I have a choice between a ~$27k tool room mill...
and a Fadal 3016L for ~41k....

the problem is All I need it the tool room mill...for now..
If I get the 3016L I will need to run it much longer to pay for it..

I am not in the Machine shop business (guess I am now)
I design and build UAVs.... cutting Delrin, aluminum...

http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/

from the specs the 3016 is 3 times the machine as a tool room...

Has anyone ever wished they got the smaller machine... ?
(silly sounding question) but that is what I am worried about..

I have enough contacts to most likely keep either machine busy till
its paid for, much longer for the 3016

Does anyone here have both, and can tell me how much better the 3016L is than a TM1.. Thanks

Eddie Weeks

if the tool room mill dosn't have a tool changer then that is a major factor... don't know fadals tool room stuff but I would buy the bigger one. although I think that price is a little high(for used, I am assuming). what year is the fadal and what condition?

there is no end to the benifits of a tool changer.

I really don't want to get into the differences between Haas and Fadal but
my choice was a Haas TM-1 with 10 tool changer (7.5 hp, 200 rapid) vs
Factory referbished Fadal 3016L (15 hp, 700 rapid)... 3300 lbs vs 6100 lbs..
There are a lot if differeces... but the price diff is 14K.... is it really that much better. ?
Thanks for the help..

Eddie

how much surface/small bit work you doing? or do you use most your time drilling?


at 100% feedrate
1/2 carbine 2flute drillbit is 5.5 hp (11hp for 4 flute)
3/4 carbine 2flute drill but is 10hp (crazy hp for 4flure hehe)
1inch hss 1flute is 2.6
2inch hss 2flute is 8hp



looking up on some websites that haas is only 4000rpm when the fadal is 7500rpm

with a 1/4 4flute carbine endmill thats 25ipm ver 45ipm +-(2flute 9ver18ipm+-)
or 1/2 4flute carbine endmill 50ipm ver 100ipm+- (2flute would be about the same ipm)

Do you have the work for the fadal to run 12hours day ? if not you can allmost get two of the haas for the same price if you start turning away work :)
just some idea's ,to help i hope..

Those prices look to be NEW machine prices.
For most (not all) of what I use my 4020 for; I would only need a toolroom as well.
I would DEFINATELY get the VMC 1) full enclosure - you can hose the piss out of it with coolant and everything stays IN the machine.
2) You will use the ATC and wonder how you get by without one.
I strongly recomend you spring for the "ridgid tap" feature up front, it will cost extra as an add-on and it is well worth the money.
My 2 cents.

I regret not buying big enough. I have 4020s and wish they were 6030 or 6535.

You'd think a Haas 40 by 20 might be too big for small work, but really, if you put 3 or 4 standard Kurt 6" vises on it, its just the right size :)

Ya Hu
A 4020 looks small when you have a rotary 4th, 2 Kurt 688s and an 8" 3jaw on it as well.

Eddie did you check out the Fadal EMC as well $33k list.

Eddie, I think you have it right when you say, "I am not in the Machine shop business",
and I believe you need to ask yourself if you want to be. Either machine will get your foot in the door, but as a first step, consider if being a machine shop is really what you want to do with your life. The initial cost of the machine is only one factor. After adding rigging, tool holders, vices, perishable tooling, a computer, CAD/CAM software, insurance....add more for an air compressor, a saw, inspection equipment….. and soon you are a machine shop and not a designer and builder of UVAs.
I'm not trying to dissuade you from your purchase to the contrary; machine shop is a nice trade. What I am saying is that regardless of which machine, it is a big expense and requires a lot of time and skill to master. Unless you are careful, you can find yourself tied to a trade which was intended as a minor aspect of your business.
If you decide to move forward, the 3016 would be my choice. Unless things have changed, the 3016 was built on the same iron as the 4020, but with a smaller table and sheet-metal.

I dont think "big" is the issue, as much as capability. For the money difference I wouldent think about the toolroom type machines. The full enclosure and chip auger pays for itself the first day in my opinion. And the castings, ect are bigger heavier.
The "Factory referbished Fadal 3016L" is something I dont know anything about, so not sure where you would be on the price.
I look forward to the day I can get a VF7, its nice to stand in front of a 15' wide machine that you can put 10 688 Kurts on :D
Gary

Always go bigger than you need. Always.

An automatic tool changer is worth it's weight in gold. And an enclosed machine (with flood coolant!) will let you run 3x as fast as you could on an open machine.

well both machines have tool changers..

so the issue is encloser and capability... I am a haas man but learned on the fadals... so this is my advice.... buy the fadal.. its a good machine and an enclsure and a fully capable mill is much better than a toolroom mill.

don't limit yourself with the toolroom go the full cnc rout.

like stated previously those look like new machine prices, wouldn't touch a used machine of either model (no matter the condition) for those prices.

pretty much everone one here has said the same thing... buy the bigger badder machine.... so if you go with the tool room mill.... I wont say any more :P

I am in a similar position. I make bike parts and we were outsourcing and using a manual machine. I was absoutely confused as to all the options out there. Since we're a pretty small outfit, anything we spent was "real money" instead of some big corporation accounting office cutting a check.

We first looked at the Haas Mini Mill and Fadal EMC. Between the two I preferred the Fadal for a bigger changer, more Z, more RPM and about the same price. Then I started thinking we only really NEED a toolroom mill, slower spindle and rapids, un-enclosed, but it is full CNC and would do everything we needed.

Fastforward to a few months ago... as a stepping stone we got a Bridgeport and upgraded to a PC based control. What have I learned from that?

I *really* want an enclosed machine. Running coolant on an open machine is a pain in the butt. It goes everywhere and you will be inclined not to use it, which means you go through more tools, suffer a worse finish, and take longer to machine.

I really *really* *REALLY* want a toolchanger. The bigger the better! Manual changes are a PITA and I can already think of 10 "standard" tools I'd want in the carousel. Add in 5 or 7 special tools for a given job, and I only have a few tools left. I would not want less than a 15+ tool changer.

I thought I would be happy with the lower rapids, but I am not! The Bridgeport rapids about 70IPM. I am DREAMING of 700 inch rapids and a higher RPM spindle. The time it takes to make a part is a night and day difference. I drool over the 3500+IPM rapids on some high end stuff. I see the 15kRPM spindles on the big machines blasting through aluminum and I recall my machine whittling away at a snails pace.

Now instead of thinking of the toolroom mills, I am thinking of spending the money I would have spent on an EMC on a slightly used 3016 instead.

Only you can say whether you have enough work to make use of the bigger faster machine, but I DO know that there is a BIG difference between 200 and 700IPM rapids, especially when you're cutting a 3D contour. The tool changer can never be big enough, and an enclosed machine would be a HUGE bonus. If you think you can swing the 3016 I would go that route.

Just remember that a smaller CNC is faster than a big one.
4020 rapid at 700 (at least)
6030 rapid at 400

IMO, when you want to upgrade your CNC with a newer control (after it's paid for itself), you're stuck with the limits of the big CNC. Big CNC machines are slow by comparison. You will pay every day in speed, to have that extra travel. Of course if you need travel, no choice...

Actually I think that fastturbovet, hit it on the head. He found out quick just how valuable the tool changer and enclosures are. When you start out making your own parts you can go from 0 to oh my god in the blink of a eye. All of a sudden all the options you didn't think you needed are now must haves.
Also big is not necessarily slow, the latest VF4 has 50 inches of X and 1000 inch rapids.
Gary

Just remember that a smaller CNC is faster than a big one.
4020 rapid at 700 (at least)
6030 rapid at 400

IMO, when you want to upgrade your CNC with a newer control (after it's paid for itself), you're stuck with the limits of the big CNC. Big CNC machines are slow by comparison. You will pay every day in speed, to have that extra travel. Of course if you need travel, no choice...


The 6535 is 900 IPM on XY, 700 IPM on Z, and I believe there is an option for either 1000 or 1200 IPM rapids. There are many large machines that have blazing speeds, both rapid and interpolated.

The 6535 is 900 IPM on XY, 700 IPM on Z, and I believe there is an option for either 1000 or 1200 IPM rapids. There are many large machines that have blazing speeds, both rapid and interpolated.

Every big fadal we have is 400" max, programmable to 250, and no way can that be done except for straight - NO contour motion. Believe me! Anyone Regret getting large machine? (Original question in this thread).

We do, on every single production job we have to set up on these big dogs (by comparision). With big travel machines, Chip to Chip Tool changes are way longer than smaller machine. One 80/30 is more than 10 years old, was purchased with glass scales and to this day, one axis does not work. Most of the time the scales have to be unplugged. Try to maintain calibration on the ballscrew pitch error compensation on a big machine, then have to unplug the scale, and try to make good parts. With the scale plugged in the axis goes into an uncontrolable vibration loop. IMO, smaller travel machines don't need scales, encoders are more reliable.

Cadman, you can't be referring to a Fadal having blazing speed, IMO...
I have never seen it, and I have been working on this brand for close to 20 years. I have had Fadal do test cuts on their new CNC at their best feed rates and they did not make good parts! What is the point of claimed high feedrate performance, yet not be able to hold reasonable tolerances. Oh, that is my point...

I want to thank everyone very very much... You know, there are some
things I have a lot of experence with, but when it comes to mill work
I am just not that exerenced... You can't put a $$$ value on good advise..
Thanks again for everyone spending the time to type all that info some of you took a life time to get...

There is no question I am getting the 3016L... Even though I have to borrow more money. My best friend who owns / runs a machine shop, said he could keep me busy
no problem..

One thing.. I measured my shop and the 3016 did not fit too well... So I just finished takeing out a wall... hahah

Attached is pic of the wall.. Thanks again for the help.

Eddie Weeks
http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/

You measured before the truck and forklift was there? Nice, I'm usually still looking at the brochure's at that time. Keep the demolition pics coming, I like to see stuff tore up! :D
Gary

Every big fadal we have is 400" max, programmable to 250, and no way can that be done except for straight - NO contour motion. Believe me! ...

It should have been obvious those were speeds for rapid travel on the 6535, if it wasn't, thats what they are. And they are correct. The performance models are also faster than the standard models in interpolated feeds. One of my former employers has 14 of them, so I know thats a fact.

The 8030 is a dog. If I needed a machining center with those travels I would look elsewhere.


[/QUOTE]Cadman, you can't be referring to a Fadal having blazing speed, IMO......[/QUOTE]

Read my reply again. I said there are many large machines that have blazing speeds. I didn't say Fadal.

Just so people know what kind of feeds machines are capable of, I was once in the market for a 5 axis router and had the chance to see many in action and I have a pile of quotes for machines with their specs. Here is one:

Quintax Q5H 5 axis router
5' x 10' x 42" xyz travels
feedrates: 800 ipm xyz, 90 deg/sec bc
rapids: xyz 1000 ipm, 180 deg/sec bc


CM

I agree get the 3016 the enclosure/capacity/tool changer and all the other features would be sorely missed with a tool room mill. If your not in production a 400ipm on a large machine wont matter a whole lot.

Just an update... With the help of some more experenced people here
on CNC zone.... I have finished a few jobs with the 3016. First pic.. lots of soft (1018) jaws for a friend of mine.

Now I have some time to work on VTOL air planes, like in the second pic.

Hi Eddie, I enjoyed your website, particularly the DC10. Amazing work!

For those of us not involved in model aircraft (or in your case, slightly undersize real aircraft) could you please tell us what is a UOV and a VTOL? vertical take off .....??

A UAV is (unmaned airial vihicle)
with VTOL (vertical take off and landing).

Thanks... You know as large as the DC-10 is.. Its only 60 lbs.. no fuel.. 72 full
Building the plane is not hard.. Building it so it does not weigh 200 lbs and still
strong enough... takes lots of testing of materials and calculation...

We have an 8030, two 6030s, and a 4020 VMC. We're considering replacing the 4020 with the New Fadal EMC for speed. We machine 90% aluminum, so these machines are fine, but, we are planning to start machining lots of heavy steel weldments and castings that would be best suited for a geared head, cat 50 spindle machine. It depends on your production trend. We need the 80" travel, and I could have used more for some jobs. If your part sizes are always small it's not an issue, but if you forsee long parts in the future, buy big. It's better than picking up points and moving your part down the table.