Looking for VFD and a 2 hp, 3 phase motor for Milling machine CNC conversion. Does anyone have sugestions of a good place to purchase these items? Any Canadian suppliers? Thanks for the help.

Regards

Willyb

http://web5.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/AC_Drives_-z-_Motors

If you want both motor and drive, in Canada Pamensky carry WEG. http://www.pamensky.com/
Al.

http://web5.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/AC_Drives_-z-_Motors

The SJ100 Hitachi Sensorless Vector drives are very, very nice for the money. Single-phase input with 3-phase output up to 3HP. I have a 3HP SJ100 that has different vendor's name on the front, but it's the same drive. It's allocated to be installed on a cabinet saw or perhaps a smaller Bridgeport mill. I also have a 1/2HP L100 drive to run a 1/2HP Marathon BlackMax motor (running my house fan in the attic so I get true variable-speed and soft-start), also sourced through a different vendor, but they are the same units.

I don't recognize the manufacturer of the other drives on AD's page, but I could find out if you really wanted to know whose drives they really are. I used to work for an electrical manufacturer that supplies Automation Direct and still have many contacts at my former employer.


Weg motors are great motors! If I was going to have to part with my own money on a motor, I'd buy a Weg. Just MHO.

Thanks for the help guys. Does anyone know of a good place to purchase inverter ready motors at a decent price? Drives Warehouse have great prices on VFD's but their motors are very pricy. .

Boilermakr
Any leads on a good place to pick up a 3 phase motor in the 2 hp range?
I wonder how long an ordinary 3 phase motor will last on a VFD?

In regards to VFD's, what is the difference between the Hitachi L100 and L200 ? Not much difference in price $36.00 I think I will likely go with the L100. Any advice either way.

Thanks for the help.

Willyb

Thanks for the help guys. Does anyone know of a good place to purchase inverter ready motors at a decent price? Drives Warehouse have great prices on VFD's but their motors are very pricy. .

Boilermakr
Any leads on a good place to pick up a 3 phase motor in the 2 hp range?
I wonder how long an ordinary 3 phase motor will last on a VFD?

In regards to VFD's, what is the difference between the Hitachi L100 and L200 ? Not much difference in price $36.00 I think I will likely go with the L100. Any advice either way.

Thanks for the help.

Willyb

The insulation on the windings in inverter-duty motors is better so your less likely to short them out, but as long as you keep your motor leads as short as possible and don't routinely run the motor less than 50% of rated nameplate speed, then a standard motor will (essentially) last as long as an inverter duty motor. It's a little more complicated than that, but for basic applications, it's fine.

Let's put it this way, I would spend more money to buy a good standard motor, than pay less for a cheap, imported "inverter-duty" motor. Motors fail because of voltage spikes that burn through the insulation and dead short the motor; or the bearings fail causing the rotor to lock, which then burns out the windings. Keep the bearings greased and try to minimize voltage surges and spikes and they can last a long time.

My preference is Weg followed by Marathon. No hard data to back it up, just a personal preference and observations of motors on all kinds of industrial equipment over the past ten years or so. GE makes some nice motors too, but they have a very broad offering so it gets a little tricky to find the nice ones. Many of the other brands are probably just brand-labeled units made by Marathon, GE, or Weg.

I know the L100 is a straight Volt/HZ drive, I'll have to check the L200, it may just be a larger frame size of the L100. If you can afford the $70 difference, I'd buy the SJ100 SV drive. You can add a hall effect feedback sensor later and get really tight speed control with the SV drive.

I don't know any distributors for motors in Canada, but I do have a couple of contacts in Alberta that might be able to help. Where are you in Canada?

EDIT* - I didn't see the L200 drive on their site, where did you find it?

Found it on Hitachi's site. It appears to have a few PLC functions built in and also has a smaller footprint for the packaging and conveyor industry. I'll look into it, but I bet the basic drive specs are the same. If they are the same, save the coin and buy a better motor with the difference because I don't think you'll benefit from the added features with CNC unless you plan to change the drive parameters via ModBus. This, again, adds complexity that I don't think you're looking for at the moment.

http://www.dealerselectric.com/

Not canadian but might be an option.
I have 1/2 hp vfd 115vac in 220 out...might consider letting it go for the right price ;)

Also Baldor make inverter duty motors and they can be had just about anywhere in Canada.
Al.

Thanks Al, Baldor was the other motor manufacturer I couldn't think of...

IMHO, Baldor and Marathon are neck-in-neck, tied for #2 behind Weg.

Toshiba also makes drives and motors, but I don't know how easy they are to find in Canada.

http://www.dealerselectric.com/

Not canadian but might be an option.
I have 1/2 hp vfd 115vac in 220 out...might consider letting it go for the right price ;)


Hi trubleshtr

Yes I notice this web site. Fairly good prices for a motor and VFD package. $425.00 for 2 hp package. Sent them an email asking some question on Shipping costs, etc. and never received an answer. I hate when companies do this. Why put on a sale if you are not going to support it? Makes you wonder if you would want to deal with a Company like this. If they don't want to talk to you before the sale they certainly won't want to after?

Willyb

Do you have pricing on the Hitachi L100 vs. L200? They're both still Volt/Hertz drives, but the L200 does add improved PID control, the RS-485 port for ModBus, logic input terminals and timer output terminals.

I guess I should have asked these questions earlier:

I assume this drive is for the spindle and the goal is to maintain precise speed control of the spindle?

What material to you plan to mill and what is the largest tooling you plan to use?

Hi boilermakr

The Hitachi VFD's are from Drives Warhouse.

http://www.driveswarehouse.com/index.php

The L100 sells for $285.00 and the L200 is $249.00

The reason for going with the VFD is so the cnc control software can control the speed of the spindle motor.

Most of my machining will be in aluminum and the largest end mill cutter will likely be a 1/2"

Willyb

If you already have a 3ph motor on the machine, you may not need to replace it, I have not had a failure yet on any of the conversions I have done.
If you already have, or buy a motor, if it is a four pole motor they can usually be run up to 120hz, which essentially doubles their base speed.
Also if the motor supply is run with separate conductors in flex conduit for e.g. pull the wiring out and twist the three conductors together as tight as possible, run the ground wire with them but not twisted together, this help eliminates radiated energy caused by the switching pulses.
Some manufacturers also recommend line chokes both in the line and motor leads, these are an extra expense but apart from noise suppression they act to protect both the drive and the motor.
Al.

Hy Guys

Need some help. I am trying to figure out what rpm motor I should be ordering for my application. The spindle is going to be belt driven. Most of my machining will be with no bigger than a 1/2" end mill but I will be doing some fly cutting with those insert type cutters. This will require lower rpms and more torque. I was planning to install a set of double step pulleys for a couple different speed ranges.

My question is what rpm motor should I be looking for? If you go with a higher speed motor do you loose low end torque. What about a 1800 rpm motor? This sort of looks like middle of the road?

Thanks again for your help.

Willyb

What about a 1800 rpm motor? This sort of looks like middle of the road?


That is what I meant by a 4 pole motor, a two pole motor runs at something under 3600 and you would be virtually committed to 60 hz.
If you use a four pole motor you can extent the rpm x2 by running the VFD up to 120hz max, they are usually balanced well enough to run at that rpm.
BTW with a non-synchronous motor (standard induction motor) you can never reach line frequency due to 'slip'.
Al.

Out of testing many vfds my associates and i found that ABB drives outperformed all the competition. Including Danfuss, Allen Bradley, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, and a few others. No encoder needed when ran in vector mode. ABB inverter duty motors are also great performers, but a invertor duty lincoln electric will also do the job for less money. All the competitors had there engineers and salesmen working on our zero speed control situation and we found the ABB's ACS800 to be number 1. If following another motor encoders are recommended. If you use this drive make sure to take advantage of these parameters, dcmag, autotune run, and the secret 97 group parameter. Email me for the passcode (sorry they don't just give it to anybody).

If you use this drive make sure to take advantage of these parameters, dcmag, autotune run, and the secret 97 group parameter. Email me for the passcode (sorry they don't just give it to anybody).
Whats the idea behind secret parameters? :rolleyes:
Al.

I don't know why they made it secret. But, its there and its not in the book. After i called ABB more times than i can count about tuning my drives they told me the pass code to open those parameters. They're all zero speed settings that when tweaked make a world of differance (if you need precise torque and control at zero speed). Sorry, not my choice to make it a non-advertised feature. Just letting people know it's there and helps a great deal. But, like i said this is albout precision control (with a 3ph. AC motor of course).

My VFD and 2hp 3phase arrived today.

Lafert makes an 80 frame 2hp 3400rpm motor that bolted right up. I'll post up the result of the install.

Hi Owen,

If you use a 3,400 rpm motor will that not give a maximum motor output of 6,800 with the VFD at 120 Hz and isn' that to fast for the motor.

Regards Phil


My VFD and 2hp 3phase arrived today.

Lafert makes an 80 frame 2hp 3400rpm motor that bolted right up. I'll post up the result of the install.

Hi Owen,

If you use a 3,400 rpm motor will that not give a maximum motor output of 6,800 with the VFD at 120 Hz and isn' that to fast for the motor.

Regards Phil

Hey Phil, yes theoretically it would. The VFD I'm using will go as high as 240hz but the maximum is programmable. So I'll set it to 60 hz or some value higher if I want to over drive the motor [once I establish a safe maximum RPM for my hardware] I can increase the max Hz or use a preset value selection. The reading I've done indicates a 150% over drive is reasonable and common.

Once I eliminate my gear box, opting for a belt drive system. I'll only be limited by the max RPM capabilities of the motor.

Owen

Hi again Owen,

You will also have a potential limit on maximum spindle speed of course. Also I thought that there was a limit on the % speed reduction that can be achieve due to the motor over heating. How do you intend to eliminate/bypass the gearbox. Sub 100 rpm is needed for slitting saws and face cutters etc. I think there is a limit on space for belt drive and still transmit full power, due to the necessary pulley diameters for low rpms.

Best Regards
Phil (chair)

Hey Phil, yes theoretically it would. The VFD I'm using will go as high as 240hz but the maximum is programmable. So I'll set it to 60 hz or some value higher if I want to over drive the motor [once I establish a safe maximum RPM for my hardware] I can increase the max Hz or use a preset value selection. The reading I've done indicates a 150% over drive is reasonable and common.

Once I eliminate my gear box, opting for a belt drive system. I'll only be limited by the max RPM capabilities of the motor.

Owen

Hi Phil

RPM is fully variable from 0 to the maximum of the motor. Full rated hp is produced at all rpm ranges as the VFD drives the motor at full volts at all times [there is no voltage drop like in a single phase set up]

RPM is controlled by adjusting the Hz out put. There will be no problems in this area with this set up.

I'll post up some photos and such when it is all up and runing.

Owen

We'll my SJ200 unit arrived today from Drivewarehouse looks sweet! I hate 200 page manuals in 6 pico! Invertor rated 1.5hp 3 phase motor sould arrive in next few days out of pocket cost $500.00 replacement system RF45. Motor cost $179, SJ200 cost 291.00 I went for the Vertorless control version. Front Panel detaches and can be remoted with a 8 pin cable I'll see if it is a local item or order.

Ken

Hi Ken

Where did you purchase the Invertor rated Motor?

Willy

Hi Ken

Where did you purchase the Invertor rated Motor?

Willy


I used the Lesson Number from Industrial Hobby site and ordered from a local Electric Motor supplier. Number is for an Invertor rated motor commonly used for machine tools according too guy I ordered from. They ordered it out of LA it is a Mertic Motor of course. So a 3 phase American 1.5 horse motor gets delivered in about 3 days. Of course UPS killed the first one second one is supposed to show tomorrow!
I also bought the IH kit which should show some time next month. I will be doing a project and posting on board. Actual project is linear scale integration and comparison versus encoder positioning in CNC. Or DRO table positioning instead of Encoder shaft positioning. I have had my DRO System Manufacturer modify and add a data output capabilities.

Hi again Owen,

Is it possible to run a motor at 1 rpm. I was of the impression that over heating would be a problem below say 10 hz. which would unecessarily limit low end speed reduction on a 3,600 rpm motor. Are you not wasting capability if you limit your 240 hz VFD at 150% overdrive, which is 90 hz. Why is an 1,800 rpm motor not a better choice, what am I missing?

Best Regards
Phil (chair)

Hi Phil

RPM is fully variable from 0 to the maximum of the motor. Full rated hp is produced at all rpm ranges as the VFD drives the motor at full volts at all times [there is no voltage drop like in a single phase set up]

RPM is controlled by adjusting the Hz out put. There will be no problems in this area with this set up.

I'll post up some photos and such when it is all up and runing.

Owen

Low RPM or down to zero is only possible with flux-vector VFD designed for this purpose, also if regular motor is used, external fan is recommended as internal fan becomes useless at low rpm.
For max rpm, If a Vector control motor is used, the max rpm is usually indicated.
If using a non-vector (standard) motor, it depends on how well the motor is balanced etc. The max I use a standard motor in is around 3500 rpm, which limits a 2 pole motor to around 60hz or a 4 pole motor to 120hz.
Al.

Hi again Owen,

Is it possible to run a motor at 1 rpm. I was of the impression that over heating would be a problem below say 10 hz. which would unecessarily limit low end speed reduction on a 3,600 rpm motor. Are you not wasting capability if you limit your 240 hz VFD at 150% overdrive, which is 90 hz. Why is an 1,800 rpm motor not a better choice, what am I missing?

Best Regards
Phil (chair)

In my case A geared Mill/Drill has 6 speeds from 70 to 2000 rpm at spindle with a stock 3450 rpm motor. At 50% up or down with a VFD it is 35 to 3,000 rpm at spindle without stressing the motor or system.
A lower speed motor provides no advantage and creates problems with upper end speed.

As with many things it is not what you can do. Rather what you should do!

VFD controler setup can give you years of service. Though it has the flexibility to destroy your equipment with a bit of playing around.

Ken