I have a January 1998 built machine. The operator didnt know you cant go over having 200 programs in memory. The machine now has a 102 fault (normal on start up) and a 212 program integrity fault and 251 program data structure fault and there seems to be no way to reset the alarms. Anybody out there ran accross this one before? Thanks. I guess this should have went in the Haas section sorry :o

050817-1300 EST USA

altcan:

Have you removed any or all programs from memory?

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The programs have been backed up but you cant remove any because you cant get past the alarms to remove them. I figure that is the main problem. too many programs stuck in the memory. Does this sound familiar?

Have you tried the "all" selection?

Toggle down to "All" in the list and select it..then delete...

You can also use this for outputting all the programs to one file..then reload them back in by loading this "All" file..

it saves you from having to download all the programs seperatly..and reloading them one at a time..

If there is a slight delay between pressing reset and the alarm 251 try getting to the List Program page, go down to ALL and try to Delete ALL in the time you have available. I have had alarms 212 and 251 and have been able to work around them to write ALL to a disc before doing the delete but I cannot remember the exact details.

Hi guys! I cant seem to toggle anywhere with anything! Just cant seam to get past this alarm!

Is it possible there is a button sequence or power up procedure that might let me in there to delete those files?

I just looked up the full description for those alarms and the 212 can occur with a low battery. This is a possibility with your 7 years old machine

When I had these two alarms the procedures here worked for me.

212 PROG INTEGRITY ERROR Possible corrupted program. Save all programs to disk, delete all, then reload. Check for a low battery and low battery alarm.

251 PROG DATA STRUCT ERROR Possible corrupted program. Save all programs to disk, delete all, then reload.

It let us save all programs to disk but then would not let us do the next step and delete them. We havent had a low battery alarm and it would seem like a very unlikely coincidence for the battery to fail just at the same time. I have also found out that this machine done this back a few years ago but there is a different operator here now so what ever the fix was it was done over the phone and not written down. Grrrrrrr.!

Well Looks like it time to call Haas...Sorry out of ideas..never seen this one before.

Ya I called them and no body knew the answer. And to top it of they still want us to fly one of them up here so he can look at it! Maybe have another resource in the morning! Wont go out to shop with hammer yet! (chair)

Did you call the factory or the HFO??

I'd try the factory,,but maybe you did...

Most of the solutions to resolve this proble have been suggested already. The solution is to delete all the programs in memory. This may be hard to do, but with repeated attempts it is possible. If all else fails call the Haas factory service department.

050817-2112 EST USA

Haas_Apps:

What if the battery is removed and all battery backed memory is lost. Probably takes a moderate amount of time for whatever capacitors you have to discharge enough to clobber data sufficiently so that control thinks memory is empty.

How much of things like settings, etc. are in the battery backed CMOS memory? If these other critical parameters are in the CMOS vs FLASH or something else, then how do you load a totally empty memory?

Is this inability to easily clear memory under these conditions being corrected, and does it exist in every machine you have made or is it in only a limited time frame? Or is this of such a low probablity that it has to be tolerated if it occurs? I do not know that we have ever put too many programs in a machine. But we have never experienced this problem. Is this something we need to worry about?

Can you tell us how CMOS and any other memory you use is distributed? It appears that when one loads a program into memory from RS232 that it is buffered, processed for distinguishable errors, compressed, buffered, and when completely loaded replaces any existing program of the same O-number. Based on what you seem to do in DNC is looks like everything might be using the same CMOS memory. Based on our experience your CMOS memory under power up and down is extremely well protected from data errors.

If the battery is removed and all its protected data is lost can the user reload all necessary data, or is some external special loader equipment required.

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If I were to remove or unhook the battery would I not loose all of my parameters as well? I think I want to avoid that if possible.

050818-0952 EST USA

altcan:

That is the question I am asking HAAS in my post, and if you do lose everything, then how do you reload?

Under RS232 in the section on OPERATION a paragraph says
"Parameters, settings, offsets, and macro variables" may be sent and received individually using LIST PROG, SEND, RECV.

Assuming that you or someone has previously saved these, then if the CMOS data is turned into random junk by removing the battery, and reinstalling a good battery, is it possible to reload via RS232?

Obviously one has to at least setup the RS232 parameters ( HAAS calls these settings ) manually in order to function, but what else? Also is there something stored in CMOS that does not fall in these categories that might be needed?

For you to judge what to do you need to hear from HAAS.

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You can also save and load settings from the floppy. unfortunatly probably not until you clear the problem sinces its keeping you from doing anything else.

To save or load from the floppy you simply go to the program loading section like your going to load a program and then hit the parameters/settings ect butoon and then type a name for the file and hit read/write depending on what your doing.

I would check the save option before commiting these actions just to make sure I remembered the right sequencing :D .

BUT like I said until the alarm is cleared you cant even try it. Also if you have your original manual you will have all of your settings in written form in there. It would suck to type everything in, but it is a last ditch option.

050818-1207 EST USA

miljnor:

Yes we save everything from our machines.

We have never had to reload from a state where the content is the random data generated when first powering up from no power on the CMOS chips. Thus, I do not know if HAAS has an obscure bug that prevents one from loading this data. Additionally I do not know if all the semifixed data is stored in CMOS. If I were designing the system I would use flash or similar memory for data that is seldom changed. Further this would have a physical switch that had to be actuated while changing data.

We have used battery backed CMOS memory in some of our products for the last 30 years since CMOS first became available. For critical data areas we have always used an interlock to allow writing to memory.

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I have a 1995 and a 1997 HL-1 on the '95 I can copy or delete programs under an alarm condition; not the 212 or 251 alarms because I can't generate them. On the '97 I can write and read disc files under an alarm condition so the existence of the alarm condition per se does not lock out these operations.

050817-2112 EST USA

Haas_Apps:

What if the battery is removed and all battery backed memory is lost. Probably takes a moderate amount of time for whatever capacitors you have to discharge enough to clobber data sufficiently so that control thinks memory is empty.

How much of things like settings, etc. are in the battery backed CMOS memory? If these other critical parameters are in the CMOS vs FLASH or something else, then how do you load a totally empty memory?

Is this inability to easily clear memory under these conditions being corrected, and does it exist in every machine you have made or is it in only a limited time frame? Or is this of such a low probablity that it has to be tolerated if it occurs? I do not know that we have ever put too many programs in a machine. But we have never experienced this problem. Is this something we need to worry about?

Can you tell us how CMOS and any other memory you use is distributed? It appears that when one loads a program into memory from RS232 that it is buffered, processed for distinguishable errors, compressed, buffered, and when completely loaded replaces any existing program of the same O-number. Based on what you seem to do in DNC is looks like everything might be using the same CMOS memory. Based on our experience your CMOS memory under power up and down is extremely well protected from data errors.

If the battery is removed and all its protected data is lost can the user reload all necessary data, or is some external special loader equipment required.

.

Battery Backed-up Random Access Memory (BBU-RAM) retains its contents after the power is turned off. Only if the battery on the processor board is good, if the power of the battery goes low the memory gets corrupted, if the battery dies the memory goes blank. Battery Backed up memory holds information such as Customer programs, Settings, Parameters, Offsets.

I rarely see this type of problem. I have only seen it on very old CTR machines. Current release software will not allow you to load more than 500 programs in memory. If you try you will get an alarm 403, TOO MANY PROGRAMS. I would not worry about it.

As far as details about the memory structure in the Haas control, I can not go into details. I can tell you that it is simply flash memory, and bbu memory. If I say any more I could get myself into trouble.

The best way to protect yourself from any problems with bbu memory is to back up all of you programs, parameters, settings, and offsets to a floppy disk. You should be able to locate the proceedure in your manual. All machines ship with a disk of everything already backed up. Some parameters may have been adjusted at installation, and the service tech. should have backed up everything at that time. The proceedure to re-load all of these can be little difficult and would probably best be left to a service tech. If you have probelms re-loading, you don't want to have your machine down.

One final note about the battery. You should get an alarm long before the battery goes dead informing you that it is low.

050818-1407 EST USA

altcan:

I have reread all of the posts. It appears that you can save programs, and thus probably parameters and settings. This you should do no matter what you do later. I would not save to floppy but rather thru RS232. Do it twice and compare the files. RS232 won't limit your saved file size. Thus you can save a lot of time with save ALL.

The HAAS reply it is not too useful to solving your problem.

Do not assume that I am suggesting that you remove the battery. This is probably a last resort. HAAS service can eat up a lot of money and I assume your hesitation relates to this. HAAS service can be very good, but some people have had problems.

Battery removal is probably a last resort.

Any real competitor of HAAS knows how their control works and therefore I see no reason we could not know a little more on their logical structure.

Prove to yourself that you can backup all possible information, and that it is error free.

HAAS did not give us any information on the problems of starting from a blank memory ( blank is probably not blank whatever that means, but random bits as I previously mentioned ). Thus, if your last recouse was removing the battery, then at worst you might have to call in HAAS service.

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Considering that the software used on a 1998 machine is no longer in use it does seem a bit silly to be so reticent.

not only that there isn't a manufacture on machine tools out there that cant reverse engineer software!

comeone my nephiew wants to take my 1993 machine apart to get to all the settings and find out what them memory and stuff is. He could do it too, and only about 16yrs old!

Many things have been said regarding the program integrity alarm. First, It cost abosolutly nothing to call 800-331-6746 and ask a service person a question. Second, If it is so easy to "find out what them memory and stuff is." then there is really no need to post anything about it. Third, I do not work in service, and offer help when think I can. I am sorry that what little I have to say is of no help. I will continue to visit this site from time to time. If I think I can help, I will. I have already given the solution to the probelm. If the problem contiues, by all means make the FREE phone call for FREE support.

Haas Apps,

Just to let you..we do appreciate you stopping by and offering up any help you can..

Stop by often and offer what you can or allowed to..

I agree with the phone call thing..I myself have called the factory many times.. cost nothing...they even return my calls..and I have never had them not figure out what I needed to know..and very polite and knowledgeable too..

Thanks,
WMS

050822-2051 EST USA

altcan:

Have you resolved your problem yet? If not what is your latest status?

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050912-2003 EST USA

altcan:

I would like to learn what your status is? Have you solved the problem? If so how? Feedback is always useful.

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Hi guys, just an update! Sorry I havent been on here keeping in touch. This Lathe just keeps getting put on the back burner as we are too busy to go out and play with it. We just about got it back up when some kids shot an insulator on a power line and knocked out the power on the whole city. Now we have to start over. What we had to do to get in to the programing mode was to hold the PRGRM CONVRS button while powering up. Then you enter fc80000 17ffff or fc 80000 1fffff Then you have to go in and check every last one of your parameters. Some will still be correct but some will have changed. We just about had them all done when the power got knocked out. On a personal note I will be taking a week off here and there working on my Gyro Copter pilots licence so dont get too excited if I dont respond for a while. I will keep you all updated when ever I can. Thanks boys for all your help, it is all very much appreciated! :cheers: