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dwalsh62
11-29-2010, 09:04 AM
As many of you have found out, the round bodied chinese spindles are vanishing due to their marginal quality in favor of a square bodied spindle with significantly higher quality.

Since I received mine directly from the manufacturer and bought more than one, I paid less but I brought the information to you in another thread along with an ebay seller who will provide you the spindle at a reasonable/fair price.

Since my first cut with the new square bodied spindle, I have completely swore off the round bodied spindle in favor of this new beast solely based on it's performance to cut steel.

What you may not be aware of is that in part, I am responsible for some of the changes which brought about this square spindle design and now ebay is flooded with them and now you might get a cheap copy from another manufacturers who cut corners to make more profit and you end up with a substandard product.

I can run the air-cooled square spindle all day long at 5,000 RPM and the motor doesn't over heat (actual experience), the round bodied air-cooled spindle would over heat if I ran it at below 9,000 RPM (burned one up running at 6,000 RPM).

These spindles seem superior to the round bodied spindles and don't seem to suffer from over heating problems so water cooling isn't a requirement.

I bought the 3KW square spindle with dual ceramic bearings at each end and as far as I am concerned, it's worth the extra $40.00 to buy it with them.

The ATC spindle project involves a square bodied spindle with an ISO 20 socket making it an ATC spindle and should be available in 2.2KW, 3KW and 4KW versions starting around $1700.00 USD (subject to change).

The 2.2KW version will use an ISO 20 tool holder with an ER16 collet and the 3KW and 4KW version will use an ISO 20 tool holder with an ER20 collet.

A shift to producing a prototype and testing has occurred and it is my understanding that this process will take about 1.5 months before a final revision product has been realized and tooling for production will begin after that.

I'm hoping in the next two to three months the ATC spindle is completed and ready to ship, I should be the first to receive one and will be able to provide details and information.

If the ATC square spindle is anything like the current square spindle quality I might consider distributing these ATC spindles here in the US/Canada considering the cost of the currently available (cheap) ATC spindles is more than $3200.00 USD for a Columbo spindle (1.5HP) and an Avenger spindle is far too expensive to even consider unless your pockets are really deep.



CAUTION NOTICE FOR NON-ATC SQUARE SPINDLE

While the current 3KW square spindle is going for around $508.00 USD, this spindle does not have ceramic bearings, to get one with ceramic bearings cost about $50.00 more (I paid less than $400.00 USD including shipping to USA for a 3KW square spindle with ceramic bearings).

Someone I know has already experienced a cheap copy when they thought they were purchasing the good spindle for $30.00 less from another seller so make sure you are buying the good square spindle motor, ask to see pictures of the actual item you will receive and who the manufacturer is and do not rely on what is posted in an ebay auction, it's sad to see cheap copies of a good product coming from the same city.

Hyrum R
11-29-2010, 12:00 PM
I'm interested in a reasonably priced ATC spindle. Last time I looked at a Colombo ATC spindle, the price was way too far out of my budget. I'm interested to see what you can come up with. It might be just the thing I'm looking for for my new CNC I'm dreaming about.

dwalsh62
11-29-2010, 12:21 PM
I'm interested in a reasonably priced ATC spindle. Last time I looked at a Colombo ATC spindle, the price was way too far out of my budget. I'm interested to see what you can come up with. It might be just the thing I'm looking for for my new CNC I'm dreaming about.As with the current square spindle that took 5 months to make it to market, delays are probably inevitable as they work out design flaws but with the motor is already done it's just a matter of completing the ISO 20 socket assembly to replace the existing ER20 collet assembly (it's removable).

The only bigger issue I can for-see is that the current customer changes their mind about obtaining ATC spindles and then it's stuck waiting for a new customer because they wont proceed if I am the only other customer who wants 5 or 10.

It's a numbers game and companies in china wont produce a product on their own dime.

rusel
11-30-2010, 03:15 AM
dwalsh62
I have been looking into a new spindle but all the one I've seen do not recommend cutting steel.
Can you shed some light on this with you experience in steel cutting,What have you been cutting, tool used, speeds, rpm ,depth of cut, amount cut
Any help in this would be a great help

Thank
Russell

dwalsh62
11-30-2010, 06:02 AM
dwalsh62
I have been looking into a new spindle but all the one I've seen do not recommend cutting steel.
Can you shed some light on this with you experience in steel cutting,What have you been cutting, tool used, speeds, rpm ,depth of cut, amount cut
Any help in this would be a great help

Thank
RussellCutting speed, not sure how to calculate it but I was told it was set around 160 to 170 FPM (how I have no clue) in the cut file for the material I was machining (customers files and material).

I've been using 2400-3000 RPM (customer recommended 2600 RPM) with a 0.250in 4-flute end-mill and cutting 0.025in per pass (customer claimed 0.025in to 0.030in was sufficient for the tool and material) with coolant/lubricant and didn't break a tool.

Makes a small pile of metal sand every time I have to cut out a couple of parts from the 0.125in x 4.0in x 24.0in piece of galvannealed steel (new one for me but customer provides it).

On my own jet engine fuel pump project (engine used a dyson hand-held vacuum impeller but someone else made most of the parts) I tried a 2.00in face-mill (0.5in shank) at 2000 RPM on a 1.0in x 4.0in x 8.0in piece of mild steel (all I had at the time) but I had to replace the cutting tips often (five on it) since they would chip and then make lots of growling noise until I switched back to the 0.250in end-mill and did it the slow way, took a while to make a 0.625in x 4.0in x 8.0in block with a 0.0625in x 0.0625in recess in a 1.0in x 1.25in area for a silicon seal.

When I can figure out how to take off lots of meat I'll work on shaping the the pump but for now it works, just larger than needed and cosmetically dull.

Someone also told me I should make a zero plate, gave me a "TouchTouch.txt" file but that is all I could get out of them and I'm not sure what is in the plate since I never got an more details or instructions on what to do with the .txt file or if I even really need it (attached for reference/information).

Valen
11-30-2010, 05:53 PM
The file looks like a visual basic style program that looks like its sposed to auto set zero on Z.

given its VB I'll presume its for mach.

dwalsh62
12-13-2010, 05:01 PM
I've got so much on my plate right now and not enough hours in a day so I'm looking for some help making and testing some parts.

Most of the parts are made out of aluminum and shouldn't be too difficult to produce so if anyone in the US has some time and can help it would go a long way to concluding the design so that the manufacturer can tool for production.

Drawings are already done in AutoCAD 14 as DWG.

dwalsh62
12-23-2010, 05:20 AM
Well some parts are ready to be manufactured and prices negotiated which seem to be very attractive.
<table border=1><tr align=center><td width=200> Product Description </td><td width=200> Price (USD) </td><td width=200> Minimum Order (pcs) </td></tr><tr align=center>
<td>BT20-ER20 ToolHolder</td><td>36.50</td><td>100</td></tr><tr align=center>
<td>Pull Stud (ball type)</td><td>3.10</td><td>500</td>
</tr></table>

Now I can move on to other parts.

dwalsh62
12-23-2010, 06:08 AM
Anyone good at 3D drawings who can redraw some drawings for me?

Some of my drawings don't look so good in 2D and I'm no artist.

CarveOne
12-23-2010, 08:42 AM
That is a Visual Basic auto tool zero file for Mach3. There are little rectangles in the text that looks like carriage return locations. That's why it looks like continuous text in MS Notepad.

CarveOne

rusel
12-23-2010, 05:54 PM
dwalsh62
If you want some 3D rendering of your parts let me see your drawings and if it will not take to long I will run them up for you.

Russell

dwalsh62
12-23-2010, 06:42 PM
dwalsh62
If you want some 3D rendering of your parts let me see your drawings and if it will not take to long I will run them up for you.

RussellHi Russel, thank you, sent information in a PM for the air-cylinder.

A1CNC
12-24-2010, 09:02 AM
Hi Dave,
I have some free time right now and could probably help with some of your 3d drawings.

I would also be interested in looking at parts you need to have made. I have a shop and need to get some work.

Thanks,
Eric

judleroy
12-24-2010, 10:23 AM
If your trying to cut mild steel with a 2" facemill instead of 2000 rpm try something more in the line of 330-400 rpm. Feed at somewhere between 2-4ipm to start. You may find you have better luck. If your using coated carbide inserts you may be able to as much as double those feeds and speeds.
Judleroy

dwalsh62
12-24-2010, 06:59 PM
Hi Dave,
I have some free time right now and could probably help with some of your 3d drawings.

I would also be interested in looking at parts you need to have made. I have a shop and need to get some work.

Thanks,
EricEric, helping with drawings would be good but as nice as the offer is for making parts, I'm not offering work, what I am requesting is some assistance in building and testing small assemblies to make sure they will work with the ATC spindle currently being designed, namely the air cylinder, I've got my hands full with fans, clamps and drawbars that I just don't have the time to do all the pieces.

The only thing I can offer you is that when all is said and done and the spindle goes into production you can get one at cost as compensation for assisting in the development of the ATC spindle.

-- Dale

dwalsh62
12-26-2010, 04:37 AM
OK, got some help from a HAAS employee on making the gripper (tricks of the trade) so I machined out a couple on friday and dropped them off for cold-hardening so hopefully I'll be able to get them early in the week and test them.

I thought they used small 3mm shaft cutting tools with a 1.5mm bit on the tip and worked inside a 6mm dia hole, I wasn't aware that the internal profile was actually machined at a 3deg. angle using a 5.5mm end mill and rotating the material.

Before cutting the actual piece out of spring steel I made some measurements by trying it out on a piece of nylon and was surprised to see that a 5.5mm tool would cut a 9mm profile without moving the tool at all and that moving it .25mm while drawing it out made the cut straight and it never contacted the the 7mm DIA hole it was working in from the rear.

I wish I had been given that piece of information when I starting making this piece, it would have saved me a lot of time and grief.

dwalsh62
12-26-2010, 09:25 PM
Eric (or anyone else), I'm looking for some assistance.

If you have time, I need a part machined (2 pieces) in aluminum, part does not appear to be complicated (what do I know), will cover cost of material and shipping too me, would like to receive the parts as soon as possible so I can assemble and test.

A 2D drawing is attached of the part, while not shown in the drawing, the two notches can have a small radius, a seat with needle and spring goes into each notch and the notch is 0.6750in wide so square corners in the notch are not a requirement as long as the stainless spring seat with needle which is 0.6250in OD sits flat there is no issue.

No drilling or taping is required and a smooth external finish is needed but no need for polishing, assembled the part is not visible.

This piece slides into a 2.8000in square ID extrusion (it is square, no radius on corners) so the piece does not need external radius.

I am expecting to recieve the extrusion on wed. so if I could get the parts shortly after that it would allow me to test it and would help me a lot.

Any changes you make to the drawing will need to be returned for the manufacturer.

dwalsh62
01-13-2011, 03:40 PM
While help in making and testing parts has been extremely scarce, I did get some help with 3D drawings and I've been focused on building and testing the critical components and as long as I don't experience any serious setbacks or delays, when I go to China on Jan 31st, 2011 to meet with the manufacturer I'll be bringing along the CNCZone mini-VMC with the prototype ATC spindle and some extra sub-assemblies for demonstration purposes and to aid in tooling.

The only issue I can really see is that my mini VMC is not cast as projected or that I run into some kind of mechanical issue with the spindle that I am unable to overcome before my trip.

dwalsh62
01-27-2011, 05:11 PM
I've been crushing ball clamps like candy at 95psi air pressure and I just realized a calculation error which explains why the 75mm DIA piston didn't supply enough force and the dual 70mm DIA pistons way too much.


I had been using
A = (DIA) * (π)
F = (A) * (PSI)


When I should have been using
Rsquared = (R) * (R)
A = (Rsquared) * (π)
F = (A) * (PSI)

values given in live example.
2 * 2 = 4 (Rsquared)
4 * 3.14159 = 12.56636 (A)
12.56636 * 80 = 1005.3088 (F)

(stacked 70mm pistons compensated for loss of area from rod)
2.6775 * 2.6775 = 7.1690062 (Rsquared)
7.1690062 * 3.14159 = 22.522078 (A)
14.330127 * 80 = 1801.7662 (F)

Live test measured value was 1,137.9584 (avg of 3 test).

I was shooting for a spring force of 670.00lbs (3000N) and got 1801.7662lbs (7721.8861) and at 90psi it's 2027lbs (8687N) far more than needed so I really only need a dual stacked 45mm pistons or a single 82mm.

On a sadder note, I was expecting the ATC spindle and some cast pieces to be ready for my trip to China, looks like I wont be making the trip for business purposes (to late to cancel), the cast pieces are not done and I can't get a status on the parts cause Scott is MIA and no one answers at the business.

I was thinking if I worked non-stop, I might be able to get the spindle completed functionally and fabricate the other pieces out of steel and weld it all together but when I weigh the amount of time required it's so close that any problems would cause the cancelation so I'm going to save myself the headaches and put it off, I can't reschedule the tooling and with nothing completed it's pointless to go for anything but a vacation.

For me it means that I will complete the ATC spindle when I get back and then work on a rear nylon cover and then I can enjoy the benefits of it but it would be at least another 6 months before the next tooling and if I haven't gotten board from waiting and moved on to something else I can have it produced at that time.

I do realize that people were looking forward to it but waiting for pieces that should be done and ready is the reason that the project will be shelved because I can't take an incomplete product and show that it works when pieces are missing and this might have been avoided if people offered to build and test components ensuring things were done on schedule and I got the pieces from those who were supposed to be making them so, me completing 80% of the physical work because no one else produced what they said they would and the only real assistance I received was with 3D drawings which I really didn't need as much as the parts, the project is incomplete and doesn't coincide with the tooling schedule which can't be altered and that is where things stand for now.

advt001
01-28-2011, 10:38 AM
I THINK THE DEATH OF MY FATHER IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR DAMN ATC .
HELL NO I WOULD NOT TAKE YOUR CALL AT GRAVE SIDE AND CONSIDER THAT
JUST RUDE AS HELL!

SCOTT

tskguy
01-28-2011, 06:21 PM
Scott,

Truly sorry about your loss, but a simple message on your business's voice mail explaining your situation would have done you some good here. I understand that a loss of your father is truly devastating but your all caps response to someone who had no clue of your current situation is rude at best.
Now if Dwalsh62 new of your loss your response is appropriate.

My condolences,

Pplug
01-29-2011, 10:03 AM
Death = Stress

Stress = Mistakes

rusel
01-29-2011, 10:56 PM
Scott
Sending my condolences to you and your family. Be strong

I do hope that it is only a misunderstanding with dwalsh62

Russell

dwalsh62
01-30-2011, 12:27 AM
I THINK THE DEATH OF MY FATHER IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR DAMN ATC .
HELL NO I WOULD NOT TAKE YOUR CALL AT GRAVE SIDE AND CONSIDER THAT
JUST RUDE AS HELL!

SCOTTI don't believe it is anything more than misunderstandings and confusion caused by the stress over his loss and I hold no ill thoughts over the incident or towards him, **** happens in life and you just have to grin and bare it.

From my perspective, Scott, we spoke monday night, you said you were going home wednesday and you would call me wednesday night, when I received no call wednesday night or a return call for the messages I left thursday during the day how is that be construed as rude since I wasn't aware that your plans had changed?

Several weeks ago I explained the importance of the work being done before anything happened, I asked you to call me on the phone if there are delays or issues that would affect delivery and I had to find out after the fact on the following monday night through e-mail that you had an issue to deal with which at the time of your writing was not a loss but a notice that time is near and that you would be back monday or tuesday.

I am not a mind reader and getting bent out of shape because I called at a time which was not good for you (I was unaware of this) and later when you were to call me you didn't for whatever valid (acknowledged) reason.

I can sympathize with your loss, but the lack of communication and working under a dictated schedule that I can not alter (which I explained to you) forces me to make decisions regarding my trip to China and as a courtesy to those interested in the ATC spindle I offered an explanation based on the information I had as to why the project was being delayed because you know, people will be complaining because it's not available as predicted.

For the last three weeks I have spent pretty much every waking hour trying to get things done to take to China because that is the schedule set by the manufacturer that I have to work under.

As you know, I lost a week of work at the beginning of January due to my stupidity of attempting to make my own cut files or I should say lack of ability to make cut files that work properly and I destroyed two mill tables because it decided to move the tool through the table to move it to a different location because I didn't step through the entire cut file to make sure it was good and fired up two machines simultaneously (the reason why I have someone else make the files for me) and this didn't prevent the majority of the work from being completed.

As I said, I can sympathize with your loss but it's hard to make compensations and adjustments when you don't know what's going on and can't contact anyone.


Scott and I have since talked and I believe everything is in good standing so suffice it to say, the status has changed and this is what has been decided, I am going to go ahead to China, the parts are being made and delivered middle of next week, they will be assembled and shipped to me in China which allows just enough time with the manufacturer for the demonstration of functionality and disassembly of the components and to go over the drawings and answer questions.

Scott has assured me the cast pieces will be done and shipped, final assembly before shipping to China has been scheduled and is a top priority (all other work stops when the parts come in).

I will have to trust that these things are under control and will be handled in my absence because I wont be around to do anything about it and it is a risk I have to take, this gives me three days with the spindle and manufacturer before I return which is sufficient time so we should be OK.

The ATC spindle has been cycling tool holders for 49 continuous hours (1872 changes - roughly every 1.5 minutes) without a single issue, remeasured force is 669lbs, just down from 672lbs so loss is well within acceptable limits (630lbs is the minimum) and this leave me time today to add the recessed safety lock C-clips to the linear slides for the air-cylinder and a little clean-up on the exterior of the body and then pack it for transport.

I don't have time to make a rear cover to hide the air-cylinder and electric fan so I will leave this to the manufacturer to make something appropriate.

So far this is what I have: 3.0KW BT20 ATC spindle
square body.
integrated spindle mount.
120mm x 120mm x 250mm (size grew just a little).
4 pole (8 pcs) silicon magnet (subject to change).
statically balanced (manufacturer will dynamically balance).
100 - 9000 RPM - 11A @300hz / 100 - 12000 RPM - 14A @400hz.
240VAC 90mm x 90mm x 38mm Electic Fan Cooling (37CFM air-flow - subject to change - I used what I could find quickly).
46db noise (like a computer fan).
16 position (subject to change) linear R&P BT20 tool holder changer with optical safety and position sensors.
a DIY (USA made courtesy of Scott) desktop vertical mill to mount the spindle and linear changer (also to be made available in kit form to anyone who wants it).

While I used cold-hardening due to it's availability/accessibility to me, the manufacturer will be using traditional hardening methods which are more than adequate for the spindle needs.

The only thing that can cause a problem now will be the non-delivery of the assembly to me in China so all I can do is keep my fingers crossed that nothing comes up that people can't handle on their own.

My contact while in China will be quite limited so people wont be hearing from me until my return however, I will try to get online and provide an update on the status of things if and when I can.

osphoto
01-30-2011, 01:06 AM
Glad to hear the ATC Spindle is moving forward!

I'm sure there are many of us waiting patiently for this spindle.

Thanks for the update!

dwalsh62
02-09-2011, 06:55 AM
My trip has been cut short due to circumstances beyond my control which are not yet entirely clear, it will take me a few days to look into things and then I will leave a detailed post outlining the status of the project.

dwalsh62
02-10-2011, 07:23 AM
The ATC spindle and vertical tool changer are on temporary hold and if you know anything about chinese culture you will understand better than most how my failure to plan properly has impacted the project and affected others.

I made arrangements to have a machine made to hold the weight of the components because a Proxonn or shireline are too flimsy however, I didn't allow sufficient time to cover casting issues because of my selection of material (steel vs iron) or delays affecting delivery and well, here in the US, if something is delayed and not delivered on time it's not a serious thing but in a culture where honor and integrity are the backbone of society, failure to produce on time is a serious matter and is seen as a sign of poor honor and integrity which has serious repercussions so my failure to deliver has placed my friend in an uncomfortable situation and the full extent is still unknown to me.

My current struggle now is in making an effort for my friend to save face and I'm not even sure if this is possible but I will make an effort to do this just the same.

I can only blame myself for the failure as a result of poor planning and yes, I can find all kinds of excuses like the lack of help in making parts but this doesn't change the fact that the machine would not have been done on time no matter what I planned, the person making the cast parts did everything he could to make the parts and continued to make the parts after I had already left in the hopes that the machine could be assembled and delivered to me but since this was the first run there was no way he could have known what problems he would have to resolve so I can't blame him and the week I lost due my own stupidity still wouldn't have allowed enough time to have the parts cast properly.

Obviously I didn't get to make the retooling and so the best I can hope for is to make things right for my friend (or as much as I can) and hopefully meet the July retooling schedule.

At this time I have one ATC spindle that has been well tested and a vertical tool changer that also works well but looks rather ugly and with the bulk of the work done, cosmetics are the only thing left to do.

I'll be able to use the time to making the ATC spindle more attractive in appearance and make covers for the tool changer to hide the R&P but those will have to wait until I have done my best to make things right for my friend who has been severely affected by my inability to produce as promised and I recognize that this all falls on me with no one else to blame for the failure.

I realize many people will be disappointed and all I can do is offer an apology for my incompetence in handling this project.

Sky Gazer
07-12-2011, 08:42 AM
....The ATC spindle project involves a square bodied spindle with an ISO 20 socket making it an ATC spindle and should be available in 2.2KW, 3KW and 4KW versions starting around $1700.00 USD (subject to change).

The 2.2KW version will use an ISO 20 tool holder with an ER16 collet and the 3KW and 4KW version will use an ISO 20 tool holder with an ER20 collet.

A shift to producing a prototype and testing has occurred and it is my understanding that this process will take about 1.5 months before a final revision product has been realized and tooling for production will begin after that.

I'm hoping in the next two to three months the ATC spindle is completed and ready to ship, I should be the first to receive one and will be able to provide details and information....

Any news on this front?

IBICO
10-17-2017, 10:36 AM
Any news on this front?

Waking this from the grave with the same question

skrubol
10-18-2017, 02:45 PM
Chinese ATC spindles in this power and price range are now pretty available. I haven't read anything on how good they are though. Not too surprising, I wouldn't want to drop $2000 on something that might be crap.

Goemon
10-19-2017, 04:03 PM
Good on you for trying to bring a new (and needed) product to market when you saw a gap. Most people will say something like "somebody should make a xx, there would be a huge market...." and then just get on with their day. It takes an entrepreneur to be that "somebody".

I feel your pain in dealing with Chinese manufacturers. It's one of the hardest and most frustrating places to buy from if you don't have local people over there to help. I can also relate to the stress of managing customer expectations with delays to product launches. I never take orders (or talk about) new products before I am ready anymore. It's too hard to predict how long it will take to solve all the problems you don't know about yet.

on the square vs round spindle thing, I am not sure that the shape is what makes a difference. Based on what I have read, a square housing might allow then to use a larger motor and fan but it doesn't guarantee it. It's exactly the sort of trick that Chinese vendors like to exploit. They used to do something similar with cameras. Good cameras were heavy so they put weights in crappy cameras to make them feel less cheap.

The outside casing is just that, as your friend found out. It doesn't mean much on it's own. You can put the cheapest round spindle in a square or triangular box without changing the cutting capability one bit. You can also put crappy bearings in a square spindle and quality ones in a round one.

The diamater and length of the motor does effect torque and therefore cutting capability. I am no expert but I have read enough to know that, for cutting metal, you want a large high torque motor. A larger motor delivers more torque than increasing the power consumption or speed . Most mills and CNC mills use a seperate motor for this reason. I.e. They can use a larger one than would be possible in units with integral motors.