going through an third guy to produce my product...

outsourcing - happens everywhere....but if you can do it cheaper with slower through put it must mean either your labour or fixed costs are substantially lower - is this sustainable or should you contrate on where you add the most value to the process?

outsourcing - happens everywhere....but if you can do it cheaper with slower through put it must mean either your labour or fixed costs are substantially lower - is this sustainable or should you contrate on where you add the most value to the process?


i mean if it is a product that I want to make i'll work for free ya know? So yes my labor is cheap...

No laser, DieGuy?

I think laser is less than water jet - it is definately faster..... Is there a reason you don't mention laser?

Sorry for the hijack...

Scott

not sure about that on 1/4 inch plate. plus the water jet is smooth and cold.

You could cheap the die with a 1" thick piece of flame hardening steel and a punch mounted on a CRS riser. and use a solid stripper plate.

Jezz for a few hundred parts I bet you could just use case hardend CRS for a die. Don't grind it much or it will be done in a hurry. 2 stations, one to punch the holes and a pitch forward to blank it through. the blanking station would need a punch pilot on the holes to keep them lined up. Real cheap and nasty for just a few hundred.

There seems to be a trade off between laser (better for most thin stuff) and waterjet (better for thick stuff). I've heard that trade off be anywhere from 1/4" to 3/4". I'd love to hear people's opinions on that as I'm also looking at a 1/4" job soon.

-Jeff

The price difference may be a wash. The cost in consumables to run a Laser may be cheaper than a water jet, but the cost of the machine is higher. I'd expect the laser to out perform the water jet in terms of speed for the proper rating. I'd guess at least 6-10 minutes run time with a 40kpsi jet. Maybe 2-3 minutes or less on a 3kw Laser. It would be a swag to think Plasma could come in between those times, but the machine is not that much cheaper than the jet. The control systems can be nearly identical.

At around 1/4", I would not expect the tolerances to be much different between the three options, but the edge finish and condition will be something to contend with if critical.

DC

i mean if it is a product that I want to make i'll work for free ya know? So yes my labor is cheap...

The thing I think the rest of the guy's are offering is investment to market. If you had an established outlet with about a thousand dollars in parts to sell. The market demand might make it more realistic to spend the effort making punch style tooling. Spending a thousand dollars of your free time as a hip shot on your first punching die attempt might gain you nothing further to promote, cept more time and money to get it right the second or third try without anything sold.

It is good advise, but not what you may wish to hear. This economics of business is as valuable a lesson as your time learning to create the tooling. You can make both pay off down the road.

DC

not sure about that on 1/4 inch plate.

A guy I know took me through his plant awhile ago - bunch of 5000 W lasers that do up will do up to 1". The rapid traverse is something like 8000 ipm!!! iirc its magentic linear bearings - seeing the gantry on that thing fly towards at that speed is almost frightening!

The biggest mistake someone starting their own business can make is the assumption that their time is worthless (ie - free). It is a sure-fire way to make a business fail.

That is why Banks will not let you do that in a business plan - your time must be worth a certain rate. You need to figure that into your costs.

Let me ask you this, what happens if you spend all this time (and material/money) making a die for this part - and you don't sell anything? Is it worse than if you spent $200 having the parts laser-cut - and then not selling any?

The biggest mistake someone starting their own business can make is the assumption that their time is worthless (ie - free). It is a sure-fire way to make a business fail.

That is why Banks will not let you do that in a business plan - your time must be worth a certain rate. You need to figure that into your costs.

Let me ask you this, what happens if you spend all this time (and material/money) making a die for this part - and you don't sell anything? Is it worse than if you spent $200 having the parts laser-cut - and then not selling any?

I am pretty sure I can sell these parts but I wnat to make them myself... I want to learn how to make them... I can cnc them up but that won't be cost efficient...

A guy I know took me through his plant awhile ago - bunch of 5000 W lasers that do up will do up to 1". The rapid traverse is something like 8000 ipm!!! iirc its magentic linear bearings - seeing the gantry on that thing fly towards at that speed is almost frightening!

Not 5000w that I know of, but the rapid travel is around 10,000 ipm, IF we are talking about the same machine. I don't know of anyone else producing linear motor lasers like this! (http://www.e-ci.com/success/lasers_rubin.html)

If you can....watch the feature avoidance video. 6.9meg, but it shows the speed these things cut at. I think the rate a few years ago was 100 1/4" holes in 60 seconds through .06 material.

DC

The guy had just bought some of these and was showing off, oops, demonstrating them. they were impressive.

http://www.trumpf.com/scripts/redirect2.php?domain=www.us.trumpf.com&nr=31&content=31.tcl3050.html

the ipm figure they give is combined x/y, whereas i think its 8000 along one axis.

Very impressive!

I did not realize anyone was offering 5KW lasers let alone linear motors besides CI. I've been out of that industry for 6 years.

I hope they make better lasers than some of the BP clones I have seen with their name plate. :p

Maybe that was just TRUMP without the F. :eek:

DC

well as far as high speed lasers go, I've never been in the biz - I was just a like a googoo eyed grade school kid on a plant tour. The only thing other thing I know about trumpf was that they're german.

I'm used to the thinking of german machine tool makes as high end stuff - then again the politicaly correct peeps would say that was a racist remark and the germans have every right and would be more than able to make low budg chicom bport knock-off crap if they wanted :eek: :D

well as far as high speed lasers go, I've never been in the biz - I was just a like a googoo eyed grade school kid on a plant tour. The only thing other thing I know about trumpf was that they're german.

I'm used to the thinking of german machine tool makes as high end stuff - then again the politicaly correct peeps would say that was a racist remark and the germans have every right and would be more than able to make low budg chicom bport knock-off crap if they wanted :eek: :D

Giving credit where credit is due is hardly racist. They earned their pride in making great tools over the years. Look at Japan and Taiwan and how far they have come even in the last 20-30 years. I think China is a bit envious, but rather than compete......

I wish I could have been there googoo eyed along with ya! Even with as many plants as I have seen in my years of field service. I never get tired of seeing new places.

DC

Many times I am in awe of some of the older equipment, and I tour as many places that will allow me in their doors!

One of the most impressive things is seeing an aluminum rolling mill take a 60,000 pound ingot and cold roll it into 1/4" plate. It puts the steel mils to shame as far as speed (duh - the material is easier to shape).

AGFM (an Austrian machine builder) built a linear motor, ultrasonic knife cutting machine in about 1994 or 1995 that cut Kevlar and carbon pre-pregs at rediculous speeds without cutting through the backing paper - over the entire table. That was absolutely incredible. I believe that machine was sold to Boeing or Sikorski. They could also cut a stack of 24oz triaxial fiberglass cloth 3" thick - about 50 layers - every filament was cut.

Guys - do me a favor and post up a link to a laser house with a 5000W laser, please. I don't want to visit - I may want them to quote 1/4" aluminum parts. I have exhausted all of my local resources and I haven't had to play this game for almost two years. The most powerful laser in my area is 3500W and he will not cut my parts for me anymore - says it tears up his equipment and he would rather not continue.

Anyway - since the thread went to pasture I thought I would chime in with this useless information. Thanks for playing along.

By the way - I started a new thread. It was inspired by this discussion.

Sorry about the hijack.

Scott

company is royal laser - sent you a pm