just wanted to warn others about the new 104/d control. We have a 4020 with it and just got the new 1.05. software after many months of suffering with a machine that is a liability!! The new software is NOT a cure for many of the problems!! After one day with it I find that at random times it doesn't continue to read a G0 and begins to feed to I don't know where to. After totally restarting the machine this problem goes away for awhile, but the side affect is all tool positions are lost :( and some random heigth offsets are zero'd out. So basically you have to recheck and reset everything again (set-up again)!!! I will continue to post any problems with this machine until ALL of the problems are resolved with it. I have been told for the past six months that these machines run great, but from what I read there aren't many at all that do if any.

Fadal has pulled the 104D off the market. According to my local dealer, customers with the 104D on their machines will have it replaced with either the Fanuc or the Siemens. If you go to Fadal's website there is no longer any mention of the 104D. Should have worked out the bugs before rushing to market.

Thanks for the info!!! Our dealer hasn't mentioned this to us at all. In fact quite the opposite, they say that all of them are running great except ours. I think I'll just contact the factory to find out for sure, and bypass the big talkers.

Mark

Let us know what happens.

We have a 4020 that won't die. It's a 1988 model. Just the normal maintainence. Replacing drawbar beleville washers a couple of times and an axis control motor or two. Over 17 years it's made it's money back quite a few times. We have two 6030s, and a 8030 also. They all have the standard Fadal controls on them. I've been considering replacing the old 4020 with a new machine, and the 104D control was what I had in mind. This thread is making me reconsider.

My 4020s have also been stone reliable, with no controller problems at all. I've also replaced the bellville washers a few times, 1 refrigerant pump, spindle belts, way lube lines and some misc normal wear items, but thats just normal wear. No major problems except for a spindle, and that was because of a crash. The total cost of all replacement parts is nowhere near the cost of replacing a few boards in a couple of Makinos we used to have. So I'm happy. The best upgrades we've done to our machines are the -5 controller and Pozi-drive upgrades. Haven't replaced a belt since.

If you do buy a new Fadal they list the MP controller as the standard controller.

Definitely go with the mp32 controller if possible!! They are a tried and true controller that allows you to use the windows side at the same time the machine is making parts. Unlike the 104/d wich you have to log off of to get in to program on gibbscam, which we were lied to about (that and many other things).

Mark

Just another update on this control. We got fadal's newest version of software about a month ago, and everything seemed to work great for a while. No critical errors or other past problems until lately. The rigid tap does not always work correctly and a spindle orientation error happens randomly and requires you to power the machine completely down to fix it. Not to mention the broken taps and bad parts this causes. It also has a random internal error that causes the machine and control to completely lock up causing you to restart the machine again. What we thought was fixed just seems to be temporary and the faults keep getting more and more frequent like a bad case of mono!

Man........when are they going to get it right

I currently have the 104d control on my new 4020 and am also having some issues with it. I am curious as to which control, Siemens or Fanuc, you would recommend. Any insite would be greatly appreciated...

I currently have the 104d control on my new 4020 and am also having some issues with it. I am curious as to which control, Siemens or Fanuc, you would recommend. Any insite would be greatly appreciated...

Before you run out of warrantee, have Fadal Engineering come out and take it back... Then, if you are willing to continue to buy from Fadal buy one with a Fanuc control. The Siemens is a better control, but the fanuc is more common. You'll find more machinist that can operate it than you will with the Siemens...

Good luck,

THIS IS A RECENT MESSAGE I SENT FADAL.
I COULDNT FIND THIS WEB SIGHT FOR A LONG TIME.
SHOULD HAVE PAID MORE ATTENTION TO ALL OF U GUYS LAST YEAR
WHEN I RAN ACROSS IT WHILE I WAS SHOPPING FOR A MACHINE.

To Whom It May Concern:
I would like to say at this point I’m very disappointed with this controller, in
fact I’m totally fed up. I can’t trust the machine to do the simplest task.

I have been programming and making parts on CNC equipment for the past 28
years. This 104/D control has been the most frustrating experience in my entire
time as a machinist.

Take this simple little program for example.

N1 O1
N2 M6 T1
N3 E1 G0 G90 X0 Y0 S2000 M3
N4 H1 Z.1
N5 G1 Z-.1 F50.
N6 G1 G41 G91 X1.
N7 G3 I-1.
N8 I-1.
N9 G1 G40 X-1.
N10 G0 G90 Z.1
N11 M5
N12 H0 Z0
N13 E0 X0 Y0
N14 M2

Using cutter comp, I should be able to make a 2 inch hole with a
1 inch cutter, and do a spring pass. First of all; the machine never makes the second pass around. It skips over N8. Second; it dose not use cutter comp correctly, loosing it before the canceling move (gouging the part) and then picking it back up later showing an axis shift at the end of the program.

This machine is supposed to be high speed processing, I don’t see much difference in it and other machines I’ve run. And in this day and age why am I so limited with the size of the program?
If I had gotten this machine for mold making, it would not have been on our floor a week. It dose not live up to the claims.

Let me say it one more time, I cannot live with these issues regarding programming. I have to get the results that I expect or I will always be reluctant to attempt any high $$$$$$$$$ parts on this machine.
I have to have a machine I can trust.

Let me go down the list of things that have plagued this machine.

1. While tapping a 1-12 thread in steel the machine stalled out.
I don’t know if it ran out of torque or the belts slipped,
Who knows I don’t have a load meter. Regardless, I got the high
torque option. It should be able to tap a 1-8 in steel with no problem.
2. Program picks up feed rate of next block before it gets there.
3. Tool release button needs a delay.
4. No loop counter on sub program repeat.
5. Program must be re numbered before M00 or M01 will work consistently.
6. Single block dose not activate right away, and is not consistent in the way that it works.
7. Spindle and coolant used to come back on automatically after opening the doors. Now it doesn’t.
8. Can’t shut off spindle when single block is activated.
9. Program skips over blocks of information.
10. Gibbs SFP can’t be used while machine is running. Who is going
to use it if you have to shut the machine side down?



Problems that were fixed.

1. M4 remains modal.
2. X axis has not run off like it did 5-25-05.


Sincerely,

I know what you mean about all of the problems, there are just to many to list on this page. Thier software upgrades are a joke and cause more unassociated problems than they fix! We are simply tired of dealing with it and told them to remove the machine within a week or it will be sitting outside in the rain. It has cost us thousands of dollars and backed us up on shipping dates beyond comprehension. I don't care what brand of machine takes its place as long as it makes good parts consistantly. At this point I can make good parts faster on an old manual bridgeport!! pathetic!! At this point I don't want a fadal machine on the floor period due to the fact that fadal engineering's support system is mass caos!

Mark

Just want to let everyone know that thru the sales rep Fadal has given us 3 options
regarding the 104/d control. And they will do the same for anyone else I'm sure.

1. Wait for next release on software (maybe mid December).

2. Retrofit with the MP control. takes 3 to 5 days.

3. Or wait 8 weeks for them to build a new machine with a Fadal MP control,
Fanuc, or Siemens control.

Any good advise out there to help me decide? I know about Fanuc but what
would the learning curb be for Siemens. And how bug proof is the MP control?

Thanks MJ

I run a 3 month old fadal 4020 with a fanuc, i like it a lot.

I would ask for a new machine with the fanuc, the control is very stable. funny thing is even though it has encoders fadal still installs the line up tabs, i guess old habits are hard to quit.

Thanks for your input. I was leaning towards Fanuc. I have liked
the controls sense the 6MB.

We will make the decision today.

Sincerely MJ

mj

Well, I bought Mad Marks new 4525 with the Fanuc control. I'll let you guys know
how the transition goes in my shop. Install begins Monday. Anyone have any comments on how the fanuc control differs from the ORIGINAL fadal 88hs or 32MP control? Good or Bad?

Hi guys,
I have run both Fanuc and seimens contollers over the years. Both are great. But I think the siemens is a little better. I will have to agree with scott bob. When our guy
running the siemens quite, I interviewed for 3 weeks and never found someone with experince with it. Had to get the books out and learn it myself. But on the upside, when I left that job, it only took me 2 days to train a replacment. So the siemens is easy to teach if you know what you are doing.

My 2 cents
Dalen Mealer

Any updates from those with the 104/D. Did you have your machines updated with new controlls or replaced?

Dear Turbo,

We Are Should Be Getting A Replacement Machine Within The Next
Month. We Went With The Fanuc Control. The 104/d Is A Real Thorn
In My Side.

Mj

I'm surprised that Fadal is still selling anything with the 104/d controller. Their reputation with people using this controller is really getting slammed. Our small shop just acquired a remanufactured 4020 with the 88hs controller (standard, no cost option) about 3 weeks ago and there have been NO issues. Our needs are fairly simple, lots of drilling, tapping and conventional 2d contouring and milling. This machine has the rigid tapping option.

I retired out of a shop that had 3 Fadals, two with the 88hs controller, and one with the 32mp controller with the built in Gibbs software. We did lots of 3d contour work their (patterns) and likewise, had no controller or compatibility problems. I'm unfamiliar with the Fanuc and Seimens controllers, so can't speak about them.

I think I read in one of these forums that Fadal only has about 75 - 80 of these 104-d controllers out in the field. If that is true, they would probably be smart to simply satisfy the customers and replace or retrofit those machines, eh?
fredstev

Unfortunately we purchased our machine just a few weeks before it was taken off the market. At the time it was advertised as the greatest control ever. I wish I had found this forum earlier :frown:

MJ:

<<We Are Should Be Getting A Replacement Machine Within The Next
Month. We Went With The Fanuc Control. The 104/d Is A Real Thorn
In My Side.>>

How did you go about convincing them to replace your machine? Did you go to Fadal directly, or was it through your distributor? We are having our own 104/D nightmare.

Thanks for any advice on what "buttons to push" to get them to do the right thing here.

David

It will help you if you mention to Fadal that you gained support from the "community" here on CNCZone. This internet site has been helpful for a lot of individuals rights of gaining the benefit of information. It is extremely helpful when you realize you're not alone, or crazy! In fact, all the fault is on Fadal. Take confidense in this.

Go for it,

I just found this website - I wish I would have known about it sooner; I could have warned you all about the 104D! (I bought the 6030 off Westec floor in Feb.'04) We finally got it running correctly in May of 2005, but yes, it still has bugs. We too are going to take Fadal up on their offer of replacing the control, but I gotta say we're going to hate losing the USB Memory stick port - that thing is handy! Does the Fanuc or Siemens control offer a USB port like that? If not, I'm going to be forced to run RS232 cable...which means updating my Rocketport (since it's already maxed out running 8-CNCs)... which means the pain of re-installing all that software... UGH! Please tell me Fanuc or Siemens has that option!

Dear Jake,

We are getting the Fanuc control on our replacement machine.
They come with a flash card memory (optional) 512 MB. Make sure
you get that, and also make sure they are giving you all the same
stuff that you got with the 104/D. Ie Rigid tap, etc.

From what I understand Fanuc also gives a really stripped down basic
control, and ofcorse all else costs $$$$. Get it while you can or forever
hold your peace.

MJ

Are you paying extra to get the Fanuc control? We we're told that the only replacement option was the Fadal Legacy control.

There were 4 different controls available for the same price when we purchased
the machine. 104/D, Legacy, Fanuc, and Siemens. They now offer a retrofit Legacy
control in place of the 104/D installed at your facility. We refuse to settle for a
retrofit. Sense I'm more familliar with Fanuc I went with it, but I bet the Siemans is
the best???

I am doing some Programming to test there 5axis setups for them and while I was out at Fadals office, I was talking to them about this 104d Machine Control that one of my customers has and they showed me the back lot full of the one's they bought back from the customers. As you guys all ready know they are pulling all of those machines back and offering the new Fanuc option.

They feel really bad but are standing behind there customers.This is a great thing.

The next few weeks are going to be very interesting regarding how Fadal handles the 104D exchange program, as I have some serious problems with them coming to my shop and replacing my control for "free." After all, I paid top dollar for the fastest controller, and now I'm only getting back a legacy with a 4MB memory upgrade?

And regarding the 4MB memory, I have a question: All of the programming we do in our shop is complex 3D curved surfaces - we're a pattern shop utilizing Mastercam - and all of our programs are drip-fed using Multi-DNC Software through RS232 ports. Is 4MB of memory going to do me any good? In other words, does 4MB of memory allow the controller to look farther ahead in the program so we can speed up our feedrates without the controller "stuttering" or is the 4MB only good for program storage?

Just an update on our 104/d problems. Fadal replaced our machine with what they said was a used machine while a new 4020 with the old controller was being built. When they said used they should have said wore out!!!!!!!! The mill they sent had they z axis ways wore so much it couldn't sweep the table better than .050"!!!! We told them to get it out before it was even set up!!!!! They gave us a 3016 that was new remanufactured with the 88 control, and umbrella tool carousel. It worked great, and the new 4020 with the mp32 control, and 24 dual arm tool changer finally came and also works flawless. We ended up buying the 3016 from them since it was already installed, and both after three months of continuous use work like they're supposed to, alomost a year to the day after the 104/d showed up!!!!! Why they ever put that control out to the public I have no idea but I do know that to get it out of your shop you have to be very, very stern!!! In my opinion that controll will never work correctly due to the total disorganization that went on with the engineering team working on it. If you check alot of the canned cycles will not work properly or at all and they don't seem to care.

Mark

cadcam: "They feel really bad but are standing behind their customers.This is a great thing."

Interesting... When the management of the corporate giant Enron were caught cooking the books, were you one of those folks who made excusses for their behavior? Thousands of employees who were innocent of any wrong doing lost their jobs and pensions. The trial is going on right now...

Seriously, why should we give Fadal Engineering a pass on this one? Is the small shop out there any different than the innocent Enron employee who now is stuck with no pension, and valueless company stock, because of a few dishonest managers?

I don't have the ansewers, but I have many crititsizms and questions. When Fadal came out with their new control, we had them do a test cut on one of our parts. At already confirmed high feed rates the machined part that they made was way out of tolerance. So we sent the inspection data to them and waited for a response. None came... That was the last time we tried to work "with" Fadal on new technology.

MidfieldJake,
You hit on something that I think is one of Fanuc's severe limitations, onboard CNC program memory. All surface based CNC programs are large, most larger than the 4MB you mention. On a Fanuc, you have to use DNC internally or externally because you cannot buy more than 2MB of "CNC program memory". On a legacy Fadal you can both afford and buy 16MB which I think is minimum for work like you discribe. Both Fanuc and the Fadal will stuggle with DNC data starvation and all those limitations. Check out the BPT Test documents here on CNC Zone to read more...

Good luck,

MidfieldJake the 4mb will do nothing for the look ahead in the control just gives you more space to load a program.

The DNC will take care of what you need. How big is the average program that you right?
Putting the M8 in the program is supposed to help the 88 control but in plane change arcs I have seen them over travel a bit.

Are you filtering the programs using the Tolerance setting in MC to out but less data and filter in arcs when it is able to?

Scott_Bob
(Interesting... When the management of the corporate giant Enron were caught cooking the books, were you one of those folks who made excusses for their behavior? Thousands of employees who were innocent of any wrong doing lost their jobs and pensions. The trial is going on right now...) Now Enron execs were straight out screwing people.
Fadal is not trying to screw you they are at lest coming up to the bat instead of saying sorry this is what you get and like it.
I am also not a fan of the Fadal never have they are all right.
But this is just my opinion
So I do find it interesting that you attack me for making my statement.

I have to respect them for recognizing that they have failed and replacing the machines. Of course, the alternative is to try to hold the fort and go out of business in a few years, which this episode may do for them anyway. But it happens all the time, management is not willing to accept they have made a mistake, they tough it out, and customers walk.

It's not easy to develop a new control, which is why you are struggling with puny memory on the fanucs. They are probably paying premium for those small memory chips because they are not the latest thing. If it was easy to develop a new control, they'd come with 2 gigs on the latest processors.

OK, where do I start? HAHA

Mad Mark, when you had them get your 104D machine out of your shop, did you pay for the rigging, crating, and loading of the machine? I ask because the forklift we rented (when we bought our 6030) was too tall for our building, so of course we had to dolly the machine over... which was an 8-hour adventure. (Yes, we even had to install a "skylight" into our attic so the Z-axis didn't punch a hole in the ceiling! HAHA)

Scott bob: Yes, I think we'll probably stick with the "legacy" controls, on the exchange. I've heard the Siemens is very nice, but for the work we do, I was told that we needed the Siemens with the "mold" package, which is $10,000 additional.

cadcam: Yes, we run the filter on Mastercam, and even after filtering, the programs average 2-3MB roughing, and 10-30MB finishing. (We just finished making 2 - 48"x48" molds for industrial fans) Also, thank you for verifying the memory is only for part storage.

To all: I don't know what the answer is regarding Fadal's enormous blunder. Hindsight is 20/20, and so far they are trying to make things right. I say "so far", because I haven't finished my final negotiating with Fadal on my replacement control. But believe me, if I feel even a little bit "slighted" at the final outcome, the Fadal will leave my shop and Haas will be put in. And with me already owning 7-Fadals (and about to purchase another machining center - brand to be determined) I don't think that's a gamble Fadal will want to make. I do appreciate everyone's input on this subject - your experience in this matter is helping me to make a more informed decision. And as you all know, if we don't keep making the right decisions in manufacturing, we're going to be swallowed up by overseas competitors.

The Enron scandal is in the courts so we don't know what the verdict is yet on managements behavior. But from what we know of so far, they were hiding debt from the shareholders, banks, irs in offshore accounts. Enron was a multinational company with locations all over the world (offshore). The senior managers suggested what to do to the accountants, who followed orders... Ethics guidlines should have prevented them from lawbreaking, but they all thought they could get away with it. I'm not sure but I think someone inside finally informed. The right thing to do...

What's my point? They all knew what they were doing wrong.
You don't think that Fadal did not know what they were doing? I think they did.
They assumed they'd get away with it. It's not as easy to pull the wool over our eyes out here in the mfg community now that we have the internet. Without this information tool, those of us with 104d control CNC's would not be as informed.

Thanks CNCzone,

I'm impressed by the level of experience here. Fadal might not be :)

It would be interesting to know who screwed up. On first glance, it would appear that there should be some software guys looking for jobs, but, in the end, its management's fault.

Once I was in a meeting where the big boss threw a pencil down on the table to make a point because an engineer wanted to run another test. Managers hate to pay for tests. Of course, the point would have been made better if the pencil hadn't bounced off of the eraser and flown across the room. We all would have been scared more about making him mad if it weren't for the fear of getting stabbed by that pencil.

Enron came out when the game they were playing finally crashed on them, not before. The crooked deals that Enron was making are just amazing, I doubt there has ever been anything like it outside the mob. Fadal, on the other hand, is in a business where very few people would actually miss them if they went under, everyone would move on. And I'm thinking there are some people in China dreaming of putting them under. So shipping this control was an incredible blunder, but it's human nature to try to insist that your product is ok, and infer to your customers that they are idiots.

Unterhaus is correct in saying that the 104D was the fault of management, but I think the underlaying cause was the change in management. Fadal started as a "mom and pop" type of operation. For more than 30 years, they flew "by the seat of their pants" yet it was never an issue. Engineering was done by just a few capable people and management was able to "put out fires" on the fly.
When G&L took over, and subsuquently sold to Thyssen, Francis and sons Adrian, Dave And Larry were replaced by boards of executives who don't understand the product which they are making and need to conference when problems arise. In the old days, most problems were adressed by the time dessert got to the table.

midfield jake,

Yes after a lot of very stern words fadal took care of all frieght, rigging and set-up of three machines. We paid for the first one (the 104/d) they paid to have the used 4020 sent up by truck from california, and set up. Then when it was to wore out to even operate, they took care of getting it out and the loner remanned 3016 with 88 control put in (which we ended up buying also). Then when our new 4020 with 32mp control came they took care of getting it in also. They did take care of getting every thing in and up and running, but the down time over the eight months of the 104/d combined with sending us a totally wore out loner (the z axis ways were so bad the table would not sweep in the range of my interapid indicator!! .060"!!!) left a very very sour taste in our mouths!!!!

Mark

As promised, I said I would let you all know what my outcome was with Fadal.

In short, they made everything right. So much so, that I ended up buying a another Fadal (a 4525) which is making chips as I speak. They are in the process of swapping out the 104/D control today on our 6030, so it should be running in another day or two.

I must say, that despite their enormous blunder, they bent over backwards to make things right with us. In fact, I had made up my mind to switch to Haas, but Fadal went "above and beyond" to make things right, so I'm giving them another chance.

I know that their profits are going to take a hit to pay for their 104D mistake, but if they treat everyone right - like they treated me - we'll still be buying Fadal's years down the road.

People (and companies) will make mistakes; it's how they react after the mistake that determines their worth. And as far as I'm concerned, Fadal has done a commendable job in that department.

Nice to hear, thanks for the followup.

Not to defend managers, but no manager wrote all that bad code. Someone was a hack, and either the managers didn't know it or made it worse

It dawned on me about two months ago, that this control was doomed from the start. Why? It was based on Windows.

Think about it, we all have problems with Windows running regular desktop applications - a random lock up, files getting corrupt, etc. - and invariably, Windows will release a patch, new drivers or an update to fix it.

So basing a machine's control on Windows may sound like a great idea at first, but in retrospect, if Windows can't run software flawlessly, how can we expect it to run a machine tool?

And what happens when Microsoft finally gets Windows to run correctly? They issue a new Windows (95 to 98... 98 to ME... ME to 2000... 2000 to XP... XP to Vista)

So even in a perfect world, if this control worked properly, 8 years down the road, it's operating system would not be supported... and Fadal would be updating the old machines with new Windows...opening another batch of bugs to be worked out of the controls....

Just thinking out loud... not trying to start anything with anyone.... (chair)

MidfieldJake,

I agree completely! Windows is the wrong operating system for automation, especially high speed automation for the very reasons you stated.
The only thing is, WE ASKED FOR IT! Didn't we... Be honest, you wanted it all to work on your CNC, multi tasking, GUI, Networking, "I" did...
The machine tool builders listen to their customers wants, then design their products to meet that demand. Even Fanuc for the longest time held out against the windows market forces until recently (last 5 years). Now windows is used on the new Fanuc controls. I hope, this is not their downfall as well... As much as I like the interface of our new Fanuc 18i control, using the machine for anything but running CNC programs is a waste of time... It has all the junk that customers wanted: onboard CAM, mouse, networked... It's just a bunch of bells and whistles. I would not use the CAM to make a program with, that's what the PC in the office is for. Anyway I'm just rambling aren't I...

Bill Gates, get out of my CNC!