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j m
07-08-2005, 07:43 AM
this site is what Iíve been looking for, really good stuff !!
Stumbled across http://www.terry-is.f2s.com/ and while reading about his mill I caught the bug. Reading about the picstep http://www.fromorbit.com/ controllers decided I wanted to start to play with picís. I am imprested that some one has spent so much time developing it and when I have built mine I will be contributing to ďbuy Alan a lathe fund!Ē

I brought the k8048 from http://www.velleman.be/ Iíve e-mailed this to velleman


I am having problems with the k8048 PIC programmer. I have closely cheeked my soldering and donít think it is the problem. When I bought the kit from MAPLIN. I was advised to which lead to use, it was the wrong one (Null Modem Cable pin wiring as follows 2-3, 3-2, 4-6, 5-5, 6-4, 7-8, 8-7 ) as I had a strait thro converter which would change the gender of one of the plugs from female to male I tried it thinking the null modem cable had a straight thro connection, which did not work with the message from the software saying I could not find the k8048. I then got the correct serial lead, and now can detect the k8048. When I try to write to the PIC the reed/write light comes on but the software displays the message that (no device id received) I have brought a new PIC because I thought that the fist one mite have bean damage from using the null modem cable but the same thing happens. Has using the null modem cable damaged the serial port on the computer or some of the components on the k8048. I am using a laptop, and know that some laptops have problems interfacing with the parallel port because they do not produce enough power through the port, but have not found any mention of this happening with the serial port.


But thought that I would post it hear as well, in case any one could help.
Any help greatly appreciated

Thanks
jm

j m
07-08-2005, 01:03 PM
This doesnít really answer any of my questions, but at least they replied. if any one could tell me how to test the serial port is working correctly or what the problem is, I will be very grateful
Dear sir,

Thank you for your interest and using our kits.

Yes, the cable must be full connected and connected "pin-to-pin" because
the kit use the "handshaking" signal lines and not the normal RS232
lines: RxD-TxD.

Please check the following things, these are the most common problems.

- The voltage, supplied to the K8048 must be at least 15V (=12V
unregulated adapter)

- Serial port is not 100% IBM compatible (new PC's may have different
voltage level)

- Cable is not correct

- Kit has an assembly error ?


Best regards,

Pascal De Petter,
Velleman KIT R&D.

smarbaga
07-09-2005, 11:01 PM
if you didn't spend to much $$ on it , you cal always check out k149

http://www.kitsrus.com/upuc.html#k149
i think i payed $24. us for one, works good ( serial, usb and icsp )
Here is a list of the PICs the software & firmware of diypack25 supports for Kits 149 and 150. Kits 128 & 182 are Flash programmers and support only those PICs with an 'F' in the partnumber:

12C508 16C65A 16C77 16F76 16F877
12C508A 16C65B 16C710 16F77 16F877A
12C509 16C66 16C711 16F737 18F242
12C509A 16C66A 16C712 16F747 18F248
12C671 16C67 16C716 16F767 18F252
12C672 16C620 16C745 16F777 18F258
12CE673 16C620A 16C765 16F83 18F442
12CE674 16C621 16C773 16F84 18F448
12F629 16C621A 16C774 16F84A 18F452
12F675 16C622 16C83 16F87 18F458
16C505 16C622A 16C84 16F88 18F1220
16C554 16C71 16F627 16F818 18F1320
16C558 16C71A 16F627A 16F819 18F2220
16C61 16C72 16F628 16F870 18F2320
16C62 16C72A 16F628A 16F871 18F4220
16C62A 16C73 16F630 16F872 18F4320
16C62B 16C73A 16F648A 16F873
16C63 16C73B 16F676 16F873A Added diypack23:
16C63A 16C74 16F684 16F874 16F5x
16C64 16C74A 16F688 16F874A 10Fxxx 18F6525 6621 8525 8621 (all beta)
16C64A 16C74B 16F73 16F876
16C65 16C76 16F74 16F876A Added diypack25 12F683

j m
07-13-2005, 07:34 AM
Thanks smarbaga for the reply. your programmer looks better than the one Iíve got, with the USB a serial ports, but I want to get this one working.

Does any body know which pins to test for the voltage of the serial port. And the qbasic number for the port e.g. for the parallel port ( OUT,888 1 ) will give you the high voltage over pins 2, 25
thanks j m

abasir
07-13-2005, 08:45 PM
Serial port pinout shown below. Measure voltage of any pin against signal ground. For more explanation, goto http://www.acumeninstruments.com/Support/documentation/SerialPortBasics/index.shtml

smarbaga
07-13-2005, 09:47 PM
to input and output data to/from a serial port you may want to use a terminal program like hyper terminal in the windows communications dropdown menu.
many fancier ones can be downloaded for free.

abasir
07-14-2005, 08:40 PM
Most serial port problems arise because of non-compliance voltage levels (-12V,+12V vs 0V, +5V). Just measure the pins against ground, if its somewhere around +12V or -12V, then you should be okay... i.e., problem is somewhere else :(

j m
07-15-2005, 09:05 AM
hi abasir
Iíve tried to do this before but think that I need to get a high reading between pins 2, 9 but donít know how to get it into a high state.

with a volt meter, the - lead on signal ground (5)
This is what I got

Pin,
1 0.01v
2 0.00v
3 0.66v
4 0.26v
6 0.04v
7 0.66v
8 0.01v
9 0.02v

And I know this is not right, as I didnít even get 1volt. And I can not compare it to my main desktop computer as it doesnít have a serial port just usb. Perhaps the port is completely blown?
Iím on the look out for an old computer instead of using a laptop any way, this will just speed the search up.
Any help greatly appreciated
jm

abasir
07-17-2005, 08:54 AM
I suspect your serial port having problem. I just measured the voltage on my USB->RS232 adaptor; getting about -8V on pin 3,4,7 againts pin 5. The rest is around 0V.

Patrick_II
08-27-2005, 09:53 AM
I have experienced exactly the same problem than you jm.

The first thing I did was to change the PIC : I've replaced the original 16F627 by a 16F84A one.

The problem remained. Exactly : "no device ID received" whit the 16F627 and
"write error..." with the 16F84A.

I've then reinstalled the soft PROGPIC2.EXE, without success.

I've also replaced the non-regulated 12 Vdc supply, no more success.

I've then measured, with a Tektronix TDS 210 scope, the non-regulated voltage produced by both supplies : it appeared to be near well regulated (!) at +/- 17V3...I thought the problem was not there.

Please note that my PC offers two serial ports, my scope was connected on COM1, and the VM111/K8048 on COM2.

I've swapped the VM111 with the scope : it now works well with the 16F627 but the problem persists with with the 16F84A...but maybe that the 16F84A is out of order?

Of course my scope still works well on COM2.

Don't ask me why the fact of use COM1 instead of COM2 SEEMS to solve the problem (of course I knew that the COM's can be selected with PROGPIC2...)

I think that peoples, like you and me, experiencing this kind of problem, have not to look on the hardware side (bad programmer, bad PIC, bad cable,...) but on the software side.

I think the first thing to do is to uninstall ALL the devices addressing a serial
port (except the VM111), even if you think that they do not address the COM# where your pic programmer is connected, connect the pic programmer on COM1, and then retry...but I'm absolutely not an expert.

Hope this will help.

j m
08-27-2005, 04:30 PM
Hi Patrick thanks for posting what you have done, it may help other people and Iím glad that you have got yours working.
I think I know what my problem is, as like you I have ruled out the power supply. I have also tried other PICís and I have reinstalled the software and tried another software program. I have the correct port selected in the bios. So that leaves the serial port, and from what I understand there are different standards for the serial port. As I am using a laptop I think this is some of the problem.
When I measured the voltage of the serial port it was very low but the K8048 is detected by the software and when I try to program a PIC the read/write LED lights up.
So I am still on the look out for a new computer (but I havenít done much looking, but you have reminded me to start), as my main desktop doesnít have a serial port, or I may get a USB adapter.

If you want to use the other serial port I think you may need to change your bios settings.

The link for the web site for the other software I found which is compatible with the vellemen K8048
http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/winpic/

Out of interest how useful do you find your scope as I donít have one, and am not really sure what you use it for?

So when I get my programmer working after making the stepper driverís for my CNC the next projects will be:
I found this web site were some one has made a clock out of a cathode ray tube from a scope and using PICís to control it. This has to be one of the coolest clocks in the world
http://www.webx.dk/oz2cpu/clock-scope/scope.htm

Tetris on a pic
http://www.rickard.gunee.com/projects/

james

Patrick_II
08-30-2005, 06:58 AM
Hi James, bad news (for me). To swap COM2 with COM1 has not solved anything. The problem reappeared the day after.
So please forget all that I've written...Is an oscilloscope useful? Yes of course. It allows you not to only measure a voltage, but, mainly, it allows you to SEE THE SHAPE of your signal. I think that the reading of a DB9 pin voltage with a multimeter, even a very good one, is very hard (if not impossible) to interpret. The multimeter will read, e.g., "9.05 VRMS" if the byte is "00110011" then maybe "9,65 VRMS" if the byte change to "11110011" and so on...very quikly...but what will it really read finally ? With a scope, I think you'll see the byte itself. At last, it's not "my" scope, but one I've just borrowed at my job...thank for your superb links.

j m
08-31-2005, 07:09 AM
Hi Patrick, It seams weird that it was working and then stops. At least I am not the only one having problems, hope you get it sorted, any ideas whatís wrong, keep me posted.

I had an idea of what oscilloscope could measure although I have never used one, I just wounded how useful one would be to some one who just tinkers in electronics. Looks like, very useful, I have often seen them referred to in articles. I will start to look for one, are there any specific features I should look out for?
I was using just a cheepío digital multimeter to measure the serial port voltage, do you think that they are accurate readings? Or even in the right area.
What are you planning to use your programmer for?

Just in case any body was reading this looking for a PIC programmer I have read on other forums that people have had no problems at all, and I am sure I will get it working. One of the reasons I got the velleman K8048 is the fact you can run test programs on the board using the switches and LEDĎs, I think thatís a nice feature.
Thanks james

One of Many
08-31-2005, 01:49 PM
Next to a good meter and a CMOS/TTL logic probe, an O-scope opens up a new world to see the signal. Not only in shape, but duration and timing relationships to other signals. Noise is another nuisance that can cause unseen problems.

At minimum, get a 2 channel with around a 100Mhz basic model. Depends on your area of need. Bells and whisles would be nice, but as with any piece of hardware like this. Get the most you can for the least cost. You can always upgrade and pass the old one off to another motivated techy rising star. Ebay might not be the best place, but there are some great deals listed if you know what you are looking for.

I have had my HP1707 for about 15years. I paid about $245 for it back then at a Boeing auction. It has paid for itself 10 times over at least. What I see available these days are a lot better for the same amount of money. One of these days I might make the jump on a newer unit, when this HP won't fit my application, or the magic smoke comes out of it. I have seen them selling for about $30-60 now! Heheh!

DC

j m
08-31-2005, 03:36 PM
Hi DC, This shows my basic playing with electronics I donít have a logic probe, I had bean looking to get one but was waiting until I got my PIC programmer working, I thought that would have bean a wile ago. Looking at the UKís equitant of radio shack [maplin, they do not always have the best stuff or the cheapest but I can walk into the shop and buy it instead of having to pay and wait for it to be delivered] they have this one (http://www.maplin.co.uk/search.aspx?MenuNo=963&MenuName=Logic+Probes&worldid=9&FromMenu=y&doy=31m8) would that be adequate, having look at some other ones which have a built-in pulser? Is this worth having?
I have looked a oscilloscopes on eBay before but wasnít sure what to look for thanks for at least giving me some idea of what to look for. I had also thought about a computer oscilloscope. When you say 100Mhz is that sine waves or square waves as this one from parallaxhttp://www.optascope.com/ is (View sine waves up to 60 kHz View square waves up to 100 kHz)
Would this oscilloscope be any good?

Thanks james

One of Many
08-31-2005, 04:58 PM
Hi DC, This shows my basic playing with electronics I donít have a logic probe, I had bean looking to get one but was waiting until I got my PIC programmer working, I thought that would have bean a wile ago. Looking at the UKís equitant of radio shack [maplin, they do not always have the best stuff or the cheapest but I can walk into the shop and buy it instead of having to pay and wait for it to be delivered] they have this one (http://www.maplin.co.uk/search.aspx?MenuNo=963&MenuName=Logic+Probes&worldid=9&FromMenu=y&doy=31m8) would that be adequate, having look at some other ones which have a built-in pulser? Is this worth having?

That one looks usable. I would rather have the pulser as a seperate unit so that I can have my logic probe down stream to see the signal propagate through with the intended result.



I have looked a oscilloscopes on eBay before but wasnít sure what to look for thanks for at least giving me some idea of what to look for. I had also thought about a computer oscilloscope. When you say 100Mhz is that sine waves or square waves as this one from parallaxhttp://www.optascope.com/ is (View sine waves up to 60 kHz View square waves up to 100 kHz)
Would this oscilloscope be any good?

Thanks james

O-scopes can by like underwear. A lot of the specs are subjective to how the unit is used and how it is made to fit. I see 100Mhz scope as having the capability to comfortably view a 100Mhz signal. Some might consider it as response time on one spike etc. Others might consider it a max bandwidth of the circuitry.

I'd concern myself more with things like Digital storage, Graticule size, Minimum sweep time. Min and max voltage inputs...ah, the list goes on........pro's that use them would have a better sense in features for level of importance.

I did buy one of those PC scopes for work. Not a good scope IMHO. As you have noticed, the fastest signals it can track are around 100Khz? Compare that to 100Mhz. They do not compare, but are OK for maybe audio and low freq projects. Nothing worse than knowing signals are there, but not having the equipment to prove they have any integrity. These PC scopes will work fine for some things(like first year student training). They just are not as reliable for most things(like anything after second year student training).

DC

j m
08-31-2005, 06:18 PM
Thanks thatís really great, saved me from making a mistake. I think I am going to do some reading about oscilloscopes, and some saving looking at the priceís!

pulser as a seperate unit
Is that a Function generator? signal generator? Or am I talking about the same thing?

I have started a new post for, out of curiosity what would be The ultimate list of tools for electronics new post (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12887)

Patrick_II
09-02-2005, 02:38 PM
Hi james, not so weird in fact. I now believe that the voltage levels of the
pic programmer are not fully compatible with the voltage levels of a PC COM port.
In my mind, considering a RS-232 link, a 'high state' bit (bit = "1") must correspond at + 12V, and a 'low state' one (bit = "0") should correspond at -12V.
So the peak to peak voltage should be +12 - (-12) = 24 V(peak to peak)
If you look at the scope screen that I've mailed last time, you will notice that the peak to peak voltage is not at 24V but at 20.2V...maybe it could explain that sometimes it works and sometimes not, 20.2Vp-p being close of 24Vp-p.
Of course D.C. is right, a scope can tell you many more than the shape of a signal, and
he well advises you on how to look for a good one (but don't buy a too expensive 'high-range' O-scope, a 250 $ second hand one should effectively be sufficient.) But DO NOT buy a computer oscilloscope.
Using a digital multimeter to read a serial port voltage isn't accurate, and doesn't even lead you in a right area...but I may be wrong. Why do I think that ? Of course you know what a byte is : e.g. byte = ď00011101" with "0"=-12V and "1"=+12V
If your DMM is a very good one, it will read the TRMS voltage (True Root Mean Square) of the byte, but, the byte changing constantly, it has no great sense. Like D.C. says, you'd better use a good logic probe (20 to 40$ I think.) And if your meter is not a TRMS one, I'm afraid you can completely forget what you've measured. Look
still at my scope screen: the TRMS voltage is 9.94V but it does even not interest me : the matter is, in this case, the peak to peak voltage : never any multimeter will read 20.2Vp-p
You've already understood that 9.94V(RMS) = 20.2V(p-p)...AT THIS MOMENT FOR THIS BYTE! Change the byte and the effective (=TRMS) voltage will vary, but not the peak to peak one.
At last, I've bought the PIC programmer because I'didn't even knew what a PIC was and wanted to know.
Before my problem, I was just writing a silly program driving a solenoid valve and a motor:
1) one push on the 'start' button then the valve open
2) 2" later the motor run during 5" and then stop
3) the valve stay opened 3" and then close.
You're right when you say that the switches and leds of the K8048 are a nice feature, but I'm now tired to try to make the stuff work, I'm going to return the kit to the Velleman technical departement. I'll keep you informed.

Patrick_II
09-02-2005, 03:19 PM
Hi James, I've forgotten this, if you want to know what an O-scope is really, what it can do, how to use it,...you MUST go at http://www.tektronix.com/ and look for the pdf file 'XYZs of oscilloscopes'...normally it's exactly here :
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/cgi-bin/framed.pl?Document=/Measurement/App_Notes/XYZs/&FrameSet=oscilloscopes

I know nothing better to teach somebody. Hope it will help.

One of Many
09-03-2005, 12:58 AM
A logic probe will not do well working with any signals outside of TTL or CMOS. Which are 0-5vdc or 0-12vdc respectively. In no way would a logic probe be useful to check +/-12V for any reason. There are other devices that can inspect, capture and decode com port signals.

I have used a program called Windmill. Don't know if that would help much for pinging outputs on individually. There are loop back test circuits that might verify a port. Finding the program or having the knowledge to tweak it to that level is a challenge. I doubt it would matter if it is a USB port per say. These are still serial ports standardized protocol as I understand them. Don't know why there would not be something similar for USB. At least on a PC troubleshooting disk?

Other than that, I hear there are counselors that can resolve the toughest communication connection problems. :rolleyes:

DC

j m
09-03-2005, 06:22 AM
Hi DC, I forget that a dmm would not provide a correct result, I did know this but head a helpful prod now and a gain. I had been trying to find my Amm as I think this would give me a rough idea of the voltage? And then work out how to send a stream of 11111111 But I have just moved every thing is still in boxís.
I wasnít going to use the logic probe to check the com port signals, and I had already got the windmill software but havenít tried it yet, thanks for reminding me about it, I mite give that a go.
Here is the link if any body else wants it http://www.windmill.co.uk/serial.html

Patrick, thanks for the link.


Other than that, I hear there are counselors that can resolve the toughest communication connection problems. I have booked an appointment!


Thanks a lot for helping me hope fully I will be able to repay the favour, james

Patrick_II
09-03-2005, 02:32 PM
Hi DC, you're right. I had forgotten that a logic probe works well between 0 to +5V (or +12V), not between -12V to +12V. But what do you think about this little RS-232 tester (I've used something like that 10 years ago :I think it's not so bad) ? Tell me.

One of Many
09-03-2005, 02:52 PM
I'd wonder if any multimeter will be able to give much information beyond detecting something did or did not change state for a bit stream. The RMS for analog meters is based on a average sine wave, not a square wave, unless it is a true RMS meter. Digital meters should if the signal were stable.

A scope can put out an RMS value as Patrick shows, but I would question its validity, only because the signals are not consistent. As a go/no-go for signal presence, it would be useful. I'd tend to think that value itself is inconsequential. But then the signal viewed on the O-scope would be enough validation for presence.

My suspicions are that if the signals standard from the PC are in the +/-12 volt range(to produce the 20v swing with a 0vdc bias) and the supply for the VM111 is only 12-15v. The signal leaving the VM111 will only be around if not less than +/-6v with a +6vdc bias if using a common ground between the 2 devices. This signal leaving the VM111 may not be detectable by the PC serial port? You should be able to see this if the VM111 makes an attempt to respond on the PC receive line via the scope.

It could be fair to add that the laptop is also running on 12vdc, so this may all be superficial on my part.

This just might put the VM111 signal in the transition region(normally between +/-3v) of the switching state of a com port, which would fail to detect any changes of state on the receive line and/or hand shaking for that matter. Sometimes it might and sometimes not? In this case considering the signal differences, if the two units were connected via an optical isolation module powered by the PC, they may work fine. Just dunno for sure, but I can keep guessing as well as anyone.Heheh!

Apogee Kits (http://www.apogeekits.com/pic_programmer_vm111.htm) Does have a warning that this may not work with some laptops, but do not give details.

I liked that CRT clock link! Too Cool.......LOL!

DC

j m
09-03-2005, 03:50 PM
Apogee Kits (http://www.apogeekits.com/pic_programmer_vm111.htm) Does have a warning that this may not work with some laptops, but do not give details.

This is why I thought it was the voltage as I am using a laptop, and I read that laptops tend to have lover voltage on the serial port than desk tops. It also said that there wasnít really a standard for the serial port on desktops or laptops and the voltage can range some were in-between 5volts ~ 12volts.

This is the reason I thought it was the serial port voltage: using the program to it can detect the K8048. When I press the read write buttons on the computer program the read/write LED on the K8048 lights up, but the software says ďno device id receivedĒ but I have tried this with several different PICís
Is this similar to you Patrick?

Those cocks are good if I ever get programming PICĎs I mite give it a go.

I was browsing a site the other day about CNC and to my surprise it had a link to home made clocks a CRT and there are some good ones made with nixie tubeís
Link more cool clocks: http://timeguy.com/cradek/clocks


A scope functions as your 'eyes' in electronics. I can't imagine being with out one. Being without a scope would be like being a blind portrait painter; the results would be interesting at best.

Patrick_II
09-03-2005, 05:10 PM
You Know DC, I think that the average value of a sine wave (I mean a perfect one : w/o harmonics) is exactly zero. The True Root Mean Square ( = effective value) of the same sinewave is not zero but : U(trms)=U(max)/1.41
1.41=square root of 2
The "RMS" voltage IS ABSOLUTELY NOT the average voltage, neither for a sinewave nor a squarewave. And a good DMM isn't based on the the average voltage (or current...), but on the (T)RMS one. I will develop my point of view (really not mine in fact) later because I first must to think how to explain that...I'm absolutely not an expert in serial devices communications but I think I know a something about the measurement of voltages and currents.

One of Many
09-03-2005, 05:33 PM
Hi DC, you're right. I had forgotten that a logic probe works well between 0 to +5V (or +12V), not between -12V to +12V. But what do you think about this little RS-232 tester (I've used something like that 10 years ago :I think it's not so bad) ? Tell me.

I have used RS232 LED testers (http://www.bb-elec.com/bb-elec/literature/9pmtt.pdf) too. In some instances the testers themselves can load the port to the degree of absorbing the signals so much so that what is left over is not useful coming out the other end. I have never experience it that I can recall. Although when I use them, it is just for temporary troubleshooting of machine tool communication.

Here is a good link with some details to RS232 Protocol standards (http://www.camiresearch.com/Data_Com_Basics/RS232_standard.html#anchor1181440) which may be useful, if not old news.

DC

One of Many
09-03-2005, 06:44 PM
You Know DC, I think that the average value of a sine wave (I mean a perfect one : w/o harmonics) is exactly zero. The True Root Mean Square ( = effective value) of the same sinewave is not zero but : U(trms)=U(max)/1.41
1.41=square root of 2
The "RMS" voltage IS ABSOLUTELY NOT the average voltage, neither for a sinewave nor a squarewave. And a good DMM isn't based on the the average voltage (or current...), but on the (T)RMS one. I will develop my point of view (really not mine in fact) later because I first must to think how to explain that...I'm absolutely not an expert in serial devices communications but I think I know a something about the measurement of voltages and currents.

You are totally correct Patrick in all respects.

My only point in precaution was that some (older) analog meters if not including the RMS circuitry did do an averaging representation of AC to its DC equivalent. Thereby not a very reliable way to measure true RMS by their nature. Even more so with a square wave, given the duty cycle is not sinusoidal. Those meters were not calibrated or balanced to meet that specification. As I recall some warnings, anything other that 60 cycles would mess with them some too?

A good digital meter with TRMS circuitry does not have this issue for a true square wave or any other pure wave for that matter. Throw in some variable duty cycles within the signal as in a bit stream and the RMS for any one period within that bit stream would become useless information on questionable merit. Yet still proof the signal is there, all be that without proof of its data integrity.

To summarize the way you put it earlier. This is where a scope takes over and a meter leaves off in terms of seeing the signal with ones own eyes. Often times the meter measurements themselves won't reflect what we really need to know. Often, that leaves people scratching their heads wondering what to do with the information they see coming from a meter. Not knowing how to apply it, whether it is relevant or meaningless. That is why the RS232 tester were made. Pretty effective solution to keep it cheap and simple, short of having the luxury of a scope.



RMS and Analog Meter explanations (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_1/3.html)

DC

madmickiii
11-23-2005, 06:34 PM
Hi J M,

I purhased the same unit, had problems with it also, virtually the same description as to the device appearing to work correctly but not able to detect a PIC present.
Double check your soldering, theres some transistors near the rs232c port connection, I found one that was'nt soldered correctly and inserted the wrong way around :(, it works fine now :)

MIke

j m
11-25-2005, 06:38 AM
Hello mike
Iíll have to dig it out from the back of the cupboard, I had given up on it a bit. I will have another good
look at my soldering.
I had a thought the other day when you use the 18 pin socket do you keep the two jumper plugs on all the time? I remember trying to find out in the help file but could find it.

At least I can now rule out the serial port. I made loop back plug which worked and I have also bean programming PICís with it using PICAXE.

http://www.rev-ed.co.uk/picaxe/

svenakela
11-25-2005, 06:51 AM
Hey boys!

Now when we're talking PIC's, check this PIC simulator: http://www.oshonsoft.com/pic.html

--Sven

madmickiii
11-25-2005, 02:13 PM
Hi Jm,

If I rememeber rightly I think my soldering on the velleman kit was a bit dodgy around the on board switch, but that did'nt make any difference in the end, I had installed 2 of the transistors in the wrong location. I believe the transistors are there to translate the signal voltages from the RS232c format of 12 volts down to the 5 volts required by the logic circuits, mpu's etc, ( kicked myself something cronic when I realised what I had done).

As for the jumpers on the board, they are required for enabling the onboard timing device for the PIC chips and does require both to be in position on the socket being used to program the PIC's. The only one PIc device not to need this is the 8 pinned version and this relies on the internal osilator.

Best of luck with your PIC programming.

MIke


P.S The only reason I purchased the kit was to program PIC's for CNC controllers. NOt tha I have anything built yet lolol.

madmickiii
11-25-2005, 02:17 PM
Hey boys!

Now when we're talking PIC's, check this PIC simulator: http://www.oshonsoft.com/pic.html

--Sven
hey sven, looks like a good link there, I have been looking for a cheapish piece of software , the original MIcrochip developers stuff is on the expensive side.

Thanks

Mike

svenakela
12-09-2005, 05:25 AM
hey sven, looks like a good link there, I have been looking for a cheapish piece of software , the original MIcrochip developers stuff is on the expensive side.

Thanks
Mike

There are a couple of Linux open source projects too, I'll install and try these in a near future, http://sourceforge.net/projects/picmicrosim or http://www.dattalo.com/gnupic/gpsim.html

A report will come, any week, any year. ;)

svenakela
12-13-2005, 06:35 AM
Heeere we go again...

I decided to go for gpsim found at http://www.dattalo.com/gnupic/gpsim.html because its support for many different PIC's. It is a nice program but unupdated and that made the installation a hell, I had to install different versions of GTK+ end its extras, modules, dependencies and the source for popt and...
At least it's up and running. I was too tired to test anything when it was up so I will try to make a little report later on, hopefully christmas will give som spare time to play.

Anyway, I also found this Java-based simulator, http://www.feertech.com/misim/index.html that works fine in both Linux and MS.
There's an old release for free and it was very easy to install, just download the JRE_1.3 package and tadaa! The only thing I did was to edit the bat-file (yes, I did it in Windows) to point out correct Java. It has a lot of different examples and add-on components. Unfortenately the free version only supports 16C84 and there's no price on the newer releases.

--S

jblissett
01-04-2006, 08:09 AM
Hello,

the read/write LED on the K8048 lights up, but the software says “no device id received”
I have been having the same problem as Mike and j m with my velleman pic programmer. It allways says "no Device ID Recieved"

s6boy
04-01-2006, 01:40 PM
I too was having ďno device id receivedĒ messages. This shows that the PIC is not going into program mode.

I found the problem to be the way the board switches into Program mode. Figure 2.2, p6 in the PIC16F627A Programming Spec (DS41196E from the Microchip website) shows that Vpp needs to be raised to over 10V and held for 5us before 5V is applied to Vdd in order for the PIC to be placed into programming mode.

The switch that puts the K8048 into program mode rasies both the Vdd and Vpp at the same time. As there is no delay between setting the Vdd and Vpp pins the PIC does not enter program mode.
What the ďno device id receivedĒ message means (so I think anyway) is the board thinks it has put the PIC into program mode and ProgPIC sends a command to the PIC to reply to ProgPIC with its Id number (and other config data). But as the PIC is not in program mode it does not respond to the command and so the ProgPIC does not get the expected response to the command it sent out, causing the error.

To overcome the problem I had to modify the board. I broke the track between the switch and C8, and connected a BC547C transistor here with its collector going to the switch and the emitter to C8. This now creates a switch that will only allow 5V to get the PICs when there is a signal on the base. I also used a 4.7K resistor connected from the emitter to Gnd to pull down the voltage when the transistor is not conducting - although Im not quite sure if this is needed or if its value is too high but I thought i'd play safe.

Then from somewhere on the Vpp line, I tap off using a 4.7K resistor to the base of the BC547C. Also on the BC547's base I placed a 100nF capacitor with its other end connected to ground. When ProgPIC tells the PIC to enter program mode by setting the Vpp signal to 12V(via 3/9 and the switch being set to Program on the board) this signal is now fed via the resistor and capacitor to the base of the transitor. But because of the setup of the resistor and capacitor there is a delay in the signal at the base being strong enough to allow the transistor to conduct 5V to the Vdd pins of the PICs.

This now works fine for me, I havent tried the board in RUN mode tho as i aint interested in it. The value of the compents I used werent worked out, they were just ones that I had laying around. - But if u use different values, do not go to large as it will put the PIC into program mode too long after Vpp is set and ProgPIC will have already send its commmands.


Before I done this mod I did manage to program a PIC once, but I put this down to a fluke in the way the noise in flicking over the switch finished with Vdd becoming stable after Vpp

Hope this can help someone - my only thoughts are that on my understanding the board supplied cant work. But Im sure there are people out there that have got working models without having to mod it.

junke
10-21-2006, 08:33 PM
Hello,

I have been having the same problem as Mike and j m with my velleman pic programmer. It allways says "no Device ID Recieved"

I could solve the problem by placing the correct transistor (BC557 and not BC547) to T3 :-)

guest
11-04-2006, 03:47 AM
Just bought my K8084 and had exactly this problem. Could read OK at first but then would not erase, read or write. Problem was the PSU I was using. Regulated 12V - have since used a 15V PSU (borrowed from a lap top) and now works fine.

davesaudio
11-04-2006, 10:58 PM
The velleman appears to be JDM programmer but with internal volatage suppy for 5v and VPP.etc
check vpp IS AT LEAST 13V.
It is still a pin wiggler and less reliable than an intelligent programmer eg- wisp628 etc

what OS and what PC? Lappy? some chipsets stingy on levels and have sleep modes

tunde
06-11-2007, 01:34 AM
Hi,
I just got my new K808 programmer , but I could not make it work. When I trie to write to the Pic16F627, I get the message "No pic on board|Programmer must be set to PGM mode|PIC type mismatched with software... ", even if the switch is in PGM mode, the Pic is on the right place, and the settings are fine, as well.
I have on the /MCLR pin 12V, on the Vdd 5V and on the PGC and PGM 0V when I get the message.
I made myself the Rs232 cable, I have all the six used lines connected.
What could be the problem??????
Please help! :confused:

jblissett
06-11-2007, 12:01 PM
I fixed mine a while ago now. Turns out I'd put the 5v regulator in place of the other one and vice versa. So my advice is, check the board as thouroughly as possible.

tunde
06-13-2007, 07:07 AM
Hi!
I found the problem: it was something due to the XP. I tried on Windows 2000 and it workes fine, but I still cannot make it work on XP.

jblissett
06-13-2007, 12:52 PM
Hi!
I found the problem: it was something due to the XP. I tried on Windows 2000 and it workes fine, but I still cannot make it work on XP.

That's odd, it works fine for me on XP. Have you got the latest version of the software?

madmickiii
06-13-2007, 02:18 PM
Hi!
I found the problem: it was something due to the XP. I tried on Windows 2000 and it workes fine, but I still cannot make it work on XP.


Hi, so I assume you managed to get it working :rainfro:
But I am now confused :confused:

When I originally joined this thread it was to pass on advive from my experience with the programmer (constuction of).......

Mine worked fine in XP (Having been using XP since the first edition).
So I am totally :confused: ..........

Let me know if you manage to sort the XP problem out.....


Mike

The7thGuest
06-19-2007, 01:49 PM
XP likes to 'protect' its ports, so software cant write directly to the serial or parallel ports by default. There is a DLL or something that allows you to bypass it, maybe this is required for the operation. I myself have one of the kits, but I have had no probems so far.

Also, I noticed that I went out and paid around 40 euro for my kit in maplin, but the PICKIT 1 is available from microchip for less... as is the PICKIT 2 which also supports ICD.

*kicks himself*

tunde
07-10-2007, 02:16 PM
Hi! I find something that helped me. I changed the program compatibility mode, so it runs now in compatibil mode to Windows 98/Me, and now it works fine.
I hope this helpes others, too.

neilw20
07-10-2007, 04:23 PM
XP likes to 'protect' its ports, so software cant write directly to the serial or parallel ports by default. There is a DLL or something that allows you to bypass it, maybe this is required for the operation. I myself have one of the kits, but I have had no probems so far.

Also, I noticed that I went out and paid around 40 euro for my kit in maplin, but the PICKIT 1 is available from microchip for less... as is the PICKIT 2 which also supports ICD.

*kicks himself*

When you access a port, there is a bit table (low level somewhere). If the program has access to the port (bit set or not set. can't remember) you get direct access. If you don't have access, operating system intercepts I/O to port, and filters it. For example if it you try to read the port (probably 0x170) for an IDE drive, the system will intercept your access, and just return 0xff. It says the drive it is MINE.
You are not going to kill the disk drive, but if you access a port that the system allows, it may get filtered, translated, and actioned.
eg. Access a video register in a window which is a virtual screen, and it may seem like you are talking to the hardware, but the driver actually fakes all your port I/O. If you OWN the port, then it is yours. That is where something like a DLL or driver can setup. Some smart footwork in DOS can usually make it work too. GOOD LUCK.
Hard bit is fighting (for) the hidden or missing documentation...

vulcom1
07-12-2007, 12:57 PM
I have been reading this as I made one of these boards last year. Some of my observations was that the mclr pin requires 13 volts to be reliable for programing. I use a walwart 15 volt supply as reccomended. If you check the drop of the regulator you will see why they reccomend that voltage.
Also yesterday I downloaded an upgrade from the velleman site. It has a bug fix for winxp sp2.
I am trying to learn all this and along with some programing which makes for learning experiance.
John

nytechbuddy
07-28-2007, 06:51 AM
Hi.


After messing around with my laptop (Win2K) for hours getting the very same errors as everyone else, I finally got it working by disabling ActiveSync on my laptop. (You can uninstall it in Add/Remove Programs if you don't intend to use it - you can always re-install if you change your mind later). Seems it was hogging the COM Port (even though PIC Programmer was appearing to find the board).

Give it a go - My version of ActiveSync was 3.7 - I do use it, but I want to use the PIC Programmer more at the mo.

Good Luck!

et4bell
08-20-2007, 02:07 PM
The software requires an upgrade. Go to the Vellman site and download the new 2.6 version. I couldn't program anything and kept getting the same errors.. but downloading the update fixes it for XP...

Hope this helps

watchman
11-12-2007, 08:33 AM
HI, I'm wanting to have a go at making a sefvo controller and was thinking of using the ELM DC servo controller design at http://tinyurl.com/yur36m which uses the AT Tiny 2313 PIC chip. However, while the site has the firmware as assembler listing, I realise that I don't actually have any idea how to get it compiled and into the right places in the chip. The last time I did any chip burning was back in the 1960's when I was playing about with the very earliest home PC designs - 8K RAM and tape storage with the operating system all on Eproms! Can anyone please give me a clue as to how to proceed or point me to a site which may do the same... Thanks, Ian

MacGyver
11-14-2007, 12:24 PM
Download MPLAB from the Microchip website... free and easy to use. You'll still need a programmer, but there are plenty of inexpensive designs on the web.

smarbaga
11-14-2007, 03:45 PM
hello
i am in my spare time going to start with this platform.
it is untested and will no doubt need some modification,
but you are welcome to try it.
it has the current monitor from the uhu servo controller.
i have taken parts of the routines from microchip app an899
and applied it to there simulator.
no hardware proto type yet.
but i have the chips.

watchman
11-14-2007, 05:41 PM
Download MPLAB from the Microchip website... free and easy to use. You'll still need a programmer, but there are plenty of inexpensive designs on the web.

Thanks, I'll do that. Sorry about the double post but I didn't know which forum would be most appropriate.
Ian

Horsedorf
11-19-2007, 08:16 AM
Thanks, I'll do that. Sorry about the double post but I didn't know which forum would be most appropriate.
Ian

The AT tiny and ATMega processors are arm processors.. I don't think the MPLAB software will do you any good as the AT2313 is an AVR processor, not a PIC processor.. Your best bet would be to go to www.avrfreaks.net and see what you can dig up there in the way of an assembler or a c compiler etc for it.

Anyways, in GENERAL, you run the assembler to assemble the source code into object code. That is usually , with these small processors, also linked by the same application into a runable block of code. that runable block of code is then downloaded into the avr (or pic or what have you) and then you reset it and the micro will start running the code (Assuming everything is right for it to be able to do so.)

Good luck.

watchman
11-19-2007, 10:33 AM
The AT tiny and ATMega processors are arm processors.. I don't think the MPLAB software will do you any good as the AT2313 is an AVR processor, not a PIC processor.. Your best bet would be to go to www.avrfreaks.net and see what you can dig up there in the way of an assembler or a c compiler etc for it.

Thanks, I found an editor etc. there called WinAVR which looks like it will do the coding - now I just need to sort out a cheap programmer...

Ian

cjgaus
03-04-2009, 08:38 AM
I have made the pcb router board from the following site.

http://www.cq.cx/pcb-router.pl

My problem is i have converted the asm file to hex and loaded it to the PIC 16f877a but i can not compile the software.

Can anyone help me compile the software on the site or show me what software is available for this PIC.

Horsedorf
03-04-2009, 11:56 AM
I have made the pcb router board from the following site.

http://www.cq.cx/pcb-router.pl

My problem is i have converted the asm file to hex and loaded it to the PIC 16f877a but i can not compile the software.

Can anyone help me compile the software on the site or show me what software is available for this PIC.

It would appear that they wrote it in PIC assembler, all you need to do is go to www.microchip.com and download their MPLAB program which is a text editor / compiler / assembler all in one IDE. The assembler for it is free so you can assemble that program and turn it into a hex file you can load onto the processor easily with it.

Good luck.
HorseDorf

cjgaus
03-04-2009, 07:22 PM
Oh i have compiled the asm file with mpasm and converted it to hex and loaded it. Sorry my explenation of my problem was bad. My problem is i can not compile the software used for the pc. The software is a cnc router program but its all in different C files and i cant compile it.

Horsedorf
03-04-2009, 10:50 PM
Oh i have compiled the asm file with mpasm and converted it to hex and loaded it. Sorry my explenation of my problem was bad. My problem is i can not compile the software used for the pc. The software is a cnc router program but its all in different C files and i cant compile it.
OHHHHHH.. GOTCHA.. I THOUGHT, after reading your posting, that that might have been the case, but I wasn't sure. Yeah, that's a toughie cuz you need a c compiler, and to be honest *THE* c compiler they compiled with (possibly) if they used a bunch of custom library calls that are included in the c library that came with their compiler. I didn't look at the code, so I can't say for sure. Although you might see if you can find a freebie c compiler that compiles for the (pc?) platform it was written for and..just.. try it.

Hopefully there is a make file of some kind you can use that will build the thing for you.

sorry I can't be of much more help than that.

Horsedorf

cjgaus
03-05-2009, 12:54 AM
Thanks for ya reply yeah ive decided to use dev compiler and see how i go with it. Its a mess of a code lol.

Horsedorf
03-05-2009, 02:46 AM
Thanks for ya reply yeah ive decided to use dev compiler and see how i go with it. Its a mess of a code lol.

Such is the nature of freeware. You either pay for it with cash, or you pay for it with time and effort. At least by paying for it with time and effort, you learn new, good, useful things!

If you run into errors, feel free to post them here and I'll see if perhaps I can lead you to what the issue is. One thing I *HAVE* done a lot of is decipher compiler error messages. ;)

Horsedorf

degreaser
04-12-2009, 02:56 AM
Here are some nice open source tools I've encountered for PICs and the Velleman programmers.

Small Device C Compiler:

http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/

K8048 interface software for Linux/FreeBSD:

http://dev.kewl.org/k8048/Doc/

JAL (Just Another Language) v2 compiler for PICs. JAL is an easy to learn/use language specifically for PICs. Tons of libraries are available on the web and there are a few IDEs available as well.

http://www.casadeyork.com/jalv2/
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/jal/index.htm