I am looking for a high-speed router for 3d work. Ez-router (www.ez-router.com) claims 500ipm on 3d parts and 800ipm on rapids. It basically looks like a rack and pinion drive with steppers. I currently have a practical cnc (www.practicalcnc.com) router, but even when commanded to cut the 3d parts at 100ipm, it actually achieves around 25ipm. I guess I am timing linear inches, but I can't imagine going up and down a total of .1" in small slopes creates that much more distance. Thanks.

Rob

Are you running their control software? If so, is it possible to run your machine using Mach3 to see if their is a performance increase?

It is a WinCnc controller. It came with a pci card for my pc and then that goes to their box. I'm pretty sure it's step/dir, so I guess I could try MachCNC. The cards it uses are dedicated and fast, so I doubt using MachCNC will drive the control box any faster. I'll certainly look into that. I think it's the limit of the steppers. I think ShopBots use the alpha step plus motors from Oriental Motor company. They are fast and expensive, since you need to purchase the controller with their motor. Thanks.

Rob

I'm thinking the software can't look ahead fast enough, which would cause it to run slowly.

I'll certainly look into it. It would be a great no-cost upgrade, other than MachCNC for $149. Thanks.

Rob

In the world of Cnc often times you get what you pay for. I am talking about both control software and cnc tables.
If you are looking for a good solution, you may take a look at ShopSabre.

They use Wincnc motion control and rams 3d software. I would put this machine solution up against any other in this price range.

has anyone used the Ez-Router. Planning to buy one. Any objective views? Any views on BobcadCAM software.

I just got back from both shops. I travelled from Phoenix, Arizona just to see some machines. I was impressed with the both owners and their machines. I plan to order a 4 X 8 Shop Sabre machine this week. Be prepared for "sticker Shock", though. Remember.....You get what you pay for.
After looking all over for a medium-duty machine to get started with, I think Shop Sabre is probably the best deal. The guys at E-Z Router were good too, but I didn't like the rack and pinion drives with cog belts and the lack of cable trays. They were about $6,000.00 under Shop Sabre for the same configuration, though.

Thanks for the feedback Svelte, but I know nothing about cog belts and cable trays. Could you explain, as I am a novice in this arena. I hve already committed to EZRouter and cannot change my committment at this late stage.

If you look closely at the pictures from E-Z Router, you will see that the wiring for the gantry is just wrapped in flex-tubing and drpaed across the machine. Go to the other sites (even eBay) and you will see what I call a "link tray" setup that contains the wiring and keeps it from being kinked or pinched when the gantry is in motion. The guys at E-Z Router told me that you have to watch the wiring as they have had operators get the wiring caught. When this happens, it can tear out the wiring or cut it which could result in short circuits. That could put you down for quite some time and cost you money for new control circuits.

Depending on who you talk to, the belts can be good or bad. The belt reduction setup results in higher definition, but belts can break. This also can be a good thing if you happen to hit a fixture. A $10.00 belt is a lot cheaper than a gear drive. However, the guys at Shop Sabre claim that they have never lost a gear drive in an accident like this.

I am kind of confused about all of this myself. My area of expertise is in metal machining on large commercial equipment. I have heard good things about both E-Z Router and Shop Sabre. I have met with them both and they seem very honest. I just liked the way the Shop Sabre looked better. It seemed more robust. However it is costing about $6,000.00 more than a similarly equipped E-Z Router model. I am hoping that I get what I am paying for.

Let me know how your unit works out for you.

hey Svelte, thanks for the info. I took a look at the picture of Ezrouter and saw just what you said. I figure I might have to find a way to correct that cable setup. here is a picture for anyone who might need to know what we are talking about.

Here is another picture of the cabling on the EZ Router. This cabling setup on the "Y" axis was what bothered me the most. I still think they make a pretty good machine.

Finally, after as many machines as we have sold somebody speaks on the zone. This is great guys, I am glad you like our machine. I do want to clear up a few things though. First, I do not want to nit pick. But, what was said is we had a customer that dropped a piece of 2" plate steel on the cables running from the control to the gantry. This severed the line and caused some timely and costly repairs. Even if it were in wire track, this would have been costly and maybe more damaging. But all of our machines are available with e chain wire ways; matter of fact, if you look at the machine on our home page it has e chain wire ways. By not making you buy e chain, because it is the only way we sell it, we save the end user money. And this is the only incidence known to us of problems with the cabling. Thanks for the feed back we are always open to ideas for improvement.

Have a Great Day
Daniel Berry

You can see what a class act the guys at EZ-Router are by their reply to my post. We did not discuss cable tracks when I was there and I was not aware that they were offered.
Now if someone could just give me definitive answer about the upside/downside to the rack-and-pinion vs. ball-screw debate I could FINALLY order a machine. I can see where the latest poll here shows a large margin in favor of ball-screws, but then I just read where you have to worry about "whip" in longer screws. Since I am ordering an 8 foot table, I now have that to worry about.
Can anyone tell me a REAL horror story about either? I will be machining wood mostly and .0001 tolerances are not going to be needed.
Any help from people on the forum or even a manufacturer would be greatly appreciated.
My biggest problem is that I have narrowed my search to either EZ-Router or Shop Sabre. They are both class acts, in my opinion. They both have professional-looking production facilities. Neither one slams other manufacturers and both organizations seem very knowledgeable. EZ-Router is the cheaper of the two, but price is not everything. Both machines are robust and well-built. I guess it just comes down to ball-screw vs. rack-and-pinion.

HELLLLP!!!

Okay. Since no one could answer my question about ball screw vs. rack and pinion, I just went with the survey results.
I placed an order for a Shop Sabre yesterday. I got quite a few bells and whistles and the order ended up right at $20,000.00 with the shipping and crating to Phoenix, AZ.
I should have the machine in 4 to 6 weeks. I would love to get in contact with someone who purchased an EZ-Router so that we could compare notes here in the forums about our experiences with our machines. Maybe it would help someone like myself with little CNC experience to make an informed decision.
I would also still like to hear from someone who purchased one of the Chinese imports and see how they are doing. They sure are cheaper up front. It would be interesting to compare notes about their actual operational costs and problems.
Hope to hear from someone on this.

Well I was really enjoying that thread and was anxious to read the punch line and it ended, like watching an episode of Soprano's and them leaving you with a cliff hanger! I thought it was an unforseen twist when you switched to a shop sabre. But now I want to know what you think of it?! Did you have to send them your computer? Does it meet all of your expectations? I am in the same boat that you were in, I started looking at the shop sabre and then decided to go more industrial and looked at camtech.ca and multicam, and then over to thermwood, once I hit the $100K mark I decided this was crazy and WAY more then I needed and now I am back to the three above.

Any suggestions?

Svelte, you cant leave me hanging, how is it? Are you happy? Did you have to send them the computer?

Svelte, I think you made a good decision.

Browsing through their website, I get the impression that EZRouter is a fab shop with little experience in actual machining. Certain components of CNC machines really need to be machined from solid materials IMO, rather than thin plate (motor mounts), and angle iron(linear rails). The THK linear rails and carriages on the Shop Sabre are easily worth $1.5K more, because that's how much more they actually cost. EZrouter appears to be using 3/16" angle iron with $10 V-rollers. Not your best choice for a precision machine.

Zumba, thanks for the reply. Do you own a shop sabre?

Well I thought I would put in my 2 cents. Yes I am new and this is my first post but I don't mean too step on any toes so be nice :P

I'm in the same boat now as many others on this topic. I have narrowed my choices down to EZ-Router and ShopSabre. I have spoken with both companies and can say I get a more professional feelings from the guys at shopsabre. I've never had to wait to get ahold of those guys, and they didn't seem bothered by my 20 question routine and hour long conversation. I enjoyed speaking with EZ-router as well but I got the impression they are just a couple guys workin out of a shed building CNC machines (Nothing wrong with that because who of us are not that guy ;) ) But it took several unanswered phone calls and emails to finally get in touch with these guys, all of which were placed during PRIME business hours. So I would say that put my first impression with EZ-router on a shaky foot. After all, if you cannot get a hold of these guys to buy a machine. Who is to say support will be there when it breaks down? But I cannot speak all bad, after that first impression EZ-router has been prompt with information and readily available.

I guess it comes down to Ballscrew VS. Rack.... A ballscrew is more accurate (when setup properly under the right circumstances) Though a rack has faster speeds.... One good , one bad, one good, one bad. After exhausting each companies reference list I could not find one person who bought one machine had a bad experience then switched to the other machine. Everyone was happy with their machine but at the same time no one had experience with the competitors machine. Again back to square one.

I finally came to the fact that there probably is not a right or wrong answer on which is the better of the machines. There is way too many variables in the fact of what you will use the machine for, what materials you will cut, what type of bit you will use ect.... So I relized it was going to come down to my research on the subject and what will be right for me.

I started by calling more expensive machine manufactures that build your $100k machines ment for 24/7 production use....Surprisingly enough after reading all the hype about ballscrews I found quite a few of the higher priced manufacturers to be using rack and pinion, as well as ballscrew. So again I was at a brick wall. So I had decided to get a professional opinion from my father (Robotic engineer for general motors) from our discussion, it again comes down to what you will be using the machine for. Ballscrews can hold a tighter tolerance than a rack but we are talking differences of .005 - .001 seems like alot yes but in woodworking and cabinet making is it really that big of a difference? In woodworking the most common tolerance would be 1/16th of an inch to 1/32nd.. which when converted comes to .0625 and .03125 so in perspective the .001 -.005 should be irrelevant in a woodworking machine.

Now the belts, The timing belts on the EZ-router caused for some concern. But the more a thought about the more I relized that the timing belts used on an ez-router may be one of those simple yet brilliant ideas. Timing belts are used in our everyday lives.......for very accurate operations.........almost all new cars use timing belts to control the timing on an engine. Seems to me that timing of an engine would have to be pretty accurate....if a belt can do this in a machine we all use everyday then it must be accurate enough for a cnc-router? I also like the fact that if something did happen, that belt is going to break rather then a gear drive. Belts are cheaper and readily available 7 days a week in my area.

Cable management-Irrelevant I believe, any problems in the cabling can be fixed.

Table- Both machines offer solid welded tables

Speed- Again extremely variable, unless you plan on purchasing a 5hp spindle with your machine I believe this would be irrelevant, a 3.25 router in 3/4 inch material probably isn't going to do much more then 250ipm - 300ipm

I have heard some people say that the shopsabre is just a "heavier" machine. I find that funny, because both have shipping weights of 1500lbs.

Ill tell you something I really do like about EZ-router.....no hidden costs. The price on the website includes everything from the motor to the table. Almost everyone else hides the cost of the legs, I guess to remove some of the original sticker shock?

You definately get what you pay for we can all vouch for that.....but do you need the extra stuff your paying for between these machines? Remember the more expensive the machine the more expensive to maintain........

I would say the shopsabre is more accurate with its machined rails and ballscrews....but we are talking accuracy of thousandths of an inch and if all I'm going to be doing is woodwork in a world where .0625 is acceptable any day of the week do I need to spend the extra $7000.00 to hold an extra .001" of tolerance? I mean honestly for $7000 you could buy a second machine right?

I am sorry for such a long long post but I have alot to say! I am by no means an expert on anything and like many others am struggling between my decision of a cnc-router. I plan to order an EZ-router unless I can find someone with an absolute horror story as to why I shouldn't......


Thanks for reading my novel guys!

PuritanKY

New or not, thank you for your post. You have made some good points, and funny as it may seem we both have done similar research in a similar method. I know have quotes from Thermwood ($100k area) MultiCam (60k area) Camtech (60k Area) Gerber Sabre ( 50k area) TechnoCNC ($35k area) Shop Sabre, Shop Bot, and EZ-Router. Shop Bot and EZ-Router look to have a lot in common, though when you talk to the Shop Bot People they share no opinion claiming EZ-Router is new on the scene. EZ-Router uses mach3 cnc win/controller, Shopbot uses their own, and Shop Sabre runs WINcnc, a controller I found on the Camtech.

When I went to the distributor to look at the camtech (my second sighting, the first was at awfs in vegas) I was pretty impressed with the ease of use of the controller. I can only imagine mach3 is easy to use as well, I just never actually seeen it run a router. The Sabre looks more industry standard all around, from the gantry layout down to the controller. I do feel more likely to go with the Shop Sabre for that very reason. It is also the only machine in the class that has an option of tool changers, although I do not need one.

What it is coming down to for me is, what am I really going to use this machine for? (wood working and sign work). How much do I think the machine will be run? (realistically 4 hours a week at best, I don't get out to the shop enough as it is let alone running the machine). So I decided money matters, a position I normally do not take when it comes to my tools.

As far as accuracy, I under stand that more is better, after all I am an American, but we are talking about accuracy and repeatablity that I can not see on my tape measure. Worst case, with most inacurate router on the market my accuracy will improve to a rediculous extent.

In summation, Shop Sabre is my current front runner.

Sorry that I haven't posted recently. I DID receive my Shop Sabre about three weeks ago. I travelled to their production facility (My second trip there) to witness the startup and testing of my machine.
I was NOT disappointed. I sent them the control computer and they had it loaded and ready to run my machine when I arrived. The machine started up and ran flawlessly. They made a few software adjustments and everything went along smoothly. They had the machine crated and ready for shipment the next afternoon.
These guys REALLY impressed me. They are VERY knowledgeable and are straight-forward with their answers. They deliver as promised.
I WILL post some pictures from their shop in the next couple of days. Unfortunately, my wife is interviewing for a job in Loveland, CO next week so I have decided to leave my machine in the crate until we know something for sure. It makes no sense to uncrate and setup the machine just to tear it down in a month or two to move it across the country.
Jim (the owner of Shop Sabre) told me that he expects me to call him several times during the setup of the machine. He says that is normal and that the tech support is included. He says he rarely gets calls after the first month or so.
When I was there they were finishing up work on 6 other machines. Five of the machines were going to Black and Decker for tool testing and one was being shipped to a company in Great Britain. These guys must be doing something right.
After looking at E-Z Router, Shop Bot, Shop Sabre and several of the Chinese imports, I feel confident that I made the right decision.
The folks at E-Z Router are VERY nice people, but as someone else pointed out, they run out of a small shop. I just got the feeling that some things were being overlooked in the design of their machine. However, if price were my only consideration, I would have purchased a machine from them.
I paid quite a bit more for the Shop Sabre, but feel that it will stand the test of time. For woodworking, the Shop Sabre tolerances will be just fine and I could afford the forth axis and a second Z-axis spindle. If I had purchased a machine from one of the majors, I would have spent $25K to $75K more.
I'll work on getting those pictures up. Sorry for the long post.

Well I am glad you are a happy with your machine, it only solidifies my decision a bit more. Anxiously waiting the pictures, I honestly do not have the time to go to their facility but I think I better make it.

I don't own a shop sabre. I did, at one time, own a Shopbot PRT.

For most woodworking tasks, your success will really boil down to everything other than the machine. In order of priority
1.) Software
2.) Work Holddown (vacuum)
3.) Spindle

A slow but rigid, 150IPM machine, with great software, will run circles around a Komo with crappy software.

As for 4th axis capabilities, you can do some basic rotary carving, pretty much stuff you'd do on a Legacy ornamental mill.... however, true 4-axis carving, such as making a cabriole leg with ball and claw foot, is out of the realm of most router users. The software required to draw that kind of stuff costs as much as the router itself.

Hmmm I did some more digging and I learned some interesting things. I guess if your looking at price you will need to look beyond the sticker price of the base machine. Comparing a shopsabre to an ezrouter both with the basics added and a 4th axis comes to Shopsabre $16500 EZ-router $13700 Still a little difference in price but not much... $2800, I noticed that ezrouter charges nearly double for the 4th axis than what shopsabre does and almost double on shipping and crating.. (shopsabre doesnt charge a crating fee if the machine is purchased with the table and shipped as one piece)

I then compared both companies leasing affiliate.... Shopsabre offers better rates than ezrouter when comparing a monthly payment on the machines listed above payments come to

Shopsabre - $340 month
Ezrouter - $310 month

Each with the $1 buyout

So if leased there is only an $1800 sticker difference between the two.

I guess you would only be saving any real money if you purchased with cash?

Also I compared shopsabre,ezrouter,shopbot togather with all the trimming and each machine was easliy in the 35k range with as little as $1000 separating them. Its funny how the companies that offer a cheaper priced base machine charge nearly twice as much for options to be added on.......They getcha comin and goin!

:P

interesting. Thanks for the research. What is really something is the quote price is not always the best deal. Every company except EZ-Router offered a further discount of their quote when asked. Techno Inc www.techno-isel.com has come back with a pretty nice offer and may be the one I choose to go with. If they would drop another $1000.00 I would have my router. :)

You are exactly on the money. My Shop Sabre ended up costing about $24,000 with shipping and all of the extras. A 5-tool auto changer would have added another $11,000. I opted for a second spindle instead. That only cost about another $1,000.
Since Shop Sabre offers a 5 foot wide machine, they only use the 5 foot gantry. That means that with my two spindles set only 9 inches apart (the closest they could be set), I can reach both sides of my 4 foot table with both spindles. That will allow me to chuck up two tools and let the machine run without my intervention for a while. I can also spread the spindles later if I want to do side-by-side work two at a time.
I ordered my 4th axis when I went to their shop for my startup and they were out of stock. They shipped the unit two weeks later and the shipping from Minneapolis to Phoenix was only $30.00, packaging included.

One thing that I forgot to mention before was that all of the other machines that I looked at, with the exception of the Chinese machines, used extruded aluminum on their gantrys. Shop Sabre is 100% steel. I paid extra to get another 2 inches of Z-Axis movement on both spindles. That gives me a total Z-Axis of 10 inches. They had built a custom machine for one of the "foam" guys with a 12 inch Z-Axis, but would not build one for me because they had not had time to build one and run it to make sure that there would not be too much sway in the gantry on harder materials. It just goes to show that they really check their designs before they sell you something.

By the way....The one downside to the screw instead of the rack and pinion is that there is a beam that runs under the table. If you want to place a long piece through a hole in the table, you are very limited with the screw setup because of this. I still prefer it, though.

I plan to use the 4th axis unit to machine gun stocks. I have had a lot of requests for this. I have two gun dealers that are badgering me to get going. Jim (at Shop Sabre) says that he has produced this kind of work with great success. He also says that custom bow parts are quite profitable.

Svelte, which CAD/CAM package are you using to do the 4th axis toolpathing?

Ordered my Techno-Isel 4'x8' Router. Should be here in 3-4 weeks. will keep you all posted.

I bought a PRT ShopBot in 2000 and realised over the years that I could just as well build a second machine myself, which has since been done. I am simply curious to know from the guys in this thread what are the major factors that made you decide against the ShopBot in favour of a couple of other brands?

Sorry I let the thread die.... I chose the Techno becuase of product line and, well they cam down to my price point. I have had it now for half a year I guess and it has been great. Not to mention the support. I have called Techno on things that really had little to do with their product and more to do with a project I was working on and they took on the task of helping me through details and even offered suggestions on future work to streamline the production.

Great guys and great products..... Unlike the Shop Sabre they have a full comercial line of routers.

Hello i'm going to put my two cents worth in here :)
My EZ-Router will be here in the next few days it's on the truck on the way here :D
i got a 5'x10',10hp vacum bed,5hp spindle
20k delivered

I will let you know how it works soon. The Guys at EZ-Router are great so far
helpful and ez to deal with

Gregg

Hope you like the router Iam looking at the 4*8 for doing cabinet parts.
What are you useing the router for? And if you dont mind let us know how well you like it after you are set up and running.
Thank Bill

hi
bought the 5x10 router/plasma kit. built a water table for the palsma and a removeable frame for routing. its been running for a couple of weeks now and it has been great. love the rapids. took about 2 hrs to learn to run it with
no previous cnc exp. was hooking up the sensor card and could figure it out, called john walked me right through it. he said that the hypertherm plasma unit's current transformer sometimes causes a miss fire with the torch and shipped me a upgraded one at no cost so that i wouldn't have to deal with the misfire in a middle of a job
bear

Well it's here up and running :)
It's ez to set up had a little burp with the software but John at EZ-router had ne going in a few mins over the phone. so far it's awsome been running a few tests with it on diff. types of metal and Plex. so far works great.

Gregg

hi
bought the 5x10 router/plasma kit. built a water table for the palsma and a removeable frame for routing. its been running for a couple of weeks now and it has been great. love the rapids. took about 2 hrs to learn to run it with
no previous cnc exp. was hooking up the sensor card and could figure it out, called john walked me right through it. he said that the hypertherm plasma unit's current transformer sometimes causes a miss fire with the torch and shipped me a upgraded one at no cost so that i wouldn't have to deal with the misfire in a middle of a job
bear

Could you post a few pictures of your table showing the removable frame?. I'm planning to purchase the same machine and seeing real pictures of the setup would help my decision process. Thanks in advance.

not a problem if i get a break tomorrow i will take some. its real easy. the water table was the hard part. i will go into some detail of what i would do different if i were to build it all over again.
bear

Hello Fellows,

I've been through the same mental process as you fellows and settled on the Ez. I had a Shopbot for about 5 years and the maintenance and poor cuts finally did me in. I made the trip to Ez, looked over their units, and was impressed. They make a solid dependable CNC. Dollar for dollar they may be the best buy on the market.

I bought the 5'X10' with a Colombo spindle. Very very smooth and quiet. It will cut 3D files at 600ipm with ease

The beld drive units are common in the industry, and provide smoother cutting along with speed. Replacement is rare. Their controll software is Mach 3. One of the best.

All this said, I'm sure ShopSabre is a good unit also. I've heard nothing but good things about them. Shopbot isn't in this league. Just read their forum and see. They can't keep em square and maintenance is a big part of the deal.

J.
www.normansignco.com