Hey guys,

I did not exactly know where to place this so here goes. How many of you use a dust collector (not at the router) but in the general area your working in. I was wondering how loud they are....like this one:

1 HP Mini Dust Collector (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=36853)

I am using a shop vac and its loud, combine that with the router and the bit cutting in the materal its "baby waking noise." Not good when she has just gone to sleep and the wife says "its quite time" :nono:

I assume many of you might of just made your own? Worth it? Yes, No? Stick with the vacuume close to the router?

taus

I've been thinking of getting one like that too. My Shop-Vac is far too loud as well.

I've never heard these run, are they much quieter?

My dust collector is about 1/2-3/4 as load as a shop vac, but it's not as irritating as a shop vac.

Gerry,

Which one do you have? Is it just in the corner "collecting dust" :D

taus

Similar to this one, but I've had it for at least 8-10 years.
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00921336000

I don't use it on a CNC, since I can't find the time to finish mine. Most of the time it's hooked up to my table saw, but I also use it for my planer, jointer, and disc/belt sander. I plan on using it for the CNC when I get it done, and getting a bigger one for my other tools.

Im glad you posted this question, This is something I have been wondering about also.

I dont think there is any such thing as a quiet dust collector...

The only quiet dust collector is the one that is outside as far as my experience goes..

As for the shop vac.. I would think that just building a simple plywood shell around it like a dog house will get rid of ~60% of the noises that bother you the most.. (high frequency)..

Murphy

I've got one of the Jet model DC650 as in 650 cfm. Had it for about 5 years now. Bought it off ebay for about 100 bucks. Works great, very quiet. Use it for 1 machine at a time only though as the cfm are not up to snuff for multi machine purposes. I can still hear the radio over it when it is running and carry on a conversation. Only problem it has is that the bags fill up quickly as they are quite small. This is only a problem when planing lots of stuff.

Get a unit with verticle bags, not horizontal as shown. Everytime you go to empty that one you mention, I got to beleive that it will probably dump alot of dust out of the bag as you open it.

Dan

To cut down noise I put a speed control on a regular vac for the CNC router. I just set it to the slowest speed that works. Different bits = different speeds. The sound's volume difference is amazing.

A good idea posted by Balsaman (I think?) was to use a clothes dryer blower, high enough volume of air moved at quiet noise levels to work with a small homebrew CNC.

Regarding that Harbor Freight dust collector. I have the equivalent they sold a dozen years ago. It is much quieter than a shop vac. I use it for a plane, molder and stationary sanders. Still going too, I am pleasantly surprised since HF tends to use cheap motors.

These small-shop dust collectors post their volume (cubic feet / minute) but are quiet about the amount of vacuum (inches of water) the collectors pull. They don't pull squat compared to a shop or house vac. They can move a lot of chips but can barely pull a coin off the floor. Throttling one from 4 inches to a two inch shop vac hose gives disappointing results, decreased volume does not give a matching increase in suction.

I vent all dust and chips behind my shop, no dust bags. This GREATLY improves performance. Do the same for the whole house vac; vent it into a screen cage so pet hair isn't broadcast everywhere. The lack of a filter or bag makes a world of difference in suction. Put a cyclonic separator in front of the vac to keep crud out of the impeller, or use a Kirby which, like a dust collector, is designed to pull the dust through the impeller.

Picture of simple home-made cyclonic separator here, page bottom. http://solsylva.com/cnc/9acnc54.html

Here is a site with many SURPLUS BLOWERS (http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2005050302570109&catname=electric&keyword=EBSA) and motors, etc.

Update: As I look more one might as well buy the HF mini dust collector. You could always build a small table for it and mount it on the side so the bag hang down.

taus

I have (from cnc router) attached a vacuum hose which goes to a 3 inch pipe which routes to another area. The PVC goes out the wall into a "sealed" wood box that has a small canistor vac inside with NO vacuum bags.

All the dust and chips are sucked into the wooden box but they have to strike a pan full of water first. The entrance area is focused straight at a pan of water.

The water captures stuff before it can reach the canistor vacuum directly.

The canistor vac is exhaust leaves this box via a pipe which also has a PVC around it for more sound buffering which also keeps noise down. This works very well..it is not good enough for using at night in a house full of sleeping people however it is (guessing) 60-80% better than a vac without a wooden box...hope that was of some use.

just an idea for the noise ...... the room i play my music in is a room inside a room theres like a 6 in gap between walls now if you took your vac and put in a box in a box it might help the biggest thing i have come to learn on sound proofing is it need to be in an air tight box sound can sneak out of a slit as small as 1/16 in .... build your box for your vac seal with silicone between each board before you screw/nail em then drop in bigger box again seal with silicone and if poss. make sure your hole for you hose is sealed also

I have been toying with the idea of buying this one:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00064NGSS/103-6498900-3710258

All you have to do is add a metal trash can and you have a separator with a canister filter. The unit can be further improved by changing the filter out for a HEPA canister.

I have been toying with the idea of buying this one:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00064NGSS/103-6498900-3710258

All you have to do is add a metal trash can and you have a separator with a canister filter. The unit can be further improved by changing the filter out for a HEPA canister.

That is pretty slick...but it is not too cheap!

You're right, it's not cheap, but the filter bags that come on most dust collectors are good down to 30 microns if you're lucky. You can buy bags that will filter down to 5 or even 1 micron, but don't believe the hype. A bag is no substitute for a real canister filter. You really do get what you pay for with them.

If you get one of the vertical "two bag" style dust collectors with a canister filter on top and a bag on the bottom, expect to pay a minimum of $450-$500 for an 1100 to 1200 CFM model. The filters Jet and Delta use are good down to 2 microns.

The little one that I linked to is "only" 650 CFM, but that is more than sufficient for a single machine. Also, it's a two-stage rather than a single stage.

The main improvement of a two-stage collector over a single stage model is that in a single stage model, all of the heavy particulate matter slams into the filter before dropping into the bag, significantly reducing the useful life of the filter. The two-stage design allows the large particles to land in the bucket while only the really fine dust goes into the filter.

Hey guys, you have some great ideas and, some greater questions. Why not bring them over to my new thread, Dust Control, and maybe we'll get it worked out to everones advantage Thanks. (group)

OK here's a solution for the noise issue. I've just purchaced a muffler for my shop vac, an old Sears unit. This muffler attatches to the exhaust port and cuts the noise level 50% or more. It really works I got it on mine right now. Cost for this was $19.95 plus $5.95 shpg.
Availible through Hartvilletools.com. I hope this will help tauscnc, Java Dog and ger21. There is also a muffler for the 4-5" hosers for $79.00 plus shpg. Good luck.

The main thing to rember about dust collectors is that none, repeat, none of them remove the harmful dust from the air. I use a Delta 1200 for my shaper, table saw and planer and it is outside the shop. For thr miter saw I have a 858 CFM attic vent fan mounted in the wall and it vents outside. For the late I have a 30' wall mounted fan that vents outside. You can see these and other tips on my site www.turningaround.org .

I joined this group because I want to build a version of the Legacy Ornimental Mill that will handle 20" by 10' using electronic geared master and slave motors. Actuallly it would be a one axis machine using the slave to move the router horvinialy and the master to rotate the stock. There is so much information on this site I don't know where to start.

[QUOTE=Art Ransom] For the late I have a 30' wall mounted fan that vents outside. You can see these and other tips on my site www.turningaround.org .


WOW! must be a big shop.......... ;)

Try a sho-pro. They're yellow. cost more than a shop vac but much much quieter.

Felder makes the best quality home shop woodworking machines i've seen.

http://www.felderusa.com/

they have a home shop size dust collector. I've never bothered to learn the finer points of the technology, but if its in keeping with their other equipment it would be first class (although the do know how to charge) worth checking out?

I really like my Fein shop vac. Makes less noise than my Makita router. I've run mine 8 to 10 hours at a time without issue.

http://www.feinus.com/p/newdustfree/New-911.htm

Tim

How many people use cyclonic dust separators, how good are they? I have looked at many commercial web sites for these and in principle they do seem quite neat.

Some are quoted to separate quite small particles of dust,

mmmm, may try to build one of these baby's.

Re: cyclonic separator.
As posted previously on this thread I have a cheap and dirty homebrew that works reasonably well. It was primarily installed to protect the impeller of the vacuum motor without the restriction of a dust filter. It does let some fine dust through so venting it into the shop without a filter would not be wise, but a filter somewhat defeats the purpose.

They can be built to remove an incredible amount of the fine dust but the calculations become complex and the speeds of the air flow have to be kept within a specified range.

It is easy to make one that works well enough to not let anything beyond fine dust get drawn through the impeller. There are even trash can lids sold that claim to convert a can into a cyclonic separator but in my experience if there is no trap at the bottom of the cyclone, more of the dust will make it through the unit.
I've made long skinny ones and short fat ones and have not seen a lot of difference in performance. They all keep hardware from making its way into the impeller and catch the majority of the dust, but again mine are vented to outside air.

Plans for a cyclonic dust collector are available from on the web. I downloaded one a few years ago for about $10, but never built it. Similar (if not identical) plans are available from: http://store.woodstore.net/cycduscol.html.

I never got around to building it for my wood shop -- I just used the "normal" type of collector. But I think I might need to build one for my metal shop. Stringy chips won't make it through the impeller of a flow through dust collector. I would expect the cyclonic collector to do just fine.

Ken

http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

Here is a link to a pretty thorough discussion about dust collection. The transparent cyclones look pretty cool too.

The site's general idea is: It does not take much to make a vac system that rids the shop of dust when the vac is vented to outside air. Inside venting is a completely different story and there are no non-commercial systems that meet health standards.

David thanks for that link, very good site. I read the medical section and while its not good news, it is well presented and consistent with other things i've read - I agree with his point that this is a serious safety issue and the typical home shop solution is next to useless, it might collect the chips but its not keeping the dust out of your lungs.

Well, I actually bought the Jet 2-stage dust collector that I linked to above. In short, I love it!

I spoke with a friend of mine who is in the air filtration business. His take on shop equipment is that people expect dust collectors to be complete filtration systems. They're not! You need to have an air filter like this to complement your dust collector: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004R9LO

Only with the two devices together can you hope to keep dust out of the air.

yeah but according Bill Pentz's site (who seems like he knows what he's talking about) those devices take up to 6 hours to clear the dust - ie they are not sufficient volume to do it in real time.

I was reading more of the site and the only readymade solution that keeps interior venting to industry air standards are Felder's. On one hand 2500 - 3500 US is rich, on the hand, how much would you pay to avoid lung disease?

Keep in mind that there is a huge difference in the amount of dust a home hobbiest creates and that found in a professional woodshop. I have read through Pentz' site previously and found a lot of it to be portrayed in "shock and awe" manner.

The bottom line is that you will never get rid of all the dust at the source. With thousands of dollars invested in dust collectors you can get close, but it will never be 100%. The air filters are just another tool in the battle against dust.

If you really want to prevent inhalation of dust, get a good dust mask.

the commercial shops are vented outside though so its not a fair comparison - his point is that a home shop indoors is 10000x worse the commercial because of this difference. I really can't say whether he's right or not, or whether he's going for the shock value, but I have heard similair from other knowledgables - that doesn't make it so, but makes one think.

Its academic for me for the time being, the limited wood work i do is mostly by hand pending in a increase in space permiting a whole new set of machines, but i do find it interesting because there is such a huge gap between common practice and what (at least some) people are saying is a safe level.

As far as collecting dust goes, part of the problem is the suction of the dust collector. A larger issue is the area that you are collecting dust from. You need to have appropriate inlets that will attract as much dust as possible.

For example, when I use my contractor-style table saw, dust can either go up or down. The bottom has a dust collection port, but the open base doesn't exactly direct the particulate in the right direction. The collector works through raw power rather than being efficient. To further exacerbate the collection issue, the blade guard does not have any collection mechanism at all. Any particulate that goes up, stays up. Pentz' site does have some drawings of ideal dust collection inlets at http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Ducting.cfm#Dust%20Ports

I think dust collection has gone the way of automobiles: Raw power is considered before efficiency. It should be the other way around. Make the source (inlet) as efficient as possible, then smaller, less powerful collectors become necessary.

Hi guys, I'm a new user, this is my first post so take it easy....

I did some extensive research on shop vacs, bag DC, and cyclones; I just skipped all those little mini-steps & trouble of upgrading; I think these are the best DC any small shop can have! Check out the Dust Gorilla

http://www.oneida-air.com/products/systems/2hp_super_gorilla/main.htm

for under $900 for 2hp, I think it's a bargin!

I would have to agree with layertone. I have an Oneida-Air system, while it is not the cheapest on the market, it is well built. Also, my previous job was with a large (1200 employees) furniture company. It was there that I met Peter who was the co-founder of Oneida-Air. He was in our factory doing analysis of our existing system, and potential upgrades. With those kinds of credentials, I figured his small shop systems would easily fit my needs (which they do).
As far as the noise from a dust collector, it is easily drown out by the noise of the 2 CNC Routers.

Actually, in terms of noise, your typical 5-6 "Horsepower" 16-gallon shop vacuum will be much louder than the Oneida-Air (I use both, just happen to use the shop vac for my vacuum hold-down)

I tried shop vacs and those off the shelf 2 hp units. I strongly recommend that anyone considering a dust collection system got to Bill Pentz' web site. He has done a lot of research about the medical and engineering aspects of dust collection. He suffers from respiratory damage caused by wood dust received as a HOBBYIST. That motivated him to do his work. I ended up buying a unit made based on his design (he does not sell dust collectors). Oneida and Grizzly now build a cyclone copying Bill's design. I mounted the impeller, cyclone and collection bin outside the shop, with the return filters inside so I would not lose my heated air. I still would not describe it as quiet, most of the noise is from the air movement. Bill recommends 6" ducting, which I used. With only one duct open, it will lift debris off my table saw about 6-8". This really sucks, and in a good way. I put ducting to the underside of my Unisaw, and pretty much eliminated all dust issues. My 18" planer works much better, as does my drum sander. Since I haven't finished my CNC router yet, I can't say how the dust collector will work there, but I don't have any doubts.