Hey everyone,

I am a Clemson (SC) student, 22 years old, and am really considering purchasing/building my own CNC router to start up my own small business.

I've been researching for the past few weeks on what I really need to get started. I have a fairly small budget, but am willing to work hard to build what I need.

My idea is to primarily use wood (maybe metals eventually) and design college related nick-nacs to sell at local shops. I have a background in old cars, woodworking, and have operated a local CNC machine.

So, if you only had around 3-4k to start up a small shop, what would you recommend to invest in?

Of course I want the most area for the mony...but, am I insane to think I could acquire a 5 axis setup??

Welcome ClemsonGirl,
These guys are great and can help you out with just about anything.

Again, Welcome to one of the most addictive hobbies around.....LOL

Hawkeye

ClemsonGirl,
You have the right approach. You have a product and want to have the CNC to help you produce the product.

First you need to define the parameters of your needs.

What is the maximum size of your parts?
How complicated are they?
Wood and/or metal might not be compatible with the same machine. You can do wood and aluminum, but not wood and steel. (very well at least.)

Did you look at these machines? http://www.k2cnc.com/KT-2514_detail.asp

They got mixed reviews at first, but seem to be getting better.

Since you want to make a product and are a student, I would recommend you stay away from the do-it-yourself CNC approach. This approach eats up hours of time and could take months to get you to being able to make a viable product. Focus on what your business needs are.

I doubt if you can get a 5 axis machine for you budget numbers. If those are truly your numbers, I assume that they are for the entire shop or are they just for the CNC?

You'll need sanding, painting equipment. Plus a saw or two. It all adds up fast. Router bits, computer, CAD/CAM software, etc,etc.

I'd budget roughly $1500 for misc and the rest for CNC router.

Good luck
Trent

Hmmm.....welcome....what sort of college related knick-knacs....certainly not bong pipes....

i think bong pipes would be a bit difficult to do....espically since most are glass. I would like to do table-tops, valve covers, wood signs, etc.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CNC-Router-Engraver-with-BobCad-Cam-Software_W0QQitemZ7540760176QQcategoryZ57122QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

did a few searches...no results, which prolly means its no good :(

ClemsonGirl...that would be my take...looks like it's made of delrin or some white plastic.

Signs you'll be able to do, table tops (like engraving, marquerty stuff?) doable, valve covers like for automobile engines? While the valve covers are doable...there is alot of material to remove...which is the reason most are cast.

Look at the K2 stuff, also read the local forum on the problems encountered with the K2 machines. Even with the problems...I don't think you can do much better for the price....you just have to be willing/able to address the problems.

Figure out what size of cutting volume you'll need.

5 axis for under $5K......that's a challenge...

Thanks a bunch Viper!

This unit seems to do everything I need, and is low cost...what’s the catch??

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Servo-Taig-cnc-mill-milling-engraver-router-machine_W0QQitemZ7542274099QQcategoryZ12584QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


The valve covers will be engraved with the CNC, not actually produce covers.

Also, I enjoy painting and wanted to begin producing my own figurines. There is just so much you can do with these wonderful machines!! I don’t understand why every kitchen is not without one!

I am starting to read up on the K2 stuff, but what do you think of the eBay auction I found??

TIA!

Hi CG, don't forget to consider software in your budget too. For decent sign or CAM software you are probably looking at $1000, obvioulsy depending on the complexity you need. Just don't make a common mistake and blow all of your cash on the router and using sub-standard software will you cost you in the long run.

Welcome aboard anyhow ;)

This unit seems to do everything I need, and is low cost...what’s the catch??

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Servo-Taig-cnc-mill-milling-engraver-router-machine_W0QQitemZ7542274099QQcategoryZ12584QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I am starting to read up on the K2 stuff, but what do you think of the eBay auction I found??

TIA!

I have bought from that guy before, can't remember what it was but doublechecked my feedback and I didn't have any problems.

That mill seems pretty nice to me. It's mainly for metalworking. The RPM's (10000 MAX) are slow for router bits.

Again, you'll need a computer, cables, and MACH 2 to run this machine. Figure $200 for a used computer, $20 for a parallel cable, and $150 for Mach 2.

The biggest problem with a machine like this is the size 12" x 5.5" isn't much travel. It all depends upon your needs.

If you are doing rotary axis work (figurines), you'll need some fairly sophisticated CAD/CAM software.

If you think that the Taig will allow you to cut the parts you want to do, then I would buy from the manufacturer: taigtools.com

It's a good unit, read the info on the manufacturer's web site. Look at the x, y and z axis and the weight of the unit.

I bought one from this guy for well under $2K but did have to tweak the Xylotek controler myself by adjusting the vref and adding a cooling fan to the case. It has good strong automation direct 276 oz/in steppers and a 4 axis controller with a extra stepper to add a rotary table at a later date. Be selective on your bid and with a bit of sniping I suspect you could save enough to buy that rotatry table + get the stepper adapters from JFettig machines. You might even have enough left over for some tooling.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Taig-cnc-mill-milling-router-NR_W0QQitemZ7541229258QQcategoryZ12584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What are you studying CG? Is it something to do with this field or is this purely a side line for you?

I am studying packaging science (engineering)...this is purely a part time job.

I have spent the last few years building figurines, painting them, and selling off ebay (paid almost 80% of my tuition). Now im ready to really start producing stuff.

Software will be free for me (since im a student), and i have plenty of tools and a spare p4 computer. So, my money is going to a stage, motors, and a router.

I am looking for the following:

x&Y: ~15"+
z: 6+"
would like an additional axis so my life is easier. (im guessing a spindle)

and..ohh...a lathe would be hot as well...boy i could make college chess sets!

the brain is just churning with ideas

ClemsonGirl....well the X and Y axis requirements throw out the Taig. Look at the K2 stuff, can you handle having to fine-tuning how things are mounted?

Viper,

well i *want* the larger, but i just don’t know what I *should* be purchasing...you never know what the next idea might be, and would hate to be limited. The Taig is cheap and will do the min of what I want...with historical quality...but it will not be able to handle larger projects.

I really know nothing about the fine tuning. I rebuilt and drive a 65 mustang, and have to fiddle with the carb everyday so it runs without backfiring...so that is my experience with "fine-tuning"...hence im not that great at it...but im willing to learn. Is the process difficult? I'm great at trial and error - will these systems allow for that, or will it bust something?

As for the mounting, do you mean the servos and router? Though I have never assembled or even touched/seen a servo motor in my life...aren’t they just plug-and-play on these K2 units?

Lastly, am I getting way over my head? I know my figurine business and knick-knacks will flourish when I dump 1000x more onto the market than I do now, but how long does it take to set one of these up, learn the software (I have basic CAD training (made an A in the class), I can make a cube on solid works :) , and that’s about it!!). I am able to use illustrator and Photoshop slightly better - but the "CAM"(??) software...well, no clue!

Id hate to devote more time to tennis...it doesn’t make any money :(

ClemsonGirl,

What do you make your figurines out of now? Wood? If so, and if you want to get production up in a hurry you might consider a pantagraph (duplicator).

How are you making them now?

Another option, assuming you are a "Girl", :eek: you probably would qualify for a small grant to help you establish your business. Please don't take my reference to you being a girl as anything except "not knowing" :o

If you are sure you want to get into cnc carving of the figurines I would suggest you build a machine dedicated to that, with a 4th axis and then pay someone to make your model and do the gcode from it. I am currently doing that and it has been wonderful for me.

Mike

ClemsonGirl,

Can you post a picky of your figurines for us to see what you are wanting to do?

Dave

well...i sure hope there's no assumption....here is my webshots site, http://community.webshots.com/user/makeoutmarey

(its college fun time, so don’t blame me if you disapprove - but gives you a slightly blurry, somewhat intoxicated image of who your talkin' with!)

If you have any information on a grant, please let me know!! I'm still a dependant, so I doubt I would even qualify.

Anyway, here is my latest project:

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/uploads/16719/bhouse1.jpg

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/uploads/16719/bhouse2.jpg


(I am not able to link my pictures from Clemson - so i uploaded them here)

I constructed these houses, made a mold in lab, and used cheap resin from the lab to procure these (just old LDPE). After it dries, I reheat, cool the freezer, and then paint it up (lovely blue roof...but it’s what the guys wanted). After that, I just keep making them; once I max out my sales on campus, I just start throwing them on ebay until I sales drop. My problem: takes a long time to make that first design - the CNC should be able to pop these out in no time, and make lots of variations!)

Anyway, this is basically what I do. Houses, people, terrain boards (for a popular game played on campus, called Warhammer). I can usually sell the houses for 30-40 dollars a pop to individuals, and 20-25 to local shops who then resell for 70-80. I will browse around for pictures of figurines...but are usually made with wood, then molded, and filled with pewter.

The CNC MUST be able to do decent detail work in pewter, wood, and thick (not dense) polymers.

TIA

Man I wish I was back in college. Those were the fun days!!

With all that partying, will you ever have time to build a CNC? lol

I like your work CG those little houses must take a great deal of time.

Dave

awww..i only go out once a week, pictures are only of partying, its not all i do!! I play alot of tennis, and work on the car too

and thanks for the compliment!

You sound like a very busy person, busy is good. Keep up the great work, and never stop partying :cheers:

Clemsongirl....65 Mustang...hmmmm...289 ?....I had a 66 GT and a 65 2+2....I rebuilt the engine in the 66GT....anyway...the tuning might entail chasing down the manufacturer because a part is not made correctly...maybe a little bit of filing or drilling.

The CNC would only be able to make the sides of the house and ideally the roof should be 2 pieces with a separate ridge cap. You would then glue up the sides and add the roof, at least that is how I would do it.

You might eventually make a mold for the front & back and a mold for the right side & back and a mold for the roof. If you made the mold with removeable inserts you could change the look of the sides. You would cast the pieces from either resin or any low temp alloys (white metal stuff, sometimes referred to as pot metal). Riogrande.com has a number of these alloys for casting trinkets and such. You should also investigate PMC (precious metal clay...in either silver or gold)...it's like modeling clay...you can shape it and then you fire it in a kiln and the binder is burned away and you end up with a silver or gold piece...this would be great for those little items that people would buy...

great idea, but i still think the CNC is more efficient...and building the sides at a time would be the way i would go. Plus, I am involved with in so many projects, and learning how to use a CAM software would really help me get my ideas to prototypes quickly!


Yup, 1965 mustang coupe, 331, busted up holly 4bbl 650, all new suspension, new interrior, welded up new quarter patches and fender holes, all new paint...and then...i forgot to fix the cowl that dumps water into my newly welded in floors.....hours of drilling out spot welds....lovely :(

I like popping the hood everytime I need to manually choke my car, and revvin up to tink with the carb for no apparent reason ;)

I have a 1964.5 coupe in the garage on jack stands, picked it up for 300 dollars last year. But, I want to rebuild it right and weld every seam over, and upgrade to a more modern Mustang II suspension

I would put a kit on the holley....mechanical secondaries? I never did like the unitized construction and that front subframe....wish I had my 55 chevy back...now that you could put a late model monte carlo front end and make it steer & ride like 21st century cars.

I didn't think you could punch out a 289 that far....are you sure it's not a 302 that was transplanted after it was bored and stroked? Break out the caulk, pop the cowl and caulk away.

When you start looking at your cycle times and since it's a serial process...you'll change your mind about casting resin sides. Anyway, you need your cnc mill or router before you can do anything.

Fellow clemson pkg sci grad here! Welcome to the board! There are great sources of help here. Did you say you had access to cnc equipment?? You could cut your own pieces.... On a personal note, Is Dr. Testin still teaching occassionally?? And is Dr. Cooksey still onboard??

Ive got both a mini mill the same size as the Taig and a gantry router like the K2 24x36 inch and the table router is much more practical than the mill. The mini mill's are just too small, unless you want to make intricate small machined parts, like miniature engine stuff or jewelry. For small aluminum parts there the best, but forget about making a decent size sign with a mini mill like the Taig. Its an excellent machine, but not what you need. From what youve been describing, I think a gantry style router would be much more practical for you.

Take your time and learn as much as you can before spending your money. Dont get in a hurry, theres alot to find out about your needs and the different options available. This forum will really guide you well, if your patient and you read some of the old threads.

Good luck and welcome aboard!

(The above comments are the authors and do not represent the oppinions of CNCZone or it's management.)

Viper,

nope, i had a guy take a 72 shorty (302), bore it out .40 and install all the 331 forged pistons and stuff - im not an engine person, but i can put on manifolds, and accessories. Only has 4000 or so miles on it. still...i cant get that carb right, just drives like junk at slow speed...so i just drive faster!!

I just purchased a new intake manifold, and am delaying on installing it, since it is my daily driver...therefore i kinda feel like spending alot of time on the carb is gonna be stupid cause i am going to have to tweak it again after I install my new weiand :)

I'm really looking into these K2 setups, are they as really problematic as this board puts them out to be? And, how complex is the servo setup and installation?

Lurch,

Cooksey is still teaching everything, and Testin does not come in anymore. I do not have access to a CNC...and doubt the engineering (a.k.a foreign people department) would like me milling out junk on "their" stuff.

Sadly, the department's new trend is hiring professors who have little to no experience in the work world. One guy has worked for 4 years on autoCAD and teaches a few 400 level classes (wow...my experience beats that), and another one just went through grad school, never stepped a foot out of the university, and teaches alot of the intro classes. Pus, Michigan state grads take all the good jobs. im kinda wishing i can somehow turn into a minority and join the mechanical engineering folks and go into automotive engineering. (i know that last comment was uncalled for - but if you just saw what was going on down here, you would say alot worse)


Halfnutz,

Thanks!! there is just so much information...hard to process all of this, but it looks like the larger setup is the way to go (just more practical)...but its gonna hurt the bank.

Clemson girl, you could machine those little houses out using a machine like the Taig.

There are some limitations, but also advantages compared to your existing process.

Let's say that you want to make them out of wood, or a machinable plastic or foam.

You have to machine 5 sides of the cube.

They can be done with a 3 axis machine, with a 4 axis rotary indexer.
See http://www.deskproto.com/features/newinv4.htm

The grassy base would have to be added as a secondary piece.

You can create the houses very easily in Solidworks using cubes. A couple of days experimenting will give you all the experience you need.

The house would require an extension at the bottom which would be gripped in the indexer collet or held in place with a screw. After machining, you would cut this part off with a saw and then attach the grassy base.

Anyways, once the solid model is created, save it out as an STL file. This file can be read into a program like DESKPROTO or MESHCAM http://www.meshcam.com/

This is the CAM program which will create the G code to run your CNC.

You will need 4 indexes to create almost any house you have designed.

A few practical issues.

1. Because these are small items, you will need a small router bit to get the required detail. All this means is that it will take longer to cut. I'd estimate that these houses would take 1/2 hour to one hour to cut on your CNC using a 1/16" dia bit.
This might sound like alot of time, but I'd guess that you have that much time invested doing the painting. So you could be painting while the router is cutting. You could use a bigger bit to do the rough out, and go back with a smaller bit to detail and this will save you clock time, but will be more labor intensive.

2. You mentioned a lathe to create Chess pieces. With an indexer you can create these parts and won't need a lathe.

3. Don't discount the learning curve, but once you've mastered it CNC is very easy and you know exactly what your results will be.

wow, lots of great info...few questions though:

does the indexer rotate automatically, and the g-code continue though?

I clicked on that CAM website and noticed some really detailed designs...how hard is it to draw on a CAM, are images (3D) easily done?

Though the smaller unit is really nice, what if I want to design my own front door? Can the smaller units be "upgraded", and extend the x,y,z's? Or would I be forced to create a bunch of 6x6 sqaures and connnect?

ClemsonGirl...the small units can't be easily extended at least the mill's can't.

With your envelope you could get by with a 15 X 15 X 3to5" unit....

Indexer will only rotate automatically if it has been converted....ya know....a stepper or servo added to turn the wheel, it will then be your 4th axis.

You will most likely want to create your models in something like Rhino 3D....the CAM is to drive the X-Y-Z table. Since you're a student...Rhino 3D is only about $195.

It might not be a carb problem if you installed an agressive cam....does it have the loppy idle?

wow, lots of great info...few questions though:

does the indexer rotate automatically, and the g-code continue though?

Vipertx explained this well.


I clicked on that CAM website and noticed some really detailed designs...how hard is it to draw on a CAM, are images (3D) easily done?

Creating the piece is done in CAD - computer aided design. The CNC program is created in CAM - computer aided machining (manufacturing).

Your houses would be easy. A design like sculpture of a face is usally sculpted by hand and then recreated in CAD using a 3D scanner.
http://www.rolanddga.com/products/3D/scanners/lpx250/default.asp


Though the smaller unit is really nice, what if I want to design my own front door? Can the smaller units be "upgraded", and extend the x,y,z's? Or would I be forced to create a bunch of 6x6 sqaures and connnect?

Yes and no. This question has many potential answers depending upon your exact needs.

Your best option is to define exactly what you want to do and then proceed. If you say that you want to do 3D figurines and valve covers that points to one solution. If you want to do front doors that points to another.

It sounds like what you want is the most flexibility possible because as opportunities come up you want to take advantage of them. Be aware that the more flexible a machine is means that there are usually more compromises.

For example, let's say that your business is making small house sculptures. You may need a 4 axis machine with a footprint of no more than 2' x 2'. A total cost of $2000/$2500.

A machine to do front doors would need a travel of at least 36" x 84", meaning a footprint of probably 4' x 8'. Cost of $8000.

You just spent alot of money to get the capacity to do front doors that you may only need once in awhile. Plus for the same money, you could have 4 little machines pumping out alot of houses.

Another option is to make sure you have a gantry style machine with a stationary bed. If the bed is made correctly, you can have your part (door) sticking out the end of the machine. You might only be able to carve 24" at a time, but you can manually move the door 24" at a time and then cut 24" more until the entire part is done.

Just my 2 cents, but for a small business you should get a machine that will do 80% of the ideas you have. Later, as it pays for itself, (and some profit) then look into getting another machine for the 20% of wild and crazy ideas that will pop up.

There is no reason that you have to limit yourself to one machine or one style of machine. I personally have 3, a CNC scrollsaw, a 3 axis machine for signwork , and a 4 axis machine for sculptures. As my business develops, I see potential for maybe up to 20 machines all churning out products.